Moffatt, you've got Stones to choose those lyrics after such an unSatisfying day yesterday,

Both Canada and the Jays came close yesterday, but they just couldn't get no satisfaction. The Jays season will keep on rolling; The Canadians are done, hopefully they won't console themselves by getting stoned.

In the battle of the Bauxite Staffers, Mick beat Jonny G by 3/10ths of a... minute.



I was going to quote a song from "Jesus Christ Superstar" today, but I thought better of it.

Can't see any place else to put this.. so pardon the Hijack

During yesterdays 8th inning of the Canada/Cuba game, Canada suffered possibility its worst 10 minutes in the history of the Olympics as the Canadians gave up 8 runs and their best shot at a baseball Medal, and two gold medal hopefulls crashed and splashed their ways to one silver between them...

as we wake this morning Canada is sitting with 7 Medals, tied for 20th overal (which isn't too bad) and sitting one behind, Poland, Bulgaria, Cuba and Michale Phelps.

GO Canada!

as we wake this morning Canada is sitting with 7 Medals, tied for 20th overal (which isn't too bad)

My guess would be that medal standings should correlate very well with GDP. Not GDP per capita, but the overall size of a country's economy.

In 2003 Canada's GDP was 12th largest in the world, just behind South Korea and just ahead of Mexico's. So 20th overall isn't too bad.

What does BJ's management have against Reed Johnson? It seems that he can put up quality stats but still always be on the bubble for playing time. He can hit, he can run, catch, throw, and has some speed and grittiness on the basepaths, but JP and co seem to see him as a temporary stop-gap player until Gross is ready. And I think (with all fairness to an injured Wells this season) he's been their most consistent outfielder in the last two seasons.

For those who missed it on the FAN this morning JP said:

- Wells will be about for "a couple more days". It's not serious and it's not the same injury as last time.

- They seriously want to change the turf at SkyDome. Godfrey is working on it. They're currently looking at what Minnesota uses.

- Despite the injury and surgery they're still very interested in bringing back Catalanatto next year. JP gave the definite impression that there have already been contract talks and that they are still ongoing.

http://www.simon.forsyth.net/olympicsGDP.html
COMN for medals by GDP.

What does BJ's management have against Reed Johnson?

I don't think they have anything against him. But just going on my personal observations, Johnson is best in small doses; he can do a great job filling in for somebody, but eventually pitchers figure him out. Other than a red-hot May, he's been pretty mediocre this year.

Reed's the perfect 4th outfielder: He can play anywhere in the outfield, he can mash lefties, and he won't drag the team down if he has to play every day while someone is on the DL. But everyone in the outfield right now has a higher upside than he does.

COMN for medals by GDP

Wow. I thought that was my theory. I had no idea somebody had looked at it in such great detail.

Economists are very bored people with too much free time. :)

Reed Johnson, 2004 versus an average major league corner outfielder (starters and backups), 2004

                AVG   OBP   SLG   GPA  SB%  SB/100 AB
Reed Johnson   .273  .328  .386  .237  67%  1.35
MLB LF + RF    .276  .357  .462  .276  69%  1.73

GPA is park-adjusted.

Wow, looking at the top 20 versus the bottom 20 on Paul D's list is... um... instructive.

Economists are very bored people with too much free time. :)

"Bored" people? I think you want to go with the gerund form of the adjective there ...

"Bored" people? I think you want to go with the gerund form of the adjective there ...

Oh yeah! If you say that again, I'll gerund you all the way to the adjective farm.

You and your fancy pants high priced Harvard words.

Batista has only allowed 17 homeruns in 170.2 innings, which is not a lot for an AL starter. There's lots of movement on his pitches, so one would figure that he'd have a better than average ball-in-play average against. It was .283 going into last night's game.

It's also relatively difficult to steal off him (8 for 18 before last night's game) and he induces 1 GIDP for every 9 innings pitched.

http://www.thewolfshack.com
There's lots of movement on his pitches, so one would figure that he'd have a better than average ball-in-play average against. It

Isn't the point of DIPS that it doens't matter how Batista pitches, we'd expect his average on balls in play to be about average?

Fun with spreadsheets:

Gabe Gross, while sporting a bad BA, is drawing walks at a higher rate than anyone else at this point.

Greg Zaun's been a lot better than I thought he was doing.

NAME	        PA	K/BB	BB%	K%	GPA
C. Delgado	384	1.9	12.5%	23.2%	0.271
Gregg Zaun	314	1.2	12.4%	15.0%	0.271
Vernon Wells	441	1.8	 7.9%	14.1%	0.269
O. Hudson	394	1.9	10.2%	19.3%	0.265
Alexis Rios	318	2.9	 5.7%	16.7%	0.254
F. Catalanotto	266	1.9	 6.4%	12.4%	0.252
Gabe Gross	 52	1.4	13.5%	19.2%	0.245
Reed Johnson	468	3.2	 5.3%	17.1%	0.244
Eric Hinske	500	2.1	 8.4%	17.8%	0.242
Chris Gomez	328	1.3	 7.9%	10.7%	0.240
C. Woodward	193	3.7	 5.2%	19.2%	0.214
Kevin Cash	180	5.4	 5.6%	30.0%	0.189
Total	        	2.1	 8.3%	17.3%	0.248

Hinske has me perplexed. Perhaps someone else can figure out the answer. Both walks and power are down this year, but so are strikeouts. What the hell is going on here?

