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B.J. Ryan, 5 years $47M. A.J. Burnett, 5 years, $55M. Lyle Overbay for Bush and Jackson and Gross. Troy Glaus for Hudson and Batista. How’s a longsuffering Blue Jay fan feel about all this?

This one feels culture shock.

I mean, when was the last time the Jays acquired an established player as good as Lyle Overbay? The answer is amusing: Mike Sirotka, January 14, 2001. If you disqualify that transaction given the circumstances (Boomer having demanded a trade), you go back to November 14, 1996 and Orlando Merced. (Yeah, I’m thinking it too: Orlando Freaking Merced was a good player? Yup, history claims he was. Until he got to Toronto). When was the last time the Jays signed a free agent as high profile as B.J. Ryan? Randy Myers, November 26, 1997.

So you’re telling me the last time the Jays really went out and traded for a player as good as Overbay was NINE years ago, and now they’ve gotten him AND an even better hitter via swap?! They haven’t signed a big shot free agent like B.J. Ryan for EIGHT years, and now they’ve inked him PLUS an even more highly prized hired gun for good measure?!

I’d learned to cope with being resolutely stuck in baseball middle class. It had become comfortable. I relished the little victories, cheering out loud in my car December 30, 2002 when I heard the Jays had signed a player I’d fervently hoped they would… Mr. Frank Catalanotto. I took great pleasure in deriding the every move of the Evil Empire, and in predicting their imminent downfall, year after year. I started paying rapt attention to the minor leagues, distracting myself from the hopelessness at the big league level with the untold promise of the kids on the farm. I amused myself building gigantic spreadsheets to keep track of every player in the Toronto organization, every transaction, every dollar committed. There’s no such concept as 3rd place in the spreadsheets.

Now you’re telling me my team has added more gross talent than any other club this offseason? That I can’t ink Doc in as the team’s All-Star representative in 2006 because there are other players with TORONTO on their shirt who are just as likely to be among the very best at their positions? I’ve got to go remove names of guys I’ve followed from the moment they were drafted from my spreadsheet? The unwashed masses surfing ESPN.com think the Jays have surpassed the mighty Red Sox? You’re killing me.

Sure this stuff is normal for some teams. Since the end of the 2003 season the Yankees have traded for Randy Johnson, Javier Vazquez, Kevin Brown, and Alex Rodriguez, and signed free agents Johnny Damon, Kyle Farnsworth, Carl Pavano, Jaret Wright, Gary Sheffield, and Tom Gordon to contracts totaling 173 million dollars. In the same time frame the Red Sox have dealt for and Josh Beckett, Mark Loretta, Curt Schilling, and signed free agents Edgar Renteria, Matt Clement, and Keith Foulke for a total of $89M. That’s all well and good for them. But I’m a Blue Jay fan! I’m a Canadian! My team doesn’t do things like this! My team is all about the gems to be found in the bargain bin! My team is timid and passive, my team politely waits for its turn to come, when the big boys are bored of winning!

Oh well. Just give me some time, I’ll adjust.

With thanks to Ducey for providing the inspiration for this piece.

Culture Shock | 151 comments | Create New Account
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VBF - Thursday, December 29 2005 @ 08:33 AM EST (#138085) #
I was talking to a former neighbour and die-hard Jays fan in Virginia and he said that the press the Jays are getting in the States is huge.

And in Toronto, above the Leafs coverage and Raptor loserness, baseball is what people are talking about. The same people that bitched about the strike, then bitched about Rogers ownership who haven't been to a game in the last 12 years have run out of excuses and are going to games.

Ticket sales are up 26% and at this pace they will draw 2.5 million fans a season, and 31,000 fans on average per game. I don't care about bandwagon jumpers--they're part of every team--but they're on board right now and we need them.

There's 4 stages of development to be a successful franchise:

-commitment by ownership and payroll CHECK!
-GM building a contending team with resources provided CHECK!
-Players doing their jobs and meeting expectations
-Fans showing up

The last one can sometimes come before the third, like in the case of the current spike in sales. However, to get crowds o 50,000 again, they're going to have to contend.

HoJu - Thursday, December 29 2005 @ 08:44 AM EST (#138086) #
I gotta say I haven't heard this much baseball talk in this city in quite some time. It's great to hear. Just thought I would add that I heard O-Dawg on the Fan 590 last night and he was classy as always. One of the first guys who called in after the interview suggested they send the tape to Terrell Owens and show him what it means to be a real pro.
Pistol - Thursday, December 29 2005 @ 08:48 AM EST (#138087) #
A large part of the 50,000 crowds was the novelty of SkyDome when it opened. It also helped that the Jays were really good then too.

einsof - Thursday, December 29 2005 @ 09:16 AM EST (#138088) #
I’d learned to cope with being resolutely stuck in baseball middle class. It had become comfortable.

I've heard & read very similar sentiments from a number of Jays fans -- People do get comfortable to all types of situations, even horrible or mediocre ones. Change is always scarey--fear of the unknown---new players, new names, new chemistry, new styles, new STATS, new expectations,-- where does it all lead to? Are we over estimating our team? OR, are we underestimating our team?
Before this new phase of Jays history we knew more or less what to expect from the Jays, like a longtime married wife who knows what to expect from her husband (whether he was abusive or Mr. Perfect)--now there's a new husband (team)--What can we expect from this new relationship? This all may sound over dramatic but for the longtime Jays fan IT IS traumatic (but its exciting as hell)!
The answer: At best, we'll just have to get used to living with a Winning team.. At worst, its still as exciting as anything this town has seen for along time..For now we can harbour the wildest of expectations & probabilities & dreams---The reality of it all will be revealed on the field in the season to come... Go Jays Go
Andrew K - Thursday, December 29 2005 @ 09:20 AM EST (#138090) #
I'll all a lot more frightening, that's for sure. There's honour in being a small budget team producing medium performance, and glory in being a winning team whatever the budget, but only shame in spending big money and then losing anyway. The fear of being the Mets runs deep.

3rd place isn't good enough, any more. Let's hope the clubhouse doesn't tighten up, with the increased expectation. I know I'll be a lot more tense when winning is not just a bonus but positively expected.

Still, I wouldn't swap it for how I felt this time last year.
VBF - Thursday, December 29 2005 @ 09:24 AM EST (#138091) #
A large part of the 50,000 crowds was the novelty of SkyDome when it opened.

Was it? In 1990, the first full year of the Dome they still got great crowds, but did average 3,000 empty seats a game. It's not alot, but it might suggest that there wasn't that many people going to the Dome because it was new and exciting, but because there was a decent team there, just not a World Series team.

In 1991 when the team finished the season in first and up seven games on Boston, is the year that the 3,000 empty seats that were averaged in 1990 (record 86-76 )were filled. Attendance was consistent with the team's play and as we saw, only increased in 1992 and 1993 when the Blue Jay won two World Series. By that time, the Dome was 4 years old--still relatively new--but those people were going to watch a winner.

From 1989 to 1993, the worst years of attendance at the Dome were atcually the first two.

I'm not denying that there weren't people there because of the 'fad' of the Dome. I'm saying that a) there weren't that many of them as you think, and b) just because the Dome wil be 17, doesn't mean we can't get crowds upwards of 50,000.

And to follow up on my original post, the Jays need everyone, bauxites alike to go to as many games as humanly possible. No more excuses! :P

Craig B - Thursday, December 29 2005 @ 09:28 AM EST (#138092) #
I don't care about bandwagon jumpers--they're part of every team--but they're on board right now and we need them.

A-men! If any of you reading are former fans who are coming back to the team, or someone who's former interest in baseballwas buried by ten years of third place (or worse), then welcome home. I am *overjoyed* to see you back.

Craig B - Thursday, December 29 2005 @ 09:30 AM EST (#138093) #
There's honour in being a small budget team producing medium performance, and glory in being a winning team whatever the budget, but only shame in spending big money and then losing anyway. The fear of being the Mets runs deep.

Hey, there's *never* any shame in being a fan.

Keith Talent - Thursday, December 29 2005 @ 09:33 AM EST (#138094) #
VBF, are you sure about your claim of 3K empty seats per game in the SkyDome in 1990?

Remember they didn't move into the SkyDome until June, and played a lot of home games at Exhibition Stadium that year. I recall the SkyDome being pretty much sold out every night back then.

VBF - Thursday, December 29 2005 @ 09:37 AM EST (#138095) #
I went by Baseball Almanac, here.

In 1989, the average crowd was about 41,000 but obviously because of the Exhibition Stadium games. In 1990, attendance was 47,996 and the capacity was approximately 51,000. That was a full year at the SkyDome.

VBF - Thursday, December 29 2005 @ 09:38 AM EST (#138096) #
And it was 1989 in which the team moved to SkyDome.
John Northey - Thursday, December 29 2005 @ 09:39 AM EST (#138097) #
As a long time fan of the team (since the early 80's - geez I'm old) I remember the days when the Jays were what they Yankees have been recently. The biggest spenders, expecting to win every year. When signing the best free agent was expected, not a surprise.

Now we are slowly returning to that. The Jays have a situation no other team in baseball has. The Jays have an exclusive market for television of 30 million people, to go along with a home base for attendance of around 4 million, plus Buffalo. The potential for revenue is amazing. The tv market is the same as all of California, which is split among 5 teams. Should the Jays get back to the 83-93 situation of perpetual contention and regular playoff appearances Rogers could be looking at paying a heck of a lot into the revenue sharing pool.

Remember, the Jays were small market due to a few things that are no longer true.

  • Canadian dollar dropping to 61 cents US
  • TV rights being based on a long term contract (now fully owned by the owners of the Jays so all tv revenue shifts are factored in immediately)
  • Declining attendance regardless of what was being done, largely due to break in faith caused by 1994
  • Splitting part of market with another team which is now in Washington (minor factor, but was there)
  • Ownership that did not know, or care about, baseball
  • Hot young kid in town taking away sports dollars in the Raptors
  • New stadium down the street taking away corporate dollars (now is just another stadium)
These things were killing the Jays in the late 90's and early 00's. Now they are gone. The Jays are again the hot young kids in town. The Rogers Centre is now the new stadium due to renovations that will draw a few in. Rogers owns the tv station, the radio station, and the cable system that shows the tv station - these create a strong incentive to keep the team in the headlines at all times as it ups ratings and revenue for these other branches of the Rogers system, ala how the Jays winning in the 80's helped Labatt sell more beer.

Nice to return to my teenage years, when the Jays could win at any time. Plus a good omen, I'm seeing lots of real blue jays outside my window as I type this.

Pistol - Thursday, December 29 2005 @ 10:06 AM EST (#138098) #
Looking at those attendance numbers I was surprised to see the Jays average over 39,000 in 1995 - the year after the strike.

The talk was always that the strike was a large factor in declining attendance, but it looks like that might be overstated. Attendance didn't really start declining until the 1996 season - a year after the team had a winning percentage under .400 (and I had forgotten that 1995 was shortened at the beginning due to the strike).
Arms Longfellow - Thursday, December 29 2005 @ 10:21 AM EST (#138099) #
The strike hit the Expos way harder than it hit the Blue Jays.
VBF - Thursday, December 29 2005 @ 10:37 AM EST (#138101) #
This is a bold statement, and while the strike hurt the physical team (leading to personnel changes, etc), it hardly rippled the fan base.

