Batter's Box Interactive Magazine Batter's Box Interactive Magazine Batter's Box Interactive Magazine
There was a brief discussion in yesterday's QOTD thread about the inimiatable Steve Goldman of the YES Network taking a shot at Alex Rios ("the next Sil Campusano"), leading Box GM Jordan Furlong to formulate today's ...

Question of the Day: Who was the most overhyped Jays rookie ever? And building on that, who were the most overhyped rookies, regardless of team, of all time? (Rule clarification: Reds and Tigers hyped by Sparky Anderson are not eligible for consideration. Sorry, Chris Pittaro.)
Friday QOTD: Hartung, Hurdle and ... ? | 160 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
_Shrike - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 02:30 AM EST (#3005) #
Mark Whiten or Glenallen Hill.
_dp - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 03:02 AM EST (#3006) #
I second Whiten and Hill. Though watching them play in Syracuse, the hype was understandable.

Ryan Thompson had a lot of hype and did absolutely nothing, but did net the Jays David Cone before flopping with the Mets. The Jays really cranked out outfield prospects in those days- Derek Bell, some others I'm forgetting...

What the hell happened to Marty Jansen?
_J.D. Clubbie - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 05:05 AM EST (#3007) #
Another pair of former Jays that should be mentioned are Mauro Gozzo and Alex Sanchez.
_Magpie - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 05:25 AM EST (#3008) #
It's hard not to go with Campusano, and the hype came straight from the Jays brain trust. In order to accomodate this phenom (who had just had .260 at AAA), the Jays moved two position players (one of whom happened to be the league MVP) and basically let Cecil Fielder go for nothing...

Even when Rob Ducey outplayed Campusano in the spring of 1988, Gillick and Williams would not be denied. He would be the centre fielder.

Ranks very very high on my list of All-Time-Dumb-Moves made by Jays management.
_Ben - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 05:56 AM EST (#3009) #
From a somewhat left coast perspective the two overhyped prospect I can remember would have to be Ariel Prieto and Todd VanPoppel. I remember being a kid and thinking that these two were sure fire hall of famers, bound to bring the A's years of respectability, instead they brought massive problems and no wins at all.

On a more recent note I feel that Kevin Youkilis is waaaaay overhyped. I think he's a good ball player and will be an above average major leaguer, but the way folks are talking, he's the best thing since sliced bread and I'm not buying it. Regardless of all this I picked him up last year on the BBFL team.
_Fozzy - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 07:51 AM EST (#3010) #
According to Rotoworld, the Dodgers have signed former Jays farmhand Aquilino Lopez to a minor league contract and invited him to spring training. Best of luck to him in the Dodgers organization.
_Jim - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 08:10 AM EST (#3011) #
Mike Kelly?
_Andrew S - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 08:37 AM EST (#3012) #
In my lifetime it's Van Poppel, and I don't think it's even close. I've never seen a player hyped like that.
_Smirnoff - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 08:52 AM EST (#3013) #
Brien Taylor
Craig B - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 08:55 AM EST (#3014) #
At least these guys all made the majors for at least two cups of coffee.

Drew Henson is a guy who didn't even do that.

But the most overhyped prospect of all time is probably David Clyde.
Craig B - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 08:55 AM EST (#3015) #
Taylor's a guy who was overhyped, but to be fair, he was doing very well (IIRC) until he got hurt.
_Marc - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 08:59 AM EST (#3016) #
http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/TorontoSun/Sports/2005/01/21/905623-sun.html
COMN - Here is a great Sun article from Steve Simmons about the importance of Sportsnet picking a great TV play by play announcer, to replace Faulds. Apparently Jamie Campbell's name is being mentioned, although he has little, if any, baseball calling experience.

I think we should start a petition to bring Dan Shulman back to the Jays. That man knows baseball, he knows the Jays and he is great at what he does!
_Jim Acker - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 09:04 AM EST (#3017) #
Three words:

Lou

Thornton

Junior
_Kieran - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 09:04 AM EST (#3018) #
From the Jays system...some hyped prospects that didn't turn out (taking it back a decade or so):

Sil Campusano - was supposed to displace Moseby in CF
Alex Sanchez - was supposed to be a frontline starter
Eddie Zosky - "amazing arm" was supposed to make him the SS of the future
even Manny Lee could be considered...lots of feathers, not much chicken.

the aforementioned Whiten and Hill, although compared to the previous bunch, they had serviceable careers with some highlights.

Actually, come to think of it...the Jays have had "the outfield of the future" hyped a few times since the days of Bell/Barfield/Moseby.

There was Hill/Whiten/Felix...then Cruz/Green/Stewart...then Rios/Gross/Wells...hopefully one of these trios sticks!
_Jim Acker - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 09:08 AM EST (#3019) #
Here is a great Sun article from Steve Simmons about the importance of Sportsnet picking a great TV play by play announcer, to replace Faulds

It's a terrific article, and it's point that's been said here many times too. I really hope the Jays are listening, and I hope the route they take will be to hire a professional play by play man, as opposed to a jokester who's picked because he'd be more appealing to the passive fan.
_Chuck Van Den C - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 09:11 AM EST (#3020) #
I'm quite sure hell has frozen over. It must have. I don't think I've ever agreed with Steve Simmons before. On anything.
_Four Seamer - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 09:22 AM EST (#3021) #
Simmons is right in theory, but if Shulman can't be lured back, then what? There are no quick fixes to this problem, either. Ultimately, the Jays and Sportsnet have to identify a talented voice that over time grows into a Tom Cheek or Vin Scully-like presence. And for that, they need not only to be astute but be lucky - lucky in that whomever they choose doesn't depart for greener pastures like Shulman did after learning on the job for several years. And speaking of Shulman, what experience did he have before TSN hired him? He was just a radio host on the Fan, doing Jays Talk, just like Wilner is now.
_dp - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 09:25 AM EST (#3022) #
Hill was a lot better than I remembered- pretty much raked from '98-'00 as a 33-35 year old. Almost 100 career stolen bases too. For some reason I thought Whiten turned out as the better hitter, but they were about equal, with Whiten being out of the game a lot earlier. I guess disappointment is the wrong word.

Like a lot of people, I never undertood any of the hype around Henson.

Taylor was really indicative of how sad the Yankee organization was at the time- he was pegged as Franchise Saviour the moment he was drafted, then hurt himself in a bar fight. This was around the year of the no-hitter, when the Yankee's guy (Tim Leary, not the acid shamen Tim Leary) threw one and lost. They just seemed doomed- Neon Deion, Mattingly becoming a singles hitter, ect, then their #1 pitching prospect gets hurt in a bar fight with his brother.
_dp - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 09:29 AM EST (#3023) #
Forgot about Junior Felix- what happened to him? Held his own in the majors at 21, out of the game by 27- and after a good year with Detroit, where he hit .306/.372/.525...
_Smirnoff - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 09:31 AM EST (#3024) #
Taylor's a guy who was overhyped, but to be fair, he was doing very well (IIRC) until he got hurt.

LOL. Yeah, but he got hurt in a barfight. Tough to feel bad for him. :)
_Smirnoff - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 09:32 AM EST (#3025) #
In a few years, we may be able to add Cust to this list.
_csimon - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 09:39 AM EST (#3026) #
My choice is Campusano, but we can't forget any of the "can't miss" catching prospects--Matt Stark, Greg David and Brian Milner
_Blue in SK - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 09:44 AM EST (#3027) #
Does anyone remember how Felipe Lopez was being touted in the same breath with the Tejeda?
_Blue in SK - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 09:45 AM EST (#3028) #
"the Tejada" ...oops
_Jordan - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 09:48 AM EST (#3029) #
I'll second the vote for Eddie Zosky, whom I also nominated yesterday. I have a very clear recollection of the front page of the Toronto Star the day after the blockbuster Alomar-Carter-McGriff-Fernandez trade in December 1990, and the three front-page quotes were from Pat Gillick, Padres GM Joe McIlvaine, and Eddie Zosky's mother.

