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The Jays get to spend this week playing first place teams.


First place teams with leads in their division large enough that they could stand to be swept by the Blue Jays, without causing too much of a problem. Although I've noticed that teams that have built those kind of leads generally did so by not getting swept by anyone. The Brewers were swept by the Phillies just last week, but the Phillies have been kicking a lot of NL butt this year.

First up is the NL Central leading Milwaukee Brewers, formerly of the AL East, when they were regularly a troublesome opponent. Your modern NL Brewers are in the habit of fielding strong teams that generally make it to the post-season and then are quickly dismissed from further competition. I'm sure we can all sympathize. The Brewers have made the post-season in five of the last six seasons (and they went 86-76 the one time they didn't). They made it to the NLCS back in 2018, and fell to the Dodgers in seven games. In 2019, 2020, and 2023 they lost the Wild Card game(s), and in 2021 they lost the NLDS to Atlanta.

The Brewers have recently had to put starters Robert Gasser and Joe Ross on the IL. Bryse Wilson has been moving from the bullpen to the rotation and back, Jared Koenig has been used as an Opener. Neither Wilson nor Freddy Peralta will be available against the Blue Jays - they could very well fall back on Koenig and assorted relievers. The Brewers bullpen is deep and impressive.

Recent Milwaukee teams have generally succeeded by holding the opposition to so few runs that it didn't much matter how inoffensive their own hitters were. Not any more, folks. The Phillies are the only NL team scoring more often than Milwaukee, and at the centre of it all is Christian Yelich, who at age 32 seems to have suddenly recovered his form from five years ago, when he was the 2018 MVP and the 2019 runner-up. Yelich spent the next four seasons hitting .254/.362/.407, and I expect everyone had more or less assumed his days as an elite player were a thing of the past. The only black hole in the lineup is right field, something of a platoon job share with 20 year old Jackson Chourio (.217/.257/.344) and 24 year old Sal Frelick (.256/.336/.332). Frelick is the LH batter. They have some other job shares - Gary Sanchez is the backup catcher; he also shares DH duties with Rhys Hoskins, who in turn shares first base with Jake Bauers.

Matchups

Mon 10 June - Berrios (5-4, 2.80) vs Rea (4-2, 3.53)
Tue 11 June - Kikuchi (3-5, 3.48) vs TBD
Wed 12 June - Bassitt (6-6, 3.80) vs Myers (2-2, 4.15)
Blue Jays at Brewers, June 10-12 | 228 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
John Northey - Monday, June 10 2024 @ 06:59 PM EDT (#447285) #
Game 1's lineup has Schneider-Horwitz-Vlad again. The old 'if it is working, why change' rule. Vogelbach DH, Kirk catching, otherwise pretty much what one would expect with Schneider in LF, Horwitz at 2B (Varsho CF, Springer RF, IKF 3B).
soupman - Monday, June 10 2024 @ 07:11 PM EDT (#447286) #
the athletic poll had a question on which player in baseball is most over-rated. i think it's significant that no blue jay made the list. either people no longer think vlad is a star, or baseball players think the hype is legitimate. those numbers from May-June are about where I expected him to hit the ground on. Still surprised at the lack of dingers, but i think he's had a lot of bad luck with balls that would be out in most parks so far. still, even adding 3-4 HR to his totals...i thought we'd see more carry on his hits. i still think it will 'click' sooner than later.

there's an article or two saying he's being shopped. i've long been an advocate of that because i don't like the leadership qualities he displays. maybe he's much different, but when you hear how everyone talks about judge and the stories you hear about him...i think vlad is the kind of guy that needs someone to keep him in line. i just can't see anyone coming in, not even soto or ohtani, and reigning in the childishness. i think it sucks because i still think he's a top-5 hitter in baseball for the foreseeable future.
Magpie - Monday, June 10 2024 @ 07:23 PM EDT (#447287) #
i don't like the leadership qualities [Guerrero] displays

Everyone's mileage can vary on this, and none of us are in the room. I just don't expect leadership from the youngest guy in that room. That has to come from the guys with some seniority - guys like Turner and Springer - but you can't be a leader if you're not playing well.
greenfrog - Monday, June 10 2024 @ 07:36 PM EDT (#447288) #
Vladdy has been good this year. I donít see any cause for complaint.

Itís Bichette who has been a disappointment in the first half of the season. But I expect him to turn it around at some point this year.
Magpie - Monday, June 10 2024 @ 07:42 PM EDT (#447289) #
I expect [Bichette] to turn it around at some point this year.

Me too, if only because he's hitting just .273 on his BallsInPlay, and his career average was .349 coming into this season. And he puts a lot of balls in play. I'm sure he's frustrated and pressing, which can't be doing his game any good. Bichette is one of those players who looks especially awful when he's struggling.
Nigel - Monday, June 10 2024 @ 07:58 PM EDT (#447290) #
I expect Bo to bounce back because, well, heís established a pretty consistent baseline of very good (not elite) performance. But (and this is hugely subjective) his body language is all kinds of awful these days. I understand being miserable based upon struggles but still Ö. Iím miserable watching him and not from his performance.
uglyone - Monday, June 10 2024 @ 09:03 PM EDT (#447291) #
this feels like a bit of a big series against a good team.
dalimon5 - Monday, June 10 2024 @ 09:05 PM EDT (#447292) #
This team is must watch right now. Season "to be or not to be," is decided in the next 2 weeks imho.
uglyone - Monday, June 10 2024 @ 09:26 PM EDT (#447293) #
missed that Kirk homerun. 110.1mph ev....yeah it's been a long long time since we saw Kirk hit something like that.
greenfrog - Monday, June 10 2024 @ 09:29 PM EDT (#447294) #
The Blue Jays offense is just too easy to shut down. Bichette, Vogelbach and Springer have terrible numbers in the middle of the order ó OPS of around 600 each.
greenfrog - Monday, June 10 2024 @ 09:32 PM EDT (#447295) #
And Kirk is hitting about the same (although he has a home run tonight). Thatís four 600 OPS hitters in the lineup tonight.
uglyone - Monday, June 10 2024 @ 09:38 PM EDT (#447296) #
ugh. escape this with only 1 run allowed and i'll take it.
dalimon5 - Monday, June 10 2024 @ 09:47 PM EDT (#447298) #
Zack Pop limited the damage but Jose Berrios is on my fantasy team. 1 out away from a Quality Start. Terrible managing by Jon Schneider.
uglyone - Monday, June 10 2024 @ 09:48 PM EDT (#447299) #
one run it is.

can the offense do anything against a good team now?
Glevin - Monday, June 10 2024 @ 10:30 PM EDT (#447302) #
Just pathetic again. Making every starter look like an ace. Just weak contact pretty much every PA. I remain baffled as to why Vogelbach is still on the team. It was fine as a shot, it didn't work out, if you want someone who can't hit, at least let them be able to play some D.
greenfrog - Monday, June 10 2024 @ 10:52 PM EDT (#447305) #
Atkins is like, if I canít have the best LHH DH in the game (Ohtani), I may as well go with the worst (Vogelbach).
soupman - Monday, June 10 2024 @ 10:58 PM EDT (#447306) #
I don't expect that either, but I think the quirk of the team being constructed 'around' Vlad and Bo is that they ended up in a position to assume those roles as being the longest tenured there. I think a lot of the qualities i see that give me pause - i would say ambivalence, but I'm perhaps too cynical - like his youthful enthusiasm are a bit of an achilles heel. On one hand I see him constantly enjoying things which seems like a good person to be around, loving the game and his job, yet, I also see that as translating into the mental errors (trying to get that extra bag, trying to distract the pitcher even though he is a terrible base runner, etc.). So, i see him loving the game, but in a way that too often hurts the team. I'm sure his team mates have taken note. He's been around over 5 years now in this league, so if not now, when's he going to learn? I will say this: although I am yelling at the screen nightly about how he moves out of the box...the other errors appear to have diminished over previous years. So...maybe he is turning a corner and I haven't fully registered it yet.

Anyway - you're right to say that our perception is necessarily partial and probably wrong, but those are my observations from the filtered view we are shown, and my interpretation of them

soupman - Monday, June 10 2024 @ 11:05 PM EDT (#447307) #
Vogelbach has the same agent as Jansen, is that a thing? Maybe they are trying to keep Jano happy? I asked a friend and they said he's friends with Bo - so I don't know, but surely it cannot be what we've seen on the field.

It would appear that high-BMI players are not, in fact, a market niche.
SK in NJ - Monday, June 10 2024 @ 11:32 PM EDT (#447308) #
Looking at the schedule for the rest of the month, I see very little chance that the Jays remain a WC threat by the deadline unless the bar for the 3rd WC suddenly becomes 80 wins. They went 7-2 against the White Sox and A's in the past few weeks, so they've been able to hold their heads somewhat above water, but they are not a good team. The best thing that could possibly happen to them at this point is to fall out of it. They still won't rebuild, but at least they'll do a partial sell off. That's better than the alternatives (stand pat or buy).
John Northey - Monday, June 10 2024 @ 11:59 PM EDT (#447309) #
Well, on the good side - Kirk hitting a home run, Vlad having a bat get stuck in the netting was fun to look at and see the players get creative to try to free it (which they eventually did).
scottt - Tuesday, June 11 2024 @ 06:09 AM EDT (#447311) #
Horwitz now leads the team in OPS at .817 (super small sample but I'll take .817 over Barger's .112)
2. Jansen .815
3. Vlad .795 (Has been losing steam)
4. Varsho .757
5. Schneider .735
6. IKF .702
7. Turner .679
8. Bichette .630 (should not be hitting clean up)
10. Kirk .612
11. Clement .604
12. Springer .588 (Yeah, they need a good month out of springer at some point)
13. Vogelbach .577
14. KK .574 (The defense is nice but not useful as all it does is push Varsho to the bench)

dalimon5 - Tuesday, June 11 2024 @ 07:45 AM EDT (#447312) #
Bo and Springer are just killing this team right now. I was joking earlier about Schneider pulling Berrios too early but I would have fired him already to try to get more out of the players. What's the point of changing players like Biggio and Horwitz when you are still batting Bo clean up? He should be way down with Springer and if that means he won't resign with you then oh well.
greenfrog - Tuesday, June 11 2024 @ 07:50 AM EDT (#447313) #
Here is how the Blue Jays offense stacks up against all AL teams (15 teams total):

Runs: 12th
wRC+ 9th
wOBA 10th
BABIP 14th
ISO 13th
SB 10th
BsR 10th

Basically, the Blue Jays are a well-below-average offensive team. It seems unlikely that this will change all that much (maybe adding Horwitz and some regression to the mean from some players will help a bit).
Ducey - Tuesday, June 11 2024 @ 08:40 AM EDT (#447314) #
Vlads bat being stuck in the netting is a nice metaphor for the Jay's offense.

Biggio should be traded by about now?

The need to start resting Vlad. He has played every game.

They need to start "resting" Bo. The notion that he is magically going to find his stroke should be dispelled by now. Send him to Dunedin for a week to the complex. Maybe they can find something in his swing or even better, remind him about the basics of pitch selection.

I'm enjoying watching Horwitz. Hopefully the umps dont break him with their arbitrary strike zones.
scottt - Tuesday, June 11 2024 @ 08:57 AM EDT (#447315) #
if you want someone who can't hit, at least let them be able to play some D.

Which position would you like to see a bench player take?
The correct saying is if someone can't hit, at least they should play good defense.
The team doesn't have many bad defenders. Schneider and Horwitz are hitting.

I suppose they could just DH Horwitz and play Clement, but that really doesn't  move the needle offensively. Especially against a RHP.
electric carrot - Tuesday, June 11 2024 @ 09:03 AM EDT (#447316) #
"They need to start "resting" Bo"

I feel like with Bo his at bats have been fine recently. He's not swinging at too much off the plate and he seems to be hitting a lot of line drives. I think honestly, he's been pretty unlucky. I don't think rest is what he needs.

I do think the quality of Ned Flanders at bats have gone down and he could use some rest.

How has Horowitz looked at 2nd? Anybody notice anything? I am surprised he's playing there.
92-93 - Tuesday, June 11 2024 @ 10:12 AM EDT (#447319) #
Sending Bichette down to Dunedin would be absurd. He hit .293/.318/.451 in the 20 games prior to yesterday.

People are jumping on individual players instead of just recognizing it's a poorly built offense.

If anybody needs to be "rested", it's Springer.
uglyone - Tuesday, June 11 2024 @ 10:58 AM EDT (#447320) #
This is more than just a recent slump for many.


