Batter's Box Interactive Magazine Batter's Box Interactive Magazine Batter's Box Interactive Magazine
Baltimore makes its second trip to the Dome this year to celebrate Memorial Day, an exclusively American holiday. Go MLB schedulers. Despite having handled the Orioles in years past, Toronto is a a dismal 1-5 against their feathered brethren. The Jays sit 5 games back of the O's in the division despite an identical run differential, but will try to make up ground against the Orioles, who are scuffling for the first time this season, having dropped 5 of 7 themselves. Who will win the battle of the birds? Find out, on today's Advance Scout.


Monday: Tommy Hunter vs. Drew Hutchison

This is the third time Hunter will be toeing the rubber against the hometown nine this season, having gone six innings in each of his previous two starts, allowing 4 and 1 earned runs. The only times this season that Hunter has allowed fewer than 4 runs in a start have been against the Twins, As, Royals, and Jays, so take that for what it's worth. As mentioned previously, Hunter is basically a slightly below average starter with no real standout skill. His control historically has been good but hardly great; he's posted a 5/5 K/BB ratio in his 12 innings against Toronto. Hunter doesn't throw especially hard, though he did top out at about 93 last year, the best mark of his career. After struggling to break 90 earlier in the year Hunter's been running his fastball up to 92/93, though he generally works about 2 MPH slower than that. Hunter also relies heavily on a pitch around 87 that I've seen classified as both a slider and a cutter, though I think it's closer to the later than the former. He also mixes in the occasional curve and even more occasional change (he threw 9 curveballs and 3 change ups last start, per PitchF/X). The curveball has graded out strongly in the past, though it's been knocked around a bit this year; the cutter/slider is the real money pitch though, relatively speaking. Careerwise Hunter's been decent against the current Jays: Bautista 4/22, JPA1/12, EE 3/12, Yunel 7/17, KJ 4/11, Lawrie 4/13, Thames 6/18. Johnson and Escobar have both homered twice, though as of 1:30 PM EST there is no word as to either of their availabilities for tonight's game.

Tuesday: Jake Arrieta vs. Ricky Romero

The Orioles have had five starters make 47 of their 48 starts, with only Dana Eveland interloping. The Jays have missed Wei-Yin Chen all three times now, but get their first crack at Jake Arrieta, probably the Os third best starter. Arrieta is another one of those heralded Orioles pitching prospects that basically has done nothing in his major league career, although there are signs he's starting to turn it around. The hallmark of his 2012 season so far has been its inconsistency. He was actually the O's opening day starter, and threw seven shutout innings against the Twins. Since then he's either been great or lit up, with more the former than the later (and he's had some good results against good teams, throwing 8 shutout against the Yankees recently). He is however coming off a poor outing against Boston, allowing 4 runs in 5.2 innings with a 2/3 K/BB ratio. Like each of the other two Orioles starters this series, Hammel throws a fastball/slider/curve/change, though he throws his curve more than the other two. His fastball averages 93.5 MPH, his slider and change both come in at 87, and his curve in the high 70s. His change is not great, but he's having more success with his curve this year. His fastball is basically a placeholder. Yunel Escobar is 6/12 lifetime, while Rajai Davis and Jose Bautista are 1 and 0 for 8, respectively.

Wednesday: Jason Hammel vs. Brandon Morrow

Jason Hammel has also squared off twice against the Jays this season and been even better than Hunter, also going 12 while allowing only 2 runs with a 10/2 K/BB ratio. Hammel has in fact been quite excellent all season, winning 6 of 9 starts and posting a sub-3 ERA with strong peripherals. Hammel has been impressive before, striking out around 7 batters per 9 innings with a K/BB ratio greater than 3/1 in both 2009 and 2010, with only some poor strand and babip numbers (and Coors) keeping him from the recognition he probably deserved. 2011 was a different story though as he fell off a cliff, walking more than 50% more batters while striking out a correspondingly fewer ratio. He's rebounded with a vengeance so far, basically doubling the percentage of batters he strikes out (12.7% to 24%) while lowering his walk rate (9.2% to 7.7%). He's also getting, by far, the highest groundout rate in his career, with 57% of his outs in play coming on the ground; his career best mark before this year was 46.9%. Making the whole situation even more impressive is that Hammel has been battling recurring knee trouble throughout the season, which so far marks easily the best of his career. I think it's easy to be cynical in cases such as these, but Hammel's underlying fundamental numbers are so much better that I think much of the improvement is for real. He's throwing harder than he ever has in his career, working at 93-94 with the fastball, and really wiping hitters out with a 1-2 fastball-slider punch, augmented by the occasional change and curve. He's inducing less contact, and getting the highest swinging strike percentage of his career. All of a sudden the Jeremy Guthrie trade looks much better. Career-wise the two middle infielders who faced him in the NL have had success; everyone else has barely faced him and hasn't been very good.

Lineup

Xavier Avery LF
JJ Hardy SS
Nick Markakis RF
Adam Jones CF
Matt Wieters C
Chris Davis 1B
Mark Reynolds/Wilson Betemit 3B
Nick Johnson DH
Robert Andino 2B

Lots of injuries, and thus shuffling. Regular DH/3B Mark Reynolds has actually been activated during the course of writing this Advance Scout; Wilson Betemit was getting starts at third, with Nick Johnson taking over DH duties. I'd guess some sort of time share gets worked out... Nolan Reimold and Endy Chavez are both MIA thanks to injuries, so Xavier Avery, who I have literally never heard of before, is handling left field and leadoff duties. He posted a .310 wOBA in a full AA season last year, but started off strong before going 1/13 against the Royals this weekend. Expect him to drop in the order against Ricky Romero... Don't expect Adam Jones to drop in the lineup. He's absolutely killing the ball, to the tune of .308/.349/.595, all while playing centre field. His fielding numbers are all over the place - he's rated quite poorly by UZR the last two years, but is killing it this year, while DRS has and still is down on him, though not extremely so. He recently signed a 6/$85 million deal, buying out one arb year. Jones has been a 2.5-3.0 win player the last couple of years, a mark he's equaled so far this year (albeit thanks to the fluctuation in defensive numbers). He's never hit remotely close to this well over a full season, so I think there are some reasons for skepticism, but on the plus side he was born in 1985 and $85 million really isn't worth what it used to be...The Matt Wieters revolution hasn't quite taken over yet, but he's posting strong walk and isolated power numbers. His problem this year has been a .246 BABIP. He is popping up more, and hitting slightly fewer line drives, but if that average can stabilize (he's hitting .232, 30 points below his career average) watch out... The Orioles drew some 28,000 fans on Friday night, with a Camden record 11,000 walk ups, which has to be good for the health of the franchise. It was a long weekend, though to be fair they were playing the Royals... A couple of Orioles are free agents this offseason, and MLBTR will keep you up to date.

Song to Advance Scout By: Well, no more Radiohead... Let's go in the opposite direction. Hey, Justin Turner uses it as his walkup music, and if Obal was going to blow it off  for the Hives during the Mets series someone had to come through...

Infirmary:
Brian Roberts (2B) is a possible return in June, he has a concussion. Meanwhile Nolan Reimold (LF) and Endy Chavez (CF) are both on the 15-day DL, with a herniated disk and a strained oblique. Zach Britton (SP) is making rehab starts, as are Taylor Teagarden (C) and Matt Lidstrom (RP). Japanese signee Tsuyoshi Wada (SP) has undergone Tommy John surgery and is out for the year.

Chart: All data from Fangraphs.

Advance Scout: Orioles, May 28-30 | 247 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
uglyone - Monday, May 28 2012 @ 02:22 PM EDT (#257159) #
someone just tweeted that Reynolds is off the DL today, replacing Pomeranz on the roster.
Anders - Monday, May 28 2012 @ 02:26 PM EDT (#257160) #
someone just tweeted that Reynolds is off the DL today, replacing Pomeranz on the roster.

Yeah, I saw that literally right after I posted it, and the Advance Scout has been updated to reflect these breaking developments.

SHAZAAM.
jgadfly - Monday, May 28 2012 @ 02:29 PM EDT (#257161) #
Beck down ... Laffey up as per ...      http://toronto.bluejays.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20120528&content_id=32364360&vkey=news_tor&c_id=tor
Mike Green - Monday, May 28 2012 @ 02:33 PM EDT (#257162) #
Those HR/FB numbers are all pretty impressive, and with the heat and humidity in the big smoke, there's a good chance that they (the numbers) won't be falling to earth just yet.

Alternative song to scout by (Chad Beck edition): I just came back to say goodbye. 

Alex Obal - Monday, May 28 2012 @ 02:34 PM EDT (#257163) #
It took Xavier Avery about 0.4 seconds to become my favorite name in baseball.

I want to see how these guys respond to their first serious losing streak. Hopefully, that question arises this week...
uglyone - Monday, May 28 2012 @ 02:36 PM EDT (#257164) #
sorry Anders, but you've been outtwittered this time!
uglyone - Monday, May 28 2012 @ 02:43 PM EDT (#257165) #
my meaningless take on the Orioles:

1) Offense

The offense is legit, though so far it has hit as well as it possibly could, IMO. The surprise year from Davis has balanced out the down year from Reynolds, so no real difference from expectations there. Everyone else has been close to expectations other than the massive surge from Adam Jones. Thing is, this might not be a fluke. Jones might be legit, so while I think the O's offense is due to decline it might not be by a huge amount.

2) Starting Pitching

Hammel and Chen have been legitimately good, and are legitimate upgrades. They're pretty legit I think. Arrieta/Matusz/Hunter have been typicalle mediocre/bad though not awful, and that's also to expectations. So their SP is ok, and should continue similar to what they've done so far.

3) Bullpen

This might be the most overachieving segment of any team in baseball. What the O's collection of castoffs and misfits in the bullpen have done so far is unbelievable.

Johnson: 0.84era
Lindstrom: 1.29era
Strop: 1.40era
O'Day: 1.78era
Ayala: 1.85era
Patton: 3.97era
Gregg: 4.50era
* Pomeranz: 3.00era
* Eveland: 3.52era

Even if these were a collection of elite relievers, those are highly unsustainable numbers. And this is certainly not a group of elite relievers. Those numbers should tumble down, and tumble hard, going forward.
Gerry - Monday, May 28 2012 @ 02:50 PM EDT (#257166) #

Reimold was killing the Jays when they met earlier this season.  Selfishly, it is good he is on the DL.

Romero has battled his command for three starts now.  He says he knows what's wrong, if he can't start fixing it by tomorrow, maybe he doesn't know what's wrong.

tstaddon - Monday, May 28 2012 @ 02:59 PM EDT (#257167) #
Have to assume that Beck was sent down instead of Chavez because Jesse's out of options... Can anyone confirm/deny?
John Northey - Monday, May 28 2012 @ 03:09 PM EDT (#257168) #
Baltimore right now has a 106 OPS+ and 116 ERA+ despite 3 of their 5 starters having ERA+'s in the low 80's. Last year they had a 100 OPS+ and 84 ERA+.

I think given that it is a safe bet their offense could be for real but their pitching is not even close to their real level. The key for the Jays is to get to the starters hard and fast, hopefully drain the pen day one so they can be in good shape afterwards.
uglyone - Monday, May 28 2012 @ 03:20 PM EDT (#257169) #
It's an interesting time of year, right on the cusp of all the numbers and standings to start meaning something. Much like this upcoming week vs. BOS and BAL is pretty huge to us to see whether we may be legit or not, BAL themselves are embarking on a rather significant 9gm roadie thru TOR, TB, and BOS which could be a big factor in whether they keep surprising or fall quickly off the pace.

Like us, the Orioles come in to this key stretch on a bit of a skid - they're 2-5 in their last 7, and have lost 2 consecutive series for the first time all season - a tough one against the surging Red Sox, and then a far more discouraging one against the lowly Royals.

Could be an early season turning point for either team, or both.
Mick Doherty - Monday, May 28 2012 @ 03:20 PM EDT (#257170) #

who I have literally never heard of before

This is now my favorite line of refreshing honesty in the history of Batter's Box. Kudos to the Advance Scout! Now if he his nine home runs in the series, we will have someone to blame!

Chuck - Monday, May 28 2012 @ 03:33 PM EDT (#257171) #

3) Bullpen ... This might be the most overachieving segment of any team in baseball.

Check out the Pirates bullpen. It is not quite up to the Orioles' standard of overperformance (with 5 sub-2 ERAs), but they do have 4 guys at 2.00 or better. And check out Jason Grilli who's decided to be more Eric Gagne than Gagne ever was (16.5 K/9).

The Pirates are almost at .500 while scoring just under 3 runs per game. How's that for a parlour trick? The next two thirds of the season could be very ugly once their bullpen suffers the presumed same fate that lies in waiting for Baltimore's.

Krylian19 - Monday, May 28 2012 @ 04:54 PM EDT (#257173) #
@BenBadler: The Blue Jays have NOT released Osman Gutierrez. Just a misprint on the http://t.co/Kwfih6LY site. Should pitch in the DSL.
Mike Green - Monday, May 28 2012 @ 05:37 PM EDT (#257174) #
Johnson is back in the lineup tonight, with Vizquel at short. 
92-93 - Monday, May 28 2012 @ 06:59 PM EDT (#257176) #
As far as I can tell Jesse Chavez has only had one option burned, in 2011.

I really don't understand this decision to play with an 8 man bullpen when you have 2 hurting middle infielders. The 6 relievers not named Chavez should all be good to go today, and if they really couldn't wait a day to call up Laffey why not substitute Chavez for McCoy?
uglyone - Monday, May 28 2012 @ 07:40 PM EDT (#257177) #
I don't think the 6 relievers are good to go at all.

Our 'pen is still extremely short, I think.
Mike Green - Monday, May 28 2012 @ 08:04 PM EDT (#257178) #
Hutchison's calling card in the minors was pinpoint control of his fastball.  Leo Durocher would probably figure that his problem was nerves and slip him a finger of brandy, but that was 60 years ago.  New measures are obviously required.
scottt - Monday, May 28 2012 @ 08:22 PM EDT (#257179) #
Chavez might have stayed in case they need a starter.

Both visiting teams have several dangerous left bats.
uglyone - Monday, May 28 2012 @ 08:45 PM EDT (#257180) #
Hutch is touching 95mph (with excellent movement), and just threw the best slider I've ever seen from him to get Avery to end the 5th. His "stuff" might just be ok after all.
uglyone - Monday, May 28 2012 @ 08:58 PM EDT (#257181) #
And now he's spotting 95mph on the outside corner, and going up the ladder with high 95mph cheese to get Jones swinging to end the 6th....on his 95th pitch of the night.

sweet.
92-93 - Monday, May 28 2012 @ 09:00 PM EDT (#257182) #
Why wouldn't the other 6 RP be good to go? None of them pitched yesterday, and only Frasor had thrown 2 days in a row before that, the 2nd time a grand total of 5 pitches.

Hutchison's slider seems pretty slurvy, breaking down more than laterally. His slider to lefties may be a curve.
uglyone - Monday, May 28 2012 @ 09:41 PM EDT (#257183) #
My gut tells me most of them should get more rest right now, but let me count them up:

last 3gms: SUN - SAT - FRI

C.Janssen: 0pc - 30pc - 0pc
D.Oliver: 0pc - 37pc - 0pc
J.Frasor: 0pc - 5pc - 31pc
L.Perez: 0pc - 18pc - 0pc
C.Villy: 0pc - 0pc - 66pc
F.Cordero: 0pc - 15pc - 0pc
J.Chavez: 72pc - 0pc - 0pc

The only guys I'd feel totally comfortable pitching again tonight are Perez and Cordero. Every other guy there I'd want to give at least one more day, if not 2.

92-93 - Monday, May 28 2012 @ 09:46 PM EDT (#257184) #
That's absurd. If a guy throws 30 pitches and didn't pitch the night before he should be ready to go the next day. He doesn't need a day off, and CERTAINLY doesn't need 2 let alone 3 of them.

And if you are so protective over your bullpen arms and won't bring them back the next night, quit getting only one inning from them. I don't understand why Farrell felt the need to remove Perez and use Cordero in this game. Instead of "tiring" them both out for tomorrow night, burn one and give the rest of the pen the night off.
92-93 - Monday, May 28 2012 @ 09:49 PM EDT (#257185) #
And now Casey Janssen is getting warm in a 5 run game because a save opportunity might be around the corner. SMH.
uglyone - Monday, May 28 2012 @ 09:51 PM EDT (#257186) #
I should have added in the prior game:

last 3gms: SUN - SAT - FRI - THU

C.Janssen: 0pc - 30pc - 0pc - 30pc
D.Oliver: 0pc - 37pc - 0pc - 36pc
J.Frasor: 0pc - 5pc - 31pc - 9pc
L.Perez: 0pc - 18pc - 0pc - 9pc
C.Villy: 0pc - 0pc - 66pc - 0pc
F.Cordero: 0pc - 15pc - 0pc - 20pc
J.Chavez: 72pc - 0pc - 0pc - 0pc

I'd absolutely not want to pitch anyone other than Cordero or Perez tonight.
92-93 - Monday, May 28 2012 @ 09:54 PM EDT (#257187) #
The Blue Jays were off on Thursday.
uglyone - Monday, May 28 2012 @ 10:01 PM EDT (#257188) #
heh. good point.
Spifficus - Monday, May 28 2012 @ 11:07 PM EDT (#257189) #

As far as I can tell Jesse Chavez has only had one option burned, in 2011.