Let's be honest here. The Montreal Expos only had above league average attendance 6 times in 35 years and never averaged more than 23,000 a game after 1983. Even in the short 1994 season when they were on pace to be the best team ever, they only averaged 22,000. And after the horror was over, they still drew around 18,000 until 1998. Not only did Montrealers not show up when they were winning, but the expected decrease in attendance wasn't even that drastic.

My explanation is that there were few casual fans and the gross majority of people in attendance were die-hards before and after 1994.

The thing that really hit attendance hard was losing Pedro, Walker, and several other future superstars. That put attendance from the high teens to the low teens and then the thousands.

Pistol - Thursday, December 29 2005 @ 10:37 AM EST (#138102) #
I think that's overstated as well.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/WSN/attend.shtml

Take out 1994 when they were the best team and there's no significant impact on attendance until 1998.
Pistol - Thursday, December 29 2005 @ 10:38 AM EST (#138103) #
I'm referring to the Expos of course.
Rob - Thursday, December 29 2005 @ 10:54 AM EST (#138105) #
The Jays averaged 47665 at the Dome in 1989, which is about the same as they had in 1990 over a full season.
Original Ryan - Thursday, December 29 2005 @ 11:25 AM EST (#138107) #
Even in the short 1994 season when [the Expos] were on pace to be the best team ever, they only averaged 22,000.

To be fair, it took a while for Montrealers to notice their team in 1994, but they did start showing up toward the end of the season. Crowds above 30,000 were not uncommon. For their final series at home that year against St. Louis, the Expos averaged 34,374. For an earlier series against division rival Atlanta, they averaged 43,958.

Source: Retrosheet

Mick Doherty - Thursday, December 29 2005 @ 11:27 AM EST (#138108) #
Even in the short 1994 season when they were on pace to be the best team ever

They were "on pace" to win 105 games, so I hope you are meaning "the best Expos team ever" or something like that. Even the later 1998 Yankees, who won 114, weren't "the best team ever." If the '94 Expos had finished, say, 43-5 (to end up 117-45) AND ripped through the post-season undefeated, then you could make the "best ever" argument.

StephenT - Thursday, December 29 2005 @ 11:38 AM EST (#138110) #
Official SkyDome capacity was lower the first few years. The first game (June 5, 1989), a sellout, was just 48,378. By the end of the year, a sellout was around 49,600. The high in 1990 seems to be around 49,900. I don't think they cleared 50,000 until the 1991 opener (50,114). I'm not sure if they ever exceeded 51,000 except in playoff games (the last one, Game 6 of 1993, had 52,195).

Most of the non-sellouts in 1990-1993 were in April and early May. I suspect a lot of the difference between 1990 and 1991-3 (not that there was much difference) was in the early part of the year, a combination of the fans realizing that tickets had become harder to get and the Jays working harder at selling the earlier games.

e.g. see http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/VTOR01990.htm
Mylegacy - Thursday, December 29 2005 @ 11:53 AM EST (#138112) #
This is exciting isn't it! I love this thread!

I can confess to this AA meeting that I'm a bandwangoner. Only the wagon was the 1982-1983 wagon. I was an Expos fan and saw this real young, real talented team starting to put an exciting product together. I knew NOTHING about her minor leagues SO I started buying Baseball America (which I still do) and bought, read, and devoured every Bill James book thereafter. (I still have them all!)

I learned to LOVE the GAME more than I ever had, to LOVE the JAYS, and win, lose or draw since then, and forever more, I'm hooked.

They don't need to win for me. They don't need to contend for me. All they gotta do is show up in late February and start throwing the ball around.

Because I live in BC I only see them live in Seattle. BUT, this year, 17 years after she opened, I'll be going to 8 games in April at the Skydome... er Roger's Center. This year I lose my cherry!

We don't need to beat the Evil Empires, BUT I'm gonna love making them dread walking on our turf. Rogers may OWN the JAYS on paper, BUT they're MY team Teddy!!
Lefty - Thursday, December 29 2005 @ 12:34 PM EST (#138116) #
Personally I don't have a problem at all with the team being somewhat mercenary. By the time the Jays draft and develop the four or five more big leaguers necessary Roy Halladay and Vernon Wells etc would be long gone.

The only team I can think of in recent history that has been moderately succesful with the patient approach is Cleveland, but even they secured a large part of their young talent from trades and free agent aquistion.

If some fans are content to be a Royals like franchise with brains then thats cool. I think the BlueJay fan market voted with their collective feet on that one already. A contending team must use every resource under the rules. And these include trades, free agents and rule fivers. Theres no shame in that.
HollywoodHartman - Thursday, December 29 2005 @ 12:43 PM EST (#138118) #
OT: (Sorry)

I have a bad spyware problem, my homepage keeps switching and alot of popups come up. I have microsoft anti-spyware, ad-aware, and spybot but none seem to be working particularly well. Do you guys know any programs to help me with this?
Gerry - Thursday, December 29 2005 @ 12:49 PM EST (#138120) #
One other aspect to this culture shock is to start worrying if the 5 year contracts will be good or an albatross. The Jays now have three expensive long term contracts in Burnett, Ryan and Glaus. All of them are under 30 but its still a concern when you look at history.
HollywoodHartman - Thursday, December 29 2005 @ 12:56 PM EST (#138121) #
Everyone's worried about the 5 year contracts to young pitchers. Are they any more risky then a 3 year contract to a 38 year old player? I'd go with the former.
greenfrog - Thursday, December 29 2005 @ 12:57 PM EST (#138122) #
For web surfing, I really like Firefox. It eliminates a lot of popups and unwanted crap.
TA - Thursday, December 29 2005 @ 01:04 PM EST (#138124) #
HH, I had the same problem. I downloaded Firefox which helped some, but had to actually delete Explorer before all of the spyware went away.
Caveat: I'm no tech guy so I don't know what doing this would mean for the overall health of your computer, but this did work for me.
HollywoodHartman - Thursday, December 29 2005 @ 01:15 PM EST (#138126) #
Thanks guys!

I'm on Firefox now and so far so good! Do you know any programs to get rid of the spyware already installed though?
VBF - Thursday, December 29 2005 @ 01:22 PM EST (#138127) #
They were "on pace" to win 105 games, so I hope you are meaning "the best Expos team ever" or something like that. Even the later 1998 Yankees, who won 114, weren't "the best team ever." If the '94 Expos had finished, say, 43-5 (to end up 117-45) AND ripped through the post-season undefeated, then you could make the "best ever" argument.

For a season that was never completed, it's unfair to give them any label or projection. But as a homer more than anything, and a team that was close to the heart, I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt. Scientifically or not, whether it makes sense or doesn't I'm going to call them that anyway. Crucify me.

VBF - Thursday, December 29 2005 @ 01:25 PM EST (#138130) #
But getting back on topic...

That's an interesting note StephenT. I wonder why attendance was lower. May it had to do with finishing renovations of wheelchair seating or something. Still though, the Jays were able to sustain excellent attendance up to 7 years after the place was built. It can come back to that.

costanza - Thursday, December 29 2005 @ 01:45 PM EST (#138133) #
I've never really bought the idea that the new park was a "large part" of the attendance. If people were really interested in being in Skydome, the Argos would've gotten a big boost in attendance, and they never did. The attendance in the last few seasons at the Ex wasn't really much different from the first six years at Skydome, given the number of horrible seats at the Ex. (Six years is an awfully long time for people to be drawn to a stadium because of novelty).

The quality of the team (and the team, as a result, becoming trendy) was infinitely more important in the attendance, IMO
Matthew E - Thursday, December 29 2005 @ 02:18 PM EST (#138136) #
About the culture shock. I wrote an article about just this kind of thing here quite a while ago.
Geoff - Thursday, December 29 2005 @ 03:22 PM EST (#138140) #
For spyware removal, I use Spybot and Ad-aware.

And I'll take this opportunity to make a PSA for folks to reply to comments using the 'Reply to this comment' link. For example, VBF has some comments in this thread that directly refer to some other comment and I have no idea which one. Using the link — and setting your preferences to nested comments — makes this easier. Thank you and have an excellent 2006.

VBF - Thursday, December 29 2005 @ 03:31 PM EST (#138141) #
While I test Geoff's advice, I'm going to ask this question to older bauxites. In 1984 when people started to take notice to the Jays, what was the defining point when all of a sudden the entire city was on board?
Matthew E - Thursday, December 29 2005 @ 03:42 PM EST (#138142) #
I wasn't a fan at the time, but it seems to me that it was '83, not '84, and that many would point to NBC's 'Game of the Week' against Kansas City, in which Clancy beat the Royals 8-2 and Alfredo Griffin caught everything in sight, as a turning point.
Craig B - Thursday, December 29 2005 @ 03:54 PM EST (#138145) #
As far as VBF's question goes, the whole city seemed to climb on board in three stages (I didn't live in Toronto, but my aunt and uncle did and I followed through TV and all the Toronto papers). The '87 pennant race was what actually started to bring serious interest from ordinary Torontonians... in 1985 it was a novelty and still very much a select crowd, but by '87 it was getting seriously popular. The SkyDome opening in '89 was what really boosted the interest in terms of making the Jays a "hot ticket"... before that people were interested in the Jays, but it wasn't the cultural phenomenon that it became once SkyDome opened. That made the Jays very, very hot and popular... but JaysMania(TM) really only hit full force with the '92 ALCS win and the trip to the World Series. Up to that point, especially with being thrashed in '89 and then again in '91, there were lots of people who adopted a "wait and see" approach, essentially saying that they couldn't be bothered unless the Jays could prove they could "win the big one".

By the time the strike was settled, JaysMania was over; since the offseason of '95, when it was apparent that Interbrew weren't going to sell the Jays but didn't see them as central to their business either, people steadily drifted away from the team until the fan situation is similar now to what it was in '83 or so... other than baseball fans, the Blue Jays are a curiosity.

Someone who lived in the city on a day-to-day basis in those days may have a better prespective.
costanza - Thursday, December 29 2005 @ 04:16 PM EST (#138148) #
I'd agree that '83 was when the team took the "leap forward". For me, it was when the team hit the All-Star break in first place. IIRC, the Jays opened up the second-half with a series at the Ex against the (first place) Rangers, and for the first time, there was a real excitement about the team's chances of making the playoffs.

I believe this coincided (roughly) with Stieb (and Dawson) appearing on the cover of Sports Illustrated. There's nothing like American recognition to get Canadians (Torontonians, especially) to take note of something local...
Gerry - Thursday, December 29 2005 @ 04:19 PM EST (#138149) #
I moved to Toronto in March 1987. Not knowing many people I went to many games at exhibition stadium. The Ex was really a football stadium and had many seats that were not that good. Home plate was in one corner of the football field and visualize a curved outfield wall built at the other end of the field from about the 20 yard mark on the far side of the field to the end zone at the other end. The seats down the rightfield line looked towards the middle of the football field so you had to twist in your seat to see home plate. Meanwhile you could buy a centrefield seat that shaded to right and was way behind the wall. The Ex had pretty good crowds but weather was an issue so close to the lake and seating was poor in the cheap seats.