Past 1 Calendar Year:

* 1. Schneider 361pa, 137wrc+
* 2. Jansen 312pa, 136wrc+

big gap

* 3. Guerrero 695pa, 123wrc+
* 4. Turner 575pa, 114wrc+
* 5. Horwitz 56pa, 110wrc+
* 6. Biggio 366pa, 109wrc+
* 7. Vogelbach 253pa, 109wrc+

big gap

* 8. Varsho 547pa, 97wrc+
* 9. Bichette 569pa, 96wrc+
* 10. Clement 165pa, 94wrc+
* 11. Springer 657pa, 93wrc+
* 12. Falefa 425pa, 93wrc+
* 13. Kirk 362pa, 92wrc+

big gap

* 14. Kiermaier 358pa, 76wrc+
John Northey - Tuesday, June 11 2024 @ 11:01 AM EDT (#447321) #
From May 1st to now the Jays are 19th in Runs Scored, 18th in wRC+ (95), 20th in wOBA (299). For defense they are #2 based on FanGraphs method (4.8 vs Yankees at 7.9 - how the heck are the Yankees that high - Trevino & Volpe having career defensive years) the killers on defense for the Jays are Vlad & Turner, Schneider, and Barger - all negative as is Vogelbach (due to being a pure DH).
uglyone - Tuesday, June 11 2024 @ 11:14 AM EDT (#447322) #
but if we look at "recent" streaks:

June

* 1. Varsho 34pa, 160wrc+
* 2. Turner 26pa, 152wrc+
* 3. Guerrero 41pa, 141wrc+

big gap

* 4. Horwitz 12pa, 123wrc+
* 5. Kirk 14pa, 105wrc+

huge gap

* 6. Falefa 37pa, 80wrc+
* 7. Clement 12pa, 53wrc+
* 8. Bichette 40pa, 47wrc+
* 9. Vogelbach 21pa, 41wrc+
* 10. Kiermaier 14pa, 36wrc+
* 11. Jansen 27pa, 25wrc+
* 12. Springer 34pa, 18wrc+
* 13. Schneider 39pa, -1wrc+
* 14. Biggio 3pa, -100wrc+



Last 30 days

* 1. Guerrero 119pa, 150wrc+

big gap

* 2. Horwitz 12pa, 123wrc+
* 3. Bichette 113pa, 112wrc+
* 4. Varsho 98pa, 111wrc+

gap

* 5. Vogelbach 43pa, 102wrc+
* 6. Kirk 38pa, 97wrc+
* 7. Falefa 94pa, 96wrc+

gap

* 8. Jansen 82pa, 84wrc+
* 9. Springer 93pa, 81wrc+
* 10. Biggio 31pa, 77wrc+
* 11. Turner 76pa, 77wrc+
* 12. Schneider 117pa, 70wrc+
* 13. Kiermaier 57pa, 59wrc+
* 14. Clement 46pa, 18wrc+



There's only been two consistently good hitters on the team this year - Vladdy and Varsho.


I know our management hates to shuffle the lineup and prefers to wait for the bounces to even out but i don't know that we have much choice but to try to ride hot streaks for any offense we can get at this point.

I'd probably stick Vladdy at #2 and Varsho at #3, stick Horwitz at leadoff and hope that he can keep up his OBP for a bit....and then...not sure. With Schneider and Jansen gone ice cold i probably stick with Bo and Turner/Vogelbach in the 4 and 5 holes.

Kiermaier has been ice cold for a long while now and may or may not be toast with the bat. It's possible. He's still great to have as a 4th OF, but with our lack of offense and Springer's continued struggles, the Nathan Lukes option would be interesting. I think he could be a league average bat with good defense right now.

none of these options are inspiring of course. but maybe after multiple years of no offense they might try scrapping for every little bit they can instead of just waiting for it to fix itself.
Ducey - Tuesday, June 11 2024 @ 11:27 AM EDT (#447323) #
"Sending Bichette down to Dunedin would be absurd. He hit .293/.318/.451 in the 20 games prior to yesterday."

Last week: 231/286/346
Last 14 days: 192/236/269
Last 28: 263/298/404

Yeah, he is on fire.

Manny Lee (who was never considered a bat first player) lifetime: 255/305/323
Bo this season: 236/284/346

Bo has 27 RBI in 63 games largely hitting cleanup. He is "hitting" 146/180/167 (that slug is not a typo) vs LHP. Ernie is hitting 292/333/417 vs LHP.

So if you dont want him to reset for a week, then maybe Bo should sit vs LHP in favour of Ernie.
92-93 - Tuesday, June 11 2024 @ 11:39 AM EDT (#447324) #
Nobody said he was on fire. You simply don't send down your stars to the development complex when they have been league average hitters over the last 28.
dalimon5 - Tuesday, June 11 2024 @ 11:55 AM EDT (#447325) #
Initially I agreed with 92-93's post but the follow up posts show that it's misleading and Bo is not hitting that well. He can't be in a key spot in the line up when he's scuffling so much.

One thing is for sure when looking at the posted stats here on this board: Springer and Kirk have cratered and are hurting the Jays. Springer is playing like a bench bat and Kirk is playing like a defensive replacement. Combine that with the fact that Varsho and Bo have huge ups and downs throughout the year and you can see that 4 out of your 6 best assets with the bat are holding you back.

100% this offense was not constructed well. I heard on the radio that the Jays have 1 win when scoring less than 2 runs but are almost undefeated when scoring 5 or more runs. What this team needs more than ever is a proper clean up hitter to let things fall into place.


Horwitz 2B
Bichette SS
Vlad 1B
Clean Up Hitter via trade DH (Trout or Alonso)
Jansen C
Schneider LF
Varsho CF
Kiner Falefa 3B
Springer RF

Bench: Clement, KK, Kirk, Turner, Vogelbach


Takeaways - off season was a failure as no middle order bat was acquired and the contract to Justin Turner is now a big one for a bench bat to spell the regulars.
Nigel - Tuesday, June 11 2024 @ 11:56 AM EDT (#447326) #
What I am about to say definitely wonít be popular if your mindset is ďthe Jays are only x games out of the 3rd WC spotĒ. Iím not there. I donít think this team is particularly good and that the worst possible outcome of this season is 84 wins and being ďonly x games outĒ all year. I fear another ďdo nothingĒ offseason. So, Iím in favour of riding your horses. Avoid the tweaks of trying to bring up say a Lukes. I totally understand the logic behind such a move and itís entirely logical. But Lukes isnít really an answer to making this team fundamentally better. So play all the vets. A major reversion to the mean from the core group is the only hope of the team being actually competitive anyway. Plus, that way one or two of the core may well play themselves into being valuable trade chips. In other words, if they canít win I hope that every game is a Kiikutchi shut out through 6 innings and a KK HR in a 2-1 loss. Roll the dice on 90+ wins or 76 wins. Pray against 84 wins.
uglyone - Tuesday, June 11 2024 @ 12:27 PM EDT (#447327) #
If there's a difference between "offense isn't not constructed well" and "offense doesn't have enough good hitters" then i definitely believe the 2nd one is the issue over the first.
dalimon5 - Tuesday, June 11 2024 @ 12:34 PM EDT (#447328) #
Nigel,

What about the "AA" option? Why can't this front office trade some prospects for a bat between now and the deadline? They clearly have a strong bullpen and stronger rotation. They are missing the offense and one player can make a big difference.

Is Orelvis Martinez the the answer to replace Bo in 2026? Likely not. Trade him and his huge power in the minors for an asset now. Is Adam Macko and his high strikeout rate worth something to a rebuilding team? Yes. Trade him now. The farm is not a top system but there are still enough pieces there to get you a strong bat at the deadline.

Is Ricky Tiedeman really needed for 2025 and 2026? In an ideal world yes he can replace Kikuchi but he can also be used to get you a middle of the order bat now.

In an ideal world, to me, Atkins "AA's" this situation and does the following:

1. Trade for Alonso and give up Martinez but not Tiedeman.
2. Trade for a bullpen arm.
3. Resign Vlad and Kikuchi so fair market deals

I'd really prefer they take on Mike Trout's salary and play him at DH and LF because he's be pretty cheap if they take on all of his contract. I'd give up Martinez, Tiedeman and another 2 prospects for Trout if the Angels helped to eat that salary. Get it to a point where Trout is paid less than 20 million per year by the Jays and the Angels pay the rest. You'd probably have a better chance re-signing Kikuchi, Vlad and Bo if they made this splashy move anyways.
John Northey - Tuesday, June 11 2024 @ 12:51 PM EDT (#447329) #
Agreed uglyone - this team just seems a few hitters short.
  • DH: 19th in wRC+ at 91 (Reds at 43 are a LOT worse). May 1st to now though...55 wRC+ (yikes!!!!) but the Cubs are at 14, Red Sox 25, and Reds 36. So this area isn't getting better. Turner in that stretch has a 44 wRC+, Vogelbach 75, and no one else is listed. However, June 1st to now Turner is at 152, Vogelbach 41. Clearly May was Turner's downfall (wRC+ by month 153-9-152, it is well known he was sick with whatever shot through the Jays clubhouse in May and should've been on the IL then). For June the Jays are 13th for wRC+ at DH. Clearly Vogelbach is near the end, and losing him wouldn't hurt at all. He had a brief uptick in May (97 wRC+) but that's it and even that wasn't impressive for a pure bat. There has to be a better option.
  • June: 73 wRC+ 25th in MLB. Ugh. Over 100: Varsho, Turner, Vlad (140+ all), Horwitz (123), and Kirk (105). IKF is at 80 this month, then the ugly - Clement (53), Bo (47), Vogelbach (41), Kiermaier (36), Jansen (25), Springer (18), Schneider (-1), Biggio (-100 and gone). Time to move Schneider down a bit in the order and bring Varsho back up. Springer is looking very toasty. Jansen ... sigh.
Those are the big issues that jumped at me. Jansen off to a poor start in June, but was hitting well before and has a solid track record but needs to be watched. Schneider is similar (wonder if leading off is putting too much pressure on him). Bo and Springer are the nightmares - both seem healthy and you can't really bench them but damn does one want to right now. Orelvis Martinez in AAA has a 114 wRC+, Barger 127, Jimenez 126, Lukes 133 - all solid figures but given how much weaker AAA seems now vs the past I wouldn't expect a 100 wRC+ from any of them given a shot. Will Robertson was off to a hot start but now is down to a 90 wRC+. Votto still on the IL. So no real help sitting in AAA screaming 'call me up' imo - they might outhit Springer, and Vogelbach but not by much right now.

So trades are next - but who to trade? Are there free agents still handing around begging for work? Well, yes, in the person of Brandon Belt for example but for some reason the Jays seem very cool to signing him.
soupman - Tuesday, June 11 2024 @ 12:52 PM EDT (#447330) #
We saw last year the Angels double down at the deadline for nothing. I think they need to reckon with what they are and blow it up. I'm interested to see what they do. If they again do something weird, or nothing...that will need a lot of explaining.

...I think the Jays should go after Trout. I can't see them moving him at the deadline, though. I think betting on him having a decent second half would rebuild some value and show health, and also you can sell tickets to fans if you let them know 'he is tired of losing' or otherwise signal that this might be their last chance to see him.
John Northey - Tuesday, June 11 2024 @ 12:58 PM EDT (#447331) #
dalimon5 - oh that Trout option... damn would that be sweet. Send them Springer to eat up some of the contract spread (about $50 mil plus whatever is left on this year) but Trout is owed $222.7 mil after this year for ages 33-37 - that is the type of deal that can REALLY bite you hard given he last played 141+ games in 2016, 100+ just once since 2019 (2022 at 119 games). Can he move to RF? Probably. If we dumped Springer in the deal that could work out nicely for 2024/25 and maybe 26 but 27-30 (ages 35-38)? Who knows, but he could end up toasty like Springer has. Plus, of course, Trout has no-trade protection as a 10+ year veteran. Maybe with some prospects going back and forth - they send us a couple decent ones, we send them a few weaker ones, in an effort to make it look better for both teams. Still, I don't see it happening.
dalimon5 - Tuesday, June 11 2024 @ 01:07 PM EDT (#447332) #
Trout is the type of player who you make concessions for. Trout playing for 1/4 season is more valuable than most of the players already on this line up and in a few years he should be a pure DH to lengthen his career.
uglyone - Tuesday, June 11 2024 @ 01:10 PM EDT (#447333) #
it would definitely be a good time to sell on our prospects if you can get any value out of them because there isn't a single one that I can look at right now and get legitimately excited about.
Ducey - Tuesday, June 11 2024 @ 01:24 PM EDT (#447334) #
Mr. 5 is always after the big name.

Trout would be a mistake.

Here are his games played the last few years:

2020 53 games - *Covid shortened
2021 36
2022 119
2023 82
2024 29 of about 66

He is turning 33 in AUG.

He just had knee surgery and is not expected back until July/ August.

He is owed $37M a year for the next 6 years after this season. His OPS+ has come down from the 180's to 131 last year and 140 this year.

Plus there would be the penalties under the CBT.

You give up a boatload of prospects to watch Trout sit in the dugout and age out, it would be a poor move - especially given this team's window (due to the contract situation) is pretty much this year and next.

You just dig a hole that will be that much deeper to rebuild from.

Anyway, he has a no trade clause. He has made it clear he does not want to leave Anaheim. Him coming to TOR when they are in last place in the AL East is Fantasy Island stuff.


soupman - Tuesday, June 11 2024 @ 01:32 PM EDT (#447336) #
The Dodgers gave 700m to a guy that has 1 season with more than 23 starts and is recovering from his second UCL injury and will be 30 in less than a month. That's a lot of money for a DH that may never pitch effectively again.

The Jays nearly paid that. So I'm not convinced the MLB penalties for salary are as big of a concern. I also think the Jays can assume less financial risk by letting more prospects out the door.

