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Twitter has all the news tonight.  Per Jordan Bastian the Jays are close to signing John McDonald to a one year $1.5m contract.  Jeff Blair tweets that a baseball guy with another organization said he thinks the Jays are 90% likely to trade Lyle Overbay at the winter meetings.  Finally Bastian twitters that the Jays have called on Yorvit Torrealba multiple times and are expected to make an offer.  Blair guesses that there is a 50% chance that Doc could be an ex-Jay after the winter meetings.

Bastian has posted a blog note about the rumours.

Expect the rumours to pick up next week after US Thanksgiving in advance of the winter meetings.

Twitter Rumours: Jays to Sign a Free Agent | 145 comments | Create New Account
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lexomatic - Tuesday, November 24 2009 @ 08:26 PM EST (#208669) #
fwiw i seem to remember torrealba being horrible defensively on some thign i saw on catcher defense recently. to be fair, zaun ranked pretty highly on non-throwing stuff.

on an unrelated note.. one positive of not having had a lincecum-rois trade is that we won't have to deal with lincecum's reported 23 million $ arbitration submission. he's obviously been smoking too much of something.

Gerry - Tuesday, November 24 2009 @ 08:38 PM EST (#208670) #

Fangraphs has Bill James 2010 projections on their player pages.  Interestingly Barajas and Torrealba are forecast to have almost identical OPS next season, Torrealba at .683 and Barajas at .680.  Torrealba's projection is lower than his 2009 performance, Barajas is projected to improve.

Torrealba had a strong playoff for Colorado, he is probably trying to cash in on that.

92-93 - Tuesday, November 24 2009 @ 08:51 PM EST (#208671) #
"to be fair, zaun ranked pretty highly on non-throwing stuff."

Is that an attempt at minimizing those evaluations? Zaun was a terrific receiver and plate blocker, so he SHOULD rank highly on non-throwing stuff.
timpinder - Tuesday, November 24 2009 @ 09:44 PM EST (#208672) #
Is Johnny Mac worth $1.5 million?  I know teams like the Rays and Mariners are playing "moneyball" by making up runs via undervalued defense instead of more expensive offense, but Johnny Mac is a complete hole in the lineup.  Any comments from the stat heads would be appreciated.
VBF - Tuesday, November 24 2009 @ 10:02 PM EST (#208673) #
Johnny Mac at 1.5 million is going to make Adam Everett a very happy man.

ayjackson - Tuesday, November 24 2009 @ 10:03 PM EST (#208674) #

but Johnny Mac is a complete hole

I don't think he's worth $1.5m, but let's not get personal.

Marc Hulet - Tuesday, November 24 2009 @ 10:03 PM EST (#208675) #
According to UZR, McDonald has been about average at shortstop over the past two seasons (in a smaller than normal sample size).  His bat then pulls down his WAR to a negative rating during that time frame. In '09, his WAR was exactly 0.0 , meaning he was worth about a league-average salary, which is certainly a lot less than $1.5 million.

With all that said, there is not much SS depth on the free market.

ayjackson - Tuesday, November 24 2009 @ 10:04 PM EST (#208676) #
So the Rockies sign Barajas, the Jays sign Torrealba, everybody gets a catcher and a sandwich pick.
Jim - Tuesday, November 24 2009 @ 10:50 PM EST (#208677) #
Good thing JMac got to play some outfield late in the season, he was able to convince the market how versatile he is :).

Johnny Mac would make more sense if Halladay was going to be back, but since I'm on the record assuming that having a good defense should help develop pitchers it still makes sense to me.  Hopefully the 1.5 million means he is the nominal starter and that they are going to let Scutaro walk barring some sort of scenario where Marco can't get a deal anywhere and comes back on a one or two year deal that is highly favorable to the team.

Jim - Tuesday, November 24 2009 @ 10:55 PM EST (#208678) #
In '09, his WAR was exactly 0.0 , meaning he was worth about a league-average salary,

If you were at 0.0 WAR you be worth replacement level salary, not a league average salary.   If we are going to go with pure theory, if you were a 0.0 WAR player you'd be worth the league minimum.  Fangraphs shows his value as 200k for 2009. They show his 0.1 WAR season from 2004 being worth 400k.
Jim - Tuesday, November 24 2009 @ 10:57 PM EST (#208679) #
Ah Marc, rereading your comment I see that you meant replacement level, you just typed league average.  It really would be nice if we could edit our comments on this site so I could delete the last one and avoid this one :).
jgadfly - Tuesday, November 24 2009 @ 11:09 PM EST (#208680) #

        According to MLB TradeRumors the Twins are looking to sign Harden and the Royals are looking to sign Bedard, both to short term incentive laden contracts. If both have good years then Harden might make the 'A' list and Bedard the "B' list and offering arbitration on their less than market contracts wouldn't be as big a risk if they accepted. Worth the chance  of catching the proverbial 'fire in a bottle'

         I seem to remember Boston building their system by signing freeagents and then collecting draft picks when they left a year or two later

TamRa - Tuesday, November 24 2009 @ 11:40 PM EST (#208681) #
I don't like it. I'd be ok with it at maybe half the price
Ryan Day - Tuesday, November 24 2009 @ 11:58 PM EST (#208682) #
$1.5 million seems like a lot of cash for a guy your manager nailed to the bench until Sctuaro could barely even walk. (23 of his 35 starts came in September) I can understand varying perceptions of his value, but the Jays didn't seem to think he was particularly valuable this year.
Jays2010 - Wednesday, November 25 2009 @ 12:24 AM EST (#208683) #
Perhaps the Jays will overpay for JMac's defence because, after going with Rolen and Scoot most of the year, they are planning on going with E5 at 3rd and Brandon Wood at SS (after he comes over in a Halladay deal). Perhaps this is the thinking? Either way, I hate this and pray it doesn't mean some combination of JMac and Sanchez or our waiver pickups get the SS at bats next year...
85bluejay - Wednesday, November 25 2009 @ 01:04 AM EST (#208684) #

I was hoping the Jays trade Halladay for quality prospects, not ML ready players like Bills(already 3 yrs in ML) and                                                                          

use the savings to sign Harden and Bedard to 1 yr contracts - Players get chance to prove health & showcase                                                                

themselves - Available to trade in July/draft picks - allow Zep & Cecil 1/2 season experience  in AAA  - But it looks

like the Jays are just going to pocket the Halladay salary savings.

Jays2010 - Wednesday, November 25 2009 @ 01:13 AM EST (#208685) #
I wonder if any GM has the grapes to sign Harden to a long term deal...maybe 4 years, but at a lower cost/yr. I doubt Harden would be amenable to this, but if AA gave him 4 years and $30 million, what the hell, it could lessen the blow of losing Doc. When he's healthy, he's a beast. For example, getting 140 A- innings from Harden and 70 C+ innings from Scott Richmond could be the equivalent of a number 2 starter...the one thing the Jays staff might have going for them are a number of replacement options at the back of the rotation...might as well get some ace production for 2/3rds of the year before going through our glut of back end starters...
The_Game - Wednesday, November 25 2009 @ 02:01 AM EST (#208686) #
John McDonald did nothing to deserve $1.5M from this team.

Torrealba is also a significant defensive downgrade from Barajas.

Jim - Wednesday, November 25 2009 @ 07:37 AM EST (#208687) #
But it looks

like the Jays are just going to pocket the Halladay salary savings.

I guess that's one way of looking at it... or they already spent it on Wells' escalating contract.

Richard S.S. - Wednesday, November 25 2009 @ 07:41 AM EST (#208688) #

This is defensive stuff for Torrealba: http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/t/torreyo01.shtml . This is defensive stuff for Barajas: http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/b/barajro01.shtml

Torrealba is also a significant defensive downgrade from Barajas. 

Anyone who can say something like this, is either, lazy and uninterested, or educationally defficient by choice.   (A.K.A.: can't be bothered to do the work or don't want to think about the result).