For the record, Zosky's line in Double-A in 1990 was .271/.303/.367 with a 26/72 BB/K rate in 450 AB. He ended his career in 2000 with a 160/.173/.260 line in 50 big-league at-bats. Even for all that, Campusano does give him a serious run for the title.

Forgot about Junior Felix- what happened to him? Held his own in the majors at 21

My personal theory is that Felix was nowhere near 21 - probably closer to 24 when he arrived. Thanks to abysmal plate discipline, his .328 OBP in 1990 would turn out to be his career high.
_Prisoner of Ham - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 09:48 AM EST (#3030) #
I really hope the Jays are listening, and I hope the route they take will be to hire a professional play by play man, as opposed to a jokester

Better Jamie Campbell than Mike Toth. (shudder)
_dp - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 09:50 AM EST (#3031) #
Does anyone remember how Felipe Lopez was being touted in the same breath with the Tejeda?

[raises hand and runs away]
_Jordan - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 09:53 AM EST (#3032) #
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1106261410739&call_pageid=970599119419
Looking for a analyst for Jays' broadcasts? Here's your candidate (COMN).

Amusing and irreverent as he might be, the idea is a really bad one. What the Jays need more than controversy and fun in the booth is professionalism and insight.
_MatO - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 09:54 AM EST (#3033) #
It was common knowledge that Felix was nowhere near 21 when he joined the Jays.
Mike Green - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 09:58 AM EST (#3034) #
http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/college/050121numbers.html
BA reports a new trend in US collegiate baseball- Canadian catchers in Division 1 schools. COMN.

My personal theory is that Felix was nowhere near 21 - probably closer to 24 when he arrived. Thanks to abysmal plate discipline, his .328 OBP in 1990 would turn out to be his career high.

Not quite. Junior had a .306/.372/.525 season in part-time play for Detroit at age, ahem, 26, and never played big-league ball again. I challenge anyone to find a player whose last season was so good, and who left at such a "young" age, leaving aside the tragic Austin McHenry and Lyman Bostock cases of course.
_Grand Funk Rail - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 09:58 AM EST (#3035) #
Please, for the love of all that's good, NO JAMIE CAMPBELL.

Grand Funk out.
_coliver - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 10:05 AM EST (#3036) #
I'll stick with the Jays:

1. Sil Campusano: I just remember Tony Kubek raving and raving about him, much like he did about Tony Fernandez when Tony was in Syracuse. I think Gare Joyce's book "The Only Ticket Off The Island" described the fall of Campusano best--"one day it was like he was running in the sand..."

2. Jimy Kelly: Epy Guererro's 13-year old "Alfredo Griffin look alike". Epy was selling us all on Kelly, but I remember Bobby Mattick never being sold on Kelly--there never was a year that he had a good season at the plate.

3. Jossephang Bernhardt: He was a Gord Ash hype and it just didn't work out. But, boy, did both Ash and Dave Stewart give him every opportunity. I had the opportunity to talk to both gentleman about him and they would praise his talent and potential. Both of them used the same words when they spoke to me "Jossephang will come around, he is very young". In fact, they moved him from shortstop to third base to first base in order to put less pressure on him. I saw him play a great deal in St. Catherines in 1998 and in 1999 and while he did have some physical talent, he looked overwhelmed at times and never seemed like he was enjoying the game like his teammate, Domingo Estevez (he did not have a great deal of talent, but he got everything he could out of it).

I don't think Lou Thornton was overhyped, in fact, the Jays hyped "problem children" such as Campusano, Hill, and Felix nuch more than solid citizens such as Thornton, Rob Ducey, or Geronimo Berroa. Infield was the same way, "head cases" such as Jimy Kelly and Santiago Gargia were much more hyped than guys like Alexis Infante. There were a lot a "bad asses" on the Jays organization during the late 1980s, in fact in Ernie Whitt's book it is quoted that a scout said that one of the most difficult and undisciplined minor league teams in recent memory belonged to Toronto. I would believe that that would have been the 1988 Knoxville Blue Jays (Felix, Kelly, Hill, Baptiste, Stark).
_Marc - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 10:07 AM EST (#3037) #
The all-time Jays' rookie bust team (1987*-current). *When I started following the Jays. The list only includes players who actually played for the Jays...

P - Jeff Ware, Mauro Gozzo, Clayton Andrews, Denis Boucher, Edwin Hurtado, Jose Nunez, Steve Cummings, Jose Silva, Pete Munro, Paul Spoljaric, Alex Sanchez
C - Matt Stark/Sandy Martinez
1B - Kevin Witt
2B - Joe Lawrence, Domingo Cedeno
3B - Tom Evans, Howard Battle
SS - Eddie Zosky, Felipe Lopez*
OF - Rob Butler, Rich Butler, Geronimo Berroa, Sil Campusano
*still could amount to something

M. Whiten, G. Hill and D. Bell all actually had solid, albeit unspectacular, careers.
_Ryan C - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 10:07 AM EST (#3038) #
Between:

``I would be the *best* guy you could get," Lee said

and

Although he would have been the *best* choice, Jim Hughson won't be calling Jays games.

Im unsure of exactly who would have been the *best* choice, and I think the Star is equally unsure. But obviously they're clear on one thing, that whoever the best guy is, it's someone the Jays wont be getting.
_Jordan - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 10:08 AM EST (#3039) #
In terms of overhyped non-Jays prospects, Ryan Anderson has to get a mention, even if he was undone by injuries. Kal Daniels should receive a vote. And you have to consider pretty much any member of the Dodgers in the 1980s:

Greg Brock
Franklin Stubbs
Mike Marshall
R.J. Reynolds
Mariano Duncan
Tracy Woodson
Jeff Hamilton
_Hosken_Powell_F - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 10:15 AM EST (#3040) #
Eddie Zosky
Sil Campusano
Joe Lawrence
Felipe Lopez
Ron Shephard
Denis Boucher
Kevin Cash
_jsoh - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 10:19 AM EST (#3041) #
The all-time Jays' rookie bust team
[...]
P - Jeff Ware


You sure you arent quoting from the all-time Leafs rookie bust team? :)

He wasnt so much of a bust, but does anyone recall what happened to Tom Filer?

After that decent '85 for the Jays, it looks like he fell off the baseball map for 3 years, before resurfacing with the Brewers
_coliver - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 10:22 AM EST (#3042) #
For years, I have read and heard that Junior Felix was born in 1962, rather than the 1967 that always was listed. Now, that's a huge difference.

I never really believed Manny Lee's age either (1965), especially since his bio said that he attended one year of college in the Dominican before signing with the Mets in 1982. If my math is correct, that means he was a was just shy of his 16th birthday when he finished high school...hmmm...I think 1963 probably was his actual birth year.
Named For Hank - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 10:25 AM EST (#3043) #
"the Tejada" ...oops

There can be only one.
_R Billie - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 10:33 AM EST (#3044) #
Eventhough he went on to be a regular (although a poor one) in the majors for some years, Derek Bell sticks out in my mind as a guy the Jays' media guide was touting as a franchise player coming up.