And saying something is "fantasy island stuff" when there are stories about Trout as a trade target in the New York Times is a bit condescending to the 'paper of record'.
dalimon5 - Tuesday, June 11 2024 @ 01:47 PM EDT (#447337) #
Not to mention the fact that nobody is advocating to acquire a player with Mike Trout's injury history to pay him 37 million a year. If you go back and read the comments the suggestion is to use prospect capital to lower the annual cost on Mike Trout's salary. John had an even better idea of packaging Springer in the deal with the prospects.

It's not complicated to imagine this scenario, Ducey. I actually think it takes more time and effort to lazily look at a stat line and declare Mike Trout is done and is a mistake. Here are the injuries Mike Trout has dealt with for those too lazy to do the research:

2-3 months - Torn Meniscus 2024 (was leading league in HRs)
2-3 months - Fractured Hamate Bone 2023
5 Weeks - Rare Back Disorder 2022 (still hit 40 home runs)
36 games - Strained calf muscle 2021

Nobody knows how he tore his meniscus this year but he started stealing bases at a 36 or more SB clip this year. The other two injuries are either extremely rare like Aaron Judge's foot disorder or came from being hit by a pitch or foul ball. The only avoidable injuries are a strained calf muscle and torn meniscus. I bet if he isn't running around CF all day and stealing bases every other game he can be healthy enough to hit you 40+ home runs every year.
greenfrog - Tuesday, June 11 2024 @ 01:57 PM EDT (#447338) #
I would love for the Blue Jays to have Trout for 2024-2025. I think he'll be a major liability after that.

Ohtani is three years younger than Trout. I don't think the Ohtani contract is going to age especially well, but he should be a very good hitter for at least the next few years. I wouldn't want the Blue Jays to take on the last five contractual years of either player.
85bluejay - Tuesday, June 11 2024 @ 02:12 PM EDT (#447339) #
I think the jays acquiring Trout would set the franchise back years - IF Trout were to move it would be to a legitimate WS contender, not some suspect .500 team that will need a miracle just to get the 3rd WC.
greenfrog - Tuesday, June 11 2024 @ 02:20 PM EDT (#447340) #
Pederson has a 150 wRC+ this year. That is a lot higher than anyone on the Blue Jays (Jansen is best on the team with a 133 wRC+). Turner is at 97 and Vogelbach is at 70.

That was a significant missed opportunity for Toronto. Atkins did try to sign him, though.
85bluejay - Tuesday, June 11 2024 @ 02:21 PM EDT (#447341) #
I wonder if the Phillies would be interested in Danny Jansen to hold the fort and provide insurance while Realmuto is out.
Mike Green - Tuesday, June 11 2024 @ 02:24 PM EDT (#447342) #
ZiPS projects that this club will have an above-average offence and defence, if the correct players are in the lineup in descending order of projected wRC+ (VGJ, Jansen, Bichette, Schneider, Varsho, Horwitz, Kirk, Springer, Kiermaier, Kiner-Falefa).  Only Kiermaier and Kiner-Falefa are projected to be below-average and they more than make up for it on defence.  The key is to make Kirk one's regular catcher and Jansen the backup and 50%/60% DH.  Turner and Vogelbach would be best used as role players getting 1-2 starts per week with the platoon advantage if everyone is healthy.  Clement is a fine back-up infielder and platoon mate for Horwitz. 

The starting pitching does not need shoring up with the reappearance of Francis, Tiedemann, Rodriguez and the development of Macko as a deep back-up option.  The relief pitching is a mess.  Yimi Garcia is very good.  Chad Green is good.  And they're missing two pitchers to handle important work.  That is the one area where the GM has definitively fallen short during the season.  Mayza, Swanson and Romano have all contributed less than hoped for, and they need to find a replacement.  We think the issue is scoring runs, which is true to an extent, but there are two factors to consider- one the position players are weighted to defence and that makes the pitchers look better than they actually are.  And secondly, the hitting is expected to noticeably improve, not just by fans. 

To sum up, my prescription: take two relief pitchers and see me in the morning. 


soupman - Tuesday, June 11 2024 @ 02:39 PM EDT (#447343) #
To me Trout is in rarified air. The guys that good have such a high peak that they appear to defy the aging curve. Look at the age 36 seasons for any of Griffey, Mantle, Mays...heck Trout had 10HR in the first month on a .194 babip, and 6 steals to boot.
Magpie - Tuesday, June 11 2024 @ 02:47 PM EDT (#447344) #
I think Atkins might be wise to consider what Anthopoulos did in 2014. He looked at his team and said no, this group isnít going anywhere and itís not worth spending anything on them.

Which will be a drag, but thatís the way it goes sometimes. Sometimes good players have bad years.
dalimon5 - Tuesday, June 11 2024 @ 02:59 PM EDT (#447345) #
Yeah it's apparent some on here want to manage the baseball team like a stock company where they think you can have some of the best players at fair market value or less and avoid overpaying in declining years...similar to The Rays, Guardians and the rest of baseball that doesn't have the ability of those two franchises to do it successfully.

Do you think the Yankees care that Judge will be overpayed at the end of his deal? Do you think they care that they will lose money and overpay if they sign Soto? This team is way closer than most want to admit and there has been NOBODY who has posted why or how a team can compete without overpaying for star players. Citing Baltimore or Houston or Cleveland or TB as examples as many have in the past is useless. You basically have two options, pay and overpay and compete or ...save money, don't overspend and don't compete. Posters pretending that you can buy a home in Rosedale for the price of building materials only are out of touch.

If you're going to complain about Trout being an anchor in the future then you're a hypocrite to complain about the current team not being good enough this year. Here's my question to you...why would selling off the team be any better than overpaying for performance and how would it turn out better than the last time when this team sold off and waited for "the core" to emerge?
dalimon5 - Tuesday, June 11 2024 @ 03:10 PM EDT (#447346) #
Best rotation we will likely see for another 20+ years ...
greenfrog - Tuesday, June 11 2024 @ 03:15 PM EDT (#447347) #
I doubt LAA wants anyone in the Blue Jays farm system.
John Northey - Tuesday, June 11 2024 @ 03:16 PM EDT (#447348) #
Trout would be fun, but realistically he isn't on the market - he has that no-trade clause and I can't see him agreeing to come here unless Vlad or someone else has done an amazing job selling him on the team being far better than it seems and that he would be the last piece needed. Otherwise he'll wait for a deal to be made with the Dodgers, Yankees, Phillies, Red Sox - all in better positions than the Jays and all with the ability to say 'screw it' to a budget. FYI: Phillies CF has a 66 OPS+, RF an 81. They need Trout more than the Jays do, plus are 1st in their division as is. The Dodgers have a LF with a -7 OPS+ (!) in Chris Taylor, backup is James Outman (48 OPS+ and now in minors), then Jason Heyward (103 OPS+). Not hard to see either of them doing the deal and Trout agreeing to it (especially the Dodgers).

Are there other big contracts for good players that teams might want to dump? Marlins are cheap enough they might trade Jazz Chisholm Jr. as he is in arbitration years (free agent post 2026) but he isn't a big target imo. Starling Marte hitting again (120 OPS+) for the Mets in RF but very poor on defense (dWAR of -1.3 already) so really a DH making $20.75 mil this year and next. Nah. J.D. Martinez who many wanted the Jays to sign has a 124 OPS+ at DH. I'm really not seeing much. Any ideas?
dalimon5 - Tuesday, June 11 2024 @ 03:32 PM EDT (#447349) #
Jazz Chisholm Jr or Pete Alonso are likely available. Others available if you trade Tiedeman and Orelvis would include:

Kyle Tucker if Astros fall out of it
Nolan Gorman
Fernando Tatis Jr if Padres fall out of it
Isaac Paredes if TB falls out of it


That's about it for guys who could be available with HR power improve the line up.
Gerry - Tuesday, June 11 2024 @ 03:47 PM EDT (#447350) #
I heard some commentator say recently that if Atkins punts on the season, he will be signing his termination papers.

I agree, unfortunately.
greenfrog - Tuesday, June 11 2024 @ 03:48 PM EDT (#447351) #
If Arizona falls out of the playoff race, Pederson seems like the kind of player the front office would target. He's on an affordable one-year contract and shouldn't cost too much in terms of prospects -- sort of like Jordan Hicks last year.

Pederson has a higher ISO this year than three of the players you mentioned (Chisholm Jr., Paredes and Tatis Jr.).
Nigel - Tuesday, June 11 2024 @ 03:53 PM EDT (#447352) #
This past offseason I thought that the team either had to empty the bucket and invest in the club or decide it wasnít worth it and sell. They did neither. Iíd be against a ďgo for itĒ trade now because we have another almost half season of data that this is just a meh club. One big bat isnít going to change that. Just as importantly the team has neither the prospects nor the payroll room to pull off a material acquisition. I donít think much of the systemís top prospects but I understand your mileage may vary on that. At the end of the day I want this FO to do something because the current club is just thoroughly mediocre. I expect the FO to conclude that too and that the next big move is a sale not a buy.
dalimon5 - Tuesday, June 11 2024 @ 04:21 PM EDT (#447353) #
Nigel I agree with you except that one big bat can't make a difference. It will definitely make a difference.

Greenfrog - Pederson is literally the perfect pick up for this team because of his skill set, contract and cost.

I just prefer the big deals where you can keep more capital by taking on the money. I agree Trout won't wave his rights to come here but that's the type of player this team needs to become instantly balanced and more dangerous. I don't know if many of the other available bats would have the same impact. Pederson is very very streaky.

How many millions are coming off the books end of this season? A ton. How much faith do we all have in this front office turning Tiedeman into a front line starter? You can see where I am going with this.
John Northey - Tuesday, June 11 2024 @ 04:41 PM EDT (#447354) #
3 directions
  1. Go for it - the fun one we are talking about here today mostly. Sadly also the least realistic.
  2. As is - most boring - Jays stick as is with some call ups and maybe getting a reliever or two in, maybe a backup OF.
  3. Rebuild - as mentioned, it would be Atkin writing off his job - might be fired first, then Shapiro takes over as GM for the rest of 2024 or an internal option to clear out payroll. We'd see Jansen, Kikuchi, Turner, Kiermaier, Garcia, and Richards all traded or on the block (all free agents post 2024). Maybe the big Vlad or Bo deal happens in this case.
2025's payroll is at $130 million right now ($141.5 for payroll tax purposes) with Vlad the big cost to be determined plus the free agents, with Romano bein around $10 mil, Varsho getting a bump to the $10-15 range, and visible bumps for Mayza, Kirk, Swanson, Cabrera, Pearson, Manoah, and Clement (all in arbitration). Soto, Scherzer, Goldschmidt, Teoscar Hernandez, Corbin, Alonso, Bregman are some of the bigger names out there this winter. What will the Jays do? Impossible to say for sure right now. It all depends on how 2024 goes. If they get into the playoffs expect a push for Soto. If they drop out of it and are sub 500 then expect a rebuild and no big free agents.
christaylor - Tuesday, June 11 2024 @ 04:44 PM EDT (#447355) #
Some of the comments have made me wonder:

a) Do people think it is worth upgrading a Jays team from bubble status to being a meh team in the thick of the playoff hunt?

b) Should the team only be upgraded when it's a strong Jays team (i.e., competing for the division) with a couple of identifiable holes?

On the selling side:

c) Should a meh Jays team punt on the last two months with a sell off?

d) Should the team avoid anything except minor sell-offs because the Jays fanbase is has a greater proportion of casual versus core fans?

I can remember the upgrades, but I can't remember any big sell-off years -- perhaps the Jose Cruz Jr. year might count. Teo for Liriano seemed like a minor deal at the time.

I guess the upside for the team with an addition seems better than the alternative. Additions can have a ripple effect throughout the roster as we saw for an unlucky .500 Jays team in 2015. This team is not that, but perhaps with a bat and an arm, there's more upside there than just what the new players bring.
Magpie - Tuesday, June 11 2024 @ 05:22 PM EDT (#447356) #
I can't remember any big sell-off years

I sure do! (Hey, being old works for something!) It was 1998, and the team was 54-56 at the end of July. The Great Selling was already in progress. The team unloaded 3B Ed Sprague, DH Mike Stanley, OF-INF Tony Phillips, SP Juan Guzman, and CL Randy Myers.

It turned out to be addition by subtraction - they went 34-18 over the final two months. Getting Phillips and Canseco out of the outfield, and Tony Fernandez out of the middle of the infield improved the team's defense enormously.
SK in NJ - Tuesday, June 11 2024 @ 05:23 PM EDT (#447357) #
They will do a partial sell, meaning they will trade players that are free agents after 2024, keep everyone else, and run it back one more time in 2025. I think that approach is just as ridiculous as it was in 2017 when the same FO made the exact same mistake but unfortunately I see no other realistic alternative. Shapiroís contract ends after 2025 and Atkins after 2026. There is no incentive for either of them to start a rebuild. We just have to hope Shapiro has eyes on something else and the team moves on with a different top guy. Itís easy to look at Atkins as the problem, but someone had to hire him/keep him, and thatís Shapiro.
Ducey - Tuesday, June 11 2024 @ 05:23 PM EDT (#447358) #
Atkins is likely has one foot out the door already.

If the Jays drop out of it this year (which they will barring a big turn around from half of their hitters) then they are looking at a winter of sitting down with Vlad and Bo to talk contract. Assuming they want to walk, then the team likely needs to be shopping them. Maybe you could just hang on for 2025 and go with a QO for Vlad but not likely for Bo.