Yorvit Torrealba is 3 years younger than Barajas, more than good enough offensively and defensively to fit in well.  J.P. Arencibia will not be ready for the big club in 2010 - we need a starting catcher.   There is a good chance Arencibia will  not be ready for full-time catching duties in 2011 - we need a starting catcher.  Contract: two years plus an option year or two.  This is a changing of the culture of the club, something we will see a lot this off-season.

Thomas - Wednesday, November 25 2009 @ 08:06 AM EST (#208689) #
I think I'm going to die a slow and painful death over the course of the Halladay rumours.
Jim - Wednesday, November 25 2009 @ 08:09 AM EST (#208690) #
more than good enough offensively and defensively to fit in well.

I guess when you don't have a major league catcher on the roster he's 'more then good enough'.  He has put up 4 straight years of disgustingly bad numbers in the weaker league playing at Coors. 

Road OPS:
2007: .618
2008: .633
2009: .731

Since 2003 his highest OPS+ is 87, the one shot he got at a full time job it was 76.

The Rockies only paid him 7.5 million over the past two seasons (plus they get to give him a half million dollars to go away)... lucky them.

Can you explain how signing a catcher who can't hit at all and is past his 30th birthday is some sort of culture shift?
Chuck - Wednesday, November 25 2009 @ 08:16 AM EST (#208691) #

Yorvit Torrealba is 3 years younger than Barajas, more than good enough offensively and defensively to fit in well. 

OPS+ from ages 27 to 30: 78, 76, 72, 87.
WAR from ages 27 to 30: 0.5, 1.0, 0.3, 0.8.

He looks a whole lot closer to a 400K replacement level player than he does to someone "more than good enough offensively".

Chuck - Wednesday, November 25 2009 @ 08:18 AM EST (#208692) #
Or what Jim said.
lexomatic - Wednesday, November 25 2009 @ 08:26 AM EST (#208693) #
This is defensive stuff for Torrealba: http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/t/torreyo01.shtml . This is defensive stuff for Barajas: http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/b/barajro01.shtml Torrealba is also a significant defensive downgrade from Barajas. Anyone who can say something like this, is either, lazy and uninterested, or educationally defficient by choice. (A.K.A.: can't be bothered to do the work or don't want to think about the result).
not to keep picking a nit Richard, but this is what i was talking about when mentioning catcher defense. Torrealba comes out 94 out of 114 http://www.drivelinemechanics.com/2009/10/13/1082419/2009-catcher-defense-filling-in
Gerry - Wednesday, November 25 2009 @ 08:30 AM EST (#208694) #
I think I'm going to die a slow and painful death over the course of the Halladay rumours.
 
Let me add to your misery......
 
From ESPN: Report: Red Sox after Halladay

Citing an unnamed source, the New York Daily News reported on Tuesday that the team is "putting on a full-court press" to acquire Roy Halladay from the Toronto Blue Jays.  "They would love to get it wrapped up before the winter meetings [beginning Dec. 7]," the source said, according to the newspaper.

Geoff - Wednesday, November 25 2009 @ 08:30 AM EST (#208695) #
Anyone who can say something like this, is either, lazy and uninterested, or educationally defficient by choice.

You misspelled deficient, but the automatic spell check probably told you that. Just piling on.
Matthew E - Wednesday, November 25 2009 @ 08:46 AM EST (#208696) #
However, Torrealba is, by far, the greatest baseball player in history named "Yorvit".
ayjackson - Wednesday, November 25 2009 @ 08:52 AM EST (#208697) #
Automatic spell check??  Cool, I guess I've never spelt a werd wrong on here!
John Northey - Wednesday, November 25 2009 @ 08:59 AM EST (#208698) #
To me the Red Sox being full-bore on for Halladay is a good thing.  Lets hope AA puts the screws to them and gets all of their top prospects or the same from the Yanks.  It'll improve that team for a few years but if we get good enough prospects who work out it could be a steal in the end (thinking of the Expos giving up a young Randy Johnson and 2 others for a veteran ace years ago). 

As much as I hate losing Halladay I can't forget how Stieb's career ended after 1990 for all intents and purposes, a year where he had a no-hitter and his career high in wins.  With pitchers you never know when that inning limit will be hit.

Jim - Wednesday, November 25 2009 @ 09:00 AM EST (#208699) #
As much as I hate the idea of Halladay being a Red Sock they at least have players you'd want back in return and he is a such a perfect fit you can see Boston 'overpaying' in relation to the other suitors.   Potentially the worst thing about the move for 2010 is that it really puts Tampa behind the 8-ball, because as crazy as it sounds their window is already starting to close.
Geoff - Wednesday, November 25 2009 @ 09:04 AM EST (#208700) #
That's not the case but you will have those werds underlined for you if you are interested. Or even if you're not.
Mike Green - Wednesday, November 25 2009 @ 09:15 AM EST (#208701) #
I don't like the potential McDonald move at all, unless one is going to play him every day as a starter, with the intent of writing off the season. 

If you are actually trying to win in 2010 at least to some degree, it does not make sense to sign a bench player of McDonald's quality (let alone at this salary) when you do not know who your starting shortstop will be.  For instance, if you sign Adam Everett, you may wish to look for a left-handed hitting shortstop with a somewhat passable bat. 

ayjackson - Wednesday, November 25 2009 @ 09:32 AM EST (#208702) #
I'm still clinging to the hope that the rumour is false, or the money is false (or incentive based).
rtcaino - Wednesday, November 25 2009 @ 09:38 AM EST (#208703) #
No catchers on the major league roster? That doesn't sound like any teams I follow.

I am really hoping that AA is using the sox and yanks to drive up doc's price to then jettison him to the NL (or atleast the AL west).
greenfrog - Wednesday, November 25 2009 @ 09:44 AM EST (#208704) #
The Jays are signing McDonald because the team isn't going to contend, Scutaro is headed elsewhere and the team is short on infield prospects (at least, in the high minors). J-Mac can be a placeholder until the 2011 (and beyond) version of the team starts to take shape.

The Red Sox need to at least make a run at Halladay. There seems to be a perception out there that the Jays shouldn't really expect much for Doc b/c he only has a year remaining on his contract. For example, this is from Eric Seidman's recent chat on BP:

"Jim Clancy (Exhibition Stadium): Last week, Joe Sheehan scared me thoroughly with his accurate assessment of the bind the Blue Jays are in regarding Halladay. As much as I think he's right, could you please present the rosy picture for the team and make my day in the process? Thank you.

Eric Seidman: No, because I'm always a brutally honest person. There is nothing rosy about this picture. By publicly stating he will not re-sign and all of the hoopla surrounding last year's deadline, as well as the idea that teams will supposedly part with less because they won't have Doc for that extra half-year, and the very short list of teams with prospects and money to pull off such a deal, it is unlikely anyone will offer up multiple top-tier guys, forcing the Jays to sell low. Another question in this queue asked if the Yankees would part with Hughes/Montero/Jackson and I highly doubt they would even need to go that far."

The Bosox are undoubtedly trying to capitalize on that perception and execute a Lee-type deal. Or at least prevent the Yankees from getting him on the cheap (for example, in a Joba-plus-Jackson type of deal, which would be a mistake for the Jays IMO).
Matthew E - Wednesday, November 25 2009 @ 09:51 AM EST (#208705) #
Then I'd rather just take the draft picks. Anthopoulos's infinite legions of scouts ought to be able to make something valuable out of them, right? I'd rather that than turn Roy Halladay over to some lowballing melon farmer with a cellphone. Stephen King said it best when he said, "No bounce, no play."
Jim - Wednesday, November 25 2009 @ 09:57 AM EST (#208706) #
The draft picks create a number of  issues:

1.  They are players who won't even arrive in the SYSTEM until June of 2011.
2.  They could end up being something like the 38th and 63rd picks. 
3.  You've got to pay them bonuses

If you make a trade, the players arrive now, project to help the major league club sooner and they have already been paid their bonuses. 

Hughes/Montero/Jackson is just ridiculous.  If they could get anything close to that deal they would make it immediately. 

