Well done, Pistol. Thomas is so good, although he's not from a small town.
Indeed, Hurt's soo Good. Too bad old Expo hurler Jackie Brown didn't serve it up -- although, the way things have been going, he would've just said Walk Tall and left Thomas feeling like it's a Lonely Ol' Night.
No Jacks or Dianes were harmed in the writing of this e-mail.
Congrats to the man!
When you look back on his career and those several years when injury reduced him to a mere shadow of what he could have been...had he stayed healthy throughout his career I've no doubt we would have been seeing his 600th by now. I'm delighted for him. The man has become a REAL and HONEST face of success...it's an honour he did it as a Jay.
Now Frank, about number 600...how about late September 2009 at the Rogers Centre, in the ninth inning, the grand slam that puts us in first place, and sets us on our way to a three peat...WS winners in 2007, 2008 and 2009. Just like Frank, I like to dream big!
Congratulations Big Hurt! It's pretty darn cool to finally have someone in a Blue Jay uniform hitting such a milestone even if it's a tail end of the career last season or two type of thing. Heck, Carlos will probably hit 500 for someone else so why not the Jays getting in on it with someone as well. :)
Well if you're going to talk about what could have been, how about Griffey Jr.? Minus the injuries and honestly I beleive he'd be chasing 800. Would he be in smelling distance of 900? Who knows.
Minus the injuries and honestly I believe he'd [Griffey} be chasing 800.
That's probably a little extravagant. The injuries began to cut Griffey down in 2001, his second year in Cincinnati. Over the next six seasons, he missed more than 400 of his team's games.
He managed to play in 554 games during those seasons and hit 125 HRs. If he'd been able to suit up for, say, 900 games (150 each year), somewhere between 190-220 HRs seems reasonable. It's probably unrealistic to have expected him to play all of those games - they cover his age 31-36 seasons.
But essentially, his recent run of injuries cost him 70 to 100 career homers. Without them, he'd be close to 700, with a fighting chance for 800 if he could stay healthy for another three or four years. Instead of being close to 600, with a fighting chance for 700 if he stays healthy...
That's probably a little extravagant. The injuries began to cut Griffey down in 2001, his second year in Cincinnati. Over the next six seasons, he missed more than 400 of his team's games.
He managed to play in 554 games during those seasons and hit 125 HRs. If he'd been able to suit up for, say, 900 games (150 each year), somewhere between 190-220 HRs seems reasonable. It's probably unrealistic to have expected him to play all of those games - they cover his age 31-36 seasons.
But essentially, his recent run of injuries cost him 70 to 100 career homers. Without them, he'd be close to 700, with a fighting chance for 800 if he could stay healthy for another three or four years. Instead of being close to 600, with a fighting chance for 700 if he stays healthy...
Biggio also made it to 3000 hits tonight and the Padres have acquired Milton Bradley....oh boy what a clubhouse
Nice to see him get it out of the way, I think his poor start was at least in part due to this pending milestone. He has talked to the importance he places on this number (I'm sure most players are more numbers oriented then they'll let on, maybe he's just a little more honest) and I think it affected his approach.
Nice to see him get it out of the way, I think his poor start was at least in part due to this pending milestone. He has talked to the importance he places on this number (I'm sure most players are more numbers oriented then they'll let on, maybe he's just a little more honest) and I think it affected his approach.
Any insider care to summarize Rob Neyer's argument that Thomas is only a marginal Hall-of-Famer? Even without the milestone, his place on the career leaderboards for most other offensive stats makes him a lock to me. Quite simply the most potent offensive force in the AL for most of the 90s.
Unless Neyer is arguing that 500 HRs isn't the automatic ticket-punch it once was. That's an argument worth making.
Unless Neyer is arguing that 500 HRs isn't the automatic ticket-punch it once was. That's an argument worth making.
I am not an ESPN insider, but I would be shocked if Neyer is arguing that Frank Thomas is a marginal Hall of Famer. 500 HRs is not Frank Thomas' major qualification for the Hall. He was pretty clearly the best hitter overall in the American League from 1991-97. Among the all-time greats, he's not quite Ted Williams or Jimmie Foxx, but ahead of Hank Greenberg.