The end of an era with Bo and Vlad leaving means then end of Atkins. So its this winter or next. This seems inevitable.

Shapiro wont allow a trade for Trout or signing of Soto as that will mean they have no plan, and he will get canned too.
Magpie - Tuesday, June 11 2024 @ 05:35 PM EDT (#447359) #
The Brewers have called up Carlos Rodriguez to start tonight's game. It's a major league debut. He's a 22 year old RH from Nicaragua, who's gone 4-5, 5.17 for AAA Nashville.
greenfrog - Tuesday, June 11 2024 @ 05:38 PM EDT (#447360) #
Lots of predictions. I think it's too soon to say how this will play out. Let's see where the team is at in a month and a half (just before the July 30 trade deadline). The team could be a WC contender or a non-contender at that point.

It sure would help if a few of the key hitters started to hit, and a couple of the non-performing relievers started to relieve.
soupman - Tuesday, June 11 2024 @ 05:45 PM EDT (#447361) #
I don't see how signing the second best hitter in baseball over the last 5 years would be interpreted as having 'no plan'. They tried to sign Ohtani last offseason, if you believe the papers. Trout and Soto are 2 of 4 players with a wOBA over 400 since 2019, one and possibly both are available. The Jays demonstrated last offseason that part of the plan is paying whatever price to add people in free agency under the right circumstance. If the plan was to blow the team up after 2025, why were they trying to sign Ohtani?
scottt - Tuesday, June 11 2024 @ 06:28 PM EDT (#447362) #
d) Should the team avoid anything except minor sell-offs because the Jays fanbase is has a greater proportion of casual versus core fans?

Core fans are not folks who like losing teams. Core fans are folks who boycott the team when the product sucks. Casual fans just follow whatever is trendy.

A rebuild doesn't magically turn teams into what they have in Baltimore. Nothing guarantees that they would build back to a .500 team if they dumped everybody. Most prospects fail. What they have in Detroit is the most likely outcome of a rebuild.

scottt - Tuesday, June 11 2024 @ 06:41 PM EDT (#447363) #
They don't have lots of holes to fill. They just need a big bat in the middle of the lineup. An MVP bat.
 


pooks137 - Tuesday, June 11 2024 @ 07:14 PM EDT (#447364) #
It was 1998, and the team was 54-56 at the end of July. The Great Selling was already in progress. The team unloaded 3B Ed Sprague, DH Mike Stanley, OF-INF Tony Phillips, SP Juan Guzman, and CL Randy Myers.

I recall watching the trade deadline results at 11:30 on the 31st from Global's Sportsline in a pre-Internet age. I was curious at the time whether the Shannon Carter who the Jays got back for Juan Guzman was related to Joe.

Looking up the spoils of that sell-off, the only guys that came back the other way were Pete Munro, Nerio Rodriguez and Leo Estralla.

Doesn't bode well for the "let's blow it up" camp.

mathesond - Tuesday, June 11 2024 @ 07:31 PM EDT (#447365) #
I remember going to see a game that year specifically because I figured it'd be Guzman's last start as a Jay. I believe it was the first (and still possibly only) 1-0 game I attended. He threw 8 shutout innings, giving up just a handful of hits. BB ref tells me Randy Myers picked up the save - must have been one of his last appearances as a Jay, thanks to the Padres claiming him off waivers in August.
christaylor - Tuesday, June 11 2024 @ 07:54 PM EDT (#447366) #
Ah! That explains it given my fan trajectory. I watched only Clemens starts in 98 and only tuned into the team after my summer classes ended and into September that year. The 1998 selloff seems to have had less than stellar results in what came back. Also mention Cruz had me look back on his career, for all the hype, not much there but I do remember enjoying watching him play, which is not nothing as it is all merely entertainment after all.

After my kid fandom (from before I remember as my coincidentally lived in the same Mississauga townhouse complex as the Whitt family before moving to Etobicoke) my attention waxed and waned substantially until it ticked upward from casual to solid in the 00s.
greenfrog - Tuesday, June 11 2024 @ 08:22 PM EDT (#447367) #
The Brewers have called up Carlos Rodriguez to start tonight's game. It's a major league debut. He's a 22 year old RH from Nicaragua, who's gone 4-5, 5.17 for AAA Nashville

So, 5 or 6 innings of shutout ball against the Blue Jays tonight then?
greenfrog - Tuesday, June 11 2024 @ 08:36 PM EDT (#447368) #
You're welcome, everyone! :)
uglyone - Tuesday, June 11 2024 @ 08:48 PM EDT (#447369) #
Sorry, pooks, but sportsline definitely started at 11:35!
Magpie - Tuesday, June 11 2024 @ 09:10 PM EDT (#447370) #
The Blue Jays have three hits with runners in scoring position and have scored one run? Sounds like the sort of thing no other team could accomplish.
mathesond - Tuesday, June 11 2024 @ 09:17 PM EDT (#447371) #
If the keep it up, someone should let Jayson Stark know.
greenfrog - Tuesday, June 11 2024 @ 09:44 PM EDT (#447372) #
It's incredible that, as with Davis Schneider last year, the Blue Jays kept Horwitz in AAA for so long while they were desperate for offense. The Blue Jays have been rolling with Vogelbach as their LH DH/1B/bench bat for over two months. He's hitting .188/.273/.304 and he's posted -0.3 fWAR.

Finally, in June, with the team at risk of dropping out of contention, the cautious front office duo promotes Horwitz, who hits the ground running, with a current slash line of .385/.467/.462 (wRC+ 160, 13.3% K, 13.3% BB).
Magpie - Tuesday, June 11 2024 @ 09:56 PM EDT (#447373) #
I figured it'd be Guzman's last start as a Jay.

And it was. He was traded the next day.

You got to see him beat Lord Voldemort, although he wasn't known as such at the time.
greenfrog - Tuesday, June 11 2024 @ 10:30 PM EDT (#447374) #
Maybe promote Lukes if Kiermaier needs a bit of time to recover from the knee contusion?
greenfrog - Tuesday, June 11 2024 @ 10:33 PM EDT (#447375) #
Good job by John Schneider to manage his way through B8 without giving up a run.
uglyone - Wednesday, June 12 2024 @ 12:55 AM EDT (#447376) #
Blue Jays are 32-10 in games the score 3+ runs.
Michael - Wednesday, June 12 2024 @ 01:15 AM EDT (#447377) #
FWIW through out MLB history 3 is the mode runs scored by a team in a game:

https://www.reddit.com/r/baseball/comments/2o5tzv/the_most_common_scores_in_mlb_history/#lightbox

But there are more times teams score more than that then less than that. So about 70% of the time teams score 3+ runs, and the Jays are winning more than 75% of those games. So if the Jays can keep up that rate of winning, and have that historic ~70% of the time 3+ runs then they'd win 52.5% of their games just from these even if they never won a game where they scored 0-2 runs. In reality they probably expect to win something like 10-20% of those games too (for the 2 and 1, obviously 0% of the 0 run games). So you can see which side of the Jays is struggling between runs scored and runs prevented (although offense does seem to be down MLB wide this year too).
scottt - Wednesday, June 12 2024 @ 06:11 AM EDT (#447378) #
Horwitz is a full-time player. Vogelbach is a bench bat. Different role.
It's difficult to be productive when you have few, irregular ABs.
For years, they didn't have that 13th position player.
The best use for that bench spot is a platoon and they tried that with Biggio and Schneider.
Arguably, Schneider has cooled off and this would be a good time to give Biggio some ABs.
Oh, well. It seems that they were more worried about Turner than Schneider and they don't really lose a ton by playing Clement instead of Biggio.

Obviously, for a bench bat, higher OPS is better.
It's not something they can predict.
Vogelbach is having decent ABs.
He's patient. He waits for something to hit and he takes a whack.
Also, he's got power.

scottt - Wednesday, June 12 2024 @ 06:14 AM EDT (#447379) #
Would be shocking if they bring somebody to Milwaukee for a day game.
Then they have a day off to see how he's doing.

Gerry - Wednesday, June 12 2024 @ 06:32 AM EDT (#447380) #
Lukes went on the IL a few days ago with a thumb injury.
bpoz - Wednesday, June 12 2024 @ 08:39 AM EDT (#447381) #
WC races: AL KC 2nd WC 10 games over 500 they could easily drop to 7 gms or less over 500. Houston 6 gms under 500. They could go to 1 gm over 500. That would leave 7 teams fighting for 2 WC spots.

NL Atlanta 6 gms over 500 in possession of the 1st WC, with Washington 4 gms under 500. This leaves 9 teams fighting for 3 WCs.

So as of today IMO the NL WC race is easier than the AL race.
99BlueJaysWay - Wednesday, June 12 2024 @ 09:29 AM EDT (#447382) #
Biggio to the Dodgers for Braydon Fisher. Any thoughts?
Leaside Cowboy - Wednesday, June 12 2024 @ 09:29 AM EDT (#447383) #
Cavan Biggio traded to the L.A. Dodgers.
Gerry - Wednesday, June 12 2024 @ 09:33 AM EDT (#447384) #
Fisher is a 23 year old reliever. He has split time between AA and AAA this season. Combined he has 30 strikeouts in 19 innings but he has walked 15. So a bit wild. Can the Jays get him to limit the walks?
pooks137 - Wednesday, June 12 2024 @ 10:01 AM EDT (#447385) #
I guess those who argued that Biggio would be picked up in a heartbeat ended up being correct.

I suppose this means that the Dodgers also picked up the rest of Cavan's roughly 2.78 million or so in remaining salary.

I'm still okay with the move. Really liked the OG version of Biggio (like everyone else) but his slash line has been so ugly for 4 seasons even if more advanced stats claim he's been closer to league average.

Cavan was also a "young" 29 because of his association with Vlad & Bo.

I looked at the Jays payroll commitments for next year. Despite all the expiring contracts, it struck me how old & expensive the team is with hardly anyone under 3 years service time (Horwitz, Schneider, Francis, Kirk).

Even a guy like Nate Pearson already has 3+ years in the league because of all his time on the IL presumably.
pooks137 - Wednesday, June 12 2024 @ 10:04 AM EDT (#447386) #
I just assumed Kirk was still pre-arb, but noticed that like Pearson he's already over 3 and will be over 4 by season's end.
uglyone - Wednesday, June 12 2024 @ 10:49 AM EDT (#447387) #
Fisher tops out at only 95. But he seems to have a 3-4 pitch arsenal. Maybe they think he can drop some pitches to cut the wildness or maybe they think he has enough pitches to be more than just a 1 inning reliever. Unfortunately the stats don't promise much but at least he's still age appropriate for AAA.

I thought the jays should have been able to get someone that was more realistically mlb ready tbh.
greenfrog - Wednesday, June 12 2024 @ 11:09 AM EDT (#447388) #
They've had some success with wild pitchers before (Ray, Macko). Maybe they think this is a bit of a market inefficiency they can exploit. Seems like a low-probability, high-upside play.
Marc Hulet - Wednesday, June 12 2024 @ 11:33 AM EDT (#447390) #
Braydon Fisher is a warm body only. He throws mostly curveballs and some cutters/sliders. Only throws a fastball on occasionally, and has mostly been 90-93 mph per Statcast. He's also a milb free agent at the end of the year so has very little value and Toronto already had a lot of AA/AAA RHP relievers. Club could have used another IF or OF for depth but perhaps that's the best they could do...
uglyone - Wednesday, June 12 2024 @ 11:38 AM EDT (#447391) #
thanks marc. so worse than i even thought. too bad.

biggio is a useful mlb piece i thought they should have been able to get a serviceable reliever in return.
bpoz - Wednesday, June 12 2024 @ 11:52 AM EDT (#447392) #
To be a good team like the ones that built slowly with many high 1st round picks will not happen. The Jays had to go the FA route and get into luxury tax trouble for 2023 and 24. Shapiro and ownership have most likely had meetings on various strategies. Mainly to avoid being non competitive I suspect and to do something about the luxury tax penalties. They are also V good at being secretive so we basically know nothing IMO.

The "waves of prospects" has not worked out because of injuries to Tiedemann, Barriera, K Rojas and Maroudis. Maroudis if healthy could have cracked our top 10. He and Barriera as well as Rojas pitched V well when they actually pitched. Barriere and Manoah are back in 2025 and hopefully ar full strength in 2026. Fingers crossed that Tiedemann, Maroudis and Rojas return soon, but it seems we are at the half way mark of the season already.

I cannot see a solution but I can see possible plans. Mainly don't spend any money on FAs and do what it takes to get under the luxury tax levels. Talent wise add patchwork at off season and tradeline. Moves that don't cost much in $ or prospects. If someone offers a Berrios/Louis Castillo trade then try to do it and extend the player.
dalimon5 - Wednesday, June 12 2024 @ 12:11 PM EDT (#447393) #
LAD take Biggio and his entire salary to help the Jays in the hopes they can get first dibs at Bo later this season or in the off season. Jays trade Bo eventually and resign Vlad to a huge contract then go try to sign Soto in the off season to a bigger one.

At this point next year Jays great starting pitching is no longer so great and Gausman + Bassitt start to decline rapidly.

So who can the Jays get for Bo if they trade him in the off season, assuming Bo returns to normal production and is an elite bat again my end of season?
uglyone - Wednesday, June 12 2024 @ 12:23 PM EDT (#447394) #
It's freaking hilarious that we're in 3rd place in our division and one spot out of a playoff spot.