Season	  AVG	  OBP	  SLG	GPA
2002	0.279	0.365	0.481	0.285
2003	0.243	0.329	0.437	0.257
2004	0.258	0.320	0.393	0.242
Total	0.261	0.340	0.440	0.263

Season	ISOBB	ISOSL	K/BB	  BB%	   K%
2002	0.086	0.202	1.8	12.0%	21.5%
2003	0.086	0.194	1.8	11.6%	20.5%
2004	0.062	0.135	2.1	 8.4%	17.8%
Total	0.079	0.179	1.9	10.8%	20.0%

Am I the only one who thought Randazzo's strike zone was complete garbage yesterday?

I was sitting up behind first base, looking square at the back of lefthanded hitters. About 20 rows up. He clle strikes against both Delgado and Zaun that were almost even with their shoulders crossing the plate - he only did it for Wakefield though, and only on knucklers. I think that he was just screwed up by the knuckleball, and called a few pitches based on where they were cuaght, rather than where they crossed the plate.

Delgado was pissed off, Zaun was furious.

Hinske has me perplexed. Perhaps someone else can figure out the answer. Both walks and power are down this year, but so are strikeouts. What the hell is going on here?

From what I have seen Hinske is not getting good swings, he is hitting a lot of lazy flyballs. His strength was always driving the ball into the gaps and he is not doing that this year. To me he looks confused. Hinske should go up there and react, I think he is thinking to much and trying to guess the pitch, and when it is not the one he wants he is in trouble. He is also swinging at a lot of fastballs that move away from him, think a left-handed Alex Gonzalez or Nomar.

We were in the outfield last night -- what started the Zaun flareup?

Those strikes were high. I was down the first base side. The were passing at the armpits, at the top. I think that this technically a strike but it wasn't called consistently.

Zaun said something to the ump when he was called out. I'm sure when he came out to catch, the ump started to tell him who was boss. Fortunately, the both calmed down.

Isn't the point of DIPS that it doens't matter how Batista pitches, we'd expect his average on balls in play to be about average?

Yes and no. The average on balls in play seems to be far more a function of defense than pitcher, but neither is totally irrelevent. The pitcher *does* influence whether or not a ball hit into play becomes a hit, just not nearly as much as most suspect. DIPS tries to paint a 'fairer' picture of what the pitcher should be doing, not a 'fair' one. No stat is fair. Some are just more instructive than others. Like any physical model, sometimes it's useful, sometimes it's useless, but it isn't a perfectly accurate reflextion of reality.

Generally, high movement pitches are less likely to be hits when put into play.

We were in the outfield last night -- what started the Zaun flareup?

He was called out on a strike on a pitch that was about 8 inches outside and just below his shoulders. Worst strike call I've seen all year.

He argues it a bit, then leaves. Next inning he gets behind the plate and the two of them start "discussing" the call from the previous inning. On TV you could very audibly hear one of them (not sure which one) say "I asked you a F***ING question..." before they turned off the behind the plate mic.

Called out on a bad strike call in the bottom of an inning, Zaun went out and started jawing at the umpire in the top of the next inning.

It was all very odd, as Randazzo has one of the smallest strike zones in the game. Hey, it could have been worse... it could be Charlie Reliford, who makes up his strike zone as he goes along.

Randazzo's a classic one for inconsistent application of the rules. He had a funny moment earlier this month when in the second inning, he suddenly told Mariner pitcher Bobby Madritsch to put on long sleeves to cover up his tattoos. What, did Madritsch suddenly gain tattoos between pre-game warmups and the second inning? Just last month, Randazzo tossed Rick Peterson after he told Peterson his time was up just as Peterson reached the mound to talk to Tyler Yates. The reason? Peterson didn't jog to the mound like Randazzo wanted him to. Peterson started talking to Yates and Randazzo tossed him. Peterson even got suspended for this, but the suspension was so ludicrous that MLB reinstated him.

The Zaun flareup was caused by a bad strike call. Zaun struck out looking to end the 2nd? inning on a bad call by the ump. So top of the next inning Zaun sets up behind the plate and starts yapping while in his crouch, the umpire said something back and they got into it.

The weird thing is during the broadcast the announcers go on and on about how hard the knuckleball is to hit and catch, but I don't recall them ever saying how hard the knuckleball is to call (for an umpire), while all the time Randazzo is blowing calls right left and center.