Chavez should have burned all his options. His first 5 years (high school draftee) were 2002 (drafted and signed but did not play... it counts) to 2006. That would make '07, '08 and '11 option years.

Spifficus - Monday, May 28 2012 @ 11:16 PM EDT (#257190) #

A couple other things need to be mentioned on the weekend reliever usage. First, we're not factoring in how many times these relievers were up and down warming in the bullpen. I didn't get to see the games, so I don't have an idea if this was an issue, but it is something that is definitely factored in. Second, crossing multiple innings (such as Oliver did on Saturday) is probably also a consideration, since they get loose once or twice in the bullpen, come in, cool down a bit between innings, warm back up, etc.

Given all that and the distinct possibility that Hutchinson could get blown out (if one of his off-innings spirals out of control), I can see why they wanted another arm that could soak up innings as opposed to put them back to where they were on Friday.

TamRa - Monday, May 28 2012 @ 11:56 PM EDT (#257191) #
Prediction:

if Drabek still has command issues on 6/2 and Cecil has another good start on 531, the two will swap places and Cecil will start for the Jays on 6/6.

No check that - Beat reporters say that the Jays plan to maneuver to minimize the occurrence of 6 days rest, so Drabek may not get another start before demotion after Hutch showed well tonight.

5/29 - Romero
5/30 - Morrow
5/31 - xx
6/1 - Alvarez
6/2 - Hutchison
6/3 - Romero
6/4 - xx
6/5 - Morrow
6/6 - Cecil (5 days rest)
6/7 - Alvarez
6/8 - Hutchsion
6/9 - Romero
6/10 - Morrow
6/11 - Cecil
6/12 - Alvarez
6/13 - Hutchison

Sobering fact: 23 of the Jays next 26 games are against teams .500 or better.

92-93 - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 12:15 AM EDT (#257192) #
"That would make '07, '08 and '11 option years."

Only if you assume he was added to the 40 to protect him from the Rule 5 draft. I can't find that to be the case.
Spifficus - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 06:27 AM EDT (#257195) #
I was just doing a year count, true. Earliest contract purchase I can find for him was Aug '08, and it doesn't look like he was optioned that year. Funny thing is, I also didn't think to double-check his signing date out of the draft. 2002 was a simpler time, when 'last minute' meant before the next draft; He didn't end up signing until 2003. I don't think that ended up having an impact on when he would have needed to be protected for the Rule 5 draft since he was then 19 when he signed, which knocks a year off the pre-protection period.
John Northey - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 09:42 AM EDT (#257197) #
Drabek probably should go down now and get the work in at AAA or AA.

His first 5 starts...
2.40 ERA 6 IP per start, 15 BB 26 SO in 30 IP 4 HR
His next 5 starts...
7.11 ERA 5 IP per start, 22 BB 16 SO in 25 1/3 IP 5 HR

Now, remove that nightmare in Texas and the 4 starts are...
4.43 ERA 5 1/2 IP per start, 19 BB 15 SO in 22 1/3 IP 3 HR

His wildness has gone crazy and a low BABIP (266 over the last 5 starts) is all that saved him. His lowest walk total over those 5 starts was 3 against Texas but he never K'd more than 5 in any of those 5 starts. That is a major, major concern.

Drabek is one of those pitchers like Randy Johnson was way back when... if you can get him to harness his talent and stop walking 4-5 a game he can be an ace. If he doesn't though then he will be no more than another lost arm.
Mick Doherty - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 10:08 AM EDT (#257198) #
John, that's a good comparison except that Drabek doesn't throw  a lefty fastball nine hundred miles an hour. Seriously, if Johnson had continued the way he was around 1989, he'd still have had 15 years ahead of him. Didn't Steve Dalkowski throw until he was about 40?
uglyone - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 10:22 AM EDT (#257203) #
Just want to reiterate what a brilliant performance that was from 21 year old Hutch last night. He looked phenomenal, and it couldn't have come at a better time. I have to admit that while I liked him, at no point did I ever expect him to look that dominant this year. His peripherals already suggested that he was more than just our 5th starter so far, but this performance likely solidifies that he's jumped ahead of Drabek now.

As for Drabek, I wouldn't be in any rush to send him down, especially not based on an outing in Arlington. I definitely don't have any more confidence in Cecil or Chavez than I do in Drabek.
uglyone - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 10:26 AM EDT (#257204) #
"Sobering fact: 23 of the Jays next 26 games are against teams .500 or better."

well, 36 of the Jays' first 49gms have been against teams .500 or better, so it's not much of a change, really.
bpoz - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 10:31 AM EDT (#257207) #
Thanks for the scouting report Uglyone. I only listen to part of the games because I work nights. Hutch threw very hard as you mentioned, hitting 95 often.
Reading the report on the game, he mentioned his release point was basically perfect, he aired it out with control not being as much of a priority. He said that his last game disappointed him and he was looking to redeem himself this start.

So we are looking for consistency from this 21 year old. He has proven that he can throw very hard and had the reputation in the minors of good control. It has been stated, I believe that his non FB pitches are not fully developed yet.

I like everything about him, stuff, confidence & competitiveness.




Ryan Day - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 10:36 AM EDT (#257208) #
Well, there's a middle ground between Drabek becoming Randy Johnson and a "lost arm." Like AJ Burnett, perhaps, who never managed to put it all together, but was on the whole a pretty solid pitcher. Drabek's stuff is good enough that he could probably be a successful pitcher if he could limit his walks to 4.5/9.
neurolaw - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 10:37 AM EDT (#257209) #
I agree Uglyone, Hutch pitched like a man yesterday. I watched the highlights last night and his "stuff" looked really good undoubtedly the best I have seen out of him.

Question though - is that 95 a one off thing or is it permanent? If so we are looking at an entirely different pitcher.

bpoz - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 10:52 AM EDT (#257211) #
I love hearing about Hutch. He is someone that I had high hopes for because he did not struggle at any of his minor league stops.

When did others think he should have been called up? IMO he was rushed due to MCGowan & Cecil not being ready. I thought 11-15 AA starts just to be safe assuming that he would be very good there. He could have been demoted recently because his performance has been a bit iffy but close to good enough IMO.
Mike Green - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 11:04 AM EDT (#257212) #
Hutchison formerly sat at about 91, but he's only 21 and the possibility of adding a couple of clicks on the heater with mechanical adjustments is there.
neurolaw - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 11:09 AM EDT (#257213) #
And it looks like Eric Thames has been optioned to Vegas as per Jays official twitter feed. Mike McCoy has been recalled to the show.
China fan - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 11:10 AM EDT (#257214) #
Eric Thames has been demoted, Mike McCoy has been recalled. Presumably Davis will get the starting job in LF, while McCoy becomes the super-sub for infield and outfield.

It does show that Farrell and Anthopoulos were completely right when they said that Thames didn't have a guaranteed job for the season -- he'd be competing all year, even after winning the job at the end of the spring. Even with Snider injured, Thames still had to compete for a starting job, and he lost to Davis.
ayjackson - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 11:15 AM EDT (#257216) #

Eric Thames has been demoted, Mike McCoy has been recalled.

Well that must be sobering.

Mike Green - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 11:18 AM EDT (#257217) #
I don't really like this move.  If the club had a viable option, then it would make sense to me.  Rajai Davis as your starting left-fielder against RHP is not where you want to be.  I know that Thames has not hit well this year, but he's actually hit the ball better the past week with a lot of bad luck (like Rasmus had earlier in the year) and his major league career record against RHP is a lot better than Davis'.  It is true that Davis is a considerably better fielder than Thames, and so the overall loss is likely to be small. 
Kasi - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 11:18 AM EDT (#257218) #
One thing I did notice on Saturday (was sitting over the left field wall there in Ranger's Ballpark) was that Thames was definitely flirting with the ballgirl he was playing catch with pregame and before innings. I mean he is a young guy and all, but it might speak a bit to lack of focus.
neurolaw - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 11:21 AM EDT (#257219) #
This move also shows AA's philosophy on player development.

They have an incredibly exciting 21 year old outfielder who is having a scorching May and this was a ripe opportunity to bring him up. It would get the fans excited, but instead he resisted it because Gose needs more development.

So what I am trying to get at is that while its easy to say say that Hutch was rushed and it was a panic move, moves like this make me think that AA seems to have a fairly good handle on which players need more development and which ones are ready to contribute to the major league team.
Gerry - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 11:30 AM EDT (#257220) #

So when the Jays return to 7 relievers who comes up?  Gomes cannot return for ten days unless someone goes on the DL.  The Jays are down to three outfielders plus McCoy.  Could EE get a shot in the outfield or will Moises Sierra get the call? 

I think the McCoy move was a reaction to Kelly Johnson running the bases last night.  McCoy was pulled from the Vegas game in the seventh inning which was during or right after the Jays game.  AA might have seen KJ running the bases and said that looks like trouble waiting to happen.  Now if KJ is sore today, and if Yunel is still injured, the Jays have two middle infielders in McCoy and Vizquel.  My guess is that McCoy stays up until Gomes can return in a week.

 

ayjackson - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 11:35 AM EDT (#257221) #
If you let KJ DH, you could put EE in LF.  He'd be better than Thames.
Mike Green - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 11:39 AM EDT (#257222) #
All right.  If it is Encarnacion to left-field, Johnson to DH and McCoy/Vizquel/Escobar manning the middle infield for a week, I get it. I must say though that if the concern is Johnson's hammy, he's still going to have run the bases, and you'd probably be better off DLing him. 
China fan - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 11:43 AM EDT (#257223) #
McCoy is clearly a temporary call-up for just a few games, due to the fragile health of Johnson and Escobar. But Thames will need to stay down in Las Vegas for a while, so the question is who becomes the back-up OF (or even the starting LF) when McCoy is sent back down. I don't think EE is the answer -- he's still had virtually no experience at LF, aside from a game or two in spring training. Gerry might be right when he mentions Sierra. There's also Francisco, who should be off the DL soon -- although he's not a great option. Don't count out Gose -- he could still be an option at some point this season. And of course a lot will depend on Snider and how fast he recovers and starts hitting well again.
ayjackson - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 11:57 AM EDT (#257224) #

probably be better off DLing him

Yes.  Except that hammy had a home run and two doubles last night.

Mike Green - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 11:58 AM EDT (#257225) #
The only option of those that makes any sense is Gose.  I personally wouldn't do it, because I think he could use more time (in the same way that I felt that Drabek and Hutchison needed more time). 

It's one thing to add a bullpen arm due to unexpected overuse.  It is another to be flying a bit on the seat of one's pants with an outfield move.  This move has that feel. 

Mike Green - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 12:01 PM EDT (#257226) #
Yes.  Except that hammy had a home run and two doubles last night.

It won't continue.  Tommy Hunter is not a test for Johnson.  Arrieta is, and if Johnson's hammy is squealing, he'll probably enter one of his down phases.
Dewey - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 12:04 PM EDT (#257227) #
Poor Snider, my old crush(er).  He’s snakebit, that kid.  This is his time, and it’s frittering away. 
Gerry - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 12:15 PM EDT (#257229) #
I can see why they needed McCoy.  I am surprised they didn't send down a reliever after yesterday when just three relievers pitched.  It doesn't display much confidence in Romero and Morrow, your #1 and #2 pitchers.  With the off day Thursday a move could come as soon as tonight if Romero gives them seven solid innings.
China fan - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 12:16 PM EDT (#257230) #
I don't think the Jays are "flying by the seat of their pants" on the Thames decision. I think they've been thinking about this and assessing it carefully, and they've decided that they want Thames to spend a few weeks or months in Las Vegas -- similar to the Lind and Snider decisions earlier. The only odd thing is the McCoy call-up, but that's clearly an emergency injury move. So the Jays must have a plan for the OF to replace Thames. They've actually got plenty of options, although none of them are ideal (Davis or Gose or Francisco or Snider or Sierra....). But one of those options has almost certainly been decided already. They've had plenty of time to develop a plan to replace Thames, and I'm sure it's been discussed and worked out.
92-93 - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 12:19 PM EDT (#257231) #
I do not like how AA has been managing the 25 man roster lately one bit. As bad as Thames is, he's still the team's best option vs. RHP in LF, for now.
ComebyDeanChance - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 12:21 PM EDT (#257232) #
Anthopoulos has stated that Snider's minor league career lacked a full year at any level. They have to make a decision on him coming out of spring training next year, and I think they want him to have a full year in AAA. I suspect they want him to be able to learn to adjust to pitchers who are adjusting to him, instead of having to learn that for the first time at the major league level, which hasn't worked out well.

I think the best thing for Snider is to leave him where he is when he recovers. Given that he has to make the team next year, he'll have the inside track at spring training. Bringing him up this year and watching a reprise of 2011 would be far worse for him than playing Thames for the year.
Magpie - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 12:23 PM EDT (#257233) #
It would get the fans excited

That tiny portion of the fanbase that's actually heard of Anthony Gose.
ayjackson - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 12:43 PM EDT (#257234) #

team's best option vs. RHP in LF

THames has been scuffling against RHP all season and is completely lost right now.  At the very least, we can improve defense with this move without compromising the offence.

John Northey - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 01:23 PM EDT (#257236) #
Ugh has he ever...
Thames vs RHP: 233/271/367 - 638
Davis vs RHP: 227/227/409 - 636

OK - that is just wrong that Davis provides more power vs RHP than Thames, even if it is over just 22 PA for Davis.
uglyone - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 01:25 PM EDT (#257237) #
I think this move has more to do with Thames himself than the team.

People seem to treat Thames as a vet because he's not super young, but in fact he's had the least pro experience of any of our near-MLB ready prospects. And really, this is the first extended slump of his career, and he looks entirely lost at the plate and his confidence looks totally shot.

I think they're more worried about trying to get Thames back on track and not ruining any upside he might have than they are about the small difference in performance vs. RHP that he might offer over Rajai right now.

uglyone - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 01:26 PM EDT (#257238) #
I also think that Gose's chances of being called up soon just went up dramatically.
John Northey - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 01:39 PM EDT (#257242) #
Gose is an interesting one...
His OPS by season from age 17 to today...
652-676-724-763-791
His OBP by season...
293-323-332-349-373

Those are very encouraging numbers - every year his OPS and OBP has increased even though he was moving up the ladder. Full seasons at each level, rookie to A to A+ to AA to AAA (so far). I'd still lean to leaving him down there though as a 791 OPS is not really that good in Vegas. However, his May (thus far) is 368/443/547 - 990 OPS which is very good even at Vegas. Give him another month to consolidate those stats, show that his May wasn't more of a fluke than his April (216/298/284 - 583).
neurolaw - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 02:17 PM EDT (#257246) #
This move has been a long time coming. His defense has got worse, his hitting is a lot worse and he seems to lack confidence. There was no way of letting him ride this out. The writing was on the wall and AA and company have been planning this for a little while.

I can see why this move seems like a panic move, it’s not. Rajai at this point would a better job in LF than Thames and AA is not going to sacrifice player development i.e. Gose or Snider and nor should he. If there is one thing that AA has shown quite a bit throughout his tenure as a GM is patience with regards to player development. In terms of all his high ceiling talent i.e. Gose, D’Arnaud, Lawrie he has taken his time to let them develop and assigning areas for improvement to their game each year. He is also doing the same thing for Snider this year. I think he believes that rushing players to big leagues to fill holes when they are not ready for a promotion will lead to situations similar to Snider and in turn hinder their development. Now I can see the argument that can be made that he rushed Alvarez and Hutch but seeing how painstakingly patient he is with other high ceiling talent, I truly believe that he believed that they were readyish for the big leagues.

2012 in AA’s mind has always been a developmental year both for the minor league talent as well as the young players in the majors. D’Arnaud, Snider, Gose, and Hech will be major league regulars next year which also means another year of development. Despite whatever narrative has been played out amongst the fans about how close this team was to a contender, AA has never viewed it that way. His mantra has always been to collect and develop (key words) high ceiling talent to form its core and hope that core eventually turns into a perennial contender. In 2013 barring any trades our line-up will consist of Lawrie, Gose, D’Arnaud, Snider, Rasmus, and Hech. That is a lot of talent in one line-up – A LOT and fits with his mantra.
robertdudek - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 02:18 PM EDT (#257247) #
Anthopoulos has stated that Snider's minor league career lacked a full year at any level. They have to make a decision on him coming out of spring training next year, and I think they want him to have a full year in AAA. I suspect they want him to be able to learn to adjust to pitchers who are adjusting to him, instead of having to learn that for the first time at the major league level, which hasn't worked out well.