And yeah our run differential is worse than that but there's only one bubble team with a significantly positive run differential and that's Boston - and that Boston roster will never scare me.

With the overriding philosophy of this FO always having been "just make the playoffs and anything can happen", and with the dire state of our system right now, not to mention their job security and the huge investments made in this team on and off the field, I think it's pretty much a guarantee that they try and swing a big trade or two. And they really shouldn't be frightened of trading away any of our prospects because there's so little star potential in any of them.


Gerry - Wednesday, June 12 2024 @ 12:23 PM EDT (#447395) #
I was listening to the MLB Trade Rumors podcast today which was taped yesterday.

A listener wrote in suggesting the Dodgers move Mookie Betts back to the outfield, move Miguel Rojas to short and Gavin Lux to the minors. Lux has been playing 2B, is hitting .220 and the other 2B, Max Muncy, is injured and I read yesterday that his rehab is going slower than expected.

Based on this I see Biggio as a decent pickup for the Dodgers and he could see plenty of playing time at 2B.
Gerry - Wednesday, June 12 2024 @ 12:25 PM EDT (#447396) #
The Jays are sending some cash to the Dodgers so LA are not eating all his salry.

Also Joey Votto is very close to getting in some games per John Schneider.
dalimon5 - Wednesday, June 12 2024 @ 12:27 PM EDT (#447397) #
RE: Canadian Joey Bats... this is the best news since the season started. At worse he has always provided pop.
Glevin - Wednesday, June 12 2024 @ 12:46 PM EDT (#447398) #
Didn't expect much for Biggio because teams just don't generally give up valuable players for utility players. Going to Dodgers is good for him because they are more likely to find a new level than anyone. Still baffled by Vogelbach on the team though. An offense-only/vs RHP only DH you don't even trust to play against RHP half the time. What's the point of a part time DH who can't hit, field, or run?
Mike Green - Wednesday, June 12 2024 @ 12:57 PM EDT (#447400) #
Horwitz at first base, Schneider in left-field, Clement at third base and IKF at second, with Vogelbach DHing and Vlad getting a day off.  Needless to say, I approve.  The All-Star break is in a month and a couple of days, and there are 3 well spaced days-off in the interval but one long stretch of games from June 21- July 7.  Bo Bichette should get a day off during that stretch.
scottt - Wednesday, June 12 2024 @ 01:03 PM EDT (#447402) #
Fisher doesn't sound like a guy they will need to protect. He's only 23.
In 2022, opponents were batting .188 against him.
I would be surprised if he doesn't get a cup of coffee somewhere down the line.
Richards is mostly 90-92 with the fastball and is doing just fine.
Fangraphs had Fisher dumped in a pile titled "Many, Many Guys Who Throw Hard Enough To Be Interesting" in their last Dodgers prospects evaluation.
He strikes hitters at a good clips, just walks too many.

I don't really see the need for another IF prospect. Jimenez will be out of options next year.
It seems like one of him, Clement or Bichette will have to go before the start of next year.
If the Dodgers had any decent IF prospect would they be interested in Biggio?
Gavin Lux has a career .689 OPS, just .574 this year and over 3  years of service time.

Ducey - Wednesday, June 12 2024 @ 02:01 PM EDT (#447403) #
Fangraphs in March didnt list Fisher as one of the Dodgers top 49 prospects.

They had him with a bunch of guys under the title: Many, many guys who throw hard enough to be interesting. Then noted a lot of these guys are mid 90's, max effort, with command issues.

Looks like he had Tommy John in 2019

I'd put Biggio in the category of: Walks enough to be interesting. But note that he seems to have constant health problems with his upper back/ shoulder, doesnt protect the strike zone, has little power and is maybe a tick below replacement defensively.
scottt - Wednesday, June 12 2024 @ 02:23 PM EDT (#447404) #
Horwitz slayed the first inning scoring curse.
scottt - Wednesday, June 12 2024 @ 02:29 PM EDT (#447405) #
We sure live dangerously. The Brew Crew left over 10 runners on bases yesterday and already 3 in the first inning today.
Michael - Wednesday, June 12 2024 @ 02:50 PM EDT (#447406) #
It is interesting that Biggio (in theory) couldn't add much value to the 2024 Jays that struggle greatly with scoring runs; however, the superteam that are the Dodgers with the most runs scored of any team in Baseball thinks there's room for Biggio on their team. I hope he enjoys good success there.
mathesond - Wednesday, June 12 2024 @ 02:50 PM EDT (#447407) #
Holy smokes, just used Def Leppard's Stage Fright as the 'go to commercial' music. Always liked that song (doesn't hurt that that's what they opened with when I saw them in '88).
electric carrot - Wednesday, June 12 2024 @ 02:58 PM EDT (#447408) #
Put me on the side of those who say maybe we could use another big bat at or before the deadline. I think this team is a lot better than its performance/results to date. I think we'll see a jump in the results part. And if so, maybe another bat would help give the team an extra lift for a potential playoff run. I would love it if that bat was actually in the body of Joey Votto but tbh that feels like "magical thinking."
Mike Green - Wednesday, June 12 2024 @ 03:01 PM EDT (#447409) #
YBTM.  Pinch-run for Vogelbach?
Mike Green - Wednesday, June 12 2024 @ 03:02 PM EDT (#447410) #
They didn't and the double play seemed like it was bound to happen. 
99BlueJaysWay - Wednesday, June 12 2024 @ 03:20 PM EDT (#447411) #
That double play had nothing to do with Vogelbachís speed
99BlueJaysWay - Wednesday, June 12 2024 @ 03:22 PM EDT (#447412) #
Not the best version of Bassitt today. Something about his finger or nail appears to be bothering him. Heís had a lot of trouble locating, and heís been heavy on the sinker. Maybe because heís been in trouble a lot, or maybe because of the finger issue.

Hopefully heís OK and doesnít have to miss any time.
Mike Green - Wednesday, June 12 2024 @ 03:26 PM EDT (#447413) #
The Blue Jays have hit 4 line drives today.  All 4 have been caught. 
Ducey - Wednesday, June 12 2024 @ 03:27 PM EDT (#447414) #
Good that Vlad has a day off.
Mike Green - Wednesday, June 12 2024 @ 03:37 PM EDT (#447415) #
And Milwaukee has 5 hits, almost all of the weakly hit variety.  The BABIP gods have been in their favour so far. 
greenfrog - Wednesday, June 12 2024 @ 03:52 PM EDT (#447416) #
Walking the #9 hitter with two out? Ouch. Hope that doesn't come back to bite Pop.
uglyone - Wednesday, June 12 2024 @ 03:53 PM EDT (#447417) #
not an ideal way to give up the lead.
Glevin - Wednesday, June 12 2024 @ 03:55 PM EDT (#447418) #
Really awful umpiring today all over the field.
uglyone - Wednesday, June 12 2024 @ 04:00 PM EDT (#447419) #
yeah, babip gods just won't let up today.
Magpie - Wednesday, June 12 2024 @ 04:00 PM EDT (#447420) #
They keep talking about the Brewers like they're some light hitting team from the Dead Ball Era. They're second in the NL in OnBase, third in Slugging, BAVG, and fourth in HRs. Which is why they're third in the league in Runs Scored.
greenfrog - Wednesday, June 12 2024 @ 04:04 PM EDT (#447421) #
Good thing Yariel is in Buffalo with a 0.52 ERA throwing 4-inning shutout stints while striking out 10. Definitely no need for that type of performance on the Blue Jays roster at the moment.
dalimon5 - Wednesday, June 12 2024 @ 04:04 PM EDT (#447422) #
"It is interesting that Biggio (in theory) couldn't add much value to the 2024 Jays that struggle greatly with scoring runs; however, the superteam that are the Dodgers with the most runs scored of any team in Baseball thinks there's room for Biggio on their team. I hope he enjoys good success there."

Unintentionally professional trolling. Have you made one comment all year long about Biggio being under-utilized to create offense? Does a DFA pick up from the Dodgers truly change your perspective of Biggio or is this just an opportunity to try to poop on the Blue Jays?
SK in NJ - Wednesday, June 12 2024 @ 04:08 PM EDT (#447423) #
I seem to recall the Jays got within a game of .500 around this time in 2017, after a brutal start, but could never reach .500 and eventually had the wheels fall off. It's remarkable how similar this season has been to 2017, including the off-season that came before it.

Hopefully the rest of June puts this team out of its misery. I'll take a bad 2024 if it means changes are made.
Mike Green - Wednesday, June 12 2024 @ 04:14 PM EDT (#447424) #
Before today, Fangraphs had the Blue Jays' bullpen as dead last in the major leagues.  I don't quite agree with that, but they were close. Today might do the trick.  
greenfrog - Wednesday, June 12 2024 @ 04:15 PM EDT (#447425) #
If you want to see something truly abominable, check out the slash lines of the Blue Jays #3-9 hitters in today's lineup. At the risk of oversimplification, they consist of:

Two .700 OPS players

Five .600 OPS players
uglyone - Wednesday, June 12 2024 @ 04:16 PM EDT (#447426) #
I think fangraphs had it right.

We've had 1 (Yimi) and a half (Green) good relievers this year.

And the majority of the other relievers haven't been just bad, but unplayably bad.
dalimon5 - Wednesday, June 12 2024 @ 04:25 PM EDT (#447427) #
It's that time of year when this site becomes toxic. Time for the original site creator to come on and call everyone out.
uglyone - Wednesday, June 12 2024 @ 04:32 PM EDT (#447428) #
What was said that was "toxic"?

Mike Green - Wednesday, June 12 2024 @ 04:33 PM EDT (#447429) #
In the interests of balance, it should be noted that the Blue Jay bullpen before today actually had a positive WPA, and ranked 14th in the major leagues by this metric.  It's not the be-all and end-all, but does  suggest that up until now the damage to the bullpen has been concentrated in a few games which ended up as blowouts or near-blowouts.  They rank 2nd in the major leagues in "Clutch" according to Fangraphs.  Thanks, Yimi!
SK in NJ - Wednesday, June 12 2024 @ 04:35 PM EDT (#447430) #
The only non-Garcia RP with a fWAR above 0.00 is Pearson (0.1). The bullpen is definitely a weakness, but bullpens in particular are unpredictable year to year. Last season everything went well, not so much this season.
uglyone - Wednesday, June 12 2024 @ 04:38 PM EDT (#447431) #
tying run at the plate, 0 outs.

do this to get to .500 and let's have some fun.
dalimon5 - Wednesday, June 12 2024 @ 04:40 PM EDT (#447432) #
The constant dumping of negative energy by posters into their posts. Not all but some. I of course have been guilty of this as well but doing my best to enjoy what I can from this hobby/interest/outlet of mine.

Some posters won't see the negativity or toxic dumping through useless posts...those are the apathetic ones.

I hope they win this game to shut some people up.
uglyone - Wednesday, June 12 2024 @ 04:42 PM EDT (#447433) #
fact is there's been a lot of negative things to post about the jays this year.
Mike Green - Wednesday, June 12 2024 @ 04:42 PM EDT (#447434) #
#1 in Clutch prior to today was the Brewers.  Let's see how that stands up. 
uglyone - Wednesday, June 12 2024 @ 04:43 PM EDT (#447435) #
go ahead run up. no outs.


come on let's get this .500 mediocrity!
uglyone - Wednesday, June 12 2024 @ 04:45 PM EDT (#447436) #
tying run in scoring position. no outs.

Big George up!
uglyone - Wednesday, June 12 2024 @ 04:47 PM EDT (#447437) #
oh george.
uglyone - Wednesday, June 12 2024 @ 04:49 PM EDT (#447438) #
our whole team has warning track power even when they tag 100mph fastballs.

it's so weird
Mike Green - Wednesday, June 12 2024 @ 04:49 PM EDT (#447439) #
Kirk and Guerrero Jr. hit the ball hard.  Not much more you can ask from them. 
Mike Green - Wednesday, June 12 2024 @ 04:52 PM EDT (#447440) #
Like I said up-thread.  Take two relief pitchers and call me in the morning.  Still true. 
greenfrog - Wednesday, June 12 2024 @ 04:53 PM EDT (#447441) #
Yes, Kirk and Vladdy had good swings to make it close. Too little, too late after Springer's strikeout (admittedly on some tough pitches). George is hitting .198/.287/.295, quite concerning given that we're into mid-June.
dalimon5 - Wednesday, June 12 2024 @ 04:58 PM EDT (#447442) #
Agreed on George. That being said, could the manager have used a better pitcher against Adames?
SK in NJ - Wednesday, June 12 2024 @ 04:58 PM EDT (#447443) #
Springer killed that inning with the strike out (though better than a DP), but otherwise can't really hate anything about that inning. The two outs by Kirk and Vlad were both very well hit.
Mike Green - Wednesday, June 12 2024 @ 05:02 PM EDT (#447444) #
Schneider brought on Mayza to face Yelich with two out.  The price for Mayza not getting Yelich (which wasn't a shock to be truthful) is that he had to face Adames.  Adames has hit .335/.412/.539 against the Blue Jays prior to today.  Not quite Ryan Mountcastle, but almost. 
Ducey - Wednesday, June 12 2024 @ 05:09 PM EDT (#447445) #
Pop, Richards and Pearson have been ok this year. But when they blow up they blow up good.