Outside of that, I would say Eddie Zosky. Even before I knew anything about sabermetrics I could never see what was special about him as a player other than being able to throw a ball through a brick wall. I thought his being described as the heir apparent to Tony Fernandez was a joke.
_Jordan - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 10:35 AM EST (#3045) #
Not nearly enough Highlander references around here.
_DeMarco - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 10:40 AM EST (#3046) #
All-time overhyped Jay - Alex Sanchez, not only because he was over hyped, but because he was sooo bad.

All-time overyhypde Player - Ben MacDonald, while he did have some success, I was expecting the next great one.

As for Jamie Campbell being the next Jays commentator, I just don't like that idea very much. I'd like to see a knowledgable baseball guy with some presence. I would love to have Shulman back. Where do I sign the petition?
_Geoff - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 10:48 AM EST (#3047) #
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1106261410735&call_pageid=968867503640&col=970081593064&DPL=IvsNDS%2f7ChAX&tacodalogin=yes
Wow - I'm struggling to believe Richard Griffin actually wrote this article - he's more optimistic than 75% of Bauxites
_Jacko - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 10:54 AM EST (#3048) #
I think the Jays should arrange a meeting between Spaceman and Dan Shulman to see if they get along. If they do, they should offer a big pile of money to them to come do Jays broadcasts.

If Lee is anywhere near as funny in person as he is in print, he would be a tremendous colour guy.
_Matthew E - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 10:54 AM EST (#3049) #
Don't forget Scott Brow. They kept running him out there, and he kept getting hammered worse and worse... Brad Cornett, same thing. Flener.

I don't remember Zosky being hyped that much; most of the stuff I read about him suggested his best shot was about two-thirds of Russ Adams.

I do remember this song the morning crew on the FAN put together at one point during the '92-'93 offseason:

Zosky the shortstop
If his bad knee doesn't sag
And B.J. Bird
Will platoon at third
With Sojo, Coles and Sprague


...and so on. To the tune of 'Frosty the Snowman'. There was more but I won't inflict it on you.
Dave Till - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 10:56 AM EST (#3050) #
Campusano and Zosky rank as my two all-time Jays overhyped prospects.

Last offseason, when I spent time looking at Jays' minor league records, I wondered whether Campusano's age was a fiction. He peaked much earlier than most players do.

Felix wasn't an overhyped prospect: I seem to recall that no one had really heard of him before he burst onto the scene in 1989. He was an overhyped player, though, and quite possibly my least favourite Blue Jay of all time. He was, however, the fastest Blue Jay I ever saw.

Even if Rios doesn't work out, I don't think I'd rate him as overhyped. Not many people hit .352 at AA.
_Jordan - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 11:04 AM EST (#3051) #
Even though it's not quite the same situation as the Raptors, post-Vince Carter if the folks at the Jays have been paying attention at all to their round-ball confrères' recent rise without Air Canada, then the script for moving forward is there, for those who choose to believe.

What an incredibly bad sentence.

Beyond that, this is an unusually positive article by Griff -- or at least, it's not a relentless tap-drill of hammering negativity. Probably just chatting with the ever-upbeat Butterfield was enough do to bring that about. Still, I'll happily take one of these columns from Griffin no matter what the reason. He's essentially painting the best-case scenario for the Jays this year, and while that's nice to see, he also recognizes that even a best-case Jays team in '05 is going to have to fight hard for contention.
Mike Green - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 11:05 AM EST (#3052) #
Actually, Dave, I checked last year. The last player to hit .350 in the Eastern League before Rios was Vladdy. Mind you, Vladdy was younger and had better plate discipline and more power...I wouldn't want anyone to get the wrong idea. :)
Named For Hank - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 11:09 AM EST (#3053) #
I'm more interested in the announcer hunt than I would have been last year, since there's pretty much no chance that I'll pull off another 60 game attendance record in '05. I'm aiming for 20, but I'll probably top out at a dozen, unless little Theodore really likes the SkyDome.

Campbell's a fine announcer on Sportsnet News and so on. I just can't picture him in the baseball booth. Maybe Sportsnet should be looking for someone that we haven't heard before? Then we can't come in with any preconceived likes or dislikes. The new folks will still have to be compared to the Gold Standard of Tom and Jerry, but at least we won't be making Warren Sakiw Cheshire Cat jokes before the first broadcast.
_Rich - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 11:10 AM EST (#3054) #
Jose Pett has to be mentionned too, even though the most hyped has to be Campusano: 750K for a 16 year old Brazilian pitcher. Maybe that's why Labatt had to sell to Interbrew...
_DeMarco - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 11:12 AM EST (#3055) #
I do feel Campbell is an improvement over Rob Faulds, however my expectations are unrealist after having been spoiled with Shulman for years.
_Jordan - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 11:13 AM EST (#3056) #
He was, however, the fastest Blue Jay I ever saw

And there's an interesting debate as well. Felix could fly, but I'd like to see him in a 60-year dash with Dave Collins in his prime. And maybe have the winner race Otis Nixon.
_DeMarco - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 11:20 AM EST (#3057) #
And there's an interesting debate as well. Felix could fly, but I'd like to see him in a 60-year dash with Dave Collins in his prime. And maybe have the winner race Otis Nixon.

No love for former Jay Rickey Henderson?
Mike Green - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 11:23 AM EST (#3058) #
My memory of Dave Collins is fading quickly, but I don't remember him as being particularly fast by the time he arrived here. He was 30 years old. I know he stole 60 bases one season, but still.

In a 60 yard dash, my contenders would be Shannon Stewart circa 1998 and Rios. It'd be different for the time to first base contest- my money would probably be on Nixon.
_Jordan - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 11:24 AM EST (#3059) #
I never actually thought Rickey's raw speed was his most outstanding trait -- he was a tremendous baserunner, could read any pitcher like a Dr. Seuss book, and was amazingly good at rattling pitchers with his antics. But my impression was that while he was obviously fast, he wasn't necessarily a pure burner on a par with Felix or Collins. But others may disagree.
Dave Till - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 11:24 AM EST (#3060) #
When Felix first came up in 1989, any slow or medium-speed ground ball to the left side of the infield was likely to be an infield hit. And he once hit an inside-the-park home run, in Fenway, with a sore ankle.

Otis, Dave Collins, and Rickey were fast, but I don't think they were that fast.
_Magpie - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 11:24 AM EST (#3061) #
No one's mentioned Danny Ainge... til now, anyway.
_Jordan - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 11:24 AM EST (#3062) #
True, I'd forgotten that Shannon Stewart could run once.
_#2JBrumfield - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 11:25 AM EST (#3063) #
Felix could fly, but I'd like to see him in a 60-year dash with Dave Collins in his prime. And maybe have the winner race Otis Nixon.

I don't know if he was the fastest but I enjoyed watching Devon White running down fly balls or running the bases. Here's a blast from the past - anyone remember Ron Shepherd? He was a guy who could scoot as well. I always remember seeing him pinch run quite a lot.
_#2JBrumfield - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 11:28 AM EST (#3064) #
On the other side of the coin, who was the slowest Blue Jay of all time? My nominees would be Buck Martinez and Charlie O'Brien. It's not their fault. It just seems when you're a catcher, it means you run like you have a piano on your back.
_DeMarco - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 11:31 AM EST (#3065) #
http://toronto.bluejays.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/tor/stats_historical/tor_historical_player_stats.jsp?section1=1&statSet1=1&statType=1&timeFrame=3&baseballScope=TOR&sitSplit=&venueID=&teamPosCode=all&HS=true&timeSubFrame=0&&sortByStat=SB
COMN for the Jays all time stolen base leaders.