The bolded part is factually inaccurate (2007-Lansing; not that AA hasn't stated it).

As for the rest of it  - he's spent enough time in AAA over the past few years that the veteran AAA pitchers are quite familiar with him and he with them. Top pitching prospects rarely spend more than a half season at AAA (or skip it altogether) so how exactly does staying in AAA help Snider adjust, given that the pitchers he faces in April vis-a-vis August are largely a different bunch.

robertdudek - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 02:24 PM EDT (#257248) #
I don't really like this move.  If the club had a viable option, then it would make sense to me.  Rajai Davis as your starting left-fielder against RHP is not where you want to be.

Not to mention that the club has only real three outfielders on the roster (I don't count McCoy).

robertdudek - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 02:31 PM EDT (#257250) #
There is no way a middle infield of McCoy+Vizquel is better than Hecchevaria+McCoy/Vizquel. We need to win games.

To answer the "development crowd" in advance: playing Adeiny in the majors for a week while Yunel and Kelly heal ought to be a BOOST for development. Adeiny would get a taste of the majors, interact with Omar and Butter, and then he can go back down to resume his work at AAA.

The idea that a temporary promotion is going to hurt ANY AAA player is beyond ludicrous.

The same logic can be used to give GOSE a look-see.

Bottom line is that our offense and defense just took a huge hit.



robertdudek - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 02:34 PM EDT (#257251) #
It would get the fans excited

That tiny portion of the fanbase that's actually heard of Anthony Gose.

Don't you think that would change in a heartbeat once Jamie and Gregg start talking about him, and once Anthony starts running the bases?

neurolaw - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 02:36 PM EDT (#257252) #
But Robert AA throughout his tenure has never really done that. He has never brought a player that he believes could be a key piece up for a look see. When he has brought them up he has brought up with the intention of keeping them up here. I agree that bringing up one of the Triple A hitters for a look see would be a good idea but that has not been how he has done it.
dan gordon - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 02:36 PM EDT (#257253) #

I think sending Thames down was overdue.  What are the things an outfielder can do to help your team win - hit HR's, hit for average, draw walks, steal bases, field his position well, throw the ball well.  Thames wasn't doing any of those things.  Too bad Snider is hurt.  Any new reports on how long before he might be back from his latest injury? 

I think they go with Davis, and Francisco when he's off the DL.  Outside chance they try a bit of Gomes there if he's recalled.  Maybe they'll give Gomes a few starts in the OF in AAA to see if he looks halfway acceptable for a short period.  Once Snider is healthy for a week or two I think he's up as long as he's hitting OK.  I don't think they want to promote Gose yet, but if he keeps hitting like he has this month, and Snider doesn't hit well when he comes back, maybe by the end of June.

neurolaw - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 02:43 PM EDT (#257254) #
Personally, I have this theory that every time Farrell keeps running out poor hitters in key spots of the line-up, AA behaves in a passive aggressive manner and simply demotes them to Triple A.

I mean its parenting 101. If the kid keeps playing with an annoying toy then you simply take the toy away!
robertdudek - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 02:45 PM EDT (#257255) #
2012 in AA’s mind has always been a developmental year both for the minor league talent as well as the young players in the majors. D’Arnaud, Snider, Gose, and Hech will be major league regulars next year which also means another year of development. Despite whatever narrative has been played out amongst the fans about how close this team was to a contender, AA has never viewed it that way. His mantra has always been to collect and develop (key words) high ceiling talent to form its core and hope that core eventually turns into a perennial contender. In 2013 barring any trades our line-up will consist of Lawrie, Gose, D’Arnaud, Snider, Rasmus, and Hech. That is a lot of talent in one line-up – A LOT and fits with his mantra.

There seems to be an unstated assumption in all this, and that is that a player develops best in the minor leagues. I would take issue with this assumption. In fact I will state categorically that, in a typical case, only half of the development takes place in the minors - the other half can only take place in the major leagues against other major league players. This is why is is absurd to pretend that Travis Snider is in AAA for development reasons. Hogwash. Snider has nothing to learn against AAA caliber pitching - nothing.

As far as Hutch and Alvarez are concerned, you would have to be incredibly obtuse not to notice that they are still in need of much more development and that in their case AA has decided that it is to take place at the major league level. I totally agree with them being in the majors, as long as they are one of the five best starting pitchers the organisation has.

By the same token, if Yunel is injured and the best every day shortstop we have is named Adeiny, then Adeiny should be playing shortstop for the Toronto Blue Jays. AAA is for guys who are not (yet) good enough to have regular jobs with the big club.

If you want to tell me that McCoy is a better shortstop right now than Adeiny then fine - I disagree, but fine. But to tell me that Adeiny can't spend a week in the majors because he still has to "develop" is absurd, given that no young player reaches the majors as a finished product.

robertdudek - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 03:00 PM EDT (#257257) #
But Robert AA throughout his tenure has never really done that. He has never brought a player that he believes could be a key piece up for a look see. When he has brought them up he has brought up with the intention of keeping them up here. I agree that bringing up one of the Triple A hitters for a look see would be a good idea but that has not been how he has done it.

It's hard to know what his intentions are, unless you are secretly AA himself. I can only judge him by his actions.

I don't agree that he hasn't brought anyone up for a look see. Hutchison is a case in point. It was far from obvious that he was "ready" and if he had had a few bad starts he would have been farmed out. There was an opening in the rotation because Cecil failed to grab a starter's role and McGowan ended up hurt again. If either of those things hadn't happened, then Hutch would be in AA right now and a bunch of posters would be talking about how patient AA is in "developing Hutch".

Many young players have been brought up for a "look see" because of incumbent injury and have never gone back down to AAA because they were able to develop in the majors (we might have seen a recent example in Middlebrooks). As I said, there will be plenty of development left to do for Adeiny when he does eventually make the major leagues, so delaying because it may hurt his development is not a valid argument in my book. If he is really over-matched, we'll know after a week or so, and I don't believe that anyone can tell for certain in advance what will happen when the prospect reaches the majors.

Developing players is a lot like throwing spaghetti against a wall and seeing if it sticks. Since we have a number of injuries right now, this is a perfect time to bring in some youngsters and see if they can "stick to the wall".

Besides, Las Vegas, being an extreme playing environment,  is a TERRIBLE place to develop a prospect.

My sincerest hope is that discussion on this site doesn't devolve into the "well the GM did it so he must know what he's doing" meme. We've been down that road. When this site was founded, it developed a reputation for being critical of official pronouncements and explanations. It would be a shame to abandon that tradition.

China fan - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 03:01 PM EDT (#257258) #
No need to get outraged, Robert. It appears that Yunel is okay. He'll play tonight, or -- if not -- he'll be ready by tomorrow. So the Jays aren't saying that McCoy is a better SS than Hech. They're saying that McCoy is the better guy to sit on the bench, as a super-sub, to be available in case of injuries to SS or 2B or CF. It's possible that McCoy starts in the infield tonight, but it would be only for one game. And you don't call up Hech for a single game.
neurolaw - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 03:07 PM EDT (#257259) #
Of course Hutch and Alvarez need more development but he felt that those aspects of pitching could be developed at the Major league level. So far it has not been a complete disaster.

Now in terms of the hitters - clearly AA does not feel that they are ready and even though you might think that Hech would be the best option, AA does not. Its very similar to last year when everyone was clamoring for Lawrie to come up and AA waited till he was ready.

AA has shown a clear pattern here in development of players. He did this with Arencibia in 2010, Lawrie last year and now Gose, Hech and D'Arnaud. He does not bring up elite talent for a taste of the majors and only brings them when he feels they will stay here permanently. For the most part that has worked with each player that he has promoted.
China fan - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 03:07 PM EDT (#257260) #
".....My sincerest hope is that discussion on this site doesn't devolve into the "well the GM did it so he must know what he's doing" meme...."

That's an interesting point. I agree that we don't want a site that automatically defends the GM or the manager. Maybe someone should do a content analysis on this site (even for a day), coding the comments as "negative" or "positive" and adding them up. Personally I would guess that the comments are divided roughly 50-50 between the positive and the negative. Certainly I don't think there is currently any "meme" of pro-management comments. I think there's a vibrant and healthy debate on this site, with plenty of positive and negative comments on most main issues. So there's no need to fret that we're overwhelmingly pro-management. My impression anyway.
neurolaw - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 03:17 PM EDT (#257262) #
Well said China Fan. To be honest my comments are not intended to defend AA but I basing it on my own observations of what I have seen happen thus far.

Its also important to consider that while Hech has been really good at Triple A, has actually been a terrible hitter throughout his minor league career. Given that he has struggled so much and only recently really began to hit well. I think spending more time at AAA to consolidate these improvements would be a more worthwhile investment.
Anders - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 03:27 PM EDT (#257263) #
They're saying that McCoy is the better guy to sit on the bench, as a super-sub, to be available in case of injuries to SS or 2B or CF.

Or pitch: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ea-pB-Sztyk

Alex and I were behind home plate for this one. Other than the Bobby Higginson game and a comeback against the Rockies prominently involving Johnny Mac, it might be my favourite moment ever at a baseball game.

Anders - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 03:43 PM EDT (#257266) #
That's an interesting point. I agree that we don't want a site that automatically defends the GM or the manager. Maybe someone should do a content analysis on this site (even for a day), coding the comments as "negative" or "positive" and adding them up. Personally I would guess that the comments are divided roughly 50-50 between the positive and the negative. Certainly I don't think there is currently any "meme" of pro-management comments.

I think that on any decision where it's basically an either/or, as in, either we give Bautista this money or he hits free agency in a year, either we have Brandon League and Johermyn Chavez or we have Brandon Morrow, AA comes out pretty well ahead here, not least of which is because he has made decisions that are generally good, both at the time and in retrospect (this is illustrative, and we do not need to revisit all of them). I think that for any decision that requires more than two dimensions, and for which we don't have all the facts (ie most non-major roster decisions, where it's not just do we want Mike McCoy vs. Eric Thames, but how does this affect Thames' development, the team's current predicament, long term predicament, should we have brought up Gose instead, etc.), we basically split into a bunch of different opinions, not all supportive of the GM, because there are more opinions to have, as opposed to the first type of decision, where it's basically yes or no. Subjectively, AA has been extremely good at the first type of decision, and basically neutral at the second type ( where it's also difficult to objectively measure success/failure). I think ultimately the only thing one can really judge about a lot of roster decisions is whether the logic is internally consistent, which has usually been the case with the Jays. That, of course, doesn't stop it from being fun to argue about.

uglyone - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 03:44 PM EDT (#257267) #
help me out here as I'm trying to sort this roster stuff out. correct me if i'm wrong....


Today is May 29.

Francisco was put on the 15-day DL on May 25, though that could be retro to May 20 which means the earliest he can come off is June 5th, in about a week.

Gomes was sent down on May 27, which I believe means the earliest he can come back up is June 7.

Lind has cleared the 10 day mark already so can be called back up at any time.

Gose/D'Arnaud/Hech can also be called back at any time.

Guerrero is likely a couple of weeks away at least.

Most likely, with a decent start from Ricky tonight, the bullpen will be rested enough to drop Laffey tommorrow (May 30) and call someone else up - and realistically they'll have to make some call ups good enough to last them the entire week until Francisco or Gomes can come back.

So McCoy likely stays until then, leaving one spot open.

They could just call up Lind, which might be the likely choice.

But given that we only have 3 true OF on the roster, Gose might actually get the call (the fact that he can platoon L/R with Davis is attractive too), but then again with Escobar's injury we might need defensive cover there as well which would have to be Hech.

So I guess Lind, Gose, or Hech is going to be called up in the next day or two when Laffey is sent down.

And maybe 2 of them if they send McCoy back down.
robertdudek - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 04:07 PM EDT (#257270) #
Now in terms of the hitters - clearly AA does not feel that they are ready and even though you might think that Hech would be the best option, AA does not. Its very similar to last year when everyone was clamoring for Lawrie to come up and AA waited till he was ready.

You are assuming that AA knew Lawrie was in fact ready when he was called up. My position is that this can't be known, only guessed at. In reality the late promotion of Lawrie had much more to do with service time, but for some reason baseball men are not allowed to talk about that.

You sound like you are towing the company line. Or at the very least presenting yourself as AA's mind-reader.

uglyone - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 04:08 PM EDT (#257271) #
Escobar is in fact in the lineup tonight.

That rules out Hech completely.

I'm starting to believe Gose is going to get called up in the next couple of days, though it wouldn't surprise me to see them just call up Lind instead.
Mike Green - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 04:08 PM EDT (#257272) #
It would be kind of fun to have a "what will be the next roster move" poll with move (a bunch of options plus other) and date (in the comments section).
China fan - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 04:15 PM EDT (#257273) #
In fact, both Escobar and KJ are in the starting lineup tonight. So when the Jays called up McCoy, they were looking for someone to sit on the bench. Given a choice of benching McCoy or benching Hech, I know which one I'd rather see on a bench.
Ryan Day - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 04:28 PM EDT (#257274) #
My sincerest hope is that discussion on this site doesn't devolve into the "well the GM did it so he must know what he's doing" meme.

Taking the other extreme isn't particularly helpful, either. If everything really is as straightforward and simple as you say, the Jays must be pretty stupid not to see things the same way. Do you really believe that none of the scouts or coaches in the organization contribute anything that you couldn't figure out just by watching games and looking at stats?

The Jays may, in fact, be wrong about their players' development, but you don't need to confer divine infallibility upon them to consider the possibility they know something you don't, or to allow for a different interpretation of mutually agreed upon facts.
uglyone - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 04:29 PM EDT (#257275) #
now that I think about it, I can see McDade being a call-up option as well.
China fan - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 04:36 PM EDT (#257279) #
Although I have a tendency to sympathize with most of the decisions by Farrell and Anthopoulos (perhaps because they have a lot of inside information that we don't have), let me say that I truly appreciate the sharp criticism from some people on this site. It cuts through the official propaganda and allows a more balanced discussion of whether a specific move was right or wrong. The critics provide a perspective that we all need -- even if we disagree. They force us to reconsider whether a personnel move was the best one, and -- by reconsidering -- we better understand the risks and disadvantages of each move. Thanks, guys.
92-93 - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 04:40 PM EDT (#257281) #

My sincerest hope is that discussion on this site doesn't devolve into the "well the GM did it so he must know what he's doing" meme.

Then please hang around here more often, because that's exactly what the majority of posters seem to think.

John Northey - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 04:51 PM EDT (#257283) #
Right now AA has earned a fair amount of 'well, he knows what he is doing' vs 'what an idiot'.

From trading Wells for useful stuff, when no one thought it was possible to trade Wells if you ate 50% of his salary, to getting Escobar, Johnson, Morrow and Rasmus for very little one has to think AA knows his stuff and is a heck of a salesman with an ear to the ground. He does have blind spots, from giving Lind his big contract (I think that was an AA deal) to other head scratchers like Ben Francisco, Juan Rivera, Corey Patterson being on the roster and Travis Snider's continuing up and down will he or won't he play stuff. Seems the outfield is a bit of a headache for him doesn't it?

Still, being able to trade for Lawrie, Morrow, Escobar, and Rasmus when none were thought to be available just a month or so earlier was quite impressive. The next year will decide a lot though - if the Jays are still fighting for 500 this year and next I suspect a lot of shine will come off quickly and the assumption that when in doubt AA knows what he is doing will vanish.
greenfrog - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 04:55 PM EDT (#257284) #
Not to completely reopen the grass/turf debate, but I wonder to what extent the injuries to Escobar and KJ are the result of the hard RC turf. It's one reason why I might be reluctant to give Johnson a big contract. Second baseman in his 30s + leg injury issues + RC turf + long-term contract doesn't sound like a winning combination to me.
robertdudek - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 04:56 PM EDT (#257285) #
Do you really believe that none of the scouts or coaches in the organization contribute anything that you couldn't figure out just by watching games and looking at stats? The Jays may, in fact, be wrong about their players' development, but you don't need to confer divine infallibility upon them to consider the possibility they know something you don't, or to allow for a different interpretation of mutually agreed upon facts.

Scouts and coaches add a lot, but some of the ideas they have have been handed down to them by previous generations of scouts and coaches, and some of those ideas are misguided. If you doubt this, visit mlb.tv and spend a few innings listening to each broadcast team. Almost every colour man is a former player and you will hear enough drivel spout from their mouths to know that Tabler and Martinez are not the exception, but instead the rule.

But I grant that most organisations make the right decisions most of the time. Decisions are only talked about if they are controversial enough that they COULD be wrong. Just as we only talk about the times umpires get it wrong, not the hundreds of times they get it right.

As well, I am not necessarily saying that the Jays are wrong about their developmental approach.

What I am saying is:

1) The reasons AA gives for doing something may not be the real ones
2) Certain posters seem ready to ascribe intentions to AA's actions without being in a position to know.

But look around major league baseball. Not every team develops its talent in the same way. There are different philosophies about how to do it, so just because AA seemingly does it a certain way doesn't automatically make it the best way.