Earlier in the same second inning, Delgado took a pitch just as high (and perhaps outside) from Wakefield on a 3-1 count that he assumed was ball four. Carlos shook his said and had a few words for Randazzo before eventually drawing ball four a couple pitches later. So at least Randazzo was consistent in that inning. I expected the call to Zaun to be a strike.

Both of those pitches started extremely high and did come down at the last moment... but I didn't think either was particularly close.

From the Griffin article:
"I don't know," Towers said, with a quick adjustment of his tie (if, in fact, he had been wearing one).

What the hell? I was laughing when I read this because I had no idea what it meant. Was Towers actually adjusting a tie he wasn't wearing?

Wow, looking at the top 20 versus the bottom 20 on Paul D's list is... um... instructive.

some of that is "error margin".. if your medal count is small enough, or your GDP is small enough, weird disconnects happen..

if you look at large-ish contries with Western Style Ecomonies, the numbers are pretty close... (US, Canada, UK, etc)

same for countries that have a history of Althetics, and little or no ecomony at all.. (Kenya, Ethoipia, Ukraine)

the suggestion is if you want to win lots of gold medals, send all your food to your athletes, ... that sounds more harsh that its meant, but its the idea..

What the hell? I was laughing when I read this because I had no idea what it meant.

Whenever Rodney Dangerfield would say he got no respect, he'd play with/adjust his tie:

Isn't the point of DIPS that it doens't matter how Batista pitches, we'd expect his average on balls in play to be about average?

Yes, and that's why DIPS is not the complete picture. Further research has found that major league pitchers do influece the rate of hits against in play, though the scale is not as large as some people might think.

For example this study indicates that pitchers who face more major league hitters (i.e. the good pitchers are more likely to be above average than below average). There is the problem of selection bias, but it shouldn't account for all the difference.

This data looks at 20 great pitchers of recent times and shows that 17 of them were better at preventing hits in play than their teammate pitchers.

Man, can you imagine the kind of medal count Billy Beane could run up if he was premierer of Eritrea?

Oh yeah! If you say that again, I'll gerund you all the way to the adjective farm.

Actually, I wasn't playing grammar cop; I was insulting your profession, suggesting that "Economists are very bored people" shoudl read "Economists are very borING people." But your response is funnier out of context.

use "Gerund" properly in a sentence: "I watch Seinfeld beause Gerund 'Laine are really funny."

From the Hardball Times stats pages, Batista FIP is 4.79 (actual ERA 4.41), not including yesterday. FIPS does not account for GIDP rates or stolen base success rates, so when we do try to account for that, his ERA should cease to be a surprise.

RE: Eritrea.

I was looking through the CIA World Factbook and found out that they keep literacy figures for men and women (that is, split figures). Canada does not, on this site, at least.

We're behind yet another country!

Actually, I wasn't playing grammar cop; I was insulting your profession

I know that silly pants, that's why I was offended. Jeez. :)

http://www.battersbox.ca/archives/00002279.shtml#comments
Guelph won the IBL Championship yesterday. I've provided mini-recaps of what was an entertaining series on the IBL Championship thread. COMN if you are interested in reading.

More fun with the CIA...

Can anyone name the Canadian ambassador to Washington? No cheating.

Robert - I have only recently begun to accept the idea behind DIPS. At first it seemed insane, but now I've come around. I still don't try to convince my friends who are only casual baseball fans of its merits. (I try to stick with OPS over AVG and stuff)

Now you're telling it's not true? Or only slightly true? I really don't want to have to change my baseball paradigm again.
:)

Can anyone name the Canadian ambassador to Washington?

I wasn't aware Canada had ambassadors to each state.

Uh, Mick... I hate to say it, but "boring" in "Economists are boring people" isn't a gerund.

It's a participle.

DIPS is not literally true, but the range of skill in preventing hits on balls in play is not large. That's because the parks, hitters and fielders all play significant roles and there isn't a lot left over for pitchers to influence.

Very funny, Thomas. ;)
Actually, they have a consulate general in Seattle, so I'm half-right.

Anyone for the ambassador? Anyone? The winner gets a picture of him.

**

Gerund vs. participle

Gerund: a noun formed from a verb
Particple: a word derived from a verb and used as an adjective or a noun

Boring is an adjective, so Craig is the winner. He wins a picture of the first result I found with a GIS on boring economist:


No comment.

Anyone for the ambassador? Anyone? The winner gets a picture of him.

I know now, but I had to Google him. I originally thought it was still Raymond Chretien, then realised he'd probably been gone from the post for many years. I was right.

Creggers, I know ... but sentence diagramming requires a different software install.

CN ambassador:
Michael F. Kergin

boring economist

That cat may win the Nobel Prize next year. She's very famous. And boring. Terribly boring.