Anyone else find it funny that Ernie Whitt and Rickey Henderson are tied for 34th on the list. An arguement could be made for All-time best vs. all-time worst.
_Jim Acker - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 11:34 AM EST (#3066) #
Quick question, does anyone know how McGowan's been progressing in his rehab? Are people pleased/displeased about his progress? is he throwing? etc.
_Magpie - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 11:36 AM EST (#3067) #
Buck Martinez was probably slower than Charlie O'Brien even before he broke his leg. After that... oh, it was hard to watch. The shortstop and third basemen would set up so deep that the only way Buck could get the ball past them was to hit it over the fence.

Sometimes you figured that even if they had to relay the ball to first after a grounder to the left side, they'd still get him by a step and a half.

There have always been some slow catchers - Borders, Lance Parrish, Fletcher. For non-catchers.... Jeff Burroughs?

As for fast guys... Devon White's stride was so graceful that he never looked like he was running hard, and he didn't really have great base stealing instincts, but geez he could fly from first to third. Honourable mentions: Dave Collins, Alfredo Griffin, Junior Felix.
_Ryan C - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 11:37 AM EST (#3068) #
who was the slowest Blue Jay of all time?

Cecil Fielder maybe? It's conceivable that Myers this year might qualify as well.
_Smirnoff - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 11:40 AM EST (#3069) #
Are we ready to add Josh Phelps to this list? I'm not, but think we'd be missing something by not at least mentioning him.
_Blue in SK - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 11:41 AM EST (#3070) #
What no love for Weiner Milk as an option in the TV booth?
_Fawaz K - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 11:41 AM EST (#3071) #
Myers? Slow? He has an inside the park HR to his credit! Do your guys have that? I hope 'Flash' Myers gets the bulk of the catching duties this season so he can show those wheels off again.
Named For Hank - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 11:43 AM EST (#3072) #
It's conceivable that Myers this year might qualify as well.

Man, his inside-the-parker in '03 was a thing of lumbering beauty. We had tears in our eyes at the park that day.
_alsiem - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 11:44 AM EST (#3073) #
John Olerud has got to be the slowest. If you take away catchers (it must be the constant knee bending) and fat guys like Cecil, Johnny was slow.
_Jordan - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 11:44 AM EST (#3074) #
It almost seems unfair to list catchers in the slowest-Jay debate. In the non-backstop division, Cliff Johnson ran like a pair of statues tied together in a three-legged race.
Named For Hank - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 11:44 AM EST (#3075) #
What no love for Weiner Milk as an option in the TV booth?

That's improving the TV broadcast by downgrading the radio broadcast. Dunno if I'm all for that.
_DeMarco - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 11:45 AM EST (#3076) #
I am bias, I really enjoy Mike Wilner's reports on the FAN, in a large part because he knows a lot about baseball, he is a 'smart fan'. I would love him to get the job as commentor, but I'm not sure how he would come across to the average viewer (not so 'smart fan').
_Ducey - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 11:46 AM EST (#3077) #
I was thinking Phelps for most over hyped as well. BA poster boy now essentially released by two organiztions. It might be a bit early to write him off but doesn't everyone go to Tampa Bay to die?
_#2JBrumfield - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 11:51 AM EST (#3078) #
Man, his inside-the-parker in '03 was a thing of lumbering beauty. We had tears in our eyes at the park that day.

That was just as improbable as Ken Huckaby's inside the park job in '02 or Rance Mulliniks' in '91.

As for real speed merchants, Cesar Izturis seemed like he had good wheels.
_Kevin Maas - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 12:07 PM EST (#3079) #
Hey guys, remember me?
_JohnL - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 12:09 PM EST (#3080) #
When Felix first came up in 1989, any slow or medium-speed ground ball to the left side of the infield was likely to be an infield hit. And he once hit an inside-the-park home run, in Fenway, with a sore ankle.

The story was that in 1988, Felix had two bunt doubles in Syracuse. Then when he homered off his first-ever pitch in both AAA & the majors, the hype was on.
_Magpie - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 12:13 PM EST (#3081) #
As for most overhyped all-time anywhere... obviously Clint Hurdle comes to mind, SI cover and all.

Pretty much every prospect the Yankees came up with between 1965 and 1977 also qualifies: Jerry Kenney, Steve Whitaker, Ron Blomberg. Blomberg was actually pretty good but couldn't stay healthy...

Randy Ready... Brad Komminsk...Roger Salkeld...David Clyde...

Think I'll go with Hurdle.
_elston - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 12:14 PM EST (#3082) #
No contest, the slowest BJ of all time was Rico Carty.
_csimon - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 12:16 PM EST (#3083) #
If we're talking "slow" then we're talking Rico Carty and John Mayberry
_Frank Markotich - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 12:33 PM EST (#3084) #
For all the good things Pat Gillick did in the Blue Jays' formative years, the team's record with high first round picks was pretty dismal. Lloyd Moseby worked out well, but then you had Jay Schroeder, Garry Harris, Matt Williams (the pitcher), Augie Schmidt, Matt Stark.

I remember a long radio interview Gillick did in the mid to late 1980's. Somehow or other, Matt Stark's name came up. Gillick recalled that the Blue Jays had Roger Clemens tabbed as the best player available when their turn to pick came (9th overall in 1983). They took Stark instead because they felt the system was short of catching depth. Boston picked Clemens later that round (19th overall).

Ouch.
Gitz - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 12:45 PM EST (#3085) #
Lots of good names here.

More: Gregg Jefferies, Chris Brown, Sean Burroughs (still young, but awfully hyped), Dee Brown, Ben Grieve (OK, he won ROY, but again, very hyped). Others, but they escape. Alex Sanchez was a Donruss "Rated Rookie" about 74 times, or at least it seemed that way. Did he throw a pitch in the major leagues?

As for Van Poppel and Prieto, thank you, Ben, for bringing them up. Just the thing to ruin a nice day here in Seattle -- sun and upper 50s. Grrrrr. Prieto was just a complete bust, but at least Van Poppel managed to carve out a mediocre-to-decent career as a relief pitcher.
_Brian - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 12:49 PM EST (#3086) #
Rocket just got 18 million
_Brian - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 12:49 PM EST (#3087) #
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1972067
sorry, link above
Gitz - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 12:51 PM EST (#3088) #
$18 million? Phew! His kids will have a future after all!

(Seems a fair price, actually.)
_Donkit R.K. - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 12:51 PM EST (#3089) #
What's the dealio with Glenallen in 2001? Goin from a 600 SLG% in 300 AB to hitting like Moffat from one season to the next? Is there an injury in there, or did he just age in a serious hurry.
BTW, the sponsor banner for Glenallen at his B-Ref page makes me chuckle...
_Moffatt - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 12:53 PM EST (#3090) #
What's the dealio with Glenallen in 2001? Goin from a 600 SLG% in 300 AB to hitting like Moffat from one season to the next?

The sad part is that this didn't work in reverse: I didn't start hitting like Glenallen Hill.
_6-4-3 - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 12:57 PM EST (#3091) #
He might not be the most overhyped Jays prospect ever, but my favourite has to be Joe Lawrence. I somehow have managed to hang on to a lunchbox that was given away during the 2002 season. The lineup of talent that was deemed lunchbox-worthy is impressive: Wells! Halladay! Escobar! Hinske! Lawrence! Lawrence? Oops.

Of course, looking back at the team, the 2002 Jays may not have had anyone else to put on the box. Huckaby got most of the games at catcher, Berg was the starting second baseman, and the Esteban Loaiza era was just finishing up.
_John Northey - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 12:58 PM EST (#3092) #
Junior Felix. I still have dozens of his rookie card around somewhere as I thought he'd be a HOF player after that hot start and being just 21. Grrr. Some rumours later on had him listed as 10 years older than listed, although I'd bet on the 5 years someone mentioned earlier. As I recall he was found at a track meet by the Jays superscout in the Dominican, then taught how to hit thus explaining the great speed.