The move to the Dome increased attendance because of the novelty factor, because of the guaranteed weather and because the cheap seats were better. But the biggest factor was the demand that fed on itself. In those days you would get an order form in the mail around Christmas time and you had to order by February or you could be shut out. So people ordered ticket as a defensive mechanism to make sure they had some. Once the strike came and tickets could be had at any time then the reason to buy in advance had gone, other than getting a specific seat. Once people didn't HAVE to buy in advance they could elect not to buy if the team wasn't that good.
costanza - Thursday, December 29 2005 @ 04:31 PM EST (#138150) #
in 1985 it was a novelty and still very much a select crowd

I'd disagree with this. The Jays actually making the playoffs was *huge*. We "finally" got the chance to show off our city to the Americans, and went overboard about it.

They run old CityTV news broadcasts at 2AM on a Toronto cable channel... a couple months ago (on, roughly, the 20th anniversary) they played the show from the night of the first game of the series. Much of the program was devoted to the series, with emphasis on the fact that the city was going to get attention from a US audience in a way it had never had, to that point. (Included was an embarassing "humour" piece put together introducing the city to any American visitors who may have been watching the show)

There's no little question question that, at the time, the Blue Jays were the talk of the town... (I still have the Star sports pages from those playoffs... Allison Gordon's column "from the stands"... the BJ Birdy comic strip... such memories. :)

Craig B - Thursday, December 29 2005 @ 04:38 PM EST (#138151) #
Gotta disagree, costanza. The stadium wasn't even three-quarters full for those playoff games. If the Jays were big for a couple of days, it was largely a passing fancy.
Joseph Krengel - Thursday, December 29 2005 @ 04:49 PM EST (#138152) #
Just for reference, Ad-Aware should be used in conjunction with CrapCleaner, although the latter is not for casual computer users. An understanding of caches and registries is recommended. As far as *this* discussion is concerned... I find this all very exciting. Childish or not, I've been scouring U.S. media outlets and reading Blue Jays coverage, and enjoying whatever I find. Did anyone check out the bit from Steve Phillips about the BJ moves in the latest ESPN Radio podcast?
costanza - Thursday, December 29 2005 @ 05:00 PM EST (#138153) #
It was a lot more than 75% full, but the fact that the team averaged fewer than 40,000 fans likely that had a lot to do with the way tickets were distributed, assumptions that tickets weren't available, and (significantly) the fact that many of the best bleacher seats were removed for the temporary press box that was set up in the left field stands.

If you want to talk attendance, though, the '85 Jays averaged 30,500 fans in a ballpark with 10,000 good seats, which was pretty much unbearable, weather-wise, for much of the season. They ranked 2nd in the league in attendance, playing in what was easily the league's worst ballpark.

I think it's your distance from the city (or your preference for the Expos at the time) that is giving you a wrong impression of how the team was received. (The idea that the team suddenly became more popular in '87... I can't fathom where that would've come from)

The Jays weren't, in 1985, the phenomenon they became in the '90s, but I think the idea that they suddenly became big with the "ordinary Torontonian" in '87 is way off-base.
Craig B - Thursday, December 29 2005 @ 05:26 PM EST (#138156) #
Yes, you're right, I shouldn't have implied it was "sudden" (didn't think I did). Things seemed to grow steadily between '83 and '87.
John Northey - Thursday, December 29 2005 @ 05:36 PM EST (#138158) #
Craig, in 1985 the playoffs had poor/mediocre attendance due to a few factors. The cost of tickets was a big one for me (I was 16 at the time), another one was that only bleacher seats were available to the general public and that was a good way to miss most of the game and freeze your butt off. Heck, any seat at that park was a good way to freeze your butt off. The non-bleacher seats were metal, while the bleachers were covered and nicely set up for strong wind.

I loved the old stadium, but it is more my favorite memories than anything. I was there for the last game (thank you George Bell for that home run) and it took years before I started to think 'gee, it would be fun to see a game there again'. Trust me and anyone else who was a Jay fan then, it was dang cold and way too expensive to go to those playoff games no matter how much we wanted to go. Also, the Jays were the talk of the town as much then as in the early 90's as the Leafs sucked horribly (will they be last or second last this year...wait and see!) while the Raptors didn't exist and the CFL was starting its quick decline from popular to fringe.
Willy - Thursday, December 29 2005 @ 05:38 PM EST (#138159) #
I guess you had to be here; but for me 1983 was the year things really started–-the Jays first-ever winning season. We finished out of the cellar for the first time, for Pete's sake-–only three games out of second! Almost six weeks in 1st place (the chant “we’re No 1" began); a double-header sweep of the Yankees in August drew 45,000+ to the Ex; Bobby Cox was at the helm; Willie Upshaw was the first Jay to bat in 100 runs and Lloyd Moseby the first to score 100. Doyle Alexander arrived-–winning his last 7 decisions. (Tony Fernandez finally arrived in September.) Sure, it all came apart at the end of August in Baltimore(bleeping Tippy Martinez), but we’d never had such fun. The city was alive with Jays talk in those days. The crowds of believers just got bigger and bigger from then on. Great times. When the Jays clinched their first division title two season later in 1985 at the Ex, against the Yankees, a huge crowd sat in absolutely foul weather and cheered their heads off. Those aluminum seats were killers in the cold--but we hardly noticed. Hardly.
jvictor - Thursday, December 29 2005 @ 05:52 PM EST (#138161) #
For me it was 83 and the "82 Baseball Abstract", my first baseball book. Of course it was so much more than that: a revelation; being let in on a secret that few knew about, or would take the time to understrand. Hook line and sinker.

I am concerned about some becoming neveau riche parvenues (sic). I am a Jay fan first, and baseball fan second. I hate the idea of silly young girls now "loving" the Jays. I don't want to sit beside people in the stands who are only there to see and be seen. Yes I'm talking to you corporate seats. Glad you got your seats but don't tell me to be quiet. Look I'm a little conflicted right now. Do I need to see a Baseball therapist? Is there such a thing? Can youse guys help?

Glevin - Thursday, December 29 2005 @ 06:03 PM EST (#138162) #
"The only team I can think of in recent history that has been moderately succesful with the patient approach is Cleveland, but even they secured a large part of their young talent from trades and free agent aquistion."

What does a patient team mean? A team that doesn't make trades, doesn't sign free agents? No team, sits back and does nothing. I've seen this way too often on way too many boards. I saw it on the Tigers' board when guys were trying to justify signing Juan Gonzalez for 7 years and 120 million. I saw it when the O's were signing Joe Carter, Doug Drabek, and all and going for it. The upshot of this theory is, you can't win without spending money. This is true. But unless you are the Yankees, you have to spend money where it is best served. The Indians are hardly the only successfull model of a team that rebuilds successfully through youth. The Twins are doing it now. The A's are doing it. These teams have good, young cores who they try to supplement with the right players (Loaiza, Castillo, White). the Jays had a mediocre core of players (Halladay who is a stud, Wells who is good, and a bunch of fairly average players) and added at enormous expense with huge long-term risk a bunch of pretty good to good players. People have a revisionist view of the Yankees dynasties. They were not built through money, but rather through astrong system, good trades, and a few good free agent signings. It is almost impssible to win at all without a strong farm system either to replace veterans or to trade for top players.
Magpie - Thursday, December 29 2005 @ 06:43 PM EST (#138165) #
Matthew, I think you're remembering ABC's Game of the Week - they might have even called it "Monday Night Baseball" - because we were all so excited about Howard Cosell taking notice of us. And all I remember about the game is the crew raving about Alfredo...

I think there was an SI cover story as well around the time of the 1983 ASB - Jays and Expos were both in first place and Dave Stieb was getting the start in the game.

Dave Till - Thursday, December 29 2005 @ 07:28 PM EST (#138166) #
The Jays started drawing attention in Toronto in 1983 when they leapt into contention in the AL East (they were in first place at the All-Star break, and stayed in the race until the Great Bullpen Meltdown). The Game of the Week broadcast, in which Alfredo made four great plays, two in each direction, brought them some American attention, but they had Toronto's attention before that.

I was living in Waterloo in the 1980's, so I can't speak first-hand about Torontonians' attitude towards the Jays, but I seem to recall that all of Southern Ontario was absolutely nuts about the team in 1985 (except for the bits near Windsor that were populated by Tiger fans).

As for the 1985 ALCS and attendance: only north grandstand seats were available, and seating was general admission. If you wanted to score a seat from which you could actually see the game, you had to line up for hours. (I had a ticket for Game 1, so I took the afternoon off work and drove to Toronto and lined up with my friends. It was a fun way to spend the afternoon and early evening.) Given that it was cold, the game was far away, and prices were raised for the event, staying home was an intelligent option for many people.

Me, I'm extremely happy that the Jays are making a serious run at contending. If you miss the budget-conscious days, you can console yourself by remembering that the Jays still have a smaller payroll than the Sox, and are spending less than half as much as the Yanks. (And the Orioles would be spending more than the Jays, if they could get anyone to play there. Whoa. Low blow.)

And I agree that the Toronto baseball market represents a tremendous investment opportunity. In 1992 and 1993, the Jays could have probably drawn 100,000 a game, if they'd had room: if you wanted a seat for a prime date or against a good team, you had to fill out your advance ticket order as soon as it arrived in mid-winter. (I believe that they voluntarily capped their season-ticket list to ensure that casual fans would have a chance to see the team.) A good team could win over the entire *country*.

I'm really looking forward to this season: Bring. It. On.

And I'm part of the increase in ticket sales: I just bought a Season's Pass yesterday.
Matthew E - Thursday, December 29 2005 @ 07:36 PM EST (#138167) #
Matthew, I think you're remembering ABC's Game of the Week - they might have even called it "Monday Night Baseball" - because we were all so excited about Howard Cosell taking notice of us. And all I remember about the game is the crew raving about Alfredo...

Whatever it was. One of those anonymous American networks.

Lefty - Thursday, December 29 2005 @ 07:38 PM EST (#138168) #
Umm, whatever?
StephenT - Thursday, December 29 2005 @ 09:34 PM EST (#138170) #
I believe May of '83 was when the Jays became a "big deal". The Jays were 18-9 that month.

The Jays were just 8-10 in April of '83, but a 13-6 spurt to begin May had the Jays just one game out of 1st place going into a Victoria Day home game against the Tigers, which drew 35,011, and with a win the Jays moved into 1st. The next weekend, they drew two more crowds over 30,000 against Boston.

30,000+ in 1983 was a big deal. In 1982, the only home games over 30,000 were the home opener (30,216) and 2 weekend Yankees games in August (peaking at 35,065).

By mid-June of '83, the Jays drew 40,150 for a Saturday vs. the Angels. The '83 Jays ended up having 5 games drawing 40,000+, and another 20 with 30,000+.

The ABC Monday Night Baseball game wasn't until July 18, 1983. (Ref: http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/B07180TOR1983.htm .) The ABC game drew 26,178, but attendance spiked to 36,459 the next night (I'm not sure if there was a promotion, or if it was just the publicity from the night before).

After the ABC game, the Jays were 52-35, .598, 1st place, 2 games ahead of the 2nd-place Orioles. (Ref: http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/07181983.htm .) Unfortunately, the +17 games above .500 turned out to be the high point (though the major meltdown wasn't until late August).