FranklyScarlet - Wednesday, November 25 2009 @ 09:59 AM EST (#208707) #
More talk from Schilling re: Boston going after Halladay:

http://38pitches.weei.com/

Chuck - Wednesday, November 25 2009 @ 10:15 AM EST (#208708) #

The Jays are signing McDonald because the team isn't going to contend, Scutaro is headed elsewhere and the team is short on infield prospects (at least, in the high minors).

Have the Jays formally announced that they won't be offering Scutaro arbitration? I had guessed that they would, to either get him to return at a decent rate for one year, or to get the draft picks. If the talk about the Red Sox being interested in him turns out to be overblown (and they have no interest of giving up the compensation draft picks), then Scutaro may look at what Abreu and Hudson had to settle for last year, as type A free agents, and decide to accept arbitration.

I would want Scutaro's fate sorted out before locking in McDonald. McDonald as a 1.5MM starter is scarcely defensible. As a 1.5MM backup, it's entirely insane.

timpinder - Wednesday, November 25 2009 @ 10:56 AM EST (#208709) #
Halladay to the Red Sox would be perfect.  The Sox seem like the best fit since they can send back a young starter with front-of-the-rotation stuff, a young switch-hitting SS who might be able to lead off, and any number of younger prospects.  If they signed Scutaro to play SS, that would be the icing on the cake.  Also, the Red Sox are me second favourite team (sorry), which would make it a lot easier to cheer for Doc!
PeterG - Wednesday, November 25 2009 @ 11:15 AM EST (#208711) #
Curt Schilling talking on 38pitches does not agree with the low ball offers many of you are expecting for Halladay. He suggests that the Red Sox pull out all the stops - 3 impact kids and a 4th who has a real shot.
85bluejay - Wednesday, November 25 2009 @ 11:32 AM EST (#208713) #

If Casey Kelly becomes a dealbreaker, then I hope AA switches to Paul Westmoreland as the Jays could use more positional prospects with upside and

kelly seems to be a player with a headstrong personality (both good/bad trait), who it seems still has to be convinced to give up ss and just pitch. 

Mike Green - Wednesday, November 25 2009 @ 11:36 AM EST (#208714) #
I sure hope that the club is offering Scutaro arbitration.  And it is true, as Chuck points out, that it would be insane to sign McDonald at 1.5 million if one does not know whether Scutaro will be back or not. 
Matthew E - Wednesday, November 25 2009 @ 11:42 AM EST (#208715) #

The draft picks create a number of  issues:

1.  They are players who won't even arrive in the SYSTEM until June of 2011.
2.  They could end up being something like the 38th and 63rd picks. 
3.  You've got to pay them bonuses

If you make a trade, the players arrive now, project to help the major league club sooner and they have already been paid their bonuses.

That's true, but there are competing advantages to taking the draft picks.

1. You get one more year of Roy Halladay, and that's worth something. And who knows what could happen in that one year? Maybe he'll change his mind.

2. If other teams are really only offering scrap metal and donuts for Halladay, then the draft picks could turn out to have not just  more value, but a lot more value.

I don't really think the Jays are ever going to be a good team again anyway, so in that sense it doesn't matter to me what they do, but just because they're doomed doesn't mean they have to roll over for the first team who offers them a 24-year-old shortstop who might hit .240 in a good year. Particularly the Red Sox and Yankees; why make it easy for them?

Jim - Wednesday, November 25 2009 @ 11:45 AM EST (#208716) #
I'm working under the assumption that they can do better then 2 picks that could end up being the 30's and higher.  Yeah, if they can't do better then that it makes no sense.  Every indication is that there is some good interest and hopefully the worst case scenario is what the Phillies got for Lee.

Denoit - Wednesday, November 25 2009 @ 11:47 AM EST (#208717) #
I don't mind if the Jays trade Halladay to the Yankees or RedSox. If you think about it, there is probably at least 50% chance he lands on one of those two teams in 2011 anyways. There will probably only be 4 or 5 teams he will be interested in when he has his choice. So the Jays might as well take the best package available.
Mike Green - Wednesday, November 25 2009 @ 11:49 AM EST (#208718) #
In the particular case of the Jays of 2010, it is probably better to have a prospect (hence draft picks) who may be expected to help you in 2014-15 and later than 2011 and following. Due to the Wells' contract, this team is more likely to compete later rather than sooner.   

The major motivation for trading Doc ought to be simply fairness to him (provided a fair return comes back).  Getting an inadequate and rapidly blooming return is the worst of both worlds for the club. 

Mike Green - Wednesday, November 25 2009 @ 11:51 AM EST (#208719) #
And what the Indians got for Lee would be exactly the kind of deal I am talking about.  They are better off with the picks.
Jim - Wednesday, November 25 2009 @ 12:23 PM EST (#208720) #
While I wouldn't want the Lee package, if you let Halladay leave for picks there is a pretty good chance you've got the worst record in baseball between 2011 and 2014.

Playing for 75 wins is a terrible way to run a franchise, but if you put together a couple of 60 win seasons you might put the franchise in a cycle that it can never break out of. 

While I see the timing of the 2011 draft picks hitting the majors in 2015, I see the potential risk of losing 300 games between 2011 and 2013 and that scares me more then what the potential upside is on the 45th pick in the 2011 draft. 

Unless the draft changes, picks outside of the top 10 aren't that valuable anyway.  If you are willing to bust slot you can get prospects without extra picks anyway. 

You could trade Halladay for the Lee package and then spend Halladay's salary busting slot on every pick in the 2010 draft where you already have extra picks and you'd be way better off then waiting around for 2 picks 20 months from now.

John Northey - Wednesday, November 25 2009 @ 12:27 PM EST (#208721) #
McDonald for $1.5 is nuts - he is a backup who, if playing regularly, will hit around 60-70 OPS+ if you are lucky.  Still, it is a small part of the payroll for 2010, is a one year deal, and in the end $1.5 mil is under 2% of the Jays ML budget for 2010 (if it is $75 mil or more) and I doubt that the potential $1 mil savings for a minor leaguer over McDonald will make the difference in any free agent signings this winter.   Still, it is the type of deal I'd avoid.  Perhaps an incentive based where he gets $500k locked in and another $100k for every 15 games played which could up his salary to that $1.5 million if he gets into 150+ games (brrr....)

As to Halladay to the Red Sox - I could live with that better than the Yankees as the Sox appear to have been a quality organization lately and Halladay deserves to be in that type of situation and to have a shot at a WS win.  The Yankees I just can not stand regardless of anything else.  Still, in the end, the best deal is what AA has to go for - get a top quality SS (or CA) prospect near the majors and some other quality parts.
christaylor - Wednesday, November 25 2009 @ 12:38 PM EST (#208722) #
"I don't really think the Jays are ever going to be a good team again anyway, so in that sense it doesn't matter to me what they do..."

Really? Talk about unjustifiable fatalism.

The Jays were most certainly a good team from 2006-2008. Last time I checked that wasn't that long ago.

It matters a ton what the team does about Halladay. However, it has to be dictated by the offers. JP got it right, if the offers are not there, don't bother trading. Wait for the offers to come, if not, take the picks. Losing Halladay isn't the end of the world, despite the hand-wringing of many fans.
Matthew E - Wednesday, November 25 2009 @ 01:13 PM EST (#208724) #

"I don't really think the Jays are ever going to be a good team again anyway, so in that sense it doesn't matter to me what they do..."

Really? Talk about unjustifiable fatalism.

The Jays were most certainly a good team from 2006-2008. Last time I checked that wasn't that long ago.

Okay, well, strictly speaking you're right. It's likely that the Jays will find their way back to the 85-win neighbourhood a few more times before I die, perhaps even sooner than 2020. But that's about as optimistic as I'm willing to get.