Interesting that his final game was right as the strike hit (August 11th 1994). One wonders why no one took a flyer on him afterwards. Wonder if he was blackballed for not crossing the line or something. I mean, c'mon, 306/372/525 with 13 HR over 301 AB's? Seems odd to end there.
_Mick - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 01:10 PM EST (#3093) #
This was around the year of the no-hitter, when the Yankee's guy (Tim Leary, not the acid shamen Tim Leary) threw one and lost.

If I remember correctly, that was actually Andy Hawkins, who gave up the most runs (4) ever in a complete-game no-hitter.

Jordan, Kal Daniels actually had a really nice career going with the Reds before he was traded to LA and got hurt; if we are making injurye xceptions above, you have to give one to Kal. Too bad he spent his career in the NL -- if anyone ever had the glove skills to be a full-time DH, it was Kal Daniels.

Didn't Collins actually steal *80* bases one year? No, I looked it up. "Only" 79 ... when he was with the Reds (the first time around), nobody in baseball could run with him but he did sort of fall off a cliff, career-wise. Jays fans should love Collins just because he was the centerpiece of the trade that brough Fred McGriff into TO's organization as a throw-in from NYY.

As for the Highlander "There can be only one Tejada" reference, should this concern current NYY infield prospect Ferdin Tejada?
_John Northey - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 01:10 PM EST (#3094) #
Clemens with one more year should move into 8th all time in wins (328 today, needs 14 to tie Tim Keefe). If he plays 3 more years though he could move into 3rd all time, behind just Cy Young and Walter Johnson. To do that he'd need 15 wins a season over those 3 years to get 373 (the number for Pete Alexander and Christy Mathewson). 3 years would add about 600 K's to his total putting him in eyeshot of 5000 (he is currently 683 shy) and staying ahead of Randy Johnson (just 156 back of Clemens right now).

I really hope Clemens does stick around (and is effective) for a few more years as it would be fun to have an ex-Jay reach pitching totals that only dead ballers and Nolan Ryan have achieved.

Btw, to get to 400 wins he would need 24 wins a year over 3 years or 18 a year over 4 years. Walter Johnson is just too far to reach though at 417 as I don't see Clemens playing 5 years. 4 is more than I'd expect, although 3 could happen. Didn't think we'd ever see someone with a real shot at 400 wins but if he wants to Clemens could potentially do it.
_DeMarco - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 01:14 PM EST (#3095) #
I'm personally glad that Roger Clemens is coming back for one more season. Even if I dislike the guy, he's good for baseball.
_G.T. - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 01:16 PM EST (#3096) #
He might not be the most overhyped Jays prospect ever, but my favourite has to be Joe Lawrence

Yeah, and I was so looking forward to years of hearing "Joe Lawrence? Gimme a break!" jokes... I guess he never did "blossom" into the player some had thought he would. Sorry. :)

As for over-hyped prospects, it's funny, there were times in their careers that both Lloyd Moseby and Roy Halladay looked like massively-over-hyped busts.

In the end, I guess Carpenter/Halladay/Escobar didn't (on the whole) give the Jays what some had hoped for. We can be thankful, though, that they accomplished far more than Wilson/Isringhausen/Pulsipher!! Remember when they were going to carry the Mets for years...? (I'm surprised nobody's mentioned them yet)
_coliver - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 01:21 PM EST (#3097) #
Remember when Jerry Howarth compiled those "Where Are They Now?" booklets sponsored by Benjamin Moore Paints?

What happened to Junior Felix would be a great one to be researched.

Also, Manny Lee: He played Opening Day 1995 for St. Louis went 1-1, made an error, got hurt (I think) and never played again.

"Where are They Now?"
Joe - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 01:36 PM EST (#3098) #
http://me.woot.net
You'd think Nolan Ryan could take more advantage of his name than what I found on a Google search:

"Nolan Ryan’s reputation for integrity and consistency as a professional baseball player carries through in the beef that bears his name."

- Nolan Ryan Beef
Named For Hank - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 01:37 PM EST (#3099) #
According to Google, $18 million will get you the following:

-Nixon's presidential tapes and letters
-Governor Schwarzenegger's house
-the Courtyard Marriott Hotel in Charleston, South Carolina
-All of the electrical lighting equipment that Arizona bought from Canada in the year 2000
-A really fast computer made by IBM for the US Navy
-Roger Clemens for one year

I dunno, Schwarzenegger's house looks pretty nice.
Named For Hank - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 01:41 PM EST (#3100) #
Joe, that link is priceless.

He built his baseball reputation on the precision of a perfect pitch, the unwavering discipline required for a long and successful career and high standards as he played by the rules with respect for the game. These are the same principles Nolan Ryan demands with beef that meets tough specifications and delivers a nutritious, delicious eating experience every time.

"Now, see here, Beef, you're not delivering a delicious eating experience every time! You're inconsistent, Beef, and Nolan Ryan will not stand for that!"
Named For Hank - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 01:48 PM EST (#3101) #
"I gathered up several of my ranching friends and enlisted some of the top meat scientists"
_J.D. Clubbie - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 01:58 PM EST (#3102) #
As for more potential Clemens accomplishments, here is one that will blow your mind: If Roger gets the two wins he needs to reach 330, then Clemens and Spahn will be the only pitchers born after 1887 to reach 330 career wins.

What will be interesting is if Clemens comes out and has one more huge year. What if he somehow gets enough support to win 22? Then he would be sitting there at 350 and suddenly coming back for 2006 might start to look enticing, with just 15 additional wins to pass three more pitchers plus Alexander and Mathewson looming not too far away at 373.

I would love to see a guy who is still performing at such a high level stick around and climb through the record books to a place so few have reached.
Mike Green - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 02:05 PM EST (#3103) #
The cattle never receive meat or bone meal products

All fastballs, no knucklers. If avoiding feeding chicken to beef makes sense to Nolan Ryan, how can it not make sense to the Canadian beef industry? :) He's a Texas legend, plus he's got the hat, to boot.

Incidentally, I'd much rather have Randy Johnson than Roger Clemens going forward. The differences between them over the last 5 years have been very large. Not that it would likely have affected the probable arbitration result.
Craig B - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 02:09 PM EST (#3104) #
It's conceivable that Myers this year might qualify as well.

Man, his inside-the-parker in '03 was a thing of lumbering beauty. We had tears in our eyes at the park that day.


Kent once described Myers' inside-the-park homer as the most exciting two minutes in the history of baseball. :)

The fastest Blue Jay I ever saw (in terms of top speed) was almost certainly Junior Felix. The fastest over 50 yards was probably Devon White. The fastest over ten yards, was probably Alfredo Griffin, who (provided his brain knew where he was going) accelerated like greased lightning for about five steps.

The base bast-stealer, though, was Otis Nixon. Unless you count Rickey, who wasn't at his best during his Toronto stint.

Paul Molitor was also an outstanding basestealer.

By the way, all this talk of speed reminds me of Cito Gaston, who is possibly the single greatest manager I've ever seen at managing the stolen base. Cito was consistently brilliant at ordering the steal attempt, for both success and maximum impact, and his teams' percentages bear that out.
_dp - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 02:10 PM EST (#3105) #
Phelps- I'm not seeing him as a guy you can write off yet. He's too young. And as "over-hyped"- his AA numbers were .275/.381/.527. At AAA: .299/.384/.672, with a home run about every 10 at bats. And he was a catcher. How can you not be excited about a guy who can hit like that? Even after last year, his career major league line stands at .269/.337/.480.