Interesting that 6 of the 7 hits came from Horwitz, Schneider and Clement today (2 each). Dumping more vets and bringing up AAA guys might turn the offense around. Too bad Lukes and Jimenez are banged up.
hypobole - Wednesday, June 12 2024 @ 05:18 PM EDT (#447446) #
our whole team has warning track power even when they tag 100mph fastballs.

Yup. Dead last in MLB in HR/FB at 8.1%. As much as people blamed it all on the RC, they're at 8.3% home, 7.9% road.
pooks137 - Wednesday, June 12 2024 @ 05:39 PM EDT (#447447) #
Before today, Fangraphs had the Blue Jays' bullpen as dead last in the major leagues.

What stands out the most in those Fangraphs reliever rankings is that the Jays relievers are giving up the most dingers in the league.

Dead last in giving up 1.6 HR/9 with 29th place Tampa giving up 1.24.

Lowest GB% in the league (even witn Zach Pop).

Worst HR/FB% at 15%, so maybe a bit of bad luck as well.

They Jays also have one of the worst K/9 as well, so that's not a great combination: lots of balls in play, tons of flyballs, lots of hard contact.

Mike Green - Wednesday, June 12 2024 @ 06:36 PM EDT (#447449) #
Vladdy's IsoP this year is a very low .127 despite hitting the ball quite hard and quite often. Does anyone know if there is a spin issue- perhaps he hits the ball in such a way to produce topspin and it sinks like a Bjorn Borg forehand? I really don't know, but it is a theory anyways.
dalimon5 - Wednesday, June 12 2024 @ 06:39 PM EDT (#447450) #
To me Vlad has done enough to escape major criticism. As others have posted, the rest of he line up can be atrocious at times.
greenfrog - Wednesday, June 12 2024 @ 06:50 PM EDT (#447451) #
On the postgame show, Caleb was talking about how much more dynamic and athletic the Brewers lineup is compared to the Blue Jays lineup.
Michael - Wednesday, June 12 2024 @ 06:57 PM EDT (#447452) #
"We've had 1 (Yimi) and a half (Green) good relievers this year."

I think Richards has still been legit good this year. 30 IP, WHIP below 1, ERA of 3.5, roughly 1K/IP and 0.5 BB/IP is a good enough line for a reliever to still be a plus.

Beyond them it is trouble. The bullpen is a lot better if the Pop/Pearson type performance is the 8th or 9th best option instead of the 4th or 5th.
hypobole - Wednesday, June 12 2024 @ 07:02 PM EDT (#447453) #
Dead last in giving up 1.6 HR/9 with 29th place Tampa giving up 1.24.

The average MLB reliever gives up 0.96 HR/9. After today, only 3 players who have pitched for the Jays in relief are better than that. 2 of the 3 are the 2 innings IKF pitched and Mitch White. And that leaves Yimi's 0.66 HR/9.
soupman - Wednesday, June 12 2024 @ 07:15 PM EDT (#447454) #
Last year's couch cushion find Jay Jackson has a 6.85 ERA in 22 innings of work. Cimber has a 5.43 over 24 innings, and Trent Thornton is the best of the bunch with 3.41 ERA in 29 innings with 29Ks.

The injuries to Swanson and Romano and their lingering effects have really impacted the bullpen this year, not that it was reasonable to expect basically everyone down there to have sub-3 ERAs like 2023. A lot of guys that been forced into situations that they are not well suited to. With that said, the Jays are back to having a relatively low-velocity, low-K/9 bullpen.

Cabrera also struggled early last year, and was a great pickup. Whereas last year the underlying numbers suggested he was a victim of bad luck, this year he showed a loss of command and stuff. Over the last few weeks he's limited the walks, but really not seeing the swing and miss out of him. He has an option left. I'd like to see the Jays make a move for someone as a lefty specialist, I was hoping they might do something around moving Biggio to help the pen, but oh well.

I read Chris Bassit's comments about the heavy lifting the starters are doing. I recall comments he made earlier this year about free agency. On one hand, I appreciate his candour. On the other, I wonder what the reaction from the team will be.
soupman - Wednesday, June 12 2024 @ 07:17 PM EDT (#447455) #
that = have
I don't even have the excuse of typing on my phone.
John Northey - Wednesday, June 12 2024 @ 07:58 PM EDT (#447456) #
Looking for it the quote from Bassitt is ďOur starters have got to be good. Thatís just the reality of our team,Ē Bassitt said. ďOur starters have to be good and I feel like weíve done a [much] better job over the last month of doing that.Ē (via MLB.com at the bottom of the article). Hard not to agree with him. The offense has been offensive and not in a good way, the bullpen has been a load of bull.... well, you know the rest. It looked good coming into the year but the killer has been injuries at the top thus forcing everyone into roles other than their are suited for. Garcia stepped up, but the rest have had issues. Ideally the plan was Romano closing, Swanson setup, Green next setup, Garcia #3 setup with Mayza as LH pressure guy, Cabrera the less pressure LHer, Richards the mid-long guy, White as the very long guy. Guys like Pop, Pearson, Little to be left in AAA as injury coverage guys who should never see action in ties or trusted with the lead outside of extra innings. Instead White has been released, Romano & Swanson injured or ineffective all year, Pearson has a save and a blown save as does Cabrera, Pop just blew a lead today (after he got to 2 outs no one on too).
  • Little: 6 games, trusted with a lead once (4 runs), came in down 2 once, all others down 4+
  • Pop: 20 games, trusted with a lead 8 times now, 7 times with a lead of 3 or less (today first blown)
  • Pearson: 27 games, trusted with a lead 13 times, 7 times with a lead of 3 or less (only blew one)
  • Cabrera: 26 games, trusted with a lead 12 times, 6 times of 3 or less (5 of those 1 run) only blew one.
In a perfect world those 4 would not have been used those 34 times with a lead, but just 3 blown saves in those 34 games so not that bad really. We can't blame the extras who have been tossed into the fire due to necessity. Romano is 8-1-0 in Sv-Bl-Hd, Garcia 5-1-9, Green 2-0-5, Swanson 0-1-5. So the pressure guys have combined for 15 saves, 19 holds, and just 3 blown saves which is a solid record. Overall the team is 17 saves, 43 holds, 8 blown saves (no one has 2). Only the Reds have fewer blown saves than the Jays (3) while the White Sox "lead" with 19 blown saves. Factoring in saves and holds the Jays are successful 89.6% of the time. Only 4 teams are doing better - Minnesota Twins, Seattle Mariners, St. Louis Cardinals, and #1Cincinnati Reds (94.7%). 7 teams are sub 80% (Red Sox among them).

So yeah, the pen has its issues, but overall when asked to do what we need a pen to do (hold a lead) they do the job. Now if the hitters would just give them more leads to protect...
greenfrog - Wednesday, June 12 2024 @ 08:07 PM EDT (#447457) #
Iím trying to understand what it is that makes Mattingly a good hitting coach / offensive coordinator. The teamís offense is severely underperforming. Maybe Mattinglyís illustrious past as a hitter insulates him from any criticism.

In general, there seems to be little accountability for the coaches, manager and front office in this organization. Everyone carries on as though everything is perfectly fine.
Glevin - Wednesday, June 12 2024 @ 08:37 PM EDT (#447458) #
The Jays forgot to tell Mattingly they wanted a 1986 version of him and not the 1990 one.
soupman - Wednesday, June 12 2024 @ 09:03 PM EDT (#447459) #
Thanks for this write up. My big takeaway from this is that John Schneider may be lucky, but even then, he has done a good job managing the pen going back to last year.

scottt - Wednesday, June 12 2024 @ 09:06 PM EDT (#447460) #
I expect Rodriguez to be up before long which could help.

At least Schneider had the balls to put Horwitz at the top of the lineup. He's got a .920 OPS.
Jansen is second at .816 and it's hard to score 5+ runs when he's not in the lineup.

If Votto can rake at AAA for a couple of weeks, it would be an easy call to DFA Vogelbach.
I don't know what to expect here. It took him almost 3 months to recover from stepping on a bat.


dalimon5 - Wednesday, June 12 2024 @ 10:02 PM EDT (#447461) #
I do wonder if Votto is struggling with any mental challenges in his comeback attempt. I remember he had challenges early in his career which were not physical but mental as he grapples with the passing of his father if I remember correctly. He strikes me as a rare type of player who controls his own journey and goes to his own pace. He leaves himself vulnerable and he's honest. Maybe he rolled his ankle and has been second guessing things or just telling himself he will return for the 2nd half only.
Magpie - Wednesday, June 12 2024 @ 10:12 PM EDT (#447462) #
Biggio playing third base, batting ninth, and wearing number 6?
John Northey - Wednesday, June 12 2024 @ 10:30 PM EDT (#447463) #
If said once, it has been said 1000 times - we need Bo & Springer to start hitting at least at a 100 OPS+ level. Minimum. Or the odds of the offense doing anything is nil. Those are 2 massive holes right now from 2 guys who won't sit. I hate to say it, but at this point an injury to Springer might be the best thing that could happen to the Jays, it'd force them to play someone else in RF - hopefully a call-up like Barger (who has played a fair amount of RF in the minors) who might hit better.
Michael - Thursday, June 13 2024 @ 02:12 AM EDT (#447465) #
Mixed first game for Biggio in LA. He was 1 for 3 hitting 9th and started a good dobule play but also committed an error.
Gerry - Thursday, June 13 2024 @ 07:38 AM EDT (#447466) #
I was wondering if Bo's personal situation is impacting his play on the field.

I am only somewhat aware of the details but Bo's brother Dante Jr. has gone public with allegations that Dante Sr physically abused him when he was a child. I don't know if Bo has commented on his childhood.

Over the last few years Dante Sr would show up from time to time especially if Bo was struggling a bit. I haven't seen him or heard of him being near the team this season.

It's a tough situation for Bo and it must be weighing on him.
uglyone - Thursday, June 13 2024 @ 09:13 AM EDT (#447468) #
Roberts on the Dodgers trying to get Biggio back on track:

"Our hitting guys dug in a little bit and felt that there's some things we can unlock (in) him offensively."


Are the Dodgers going to end up embarrassing our coaching staff?
mathesond - Thursday, June 13 2024 @ 09:23 AM EDT (#447469) #
I dunno, I was kind of expecting Roberts to say, "we have no idea how to dix him, we'll just hope for the best."
Chuck - Thursday, June 13 2024 @ 09:33 AM EDT (#447470) #
I was kind of expecting Roberts to say, "we have no idea how to fix him, we'll just hope for the best."

Or, "Biggio has been no great shakes for awhile, but have you seen what our bench players look like these days? And did you notice that the front office entirely forgot to staff our middle infield? We even had to bring in our gold glove outfielder. How stupid is that?"

Mike Green - Thursday, June 13 2024 @ 09:45 AM EDT (#447471) #
I'm not surprised that the Dodgers picked up Biggio.  If he can hit his career average performance at age 29 (wRC+ of 103), he's quite a valuable player. It ought not to be a shock if he can do that, and anything better than that would be gravy.  The Dodgers need players like that, with Betts, Ohtani, Freeman, Teoscar, and Smith doing the heavy lifting offensively.

If Daniel Vogelbach is more valuable to your club than Cavan Biggio, you are doing something wrong.  Don't get me wrong- I like Vogelbach.  It's just that his role ought to involve many fewer PAs than a player like Biggio. 
hypobole - Thursday, June 13 2024 @ 10:16 AM EDT (#447472) #
Apparently the Dante jr allegations were from an entirely different person with the same name, or were entirely fictitious. Either way, it was not Bo's brother who made them.

That is why the media never picked up the story.
Ryan Day - Thursday, June 13 2024 @ 10:41 AM EDT (#447473) #
I don't see a return to career numbers for Biggio, given that he lost his power after the 2020 season. He's a career 219/327/351 hitter over 332 games since then - potentially useful, and better than what the Dodgers have got out of Lux, but still behind the likes of Schneider, Clement, Horwitz & others in Toronto.

Maybe the Dodgers can encourage Biggio to be a bit more aggressive? Most of the time he looks like he's waiting for Ball 4 and praying the pitcher can't actually throw a fastball for a strike.
dalimon5 - Thursday, June 13 2024 @ 10:57 AM EDT (#447474) #
Biggio vs Vogelbach is an easy decision. Biggio is far more valuable.

Biggio vs Vogelbach as the 25th man on the roster that is dying for some power production from the left side...completely different story.


Biggio vs Vogelbach as the 25th man on the roster which includes Horwitz, Schneider, Clement and IKF who can all play OF, 2B, 3B and DH? Easy decision for me...

Toronto is not the place for Biggio, Los Angeles is. Had this team effectively rostered themselves in the offseason as Nigel has pointed out many times then Biggio could be a lot more valuable. They have had two off seasons to get a clean up hitter and some pop from the left side and never have. Instead they have brought in more versatile infielders on top of the ones that they already had both in AAA and the majors.