Name	IP	ERA	FIP
Frasor J.	53.3	2.87	3.76
Ligtenberg K.	45.3	5.96	3.54

Interesting stuff.

That cat may win the Nobel Prize next year.

Not if Hammy Hamster's "Economics Wheel" theory has anything to say about it.

Not if Hammy Hamster's "Economics Wheel" theory has anything to say about it.

Ahh, yes, I've seen Hammy's invention of a new type of calculus:

Uh oh...I'm not sure who to award the prize to.

Craig says he knows the guy, but had to Google him, then never named the man.

Mick named the man but also provided a link to wha just happens to be the first site which pops up on a Google search for "Canadian ambassador."

I declare the contest a tie.


And yes, I am extremely bored. Also boring.
Which reminds me: when I was in French class, I was always taught "ennuyeux" was the word for boring AND bored. As in, Je suis ennuyeux parce qu'il est enneyeux.

That's not the case, is it? And apologies to all for my terrible sentence there; I'm sure that qualifies me as a Anglo dog if there is such an animal.

Don't you think Craig and I could settle the tie amicably, say, in a home-run-hitting contest? I'll take the Yankees facing the Blue Jays pitching; I will leave Craig the reverse.

I'll take the Yankees facing the Blue Jays pitching; I will leave Craig the reverse.
Delgado, Wells, Menechino, Hudson vs. Vasquez, Mussina, Lieber, and Brown.
Sheffield, Matsui, ARod, Posada vs. Batista, Lilly, Halladay, and (uh-oh) Towers.

If only we could simulate this event.

Proof #2985352 this is the season from hell: Adrian Beltre is the first ML player past 40 HR in 2004.

Considering there's probably 150 people hanging around just waiting to tell me Beltre is on 40HR exactly, I'll make the correction myself: Beltre is the first ML player to 40HR.

Dump Lieber and Halladay (he's urt, right)? Insert Mo Rivera and Any Random Jay Reliever. And we're ready to go ... Oh, and I love Jorge Posada, but in a homer-hitting contest, he sits in favor of Tony Clark or Ruben Sierra.

Oh, and drop Mussina for El Duque.

Brown, Hernandez, Vazquez and Rivera. NOW we're ready to tee off.

I'll take the Yankees facing the Blue Jays pitching; I will leave Craig the reverse.
Delgado, Wells, Menechino, Hudson vs. Vasquez, Mussina, Lieber, and Brown.
Sheffield, Matsui, ARod, Posada vs. Batista, Lilly, Halladay, and (uh-oh) Towers.

Where did you get that idea from? The lineups are

Delgado, Wells, Hinske, and Hudson vs. Sturtze, Heredia, Prinz and Proctor
Cairo, Wilson, Lofton and Flaherty vs. Batista, Halladay, Frasor, and Bush

So how does this HR contest work? I'll simulate it on MVP baseball :)

Where did you get that idea from?

I just took the leaders in slugging percentage for this year and the pitchers with the most games started.

But I like Craig's lineups.

Speaking of which, Jobu, I aim to buy the game soon. By Labour Day.
Thought you'd like to know, since you basically sold me on it.

One last question about the game, though. When you start the second season in a franchise, is there a new schedule in place? (My current game uses the 2003 one forever, and it gets boring playing the Yankees at the beginning, then going to Cinci and St. Louis, etc.)

Seriously all, if you can lay down some ground rules and agree on players I'll simulate the contest and end the debate once and for all.

Rob: Luckily, the randomly generate a new schedule every year. Including spring training!

Watch out for "regression" after each spring training though. Some times it takes off up to 20 pts (out of 100) in certain categories (ie. Contanct, Speed...etc) for created players. Anyone else have that problem?

But I don't want to win. I didn't know who it was. Mick can have the picture of Bud Selig.

Isn't Beltre a free agent at year end? If so, what is DePo supposed to do with him? I'd be terrified either way if I was the GM...

But the Selig pic signifies the tie, not the winner. ;)

Since Craig has conceded, Mick wins the original prize, but since he (presumably) had to Google it, it will be a small picture.

Ambassador on Andro:


But I still think we should have the simulated homer-hitting contest; each manager picks two position players and two pitcher for his own team and one of each for the other team ... the three pitchers on each side each throw three innings ... the hitter alernate until 27 outs are recorded, where anything not a home run is an out ...

I ma trying to decided whether to saddle Craig with VInni Chulk or Kerry Ligtenberg.

About MVP: Valerio de Los Santos crashed and burned in my second season's progression. Not that it should be totally suprising, but still, it's worth mentioning. I've heard that the spring training games don't affect progression, but I don't know that for sure. The funniest change I've seen is Babe Ruth gained something like 20 points in speed, and I'm in the middle of aiming for a 40 / 40 season with the Bambino (it's one of my 1 year stretch goals).

What bugs me more than the progression is how generic relievers demand ridiculous amounts of money. Chad Bradford wants 2,000 points in my game, and Bruce Chen is making 1,300 points.