With the pipeline of talent the Jays had at catcher, it's amazing Zaun wound up being the regular in '04- Lawrence, Werth, Phelps, Cash.

Kevin Witt had a fair amount of promise too.

Is Joe Lawrence even playing anymore?
Mike Green - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 02:12 PM EST (#3106) #
If one ever needed persuasion that performance might not be the most important factor in the arbitration process, how about Casey Fossum? Ol' Case threw up a 4-15, 6.65 egg of a season for the D-Backs. He earned $345,000 last year, is seeking 1.35 mil this year and the Snakes are countering with a $800,000 offer.
_Joseph Krengel - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 02:13 PM EST (#3107) #
You know, I've been to cow college (Guelph University), and I recall no "meat science" program.

I'm surprised we're talking about overhyped Blue Jay's prospects, and nobody has mentioned Alex Gonzalez. I mean, he did go on to have a decent major league career; but he tops my list just because people STILL think he can play ball after 10 years of proving otherwise; except for one year where he with .292 in a bit over a month. I mean, people still treat him like a prospect. How else do you explain a multi-million dollar salary with a .392 career slugging percentage? What, a weak hitting shortstop is going to hit his stride at age 32?
_Moffatt - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 02:13 PM EST (#3108) #
meat scientist

Is that an actual job description? Do people have that printed on their business cards? And if so, would you giggle if someone gave you a business card that read:

Lance Uppercut

Meat Scientist

I know that I would.
_jsoh - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 02:22 PM EST (#3109) #
I'd much rather have Randy Johnson than Roger Clemens going forward.

I dunno. Everything that I've read so far suggests that its not beyond the realm of possibility that RJ's knee will go *sproing* in an irreversible fashion in the next year or two.

Say what you will, but Clemens has been in great shape the last several years.
Named For Hank - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 02:24 PM EST (#3110) #
I had an interesting moment this summer when I almost inadvertently insulted a friend's fiancee -- we drove out to New Brunswick for the wedding, and on the way into Fredricton we passed the Institute For Advanced Potato Research. When we met up with my about-to-be-married friend, I told him that we passed that place and how much we laughed, to which he responded, "Shhhhh, Vera's dad works there."

He's apparently a prominent Potato Scientist. And yes, he has a fry cooker in his office.
_dp - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 02:27 PM EST (#3111) #
If I remember correctly, that was actually Andy Hawkins, who gave up the most runs (4) ever in a complete-game no-hitter.

Hawkins, ok. I remember listening to that game (against the White Sox, who were no powerhouse at the time IIRC) and being just amazed at how many ways the Yanks found to lose. I kinda pulled for them back then because they we so pathetic and inept, the same way a Yankee fan probably pulls a little for the Mets now.
Mike Green - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 02:30 PM EST (#3112) #
Ya, that'd make me giggle. If the "Meat Scientist" didn't, the "Lance Uppercut" would definitely do it.
_dp - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 02:31 PM EST (#3113) #
nobody has mentioned Alex Gonzalez. I mean, he did go on to have a decent major league career; but he tops my list just because people STILL think he can play ball after 10 years of proving otherwise;

Yeah, the lack of development has been amazing. You'd think he would've learned to do something well. He came up at 21 after a damn good minor league performance. Had speed, power. I'm sure there's an alternate universe somewhere where he turned into A-Rod.
_Rob - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 02:33 PM EST (#3114) #
Joey Lawrence was last seen in Indianapolis (AAA Brewers) in 2003, hitting .204/.317/.299 in 43 games.

Yes, a .299 slugging percentage.
_actionjackson - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 02:39 PM EST (#3115) #
Overhyped Jays: Victor Cruz, Danny Ainge, Fred Manrique, Steve Davis, Stan Clarke, Jeff Musselman, Alexis Infante, Matt Stark, Campusano, Kevin Batiste, Francisco Cabrera, Steve Cummings, Mauro Gozzo, Alex Sanchez, Tom Quinlan, Eddie Zosky, Doug Linton (first go round), Scott Brow, Huck Flener, Darren Hall, Robert Perez, Howard Battle, Sandy Martinez, Paul Menhart, Jeff Ware, Felipe Crespo, Marty Janzen, Jose Silva, Jose Pett, Tom Evans, Kevin Witt, John Bale, Tom Davey, Anthony Sanders, Clayton Andrews, Pasqual Coco, Andy Thompson, Bob File*, Felipe Lopez*, Brandon Lyon*, Luke Prokopec, Joe Lawrence, Mike Smith *= still has time

Overhyped MLB Prospects: Drew Henson, Hensley (Bam-Bam) Meulens, Ruben Mateo, Ruben Rivera, Brien Taylor, Seth Greisinger, Josh Booty, Frankie (not Francisco) Rodriguez, Brian Barber, Brooks Kieschnick, Brad Komminsk, JR Phillips, David West, Bruce Chen, Angel Pena, Roger Salkeld, Ryan Anderson, Nigel Wilson (I guess he fits with Jays too, since they sold Florida on him), David Nied, Ben Davis, Chad Hermansen, Shane Andrews, Benji Gil, Brad Pennington, Rocky Coppinger, Kurt Ainsworth, Damian Moss, Todd Van Poppel, Joe Slusarski, Ariel Prieto, Chad Mottola, Darnell McDonald, Eric Anthony, Bill Pulsipher, Paul Wilson, Matt Beech, Scott Scudder, Mike Kelly, Brian Cooper, Dan Reichert, Andrew Lorraine, Tyler Houston, Ruben Amaro Jr, Matt Anderson, Josh Kalinowski, Jacob Cruz, Willie Banks, Reggie Harris, Matt Beech, Bud Smith, Marc Newfield, Alex Escobar, Tyler Green, Donnie Sadler, Gookie Dawkins, Pokey Reese (had to put 'em together), Ryan Minor, David McCarty, Greg Gohr, Mike Drumright, Dee Brown, Rob Bell, Jim Pittsley, Brian L Hunter, Jeff Juden, Billy Ashley, Luis Rivas, Adam Johnson, Chris Snopek, Mike Caruso, Scott Ruffcorn, George Lombard, Mike Frank, McKay Christensen, Jeff Branson, Dan Serafini, Benj Sampson, Derrick Gibson, DaRond Stovall, Ryan Bradley, Carlton Loewer, AJ Hinch, Dante Powell, Ken Cloude, Giomar Guevara, Bryan Rekar, Freddy Garcia (1B/3B/OF), Shane Monahan.

10 guys whose careers started out well and then what happened??:
Joe Charboneau, Carlos Febles, Bob Hamelin, Mike Harkey, Pat Listach, Tim Lollar, Kevin Maas, Jose Rosado, Justin Thompson, Jerome Walton.
_Nolan - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 02:42 PM EST (#3116) #
The base bast-stealer, though, was Otis Nixon. Unless you count Rickey, who wasn't at his best during his Toronto stint.

Alomar had an 81.74% success rate as a Jay and I, personally, remember him being a lot better of a base stealer than Nixon (Nixon had an 81.45%)...soooo, the numbers don't show much difference- I guess I remember it differently
_Mick - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 02:43 PM EST (#3117) #
the same way a Yankee fan probably pulls a little for the Mets now.