This team will be better without Biggio due to its roster construction and Biggio will be much better off in LA than Toronoto. Lets just hope Bo isn't asking Cavan to rent a two bedroom place, as one radio show recently joked.
dalimon5 - Thursday, June 13 2024 @ 11:00 AM EDT (#447475) #
Also, Biggio is more than likely to do better in LA. It's not hard to "unlock" him. Think about it:

* He already has better OPS than hitters 6, 7, 8 and 9 of the Dodgers line up.
* He will play more there than he ever has here since 2020/21
* He will face pitchers who are likely struggling with their pitch counts and runs against by the time they get to him in the line up with the other wordly top of the order bats in front of him
* Hitting in advantageous situations like having runners on base

There are so many opportunities for him to "improve," similar to Teoscar who "improved" by moving from Seattle's crappy line up to the Dodgers
uglyone - Thursday, June 13 2024 @ 11:04 AM EDT (#447476) #
He's also got a better ops than at least 6 of our hitters.

You'd think someone who even while slumping wouldn't be close to the worst hitter on most teams, and has some defensive utility, should have been able to get something usable in return.
dalimon5 - Thursday, June 13 2024 @ 11:40 AM EDT (#447477) #
"He's also got a better ops than at least 6 of our hitters"


Yet you would have done the same thing and played Springer, Bo, Varsho, KK, etc all ahead of Biggio now wouldn't you of? They've all struggled at times to keep their OPS higher than Biggio who was playing part time and only against RHP. Pretending now that you would have played him ahead of any of them over the past few years is horse poop.
Ducey - Thursday, June 13 2024 @ 11:55 AM EDT (#447478) #
Biggio was not going to improve any more in TOR.

Maybe being DFA and understanding he may be looking at the end of his MLB career will change his approach - but really I think the Jays tried just about everything to unlock some more power, develop defensive versatility and fix some holes in his swing. He has had little bumps in production but keeps falling back to Meh.

If the Dodgers do unlock him, good for him, and hopefully thats enough to force some change in the hitting coach regime that seems to be badly underperforming.
soupman - Thursday, June 13 2024 @ 11:59 AM EDT (#447479) #
so you're saying the instagram posts that got reported the other day are a different person making the same accusations they made on instagram? i am just genuinely confused. are you saying the outlets that reported it recently (2024) have been had and done bad journalism?
Michael - Thursday, June 13 2024 @ 12:47 PM EDT (#447481) #
I've already shared that I know I'm more of a fan of Biggio than results/talent deserves. But I'd have been playing Biggio as much or more than KK. You are right I'd be playing Varsho, Bo, Springer more than Biggio (although I might be giving Springer a few more days off with Biggio in RF once it has been pretty clear that Springer is not hitting as well but that would be like 80/20 Springer/Biggio).
99BlueJaysWay - Thursday, June 13 2024 @ 12:49 PM EDT (#447482) #
I think complaining about Biggio's trade value is the definition of homerism.

Take the name away, and you have a player with an OPS+ of 80, four straight years of sub 100 OPS+, a .282 expected slug, a $4.2M salary, and a -5 batting runs value on Savant.

If Atkins gave up ANYTHING to receive such a player in a trade, people would be ripping him like crazy.
uglyone - Thursday, June 13 2024 @ 12:56 PM EDT (#447483) #

* Biggio Last 3yrs: 775pa, 98wrc+, 2.7war, 2.3war/650pa
* Biggio This Year: 134pa, 88wrc+, 0.5war, 2.4war/650pa
* Biggio Projected: 129pa, 100wrc+, 0.4war, 2.0war/650pa

Don't mind seeing him go. And didn't expect anything great in return. Just something useful.
85bluejay - Thursday, June 13 2024 @ 01:07 PM EDT (#447484) #
I googled the Bichette allegations story and every report mentioned that it was ex-baseball player and brother of Bo, Dante Bichette jr. making the allegations against his father ex-MLB star Dante Bichette - So I'm perplexed about the post of hypobole that this story was of another Bichette family and/or fictitious. Would appreciate an explanation if possible.
dalimon5 - Thursday, June 13 2024 @ 01:23 PM EDT (#447485) #
Dante Bichette Sr left the Blue Jays "due to the lock out" according to his son Bo Bichette. According to other people on the internet, commenters from fan sites, he actually was let go by the Blue Jays because of his past history with domestic violence. Apparently this was revealed in the past. I am only sharing what I found on the internet a few minutes ago and I have not way of verifying or suggesting this is anything more than internet garbage.

I only found a report on Daily Hive about Dante Bichette Sr's other son, Dante Bichette Jr's allegations and in that report/article there is no link to anything written by Dante Bichette Jr...it's just a link to Cooperstown Instagram account.

Looks to me like this report of Bo's brother making allegations is fake but there are some writings on the internet from the past which paint a picture of their father as an abuser of his wife and potentially older son.
soupman - Thursday, June 13 2024 @ 01:35 PM EDT (#447486) #
Dante Jr who apparently goes by Alphonse now because he hates his father, has been posting on social media for at least two years alleging abuse. Dante Sr's departure from the Blue Jays coincides with Dante Jr's accusations in 2022 which were posted on instagram.

Whether any of those accounts or posts are fake - I don't know. I'm not a journalist. I'm also not holding my breath for anyone that ultimately collects a paycheque from MLB or Rogers to write a story about it for what should be obvious reasons.

Ryan Day - Thursday, June 13 2024 @ 01:41 PM EDT (#447487) #
I've seen the Bichette allegations a couple times now, but never saw any reporting on it from any major outlets. That could just mean no one was willing to speak on the record about it, or that it falls somewhere between unverifiable & false. (If it were outright false, you might expect some sort of acknowledgement?)
hypobole - Thursday, June 13 2024 @ 02:08 PM EDT (#447488) #
85bluejay - It seems you are right. Back when the original allegations came out, it was on some spurious website and nothing further from any reputable source. Those allegations seemed to deserve some followup, but days and weeks went by with nothing. That is why I assumed they didn't involve Bo's family, or it was made up.

Now there are again allegations posted a few days ago apparently by Bichette jr, that I wasn't aware of when I posted.
Mike Green - Thursday, June 13 2024 @ 02:45 PM EDT (#447489) #
It's a very messy situation.  Dante Bichette Sr. was arrested for assault of his pregnant girlfriend in 1992 in Palm Beach.  His agent at the time, who is quoted in the linked Sports Illustrated article, was Ron Shapiro, Mark's father.   I don't visit sins of fathers on children (or vice versa), or assume that children know everything their parents do or say.  But it's just very messy. 
Mike Green - Thursday, June 13 2024 @ 03:07 PM EDT (#447490) #
On a positive note.  Why I love Davis Schneider.  It's obvious to me that he has been working hard at dealing with his weakness from last year- the pitch away and particularly the one up and away.  With his shorter arms, it's difficult to generate power the opposite way.  He's made an adjustment and proven he can hit the ball away now.  Here are his Statcast zone numbers from 2024.  With that monkey off his back, I think he's ready to go nuts for a little while. 
pooks137 - Thursday, June 13 2024 @ 03:27 PM EDT (#447491) #
Dante Jr who apparently goes by Alphonse now because he hates his father, has been posting on social media for at least two years alleging abuse.

Interesting that Bo's brother Dante Jr. would choose to go by Alphonse instead if the whistleblower account for the Cooperstown event is in fact verified.

Because as the above 1992 archived Sports Illustrated archive notes, "Alphonse Dante Bichette" is the full legal name of both father & son as well.

I suppose it's more practical to change your preferred moniker to an existing legal name. But it still seems like a frying pan/fire situation.

christaylor - Thursday, June 13 2024 @ 03:32 PM EDT (#447492) #
The only "news" website that has reported the allegations against Bo's dad has been noted as making news out of Reddit posts and tweets. Color me skeptical, but 80-90s typical parenting on the mean was more abusive than today.

On another son-of-a-player I am surprised yet again at the number of outlets suggesting that Vlad is a trade candidate with nary a mention of Bo.

Mere rumors in each case (not equating the two) but folks talk and insiders hear enough to glean possibilities.

Does anyone think, even if he flat out refuses to negotiate before FA, that the team would trade him? Maybe this off-season they could sell it, but even then... for the casual fans things like HR derby champs and performance mean as much as WAR.
John Northey - Thursday, June 13 2024 @ 03:34 PM EDT (#447493) #
With Dante Bichette I always wondered (well, pretty much was certain) if he was on steroids when he played - he was one of many in the mid 90's who went from 'meh' to all-star after a winter where they talked about improved workouts, etc. although he had the added bonus of going to Colorado. Pre-Colorado he had a 91 OPS+ then at age 29 had a career best 117 (remember OPS+ factors in ballpark) and never was sub 100 again in his career, peaking at 31 with a 130 and 2nd in MVP voting despite just 1.2 bWAR (just ahead of Greg Maddux having a 9.6 year and Piazza being himself - insane offense for a catcher with a 1.006 OPS vs Bichette's 984 while playing in Dodger Stadium vs Coors Field). Geez, those voters back then were brain dead.

Bottom line - given the likely drug use back then it wouldn't shock me in the least if Bo's dad did beat Dante Jr or that the Jays would've kept him away from the club once they figured it all out. The Jays have always hated controversy (see Roberto Alomar, Yunel Escobar, Roberto Osuna for good examples), they'll put up with drug use (Melky Cabrera) but not domestic abuse or anti-gay slurs (in public) and I suspect lots of other things that would hurt their public image.
dalimon5 - Thursday, June 13 2024 @ 03:49 PM EDT (#447494) #
Vlad has been excellent this year and I can't see him being traded this year. I don't see them trading him next year either.
greenfrog - Thursday, June 13 2024 @ 04:09 PM EDT (#447495) #
It wouldnít surprise me if Bichetteís family issues are affecting his play. I think Alek Manoah and Rick Ankiel are two others who apparently had some issues with an extremely strict, or maybe abusive, father. Both players went from being high performing on the field to having significant performance issues early in their careers. To be clear, this is all speculative.
dalimon5 - Thursday, June 13 2024 @ 04:15 PM EDT (#447496) #
You'd have to ask if it's weighing on him now then why didn't it weigh on him and affect his performance in the last few years?
greenfrog - Thursday, June 13 2024 @ 04:22 PM EDT (#447497) #
Well, Manoah and Ankiel were also fine until they werenít.

See the NYT article on Ankiel and his relationship with his father, ĎA Mound of Troubles.í
Gerry - Thursday, June 13 2024 @ 04:26 PM EDT (#447498) #
Dante Sr. has been around some. I thought he had been around from time to time even since 2020. Not as a full time coach but as a visitor who went on the field.
John Northey - Thursday, June 13 2024 @ 04:28 PM EDT (#447499) #
dalimon5 - agreed 100% I don't see Vlad being traded unless some GM is so in love with him that they give up their farm for him. IE: a top 10 prospect plus. Hmm... Washington is in a similar situation to the Jays but in the NL with 2 of the 3 WC's in reach vs just 1. Just 1 1/2 back but with a 1B in Joey Gallo who is injured and just a 77 OPS+ when not. Their #1 DH is Joey Meneses with a 77 OPS+ so they need bats even more than the Jays do. They have 2 top 10 prospects in OF James Wood (21 year old LH, power at a 70 level 355/465/596) and OF Dylan Crews (RH in AA 266/339/432 12-3 in SB-CS). If they were nuts enough to offer Wood for Bo or Vlad I'd take it in a split second. They have 2 more top 100 guys in Brady House (#36 3B in AA 21 years old, 236/313/424) and Yohandy Morales (#88 1B/3B 22 in AA 238/315/346). Given current stats only Wood seems worth chasing, but generally top 10 guys like Crews are better than the stats suggest. If the Jays give up there is potential there. Their catchers also suck (199/248/314 overall) so Jansen would be VERY tempting for them. But is Washington willing to risk top prospects for a run this year? Time will tell.

More likely the Jays won't trade anyone from the ML roster (outside of edge guys like Vogelbach who might just be released) in a desperate effort to stay relevant this year and next. As a fan I hope they can make it all work as I'm in no rush for a rebuild (while it is fun dreaming about prospects, they rarely work out).
SK in NJ - Thursday, June 13 2024 @ 04:38 PM EDT (#447500) #
I actually think Vlad is going to be extended now. Rogers is going to want some goodwill as team performance plummets, and Vlad is both the face of the franchise and someone with enough upside to justify an extension. He's basically a singles hitter now and still a 130 wRC+ player. Bring in a hitting coach or two who actually likes hitting home runs (Mattingly isn't one of those guys) and I think he has another gear in him. Even if he doesn't, there's value in keeping him around even during a semi-rebuild if that's the direction they decide to go (or more likely are forced to go).

It's Bichette that should not be extended, and really should have been moved prior to this season. That isn't hindsight, I brought it up then as well. Two years of control left on a player who wants to test free agency and has an extremely risky hitting profile should have been a trade candidate. Can't turn back time and now it might be the wrong time to trade him given his performance.
dalimon5 - Thursday, June 13 2024 @ 05:22 PM EDT (#447501) #
The only teams I can see overpaying for Blad would be Seattle and San Diego and with the payroll limits of both it's unlikely (both teams shed salary this off season). Those two Games are the outside the box thinkers willing to give up a ransom for players with elite profiles.

I think this team can trade Bo at the deadline if he improves his performance and restock their farm and still contend for a wildcard. IKF to SS, Vlad to 3B and Votto to DH. It can be done, in a video game kind of way.
Magpie - Thursday, June 13 2024 @ 05:22 PM EDT (#447502) #
[Bichette Sr.] had the added bonus of going to Colorado.