Also according to the game, Andres Galarraga is the best post-Carlos option for the game. Easily the best bargain in the game.

I ma trying to decided whether to saddle Craig with VInni Chulk or Kerry Ligtenberg.

ha ha ha, both in the game, so that should be fun if you guys can work something out.

Thats some pretty impressive progression 6-4-3. Personaly I have experienced nothing but regression with my players, but maybe that's because I'm the tampering type and up lots of stats and the computer is probably trying to cheese me off.

Batista is beginning to worry me.

K/9: 4.90
BB/9: 4.11

Meanwhile, Josh Towers:

K/9: 3.99
BB/9: 1.74

Batista is 33 years old, so I don't expect his command to get much better. He's still been decent this year, but I worry about next year and the year after. He has better stuff than Pat Hentgen did this year, but he makes me about as nervous.

ha ha ha, both in the game, so that should be fun if you guys can work something out.

Is Ligtenberg actually in your version of the game? He isn't in mine. I figured that had something to do with him not being in the union (as a holdover from his days as a replacement player) and therefore not being covered by their licensing agreement with EA. I never thought to check whether guys like Shane Spencer, Cory Lidle or Matt Herges were represented.

Oops, my bad. I could have sworn Kerry was in the game. A quick check reveals that he is not.

Looks like you'll have to appoint a different patsy in the game for your opponent ;)

That's weird. I never even noticed that Kerry wasn't in the game. Goes to show how much I like him.

Batista doesn't worry me much. He is what he is, a poor man's Kelvim Escobar.

Plus, I think he may be hurting. I started to more closely observe his wind up and follow through after the info came out that he may have hurt his pelvic area. He has a unique motion and delivery. Almost as if he's trying to spin on the ball by putting torque on his body. I don't know how to quite describe it. He may be compensating for some aches.

It would be interesting to see if this is the same pitching delivery he had in previous years.

Well, until the real homerun showdown gets worked out. Here's a random one I set up thats a free for all. Step right up Bauxites and place your bets.

First batter to bat for a mile in total distance wins.

Red Corner: Paul Konerko VS Randy Johnson
Yellow Corner: Luis Gonzalez VS E------ L----

Who do you take?

The E------ factor is too much; Luis Gonzalez in a landslide.

Last year, Batista pitched 193 innings and had 142/60 K/BB
This year, Should Batists pitch 193 innings, he's on pace for 106/86

I'd just like to know what happens, historically, when a pitcher of Batista's age drops so much in K's and walks so many more batters.

I'll tkae Konerko. The E------ factor is no match for the Lefty glitch factor.

Jobu: strange as it sounds, that's exactly what it is. Every player in the game has a star power ranking of * to *****. If you improve a player (for example, change starter Vinny Chulk to Relief Ace The Vincredible Chulk), the game will think that you're cheating, and adjusts the player's ratings back to where his star power level puts him.

6-4-3: Yeah I figured that much. Cant believe the computer thinks turning Sparky into a 5 tool player every year is cheating... tsk tsk

And the first pitching battle came to a surprisingly close decision, but L----'s cellphone must have gone off durring the game as he coughed up a homerun meatball to Luis to win it on the last pitch!

Luis: 1 Hr, Lgst: 356 feet, Total: 5280 feet
Konerko: 8hr, Lgst: 466 feet, Total: 5077 feet

James you win a picture of an injured yet valiant Luis Gonzalez



Next contest:

Orlando Hudson VS jamie Moyer
Willie Bloomquist VS The Doctor

PLACE YOUR BETS

I absolutely despise the homerun contest in MVP.

Konerko out homers Luis 8-1 and loses? Stupid. They should at least give you options to do it how you please. I like the old format. Homerun = homerun. Non-homerun = out. What was wrong with that?

I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who is scared of a potential Batista implosion in the next two years. His BB rate and K/BB rate scare the crap out of me. He'll be 34 and 35 in the next 2 years, making nearly $5.0M a year.

The Angels appear to have a logjam at 1B/OF, and Kotchman and McPherson seem to be on the outside looking in (both are 1B, McPherson's defense at 3B apparently isn't good enough to play there everyday). Could one of them be had for BB-Batista? It would solve our problem at 1B, and give us $4M to spend on a safer starter, if there is one available, or the ability to take back a bigger contract in a trade. Would Anaheim do it? Probably not, but their owner likes to throw money around, so who knows.

Batista's peripherals give me the willies.

Actually, you ruined the surprise but for the next round I was gonna make it most homeruns win. But for now, the betting kiosks are still open for O-Dog Vs Moyer, and Bloomquist Vs Doc.

Put me down for saying that Oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo-Dog will beat Wee Willy.

I will say O-Dog too, unsure if the game has programmed in O-Dog's struggles vs. lefties (especially last year). Plus, if they have they certainly have top notch Halladay in the game.