When the team started to win, the fans certainly came out.
John Northey - Thursday, December 29 2005 @ 10:37 PM EST (#138172) #
Of note for those who don't remember 1985 too well, a few stats on attendance (thanks to the Sporting News Baseball Guide).
ALCS - Toronto attendance=39155, 34029, 37557, 32084
       KC attendance=40224,41112,40046 (capacity was about 40k)

NLCS - all games over 50k
Hmm. Thought the playoffs had lower attendance for the NLCS. Guess not.

League attendance though was much lower than is expected today. There were 3 teams with under 1 million (SF, Cleveland, Pittsburgh), just one over 3 million (LA Dodgers). The Jays, at 2.47 million were #5 (31k per game).

In 2005 every team cracked 1 million. 1 team was over 4 million (NYY), another 5 were over 3 million. The Jays 1985 attendance would've ranked just 17th in 2005. Standards have climbed drastically for attendance since the 80's. Only one non-Montreal team has been below 1 million in the 2000's (Florida in 2002 with just 1k more over the season in attendance than the Expos who were below 1 million in every season from 1998 on except for 2003).

Of note: 20 years earlier (1965) 9 of 20 teams were below 1 million, the highest was the Dodgers at 2.55 and just Houston cracked 2 million as well (new park, the Astrodome).

Standards for attendance are constantly changing. The Jays now, to be where they were 20 years ago in attendance relative to the league need to get over 3 million, or around 37k per game which they only cracked 8 times last year. If they make the playoffs this year, or come darn close (in serious contention until the last few days) I could see 3 million in 2007. Then Rogers starts making real good money, or we see a $100 million payroll (taking it as a given the tv ratings go through the roof along with the attendance).

Ah, this is so fun to dream about instead of hoping scrap heap guys work out.

brent - Thursday, December 29 2005 @ 10:46 PM EST (#138174) #
Question- can anyone again rank hitting and pitching versus the rest of the AL teams using park adjusted numbers please?
How many runs do the Jays need to score this year?
How many runs can they afford to give up?
gv27 - Thursday, December 29 2005 @ 10:51 PM EST (#138175) #
One of the pleasures of the early Exhibition years was examining the pocket schedule during the game, and heading for the "Advance Ticket Window" around the sixth inning. For some of us, cash came from a paper route or odd jobs, so going home with a envelope of tickets for upcoming games was a big deal.



Craig B - Thursday, December 29 2005 @ 11:01 PM EST (#138176) #
Craig, in 1985 the playoffs had poor/mediocre attendance due to a few factors. The cost of tickets was a big one for me (I was 16 at the time), another one was that only bleacher seats were available to the general public and that was a good way to miss most of the game and freeze your butt off. Heck, any seat at that park was a good way to freeze your butt off. The non-bleacher seats were metal, while the bleachers were covered and nicely set up for strong wind.

Ugh, I know. The first time I ever went to a game there, my dad and I had to leave early... couldn't last nine innings.

Geoff - Thursday, December 29 2005 @ 11:04 PM EST (#138178) #
Ah, this is so fun to dream about instead of hoping scrap heap guys work out.
To be fair, I'm still hoping Hinske, Rios and Lilly work out this year. If there not scrapheap guys now, they could be if any have another bad year.

OK, Hinkse is definitely a scrapheap guy. And Downs. But so was Candy Maldonado. And Tony Castillo. Every team hopes scrap heap guys work out. It's just that if you're a contender, you have less than a handful. If you're not a contender, maybe your entire pitching staff is made up almost entirely of scrap heap guys or kids, such as the Rays, or the 2003 Jays.

DepecheJay - Thursday, December 29 2005 @ 11:16 PM EST (#138181) #
Ahhh... Jeff Tam

I still remember when he wrote himself into the "World's Book of Biggest Assclowns" by eating his jersey as if it were Filet Mignon.

I miss those days...
VBF - Thursday, December 29 2005 @ 11:23 PM EST (#138182) #
But so was Candy Maldonado. And Tony Castillo.

Ahh, yes. The trenches.

actionjackson - Thursday, December 29 2005 @ 11:57 PM EST (#138184) #
Speaking of the good old days and linking (hopefully) to these days that could be very good, I was in a 'Value Village' tonight. I was looking for a winter coat to replace a $32 special that's lasted 11 years.

I didn't find one, but I did walk out with two framed, signed Jays posters from yesteryear for $3.99 plus tax each. They were done by Sports Illustrated in the mid to late '80's. Who were they you ask? Tony Fernandez and Fred McGriff, who begat Roberto Alomar and Joe Carter, who led the Jays (Alomar HR in '92 ALCS + Carter 'touch 'em all' HR to end '93 WS) to back to back World Series in '92 and '93. It could have been any other Blue Jays that have donned the uniform, but it happened to be those two. Is fortune smiling on us? I think so.

Bonus story: the girl at the cash register noticed the posters and flashed back to her high school days when OK Blue Jays was played to begin the day, instead of Oh Canada, obviously during the pennant drives and playoffs of '91-'93. People are talking! "If you build it (JP, Paul, Ted), people will come, people will most definitely come."

I'll be picking up opening day tickets tomorrow, and pledge to go to as many games as possible, but even though I can save money with it, I want no part of that stinking pass. I had it for '03 and '04, but was sick of being herded like cattle, towards the home plate area. I prefer being down the base lines in the 500 level, and I think I'll have more of a say as to where I want to sit without the pass.

Opening day is Mrs. Action's birthday, and even after mourning the loss of the O-Dog for four days (and however many stages of grief), she has come to terms with it and is very excited about '06. We will of course be picking up MLB Extra Innings to keep track of all the ex-Jays and other goings on, and of course to be soothed by 'Uncle' Vin Scully (what a bedtime story). For once though, hopefully it won't be the backup plan in case things get ugly. There weren't many of those games last year. 2004, hoh boy!
VBF - Friday, December 30 2005 @ 12:31 AM EST (#138185) #
But action, you can sit on the baselines. Even on games with the smallest crowds, 518 and its archrival 532 (spit!*) are both open. The only thing is that you usually can't go super super high because it's hard to control the pot smokers and illegal drinkers up there and ushers prefer you stay lower. Looking back on last season, Maureen actually used us, The Blue Jays Cheer Club as the marker as to how high people can go. Maureen's the usher who works the outer sections and she's super. It's the old grey haired security guru's you have to look out for!

*I actually prefer 532, but I dare not say it here!

dude3731 - Friday, December 30 2005 @ 01:17 AM EST (#138189) #

The Jays have an exclusive market for television of 30 million people

This certainly would be nice except for the fact that most people out in Vancouver are watching Seattle, people up north (Yukon, NWT, Nunavut) probably aren't watching at all, there probably isn't a huge market out in the middle of the praries, and the maritimes are so far removed from everything except Jr. leagues that I would be surprised to consider anyone there a fan. You are also assuming that every single person in every region of the country is a fan, also very unlikely. This is before you realize that the Jays aren't on TV every game outside of Sportsnet Ontario. I'm all for the Jays and I hope that we avg. 30k this season in the dome, but to say that we have tha tmany fans across the country just isn't true.

Grimlock - Friday, December 30 2005 @ 01:18 AM EST (#138190) #
But so was Candy Maldonado. And Tony Castillo. Ahh, yes. The trenches.

Those guys weren't trenches. The 1992 World Series video CLEARLY establishes that Derek Bell and Ed Sprague were the official trenches!

actionjackson - Friday, December 30 2005 @ 01:20 AM EST (#138191) #
Hey, don't spit on me, I'm a 3rd base line devotee ;). I know you guys love the 1st base line, but some of us have got to hang out over there for balance sake. As for Maureen, well I think Bruce Cockburn said it best: "If I had a rocket launcher... I would not hesitate." I know she shows a lot of spirit and spunk and gets a lot of people into the game, but when I'm there, I'm there for the game, not for people screaming in my ear: "When I say Vernon, you say hit, Vernon...etc etc" Yes, I'm introverted and I just want to watch the game and cheer when I feel like cheering. Yes, even Dave Winfield couldn't change that about me. Does that mean my heart doesn't bleed Blue Jay blue? Absolutely not.

There's something indelible about a team arriving in town when you're 7, and up until then, all you've known is HOCKEY and then BOOM! you're hooked. I was 13 when they started to mature, and 22 when they peaked and 24 when they hit the slippery slope (ahh! that's a bit early). I sense a revitalization here at 36. I can't imagine life without the Jays. The point is I defend my right to "worship" in my own way, and that doesn't include having some leather lunged usherette tell me how to. I can see how this might be appealing to others though, so rather than use my "rocket launcher" I ignore her.

This year, when I feel like going to a game, I'll head to the local Rogers store to avoid the crowds and pick up tickets that way. I strangely also feel relaxed without the pass. With it, I'll feel like I haven't gone to enough games. Without it, I'll just relax and pick and choose. I know that doesn't make logical sense as it only takes 8 games to use it for the year, but I much preferred not having it last year. Sometimes the spring comes and I forget how lousy I can feel in the summer (I take meds that make the heat unbearable). Before long, it becomes a desperate chase to get the thing used up. I console myself with the fact that even though I may not get to 'enough' games this year, the Rogers MLB Extra Innings, as well as cable and internet will be a constant source of revenue to this team, and as long as we all do the best we can do, this team will be back in the top third in payroll eventually, until the CAN $ sags again (gasp). Peace, my 1st base line friends.
Ron - Friday, December 30 2005 @ 01:52 AM EST (#138193) #
"This is before you realize that the Jays aren't on TV every game outside of Sportsnet Ontario."

I live on the West Coast (have all 4 SN channels) and almost every Jays game was shown on SN Pacific and TSN here last season.
Jabes - Friday, December 30 2005 @ 04:38 AM EST (#138198) #
Is anybody else pleased that the Jays off-season moves have had the added effect of making Miguel Tejada upset at the O's?

Nothing against the fans or the city, but there is something inherintly unlikeable about the O's. I think its probably just the management and ownership.

Despite their off-season moves, the O's payroll still exceeds the Jays right?
Dave501 - Friday, December 30 2005 @ 06:54 AM EST (#138199) #
Dude3731, whether all 30 million people are fans is irrelavant, they still have a TV market of 30 million people. that's not to say all 30 million watch. i'd say about 90% or more of jays games are shown coast to coast (not including webcast).
and there are lots of fans in the east as well. Admittedly, i'm one of the few diehards here that i know, but there are lots of casual fans who watch 20-40 games per year on TV.
3RunHomer - Friday, December 30 2005 @ 07:34 AM EST (#138200) #
Is anybody else pleased that the Jays off-season moves have had the added effect of making Miguel Tejada upset at the O's? Nothing against the fans or the city, but there is something inherintly unlikeable about the O's. I think its probably just the management and ownership.

There was nothing inherently unlikeable about the real Os. They were the gold-standard for how to run a team, but that was 30 years ago. The current crappy-Os are a joke. Yankee and Red Sox fans outnumber Os fans at Camden Yards.

I grew up an Os fan but the current management has done me in. Burnitz is the straw that broke my back! I've flirted with becoming a Jays fan for the last couple years ... but it hasn't taken. I'm not ready to get onboard with another team spending big bucks, so I'm going the other way.

Go Rays! Gomes, Kazmir, Young, Upton, Crawford, Bankston, Cantu, Orvella! Devil Rays in 2007! Or maybe 2008! Woohoo!