Basically I think major league baseball in Toronto is broken. It's fixable, but I don't think any humans exist who are simultaneously interested in fixing it, able to fix it, and in a position to fix it.

greenfrog - Wednesday, November 25 2009 @ 01:54 PM EST (#208725) #
One thing people often forget is that the team that acquires Doc also gets two high draft picks for him at the end of 2010 (unless they extend him). So, basically, the acquiring team gets Doc at a reasonable price ($15.75M) for one year, a great chance at a WS championship, *and* two high picks. Plus, Halladay is fast becoming a legend around baseball, and is a great influence to have around, which is a bonus (and could translate into increased revenue).

Personally, I think AA should worry more about acquiring 19- and 20-year-olds like Westmoreland and Kelly than 25-year-olds like Buchholz and Billingsley, who are accruing service time and will be expensive and/or eligible for free agency by the time the Jays are contending again. As a fan, I have no interest in being placated by the Jays' acquiring a "major-league ready" player--that was Ricciardi's thing (and Achilles' heel, arguably).
jmoney - Wednesday, November 25 2009 @ 02:02 PM EST (#208726) #
I think Dodgers will be going hard after Roy. They saw what Lee did for the Phillies and how thin their own pitching was.
Bid - Wednesday, November 25 2009 @ 02:17 PM EST (#208727) #
On Boston.com, the "Jays are reportedly asking for Clay Buchholz along with top prospect Casey Kelly."
Marc Hulet - Wednesday, November 25 2009 @ 02:41 PM EST (#208728) #
It would be an inept move to not offer Scutaro arbitration. At his age, he's not going to take a one-year deal from the Jays in hopes of getting a bigger contract after 2010 with '09 being a career year (no doubt). And if the Jays don't offer arb, they don't get the added draft picks; they HAVE to get those to help build the system back up. Even if Scutaro does take the arb offer, he's not going to get a bank-breaking contract from the arb process.
FranklyScarlet - Wednesday, November 25 2009 @ 02:55 PM EST (#208729) #
JP asked for Kelly this summer and Boston would not include him in the package. 
Gerry - Wednesday, November 25 2009 @ 03:08 PM EST (#208730) #

The Jays are bringing back Sal Fasano.

Fasano has been appointed manager of the Lansing Lugnuts.  He will be joined by John Tamargo as hitting coach.

Last years manager Clayton McCullough is now at a team unknown.  The Jays top three teams all need new managers.  Mike Basso and Gary Cathcart were released by the Jays and Dunedin manager Omar Malave is now a coach in Toronto.  Assuming he is still with the organization McCullough could end up with Dunedin.

John Northey - Wednesday, November 25 2009 @ 03:11 PM EST (#208731) #
In the summer they probably thought that JP would give in, but this winter is a different situation with the Yankees and Dodgers both hot to trot as well.  However, Kelly really looks good - a shortstop who didn't hit but now looks like a pitcher who could be really good really soon.  I fully understand why Boston wouldn't want to give him up but if I'm AA I'd be insisting on it.

Buchholtz (or another ML ready guy) if they have enough potential could cover Doc's slot or at least appear to for a few years then be traded for more high level prospects if things work out.  Remember, wins do help revenue even when your team is just fighting for 500 rather than a title.  I recall studies showing how marginal wins are still worth millions to a team at the 70 and 80 win level with a jump when you are close to playoff level thanks to the expanded playoffs.

Gerry - Wednesday, November 25 2009 @ 04:35 PM EST (#208732) #

The Jays announced most of their minor league staff this afternoon.  Here is the announcement.  There are a lot of new names coming into the organization, hopefully they will pay off in better development.

As of now Chad Mottola is listed as the hitting coach for both las Vegas and Dunedin, I assume that will change.

In addition to Fasano, pete Walker is back in the Jays organization, he is the rehab pitching coach.

Gerry - Wednesday, November 25 2009 @ 04:37 PM EST (#208733) #
Ba's weekly transactions notes that the Jays have resigned Davis Romero and Kyle Phillips.
92-93 - Wednesday, November 25 2009 @ 05:51 PM EST (#208734) #
"McDonald for $1.5 is nuts - he is a backup who, if playing regularly, will hit around 60-70 OPS+ if you are lucky."

How does guaranteeing him 2 years, 3m sound then? Unbelievable.
Thomas - Wednesday, November 25 2009 @ 06:00 PM EST (#208735) #
I think they've since corrected that Gerry, as now Justin Mashore is listed as the hitting coach at Dunedin.

Count me among those who had no idea that Dennis Holmberg, who is returning as the manager in Auburn, has been a coach or manager in the Jays system since 1978. That is impressive.
Jim - Wednesday, November 25 2009 @ 06:15 PM EST (#208736) #
I don't believe what I just saw. 

Forkball - Wednesday, November 25 2009 @ 06:52 PM EST (#208737) #
Two years to me is not a good sign for AA.
Gerry - Wednesday, November 25 2009 @ 06:58 PM EST (#208738) #

Why?

Why two years?

Was anyone else even interested in Johnny Mc?

andrewkw - Wednesday, November 25 2009 @ 07:14 PM EST (#208739) #
I just threw up a little bit...

I guess that career year offensively for Mac really justified a multi year deal.  Plus now he is also a corner outfielder in his spare time.

andrewkw - Wednesday, November 25 2009 @ 07:18 PM EST (#208740) #
The only way this move is remotely logical is if it was aimed to appease fans who are about lose their favorite player.  They can keep their second favorite player who although sucks (to put it simply) is a very nice guy.

If they are already looking to appease the fan base this early into the rebuild it's not going to go well.

Thomas - Wednesday, November 25 2009 @ 07:32 PM EST (#208741) #
To answer Gerry's rhetorical questions:

1) Because they need a shortstop if and when Scutaro leaves and the market is slim

2) No idea.

3) Yes, but probably nobody was at two years or $1.5 million per, let alone both.

There's no reason this decision should affect whether or not they offer Scutaro arbitration, but if they choose not to I'm going to be flummoxed. As for AA, I had very little negative to say about his first six weeks or so on the job, but this is a very strange move.
Alex Obal - Wednesday, November 25 2009 @ 08:04 PM EST (#208742) #
I am utterly bamboozled by question #2. Not a great start.
fozzy - Wednesday, November 25 2009 @ 08:10 PM EST (#208743) #
Meanwhile, Wilson Valdez, who about where MacDonald is offensively and defensively, just signed for a minor league deal with the Phillies, without an guaranteed ST invite. Even Omar Vizquel only took a single year at less money. Adam Everett? Craig Counsell?

If the Jays were going to pay for an all-defence, no offense SS solution (which JMac isn't even anymore), then they might as well have given it to Angel Sanchez in September of last year, and gone scrounging around the bargain bin this off-season. Colour me unimpressed with AA's first signing (and I say this as a fan of his), especially after all this talk about increasing scouting and identifying players' strengths.

Jim - Wednesday, November 25 2009 @ 08:16 PM EST (#208744) #
I'm sure they are offering Scutaro arbitration.  There is no way AA could get to this job at that young age and be that stupid.
christaylor - Wednesday, November 25 2009 @ 08:33 PM EST (#208745) #
At least JP only went two years at a $1M per when J-Mac actually looked like a good defensive SS but even that was a screw up.

Now this - this is insane and this is the sound of any good will or benefit of the doubt I was giving the AA regime. J-Mac is a replacement player and he ought to be paid like one.

Ick. This is bad. Very bad. It will be a bad decision mitigated only if Scutaro is resigned. Even then, $3M/years for a bench warmer (especially if Cito returns). Adam Everett's day was just made.
timpinder - Wednesday, November 25 2009 @ 08:34 PM EST (#208746) #

To echo everyone else, why two years?  I'm going to be especially annoyed if Halladay nets someone like Lowrie, and the Jays end up paying MacDonald $3 million to be an occasional late inning defensive replacement for Encarnacion.

Man, Torrealba and MacDonald will kill the back end of the Jays' lineup (if the Jays do in fact sign Torrealba too).  Unless, of course, Gaston goes with his original plan to use MacDonald in the lead-off spot.   Is this a bad dream?

92-93 - Wednesday, November 25 2009 @ 08:34 PM EST (#208747) #
"As for AA, I had very little negative to say about his first six weeks or so on the job, but this is a very strange move."