Also there is this tendency to slot a given season into either a "contention" or "development" pigeon-hole. I am not saying that AA thinks this way, but it seems clear that some posters at this site do.

I take issue with that notion, as I do not think that contention and development are mutually exclusive. The only way they would contradict one another is if young players were playing regularly in the majors, while better players were on the bench or in the minors or already traded to other teams. That is not the case in Toronto at present. If anything, the reverse is the case: there are players in AAA that might be better than the players on the current roster.

This was the issue behind the Thames/Snider/Francisco situation in spring about which I spilled so much virtual ink. It turns out that Francisco languished on the bench and that the decision to give Adam Lind a key role coming out of the spring worked out poorly.

But at this moment, the Jays have one of the weakest benches in recent memory (Mathis, McCoy, Vizquel), two too many relief pitchers and only three real outfielders including one who should probably not be playing everyday against RHP.

While I agree that farming Thames is probably the right thing to do at this point in the season, It sure seems like a dumb idea to farm out Thames without bringing up a real outfielder at the same time.

I'm sure this situation is temporary, but there is no reason to have a roster such as we have today, ever.

For those towing the company line, please explain to me why this current roster is our best chance of winning today's game. 


92-93 - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 05:01 PM EDT (#257286) #

And really, this is (Thames') first extended slump of his career, and he looks entirely lost at the plate and his confidence looks totally shot.

It's weird for me that I'm now defending Thames, but I don't see this at all, and I feel like it's analysis being done based on a statsheet as opposed to actually watching what's going on. Last week people were calling for Rasmus' head too and I kept saying he looks fine, he looks fine. Thames has looked like the guy he is to me (okay hitter, medicore power, little discipline), and is still a better option vs. RHP than Davis, who simply cannot lay off breaking balls thrown half a foot off the plate. Feel free to lecture me as to why this demotion is the best thing for Thames' long term development.

uglyone - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 05:01 PM EDT (#257287) #
While i don't consider myself on either side, I don't think both sides are equal, either.

Assuming that "the GM knows what he's doing" isn't the greatest approach, but given that the vast majority of GMs are experienced professionals, that is actually a much better assumption than what the opposite side usually takes - i.e. "the GM is a moron and doesn't know what he's doing".

In general, I find that the "GM is a moron" attitude to be much harder to take on an internet message board than "the GM knows what he's doing" attitude is.

Not that either one of them is very constructive or useful, of course.
uglyone - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 05:04 PM EDT (#257288) #
I agree with you on Rasmus, 92-93 - he always looked good to me and was clearly unlucky, and was always going to come out of his slump.

But I can't agree with you on Thames. I can't remember the last time I saw him really square up a pitch, even if his great strength allowed him to make some solid contact on some mishits. I see him taking good pitches, swinging at bad pitches, and just not driving the ball at all like he should be.

92-93 - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 05:05 PM EDT (#257289) #
I haven't seen anyone around here suggest the "GM is a moron".
Dewey - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 05:07 PM EDT (#257290) #
Have no idea if you care, Robert; but the metaphor you are seeking is "toe the line" -- not "tow" it.



uglyone - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 05:08 PM EDT (#257291) #
"For those towing the company line, please explain to me why this current roster is our best chance of winning today's game."

v. RHP this year

Davis: .636ops, .272woba, 68wRC+
Thames: .638ops, .277woba, 71wRC+

Defense this year

Davis: +0.2uzr/150
Thames: -23.9uzr/150
uglyone - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 05:09 PM EDT (#257292) #
Funny, because I don't see anyone here claiming that the "GM can do no wrong".
robertdudek - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 05:10 PM EDT (#257293) #
Have no idea if you care, Robert; but the metaphor you are seeking is "toe the line" -- not "tow" it.

Noted. My bad!

92-93 - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 05:11 PM EDT (#257294) #

I can't remember the last time I saw him really square up a pitch

Seriously? Just last night, I believe in the 7th inning, he took a first pitch fastball from a LHP and drove it to the left-centre gap, a ball that could've been a double but Jones was playing him perfectly and has solid range.

uglyone - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 05:14 PM EDT (#257295) #
That looked like a fairly standard oppo field single to me (turned into an out by good positioning). Hardly a hard hit ball.

the more impressive one to me was a couple of games ago when he lines a low inside pitch to the track in right, and he did kind of smoke that one even though he missed it a bit.
robertdudek - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 05:15 PM EDT (#257296) #
v. RHP this year

Davis: .636ops, .272woba, 68wRC+

Thames: .638ops, .277woba, 71wRC+

Defense this year


Davis: +0.2uzr/150

Thames: -23.9uzr/150


Yes, but the world didn't begin this year. And what would be wrong with having Thames's bat off the bench instead of Aaron Laffey? And what happens if Rajai tweaks something and Kelly reinjures the hamstring during the game, and you need a pinch hitter or a pinch runner?

My point being that a well-constructed roster should be prepared for any number of things that may happen during the game.
uglyone - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 05:20 PM EDT (#257297) #
Well, they're worried that they've been taxing their relievers a bit too much the past week or two, and that none of them are really rested, so they feel the bullpen insurance is more important for this game (and the next few) than the bench insurance is. They have solid defensive replacements on the bench tonight, but you're right I guess that they don't have any pinch hitters available.

Not like any of the pinch hitters they could have up here for this game have shown that they're any better a bet to get a hit than the guys starting tonight are, of course.
92-93 - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 05:20 PM EDT (#257298) #
The Jays had an off day last Thursday, have another one this Thursday, and then another one on Monday. Carrying 8 relievers, 2 of them being Aaron Laffey & Jesse Chavez, is very poor roster management, as was going into Saturday's game with only 4 relievers you thought were fresh enough to be used.
robertdudek - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 05:22 PM EDT (#257300) #
Funny, because I don't see anyone here claiming that the "GM can do no wrong".

Well, no one is going to admit to holding such a view, but whenever there is a controversial move made by AA, there is a bunch of (seemingly the same) people twisting themselves into pretzels defending the move.
uglyone - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 05:24 PM EDT (#257302) #
personally, I don't think choosing Thames over Laffey for this game would make one bit of difference, and I think the danger of overtaxing our bullpen even more at this specific juncture is a bigger one than the potential need for a pinch-hitter tonight.
uglyone - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 05:25 PM EDT (#257303) #
well, nobody's going to admit that they hold the 'GM is a Moron" view either, will they?

they sure seem to imply it on a regular (even constant) basis, though.
robertdudek - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 05:25 PM EDT (#257304) #
Not like any of the pinch hitters they could have up here for this game have shown that they're any better a bet to get a hit than the guys starting tonight are, of course.

So either:

1) Jays don't have any good pinch hitters because there are none in the organisation

or

2) Jays don't have any good pinch hitters because they are in the minors or injured.


Surely in either case, this is the fault of the GM.
Matthew E - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 05:27 PM EDT (#257305) #
Well, no one is going to admit to holding such a view, but whenever there is a controversial move made by AA, there is a bunch of (seemingly the same) people twisting themselves into pretzels defending the move.

I hope I don't do that, but I will say about Anthopoulos that when he makes a move, you can almost always at minimum understand what it is he has in mind by it. This isn't true of all GMs. Not even Ricciardi, and I liked Ricciardi.
China fan - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 05:27 PM EDT (#257306) #
While there are people who often defend the decisions of Jays management, there are also people who love to attack every decision. There are people who nit-pick and who routinely use scathing words to vilify every decision. It probably all balances out. I'm not sure which side is more pretzel-like in its logic.
robertdudek - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 05:29 PM EDT (#257307) #
they sure seem to imply it on a regular (even constant) basis, though.

I've not seen it implied even once.
92-93 - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 05:29 PM EDT (#257308) #
You can't overtax a bullpen in a night. It happens when a manager consistently gets guys up and down too often over the course of a season. For instance, instead of burning one pitcher in Luis Perez last night, he tried desperately to keep him available for tonight and instead lowered the chances he could get the most effectiveness out of Cordero & Janssen tonight.

This notion that the bullpen is overworked at all is quite strange, frankly. There shouldn't be a reliever who can't go tonight. It's easy enough to shuffle between back end relievers that I don't see the need for the team to be proactive and carry 8 relievers.
Bid - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 05:30 PM EDT (#257309) #

Not your 'bad' at all, Robert, it's a metaphorical upgrade, particularly with reference to your earlier remark about "the GM did it so he must know what he's doing" meme. I love the idea of towing that company line around.

Mike Green - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 05:31 PM EDT (#257310) #
The world didn't begin this year.

No kidding.  And if you're going to play the small sample size game, Davis has been pretty bad himself  defensively in left-field, according to UZR's numbers.  For what it's worth, I prefer the DRS version of events.  Thames has been a little better this year than last, and Davis has been noticeably better than Thames (although he is not a great defensive outfielder).

The only occasions that I can think of which would justify McCoy's recall would be an injury to Vizquel, or a very short-term injury to Johnson or Escobar.  If you needed to do that, you would drop the 8th relief pitcher.  If you decided that Thames needed to go down, you'd call up an outfielder (presumably Gose).  

Matthew E - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 05:33 PM EDT (#257311) #
I honestly don't think it's necessary for a team to ever carry more than six relievers, and five should be the normal amount. Or four if you're doing the swingman thing.
92-93 - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 05:34 PM EDT (#257313) #
I can't believe I'm even suggesting this, but Fred Lewis vs. RHP would be an upgrade for the Jays in LF at this point.
Matthew E - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 05:36 PM EDT (#257314) #
Also, one thing I don't pretend to know anything about is whether such-and-such prospect is ready for the majors or not. How would I know? I ain't no scout. But if there's one Jays prospect who I think clearly needs as much development time as he can get, it's Gose. I don't want to see that melonfarmer in the major leagues for at least another year. Maybe more.
greenfrog - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 05:43 PM EDT (#257315) #
Given all the swooning over Hechavarria and Gose's recent stats, it might be a good time to add Eric Thames' latest data to the Las Vegas stat conversion calculator:

- Slash line (Vegas 2011): 352/423/610 (1033 OPS)

- Slash line (majors 2011/12 combined): 257/306/429 (735 OPS)
neurolaw - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 06:02 PM EDT (#257316) #
All right Robert lets ignore for a moment that I am "towing the company line", or that I am "AA's mind reader" and lets look at your opinion that Hech is the best option at short.

Every major scout or pundit worth their dime looked at Hech over the last 2 seasons and said his bat simply does not play enough to be a SS. He had 2 terrible seasons which were rewarded with promotions to Vegas. He then hit well in Vegas at the end of last season. He went to the AFL after Vegas and proceeded to stink it up again. He is back in Vegas and once again doing great. Despite his fantastic stats so far no major scouting pundit considers him to be a top prospect for his position.

So in my opinion here is what will happen if he got called up. When he gets up here, he will get owned by Major League pitching. And while he will add value defensively he will probably add little to no value offensively right now. So really is Hech that much better an option than McCoy?
uglyone - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 06:06 PM EDT (#257317) #
I think it's naive to think the bullpen hasn't been overtaxed recently. just in the last few games farrell has been forced to use guys he clearly didn't want to...janssen last night and frasor 3gms ago. and if he needs more than a couple of rp tonight, he'd again be forced to use guys he didn't want to if he didn't have laffey there. the good news is that it's a very shortterm thing...just another game or two with regular relief work instead of early sp exits or long extra inning games, and the bullpen is back on track.

the fact is we're short bats for a number of reasons....underperformance (thames, lind), injuries (francisco, snider), roster rules (gomes), or a hesitancy to rush some minor league guys (guerrero, gose, hech, d'arnaud).

It's a unique situation, and it's not as if a temporary 8 man pen is a crazy or even rare occurence.

the funny thing is despite the short bench, i'm actually the happiest i've been in a while with the lineup we're trotting out tonight. for the first time in a long while we have slots 1 thru 6 filled with guys who are actually hitting like capable - even good - MLB bats at the moment. the bottom of the order still isn't acceptable, but at least it's just the bottom for once, and it does provide very good speed at least... not to mention that this likely the best defensive unit we've started yet.
uglyone - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 06:12 PM EDT (#257318) #
Small point, neurolaw, hech dd stink it up for his first couple of weeks in the AFL, but he went on a tear after that and finished with a respextable .750ish ops overall there. he also ripped it up at both mlb and milb camps in spring training.
92-93 - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 06:17 PM EDT (#257319) #
"Every major scout or pundit worth their dime looked at Hech over the last 2 seasons and said his bat simply does not play enough to be a SS."

These same scouts said Brett Lawrie can't stick at 3B, and that Eric Thames is at best a 4th OF. People hear what they want to hear.
92-93 - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 06:23 PM EDT (#257320) #

just in the last few games farrell has been forced to use guys he clearly didn't want to...janssen last night and frasor 3gms ago.

There was no reason for either of those players to not be available, unless you erroneously think that once a pitcher throws 30 pitches his arm must receive 2 full days of rest.

and if he needs more than a couple of rp tonight, he'd again be forced to use guys he didn't want to if he didn't have laffey there.

Huh? Perez threw 15 pitches, Janssen 4, and Cordero 26 last night. All 3 of them were off the day before and aren't coming off heavy workloads in the slightest.

BlueJayWay - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 06:46 PM EDT (#257321) #
I agree with you on Rasmus, 92-93 - he always looked good to me and was clearly unlucky, and was always going to come out of his slump.

But I can't agree with you on Thames. I can't remember the last time I saw him really square up a pitch, even if his great strength allowed him to make some solid contact on some mishits. I see him taking good pitches, swinging at bad pitches, and just not driving the ball at all like he should be.


Ditto.  I've been saying all year Rasmus has swung the bat well, just had no luck.  Now all those line drives are finally falling in for hits.

Thames has not looked nearly as good.
Gerry - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 06:48 PM EDT (#257322) #
I disagree with the comment regarding scouts and Hechavarria.

Scouts have said that Hech will not be an above average hitter in the major leagues but if he delivers well above average defense, as is expected, then his bat will be good enough to stick around. There is a question as to whether his overall performance level will be good enough for the AL East but it would play in the NL West for example. The offensive bar for shortstops is not high.

Having said that his hitting performance this season has surprised many and it has improved the scouts opinion of his capabilities.
robertdudek - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 06:56 PM EDT (#257323) #
Gerry wins.
Gerry - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 07:01 PM EDT (#257324) #
Grgeor Chisholm has just tweeted that Hechavarria has to deal with a personal immigration issue and will miss the next two Las Vegas games. I assume that issue could have eliminated Hechavarria from being considered for a promotion.

More specifics may be revealed over the next few days.
scottt - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 07:14 PM EDT (#257325) #
Hutch had a good game, but that 3rd inning was scary. 3 walks and 1 hit but no run scored because someone thought this was the perfect time for a double steal. That 3rd inning could have changed the whole game, and taints the pitching performance somewhat.

I don't think Drabek has been significantly worse of late. He's had 3 bad games, all of them on the road, so if you include 2 of those bad games in any stretch it will look bad. I'm curious to see if he keeps his home dominance or not. Control is after all, mostly a mental issue.

Alvarez has given out 9 or 10 hits in his last 3 games, That could be a bad trend, or just a reflexion of his opposition, still I personally think it would be a good idea to send him down for a couple weeks, specifically to work on his secondary stuff.

Weird to go from 5 outfielders to 3. Seems like the bench is just to cover new injuries.

Gerry - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 07:52 PM EDT (#257326) #
According to Shi Davidi, Hechavarria's immigration issue, if resolved, will give him clearance to travel outside the US.
uglyone - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 07:55 PM EDT (#257327) #
"There was no reason for either of those players to not be available, unless you erroneously think that once a pitcher throws 30 pitches his arm must receive 2 full days of rest."

with all due respect, 92-93, you're the one determining your opinion of whether the bullpen has been taxed or not based on simplistic and formulaic secondhand information, not me.
Kasi - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 08:59 PM EDT (#257328) #
I disagree with you scott on who should get sent down. Learning a new pitch with Alvarez I don't think is something that can be done in season. He is what he is. However drabek has issues with his mental game and repeating his delivery. He should be the one sent down. Hutchinson I like the most for now since he controls himself, he can strike people out and he limits walks.
JB21 - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 09:05 PM EDT (#257329) #
Rangers signed Oswalt. Saweeeet.
scottt - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 09:27 PM EDT (#257330) #
At Rogers Centre, Drabek is 3-1 with an ERA of  1.75 and K/BB = 2.3

It would annoy me to have him sent down in an home stretch. Last time, he never recovered from the demotion.

I don't see any harm in having Alvarez throw a tons of sliders and changeup in a couple of minor games.

He might very need to learn a new pitch, but that's not going to happen this year.

Anyway, that's my minority opinion and it's not like it's going to happen because I say so.

scottt - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 09:42 PM EDT (#257331) #
The Yankees have picked up Igarashi off waivers.
Kasi - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 10:16 PM EDT (#257333) #
Well I think the last 2-3 innings here has shown quite well that the bullpen still needs some time to recover.
robertdudek - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 10:20 PM EDT (#257334) #
Well I think the last 2-3 innings here has shown quite well that the bullpen still needs some time to recover.