John Northey - Friday, December 30 2005 @ 07:51 AM EST (#138201) #
Of note on that 30 million viewers bit... in California there are 25-30 million people and not all of them are baseball fans either, but they are potential fans. Much like Dave501 said, the Jays have a potential of 30 million fans. There are pockets that have other teams to choose from (Vancouver with Seattle, Winnipeg/Northwest Ontario with Minnesota, Windsor with Detroit, the east coast with Boston) but the Jays are the only ones who can always be seen from coast to coast. Plus, two of the three that have strong pockets of fans suck right now (with any luck we'll have all 3 sucking next year).

The buzz has started, lets hope the Jays keep it going past April (would it be a pain or what if they get off to a slow start then lose the momentum as the Leafs do an improbable run at the cup, thus sucking away tons of interest).
jmoney - Friday, December 30 2005 @ 09:15 AM EST (#138203) #
I just figured I'd add that I live in Saskatchewan and got virtually every game on Sportsnet West and TSN.

Baseball fans of the prairies are generally older folk, but just about everybody was watching the Jays in the early 90's and just about everybody can tell you where they were watching the games in 92 and 93.
Kingsley Zissou - Friday, December 30 2005 @ 09:35 AM EST (#138205) #
Funniest 'Orioles Payroll' tidbit I was able to discover:

They're paying LaTroy Hawkins $5,350,000 this season!!!

That's obscene!!!!!
MaggieinNB - Friday, December 30 2005 @ 09:56 AM EST (#138207) #
"the maritimes are so far removed from everything except Jr. leagues that I would be surprised to consider anyone there a fan."

I have to chime in for those of us on the east coast that VERY much consider ourselves true blue fans.

I have been a daily reader for a long time but it took someone questioning my fandom that prompted my first post. Thanks for all the info that has helped me to understand the ins and outs of the game I have loved since the mid-eighties.

Try following the Jays from Germany in the late eighties (before internet) when the only games on TV were the CBC broadcasts that were shown 3-4 days later, and the only newspaper coverage was in the American Military "Stars and Stripes". We were posted back to Canada (Ontario )in Aug of 92. Just in time for this fan.
Matthew E - Friday, December 30 2005 @ 11:08 AM EST (#138212) #
The Red Sox also have a following in the Maritimes.
Leigh - Friday, December 30 2005 @ 01:52 PM EST (#138224) #
the maritimes are so far removed from everything except Jr. leagues that I would be surprised to consider anyone there a fan.

You are a right big condescending arse.

Smaj - Friday, December 30 2005 @ 02:18 PM EST (#138226) #
Dude 3731 - easily one of the most ignorant posts I have read on this site. Where where you educated? Given your post I assume you are not. There are so many errors & false assumptions that I am stunned you are able to type.
My hope is that you were stirring the pot for reaction from across Canada, otherwise you should feel ashamed of such an absurd editorial. Perhaps you should actually visit the various regions of our great Nation & then determine if their are serious Blue Jay fans from coast to coast.
Lefty - Friday, December 30 2005 @ 02:27 PM EST (#138228) #
Yup, Dude don't get it.

Out here on the westcoast the Mariners do have a following of baseball fans, not so much Mariner fans.
HoJu - Friday, December 30 2005 @ 02:41 PM EST (#138229) #
Is anybody else pleased that the Jays off-season moves have had the added effect of making Miguel Tejada upset at the O's?

Yeah, I gotta admit a smile crossed my face when I read this: "I don't want to say anything bad that can hurt my teammates, but look at Toronto, they have strengthened themselves and we haven't done anything," said Tejada, who hit .305 last season with 26 homers and 98 RBIs.

Mylegacy - Friday, December 30 2005 @ 02:58 PM EST (#138233) #
My 2 cents on Dude3731's comments.

First, I live on Vancouver Island in BC, can't get further from TO than this. While we do watch some Mariners games we GET EVERY BLUE JAYS game broadcast by Roger (3 channels + HD) and TSN (+HD) etc. + we get all sorts of games from the west coast that you guys would have to stay up till 3 in the morning to watch.

The west is FULL of Jays fans.

Since I was born in Halifax I also know the east is full of Jays fans. The Jays are a Canadian team, no question. Now that they're moving forward I expect them to become Canada's TEAM!

Now, one last point. Dude3731 is NEW to Da Box this was one of his first posts. I think he was trying to be more glib than offensive. Personally, I'm gving him the benefit of the doubt. All is forgiven.
MondesiRules - Friday, December 30 2005 @ 03:48 PM EST (#138235) #
Typical ignoramous Ontario attitude drivel once again... I happen to be a hardcore Jays fan living in Regina. For the lack of monies spent on tickets, there is more than enough being spent on merchandise. I also happen to watch 95% of the games on Sportsnet (yes, we do get Sportsnet out of the Toronto area chap). As well, I have a good 10 friends in Quebec who have retired the Expos jerseys in their case to follow the Jays. Enough of the eccentric Ontario attitude!
miVulgar - Friday, December 30 2005 @ 04:28 PM EST (#138239) #
"Typical ignoramous Ontario attitude drivel once again... "


Typical anti-Ontario generalization once again...

Also, how can he be both "typical" and "eccentric"?

Pointless attacks aside, I don't think it's unreasonable that somebody question the "reach" of the Jays beyond the province.

Of course, there are fans. It's not surprising that many of them find their way onto this site. However, like others, I've traveled across Canada a bit. I've met as many Jays' fans as I have baseball fans who could care less about what happens in Toronto; I've even met baseball fans who cheer *against* Toronto.

You probably won't find many of them visiting Da Box.
Dave Till - Friday, December 30 2005 @ 04:49 PM EST (#138242) #
From what I've read and heard, there are lots of Blue Jays fans all across the country - and, indeed, all over the world. This is only natural, of course - who would want to root for another, and hence lesser, team? :-)

As for Miguel Tejada and the Orioles: heh heh heh heh heh.
timpinder - Friday, December 30 2005 @ 04:51 PM EST (#138243) #
As long as those baseball fans are cheering for Canada at the WBC, let them cheer for whoever they want during the season.

I actually met a Jays fan in Detroit when I was shopping with my wife. Even American's don't always cheer for their home team.

Finally, I'm a huge Jays fan, but I'm a *baseball* fan too. I admit that I'll sometimes change the channel when the Jays are playing the Royals and I'll watch the Redsox vs. Yankees on Fox. (Don't shoot me)
Cristian - Friday, December 30 2005 @ 05:51 PM EST (#138247) #
It would be interesting to set up a Google Maps feature that shows where Bauxites reside. As well, the renewed fan interest is attracting new posters here. I sure hope that none of them are driven off by existing bauxites acting as grammar nazis. The best way to educate people on how this pena functions is to allow them to stick around long enough to become part of this zombie like cult.
Warse - Friday, December 30 2005 @ 05:53 PM EST (#138248) #
As a Calgarian I can tell you that there is a small but hardcore base of fans here. I would think that with a winning product, that base would grow considerably (especially since with basic cable you can get at least 140 games/year).

And miVulgar, while there is a certain "ABT" (anyone but Toronto) attitude among some Canadians, my sense is that it is limited to hockey and politics.
HoJu - Friday, December 30 2005 @ 06:01 PM EST (#138249) #
It would be interesting to set up a Google Maps feature that shows where Bauxites reside.

There's a site called frappr where you can do exactly that. Not sure if anyone has setup a group for users of this site but that would be interesting.

Ryan B. - Friday, December 30 2005 @ 06:13 PM EST (#138250) #
I was born in Nova Scotia and lived there for the first 12 years of my life. It was there that my deep love for the Jays was born. It was 1995 that I started watching the Jays games like a junkie who needs another fix. In 1997 I moved to Ottawa where I now live. After living here for eight years I feel comfortable saying I found more Jays fans in Nova Scotia then here in Ottawa. Part of it is that the Lynx were the Expos minor league team and Ottawa was, in the '80's, Expos country. Now everyone seems to be indifferent. The Lynx draw about 1,500 a game, which is terrible, and the solid baseball fans I know seem to have moved away from the game now that Les Expos are gone. I see a Jays hat or Jersey here and there but the majority of this city just doesn't care.


VBF - Friday, December 30 2005 @ 07:07 PM EST (#138252) #
Out of curiosity, I created a user group. Since 'battersbox' was already taken (go figure) you can put yourself on the map at http://www.frappr.com/dabox
Cristian - Friday, December 30 2005 @ 07:33 PM EST (#138254) #
I've added myself. Thanks for setting this up VBF. It should be interesting.
CeeBee - Friday, December 30 2005 @ 08:13 PM EST (#138255) #
Thanks VBF. :) Will be interesting to see where everybody is located.
Willy - Friday, December 30 2005 @ 08:28 PM EST (#138257) #
<i>I sure hope that none of them are driven off by existing bauxites acting as grammar nazis. The best way to educate people on how this pena functions is to allow them to stick around long enough to become part of this zombie like cult.</i><br><br>

Not sure how to reply to this, Cristian; but since I'm the one who usually nags people about their language, I suppose I'm the "grammar nazi". (What an ugly term, by the way: you either don't know much about nazis or are too ignorant to care about how you use language.) I'll simply observe that anyone coming to this site who's scared off by a reminder to spell correctly, or to otherwise try to get the words right, probably wouldn't be a great addition to the site anyway. Cheers to you, too.
Cristian - Friday, December 30 2005 @ 08:59 PM EST (#138259) #
I use the term 'grammar nazi' because it's the term I've seen used to describe similar behaviour on other forums. It's not the most accurate term but you knew exactly what behaviour I was referring to when I used it. Hence, it's an effective term. You suggest that I don't know much about nazis. True enough. I'll leave you as the expert there.

Not sure how to reply to this, Cristian; but since I'm the one who usually nags people about their language, I suppose I'm the "grammar nazi". (What an ugly term, by the way: you either don't know much about nazis or are too ignorant to care about how you use language.)

That's some sloppy use of brackets there Willy.

I cringe when I see bad grammar as well. I don't waste my time reading posts containing basic grammatical errors but I try not to chide the poster either. Most of the time I'll ignore these posts and I notice many others do the same. The poster gets the subtle message without being pilloried. The subtle method works. I've been a fan of this site for over 3 years and I've seen it work.

melondough - Friday, December 30 2005 @ 09:02 PM EST (#138260) #
MEMORIES....I wanted to put this one on the "we will remember Hudson" thread but there is none. If one is started I think this would be a great one to start it off with.

I thought just for fun I would re-live some of the great plays made by Hudson in 2005. I enjoyed it so much that I thought that some of you may want to check it out to get similar off season relief (although some of the plays may make you cry, so if you are real sensitive do not watch). I hope you enjoy watching the following replays as much as some of us enjoyed watching them in person.

First you will need to open the link below (the one's that I put an exclamation mark after I thought were his best but they are all worth watching). If you want a quick reminder of what his range is like, check out the Aug 17th clip.

http://www.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/multimedia/tp_archive.jsp?c_id=tor&ym=200505

Next look up the following games for the highlight reel plays:

April 18th:"Hudson turns quick DP"!
May 17th:"Hudson spins and throws"
May 4th:"Hudson with the range"
June 22nd:"Hudson defense"
June 8th:"Hudson turns two"
July 30th:"Hudson slick DP"!
July 20th:"Hudson's great defense"
July 20th:"Hudson gets the out"!
July 1st:"Hudson robs Nixon"!
Aug 17th:"Bluejay's great defense"!!! DO YOU REMEMBER THIS GREAT GAME AGAINST ANAHEIM?
Hudson is the third play of the segment. Actually, you can see why some of the contributors to this site are excited about A.Hill in the infield with the range he shows in the second catch of this three part segment series. WARNING: Hudson's play here may make you cry!
Aug 7th:"Hudson shows his range"!
***Sept 7th:"Hudson injuries his ankle". Unfortunately his season ended after this play. Apparently his ankle has almost healed.