Actually, Halladay really sucks in the game.

For me, anyways. When I play with him, I can throw no-hitters with Halladay all the time, but simulating he usualy has an ERA around 5.00

So I'll take Willie B.

O-Dog does have a decent platoon split. He's around 80 contact, 50 power against right handers, and 40s in contact and power against lefthanders. Come to think of it, why did I pick Orlando? I think I said "He'll be batting righthanded, he'll be able to hit homeruns!"

Halladay does well for me, but that palmball that they gave him was inexplicable. Almost as bad as having Gaylord Perry without the spitter.

yeah, they dont make the Doc up to snuff in this game. But they also apparently arent fond of Willie B.

Willie: 2 hr, Lgst: 429, Total: 4286
O-Dog: 3 hr, Lgst: 446, Total: 5280

Congrats 6-4-3 and Thomas. You get to split this picture of the O-dog feeling up Trish Stratus with a disgusted looking guy in the background. (ahhh the perks of professional ball)



Next round gets tricky. It still stops after a mile, but most homeruns win.

Pujols VS Schmidt
"Dowd" VS Morris

Yeah, to be perfectly honest, I have no idea what a palmball even is. Who throws a palmball?

Yeah, to be perfectly honest, I have no idea what a palmball even is. Who throws a palmball?

I used to throw a pretty nasty one, but I think you meant in terms of major leaguers. :)

Neither did I, until I googled it, and got this:

"The palmball works a lot like a knuckleball, because the ball has little or no spin on it, so when his palmball is juking around the plate, it can be unhittable, although it comes in slow enough where, if left too straight, could be nailed by major leaguers."

The article mentions that Jose Mieses (a Brewers farmhand) throws it in real life, but I think he's out of baseball. Apparently Tony Fiore throws one as well. In the game, the only non-Halladay pitcher I can think of that throws it is Satchel Paige.

I have no idea what a palmball even is.

To answer your question: There's quite a few ways to throw it. I used to have a grip similar to a two seam fastball, but I used to cram it into my hands, thus palming the ball.

When it works it's like a poor-man's knuckleball. Having your palm on the baseball slows the ball down but it also (if done correctly) allows you to release your whole hand off the ball at the same time, thus the ball is released with almost no spin.

All Scabs are missing in the game. No Lightenburg, Lidle, Millar, etc...

I was playing MVP last night and realized I suck at the game. I often lose by more the 5 runs in Pro mode even after I make the comp have -50 power and -50 contact with the sliders. I also adjust my OF speed to +30 and I still suck.

I bought an Action Replay 2 weeks ago so I could get updated rosters but for some stupid reason the new rosters wouldn't work. People told me the Action Replay memory card doesn't work with all the games but I don't want to fork over another 40 bones for a Microsoft one. At least the AR card works for NFL 2k5 and James Bond: Everything or Nothing.

I'll take Pujols. Dowd, that young left fielder for the Giants who is not even close to resembling Barry Bonds is good, but Pujols is a beast in this game. That, and I think that Pete Rose will run onto the field and assault Jo(h)n Dowd before he can hit any homeruns.

Thanks for the info.

If you want some fun, create a player in MVP named keegan paterson (all lowercase.) If it works, it creates a guy with poor ratings, but with a HUGE bat. If you make contact with the ball you will usually hit it around 700 ft. Quite fun.

First, what's a Trish Stratus, and why is its face all weird? (This is probably one of those things I should just Google...)

Second, the best palm ball I've ever seen was Bryn Smith's.

Third, here's a reason why everyone should read Batgirl every single day:

Perhaps haunted by the specter of the sucking-time(s), the Twins seem to feel a pathological need to win every game, because as they've seen already this year, losses feed off of each other like the angel fish Goober and Sooz bought once. Pretty soon, you've got a six-game losing streak and one well-sated fish in your aquarium. As arrScott put it so well, "When they don't win, instead of saying, 'Well, that's that; can't win 'em all,' they blame themselves and get all tense. The toxic mix of anger, shame, and tension creates a feedback loop of suckiness."

The problem, I think, is that the Twins are more emotionally fragile than a group of seventh grade girls during the swimming unit at gym class. I mean, first they had to hear about how terrible they were for years, and Tom Kelly was so distant and never told them that he loved them, and then Bud Selig told them they looked fat in their uniforms and they're an aberration anyway, plus they play baseball in a giant Teflon dinner roll that everyone makes fun of, and all the marquee players are being outgunned by a freckle-faced idiot savant and a Canadian stoic with a bad perm.

One of the very best bloggers out there.

Jobu, put me down for Pujols as well. It's an iron rule of video games: the guy on the cover is always an absolute monster.

I've noticed Pujois so far this season has escaped the EA cover curse. But I have a feeling the curse will hit him during the playoffs.

Yeah, I forgot all about the cover curse!! Weird how he's escaped it... must be one of the firsts.