I think it shows that the bullpen is pretty bad.
Magpie - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 10:22 PM EDT (#257335) #
I honestly don't think it's necessary for a team to ever carry more than six relievers, and five should be the normal amount. Or four if you're doing the swingman thing.

I sympathize, but those days are gone, gone, gone. Unless you're willing to go much deeper into a game with your starter than most modern managers want to. The modern bullpen works 450-500 innings a year, often a fair bit more - and that's a job for a minimum of six pitchers. (Unless you don't mind your relievers arms blowing up in a year or two. Which I'm seriously willing to consider. There is no shortage of pitchers who can help you in that role.)
Kasi - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 10:26 PM EDT (#257336) #
I was at the game Saturday afternoon. Sure the bullpen has some guys who are getting mediocre like Frasor and Cordero. But I still think Jansen, Oliver, Perez and Villueneva are pretty good when not overworked.
92-93 - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 10:42 PM EDT (#257337) #
So the bullpen is overworked yet John Farrell has both Villanueva and Janssen warming up with a 4 run in the bottom of the 8th? Dumbfounding.
robertdudek - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 10:42 PM EDT (#257338) #
I was at the game Saturday afternoon. Sure the bullpen has some guys who are getting mediocre like Frasor and Cordero. But I still think Jansen, Oliver, Perez and Villueneva are pretty good when not overworked.

Show that they have been overworked. Show usage that is not typical for a major league reliever.

To the extent that guys are getting in too many games... this is a reflection of our manager's tendency to not allow relievers to go more than one inning.

Look at what happened to Showalter.: both his starters had short outings, but he was willing to give two different relievers the opportunity to eat innings. As a result, all his top relievers are rested for the next day.

By contrast, Perez did NOT come out for another inning yesterday after an effective appearance, Romero was NOT asked to go one more inning; Cordero and Janssen were used back to back days, while the other relievers sit and watch. If the bullpen is tired it is Farrell's fault.

It's really weird that the team that had far better starts enters the third game of the series with the much more used up bullpen (7 relief appearances in 5 innings - Janssen and Cordero likely ruled out for Wednesday).

I reiterate that the short and frequent stints is a strategic policy of the manager/GM.
92-93 - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 10:45 PM EDT (#257339) #
"Show usage that is not typical for a major league reliever."

Why bother? You'll just be told that you're determining the bullpen's usage "based on simplistic and formulaic secondhand information" by uglyone, who was the one who originally posted all their usage patterns trying to prove they are overworked. If John Farrell says they're tired, they're tired.
uglyone - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 11:08 PM EDT (#257340) #
Janssen looked pretty pooped to me.

hope Morrow has a good start tommorrow.

but how about that Rajai Davis, eh?
Kasi - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 11:17 PM EDT (#257341) #
The guy who is considered to be the best manager in baseball (Joe Maddon) is even more extreme than Farrel. He by far has the lowest number of innings per relief appearance. Magpie said it well, 7 man bullpens and specialists who come in for 1-2 batters are here to stay.

The reason the bullpen right now is tired is because in three straight games over the weekend, the starters logged a total of about 9 innings.
greenfrog - Tuesday, May 29 2012 @ 11:35 PM EDT (#257342) #
Right now Cleveland (-21 run differential) is 1.5 games ahead of the Jays (+23) in the wild card race. Sigh...
92-93 - Wednesday, May 30 2012 @ 12:02 AM EDT (#257343) #
Maddon can get away with his usage because he has a much better rotation and he doesn't hesitate at all to bring back a guy the next night, unlike Farrell. Just this past week Maddon used Peralta in 4 straight games, Rodney in 5, with one day off in the middle.
Matthew E - Wednesday, May 30 2012 @ 12:02 AM EDT (#257344) #
I sympathize, but those days are gone, gone, gone. Unless you're willing to go much deeper into a game with your starter than most modern managers want to. The modern bullpen works 450-500 innings a year, often a fair bit more - and that's a job for a minimum of six pitchers. (Unless you don't mind your relievers arms blowing up in a year or two. Which I'm seriously willing to consider. There is no shortage of pitchers who can help you in that role.)

I dunno... to me, "those days" are the 1980s, and I just went and looked at some numbers from a few '80s teams. Their relief innings were all right around 470. Maybe it was a fluke that I found those results, but I wasn't cheating. Anyway, they didn't have any seven-man bullpens back then.

I think teams would do better to leave their relievers in for multiple innings, pitch them less often where appropriate, and don't sweat the platoon advantage too much. And don't pick any ROOGYs or LOOGYs for your five relievers; get guys who have enough stamina to go two innings in one game and two more two days later, or four innings on Monday and one more on Thursday.
92-93 - Wednesday, May 30 2012 @ 12:04 AM EDT (#257345) #

And don't pick any ROOGYs or LOOGYs for your five relievers; get guys who have enough stamina to go two innings in one game and two more two days later, or four innings on Monday and one more on Thursday.

Guys like Luis Perez and Carlos Villanueva.

TamRa - Wednesday, May 30 2012 @ 01:09 AM EDT (#257346) #
off topic - I propose a perhaps counter-intuitive solution to 1B: Kevin Youkilis.

Rather than go into details here, I'll simply provide a link rather than burdening you with a big post to read or skip.

http://thesouthpawbaseball.blogspot.com/2012/05/about-first-base.html

In short, you have to believe he will return to form, and that you can employ a third team to get him since the Red Sox seem unlikely to boost a division rival.

And, of course, be willing to accept the guy as a Blue Jay
Magpie - Wednesday, May 30 2012 @ 01:15 AM EDT (#257347) #
Maybe it was a fluke that I found those results, but I wasn't cheating.

It wasn't a fluke at all - you're quite right that total relief innings haven't increased dramatically. They're slightly higher than they were in 1981, not quite as high as they were in 1991 and 2001 (I just checked the years ending in "1").

But what has increased dramatically is the number of pitchers being used to work those innings. Last year the average AL team brought in a reliever 436 times to work 467 IP. In 2001, it was 408 times (487 IP), in 1991 it was 341 times (475 IP), it 1981 it was just 234 times (425 IP; yeah, 1981 was a strike year, so I pro-rated the figures.)

There are probably all sorts of reasons for this. Certainly, almost every pitcher is more effective - often much more effective - in a short, concentrated dose. Used in this way, even quite marginal guys can actually help the team. But in order to use pitchers that way, you need more of them. And if you have that many relief pitchers... well, you don't really need long relievers or middle relievers anymore. If the starter has to come out in the fifth inning, you just use four guys to get you through the rest of the game, instead of having one pitcher throw three or four innings.

Also, I absolutely believe that relief pitchers who are asked to throw much more than 90 innings a season will generally break down within a couple of years (unless they're junkballers of some sort). I don't remember anyone else saying so, but certainly no MLB manager allows any of his relievers to work the number of innings relievers of yore were asked to handle. Everyone apparently assumes - I believe rightly - that you need to limit the number of innings these guys pitch.

In other words, the LaRussa-Maddon theory of bullpen management is taking over. I think Maddon has added the additional twist of regarding relief pitchers as essentially interchangeable and disposable - he doesn't mind using one four days in a row if he needs to because he's not all that worried about having to replace him. (He will never, never admit that, of course.)
TamRa - Wednesday, May 30 2012 @ 01:34 AM EDT (#257348) #
"Assuming that "the GM knows what he's doing" isn't the greatest approach, but given that the vast majority of GMs are experienced professionals, that is actually a much better assumption than what the opposite side usually takes - i.e. "the GM is a moron and doesn't know what he's doing". "

^This^


and also this:

"The Jays may, in fact, be wrong about their players' development, but you don't need to confer divine infallibility upon them to consider the possibility they know something you don't, or to allow for a different interpretation of mutually agreed upon facts."



I am SURE the GM can and will screw up (for a current example, see - Cordero, Francisco...though as another Fransisco proved last year, that can change)

I am SURE he will make moves I disagree with.

BUT when I am uncertain, or a bit confused, a decent respect for professional ability and access to the highest quality data compels me to, with great hesitation, judge a move "stupid" or to impugn the abilities of a man in that position absent a long train of obvious offenses against reason (e.g. - Bavasi, Bill)
---------------------------

That said:
I will agree that I don't see the thought process in calling up McCoy, most noteably in this - if you were this xlose to demoting Thames, why didn't you send him down instead of Gomes? However, with Snider hurt (how unlucky is THAT guy right now?) the potential to add an outfielder within the system is really poor.

Prediction: the Jays might very well add a marginal outfielder on a minor deal (ala Dewayne Wise last year) in the coming days. someone they can afford to lose when Gurrero arrives and/or Francisco is activated. Less likely but possible - they add an actual valuable piece that projects to at least platoon with Davis in LF
TamRa - Wednesday, May 30 2012 @ 02:03 AM EDT (#257349) #
"As for Drabek, I wouldn't be in any rush to send him down, especially not based on an outing in Arlington. I definitely don't have any more confidence in Cecil or Chavez than I do in Drabek."

To be clear - I was predicting, not advocating

" The Jays are down to three outfielders plus McCoy. Could EE get a shot in the outfield or will Moises Sierra get the call?"

Now that you mention it, it seems kind of obvious that EE would either get turns in LF or be the presumptive 4th OF until someone else arrives - and maybe after if "someone else" isn't a natural outfielder.

robertdudek - Wednesday, May 30 2012 @ 09:11 AM EDT (#257350) #
Magpie,

Just to be clear. Are you saying that the Maddon usage is superior to the Showalter usage?

Showalter's pen has been pretty good this year, and he has used long men when the starters have faltered. I think most everyone does, still. The Yankees have had David Phelps in that role.

The problem with the Farrell usage is that you have too many relievers sitting around doing nothing, and your key guys are getting overused. The team has both too many relievers and some relievers are getting burnt out. The worst of both worlds!

The thing is, if you have to use your whole bullpen in a given game, you can just farm out two of the marginal ones and call up fresh arms from AAA (and in fact the Jays have done this this season several times). That's what they are there for. You could have 6 active relievers, but an effective pen of 8 relievers if you consider the two waiting in AAA in case of need. What you DON'T need is 8 guys sitting in the pen, causing your bench to have only three guys.

Given that one has to be the second catcher, that leaves two players to cover all pinch hitting,  pinch running and seven defensive positions. Unless they are two very very versatile ballplayers you are going to run into huge tactical problems when you are playing a team with more weapons.

Whitey Herzog said that he didn't want any pitcher on his staff he would be afraid to use - advice that the Jays might consider.

Sometimes wisdom is lost from generation to generation. Sometimes the old-school way is the better way.



Ryan Day - Wednesday, May 30 2012 @ 09:12 AM EDT (#257351) #
I believe Edwin was having some back problems, which may not make the outfield a great idea right now.
whiterasta80 - Wednesday, May 30 2012 @ 09:39 AM EDT (#257352) #

I wonder if Farrell's background as pitching coach makes him prefer relief options over hitting/fielding options a little too much.

The thing is, as Robert pointed out (and I completely agree with) we should just be using our AAA team for bullpen arms more efficiently.  Your bottom 3 guys almost always have options left so simply shuffle them in and out as needed when our bullpen gets taxed (and rest assured with 3 very green starters our bullpen will get taxed this year). By doing this we really could open up options with pinch hitters, runners and extra fielders. 

The thing is that you don't want a guy to rot on the bench.  It would be awesome to have someone with Gose's speed or Hech's fielding ability on the bench, but we don't want to risk the future with them. If we were 100% committed to a pennant race (i.e. the Rays) things might be different. For the time being bringing up Jonathan Diaz (why McCoy??? seriously, he doesn't even field well!) and a low-upside burner (we might have to go outside the organization for that) could really help us in close and late situations even if it isn't our best organizational options.

bpoz - Wednesday, May 30 2012 @ 11:12 AM EDT (#257360) #
2 topics for possible discussion.

1) AA has been building the Jays since he started as GM. After 48 games both the 2011 & 2012 teams had identical 24-24 records.
So are these teams fairly equal. What would Pythogaras say? For me Bautista contributed more to the 2011 team in that time frame. That is just 1 observation.

2) When we are saying the GM is a moron, that word was OK because we did not name any GM.
I would like to substitute the words Questionable decision & Regrettable decision. This is just for conversation on some old & recent historical decisions.
Remember our Closer that was a former Nasty boy. He was claimed on waivers by someone.
How about Jaun Rivera traded to LAD and I believe we paid a lot of his salary and then resigned by LAD for approx $4mil. Maybe questionable but LAD are in 1st.

There are other examples like NYY, D Wise & others. Who really knows what the GM is thinking. When AA signed Wise & others, some opinions including mine was that these are place holders and AA does not expect to compete in 2011. I definitely do not think Cashman signed them for the same reason ie that he does not expect to compete in 2012. These are my opinions only and I cannot really say that is what AA & Cashman are thinking.
AWeb - Wednesday, May 30 2012 @ 11:48 AM EDT (#257365) #

It's not as simple as using the AAA bullpen to extend the MLB bullpen - the guys in AAA are playing just as many games, and especially given playing in Vegas, are also getting worked a lot. You can't simply move the bullpen/roster issue of having a few unusable guys a night down to AAA, and screw over that roster instead. Sometimes, like this week, usages and needs align so you can do it, but you can't do it all the time. I can see the AAA game, starting after a 15 inning game in Toronto  - "sorry team, three guys are being called up for tomorrow in Toronto, and two others were used heavily here last night, so tonight'spitchers are Laffey, Hoey, and the Woodward to close. McCoy's the long man."  Vegas is a baseball team, not just a place to stash people in stasis until needed.

 I think teams should be using the 7 man pen with a designated starter available for 2 innings in case of emergency. The lack of a true longman will rear it's head once in a while, but oh well. This has always happened. This happened in the 80's, the 90s, etc.

None of the bullpen issues are even apparent if the guys with the easiest workload (designated closer of the week) to define haven't blown so many late saves this year. Take a couple of implosions (lots to choose from), and everything seems fine. Sometimes, relievers get destroyed. Happens to starters too, except they get more innings to average out.

Magpie - Wednesday, May 30 2012 @ 11:51 AM EDT (#257367) #
Are you saying that the Maddon usage is superior to the Showalter usage?

No, I'm only saying that the drift towards more relievers each doing less work has been driven by the discovery that just about anyone can be effective in small doses along with the fact that relievers asked to work more than 90 IP generally aren't long for this world. Which is better? I don't think there's really an answer besides that great baseball standby "It all depends..."
92-93 - Wednesday, May 30 2012 @ 11:56 AM EDT (#257368) #
"You can't simply move the bullpen/roster issue of having a few unusable guys a night down to AAA, and screw over that roster instead."

Why not? Those games don't matter, and you don't care about keeping a good relationship with an affiliate you want to leave anyway. And most of the 51s pen are scrub starters anyway who can eat innings, guys you don't worry about when it comes to their arm's health - that's what org soldiers are for. It's a very different way of managing a bullpen in AAA than at the MLB level, where most of the guys can't handle more than an inning or two at a time.
uglyone - Wednesday, May 30 2012 @ 12:10 PM EDT (#257369) #
More serious answer to last night's bullpen usage than I gave last night - Farrell was clearly managing for the series win last night with a 4-run lead and his starter out, and IMO that was the right thing to do, even if it leaves the bullpen a little more vulnerable tonight.

But Ricky's solid 6 last night took care of most of the bullpen worries anyways. Another solid 6+ from Morrow tonight and the bullpen will be 100% back on track no question. Laffey was only up as insurance against another disastrous start or two, like we had a number of the previous week or two.

they might even make a move today, though with tommorrow's day off I think they might wait and try to get a better idea of which guy they want to call up to replace Laffey. It'll be an interesting call whichever way they go - they could go with any of Lind, Guerrero, Gose, Hech and it wouldn't surprise me.
John Northey - Wednesday, May 30 2012 @ 12:19 PM EDT (#257371) #
Actually this year the AAA games matter more than normal. Why? Because if I ran Rochester (for example) then if I saw the Jays screwing over Vegas this year I'd probably look to other teams to affiliate with, leaving the Jays stuck in Vegas for yet another 2 years.

This year the Jays need to show that they care about their minor league affiliates and that they'll bend over backwards to help them if they want to shift from Vegas to an IL team.
John Northey - Wednesday, May 30 2012 @ 12:27 PM EDT (#257372) #
I suspect no moves today but after todays game a few could happen. Who do they call up? Very hard to say. Vlad seems to be showing that he is almost ready, Lind has done well but if called up cannot be sent back down (he has the right to refuse soon, the Jays hit this with Luis Leal back in 1985 and Leal never got the call back to the majors) and I would be shocked if he hit within 100 points in each category as he has in AAA (375/458/650). Vlad is 5 for 10 with 2 HR in A+.