I agree with Neyer that 500 homers should not be an automatic pass into the Hall of Fame. But then, I'd much rather have Larry Walker or Fred McGriff on my club than Sammy Sosa.
I agree with Neyer that 500 homers should not be an automatic pass into the Hall of Fame. But then, I'd much rather have Larry Walker or Fred McGriff on my club than Sammy Sosa.
That's exactly what I thought. The headline is "500 HR no longer an automatic Hall pass" - good. Links to the article throughout the site though are "Neyer: Thomas no lock" or "Thomas a marginal HOF-er" - bad. I'm wondering if that's just an overzealous editor trying to stir the pot a bit (and get a few more subscriptions).
Ditto for everything Mike said, especially his speculation on Neyer's assessment.
An unfortunate byproduct of the Thomas homerun milestone, and to some degree his most recent seasons, is that there is now the threat that he's going to be perceived as just a homerun hitter. Of course, hitting homeruns was always big part of his game, but his hitting skills, especially during his peak, featured high batting averages and lots of walks. At his best, he was Wade Boggs with 40 homeruns.
Any insider care to summarize Rob Neyer's argument that Thomas is only a marginal Hall-of-Famer?
Forget a summary, I feel stupider just looking at that one-sentence description. Hurt was the dominant hitter in his league for a decade; not only has no similar player ever been left out of the Hall, no similar player is considered anything but an inner-circle guy. Is Jimmie Foxx only "marginal" too? Neyer thinks that Don Sutton and Bert Blyleven are sure Hall of Famers and that Frank Thomas is marginal, which I'm afraid says a lot more about Rob Neyer than it does about Frank Thomas.
Craig, I haven't read the Neyer piece (nor anything he's written since moving behind the wall). Does he actually say that? I can't fathom him taking that position on Thomas. Many other writers, yes, but not Neyer.
Unless Neyer is arguing that 500 HRs isn't the automatic ticket-punch it once was.
Pretty much.
And Neyer isn't arguing that Thomas is borderline in his eyes (he noted he was 11th in OPS all time), but that he may be borderline in the eyes of the voters.
The lesson as always is read the article before drawing conclusions from it, especially when the headline is designed to make you want to read the article.
Pretty much.
And Neyer isn't arguing that Thomas is borderline in his eyes (he noted he was 11th in OPS all time), but that he may be borderline in the eyes of the voters.
The lesson as always is read the article before drawing conclusions from it, especially when the headline is designed to make you want to read the article.
Here's a question. Who was the best position player not elected to the Hall of Fame by the writers? My initial thought would be Arky Vaughan.
And here's what Neyer posted in the comments field with this article:
Rob Neyer (6/28/2007 at 5:16 PM)
Okay. Let's take a deep breath . . . Got it? Cool. My *opinion* is that many of the voters will consider Thomas a marginal candidate. Voters typically under-appreciate walks, and if you take away Thomas's walks I'm not sure he's any better than Albert Belle or Edgar Martinez. I've been around for a while, and I've probably written that Thomas *should* be a Hall of Famer a few dozen times. But what I think and what the voters think don't always match up.
Thanks Pistol. I knew there had to be some subtlety that a four-word teaser couldn't capture. In that context, "Thomas no lock" makes infinitely more sense then "Thomas a marginal HOF-er". Coincidentally, the latter phrase has disappeared. Maybe it was all just a bad dream.
I cannot believe there are people out there who don't consider Thomas a lock for the hall. Even if he never hit 500 and didn't recover from the ankle injury he was a lock imo. Ten, just ten players ever have had a higher OPS then him EVER! even adjusted I believe he's about 16th all time.
Besides the numbers he was feared in his prime, hence The Big Hurt. 2 MVP awards, he hit for average, hit for power, has walked more then he's struck out ect ect. As mentioned he was the best hitter in the majors for several years but is also one of the top right handed bats of all time.
Besides the numbers he was feared in his prime, hence The Big Hurt. 2 MVP awards, he hit for average, hit for power, has walked more then he's struck out ect ect. As mentioned he was the best hitter in the majors for several years but is also one of the top right handed bats of all time.