With all due respect to those of my relatives who for some unknown reason are Mets and Jets fans, I can personally foresee no circumstance in which I would "root for the Mets." (I even have to put that phrse in quotes in order to write it.) The 1986 World Series was agony for Yankee fans, and most of us, as I recall, when we realized there was not possible way BOTH teams could suffer awful heart-wrenching defeates, very (VERY) mildly rooted for the Red Sox, because at least then they'd have to shut up about their so-called curse.
_perlhack - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 02:46 PM EST (#3118) #
"I gathered up several of my ranching friends and enlisted some of the top meat scientists"

"I'm going to Bovine University!"
-- Ralph Wiggum
_actionjackson - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 02:46 PM EST (#3119) #
The moral of the massive missive is: "Don't believe the hype!" Oh, to have a crystal ball, but hindsight is not an option in pro ball. Just ask Philly about George Bell and Ryne Sandberg. (;
_Mick - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 02:51 PM EST (#3120) #
Justin Thompson

What happened to him? He fell shoulder-first into a paper shredder, then was traded with Coco Cordero and Frank Catalonoto for Juan Gonazlez. Thompson is now getting lit up as a reliever in Rookie Ball and the AFL.
_actionjackson - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 03:04 PM EST (#3121) #
The slowest Blue Jay ever: "The Beeeggg Mon" Rico Carty! (;
_Greg - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 03:10 PM EST (#3122) #
I'm not sure how much of an over-hype he was (I was 10 and went by what the Donruss Sports Card company told me rather than the national media) but Kevin Maas as the lock as Hall of Fame successor to Mattingly at 1B in NY...I never have checked up on him to see what happened to his career

Maybe he was only over-hyped within the confines of my Scarborough home...
_dp - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 03:11 PM EST (#3123) #
Mick-

"Pull for". "Root for" implies more effort than I actually put into it...

Plus, in the early '90s I had no cable (got Jays games on FOX for some reason), and lived in the middle of nowhere. The Yanks were all I could get on the radio...
_Greg - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 03:11 PM EST (#3124) #
Ah
Should have read
I see Maas is mentioned already
_Tyler - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 03:16 PM EST (#3125) #
Joey Lawrence was last seen in Indianapolis (AAA Brewers) in 2003, hitting .204/.317/.299 in 43 games.

Yes, a .299 slugging percentage.


At least he can take a walk...that's something right? Right?
_Matthew E - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 03:17 PM EST (#3126) #
Anecdote about Rico Carty: in Foul Balls, Alison Gordon's excellent book about the early Jays, she says that one year Carty was featured on the team poster, grinning from ear to ear as he knelt leaning on a bat the way ballplayers do in posters and on baseball cards. Clubhouse wit and future manager Tim Johnson put the poster up on the wall with the caption, "Here's Rico, running out a ground ball."
_Doug C - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 03:34 PM EST (#3127) #
As long as we're suggesting FAN personalities for the Jays TV broadcasts, how about Mike Hogan? He has the baseball background (I believe he pitched Inter-County calibre ball in Kingston), and he has the play-by-play background from football.

He's at least as good as any other available suggestion I've heard (although I'm not sure that's the most ringing endorsement).
_actionjackson - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 03:36 PM EST (#3128) #
Nigel Wilson's career line: 22 GP, 35 AB, 2 R, 3 H, 2 HR, 5 RBI, 9 TB, 1 BB, 21 K, .086/.111/.257. Wow, Florida's first pick in the expansion draft from the Jays sure turned out huh? Who's the poor schmuck that walked him?
_Jeremy - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 03:38 PM EST (#3129) #
Perhaps it's an oversight on my part, but I haven't seen Steve Avery's name come up yet. 47-25 W-L record from ages 21-23, the '91 NLCS MVP winning two 1-0 games against Pittsburgh, a lefty with good control. I thought he would be what Tom Glavine became.

This sig is just some printing.
Mike Green - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 03:39 PM EST (#3130) #
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/wire?section=mlb&id=1972146
The O's signed Steve Reed to a 1 year contract. COMN.

Reed is a long-time favourite of mine, and I'll bet the price was right.
_Jeremy - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 03:44 PM EST (#3131) #
One of either Dennis Springer, Mike James or Troy Percival is the schmuck who walked Nigel Wilson. I can't tell from Retrosheet, but my guess is James.
_Matthew E - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 03:46 PM EST (#3132) #
As long as we're suggesting FAN personalities for the Jays TV broadcasts, how about Mike Hogan? He has the baseball background (I believe he pitched Inter-County calibre ball in Kingston), and he has the play-by-play background from football.

He's at least as good as any other available suggestion I've heard (although I'm not sure that's the most ringing endorsement).


I always enjoy Hogan's work. I'd be happy, at least initially, if he got the job.
_actionjackson - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 03:49 PM EST (#3133) #
Yeah, looks like Mike James to me.
_DeMarco - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 03:53 PM EST (#3134) #
Nigel Wilson had some success in the Japanese league. Here are his stats
_Jordan - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 03:56 PM EST (#3135) #
I think Nigel easily claims the "most overrated Canadian Jays prospect," finishing ahead of Denis Boucher and Rob Ducey.
_Lee - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 04:05 PM EST (#3136) #
base bast-stealer

Best base-stealer?
_actionjackson - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 04:07 PM EST (#3137) #
Nigel Wilson: 35 AB, .086/.111/.257
Bob Buhl: 857 AB, .089/.129/.091

As you can see, aside from Wilson's pop, it's pretty close. However Bob Buhl won 166 games as a pitcher in 15 seasons.
Mike D - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 04:13 PM EST (#3138) #
I remember chatting with a Marlins scout in front of Camden Yards about Nigel Wilson in 1995. He told me, very bitterly, that it looked like someone had "stuck a hose in Nigel and inflated him until the meter read 'obese.'"

Then again, he told me Karim Garcia and Bill Pulsipher would be the game's next two superstars.
_actionjackson - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 04:20 PM EST (#3139) #
Mike D, Ouch on Nigel Wilson. Maybe someone 'stuck a needle in him'... and he forgot to work out... 'until the meter read obese.' (:
Also, Pedro wants to know: "Who is Karim Garcia?"
_Tucker - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 04:32 PM EST (#3140) #
Augie Schmidt might be the most overhyped Blue Jays draft, drafted #1 out of U of New Orleans in 82 and was the College player of the yr that yr.
_Braby21 - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 05:01 PM EST (#3141) #
I think I'd pick Felix as the fastest Jay I've seen, and I'd give Moookie Wilson a close second.
_actionjackson - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 05:08 PM EST (#3142) #
Steve Goldman's Super Seven: Ryan Bradley, Drew Henson, Adrian Hernandez, Kevin Maas, Hensley (Bam-Bam) Meulens, Ruben Rivera, Brien Taylor. Maybe before Mr Goldman buries Rios in the Campusano section, he might want to consider that he still has something these 7 do not, a promising career. A disappointing first season, in terms of homeruns yes, but look at the speed, defense, rifle arm, doubles, and triples. I still feel 10-15 HR are possible this year and eventually 15,20 or 25 are not out of the question. Remembering that he is a centre fielder originally, I don't see how that can be considered an abysmal failure.
_Fozzy - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 05:11 PM EST (#3143) #
http://www.maruccibats.com/joe.html
Ladies and gentleman, Joe Lawrence in 2005. COMN.

An except from the site:

"He retired from baseball in 2003 after playing shortstop, third base, and second base.

Joe joined the LSU Football Team in 2004 but was sidelined by a non-contact injury, a tear of the anterior cruciate ligament in his left knee, in the spring game. He returned in August and became the oldest player on the current tem and perhaps the oldest player to ever put on a LSU uniform at 27."
_Fozzy - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 05:14 PM EST (#3144) #
I guess I should also mention, in case you don't want to read everything there, is that he and Kurt Ainstworth own part of the Marucci baseball bat company, who make bats for some pretty prominant MLB players. Interesting stuff.
_Ron - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 05:47 PM EST (#3145) #
Just imagine if Jamie Campbell was the play by play guy next season with Mike Toth as the color guy.