Right now I'd probably go with Vlad for DH, EE at 1B and cut back to a 12 man pitching staff. Also call up Gomes as soon as possible (useful backup) and send Cooper back down (333 is a nice average, but his OBP and Slg are also 333 which won't cut it at 1B). If after a month Vlad isn't showing it and Lind still is hitting a storm in AAA then call up Lind one last time and send Vlad onto the retirement train.
whiterasta80 - Wednesday, May 30 2012 @ 12:39 PM EDT (#257373) #

The idea that you can't use AAA to house roster members 26-28 without screwing over your affiliate is laughable.  Seriously, how often does a bullpen really get overtaxed? How often do we need to call up a MI for a single game? We are two months into the season and we're just doing this for the first time. This is a rare and temporary solution to a problem and it would not really be compounded by a switch to a 6 man pen.  In fact the switch likely benefits all involved because you save Farrell from putting his 12th best pitcher into a meaningful game "just to get him some work", which he is want to do. That pitcher could be down in Vegas getting regular work.

And while it is true that we can't be certain that the best option will be fresh when it comes time to call him up, I would argue that a reasonablly equivalent option will be. If Laffey wasn't fresh it could just as easily been someone else (Richmond, Beck, etc...). Similarly if Vegas is in danger of being short, you just move someone else up a rung, these are temporary solutions remember, not flaws in roster construction. 

Chuck - Wednesday, May 30 2012 @ 12:43 PM EDT (#257374) #

But Ricky's solid 6 last night took care of most of the bullpen worries anyways.

Nothing says solid 6 like an ERA of 6.00.

Gerry - Wednesday, May 30 2012 @ 12:47 PM EDT (#257375) #

So who is todays closer?   If we assume Janssen and Cordero are both out, and Frasor is questionable, who closes from Oliver, Villanueva, Perez, Laffey, or Chavez?   I assume it will be mix and match.

I think Farrell was going for the series win last night knowing the Jays face Hammel today. 

uglyone - Wednesday, May 30 2012 @ 12:54 PM EDT (#257377) #
"Lind has done well but if called up cannot be sent back down"

cool, thanks. I did not know that. Nice to know that they have an added reason not to call him up, to be honest.
Magpie - Wednesday, May 30 2012 @ 12:59 PM EDT (#257378) #
Those games don't matter

True, I suppose. But isn't it obscene? I think it's positively offensive.
John Northey - Wednesday, May 30 2012 @ 01:21 PM EDT (#257382) #
I think Lind was a week or so away from hitting the magic service point where he can refuse a minor league assignment and keep his contract. I know it was 5 years service at one time.

Checking Baseball-Reference I see Lind was at 4 years 85 days and a season officially has 172 days, so he needed 87 days on the roster to hit 5 years. Opening day was April 5th, his last game was May 16th so that is 42 days, putting him at 4 years 127 days roughly (maybe one or two more days). That leaves him roughly 45 days shy of the magic 5 year status. So the Jays when they call him up have (at most) a month and 1/2 to decide if he should stay or go before they are forced to keep him in the majors or risk him refusing to go back to AAA. More time than I expected. Also, once he hits that magical 5 year mark he can also demand a trade if he gets traded.

Details on the 5 year issue...
http://www.bizofbaseball.com/index.php?Itemid=75&id=662&option=com_content&task=view
Anders - Wednesday, May 30 2012 @ 03:24 PM EDT (#257386) #
Matthew, the flip side of the number of relievers debate is: how would you use the extra 2 position players on the roster? American League teams rarely pinch hit (Rangers lead the way at 42, Jays at 24), there's no double switch in the AL, and most teams don't use their bench in game, they use it as a chance to rest players every now and then.

The Jays rarely used their bench until the recent spate of injuries/roster moves: Jeff Mathis is just a backup catcher, Ben Francisco basically only DHed, Rajai Davis gave guys a rest every now and then and pinch ran, and Omar Vizquel was/is break glass in case of emergency. Most AL teams expect players 1-9 in their lineup to be able to hit, and teams platoon much less, so most bench usage seems to follow the: pinch hit for the catcher/shortstop/centre fielder, bring in defensive replacement the next inning. This may be sub-optimal overall, but given current usage patterns, I don't think its a slam dunk that two extra bench players playing once or twice a week are more valuable than the two extra relievers. On this current Jays team I don't think there's anyone who really merits being lifted for a pinch hitter (well, Vizquel, Mathis and Davis, but they are already backups), and only Eric Thames qualifies for a defensive caddy. You could platoon in LF and at 1B, I suppose.

Mike Green - Wednesday, May 30 2012 @ 03:24 PM EDT (#257387) #
I don't quite agree with Magpie's interpretation of the history of modern bullpen usage.  The expansion of bullpens was coincident not only with LaRussa's extreme efforts to obtain the platoon advantage, but also a rather unique era in baseball in which home runs, scoring and strikeouts were at very high levels.  We can call this era for lack of a better term, "the steroid era".  In this era, starting pitchers naturally were required to throw more pitches per inning and hence there was greater need for relief.  Bill James once used the phrase "natural selection of strategies", and if you accept the analogy, the expanded bullpens were well adapted to the times in the 90s and early 00s.

Times have changed quite significantly since the steroid era, but the adaptation seems to be occurring slowly in some regards (while it has not in other areas such as defensive shifting).  My theory is that the save rule has slowed down the adaptation, as the role definition suggested by closer/set-up man roles with the goal of maximization of number of saves, inclines teams to require additional bodies in the pen.

Which brings us to the Rays.  Why does probably the smartest organization in baseball use relievers the way they do?  My theory is that they are in an unusual situation because of their astuteness and their poverty.  They realize that they cannot survive without good starting pitching developed on their own or occasionally acquired in trade.  So, last year, when every one of their relief pitchers went under an inning per appearance, it was because the starters put up 1050 innings.  And the nice thing is that they are able to acquire pitchers like Rodney and Farnsworth for not much money.



Anders - Wednesday, May 30 2012 @ 03:32 PM EDT (#257388) #
Okay, on a much more serious note, apparently Drew Hutchison came out to "Call Me Maybe" on Monday, WHICH IS/WAS THE SONG OF THE ADVANCE SCOUT.

WHY DIDN'T ANYONE SAY ANYTHING, MY MIND IS LITERALLY BLOWN.

If this is true (he tweeted it), I retire. I can't top this. I've accomplished everything I've wanted to in life.

Matthew E - Wednesday, May 30 2012 @ 03:54 PM EDT (#257389) #
Matthew, the flip side of the number of relievers debate is: how would you use the extra 2 position players on the roster?

Depends on a) who I already had in the starting nine, and b) who I could get for the bench. With the Jays' current roster, I'd like to find another outfielder, one who could hit. I'd like some kind of serious pinch-hitter. Another backup infielder, maybe a Gomes type who can also be the third catcher. There are lots of ways of doing it. Anybody but Rick Honeycutt, is what I'm saying.
greenfrog - Wednesday, May 30 2012 @ 04:12 PM EDT (#257392) #
The streaking White Sox just beat TB 4-3. The Jays will be within 2 games of both TB and Baltimore if they win tonight.
whiterasta80 - Wednesday, May 30 2012 @ 04:22 PM EDT (#257393) #

My opinion is that there is more value to be had out of pinch hitting, pinch running, defensive substitutions, and platooning than there is in a 7th reliever. Certainly our team seems to disagree.

This of course is predicated on having the right Bench for this sort of thing. Using our own system and ignoring player development for a moment, my ideal Bench is Gomes, Davis, Vizquel, D'arnaud (platoon with JPA), and Thames (platooning with Vladdy).  This assumes Snider in left.

That bench has power from both sides of the plate, decent defensive substitutions, a guy who can steal a bag any time you need it, and another respectable base runner. Now if Colby Rasmus is set to face an ace lefty in the 7th inning of a tie game you can bring in Gomes. If JPA is sitting on first with one out, down one in the 8th you pinch run, and steal the base/hit and run to avoid the double play. If Vladdy started in left field from some unknown reason and you're up 2 in the 6th, you can bring in Davis as a defensive sub.  What do we do right now in all those situations?  Nothing, we leave the guy in. 

Conversely, if we are up 5 in the 6th inning and Drabek just went out.  What do we do right now?  We go to Aaron Laffey.  If we had a 6 man pen we'd go to a guy (who is not overworked) 2 places higher than him on the depth chart.

Anders - Wednesday, May 30 2012 @ 04:30 PM EDT (#257394) #
With the Jays' current roster, I'd like to find another outfielder, one who could hit. I'd like some kind of serious pinch-hitter. Another backup infielder, maybe a Gomes type who can also be the third catcher. There are lots of ways of doing it. Anybody but Rick Honeycutt, is what I'm saying.

Yeah, okay, but we started with five outfielders and never played the 5th one in the outfield. Francisco can actually hit too, at least certainly enough for a backup outfielder - if he was better he would start. Jose Bautista is never going to sit, and Eric Thames and Colby Rasmus are going to start against all right handers (until recent events). So I don't really see why this club would need a fifth outfielder. In the same vein, who does the serious pinch hitter pinch hit for? Yunel Escobar is probably the Jays worst hitting current starter (and he's actually been quite good historically), or Davis I guess if he starts in left, and is the team really going to acquire a better bat just to pinch hit for either of them (especially given that, ideally, Davis doesn't start)? Eric Thames has almost 1/3 of the team's pinch hitting appearances, in what I assume is him pinch hitting on his off-days. Omar Vizquel isn't very good, really, and he's the 4th infielder and he started 4 games in the almost two months before this recent spate of injuries. It seems your argument is mostly about wanting better versions of the current players, as opposed to any abiding need for more bench players. I think that the 7th reliever is probably more valuable to the Jays than the 5th bench player.

uglyone - Wednesday, May 30 2012 @ 05:00 PM EDT (#257395) #
So no SP are getting skipped, according to Farrell. Both Ricky and Morrow will be going on 6-7 days rest next time out.

The cynic in me says that they're saving Ricky from having to face his career nemeses the Red Sox next series (though he's pitched them well lately), though that would mean that Drabek's being offered as a sacrificial lamb.

Or maybe he just thinks they could all use a bit of a rest at the moment.
China fan - Wednesday, May 30 2012 @ 05:20 PM EDT (#257399) #
The Hechavarria situation has become even more confusing. According to a John Lott story today, Anthopoulos says there is no problem with Hech's citizenship, and he already has all the paperwork that he needs to go to Canada to play for the Jays. So there was no need to panic over alleged administrative screw-ups by the Jays or a failure to do the basic preparations needed for Hech's major-league career. He can play in Toronto, and has been able to do so since the end of spring training, Anthopoulos says.

Which raises the question: why did he take 2 games off at Las Vegas this week? Apparently it must have been due to another citizenship-related issue -- perhaps something needed for his full US citizenship, I'm guessing. But you don't need to be a US citizen in order to travel legally to Toronto, of course. So maybe he would travel to Toronto as a "landed resident" or whatever the US equivalent is.

The John Lott story on all this:
http://sports.nationalpost.com/2012/05/30/blue-jays-cuban-prospect-is-cleared-to-travel-to-canada-gm-says/
Mike Green - Wednesday, May 30 2012 @ 05:37 PM EDT (#257401) #
Canadian immigration law is complex enough, and I gather that American immigration law is that times two or three. Hechavarria might be on B-623 visa (all numbers have been changed to avoid confusion) which expired three days ago, and cannot be renewed until expiry or something strange like that. While the B-623 is being renewed, he is placed on a G-4726 visa which allows him to be in the US but not to work.  Anyways, it is much more fun to talk about d'Arnaud's best comp or Carly Rae Jepsen or the weather than whether a lawyer somewhere should have done something to make sure that Hechevarria stayed on that old B-623 for a little longer. 
92-93 - Wednesday, May 30 2012 @ 06:14 PM EDT (#257402) #
I miss having a bat like Matt Stairs on the bench.
scottt - Wednesday, May 30 2012 @ 06:36 PM EDT (#257403) #
Stairs quickly became a regular when the Big Hurt couldn't get it going.

I miss having a switch hitter on the team. Not that Zaun was anything special.
A switch hitter is a platoon that doesn't take any space on the bench.

KJ is getting at least 2 days of rest as vizquel is starting tonight.



scottt - Wednesday, May 30 2012 @ 07:00 PM EDT (#257406) #
The Blue Jays will be visiting the Streaking White Sox next Tuesday.



robertdudek - Wednesday, May 30 2012 @ 08:10 PM EDT (#257408) #
True, I suppose. But isn't it obscene? I think it's positively offensive.

The minor leagues have been slaves to the major leagues for 60+ years. I wish it weren't so, but I don't see a huge outcry against it.



robertdudek - Wednesday, May 30 2012 @ 08:13 PM EDT (#257409) #
I still think Adam Lind can be an effective Rick Leach type player. Just because he's become useless as an every day player doesn't mean he can't  have value if deployed properly.


bpoz - Wednesday, May 30 2012 @ 08:29 PM EDT (#257410) #
I heard Bob Elliott speaking on MacGowan's show last year. He said his sources say that M Sierra is the best player in NH. Even though d'Arnaud won MVP. I like that because Sierra is one of my favorites but S Fassano has never said that Sierra is his best player or close to it.

So who knows. Lets not forget slumps caused by nagging this & that.
robertdudek - Wednesday, May 30 2012 @ 08:36 PM EDT (#257411) #
This may be sub-optimal overall, but given current usage patterns, I don't think its a slam dunk that two extra bench players playing once or twice a week are more valuable than the two extra relievers.

The bolded is key. If you construct a roster with an eye to getting the right hitters up at the right time, and making sure everyone is properly rested (something that becomes much more important with the coming of hot weather) , a strong bench becomes a huge asset,

Some teams take advantage of pinch running opportunities more than others, and in a close game the right pinch runner can make a huge difference. But to do it right, you often need TWO bench players. For example, slow catcher gets on base, speed merchant pinch-runs, other catcher comes in for defense. For slow 1b or D.H, same thing applies. Scioscia has sometimes carried three catchers so as to make this move more stress free.

You can see how it impacts our team... with Rajai mainly a bench player - he could be deployed optimally for pinch running and defense. Now we've replaced Thames with Rajai (which is working out well so far), but we have not replaced Rajai the pinch runner or late inning defender.

It's also interesting that the best team in baseball, the Rangers, have a lot of flexibility with their position players: Gentry plays against lefties and comes in as a pinch runner/defensive CF in many other games with Hamilton shifting to left. Napoli sometimes plays first or DHs and so Yorvit gets plenty of time to play. Moreland (1b or OF) and Murphy play against almost all righties, and they pinch hit for Yorvit or Gentry later in the game when the opponent switches from lefty to righty. Young plays 1b or 3B if Adrian is hurt.

There is a lot of flexibility there and the bench is a factor almost every day. Twelve players play at least semi-regularly, with the 13th player, the backup middle infielder, the only guy who frequently sits. And that's only because Kinsler and Andrus need hardly any time off.

And they also have a great middle reliever, Ogando, who has gone more than one inning 8 out of 23 times this season.



robertdudek - Wednesday, May 30 2012 @ 08:44 PM EDT (#257412) #
Okay Anders,

What happens when Mathis is in the game and you want to pinch hit with a lefthanded bat in a late and close situation? What if JP or Cooper reaches base and you want a basestealer, but your fastest bench player is McCoy. What happens if one of your starters has to leave a game with an injury?

sam - Wednesday, May 30 2012 @ 08:48 PM EDT (#257413) #
This is a bit unfair considering he's hit a homerun tonight, but watching Rajai Davis try to hit a slider is almost comedic. Breaking ball on the outer half is an almost guaranteed swinging strike.
Mike Green - Wednesday, May 30 2012 @ 09:34 PM EDT (#257415) #
The usage of Janssen is, um, unusual.  Yesterday's game, in particular, was a strange situation for him, and having done that, I don't see why you wouldn't pick out somebody else tonight.
Mike Green - Wednesday, May 30 2012 @ 09:40 PM EDT (#257416) #
...but it worked.  Nonetheless, if you have decided that Janssen is your best reliever and you are not going to baby him, why wouldn't you be trying to bring him in high leverage situations even if that means bringing him in for tie games in the eighth for two innings and not pitching with 3 or 4 runs leads in the ninth? 

The starters get their mojo back, stop walking the house, and presto, all is right in Toronto. 

Richard S.S. - Wednesday, May 30 2012 @ 09:42 PM EDT (#257417) #
How many days-in-a-row is this for Janssen?
Mike Green - Wednesday, May 30 2012 @ 09:50 PM EDT (#257418) #
Anders, the club has put in very significant resources ($) to the bullpen and hardly any to the bench.  Francisco got very little time, but part of that had to do with the shortage on the bench.  Davis got most of the early opportunities in the OF against LH pitching that could have gone to Francisco and had fewer pinch-running opportunities than he might have, as a result.  As Robert pointed out, it's harder to pinch-run if you don't have sufficient manpower on the bench for the subsequent defensive replacement. 
Kasi - Wednesday, May 30 2012 @ 09:54 PM EDT (#257419) #
Well some were complaining that Farrell doesn't use his relievers multiple times in a row like Maddon. I think that puts that idea to bed. I think Farrell might not trust some of his lesser relievers but that's a different thing. Nice to get a sweep of the Orioles and I'm very glad that Morrow seems to not have a broken leg.
Sherrystar - Wednesday, May 30 2012 @ 10:00 PM EDT (#257421) #
Per Barry Davis' Twitter, Morrow walking normally, doesn't expect to miss his next start. Great news.
neurolaw - Wednesday, May 30 2012 @ 10:08 PM EDT (#257422) #
After the Texas Chainsaw Massacre this is what the starters do against the Orioles.