With all of Hudson's amazing plays, the play of the year had to be this one from Koskie on July 27th "Koskie's amazing catch". Of course we will probably see little of him at 3rd base now (yet I still like the trade).

One last notable highlight for those who care was on Aug 26th "Fan doesn't want the ball". Not a Hudson play but very funny none the less. I missed of missed this game.

I posted this for your entertainment – enjoy.
Willy - Friday, December 30 2005 @ 10:13 PM EST (#138261) #
<i>I cringe when I see bad grammar as well. I don't waste my time reading posts containing basic grammatical errors but I try not to chide the poster either. Most of the time I'll ignore these posts [which ones?] and I notice many others do the same. The poster gets the subtle message without being pilloried. The subtle method works. </i><br><br>

You must cringe a lot then. If I understand you (it's not easy), you prefer the "subtle message" of ignoring posts that bother you. And that, somehow, teaches the poster something? Sure is "subtle". Many of the people on this list who mangle the language don't seem to know that they're doing so; so isn't it doing them a favour to let them know they've made a slip? Why do you see that as "chiding"? Do you never make slips? Do you just want to continue doing so? Fine, go ahead.
Fawaz - Friday, December 30 2005 @ 10:49 PM EST (#138262) #
There's a difference between politely letting someone know they've made a mistake without making them feel illiterate and saying “[f]or crap's sake, boys. Try a bit harder.” An individual with your mastery of the English language should appreciate the difference.

I think the roster members do a good job of maintaining the standards of this site. Perhaps you could focus your energies on making us feel like boors for our misuse of OPS+ instead.

Please do correct my posts, though. I appreciate any help I can get. :)
Willy - Friday, December 30 2005 @ 11:05 PM EST (#138263) #
<i>There's a difference between politely letting someone know they've made a mistake without making them feel illiterate and saying “[f]or crap's sake, boys. Try a bit harder.” An individual with your mastery of the English language should appreciate the difference.</i><br><br>

O.K., Fawaz, point taken. (In my defence, I'll say that I'm not making certain posters 'feel' illiterate: they *are* illiterate, in the sense that they do not know their own language (presuming that's English). But you're right about the tone of some of my more exasperated postings. I'll try to do better.
VBF - Saturday, December 31 2005 @ 12:02 AM EST (#138266) #
“[f]or crap's sake, boys. Try a bit harder.”

Since I've just been indirectly called illiterate, since the quote in question was originally directed at me, I ask that in the future, you please email and notify me that I am illiterate. It is much more becoming than pronouncing it on a popular website.

You may also want to think about utilizing the HTML format. It makes it a lot easier for illiterates like me to make out what you're saying.

JayWay - Saturday, December 31 2005 @ 12:07 AM EST (#138267) #
Yeah.

Stuff like that belonds in the in-box. Not the [i]Batters[/i] Box.














Put it on the board.
JayWay - Saturday, December 31 2005 @ 12:09 AM EST (#138268) #
Aw crap.
Dr. Phil - Saturday, December 31 2005 @ 12:16 AM EST (#138269) #
I also am offended by the comments regarding Eastern Canadians. I know that this has been beaten to death already, but coming originally from P.E.I. and now living in Moncton, I have followed the jays since I was 6 or so. Does everyone outside of the maritimes think that we still live in igloos or something. That was easily one of the most ignorant comments I've read on this site, and I've been here for several years after I followed the jays on ESPN and was referred here by a post. Since then I've religously read this every single day that is possible. I'm sorry for ranting, but I feel that when my "fandom" is being questioned by someone just based on where I live, that is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. You should seriously think about what you say sometimes before you post it. I'm all for forgiving and forgetting, but I think that you owe an apology to about 3 million Canadians, or roughly 10% of the Canadian population. But then again, who am I but and ignorant pre-historic idiot just because I choose to live somewhere.
melondough - Saturday, December 31 2005 @ 12:19 AM EST (#138270) #
This is becoming very dull and boring reading. Maybe you can give one another your personal e-mails to sort this out.

For anyone looking for postings baseball related, look no further than my last post. I believe that it is the last one that bears any relation to what I assume this site was created for - baseball (specifically the Blue Jays).

Now, for those of you that want to re-live some of Hudson's incredible plays, just scroll back a bit past the jib jab (oh oh spelling?) and you will find my last posting with what I think is a great link.
JayWay - Saturday, December 31 2005 @ 12:25 AM EST (#138271) #
It was dumb, but it was also just a small sample of the type of BS that's spoken about Torontonians and Ontarioans on a daily basis in this country. We can even look to this thread for a charming example of that.
mathesond - Saturday, December 31 2005 @ 12:38 AM EST (#138272) #
Funny how a thread devoted to the culture shock Jays fan may be feeling devolved into a test of fanhood, netiquette, and literacy. Only on the 'Net!
Greg - Saturday, December 31 2005 @ 02:14 AM EST (#138275) #
I think it's funny (and entirely fitting for Canada) that a thread on baseball has turned into heated attacks along regional lines.

I live in Regina as well and know many die hard Jays fans, although I have to admit I grew up in Toronto and obviously they form a higher proportion of the population there.

I'll never quite understand Torontonians condescening attitude towards the rest of Canada, and on the other hand I am constantly baffled by Westerner's sensitivity to it. I guess it's just all the charm of being Canadian
Phil - Saturday, December 31 2005 @ 05:49 AM EST (#138280) #
Thanks for setting up the map thing, it's interesting. Managed to be the first to sign in from Japan, though probably not the last.

One advantage of living across the Pacific, incidentally, is that it does tend to put intra-Canadian regional rivalries into perspective, FWIW...
90ft_turnleft - Saturday, December 31 2005 @ 06:55 AM EST (#138281) #
First I would like to commend this site for enlightening fans like myself who sometimes get less saturated in the minutiae of baseball numbers than those who passionately seem drawn to it's calling.
I applaud you all.
I needed to say this qualifying statement in hopes that my following words will not offend any here.
Baseball fandom,Jays fandom in part seems based on numbers,stats,averages et al.................the proverbial who did what to whom kinda "thang".
In stating this obvious quality about quantity can some of those who frequent this site lose the rather large sized wooden rectal probe that they carry.(2x4 up the arse as it were).
Yes,I have read arguments and statements about this board trying to achieve a higher ground with regards to proper spelling and grammar but I don't think that condescending and patronizing others is the best remedy.
If some of us haven't enlisted our spell check software it surely doesn't mean we aren't as fervent about either baseball or more specifically Blue Jay baseball.
Please,let's refocus on what is most important.The Blue Jays kicking some major ass this coming year.
Peace out my fellow baseball-o-holics.
P.S Your baseball acumen is very much appreciated,one and all.
melondough - Saturday, December 31 2005 @ 09:46 AM EST (#138282) #
KOSKIE GOING TO TWINS?

Pro Sports Daily have added an article by the Minneapolis Star Tribune that suggests that JP has been talking to GM Terry Ryan about a possible deal that involves Koskie going to the Twins with the Jays picking up a :good part" of his salary.
http://www.prosportsdaily.com/mlb/blue-jays/rumors.html

No mention of who we may get back. Any ideas?
Here is the Twins depth chart link:
http://cbs.sportsline.com/mlb/teams/depth-chart/MIN

I would take Kubel($300K salary) in a heartbeat, but don't know what else we would need to trade. I would certainly to Ford-Griffen and Koskie (+ some of his contract) for Kubel and a 2nd tier minor leaguer.

How about Ford ($350K salary)? He has a decent OBP but has no power (hit 15 Hr's two years ago but never hit more than that in the minors).

How about S.Stewart. He has a $6 million salary. Maybe the Twins are ready to go with R.White, T.Hunter, and Kubel in the OF.

How about Lohse ($2.4 million salary)? Maybe we can turn it into a three way deal with a team looking for a SP or just keep him as a long man in the event Lilly stinks up the joint (though I think Downs could do the job).

How about J.Crain ($300K salary). Any chance of stealing him? The problem here is we already have a deep bullpen. Maybe a 3 way here.

How about Matt Lecroy? Actually isn't he a Free agent?

Thoughts?
Jonny German - Saturday, December 31 2005 @ 10:27 AM EST (#138283) #
If some of us haven't enlisted our spell check software it surely doesn't mean we aren't as fervent about either baseball or more specifically Blue Jay baseball.

See, here's the thing: Nobody on the Roster is questioning any poster's passion for baseball. The point is that we're not interested in being 'just' a site for fervent baseball fans or fervent Jays fans. We're interested in being a site for intelligent discussion of baseball. This is another statement subject to misinterpretation: When we bring up the subject of writing well, we're not insinuating that those who don't write well are unintelligent, but rather that they are not making the effort to write well. I know several people personally who fit this to a T - intelligent people who rarely choose to put the effort in to writing well.

Summing up: When we ask you to elevate the quality of your posts at Batter's Box, it's simply that, there are no hidden motives or veiled insults. You may be the most intelligent and most passionate Blue Jay fan here, but we're not interested in hearing your voice if you can't be bothered to take the time to use proper grammar and spelling.

Notice that throughout this I've referred to what "we" want. I constantly get the impression that many posters think that Batter's Box is some sort of public service that magically fell from the sky. It's not. Nor is it a for-profit feature like what you'll find on MLB.com or ESPN.com, where quantity is all that the hosts care about. The Box is a site created and maintained by the Roster. It's our house, and we pretty much open the door to everybody who wants to come visit us. If you came to my house here in Kitchener, I'd ask you to take off your shoes at the door. When you come to our house here on the web, we ask you maintain a much higher level of literacy than is found in the forums of those for-profit sites. I really can't see what's unreasonable about that.

Thank you kindly.

Note that although the above started out as a a response to 90ft_turnleft's comment, it's by no means directed at him/her in particular.

Pistol - Saturday, December 31 2005 @ 10:34 AM EST (#138284) #
Who the Jays would get back in a potential Koskie trade depends on how much of the contract they pick up.

Regardless, I wouldn't anticpate the Jays receiving any player that would be on the Twins 25 man roster this year. It'd just be a matter of the quality of the prospect they receive (which I wouldn't expect too much out of).
Tom Servo - Saturday, December 31 2005 @ 10:36 AM EST (#138285) #
Something I found interesting on ProSportsDaily was a link to the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette that says the Reds are interested in moving Adam Dunn, leaving their outfield at Pena/Griffey/Kearns.