Did you have anything positive to say? He hasn't done anything yet but blow smoke up the media's asses and get applauded for it because he's Canadian.
92-93 - Wednesday, November 25 2009 @ 08:36 PM EST (#208748) #
"It will be a bad decision mitigated only if Scutaro is resigned."

For me it's the opposite - the move gets worse when I read from Bastian that the team is still looking for a starting SS.
Alex Obal - Wednesday, November 25 2009 @ 08:50 PM EST (#208749) #
I agree with 92-93. This team has absolutely no business paying $1.5 million to backups who never play, unless it has designs on contending now.
Mike Green - Wednesday, November 25 2009 @ 09:09 PM EST (#208750) #
2 years, 3 million? Is the club rolling in money and not telling anyone? Over the last 4 years, McDonald is, according to Fangraphs, a slightly below replacement level player.  He is 35 years old, so is likely to be worse than that next year and the year following.  The only "justification" for this signing would be if the club wants to play him every day and maximize their chances of getting the first overall pick.  They could have achieved this purpose while spending 800K over the 2 years.


Alex Obal - Wednesday, November 25 2009 @ 09:15 PM EST (#208751) #
Perhaps McDonald is so popular that his mere presence on the team sells tickets and t-shirts, which wouldn't be sold in his absence?

I don't know.
James W - Wednesday, November 25 2009 @ 09:26 PM EST (#208752) #

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&page=rumblings091119

Jayson Stark thinks the Jays are pulling in at least $80 million before selling a single ticket.  So if he's correct, the club is rolling in money and not telling.

Matthew E - Wednesday, November 25 2009 @ 09:35 PM EST (#208753) #
I didn't think this until now, but...

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

Alex Obal - Wednesday, November 25 2009 @ 09:42 PM EST (#208754) #
Which old boss?
andrewkw - Wednesday, November 25 2009 @ 10:04 PM EST (#208755) #
They must believe McDonald sells tickets.  There is no other logical explanation. 
Jdog - Wednesday, November 25 2009 @ 10:05 PM EST (#208756) #
Way too much ink wasted on this. Who cares how much they pay their bench players its not your money. And from the sounds of things the Jays are not on a strict budget so its not going to affect anything but Rogers pockets. Could I think of better things to do with 3 million, of course. But spending 1.5 million on your utility infielder is hardly reason for anarchy.
Matthew E - Wednesday, November 25 2009 @ 10:07 PM EST (#208757) #
Which old boss?

I mean Anthopoulos has done something here that reminds me of Ricciardi.
Magpie - Wednesday, November 25 2009 @ 10:08 PM EST (#208758) #
Well, this has sure got me counting the days until pitchers and catchers report.
greenfrog - Wednesday, November 25 2009 @ 10:29 PM EST (#208759) #
The McDonald thing doesn't faze me. I want to see how AA handles the Doc situation and the 2010 draft.

One thing that hasn't been discussed much is: where does Doc genuinely *want* to play? I seem to remember Brandi Halladay saying something to the effect of wanting to play for a team that has earned its way into contention, not one that basically buys a championship (like New York). I could see him in Anaheim, Philadelphia or maybe Boston. I have a harder time seeing him in gilded pinstripes. But he might prefer the Bronx to a few more years of mediocrity in Toronto.

Thomas - Wednesday, November 25 2009 @ 10:48 PM EST (#208760) #
Did you have anything positive to say? He hasn't done anything yet but blow smoke up the media's asses and get applauded for it because he's Canadian.

He hired Sal Fasano to coach in the minors. Sal Fasano is cool.

timpinder - Wednesday, November 25 2009 @ 11:22 PM EST (#208761) #
Is it a huge deal that AA signed a guy for $3 million who will probably be worse than Angel Sanchez would have been, but for five times the money?  Not really.  It's not my money and it's not like I was expecting the Jays to be remotely competitive in 2010 (or 2011 - 2014 for that matter).  What's upsetting me is that I suddenly feel as though it's Groundhog Day.  It's a Ricciardi contract, reincarnate.  I finally had a little optimism about change and was ready to endure 5 years of rebuilding with youth, but this is silliness.
andrewkw - Wednesday, November 25 2009 @ 11:37 PM EST (#208762) #
It's a bad signing period.  It may not cause long term damage but is that how we're going to rate contracts now?  Some contracts work out, lots of them don't.  This is a case of why take the chance.

No good can come out of giving McDonald a multi year deal none!  Bring him back to back up the infield if you must because he is a popular guy, fine.  Give him limited at bats and use him at what he does best defense fine.  I'd even go as far as to say overpaying him is fine because he's a nice guy and a lot of worse people get a lot more, but giving him a second year just does not make sense.   If you're happy with what he does bring him back on another 1 year deal in 2010.  No one is bidding for his services.  This is not to say he can't get a job elsewhere but the offers are not pouring in.  By all indications he likes it here regardless of role and is not going to jump ship for 100k more elsewhere in 2010.  Even if he does who's to say your plans wont change by then.



TamRa - Thursday, November 26 2009 @ 12:25 AM EST (#208763) #
Regardless of how good or bad the J-Mac deal is - I really wish that Sanchez would get a full time job with someone next year just so his rooting section could find out just how BAD an option he is.

I've seldom been more mystified than i am concerning how so many people seem to think Sanchez is a major league level player.

On a different note, Bastian's peice about this seemed to suggest that AA was getting close to SIGNING his full time guy - given the shape of the available options, this worries me a lot more than J-mac because outside of Scoot, there's no signing I will even remotely like.

(Well, Tejada maybe but he makes no sense in our "building" program)

I was hoping for a trade. Hell talk the dodgers out of chin Lung Hu before you spend a nickle on O-Cab or some other aging bum.

How about Avilas? the Royals are said to be open to dealing him. Is his defense capeable? or at least possibly capeable if a little Butter is applied?


TamRa - Thursday, November 26 2009 @ 12:45 AM EST (#208764) #
At least JP only went two years at a $1M per when J-Mac actually looked like a good defensive SS but even that was a screw up.

This is incorrect. McDonald made $3.8 million over his last two year deal.




I'm going to be especially annoyed if Halladay nets someone like Lowrie, and the Jays end up paying MacDonald $3 million to be an occasional late inning defensive replacement for Encarnacion.

Actually it would make MORE sense if the Jays were to get a guy like Lowrie. McDonald would stand to serve pretty much exactly the same role that Vizquel played to Andrus this last year (and as he might do for Ramirez in Chicago) which is to say be the veteran leather wizard who can help tutor the younger and rawer starter.

An on-field infield coach as it were (and may foreshadow a coaching future in the organization)

Where this deal would NOT make as much sense is if they went out and signed a gray-beard like Cabrera to be the starter.
TamRa - Thursday, November 26 2009 @ 01:10 AM EST (#208765) #
That's not the case but you will have those werds underlined for you if you are interested. Or even if you're not.

Yes, but how do you get it to give you the correct spelling on a word you are always getting wrong?


The_Game - Thursday, November 26 2009 @ 01:21 AM EST (#208766) #
Anyone who can say something like this, is either, lazy and uninterested, or educationally defficient by choice. (A.K.A.: can't be bothered to do the work or don't want to think about the result).

I'm not exactly sure who you are or why you think fielding percentage and range factor are valid evaluative stats, but you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.


http://www.drivelinemechanics.com/2009/10/13/1082419/2009-catcher-defense-filling-in

Once again, Torrealba is a significant defensive downgrade on Barajas.
TamRa - Thursday, November 26 2009 @ 01:22 AM EST (#208767) #
couple more thoughts:

re Torellaba - I'd just assune go with Chavez/Barrett and Phillips in reserve as do that.

re the Halladay deal - i can live with Roy in Boston, as long as it's not NY. one of the advantages of dealing with Boston is that they will do all they can to be sure the Yanks don't sign him which all I ask is that Doc never plays for the Yankees.
That said, i like the idea of dealing with the Angels too, or the Dodgers. i think one of the best ways to make a doc deal work is come off the idea that you HAVE to get a pitcher in the return. We have plenty of pitchers, it's true none of them are true #1 types but prying away one of those guys, even if it can be done, is going to really limit how much else you get in the deal.