19.1 IP 24 K 6 BB 2 HR. Amazing what happens pitchers strike out hitters and not walk them.

I guess the sky is not falling. And good news on Morrow who had a fantastic bounce back start after Texas.
Richard S.S. - Wednesday, May 30 2012 @ 10:09 PM EDT (#257423) #
Even with this team's unsual ups and downs, attendance is up a fair bit with 610,373 fans attending 25 Home games.   A day off, then a still under-achieving Boston team arrives.   Which Blue Jays team shows up?   With possibly only two of Alvarez, Drabek and Hutchison needed to start before Romero and Morrow can, who's odd man out?
Magpie - Wednesday, May 30 2012 @ 10:10 PM EDT (#257424) #
Why does probably the smartest organization in baseball use relievers the way they do? ...last year, when every one of their relief pitchers went under an inning per appearance, it was because the starters put up 1050 innings.

There was nothing special about last year. Maddon's bullpens have been run like this for the last five years. Each year his bullpen has averaged less than an inning per appearance. The 2011 A's and the 2010 Twins are the only others that came close.

The minor leagues have been slaves to the major leagues for 60+ years. I wish it weren't so, but I don't see a huge outcry against it.

You and me, we cry out!
neurolaw - Wednesday, May 30 2012 @ 10:16 PM EDT (#257425) #
Good question Richard I feel like Farrell might go with the youngsters but if I had to pick one it would be Drabek. Command issues vs. Red Sox generally spells disaster.
grjas - Wednesday, May 30 2012 @ 10:23 PM EDT (#257426) #
Even with this team's unsual ups and downs, attendance is up a fair bit with 610,373 fans attending 25 Home games

Yeah but what i find particularly positive is the age of the fan base. I drive along bremner on the route home from work andi have been pleasantly surprised at how young the fan base is this year. Kids with parents, teens and 20 sometings. A great story from a few years ago when it was mostly geezers...like me.
BlueJayWay - Wednesday, May 30 2012 @ 10:27 PM EDT (#257427) #
Jason Hammels is making insinuations about the Jays getting tipped off on pitches.  The Man in White returns.
BlueJayWay - Wednesday, May 30 2012 @ 10:30 PM EDT (#257428) #
Yeah but what i find particularly positive is the age of the fan base. I drive along bremner on the route home from work andi have been pleasantly surprised at how young the fan base is this year. Kids with parents, teens and 20 sometings. A great story from a few years ago when it was mostly geezers...like me.

I was at the game last Saturday the Morrow shut out against the Mets.  Granted I was in 500 level so the cheap seats, but it seemed almost everyone there was like college age-ish.  Real frat party atmosphere.  Of course I'm only 31 but it seems a lot of the fanbase these days is younger than that.  It's weird.  Big crowds that weekend too...
Thomas - Wednesday, May 30 2012 @ 10:33 PM EDT (#257429) #
The thing that most puzzles me about Francisco, perhaps even more than why he was left to sit on the bench while Adam Lind flailed away against a lefty, is why he only got 7 innings in the outfield and spent the rest of the time at DH.

I don't have strong memories of him from Philly or Cleveland, but I'd need to see it with my own eyes to believe he is a worse fielder than Thames. I don't understand why Farrell started Francisco at DH and Thames in the outfield several times (which did happen at least twice, although often times Francisco deservedly played DH as Davis started as well).

Either Farrell was deploying a suboptimal lineup defensively, which I can't see any reason for, or else Francisco is a worse fielder than Thames. However, if that's the case, it raises the question of why Anthopolous acquired a fifth outfielder who was not stronger defensively than Thames and not only didn't merit being used as a defensive sub, but also couldn't even start the game in the field. That detracts a noticeable part of the value of the player.

This comes back to Mike's point about not devoting resources to the bench, but I hope the driving factor in the Francisco acquisition wasn't that he came at basically no cost.
Kasi - Wednesday, May 30 2012 @ 10:53 PM EDT (#257430) #
Geez, not that again. It's not like the guys who hit are all RH either. Rasmus hits the other way, plus he let Davis hit a HR off of him.
Anders - Wednesday, May 30 2012 @ 11:13 PM EDT (#257433) #
Re: pinch hitting. I agree with almost everything being said - there are many more creative ways to utilize a bench. However, most American League teams seem uninterested in employing them, the Jays included. In the case of the Blue Jays, there is no starter that is an obvious pinch hit candidate, nor a laggard in the Bengie Molina mould. There isn't any point in having that 5th or 6th guy if the club isn't going to use them, and I am not sure that they would, given that they basically ignored their bench until recent injury woes.

Robert, re the Mathis scenario, there might be 10 times a year where pinch hitting for Mathis in a close situation may be desirable, and it might gain you 2 runs. You could just as easily use an extra LOOGY to gain platoon advantages that would be just as large as the difference between Mathis and pinch hitter, except do it 85 times a year. I am completely convinced by your arguments (Mike as well) about the merits of assembling a deeper bench. I am just not sure the Jays have shown any inclination to do so, nor given current usage patterns that it would be overly beneficial (changing usage patterns is, I think, a separate argument).

92-93 - Thursday, May 31 2012 @ 02:02 AM EDT (#257435) #
Up 4-1 in the bottom 8th I was surprised Farrell didn't pinch run for his DH David Cooper with Mike McCoy, and I hope it was because he didn't want to find himself in a situation where the Orioles forced extras and Escobar or Vizquel had to leave the game. Still, it would be nice to have the kind of roster where you can send someone out in that spot to steal you a bag and release some of the tension of the 9th inning by expanding your lead.
China fan - Thursday, May 31 2012 @ 05:16 AM EDT (#257436) #
Don't look now, but the 2nd-best OPS in the Jays lineup is ... Rajai Davis. Yes, it's only 71 plate appearances, so it could be a mirage, but it would be nice if he develops into the LF that the Jays badly need. So far he's doing it with an unusually high SLG of .485, which is far above his career norms, so there's still a distinct risk that he might regress to his career averages. But a LF with speed and some power would be a very nice asset in the lineup, while we wait for the development of Snider, Gose, Thames, Sierra, etc.

Davis had a bad year in 2011, but I wonder if it was partly because of the pressure of being asked to replace Vernon Wells in CF. That's a lot of expectation to put on a guy who was widely seen as a back-up when he was first acquired. This year there's been no pressure, he's been allowed to slowly work into the regular lineup, and he's done much better. This is a guy who posted a .784 OPS as recently as 2009, so he's performed at a high level before, and it would be a big asset to the Jays if he could achieve that again.
robertdudek - Thursday, May 31 2012 @ 08:34 AM EDT (#257437) #
Robert, re the Mathis scenario, there might be 10 times a year where pinch hitting for Mathis in a close situation may be desirable, and it might gain you 2 runs.

Two runs is two runs: pennants have been settled by less.

The Jays have had 8 relievers on the roster twice this year for a total of 15 days this year and the 8th man has not entered a game yet.
uglyone - Thursday, May 31 2012 @ 08:55 AM EDT (#257440) #
How many games have they had 4 bench guys and not used any of them?

whiterasta80 - Thursday, May 31 2012 @ 09:32 AM EDT (#257447) #

A professional will be ready regardless of how long he's been waiting to come in.  John MacDonald's fielding didn't suffer from riding the pine, ditto Matt Stairs' hitting. The key is identifying the guys who can do those things well.  This is one area that the Yankees have been particularly adept over the past two decades (Andruw Jones being a good example). 

Besides, I think we're getting to some circular logic here.  Having a 4 man bench actually handcuffs what you can do with substitutions. The McCoy example above being exhibit A.  If we had another MI, or another base stealer on the roster then it becomes a no brainer to pinch run for Mathis (or pinch hit for that matter).  That we had a shortened bench means that we had to leave things be. Just because we aren't using the bench when there are 4 people are on it, doesn't mean we wouldn't use it if there were 5, or 6 on it; quite the opposite in fact. Also, as I mentioned before, Farrell seems to prefer to have his flexibility in the bullpen rather with position players. Again, you can't use the argument that we aren't using the bench to refute the theoretical assertion that if we ran with a 5 (or 6) man bench would provide more value.

Incidentally it is a shame that we don't have Sergio Santos on the roster right now.  Having a guy in the bullpen who could cover 3B, SS, and 2B in a pinch would be interesting and useful right now.

John Northey - Thursday, May 31 2012 @ 09:36 AM EDT (#257448) #
Part of the trick with relievers is that extra ones can help make the good ones better. How? By giving them more rest.

The proof is in the pudding...
HOF closers and 200+ ERA+ seasons & 150+ seasons
Wilhelm: 1 / 12 (2 of the 12 were as a starter)
Fingers: 2 / 3
Gossage: 3 / 9
Sutter: 2 / 4
Eck: 2 / 4

None had more than 3 200+ ERA+ seasons.
-----
More recent...
Percival: 4 / 6
Wetteland: 3 / 6
Wagner: 5 / 13
Hoffman: 3 / 8

and of course...
Rivera: 13 / 16

Take note how all of these guys had 3+ 200+ ERA+ seasons. All were in the era of 1 inning closers.

For the Jays...
Henke: 3 / 8 but 2 of the 3 were in sub-50 IP seasons, one under 20 IP. The 3rd was just 54 1/3 IP.
Ward: 2 / 3 - all in a row then his arm went kaboom

Clearly if a guy is doing the amazing 200+ ERA+ and building up innings ala Ward their arm is not long for this world. But if used like more recent guys you see 200+ ERA+'s fairly often, at a pace the old 100+ IP closers never could dream of. And no one would put Percival in the HOF, or Wetteland. Wagner has few fans who'd put him there. Some dispute Hoffman even. Yet Wagner had more 'wow' seasons than any closer currently in the HOF despite playing in the 'steroid era'. Food for thought on the massively expanded pens.
Matthew E - Thursday, May 31 2012 @ 09:38 AM EDT (#257449) #
Incidentally it is a shame that we don't have Sergio Santos on the roster right now.  Having a guy in the bullpen who could cover 3B, SS, and 2B in a pinch would be interesting and useful right now.

I like the way you think.
robertdudek - Thursday, May 31 2012 @ 10:20 AM EDT (#257456) #
How many games have they had 4 bench guys and not used any of them?

A team like Texas uses its bench every game, because it has a good one and recognizes that it helps you win games. A team like Toronto doesn't use its bench often and doesn't have a good one. Hmmmm, whose fault is that?
85bluejay - Thursday, May 31 2012 @ 10:58 AM EDT (#257460) #
Teams with good benches like the Rangers & Yankees use their bench very productively - the Jays don't use their bench much because it's bereft of talent - it's one of AA's biggest failures - part of the problem may be because quality veterans prefer to go to contenders but this doesn't excuse AA  - he has to work harder to improve the bench.
John Northey - Thursday, May 31 2012 @ 11:17 AM EDT (#257462) #
I'd list getting solid production from more than one of 1B/LF/DH as a higher priority than the bench personally.

Still, generally a bench gets better as you get closer to contention because then guys who are good enough to play everyday on a bad team are willing to be bench guys since they want to make the playoffs. Those are the guys you want on the bench, but are hard to get when you look likely to be in 4th place forever. Chicken and egg issue really.
92-93 - Thursday, May 31 2012 @ 11:39 AM EDT (#257467) #

I'd list getting solid production from more than one of 1B/LF/DH as a higher priority than the bench personally.

It's really the same discussion. If LF & 1B were filled by more capable hands you'd have Rajai & Lind on the bench.

uglyone - Thursday, May 31 2012 @ 11:41 AM EDT (#257468) #
Not sure what bench you guys are talking about. We've both used our bench, and it's been quite productive. Not quite up to the golden standard set by the Rangers (thanks largely to outlier contributions from gentry and Snyder), though.


R.Davis: 71pa, .795ops, .351woba, 121wRC+, 0.5war
J.Mathis: 41pa, .710ops, .311woba, 94wRC+, 0.4war
Y.Gomes: 27pa, .796ops, .329woba, 106wRC+, 0.2war
D.Cooper: 22pa, .745ops, .329woba, 107wRC+, 0.1war
O.Vizquel: 42pa, .530ops, .250woba, 52wRC+, -0.1war
B.Francisco: 37pa, .535ops, .230woba, 38wRC+, -0.3war

Toronto Total: 240pa, 0.8war

C.Gentry: 87pa, .753ops, .346woba, 114wRC+, 1.3war
B.Snyder: 40pa, .970ops, .415woba, 161wRC+, 0.4war
A.Gonzalez: 46pa, .623ops, .268woba, 60wRC+, 0.2war
Y.Torrealba: 92pa, .643ops, .289woba, 74wRC+, 0.2war

Texas Total: 265pa, 2.1war

E.Nunez: 59pa, .729ops, .337woba, 109wRC+, 0.4war
A.Jones: 77pa, .775ops, .334woba, 107wRC+, 0.3war
C.Stewart: 42pa, .494ops, .220woba, 29wRC+, 0.0war
E.Chavez: 82pa, .720ops, .303woba, 86wRC+, 0.0war
J.Nix: 29pa, .757ops, .309woba, 90wRC+, -0.1war
D.Wise: 24pa, .341ops, .165woba, -9wRC+, -0.1war

Yankees Total: 311pa, 0.5war
bpoz - Thursday, May 31 2012 @ 11:48 AM EDT (#257470) #
This is a really interesting discussion about strategy & roster construction & usage.
But does it work. It seems obvious to me that if you KNOW ( almost a sure thing) a strategy will work then you should use it. The only example I can think of is Rickey stealing bases.

Each manager will do things his own way. Joe Torre had success with the NYY, IMO he was good at managing the personalities of the players & owner, and the team was very talented. Jimy Williams in Boston yanked his starter quickly quite often IMO and had 2 relievers, R Graces for one, pitched 3 innings very often. Those Boston teams had good hitting IMO. So I think he had some success (4 years?). Cito I don't think made a lot of moves IMO, and also IMO had good success. He did a lot of moves in 1992 against Atlanta, I cannot remember why, this was in Atlanta (NL) so that is probably why...Sprague hit the HR off Reardon, J Carter at 1st with Timlin pitching.

Maybe good teams make their manager & his strategies look smart. LaRussa last year may have had a good team, but IMO he did not know that Atlanta would choke. He was smart enough to use his players properly, Mott as his closer, L Berkman hitting well, successful revamped pen etc... I mean if players are hot & in bunches then don't mess with it, if that is what he did and if he did mess with it and became more successful then ... But I cannot think of any odd or questionable strategies that he used. However I admit that my memory & ability to evaluate strategies is weak.

Sorry for being vague.

How about this for a strategy:- Morrow gets knocked out of the game because of the leg injury. If it is a close game (not a 3 run lead) and you have more confidence in a SP that could go 2-4 innings would you use him. Alvarez pitches next so he is the most rested, assume a 1 run lead with 4-5 innings to go . This could mess up many things, the rotation, make the pen feel insulted, mess up Alvarez himself. There must be other reasons as well.

I would probably not want to do this. But I would consider it if I felt that I was a serious contender say in 2014. I mean, assume Alvarez has developed even more & the current Lansing stud SPs or someone are doing well at AA/AAA.

Santos as a substitute IF is interesting, but I would be afraid of injury. I would be less afraid if for some reason he wanted to & management let him do fielding regularly during BP or IF practice.
uglyone - Thursday, May 31 2012 @ 11:55 AM EDT (#257471) #
And the notion of the rangers having great "versatility" is a bit of a generous statement, and it's probably more accurate to just say they have a couple of fairly straightforward platoons in the lineup.