This guy is another 40HR threat, so why hasn't anyone picked him up yet? More importantly, what would Toronto have to give up to get him? Perhaps Lilly with one of the extra third basemen? I dunno; you guys are better at trade speculation than I am.
Chuck - Saturday, December 31 2005 @ 10:55 AM EST (#138287) #
I thought Dunn was slated for 1B duty, what with Casey finally having been jettisoned.
daryn - Saturday, December 31 2005 @ 10:59 AM EST (#138288) #
Looks like J.T. Snow will sign with Boston... that removes one qualified candidate from our potential all important, "6th Cornerman" opportunity.

ok, just joking, I like what JP has done, but 10Million in two pinch hitters is a problem, gotta deal at least one, probably two of them, Koskie and Hinske maybe?

Can we assume/hope there are more deals coming?

What if we sent them both to someone, that needed bats, we will say, "here, take Koskie, and all you have to do for us is take Hinske too!" ??

What about Koskie, Hinske, and Rios, for a Kevin Mench type OF...??? of course, WHO IS a Mench type OF... Mench himself, Trot Nixon? Tori Hunter? I don't know... but I DO know that 10 Million on the bench is a waste of money, our payroll might as well be 70 not 80

still, I'm encouraged by the action.
Chuck - Saturday, December 31 2005 @ 11:29 AM EST (#138291) #
I don't think it's possible that either Koskie or Hinske will fetch anyone of worth in a trade, unless it's someone else's equally burdensome contracts. And I can't imagine that would be Ricciardi's first choice at this point.

Would anyone sign them as FA's for the amount left on their contracts (roughly 2 years, $11M each)? That's what the Jays are effectively hoping for, that someone will unburden them of the balance of those contracts and then give whatever the minimum is you're allowed to give to legally call it a trade (an assortment of bobbleheads?)

Should the Jays be so brazen as to expect anything shiny and prospect-like back, I have to believe they'd be expected to subsidize a good portion of the remaining contracts.

Unlike Batista and Hudson, Koskie and Hinske -- while of potential utility to a handful of teams -- are not valuable trading chits because of the money owed them. They represent contracts that Ricciardi would love to magically see go away.

melondough - Saturday, December 31 2005 @ 11:30 AM EST (#138292) #
Pistol, I highly doubt the Jays give up Koskie for a bag of balls, let alone pay some of his contract too.

At a minimum I would think that they would want a top 10 prospect if they are going to pick up say half his salary.
Pistol - Saturday, December 31 2005 @ 11:59 AM EST (#138293) #
I don't anticipate the Jays eating half of Koskie's contract. But if they did, yes, they would get a top 10 prospect (which is still just a B/B- prospect).
Jonny German - Saturday, December 31 2005 @ 12:06 PM EST (#138294) #
Melon, I think you're focused entirely on Koskie's upside. His career line is .277 / .369 / .455, and if he can give you 500 AB with that line while playing his usual good D at 3rd he's absolutely worth the $13M he's owed over the next 2 years. But the fact is he hasn't managed 500 AB in any of the last 3 years, hit only .249 / .337 / .398 last season (354 AB) and probably won't be playing third base if he's in Toronto. He's a big risk at $13M at this point, which is why the Jays would not be able to get much for him in trade.
Wildrose - Saturday, December 31 2005 @ 12:30 PM EST (#138299) #
Koskie in fact has 3 years remaining on his contract. He has a vesting option of $6.5 million in 2008 that kicks in at 1200 PA from 2005-2007. Even in an injury riddled year like 2005 he still managed 404 PA'S so the vesting option seems achievable, unless you benched him.

To trade him, you'd probably have to pay half his salary through 2008, and if your going to lay out nearly $9 million for him to just go away, you'd need something substantive in return.

timpinder - Saturday, December 31 2005 @ 01:03 PM EST (#138305) #
Why is everyone so down on Koskie? Yes he had a bad year in 2005 and he was injured, but his career numbers are around .280 Avg., and .360 OBP, with moderate power.

I think it's reasonable to expect that he will bounce back somewhat in 2006, especially with some protection in the lineup. I wouldn't be surprised if he hit .270 with a .350 OBP and hit 20 HR's. He's also solid defensively.

Hinske for a bag of balls? Sure. But I'd expect to get something for Koskie, especially if the Jays were picking up some of his contract.
Ryan B. - Saturday, December 31 2005 @ 01:04 PM EST (#138306) #
Does anyone know what's going on with rotoworld.com? It's been down for the past few days now and I'm not sure why. Hoping someone has some insight on the situation.
Chuck - Saturday, December 31 2005 @ 01:16 PM EST (#138308) #
The "down on Koskie" position, at least from my perspective, is due to the following:
* he has nowhere to play in 2006 (Glaus will be the 3B and Hillenbrand, if Gibbons gets his way, figures to be the DH)
* he has a long history of injuries
* he'll turn 33 next season

Yes, he could put up an .825 OPS with good defense in 450 AB, and were the Jays not already in possession of a starting 3B, they would be looking at Koskie to give them just that.

But he's redundant on the Jays, meaning that he has to be moved. And he represents a high risk to teams needing a 3B, because of his age, injury history and price tag.

So I, personally, am not down on Koskie per se. I'm down on the Koskie contract given the aforementioned confluence of factors that conspire to make the contract a burdensome one.
HollywoodHartman - Saturday, December 31 2005 @ 01:32 PM EST (#138310) #
Ryan,

You need to go to www.rotoworld.com, I don't know why but you do.
Willy - Saturday, December 31 2005 @ 02:51 PM EST (#138318) #
One final observation, following Jonny's remarks above. I can’t help but be puzzled, and amused, by the apparent sensitivity to criticism of one’s spelling or use of language from people who themselves feel no hesitation whatever about trashing J.P. or Gibbons or Rogers or whoever–even though they have virtually no understanding of all the circumstances involved in any decision those people might have to make. You offer opinions with an air of certitude that’s breathtaking--as if you actually *know* that you’re right. Wow.

If Gibbons chewed out Russ Adams, say, on the field, for some screw-up he had committed, does Adams get all bent out of shape and think he’s being ‘condescended to’ or ‘pilloried’ or ‘chided’ or 'patronized'? I don’t think so. He tries not to make the mistake next time, and gets on with it.

Respect is something that you *earn*: if you repeatedly misuse your own language you’re not going to earn much respect. If you can’t bother about how you say something, it’s almost certainly not something worth paying attention to.
Cristian - Saturday, December 31 2005 @ 03:26 PM EST (#138325) #
If Gibbons chewed out Russ Adams, say, on the field, for some screw-up he had committed, does Adams get all bent out of shape and think he’s being ‘condescended to’ or ‘pilloried’ or ‘chided’ or 'patronized'? I don’t think so. He tries not to make the mistake next time, and gets on with it.

Two points. First, it is Gibbons' job to teach Adams. The moment I hire you to be my grammar coach, please point out all my grammatical errors. Second, would Gibbons chew Adams out on the field or would he wait and do it in private?

If you can’t bother about how you say something, it’s almost certainly not something worth paying attention to.

You offer opinions with an air of certitude that’s breathtaking--as if you actually *know* that you’re right. Wow.

Parker - Saturday, December 31 2005 @ 03:32 PM EST (#138326) #
If the Jays have to ship Koskie away for next to nothing, I look at it this way: he was signed as a free agent. We didn't give up anything (other than his salary) to acquire his services, so other than the whole sentimental thing (he's a good ol' Manitoba boy) I can live with his departure. I think I'd rather see Hillenbrand at DH, even if he walks less than he gets hit by pitches and doesn't hit 30/100 like he predicted.
VBF - Saturday, December 31 2005 @ 04:13 PM EST (#138328) #
Some things to note:

-Post ASB Shea: .278/.314/.447/.761
-Post ASB Hinske: .294/.351/.483/.834
-Shea would have a .326 OBP if he had no HBPs.
-Hinske is likely to make less money than Shea Hillenbrand.
-Hinske is younger.
-2005 Shea: .291/.343/.449/.792
-2005 Hinske: .262/.333/.430/.763

Actually, if Glaus would kindly shift over to DH, Koskie would take his shiny glove to third, and we'd choose between Shea and Hinske. But since there's been some 'promise' we now have three rather boring DHs to choose from and an arguably inferior defensive third baseman.



TA - Saturday, December 31 2005 @ 05:01 PM EST (#138334) #
Looks like Ligtenberg got an invite from the Marlins:

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/sfl-marlins31dec31,0,6509958.story?coll=sfla-sports-headlines

It would be nice to see him make a recovery.
melondough - Saturday, December 31 2005 @ 05:09 PM EST (#138337) #
Tom Servo - Saturday, December 31 2005 @ 10:36 AM EST (#138285)
"Something I found interesting on ProSportsDaily was a link to the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette that says the Reds are interested in moving Adam Dunn, leaving their outfield at Pena/Griffey/Kearns."
Here's the link:
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05362/628783.stm

Tom, the article said that the Reds are interested in moving Adam Dunn to 1B not to another team which is how I read your posting. And yes, I would also love Adam Dunn but now with Casey traded it ain't gonna happen.
Willy - Saturday, December 31 2005 @ 05:34 PM EST (#138338) #
Cristian, it's not me you're arguing with: it's the dictionary, and hundreds of years of usage. So it's not me who's right, but the dictionary. It is in fact, sometimes, possible to be certain about spelling,etc.; but is it possible to be similarly certain about second-guessing people's decisions? As for hiring me as a 'grammar coach', that would be great; but there's no need. I offer my services for free--a great bargain. Happy New Year to you and to all other fans of baseball and the language and this fine site.
melondough - Saturday, December 31 2005 @ 05:57 PM EST (#138339) #
HERE IS THE PERFECT 3-WAY DEAL!!!

Looking over all the teams in the major leagues I really only see Koskie making an upgrade in either Minnesota (where they have Batista) or Washington (where they have Zimmerman). If Tampa Bay trades Huff as they are expected to do, then they could really do with an improvement over T.Lee at 1B.

We have discussed Minnesota at length but not Washington.
I have written before that reserve left handed hitting OF Ryan Church would look good in T.O. The problem is that Washington seems to be looking for starting pitching and with Soriano unwilling to move to the OF are not in a good position to trade any of their outfielders.

However how about Mench in Texas. They always seem to be looking for SP (currently going after journeyman lefty Brian Anderson). The only way I see around this is a three way deal with Minnesota and Texas as follows:

To Minnesota: 3B-Koskie (& Blue Jay commitment to pick up $2.5 million of the $6 million owed each of the next 2 yrs)
To Texas: SP-Lohse
To Toronto: OF-Mench

Lohse has a salary of $2.4 million but is eligible for salary arbitration this winter so it will go higher.

From Pro Sports Daily - December 23
Minneapolis Star Tribune (scroll down) (registration required): "While there was a lot of talking of trading Twins pitcher Kyle Lohse right after the season, Ryan said he sees a good future for the righthander and the plan is to keep him. But Lohse is eligible for arbitration and could wind up with a salary the Twins can't afford."

Mench has a salary of $345K so with the Blue Jays covering $2.5 million of Koskie's salary it effectively costs them approx. $3 million each of the next two years for a great hitting OF (not sure when he woudl be eligible for arbitration though).

Minnesota pays $3.5 millon for Koskie each of the next 2 yrs. This effectively puts each team's financial commitments within about $500K of each other for each of the next two years (assuming Lohse gets about $3.5 million in arbitration). Who would you rather have Koskie at $6 million or Mench at $3 millon (which includes paying some of Koskie's contract)?