BTW I'm not a fan of Vin Scully. I know he's a living legend but I caught some Dodger games last season on the tube and I find him extremely boring.
_Ball Guy - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 05:57 PM EST (#3146) #
Yeah, Hogan would be pretty good at the play by play. He also used to do Jays' Talk from time to time. I think he could bring some authority to the position...or at least sound authoritative; he knows quite a bit about the game. I heard Mulliniks do colour commentary on a couple of radio broadcasts about 10 years ago and he was great. He provided super analysis and said what was on his mind. Anyone except Gary Matthews.
Most over rated would have to be Zosky....what a huge bust he turned out to be.
_actionjackson - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 06:03 PM EST (#3147) #
Mike Wilner and Darrin Fletcher for play-by-play and colour.
_JackFoley - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 06:18 PM EST (#3148) #
I like the idea of Jamie Campbell if only because he seems to truly enjoy baseball. I'll withhold my judgement on his play by play ability until I actually see it.

Can someone explain how "three years of Major League service" is defined in regard to arbitration? What classifies as a year of ML service?
_Jonny German - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 06:38 PM EST (#3149) #
A year of Major League service is 172 days.
_Lefty - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 07:11 PM EST (#3150) #
http://www.baseball-reference.com/w/willibe02.shtml
This NY Yankee centre fielder didn't show much pop his first years either.

I'm just not about to give up on Rio's as a dud prospect yet.
_Magpie - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 08:21 PM EST (#3151) #
[Collins] did sort of fall off a cliff, career-wise.

Sort of. What it was, he simply couldn't hit on grass. He was good on the turf in Cincinnati, so the Yankees threw some money at him (Steinbrenner had decided to build the Yankees around speed. It didn't work out.) Anyway, Collins stunk in New York, was traded to Toronto and had one mediocre year and one pretty good one. That got him sent to the grass in Oakland, where once again, he was not so good. And on to Detroit, and not so good.

He needed the turf to be an effective hitter.

I'm not a fan of Vin Scully.

I think he's the greatest ever, but he could be getting old, I suppose. He kind of spans the whole history of the Dodgers... trolley dodging and Superbas and all...
_forest fest - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 08:27 PM EST (#3152) #
This NY Yankee centre fielder didn't show much pop his first years either.

I'm just not about to give up on Rio's as a dud prospect yet.


Great point, Hopefully rios is a late blommer

although, the Yankees kept williams him in favor of trading him to the Expos for Larry Walker so...meh
_Keith Talent - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 08:39 PM EST (#3153) #
I remember Vince Scully from the 1980s and he was dynamite then, the best. He is getting kinda old and repetitive now. Broadcasters were huge for me getting warmed up to the game as a child, especially these ones:

Tony Kubek
Vin Scully
Dave Neihaus
...anyone from NBC's Game of the Week, even at a young age I could tell that NBC really took it up a notch.
one thing about Fergie Oliver, he did have that handle: "How 'bout those Blue Jays?" (and didn't he save that handle for when the Jays were hot, I remember liking that)--I enjoyed having him as the pre-game guy and the standee to nearly get hit by foul balls in the camera bay by the dugout, he did good work from field level. In the booth, a disaster.

Still, there were more of the boring type of baseball broadcasters:

Dave Van Horne
Ken Singleton
Harry Caray
Steve Stone (man, those WGN Cubs games just put me in a coma sometimes!)
_Keith Talent - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 08:50 PM EST (#3154) #
In case there was any doubt about where Clemens got his $22M arbitration figure from:

- he wears 22
- upcoming is season 22 in the bigs
- 22 cool ones, please
_Keith Talent - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 08:52 PM EST (#3155) #
Hey! How much you wanna bet that if Clemens got his $22M, and got his 22nd win in mid-September of his 22nd season, that he would immediately retire a-la Bernie Mac in Mr. 3000?
_Vernons Biggest - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 09:13 PM EST (#3156) #
http://toronto.bluejays.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/tor/news/tor_news.jsp?ymd=20050121&content_id=933270&vkey=news_tor&fext=.jsp
New article up at bluejays.com which sums up offseason moves in AL, and J.P.'s take on season ahead. COMN.
_Magpie - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 09:23 PM EST (#3157) #
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1972384
Texas has made a big pitch for Delgado (COMN) - money not mentioned.

All things being equal, I'm sure Delgado would rather stay in the AL, where the book he has kept so diligently these many years on opposing pitchers will still be helpful to him.

I'm sure he'd love to hit in Arlington.

I'm sure he'd much rather play 1B than DH (which is a big attraction of going to the Mets, I would think). Texas has a very good first baseman already. However:

Teixeira went to Hart's office unsolicited in October and said he was willing to change positions if there was the chance to get a player like Delgado.

Teixeira came up as a 3B, and has played LF and RF. I don't think too much of the Texas outfield as it stands right now...

I'm sure Delgado would like a chance to play some games in October, and of the four teams left in the running (Florida, Baltimore, Mets, Texas) I think Texas is the most likely to get into the post-season. They did win 89 games last year. Buck Showalter is just getting started, and I wouldn't argue with his record.
_coliver - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 09:29 PM EST (#3158) #
I always liked Fergie Olver--he wasn't perfect but he was good by the dugout. Plus, he was George Bell's favorite media guy by a wide margin (seriously).
_Ball Guy - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 09:36 PM EST (#3159) #
JP says the Jays will depend on pitching and D to win games. I'll give JP some credit for at least trying not to get stuck in his preferred type of baseball (big on offence). I like that at least he can recognize their weakness and try to play to their strength. That is more than can be said for a lot of GMs who only want to build a team one way over and over again in spite of poor results.
_Ball Guy - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 09:43 PM EST (#3160) #
Have to admit, Fergie and Don Chevrier were not my favourite baseball comentators. Fergie always seemed like he was in his Just Like Mom personae and Chevrier always sounded condescending. I loved Costas and Kubek on NBC's game of the week; they were hilarious and knew their ball. But Dan (Shulman) will always be the man.
_Chan Ho Park - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 10:47 PM EST (#3161) #
Guess who is winning 20 Games with a 5.5+ ERA next season.
_Fozzy - Friday, January 21 2005 @ 11:01 PM EST (#3162) #
To the last poster, using a fake alias is a big no-no here; from the legal/privacy link:

6. Impersonating any person or entity or misrepresenting your identity or affiliation with any person or entity, even in fun, is not appreciated. For various reasons, Batter’s Box strongly discourages the impersonation of real individuals. Instances of impersonation may be subject to a warning, a deletion or a ban, depending on the nature of the impersonation, the frequency of instances of impersonation, and the nature of the comments made under the impersonated name. All decisions regarding the appropriate response to impersonation are in the sole discretion of Batter’s Box and the members of the Roster.
_DaveInNYC - Saturday, January 22 2005 @ 01:43 AM EST (#3163) #
Guess who is winning 20 Games with a 5.5+ ERA next season.

LOL. Good stuff...

But, you sure you can stay healthy FINALLY Chan Ho?
Gitz - Saturday, January 22 2005 @ 02:16 AM EST (#3164) #
I'm not so sure that's not the real Chan Ho Park. I mean, what else can the guy be doing in the off-season? He's certainly not working on his pitching skills.
Friday QOTD: Hartung, Hurdle and ... ? | 160 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.