Push comes to shove, i'd rather get 3/4 guys who are going to be real contributors at a position of need than get a potential replacement ace.

Put another way - if the Cubs would give us Castro and 2-3 other B+ guys and none of them were a SP, I'd do that.


The_Game - Thursday, November 26 2009 @ 01:27 AM EST (#208768) #
Oh, and obviously the McDonald deal is poor. It didn't make any sense when Ricciardi made basically the same deal two years ago, and it doesn't make any sense now.

$3M for a backup, simply because he's a fan favourite? Sigh...

Mike Forbes - Thursday, November 26 2009 @ 02:13 AM EST (#208769) #
Here's a question I've been pondering... Out of all these potential Roy Halladay trade targets mentioned in rumors thus far, which one would you prefer and why?

Chad Billingsley, Dodgers
Clay Buchholz, Red Sox
Joba Chamberlain, Yankees
Philip Hughes, Yankees
Ervin Santana, Angels
Jered Weaver, Angels
Other.

I honestly would take Clay Buchholz out of that list. He'll never be Doc Halladay, but he's going to a couple All Star games in the future. That and I think the BoSox have the ability to present the best package with Casey Kelly and Josh Reddick coming back (In a perfect world).  I see the Angels as the worst match trading partner wise.
dan gordon - Thursday, November 26 2009 @ 02:30 AM EST (#208770) #

This 2 year deal for Johnny Mac is absolutely nuts.  Not worth that big a salary and why go for 2 years?  I can't believe he would be offered anything close to that by another team.  Frankly I was really hoping, and expecting, he wouldn't be back, at any price.  The truly frightening thing is that our new GM thinks that this is a good deal (obviously, or he wouldn't have done it).  I was not impressed with the decision to bring Cito back and now this abomination.  I shudder to think that the person making the personnel decisions for the Blue Jays is a guy who thinks it is a good idea to give Johnny Mac this deal.  This is the kind of mismanagement the Maple Leafs have been fumbling around with for decades.  I have lost any hope I had that AA is a competent GM.  If his player judgement ability is this bad, we are in for a very dark era for Blue Jays baseball.

Dave Till - Thursday, November 26 2009 @ 06:31 AM EST (#208771) #
Spending money on Johnny Mac is bad if: (a) there are better options available; (b) it wastes money that could be spent elsewhere. I don't know whether either of these is true.

SK in NJ - Thursday, November 26 2009 @ 07:53 AM EST (#208772) #
What a stupid signing (McDonald). One year was bad enough, but two? For one of the worst hitters in all of baseball whose defense has slipped over the years? This is 100 times worse than when JPR signed him two years ago.

This franchise nickel and dimes the draft picks last year but shells out that money to John McDonald without blinking an eye? What a joke. Now we expect the same man (AA) to trade the best player in franchise history for an adequate return. Yeah, color me pessimistic on that one.

I will reserve judgment on AA, but he is off to a pretty bad start. The McDonald signing doesn't mean a whole heck of a lot in the long run, but for a GM to sweet talk the media about scouting and being ahead of the curve to go out and make this type of move is mind boggling.

Chuck - Thursday, November 26 2009 @ 07:57 AM EST (#208773) #
McDonald signed. Talk of Torrealba. Be still my heart.

AA is working hard to corner the market on replacement level talent. Someone might have to explain to him why it's called replacement level in the first place.
Chuck - Thursday, November 26 2009 @ 08:13 AM EST (#208774) #
For one of the worst hitters in all of baseball

SK, your words are simply not strong enough. As a hitter, McDonald is historically bad with a career OPS+ of 57.
China fan - Thursday, November 26 2009 @ 09:12 AM EST (#208775) #

I really don't understand the fury and loathing over McDonald's new contract.   He's not signed as a hitter, he's signed as a utility infielder, for defensive purposes, to serve as the back-up at SS and 2B and 3B.   Every team needs a guy like that.  Rarely will any team get much offensive production from a back-up infielder, so it's a little absurd to condemn McDonald as a poor hitter when he is manifestly not expected to be a hitter.  If you're going to denounce McDonald as a poor hitter, let's also denounce the DH for his lack of defensive abilities.  It's a bit irrelevant, isn't it?

It's very clear, from AA's public statements in the past day, that McDonald is not the starter, he's a back-up.  The team is planning to acquire another SS to be the starter.  Whoever ends up at SS and 3B, they won't be playing every inning of every game, and they might get injured.  Same goes for Aaron Hill.  The Jays need a good defensive infielder to be the back-up, and McDonald is probably one of the better ones available.  By the way, he's also a useful pinch-runner, which the team also needs.

The other criticism is the money.  He's getting $1.5-million a season, which is less than he received for the previous two seasons.  Is it still too much?  It depends on the team's overall payroll, which we don't know yet.  So let's wait and see the total payroll.   If McDonald is getting $1.5-million from a $50-million payroll, that's one thing.  If he's getting $1.5-million from a $90-million payroll, that's quite a different thing.  It's a little unfair to AA to attack him for over-paying a player until we know the total budget. 

Moreover, I'm not even sure if AA could find someone of McDonald's defensive calibre at a much lower price.  Maybe he could save a few hundred thousand dollars by bringing in someone new -- probably someone younger and less experienced.  Is that really worth the meager savings?  If the Jays are paying a slight premium to retain a veteran who knows the team, knows the coaches, can provide some veteran leadership and stability, and is a good influence in the clubhouse, I wouldn't quibble a lot.  It seems rather excessive to condemn AA in vitriolic and hate-filled terms for a contract that might be a few hundred thousand dollars higher than necessary.  Let's give the guy a chance, see who he acquires at SS, see the size of his total payroll, and then judge the guy.

Flex - Thursday, November 26 2009 @ 09:15 AM EST (#208776) #
All this Sturm und Drang over a $1.5mil/year contract. My God. You folks have obviously never managed a department. First of all, he's giving the player a pay-cut. He's just not squeezing the blood out of him, maybe so that he can be persuaded to stick around as a coach in a few years. Second of all, there's a concept in corporate budgeting called "spend it or lose it" which essentially says if you don't spend all the money in your budget, your bosses will determine you don't need it and cut your budget to the size you spent. I don't know if that applies here, but probably AA saw that he has X to spend, has already decided he's not going after big names, wonders what he's going to do with this money and figures, might as well give a good guy a decent pay cheque for two more years, because it's not going to have any bearing on anything.
Mike Green - Thursday, November 26 2009 @ 09:28 AM EST (#208777) #
It's generally a good idea for a new 32 year old GM to make sure that his first major league personnel move is not an objectively insane one. 

Everyone will make mistakes, but is it really that hard to make a simple pawn move to open the chess game?

John Northey - Thursday, November 26 2009 @ 09:31 AM EST (#208778) #
The frustration over McDonald is the fear this is the start of another set of Ash/JP signing which, on their own, are minor and seem secondary but in the end tie up a lot of the budget.  For example, if the Jays sign 5 guys to contracts for $1 million more than replacement level for replacement level work (guys like Millar, McDonald, almost any middle reliever, etc.) then that is $5 million less available to sign a higher level player.  The different between a guy who is good (at $5 mil) and very good (at $10) or between very good and all-star ($15) or all-star and HOF ($20). 

Basically 5 guys like McDonald do not make the same difference in a season as one significant upgrade to an everyday player.  Talent in ML baseball is the extreme end of a bell curve - namely talent at the top is rare but as you move down it becomes far more common and guys like McDonald sign ML minimum contracts with spring training invites, not 2 year guaranteed deals.  If AA does more of this then I fear we will see another decade of 500 ball followed by another new GM.
Jim - Thursday, November 26 2009 @ 09:31 AM EST (#208779) #
So they had to pay him NEXT year because they were afraid they weren't going to be able to spend their budget this season....  a decision they made BEFORE ANYTHING ELSE EVEN HAPPENED? 