Am I dreaming?
Nolan - Saturday, December 31 2005 @ 11:05 PM EST (#138349) #
In regards to grammar and spelling, I enjoy being able to visit a site that offers intelligent conversation without the usual sloppiness of message boards.

Further, I find it refreshing that these standards are made known to posters in a forthright manner that, as far I can tell, is devoid of arrogance. The posters getting upset at being reminded of these standards seem to be getting upset needlessly; defensiveness is never becoming.
HippyGilmore - Sunday, January 01 2006 @ 02:49 AM EST (#138357) #
I don't know, maybe I'm reading Willy's posts wrong, but with his complete dismissal of the people who he's correcting, I see nothing but condescension in his posts.
Jacko - Sunday, January 01 2006 @ 04:44 AM EST (#138358) #
I don't know, maybe I'm reading Willy's posts wrong, but with his complete dismissal of the people who he's correcting, I see nothing but condescension in his posts.

It's not condescension, it's honesty.

I'm the same way. The second I encounter bad grammar and spelling, I can't help but make the assumption that the writer is someone who is not worth paying attention to.

And I hold myself to the same standards. When I do post something that is unreadable or riddled with spelling errors, I don't expect many (any?) people to take me seriously.

sduguid - Sunday, January 01 2006 @ 06:24 AM EST (#138359) #
It may be honesty but it is also arrogance. I have been reading here for a couple of years and have seen several posters who often have had good things to say driven away by just this sort of attitude. The board may belong to the roster but it certainly wouldn't be worth visiting without the wide range of commentary that is provided by many people with different points of view.
It's New Years and I've had quite a few drinks - I hope I haven't spelled anything incorrectly or structured any sentences improperly.
einsof - Sunday, January 01 2006 @ 12:51 PM EST (#138363) #
I've been reading this site for a very long time though I've only begun posting as of a month ago..I've always enjoyed the intelligent opinions & facts that I've picked up here. This site has a maturity & friendliness that is quite rare in these types of interactive sports e-zines..I come here for the Blue Jays comradery & intelligent discussion & baseball insight in general..I've never been concerned about my grammar or spelling or anyone else's..(maybe I'm supposed to be concerned but I never felt it to be an issue or a priority.)I hope we're not becoming some elitist group whose membership requires the passing of a spelling & grammar test otherwise we're not allowed to post. ( I exaggerate here for effect purposes)--
I have never felt that I've been treated with condescension nor have I been aware of it happening to others with any regularity...I hope this site continues to be the pleasant & informative place it has been for me..
And really, is spelling & grammar that essential for our purposes? (I just started a sentence with "and"--that's a no-no!)-lol...Just as I listen to people's opinions even if they can't express them with the most proper of vocabulary & grammar, by the same token I read and respectively consider ALL posts regardless of their quality of punctuation, spelling or grammar...
SCHughes - Sunday, January 01 2006 @ 12:57 PM EST (#138364) #
I wonder if anyone has considered that some bluejay fans may not be English. My wife is French and sometimes reads these posts over my shoulder. Although her spoken english is perfect, her spelling and grammar are not. Would her comments be welcome here? We were curious
Mylegacy - Sunday, January 01 2006 @ 01:23 PM EST (#138365) #
SCHughes, GUARANTEED your wife, and you, are MOST WELCOME HERE!!!

I'm a fairly long time poster, of only marginal merit I might add.

Very occasionally, IM(H)O some on the board get a tiny bit too "correct."

HOWEVER, I believe there are several reasons for this:

1) Everyone here LOVES this game and this site. I couldn't live without it! (I exaggerate a bit)
2) Because of 1) above and the fact that so many sports forums descend into foul mouthed, totally illiterate monstrosities, the powers that be here are very sensitive to the ideal of keeping "us" on the straight and narrow.
3) As you follow this wonderful forum over the years I think you'll come to see that this is a small price to pay for the privilege of belonging to this "brotherhood" and or "sisterhood" as the case may be.

Happy New Year to you all. We are ALL one family. Let's respect each other and the forum.
CeeBee - Sunday, January 01 2006 @ 02:36 PM EST (#138366) #
I've tried to refrain from commenting because of the "he who has no sin, let him throw the first stone" concept, but since this subject seems to be forefront and of utmost importance I will state, for what it's worth(not much, I'm afraid) that if given a choice I would prefer this site to err on the side of correctness rather than degenerate into what I've seen on many other forums, bbs's, blogs, message boards or chat rooms.
I know my spelling, typing, proofreading, grammar and choice of words isn't perfect but I do try to uphold the standards of this site to the best of my ability.
Now that I've said my piece I'm really hoping a big fat juicy trade rumour surfaces soon so we can get back to doing what we do best..... Talking baseball!!!!! :)
VBF - Sunday, January 01 2006 @ 02:43 PM EST (#138367) #
Twins have no interest in Koskie

And, our old friend Josh Phelps will be signing a minor league contract with the Tigers.

Willy - Sunday, January 01 2006 @ 03:51 PM EST (#138368) #
O.K., I seem to have provoked more response than I had expected. It all started because someone referred indirectly to me as a "grammar nazi". Firstly I'm sorry that my comments strike some of you as "condescending" or "arrogant" (Hippy G. is still mad at me for criticisng Jerry, I see). I do see that my tone is not exactly ingratiating: it isn't meant to be. I really don't *like* sloppy language and sloppy thought (they go together). I make no apologies for that. If that's arrogant, so be it. Call me arrogant. I'm not saying I'm any better than anyone. I'm just asking those of you who think your careless use of language should go unchallenged to think twice about that. It's just possible you might be mistaken. (Yes, of course, I might be, too. But you guys are the ones getting all twisted up about this.) I like this site; I respect its roster [I'm not one of that group]; and I don't visit other baseball sites whose standards are, apparently, much less civilized. (BTW, of course, the French language lady should feel free to particpate. Jabonoso, whose native language isn't English, often posts and sometimes makes small idiomatic slips. I certainly would do so, too, if attempting to post in Spanish or French. No big deal.) But there's also a kind of smart-ass, I'll-say-what-I-like however-I-like attitude that a few bring here that shouldn't simply be acquiesced to.

Happy New Year to all.
Lefty - Sunday, January 01 2006 @ 04:25 PM EST (#138370) #
Willy, you should think about structuring your thoughts into paragraphs.

Its really hard to read one big block of spewing text.

Since you are sitting atop your high horse, I made an effort to read through a bunch of your posts. Though I am far from an english major; my friend, you are not beyond criticism. In fact I think I might ask my girlfriend - who is a writing coach and copy editor for a Vancouver daily - to see if you could use some tips. Of course in the spirit of assistance, not criticism.

In the meantime, why don't you put your whistle back in your pocket and leave the policing to the Roster.
timpinder - Sunday, January 01 2006 @ 04:35 PM EST (#138371) #
I've been biting my tongue, but I have to comment.

I very much enjoy this site where, for the most part, people write using proper grammar and spelling and articulate themselves well.

However, it's arrogant and condescending to say that someone who doesn't use proper grammar or who doesn't have an advanced vocabulary, "is not worth paying attention to".

To say that "sloppy language and sloppy thought (they go together)", is incredibly naive.

My brother will have his PHD in Molecular Biology from U of T by the end of the year. Although he has an advanced vocabulary, he couldn't write properly if his life depended on it. My father has an MBA and is the same way. My mother's a Professor and is very accomplished in her use of the English language, yet she couldn't mathematically calculate herself out of a wet paper box.

Some of the most brilliant people I know, with THE MOST INTERESTING THINGS TO SAY, have trouble with spelling and grammar.

A person's ability to write properly is not a measure of their intelligence.
HollywoodHartman - Sunday, January 01 2006 @ 04:53 PM EST (#138372) #
Can't we all just get along?...

Pretty please?
HippyGilmore - Sunday, January 01 2006 @ 05:16 PM EST (#138377) #
Some of the most brilliant people I know, with THE MOST INTERESTING THINGS TO SAY, have trouble with spelling and grammar.

A person's ability to write properly is not a measure of their intelligence.

And that's the best thing I've seen written on the topic in this entire thread. I wholeheartedly agree: It should always be about what you say, never how you say it.

Pistol - Sunday, January 01 2006 @ 05:33 PM EST (#138379) #
We expect everyone's best effort to make quality posts in the Box - in both content and grammar. Obviously no one is perfect but laziness in posts is what can be irritating (including, but not limited to, spelling, grammar, capitalization, excessive copying and lack of sources & links in posts). It's why we force you to use the 'preview' button. The better that everyone does this the better the quality of the site as a whole will be.

Also, someone mentioned whether posters who don't speak English, or at least as English as their first languauge, are welcome here and they certainly are. I believe English is not Jabonoso's first language and he's certainly a valuable poster.

Now let's please make this the last post on this topic and return to discussing baseball. If anyone has any further issues on the topic (or others) keep it offline and contact a roster member.

Thanks.
CeeBee - Sunday, January 01 2006 @ 07:30 PM EST (#138380) #
Hey, anybody have any good BASEBALL rumours? :)
mathesond - Sunday, January 01 2006 @ 08:08 PM EST (#138382) #
Hey, anybody have any good BASEBALL rumours?

Chico Escuela is looking to hook up with a team, but his command of English has some franchises reticent to sign to him.
westcoast dude - Sunday, January 01 2006 @ 10:51 PM EST (#138385) #
Here's a good example of why the Blue Jays are Canada's team and have been for many years: when they won the 1992 World Series the Times-Colonist in Victoria gave it the banner front page headline--in blue. The picture to go with the headline was the impromptu parade on the main drag, Douglas Street, with a dude hanging out a car window waving a Canadian flag. Our team holds this country together, man.
I was born in Toronto and went to Armour Heights in the late '50s when the brand new 401 went around the city and had a cloverleaf at Avenue Road and baseball meant Maple Leaf Stadium. We left town the year Elvis played Maple Leaf Gardens; cruisin' 1958, I was 9. All roads still lead to TO.
HollywoodHartman - Monday, January 02 2006 @ 12:19 PM EST (#138409) #
"One high-ranking major league executive who monitored Arizona's unloading of Troy Glaus to Toronto said, ''He really wanted to go to Boston." With two third basemen on the roster and no center fielder or shortstop, the Red Sox realized they couldn't burn potential trade pieces on Glaus, as much as they've long salivated over putting his swing in Fenway Park."
-- Boston Globe

Does this mean anything? Or is it just another article made up by reporters?
Named For Hank - Monday, January 02 2006 @ 02:07 PM EST (#138414) #
One high-ranking major league executive who monitored Arizona's unloading of Troy Glaus to Toronto said, ''He really wanted to go to Boston."

Unless that's a high-ranking Boston exec, how would they know? And if they were a high-ranking Boston exec, wouldn't that be what Arizona would want them to believe to try to get something good out of the trade?

Really, there's not much to this, if anything at all. He's a Jay; all other mutterings are just more sour-grapery from those who missed out on him.
Ron - Monday, January 02 2006 @ 07:12 PM EST (#138428) #
We are in the luss of FA and Bengie Molina, Durazo, Frank Thomas, Weaver, and Piazza are still in the market.

I don't hear any teams connected to any of those names.

I'll be interested to see how much money/years those players get.
VBF - Monday, January 02 2006 @ 07:39 PM EST (#138430) #
I think they're playing the Magglio game and waiting for desperate teams to do something for the sake of doing something.
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