Or did he? In a shocking turn of events the mysterious new comer Dowd defeats Pujols 6 - 5.

The final match of the evening:

Nomo VS Mesche
Sasaki VS Ishii

Craig's right that Bryn Smith had the best modern palm ball that I can remember. It's odd that it should be described as a variant of the knuckleball because I don't remember Smith's behaving in that way at all. His palm ball acted like a 12 to 6 curveball that came out on a fastball plane (by that I mean that it didn't have the upward action of a 12 to 6 curve) or a big forkball (not a splitter, it had a definite offspeed/change element to it). I don't remember any fluttering movement or lack of ability to direct the ball like a knuckleball.

Nigel, what Mike means (I think) is that is has the same action as a knuckle-curve, which it does. A palmball is too fast to act like a flutterball, so it tumbles like a hard knuckler. Or, as you say, a forkball.

I didn't read all the previous posts, I should have said that Smyth had the second best modern palm ball after Moffat's "equalizer" (I never saw it, but the stories I've heard ... wow)! :)

Craig - now you've hit on a question I've often wondered about. When Halladay was throwing the knucklecurve, I really couldn't tell the difference between it and a normal curve (other than Halladay's had a pronounced 12 to 6 action to it). Because of that, I had always assumed that a knucklecurve was thrown the same way as a curve (and essentially the same pitch) other than the fact that the ball was held in the figertips the way a knuckleball is rather than the more traditional way of throwing a curve. Is that not right, is a knuckelcurve really a different pitch than a traditonal curve?

The most successful palmballer of the modern era is probably Dave Giusti, 100 wins and 145 saves, mostly pairing with Kent Tekulve out of the Pittsburge 'pen, or, going for the hockey pun and addressing a member of the Roster, make that last prhase, "out of the Pittsburgh 'pen, Gwyn."

I'll take Nomo (because it's good Nomo, not getting-lit-up-in-AAA Nomo), and Sasaki, the best roster blunder in the game.

Cuba's just won the gold medal game versus Australia. What the heck does Sawkiw have against Cuba? First was his meltdown after the bad call at 1st in the semifinal game against Canada, now as Cuba is celebrating their win, he said "And you can see the arrogance and the swagger . . . you just know that they're celebrating in Havana." Can you imagine anyone calling it that way if the Yankees won the World Series? Way to go, Warren.

Is that not right, is a knuckelcurve really a different pitch than a traditonal curve?

It's a not-quite-100% completely different pitch. There are a variety of grips that pitchers use to throw "knuckle curves". What usually distinguished them from regular knuckleballs (flutterballs) are (1) there is spin imparted from the release; and (2) you don't push the pitch like most knuckleballers do.

The K-curve is, though, thrown with a curveball-like grip, but with the index finger curved up so that the ball rests on the knuckle. (Easiest to see this if you've got a baseball handy - hold it in your curveball grip and then But you don't "snap" a knuckle-curve like you do a curveball, you let it come naturally off the grip like a fastball. The grip puts a little bit of sidespin/topspin on the ball and the lack of wrist snap (and often the speed you throw at) means it's slower than a fastball.

I think most pitchers release the k-curve off their middle finger, but the index knuckle will always push the ball along some after release (unless you have some seriously flexible fingers!)

Because you don't see the ball "rise out of the hand" like a traditional curveball (which is because of the hand and wrist action on the ball) the k-curve does not look like a curveball until it begins to tumble. Makes it hard on the hitters.

It's an exceptionally hard pitch to control, because of the need for precise positioning of the ball in the hand, and the fact that if you end up with fastball-type backspin, it just floats up there like a dolly and the hitter will bash it into the next county. Once you get good action on it, though, the k-curve produces ground balls by the barrelfull.

The knuckle-curve and palmball are the ONLY breaking pitches that should be taught to young pitchers (say, before their mid-teens). Both pitches can be tremendously effective, but because they don't have the wrist-torquing, elbow-mangling and shoulder-twisting effects of the curveball or slider or circle change (they are released like a fastball, with a straight wrist and natural motion) they don't wreck arms. Just my $.02; I wish someone had told me as a kid.

Oh, so to finish answering your point, the k-curve is thrown with sort of a curveball grip, but otherwise it's a totally different beast.

Can you imagine anyone calling it that way if the Yankees won the World Series? Way to go, Warren.

Yes, sure I can. Any Boston commentator would unleah similar vitriole against the Yankees after a Yaztrzemski popout, or a Boone homer, for instance.

Craig, thanks for taking the time with that detailed description, that was very helpful. One less thing on my infinitely long list of things I didn't know about the universe. It's always a good day when the list is one shorter (of course that raises the very challenging question of how I know the list is one shorter when the list is infinitely long) but I'll save that for another day!