John McDonald wouldn't consider a post playing career with the Jays unless they handed him 3 million dollars for his age 35 and 36 seasons? 

The second year on this deal makes it patently ridiculous.  The deal itself doesn't matter much since it's not enough money to make a difference and it's not like McDonald is going to be the reason they finish 4th.  It matters in the greater picture though when trying to figure out what type of GM AA is going to be.  This isn't exactly a ringing endorsement for the promotion.

FranklyScarlet - Thursday, November 26 2009 @ 09:41 AM EST (#208780) #
Will

Bastian's piece about this seemed to suggest that AA was getting close to SIGNING his full time guy

That's what I heard, and the name will be out there soon.

Jim - Thursday, November 26 2009 @ 09:54 AM EST (#208781) #
If it's someone they are signing at least we know not to be excited about it ahead of time.


rtcaino - Thursday, November 26 2009 @ 09:56 AM EST (#208782) #
Just listened to the JMac interview on the fan website.
For those that haven't heard it, he indicated that multiple teams were interested, gaining ml service time was a priority, and it was suggested that he is likely to be a back up.
Elijah - Thursday, November 26 2009 @ 10:15 AM EST (#208783) #
Tweet from Rosenthal: Alex Gonzalez signs one year deal with the Jays.




China fan - Thursday, November 26 2009 @ 10:16 AM EST (#208784) #
Judging by the absolute fury among Bauxites on the McDonald contract, the Jays fan base has gone very sour.   No tolerance for anything any more, and a swift tendency to see the worst in any move.  Maybe this cynicism is good:  it serves notice to the Jays ownership that they can't take the fans for granted.  The positive side of the cynicism is that it might serve as a warning that the fan base could begin to collapse soon, and it could put pressure on the owners to spend some more money.  Let's hope so.  With the Jays on the verge of trading the best pitcher in the game, the fans will have even less reason to get interested in this team in 2010.  The owners need to avoid the perception of salary-dumping and budget-cutting, or the attendance this year could be the worst in many years, which in turn could fuel a cycle of further budget cuts. 
rtcaino - Thursday, November 26 2009 @ 10:16 AM EST (#208785) #
Also, I did not interpret Bastian as suggesting that AA was close to signing a starter.
rtcaino - Thursday, November 26 2009 @ 10:21 AM EST (#208786) #
... Foot meet mouth.

I still didn't interpret such a suggestion from the piece I read. But c'est la vie.
Forkball - Thursday, November 26 2009 @ 10:26 AM EST (#208787) #
Spending money on Johnny Mac is bad if: (a) there are better options available; (b) it wastes money that could be spent elsewhere. I don't know whether either of these is true.

Me either.  But why lock up a backup infielder in his late 30s for 2011 prior to the 2010 season?  He never had a bat, and his glove is going to go at some point.  He's the type of player you take one year at a time so you're not paying for potential dead weight.  That's the main concern - that there will be better options in 2011.

When you're a team that is conceding that you won't be competitive in 2010, and probably not 2011, why is it a priority to fill a backup infielder spot for two years?  What would happen if they didn't sign him?  You have to scramble to find a utility infielder?  Who cares?  Isn't that why you have so many scouts now - to find the bench player that you don't need to commit $3MM to?

And it seems odd that MacDonald would want to re-sign with the Jays given that Cito is still managing and he pretty much tied him to the bench last year.  Which to me seems to indicate that no other team was approaching anywhere near $3MM.  And if they were good for MacDonald, but it doesn't mean the Jays need to sign him.
Matthew E - Thursday, November 26 2009 @ 10:35 AM EST (#208788) #

Alex Gonzalez signs one year deal with the Jays

That's actually a smart move, from an attendance point of view: they can attract a few extra female fans who confuse him with the boy-band Alex Gonzalez who was John-McDonald-as-a-regular for the Jays in the '90s.

Forkball - Thursday, November 26 2009 @ 10:40 AM EST (#208789) #
The owners need to avoid the perception of salary-dumping and budget-cutting, or the attendance this year could be the worst in many years, which in turn could fuel a cycle of further budget cuts.

No.  Placating the fan base is what gets you into trouble.  Ownership needs to be out of any of that.  And frankly, spending money on veteran players who aren't going to be on the next good Jays team isn't going to 'trick' people into thinking you have a competitive team.

You operate your team to put yourself in the best long term position, short term results be damned. And if you have a real plan, can communicate that plan, are honest about it, and follow it I think you're better off with the fans anyway.  It's not that hard to sell 'we've been terrible for a long time.  It's time to make a new plan.  It might not be ideal in the short term, but in the long run we'll be better off'.  Most people get that.  And if they don't they probably aren't a big revenue source for the team to start with.

In the long run, winning teams sell.  No one cares about a .500 or worse team that's never in contention - see the JP years where there were no pennant races.
lexomatic - Thursday, November 26 2009 @ 10:41 AM EST (#208790) #
i haven't checked for confirmation on gonzalez, but not happy if that's the case.
negative:
-the Jays offense isn't good enough for his bat, his bat is terrible except for a little power.
-his last 5 years he's played 450 games and averages about 110. i don't want mcdonald making 40+ starts
positive
-1 year only. very much a placeholder signing
-his defense should be ok: UZR/150 consistently decent,

he generally works out to be a 1.5 war player.. how much are they paying him? is this signing to counteract the EE factor?
red sox declined 6 million option... jays better not be paying that much.
dan gordon - Thursday, November 26 2009 @ 10:47 AM EST (#208791) #
Gonzalez will be 33 before the start of next season.  Career numbers: .247 BA, .294 OBP, .395 SLG, .689 OPS.  All Star in 1999, hit 23 HR's in 2004, missed 2008 with a knee injury.  Was terrible with the bat last year with the Reds, but then he did very well with the Red Sox in 148 AB's, hitting .284 with a .769 OPS.  Any views on his fielding from the folks who are up on the modern fielding stats?
PeterG - Thursday, November 26 2009 @ 11:13 AM EST (#208792) #
According to Bastian, Jays will pay Gonzalez 2.75 mil in 2010. There is a club option for 2011 at 2.5.
Christopher - Thursday, November 26 2009 @ 11:19 AM EST (#208793) #
I'm not entirely clear on how arbitration works.  What happens now if the Jays offer Scutaro arbitration and he (for some reason) accepts.  Are they able to trade him?
PeterG - Thursday, November 26 2009 @ 11:24 AM EST (#208794) #
There are reports that Scutaro is close to signing with Boston. They are due to receive a couple of extra picks and likely don't care about losing one as long as they get their man. With the Jays picking up two proven ss in 2 days(not bad imo) could it be that AA has an idea what is coming back for Doc and it does not include a ss.
China fan - Thursday, November 26 2009 @ 11:25 AM EST (#208795) #
One obvious question about the Gonzalez signing:  does this mean that the Jays will not offer arbitration to Scutaro and therefore will not get the two draft picks if he signs elsewhere?   I suppose the Jays now might be reluctant to offer arbitration to Scutaro because of the risk that they'll end up with too many shortstops.   If the Jays are going to lose two potential draft picks as an indirect result of signing Gonzalez, I'd have to question the move.   I had assumed that the Jays would not acquire their new SS until after they had offered arbitratrion to Scutaro.   Were they afraid that they would lose Gonzalez if they didn't sign him immediately?
China fan - Thursday, November 26 2009 @ 11:26 AM EST (#208796) #
(Or, see the above questions.)
CeeBee - Thursday, November 26 2009 @ 11:33 AM EST (#208797) #
I can live with McDonald and Gonzalez for up to 2 years, the 2 picks for Scutaro and if really lucky, a draft pick or 2 when the Jays lose Gonzalez. Hopefully by then the Jays have a ss ready to go that is either in the system now, drafted this year or aquired by trade.
FranklyScarlet - Thursday, November 26 2009 @ 11:44 AM EST (#208798) #
Scutaro is looking for a three-year deal...
Scutaro’s agent told the Herald yesterday that the Sox are atop his client’s list, though as a Type A free agent, signing him would cost the Red Sox compensation.