1B M.Moreland: .831ops v. RHP, .574ops v. LHP
1B/C M.Napoli: .846ops v. RHP, .923ops v. LHP
1B Y.Torrealba: .696ops v. RHP, .730ops v. LHP (+ defense)

C Napoli + 1B Moreland v. RHP, C Torrealba + 1B Napoli v. LHP


LF D.Murphy: .832ops v. RHP, .643ops v. LHP
LF/CF J.Hamilton: .979ops v. RHP, .817ops v. LHP
CF C.Gentry: .606ops v. RHP, .708ops v. LHP (+ defense)

CF Hamilton + LF Murphy v. RHP, CF Gentry + LF Hamilton v. LHP


So Gentry and Torrealba play a bit more than the average bench guy because of these platoons, while Snyder and Gonzalez play typical bench roles.
uglyone - Thursday, May 31 2012 @ 12:46 PM EDT (#257475) #
Might as well just compare the bench guys straight up:

Career #s

OF R.Davis (31): 1218pa Vs. RHP .669ops/.296woba/80wRC+, 631pa Vs. LHP .760ops/.334woba/105wRC+, -1.2uzr/150 @ CF, -1.4uzr/150 @ OF
OF C.Gentry (28): 140pa Vs. RHP .606ops/.276woba/64wRC+, 154pa Vs. LHP .708ops/.313woba/89wRC+, 36.7uzr/150 @ CF, 32.4uzr/150 @ OF

UT B.Francisco (30): 1047pa Vs. RHP .755ops/.330woba/101wRC+, 504pa Vs. LHP .758ops/.335woba/105wRC+, 0.7uzr/150 @ LF, -6.4uzr/150 @ OF
UT Y.Gomes (24): 19pa Vs. RHP .868ops/.359woba/127wRC+, 8pa Vs. LHP .625ops/.258woba/58wRC+, 21.5yzr/150 @ 1B, 26.0uzr/150 @ 3B
UT D.Cooper (25): 88pa Vs.RHP .696ops/.305woba/89wRC+, 15pa Vs. LHP .667ops/.287woba/78wRC+, -4.0uzr/150 @ 1B
UT B.Snyder (25): 29pa v. RHP .510ops/.249woba/47wRC+, 48pa Vs. LHP 1.040ops/.444woba/181wRC+, 6.0uzr/150 @ 1B

IF O.Vizquel (45): 1171pa v. RHP .696ops/.310woba/84wRC+, 3423pa Vs. LHP .663ops/.294woba/74wRC+, 8.7uzr/150 @ SS
IF A.Gonzalez (29): 672pa Vs. RHP .556ops/.246woba/48wRC+, 282pa Vs. LHP .705ops/.307woba/88wRC+, 2.6uzr/150 @ SS

C J.Mathis (29): 980pa Vs. RHP .540ops/.242woba/42wRC, 421pa Vs. LHP .613ops/.268woba/59wRC+, +34DRS @ C
C Y.Torrealba (33): 2073pa Vs. RHP .695ops/.305woba/80wRC+, 784pa Vs. LHP .730ops/.317woba/88wRC+, -2 DRS @ C


Are we really saying that the Rangers' bench is far superior to ours? Aside from Gentry's eye-popping defensive numbers (in a very small sample), I'm not sure I see a heckuva lot of difference.

Mike D - Thursday, May 31 2012 @ 02:44 PM EDT (#257494) #

Getting back to Mike Green's point about adapting to the new era in baseball, is spray hitting the new inefficiency?  Clearly, the exaggerated shift doesn't apply only to sluggers anymore. 

I also wonder whether the running game and/or bunting will take on added offensive value if they can be used to effectively counteract the shift.

robertdudek - Thursday, May 31 2012 @ 02:55 PM EDT (#257496) #
First you have to decide what is and isn't a bench. In Texas, Moreland and Murphy are usually part of "the bench" when a lefthander starts.

This isn't something that can be understood with a few OPS stats. You have to look at the abilities of the players on your roster. The more diverse their talents are, the stronger the bench will be. Here are some questions you can answer...

1) Does the team start with good pinch hitting options on the bench (i.e. good lefties when a lefty starts, good righties when a  rightly starts)? How many?
2) Are there players who are an asset on the basepaths? How many?
3) Do you have defensive players that are an upgrade over what you start with? Do you have players that are effective defensively at multiple positions?
4) Do you have capable players to fill in at every position in case of injury?
5) How "rusty" are your bench players/ do you have players that rarely play? In a platoon, players on the bench usually start other games so are presumably more zoned in.



whiterasta80 - Thursday, May 31 2012 @ 03:10 PM EDT (#257499) #
Was about to post a reply and read Robert's... I couldn't articulate the argument better if I tried.
Mike Green - Thursday, May 31 2012 @ 04:28 PM EDT (#257500) #
I don't know if I would describe "spray hitting" as the new market inefficiency, but I sure would want my left-handed hitters who tend to pull the ball when swinging away to be able to lay down a bunt down the third base line.  One guesses that the Rays spent a lot of time with Carlos Pena addressing this very point. 

It is probably true that players with extreme pull tendencies but without the power to go with it are probably more likely to see a shift now than at any time in memory and hence are somewhat less likely to succeed than before. 
Gerry - Thursday, May 31 2012 @ 05:09 PM EDT (#257503) #

Forget about Hechavarria, it appears that the Jays still don't trust Alvarez or Drabek.  They have called up right handed reliever Robert Coello to replace Aaron Laffey.  Also Adam lind has been outrighted off the 40 man roster.

Obvious question, why bother exchanging Laffey for Coello?

mathesond - Thursday, May 31 2012 @ 05:14 PM EDT (#257505) #
why bother exchanging Laffey for Coello?

Maybe Vegas needs a starter more than a reliever? Assuming, of course, Laffey is no longer needs as a long man with the bullpen presumably rested and the team having days off before and after the Red Sox series
Jonny German - Thursday, May 31 2012 @ 05:14 PM EDT (#257506) #
Obvious question, who is Robert Coello?
Thomas - Thursday, May 31 2012 @ 05:31 PM EDT (#257508) #
I would have thought that, if you wanted eight pitchers, the third southpaw was more valuable against the Red Sox, given the presence of Ortiz, Gonzalez, Sweeney and Salty's splits.
uglyone - Thursday, May 31 2012 @ 05:32 PM EDT (#257509) #
I don't think it's tricky to sort out who is on each team's healthy "bench". In fact both TEX and TOR have similar needs on their benches.

Both teams feature 7 starters who were looked as full-time starters this year - for both teams it's the same 7 positions - CF, RF, 3B, SS, 2B, DH, and C. Now you can argue that for the Jays, their young CF and C might be better off being platooned, but for good reason the Jays this year wanted these two young guys playing full-time, and not being limited to a platoon role this early in their careers.

In LF and 1B, both teams this year started with questionable lefty bats.

Two vets:

1B Lind (28): Career .803ops v. RHP / .604ops v. LHP (2011: .771/.669)
LF Murphy (30): Career .832ops v. RHP / .643ops v. LHP (2011: .809/.507)

and two kids:

LF Thames (25): Career .757 v. RHP / .656 v. LHP (2011: .809/.637)
1B Moreland (26): Career .831 v. RHP / .574 v. LHP (2011: .783/.577)

Both teams needed cover for their lefty LF and 1B slots in the form of righties on the bench.

They both had kinda similar approaches to it, as well.

The Rangers strategy vs. LHP was to move their vet catcher to 1B, and push the backup C (torrealba)into the lineup. The Jays strategy vs. LHP was to move their vet DH to 1B, and push the backup DH (francisco) into the lineup.

Francisco (30): Career .758ops v. LHP / .755ops v. RHP (2011: .661/.738)
Torrealba (33): Career .730ops v. LHP / .696ops v. RHP (2011: .612/.744)

For LF, they both had a speedy OF who could play all 3 OF slots and hit lefties a bit.

OF Davis (31): Career .760ops v. LHP / .669 vs. RHP (2011: .829/.551)
OF Gentry (28): Career .709ops v. LHP / .606 vs. RHP (2011: .735/.648)

Davis being the more useful bat, both of them being A+ basrunners, and Gentry being the better fielder.

To this mix the jays chose to shore up their defense with Vizquel able to cover all the infield positions and Mathis a + defensive catcher.

The Rangers decided to go with Gonzalez to cover all the infield positions, and then give a shot to a middling youngish 1B/UT bat in Snyder as the last guy there.


Now there is a BIG caveat here - the Texas Rangers are in full-on contention mode, and therefore have utilized their platoon advantages to the max. There has been no coddling of young players to encourage them to develop against both LH and RH pitchers (like the Jays did with Thames), there has been no waiting around for vets to gain some more value (like the Jays did with Lind). For the rangers, they've been working those platoons 100% with no reservation. The jays have hade some ulterior motives and haven't been quite as strict - though they have made use of them to a good degree anyways.



as for your checklist, I think we can go through it as regards the Jays and answer most of those questions positively:

1) The numbers of both the RH bats (Davis, Francisco) v. LHP are good, as were the numbers of the LH bats (Thames, Lind, Snider) v. RHP, the ones who might be platooned for. All the oppo splits numbers were above average so the answer to #1 would be yes.
2) The answer to #2 is a resounding yes. Davis is one of the best baserunners in the league, and all of Vizquel, Mathis, and Francisco are solid there as well.
3) There are no ace defensive players on the bench, but Davis can field all 3 OF slots capably, Vizquel can field all infield slots capably, and mathis is a plus defensive catcher, so the defensive coverage from the bench is good (not great, just good).
4) The Jays have capable fill-ins for every position on the field (as the recent injury fill-ins by Davis and Vizquel attest), and what's more is that they have great depth on the farm to fill in as well. Nobody you want to rely on a starter for very long is sitting on our bench, but then again that's true of any bench, even the Rangers'.
5) I'm not sure what the "rusty" question is really trying to ask. The Jays have used their bench a good amount in all sorts of ways. The surprise season from EE definitely took some chances away from Francisco, though if Francisco was healthy he surely would have gotten his fair share of at bats more recently as Lind and Thames have faltered.


I don't think the Jays' bench deserves much criticism this year - in fact, it probably deserves praise.

Criticism should be saved for the starting lineup - specifically the 1B and LF slots. That's the biggest failure in roster building so far offensively for this team.

Jonny German - Thursday, May 31 2012 @ 06:16 PM EDT (#257513) #
Criticism should be saved for the starting lineup - specifically the 1B and LF slots. That's the biggest failure in roster building so far offensively for this team.

I'll half-agree. I think it was reasonable to expect one of Thames or Snider to adequately fill left field. But I was banging the "ditch Adam Lind" drum all off season. That's where AA really dropped the ball with the roster building, failing to come up with a legitimate first baseman.
Mike Green - Thursday, May 31 2012 @ 06:39 PM EDT (#257515) #
Can we recap?  We have a 3 game series sandwiched by off-days.  The Jays have just had 3 decent enough starts.  They are throwing right-handed starters in each of the games.  So, the club really needs a sixth right-handed arm in the bullpen to go with the two lefties?  What on earth is going on? 

Is there something going on in Las Vegas that we don't know about?  Maybe all the pitchers go the casino once a week with the winner earning a brief trip to the Show.   Whatever it is, nothing is staying in Vegas any more.

Thomas - Thursday, May 31 2012 @ 06:51 PM EDT (#257516) #
What on earth is going on?

It appears nobody knows. The next reasonable explanation for this move I hear will be the first.

scottt - Thursday, May 31 2012 @ 09:02 PM EDT (#257518) #
Co-Way-Yo,  6 relief appearances for Boston in 2010.

15 games in relief in Vegas. In his last 5 relief appearances they started stretching him to 3 and then 4 innings. Then he moved to the rotation for 2 games. In each starts in gave up only 1 earned run in 5 innings.

He's faced more left handed batters than right handed and has interesting splits:

left: .167  but 3 HR 9BB 15K
right .246 1HR 8BB 23K

I think the odds are he never pitches for Toronto and someone else grabs in off waivers in a few days.

robertdudek - Friday, June 01 2012 @ 07:33 AM EDT (#257525) #
Mr. Uglyone,

You are not looking at the current bench. The current bench is Mathis, Vizquel and McCoy. Please modify your post to reflect this.

Kasi - Friday, June 01 2012 @ 10:10 AM EDT (#257528) #
Of course the bench looks weaker once we've sent down Lind and Thames. I don't think uglyone disputes this at all. But in WAR numbers for how the bench players have performed so far this year, he is completely right. Our bench has done quite well, definitely better than the Yankees anyway.
92-93 - Friday, June 01 2012 @ 10:39 AM EDT (#257531) #
"Can we recap? We have a 3 game series sandwiched by off-days. The Jays have just had 3 decent enough starts."

And before those 3 decent starts the rest of the bullpen got the day off on Sunday when Chavez went 5 innings.
uglyone - Friday, June 01 2012 @ 10:53 AM EDT (#257532) #
Robby, I know I can come off as super clinical and all but please don't call me Mr.!

You're right, the bench is short right now, and only offers two positives - defense and baserunning. The three guys on the bench right now can cover all the positions on the field capably, and they're all good to very good baserunners. (and, I guess, Davis and McCoy are pretty good bunters too, for what it's worth).

If you're saying that sending Lind and Thames down put the players ahead of the best possible team, then I agree. Having Lind or Thames on the bench right now would likely make us a better team for this series....management seems to think that it's more important for them to get everyday at bats instead of loitering on the bench. Management thinks that it's more valuable to the team for them to "get sorted out", rather than to have the marginal advantage of a moderately better bench bat for a few games. This is debatable and I'm not sure I entirely agree with them when it comes to Lind, at least.

I do believe that Francisco is eligible to come off the DL after this series, though, and Gomes is eligible to come up the series after that, so management is just gambling they can survive this series with a short bench, and is more worried about the Red Sox potentially pummeling one or two of our three young SP this series and ruining our bullpen as a result.

If Francisco or Gomes were eligible I assume they'd be up here right now, but in the meantime the team seems to be putting player development (everyday at bats for Lind/Thames, and not rushing the likes of Gose/Hech) ahead of putting out the perfect team.....for a couple of series, at least.
92-93 - Friday, June 01 2012 @ 10:59 AM EDT (#257533) #
If the bullpen needs help because they are tired, you make moves to fix it. I don't understand being proactive to prevent it when it's so easily rectifiable. I'd rather have even Chris Woodward (or any position player from Vegas) on the bench for tonight's game than Robert Coello.
uglyone - Friday, June 01 2012 @ 11:15 AM EDT (#257534) #
see, I'm not sure I can agree with that.

A guy like Woodward is useless, or at least no different than McCoy or Vizquel. The chances we'd ever need 3 guys like that in the same game are miniscule.

If we're talking about a good bench bat, of course, then that's a different story.

Meanwhile, if Alvarez gets lit up tonight, or if we light up Buchholz tonight....if there's a blowout either way (or in any of the three games)...then I'd be happy to let Coello eat up a whole bunch of blowout innings instead of our good relievers.
92-93 - Friday, June 01 2012 @ 11:28 AM EDT (#257537) #
I'd be happy letting Chavez eat up those innings, just like he did on Sunday. And in the scenario he does, you send him down after the game and call up a fresh 7th arm to the bullpen.

A guy like Woodward is not useless. In the Jays last game they should have PR for Cooper in the 8th inning but didn't because of a lack of a proper bench.
uglyone - Friday, June 01 2012 @ 11:33 AM EDT (#257538) #
If they wanted to PR, McCoy was right there waiting.
uglyone - Friday, June 01 2012 @ 11:38 AM EDT (#257540) #
Oh, btw, this needs doublechecking but I believe a complication here is that Chavez is out of options, and they don't want to send him down because they're pretty sure they'll lose him like they lost Igarashi. I think they want Chavez as the 7th guy in the 'pen for the forseeable future.

92-93 - Friday, June 01 2012 @ 11:38 AM EDT (#257541) #
I prefer to assume Farrell isn't a moron, and that he didn't PR because that would have meant if the game gets tied and Vizquel/Escobar get injured he was out of infielders, not wanting to get Johnson warm in an attempt to rest the hamstring. If Farrell didn't pinch run for the slow, singles-hitting DH in the bottom of the 8th of a 4-1 lead because he didn't think it was the right move, argh.
92-93 - Friday, June 01 2012 @ 11:40 AM EDT (#257543) #
As has been discussed before here, I don't see any reason Chavez would be out of options. He should have 2 left. There was no reason to lose Igarashi either.
China fan - Friday, June 01 2012 @ 11:43 AM EDT (#257544) #
".....If Francisco or Gomes were eligible I assume they'd be up here right now...."

Not sure if I agree with that, at least on Gomes anyway. When Gomes was sent down, the situation was the same as now, except that Johnson and Escobar were perhaps healthier and Thames was still on the team. Gomes doesn't replace any of those guys (unless you put Encarnacion at LF, which I think the Jays are reluctant to do). The Jays have simply made a decision that they want 8 relievers, even though it means a shorter bench. And they want Gomes to get regular playing time -- they don't want him sitting on the Jays bench as a pinch-hitter. Even when the Jays move back to 7 relievers, I don't think Gomes is rushed back up to the majors as soon as he becomes eligible, unless they want him to replace Cooper, which will depend on how Cooper hits in the next few games. Gomes needs development time, so he needs to be a starter in Las Vegas or a starter in Toronto, but not a bench player yet.
85bluejay - Friday, June 01 2012 @ 05:01 PM EDT (#257562) #
I have no idea but Richard Griffin in his column today commenting on the Jays week of frenzied moves, wrote that Chavez was kept after his 5 innings stint in Texas because he has no options left
92-93 - Monday, June 04 2012 @ 12:53 AM EDT (#257668) #
Wouldn't be the first time Griffin pulled something out of his ass. Jays PR department confirmed today that Chavez has 2 options left.
Advance Scout: Orioles, May 28-30 | 247 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.