Thanks for playing everyone, Nomo it was with a final score of 1 hr to none..... like a jays game.

that raises the very challenging question of how I know the list is one shorter when the list is infinitely long

That's easy... always cross your items off the top of the list, never the middle or the bottom. :)

Yeah, really. I know that Sawkiw has no love lost for Cuba, but that's ridiculous. Congratulations Cuba on a well-deserved victory.

This is a test of the EmergencY Blue Jays Pessimism System ...

Cuba vs. Toronto in seven game, neutral site, neutral umpire series ... who wins?

hey you guys mentioned Lidle and Millar as scabs. or replacement players. Are you telling me they were used as replacement players during a strike and then stuck around or what ?

http://www.wizkidsgames.com/sportsclix/mlb/figuregallery.asp?unitid=6063
COMN for the newest figure to be added to the WizKids/Topps MLB Sportsclix game. Whoops! And he's not out for another three weeks.

hey you guys mentioned Lidle and Millar as scabs. or replacement players. Are you telling me they were used as replacement players during a strike and then stuck around or what ?

Someone please correct me if anyone's memory is more precise, but any player who crossed the picket lines in 1995 to attend spring training as replacement players were deemed scabs by MLBPA. I think they were all minor league journeymen and guys who were playing independent ball at the time (Ligtenberg was in that category, I do believe, and he received some brief notoriety for it when he came up as a rookie with the Braves). Some of these guys impressed enough to get contracts, and some of them have made it to the bigs over the years - Millar, Lidle, Rick Reed, Benny Agbayani, Keith Lockhart, Damian Miller and Jeff Tam come to mind. None of them are allowed in the union, they're not part of the licensing agreements, the union generally doesn't support them in grievances, and they may not receive full pension benefits (I'm not too sure about that - U.S. law may not permit MLB to discriminate against non-union members in this regard).

I vividly remember Rick Reed making the Cincinnati Reds and his teammates refusing to talk to him or shake his hand or visit him on the mound -- until he threw a one-hit shutout in his first start. Then, allasudden ...

Actually, now that I think about it some more, I'm pretty sure that the replacement players can use the grievance procedures, even though they don't have to pay full union dues.

Does anyone know whether each player's union dues are equal to, greater or less than the royalties they receive from the sale of merchandise? That I think is the biggest loss to the replacement players, apart from the cold shoulders they used to get from the rest of the union members. I haven't heard anything about this for awhile, so I wonder if Ligtenberg (and Lidle and Tam last year) were still getting mistreated by the other Jays in the clubhouse. I sort of doubt it, given that a good chunk of the players weren't professionals in 1994-1995, but youneverknow.

http://www.petitiononline.com/donnelly/petition.html
COMN to see a petition that was started to try to force the MLBPA to 'acknowledge' Brendan Donnelly as a World Series Champion with the Anaheim Angels in 2002. He was a replacement player as well, and the official World Series merchandise conspicuously omitted his name from the team roster.

Sawkiw has no love lost for Cuba

Earlier, he said the Cuban players were "chirping in Latin".

Sawkiw has no love lost for Cuba

Earlier, he said the Cuban players were "chirping in Latin".

Well no wonder he dislikes them, if they were putting on airs like that!

Hmm..everyone is talking about MVP Baseball? Good thing I bought it today! ;)

I love the pitcher showdown. Doc's kicking ass.

Using page 16 of the Neyer/James Guide to Pitchers as my source, there are at least three different pitch types that have been called knuckle-curves:

1) Dave Stenhouse actually put his knuckles on the ball and threw it like a fastball. It would have a part knuckleball and part fastball rotation. It went straight, then would dive down and Stenhouse claims he threw it about 82/83, 6 MPH less than his fastball. Neyer/James compare it to knuckleballs thrown by Freddie Fitzsimmons and Jesse Haines.

2) Burt Hooten held the ball in a "knuckleball" grip (i.e with the fingertips), but instead of maintaining the bend in the fingers, he would straighten them and push hard at the release point. This creates overspin (not the minimal spin a modern knuckleballer strives for). No description is given for the movement of the pitch.

3) Mike Mussina and many other pitchers have thrown a knuckle-curve that Neyer/James think should be called a spike-curve. Don Sutton probably threw an identical pitch to Mussina's though Dandy Don's was just called a curve. This pitch is thrown like a regular curve but with the index finger raised and dug into the ball to provide leverage. The ball dives and "knuckles" a bit. Hence the misnomer.

Nigel, what Mike means (I think) is that is has the same action as a knuckle-curve, which it does. A palmball is too fast to act like a flutterball, so it tumbles like a hard knuckler. Or, as you say, a forkball.

Depends how you throw it. I used to grip mine really tightly, so it did act more like a flutterball. If you don't choke it so much, you will get more velocity on it, so it will be more like a hard knuckler.

I should have made that more clear. :)

he said the Cuban players were "chirping in Latin"

Oh, someone's got to send that to Ryan Wilkins.