Jim - Thursday, November 26 2009 @ 11:46 AM EST (#208799) #
This is quite honestly insane.  They are going to pay 4.25 million dollars to Gonzalez and McDonald.  Gonzalez hit 255/299/397 with the Red Sox last year. 

Can someone please explain to me why they TWO aging, no hit, some glove shortstops?

rtcaino - Thursday, November 26 2009 @ 11:59 AM EST (#208800) #
Jim: while I entirely recognize it is underwhelming, I don't see significantly better options. I wouldn't expect us to compete this year regardless, nor do I think these moves will prohibit the jays from pursuing other possible improvements.
China fan - Thursday, November 26 2009 @ 12:03 PM EST (#208801) #

Not sure where Jim is getting his numbers.   According to Baseball Reference, Gonzalez hit .284/.316/.453 with the Red Sox last season. His OPS was .769.   Of course that was in just 44 games with the Sox, and his numbers were a lot worse when he played for Cincinnati in the early part of last season.   But as recently as 2007, he posted a .793 OPS with the Reds.  I guess it's a question of which Gonzalez shows up in 2010.  

lexomatic - Thursday, November 26 2009 @ 12:15 PM EST (#208802) #
if it's any consolation, the money seems to be right on, based on gonzalez's contributions last year (per fangraphs). so if he plays 125 games, with a positive (but not amazing) glove and puts up a slightly over 700 ops. then it's in the black. it's doable, but i don't think likely. i honestly expect something along the lines of 2006 in boston (which isn't good enough)
110 gp, 430 pa 255/299/397. warp 4 of .4 (he had his best year defensively that year according to fangraphs though so he was worth about 6.3 mil )

here's a review of the signing http://www.fangraphs.com/fantasy/index.php/going-gonzo-in-to-part-two

prospectus has him at slightly below average fielding... pmr in 2007 had him at upper middle of the pack at 98 something. i couldn't find other years.

i wish our ss prospects were more advanced. i mean best case is one of jackson or pastornicky gets a taste of AAA this year and then gets more experience to be ready for 2012. i think it's more likely that neither is ready though by then necessitating another 1 yr stopgap (or a different player altogether).
lexomatic - Thursday, November 26 2009 @ 12:17 PM EST (#208804) #
china fan, jim was using 2006's stats
85bluejay - Thursday, November 26 2009 @ 12:18 PM EST (#208805) #

From AA viewpoint, perhaps with EE &  Lind likely manning the corners (poor Defence), the jays want a plus defence up the middle to help their young pitching

The Jays are not going to be competing next yr. - so perhaps they want to build the confidence in the pitching staff - also what was the alternative?

The Jays probably prefer Jmac as a backup (than Mike McCoy) because Gonzalez is fragile. Not saying I agree but that is perhaps their thinking.

maybenextyear - Thursday, November 26 2009 @ 12:19 PM EST (#208806) #
Is it possible that the Red Sox already have an agreement in place with Scutaro and as part of a potential Halladay trade the Jays will agree to not offer Scutaro arbitration - thereby allowing the Red Sox to save their draft picks and rationalize providing a greater return to the Jays for Halladay?
Mike Green - Thursday, November 26 2009 @ 12:28 PM EST (#208809) #
The Gonzalez signing is entirely justifiable, but it makes the McDonald signing look even more stupid than before.  John McDonald is signed now as a utility infielder at $1.5 million for 2 years.  There are three problems:

1.  Scutaro is offered arb and accepts it.  Gonzalez then becomes an acceptable utility infielder and McDonald has no role at all.

2.  You've got two good glove right-handed middle infielder.  Why would you want a right-handed utility infielder with no bat and a decent glove.

3. McDonald is not worth any more than the major league minimum. 

ramone - Thursday, November 26 2009 @ 12:32 PM EST (#208810) #
Scutaro accepting arb is not a problem IMO.  A sign and trade could easily happen.
ayjackson - Thursday, November 26 2009 @ 01:08 PM EST (#208812) #
Scutaro accepting arb is not a concern.  It is more likely that JMac will win the MVP.
Alex Obal - Thursday, November 26 2009 @ 04:44 PM EST (#208827) #
Does anybody know where I can find a good, detailed list of all the international free agents who signed in 2009, and their bonuses?

TamRa - Thursday, November 26 2009 @ 06:12 PM EST (#208831) #
The other criticism is the money.  He's getting $1.5-million a season, which is less than he received for the previous two seasons.  Is it still too much?  It depends on the team's overall payroll, which we don't know yet.  So let's wait and see the total payroll.

IMO AA doesn't have a fixed payroll ceiling. In fact, he pretty much just said as much on the radio. I get the impression that he can spend what he sees fit to spend because his superiors believe in giving him a free hand.

In that context, McDonald making only one million (roughly) over the minimum makes no difference whatever the Jays final total ends up being. One million is a number that a major league team might not bother to bend over and pick up if it were lying in the street (or so it seems)

My objection to McDonald is the guaranteed second year, at pretty much any price. If nothing else there's the potential of injury. If that second year was a team option. I'd be fine with it.


metafour - Thursday, November 26 2009 @ 06:26 PM EST (#208834) #
Is it possible that the Red Sox already have an agreement in place with Scutaro and as part of a potential Halladay trade the Jays will agree to not offer Scutaro arbitration - thereby allowing the Red Sox to save their draft picks and rationalize providing a greater return to the Jays for Halladay? Are you serious? What protection do we have from the Red Sox signing Scutaro and then saying "meh, we dont want Halladay anymore"? How about Scutaro getting some last-second deal from another team that Boston isn't willing to match? Sorry, but that theory is ridiculous.
Mike Green - Thursday, November 26 2009 @ 07:24 PM EST (#208838) #
Alex, I am not sure if a detailed list of all 2009 international signings exists.  Peter Gammons had an article (which you probably have seen) that refers to "MLB Club Files"  (whatever that is) as a source. 
Alex Obal - Thursday, November 26 2009 @ 07:41 PM EST (#208840) #
Thanks Mike. "MLB Club Files" returns nothing as a google search.

I started looking up Baseball America's 2009 top 25 (yeah okay it's BA but it's something). The bonuses for their top ten are:

1. Miguel Sano, SS - $3.15M, Twins
2. Wagner Mateo, CF - no contract, voided due to failed physical
3. Gary Sanchez, C - $3.0M, Yankees
4. Guillermo Pimentel, CF - $2.0M, Mariners
5. Jose Vinicio, SS - $1.95M, Red Sox
6. Luis Sardinas, SS - $1.2M, Rangers
7. Cheslor Cuthbert, 3B - $1.35M, Royals
8. Juan Urbina, LHP - $1.25M, Mets
9. Daniel Sanchez, RHP - unsigned?
10. Jose Pena, RHP - $400K, Brewers

If you figure you'd be saving $2.2M by using some AAAA placeholder(s) instead of McDonald, and assume that Anthopoulos isn't just blowing smoke about improving the Jays' player development staff, and assume further that international bonuses won't go up too too drastically this year (say more than 30%) ... I can think of a few ways I'd rather use the McDonald money.
Jim - Thursday, November 26 2009 @ 09:37 PM EST (#208849) #
Not sure where Jim is getting his numbers.  

I was getting his 2009 numbers from 2006.  That's what happens when you try to find stats in a blind rage. 

It's reassuring to know that his numbers in 2009 were actually worse then 2006.  A 46 OPS+ in the NL.  Where do I spend my 2.75 million?!!?!!?!?!?!
Jim - Thursday, November 26 2009 @ 09:39 PM EST (#208850) #
I get the impression that he can spend what he sees fit to spend because his superiors believe in giving him a free hand.

Then he should have just signed Holliday and Bay.  Why waste your time wasting 4 million when you can waste 40 million.
maybenextyear - Friday, November 27 2009 @ 10:24 AM EST (#208861) #

when are Type A free agents able to sign with a new team and when do teams have to make the arbitration decision for their free agents?

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