Did he ever, and he had begun his career in Anaheim and Milwaukee which were not good places to hit. Before he went to Colorado I had thought of him as Jesse Barfield-lite - the same general skill set, at a lower level. Dante hit .358/.394/.641 at Coors over his career, and in the one season that seems to me to be out of context with the rest of his career (1995 - the rest seems normal enough) he hit .378/.398/.755 at Coors. Vinny Castilla's splits were even more insane.
John Northey - Thursday, June 13 2024 @ 06:40 PM EDT (#447503) #
Magpie - great description of Bichette Sr - Barfield lite - he was thought of as an OF with a strong arm at the time (his defense though was rated very poorly by any statistical measure). His biggest year was 1995 - 2nd in MVP (undeserved, but back then RBI's was what voters loved) while hitting an obscene 378/398/755 with 83 RBI at Coors, and a nice but not 'wow' 300/329/473 45 RBI on the road. sOPS+ of 194 at Coors, 115 on the road - clearly his swing was built for that park. Lifetime 358/394/641 at Coors - pretty much the best hitting park in modern history. He actually hit better at 3 parks - Monterrey Mexico (1 game - 4-5 with a HR), Bank One in Arizona (now Chase Field) 403/443/758 over 70 PA, and Comisky I in Chicago (pre-1990 park) 462/500/692 just 14 PA. His worst park was Exhibition Stadium (pre-dome here) 167/154/250 over 13 PA but an 877 OPS at SkyDome. Go figure.

Bichette Sr might be a good case for the ability of improved confidence helping a player - once he had that home park to fatten his numbers he hit better everywhere it seems. What surprised me though is he had 31 bunt hits in his career over just 46 PA. Guess everyone expected him to hit for the fences so they played waaaay back.

Back to our Bichette - Bo this year in high leverage has been a plus - 333/429/417 over 42 PA, but medium he goes down to a 656 OPS and low he gives up with a 543 OPS. Read somewhere that he sucks when ahead this year and it is true - 232/386/268 when ahead in the count vs 232/237/432 when behind. His average exactly the same if ahead or behind is weird, as is showing more power when behind in the count. This suggests he isn't picking the right pitch to focus on when ahead or is having trouble identifying it. Given how well he hits when it is pressure situations and when behind I wonder if there is a focus issue of some kind, perhaps he needs that pressure to do well. Impossible to say for sure, but it is interesting none-the-less.
dalimon5 - Thursday, June 13 2024 @ 08:05 PM EDT (#447505) #
One last note on Biggio for me. It might be the move that this team needed to change the security blanket that the players seemed to have.
dalimon5 - Thursday, June 13 2024 @ 08:41 PM EDT (#447506) #
Jays are 33-11 when scoring at least THREE runs.
pooks137 - Thursday, June 13 2024 @ 09:45 PM EDT (#447507) #
One last note on Biggio for me. It might be the move that this team needed to change the security blanket that the players seemed to have.

I'm definitely on Team Trade Vlad/Bo and have a Firesale.

I'd point out though that "changing the culture/sending a message" was also the public narrative for trading away Lourdes & Teoscar two years ago.

James W - Thursday, June 13 2024 @ 09:48 PM EDT (#447508) #
The Yankees are 45-8 when scoring 3+ runs
dalimon5 - Thursday, June 13 2024 @ 11:17 PM EDT (#447509) #
James the point is that the Jays are below average in offense and all numbers indicate they should be able to score 3 runs per game. There's not many teams out of a playoff spot that can claim such a winning record if they can score 3 runs per game.

Pooks, the message sent when Lourdes and Teo were traded, to me, was "we value defense over offense." The message now is "perform or else." We've seen them move Bo and Springer down in the line up and DFA Biggio. I expect Springer to start playing only 4-5 times per week if he keeps struggling and Turner to be DFA'd in July if he goes ice cold again. Kirk has already been relegated to back up. The message is definitely strong with the DFA of Biggio that nobody is protected.
John Northey - Thursday, June 13 2024 @ 11:21 PM EDT (#447510) #
Most teams are very good when scoring 3+ runs.
  • Jays in 2019 (the last rebuild year) were 63-48 568 win%
  • 1985 (won 99 - allowed fewest runs in a full season) they were 93-31 750 win%
  • 1979 (lost 109) they were 50-58 463 win%
  • 2000 (allowed most runs) they were 83-50 624 win%
Basically a solid record when scoring 3 runs or more is an automatic unless you REALLY suck (see 1979). This years 33-11 is a 750 win% which matches the great '85 team which basically means the staff this year is doing as well as that one (peak Stieb/Key/Alexander/Henke/etc.) when given a few runs to work with. Just need to get those 3 runs more often (easier said than done).
Leaside Cowboy - Friday, June 14 2024 @ 12:30 AM EDT (#447511) #
For the second consecutive night, Texas reliever David Robertson strikes out Betts / Ohtani / Freeman in order.
scottt - Friday, June 14 2024 @ 08:15 AM EDT (#447512) #
It would be complicated to trade Bo. Especially during the year.
During the winter, they could trade him just to free salary to sign an elite bat like Soto or Alonso and replace him with a defense first shortstop.

I wouldn't mind if they had another go at Barger playing some RF/3B.
KK could be the guy to drop.

Petey Baseball - Friday, June 14 2024 @ 09:55 AM EDT (#447514) #
Forgive me if this has already been written here, but if the remote possibility of a "major teardown" happens, they won't do it at the trade deadline when the amount of suitors are a fraction of what would be available in the winter. I think the Padres found that out last season when they got a decent haul for one year of Soto.

Frankly, Magpie's point about the '98 Jays is well taken. I remember that season well, and I thought Gord Ash did a terrific job reshuffling the deck when he knew the Jays had some strong pieces (Clemens, Hentgen, Canseco, Green, Delgado) all having good seasons. I remember a four game sweep of Boston in August to pull within striking distance of the wildcard got the fan base excited for the first time in awhile.

I think the unfortunate thing is that Manoah got injured, so the possibility of trading Kikuchi for a bat midseason is remote. I'm not sure how this team reshuffles the deck. There will be no takers for Springer, probably, so the Jays can only hope they find a "your issue for my issue" trade with somebody.

I think if Mike Trout is traded, it's probably to the Yankees or possibly even the Cubs, who have the ability to take on salary and are trying to win it all this year.

scottt - Friday, June 14 2024 @ 10:39 AM EDT (#447516) #
The Padres didn't do a "major teardown". They currently hold the second wild card in the NL.

Manoah got injured when he was struggling. He could well have gone down what he was at his peak.
So, the impact is not as big.

The Yankees are not saddling themselves with Trout. They have a mega prospect named Jasson Dominguez who plays the outfield. It's already cramped with Judge, Soto, Verdugo and Grisham.

The Angels are terrible, but they are 4th in attendance in the AL between Texas and Boston.
The Cubs are a poorly run club with a 33-36 record. I don't know why the media push the Jays as seller and the Cubs as buyer, but there is no need to fuel that fire.

Ducey - Friday, June 14 2024 @ 11:29 AM EDT (#447518) #
"if the remote possibility of a "major teardown" happens, they won't do it at the trade deadline"

True. But they need to move Kikuchi, Garcia and Jansen or they get nothing for them. I'll be pretty miffed if this is the result.

As for the teardown, its more likely than you think. It would have been easy to sign Kikuchi or Jansen or other players to extensions. As it stands most of the core will be gone after 2025. If they dont plan on rebuilding then I have to wonder what the plan is.
uglyone - Friday, June 14 2024 @ 11:36 AM EDT (#447519) #
Apparently the jays have made season ticket renewal first payments due earlier this year - prior to the trade deadline.
Petey Baseball - Friday, June 14 2024 @ 12:50 PM EDT (#447521) #
Scottt: I never said the Padres tore down. I said they waited to trade Soto until the offseason because they correctly predicted they would have more suitors in the winter.

And I think you're incorrect. The Cubs are open for business and are definitely in win now mode. They just fired a popular manager and poached a better one from a division rival. They forked out huge money for Bellinger Suzuki and Iminaga. They were reportedly serious about signing Ohtani. The fact they're 33-36 makes it MORE likely they'd try and make a splash.

And I am positive if the cost of acquiring Mike Trout and making them World Series favorites was prospects, money, and telling Trent Grisham and Alex Verdugo to take a hike, they'd do it in a heartbeat. I suspect they'll be major players.
dalimon5 - Friday, June 14 2024 @ 12:54 PM EDT (#447522) #
"Apparently the jays have made season ticket renewal first payments due earlier this year - prior to the trade deadline."

I can confirm I received this request/deadline from the team two days ago as a season ticket holder.
Mike Green - Friday, June 14 2024 @ 01:15 PM EDT (#447526) #
The club is 7-4 when scoring 3 runs.  That's an excellent  record.  They're 0-4 when scoring 4 runs.  That's bad.  7-8 when scoring 3 or 4 runs is decent.   They are 25-3 when scoring 5 or more runs which is excellent.   And that's the one that is most indicative of something.  If this club scores 5 runs, usually the starting pitching and defence will almost always have them in the lead through 6 innings.  How many 3 run homers or grand slams has the club hit?  Let's see-  of the Blue Jays 54 homers, 23 came with runners on base, 18 with one runner on, 3 with 2 runners on and 2 grand slams, so 9% of their homers.  In the AL, 304 of the 2132 homers were 3 run homers or grand slams.  That's 14%.  It's hard to score 5 runs in a game if you're not hitting 3 run homers and you're getting on base noticeably below league average, and you're not stealing bases or taking the extra base. 
Glevin - Friday, June 14 2024 @ 01:20 PM EDT (#447527) #
Barger up, Vogelbach DFA. Finally. If you can't hit,at least create some roster flexibility.
uglyone - Friday, June 14 2024 @ 01:43 PM EDT (#447528) #
Nice. He's old enoughbthat dallying in AAA won't help much.

The other guys with plausible call up utility now are Lukes and Jimenez (if healthy), but neither of them are as urgent.
SK in NJ - Friday, June 14 2024 @ 01:48 PM EDT (#447529) #
Good to hear about Barger. Hopefully he gets playing time over Springer and Turner (and not Davis Schneider). A lineup that includes all of Schneider, Horowitz, and Barger would make the season more fun to watch. Whether it impacts the results on the field remains to be seen.
dalimon5 - Friday, June 14 2024 @ 02:01 PM EDT (#447530) #
Nice to see some urgency from this front office.

If they can also find a way not to give away 4-5 wins a year as Jon Schneider is won't to do, well that would be real swell.
scottt - Friday, June 14 2024 @ 02:11 PM EDT (#447533) #
Jimenez is pretty urgent since he's on his last option.
It's going to be hard to make the roster next year with 0 experience and could easily lead to being traded for cash.
scottt - Friday, June 14 2024 @ 02:13 PM EDT (#447534) #
Turner is hot over the last 2 weeks. Bo is cold again and hitting under .200.
Springer is hitting .175. KK is even worse.

John Northey - Friday, June 14 2024 @ 02:42 PM EDT (#447536) #
Good news to clear out Vogelbach - he might be a good coach someday, but right now as a pure hitter he isn't worth it.

For June...
  • 120+ wRC+ (IE: very useful bat): Horwitz (164), Varsho (141), Turner (130) - these guys need to be in the lineup everyday right now.
  • 100-119 (IE: solid bat): Clement (119 - 15 PA), Vlad (109).
  • 70-99 (IE: not hitting but not a disaster): none.
  • 40-69 (IE: sucking bad): IKF (63), Bo (58), Kirk (57), Jansen (51), Vogelbach (49)
  • sub 40 (IE: show them which end of the bat to use, please!): Schneider (33), Springer (19), Kiermaier (17), Biggio (-100)
So we quickly see the issue - Schneider's bat went ice cold, Springers somehow got worse, as did Kiermaier's. Jansen & Kirk both are having troubles with the bat now (argh!), Bo keeps having them, IKF hitting like expected pre-season.

So now the ideal lineup has to be Horwitz-Varsho-Turner-Vlad (I expect Vlad-Turner for 3-4 though) then get everyone else in there who is needed. Bo, one of the catchers, and Springer are probably locks no matter how ugly it gets. Schneider has done enough to be given some leeway to recover from this slump but should be moved down a bit until he breaks out of it. I expect they'll go Kirk/Jansen-Vlad-Horwtiz-Barger-Bo-Schneider-Varsho-Springer-Turner for now with Springer getting a few more days off to get IKF in at 3B and Barger to RF. It'll be interesting to see how it goes for the next few weeks until the All-Star break (which Jay(s) will go? Vlad might get voted in, Berrios might make the staff, I'd be surprised if others make it - Varsho and Schneider and Garcia the only other real candidates).
uglyone - Friday, June 14 2024 @ 02:50 PM EDT (#447537) #
Jimenez is only 23 how can he be on his past option
Marc Hulet - Friday, June 14 2024 @ 03:15 PM EDT (#447539) #
Jimenez will very likely qualify for a fourth option similar to Otto Lopez.
scottt - Friday, June 14 2024 @ 06:03 PM EDT (#447548) #
Lopez was lost on waivers on April 4.
He played for the Jays in 21 and 22.
Jimenez was added after putting great numbers in the AFL in 21.
I don't know what ground there would be for an other option.
He mostly lost time before they put him on the reserve roster. 

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