Batter's Box Interactive Magazine Batter's Box Interactive Magazine Batter's Box Interactive Magazine
He left yesterday behind him, you might say he was born again, you might say he found a key for every door.

Colorado gives the ball to southpaw Jorge De La Rosa (7-4, 3.49). Josh Johnson (0-2, 5.40) hopes to help the Jays continue the climb back to Mountain .500. First pitch from the Dome is at 7:07 pm ET.

@BlueJays: .@BlueJays lineup: Cabrera-DH Bautista-RF Encarnacion-3B Lind-1B DeRosa-2B Davis-LF Rasmus-CF Arencibia-C Izturis-SS
Game Thread — 6/17 vs. Colorado | 70 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
greenfrog - Monday, June 17 2013 @ 05:04 PM EDT (#274348) #
You never like to see a player get injured, but the Jays catch a break with the injury to Tulowitski (OPS+ 166).
85bluejay - Monday, June 17 2013 @ 05:12 PM EDT (#274350) #
After Jason Hammel & Mark Guthrie last season (& others over the years), I was happy when the Jays got Esmil Rogers into their system - Colorado is a good place to go if you're looking to take a chance on a discounted pitcher (Yes, he came through Cleveland) - I don't know what the Rockies plans are for Drew Pomeranz, but I would love to get him into the Jays system.

If Johnson's blister becomes a concern again, I hope Gibbons pulls the plug quicker than against Texas - that Texas loss was a 2 game swing against a team that the Jays may be competing against for a wild card spot (hopefully).

smcs - Monday, June 17 2013 @ 06:58 PM EDT (#274351) #
Bautista is now the DH, Cabrera is in LF and Davis is in RF. That's not a good sign.
Kasi - Monday, June 17 2013 @ 08:47 PM EDT (#274354) #
Nah that is fine. Bautista got a little bit banged up on the weekend, so having him DH a few days isn't too bad. Davis likely has more range than him in RF anyway, although his arm is a noodle in comparison. Cabrera is the weakspot in defense anyway.
Magpie - Monday, June 17 2013 @ 09:01 PM EDT (#274355) #
What was that I just heard about Encarnacion's baserunning instincts?

Honest, the first thing I thought was "these guys have no idea how many outs Encarnacion made on the base paths last year. It was a lot." And then he gets doubled off on a liner to third.
sam - Monday, June 17 2013 @ 09:25 PM EDT (#274357) #
Solid baserunning there by Rasmus.
uglyone - Monday, June 17 2013 @ 09:27 PM EDT (#274358) #
man it's nice to have pitching again. JJ down to a 4.38era. Morrow the only SP left over 5 now.

great pitching and D from both sides tonight, and heads up running by Colby there.
JB21 - Monday, June 17 2013 @ 09:40 PM EDT (#274359) #
Great start by JJ, and the bullpen just keeps on ticking.
greenfrog - Monday, June 17 2013 @ 09:43 PM EDT (#274360) #
This team is playing really well. Lots to enthuse about, but how about Brett Cecil? Kid is having just a marvellous season (with a helping hand from Lind on D tonight). Way to come back from a 2-0 count on Helton with the bases loaded in a scoreless game.
JB21 - Monday, June 17 2013 @ 09:45 PM EDT (#274361) #
That 2-1 curve ball? Yikes.
BlueJayWay - Monday, June 17 2013 @ 09:45 PM EDT (#274362) #
I think we're heading back to the dead ball era.
Thomas - Monday, June 17 2013 @ 09:47 PM EDT (#274363) #
I believe Brett Cecil has now retired 26 batters in a row.
Richard S.S. - Monday, June 17 2013 @ 09:55 PM EDT (#274366) #
Cecil was perfect through 8.1 IP (25 batters), with the intentional walk, he has a no-hitter through 8.2 IP (26 batters).
ayjackson - Monday, June 17 2013 @ 10:37 PM EDT (#274368) #
Did Cecil not issue an IBB today?
uglyone - Monday, June 17 2013 @ 10:45 PM EDT (#274370) #
just struck me that Cecil getting the nod in the crucial hold situation means that he nay have moved past Oliver and become our go-to lefty setup man.

though on second thought, this was a tie game, and not a lead, so maybe not.
hypobole - Monday, June 17 2013 @ 11:23 PM EDT (#274372) #
"What was that I just heard about Encarnacion's baserunning instincts?"

To be fair, both Fangraphs and BR agree with Buck. They both show Edwin as a plus baserunner each of the past 3 seasons.
Magpie - Tuesday, June 18 2013 @ 12:10 AM EDT (#274373) #
Edwin as a plus baserunner each of the past 3 seasons

Nevertheless, last year he was among the league leaders in outs made on the basepaths. That's only a counting stat, I'm afraid. No theory of the game involved.
jerjapan - Tuesday, June 18 2013 @ 08:21 AM EDT (#274376) #
Cecil has definitely passed Oliver on the depth chart, he's the number 2 man in the pen behind Jansenn. 

I would figure Oliver is trade bait at this point - he's pitching okay, back from injury, great track record, affordable contract ...  he's the easiest guy to move for value, and he's basically redundant on our roster. 

RHP - Jansenn, Santos, Delabar, Rogers, McGowan, Wagner - Wagner's been great but has options, so he's down.

LHP - Cecil, Loup, Oliver, funky Perez, Luis Perez - as far as I recall, L. Perez, like McGowan, is out of options and needs to be added to the roster.

That's nine guys even if we demote Wagner and trade Oliver.



ayjackson - Tuesday, June 18 2013 @ 08:37 AM EDT (#274377) #
Luis Perez is basically replacement level. I'm not sure, if need be, that they don't try to slip him off the 40.
Mike Green - Tuesday, June 18 2013 @ 08:38 AM EDT (#274378) #
It was a well-pitched game, with good defensive plays on both sides.  The Jays got the W with a little luck- Arencibia's swinging bunt and Izturis' flare in the bottom of the eighth following Gonzalez' line drive right at Lind with runners on 2nd and 3rd in the top.  Izturis is still owed quite a few flares and Baltimore chops to make up for all those line drives he has hit at people this year.

I have no idea if Thole is a half-decent bunter.  If so, I would have pinch-hit him for Arencibia in the 8th, and maybe regardless.  Ordinarily, you'd have thought that it would be Bonifacio for Arencibia, but we know that Emilio can't bunt...Arencibia does look much better defensively than earlier in the season.  When was the last passed ball or wild pitch that he had a decent chance to get?  It was quite a while ago. 

Chuck - Tuesday, June 18 2013 @ 09:01 AM EDT (#274379) #
Arencibia does look much better defensively than earlier in the season. 

There was one specific pitch, however, where it looked like the same old Arencibia. I can't remember who it was Cecil was pitching to, but Arencibia got crossed up, as he often seems to with a man on second base, and dropped a clear strike, resulting in the umpire calling a ball (resulting in me harumphing the recent pitch framing studies that paint him in a favourable light). Cecil rallied and retired the batter, but it could have been a costly gaffe. Bases loaded and a 1-0 count rather than a 0-1 count. Big difference.
greenfrog - Tuesday, June 18 2013 @ 10:16 AM EDT (#274382) #
Chuck, I felt similarly about that pitch, but I don't think it was a clear strike. It was right on the corner and probably could have gone either way, even with more skillful framing.
ayjackson - Tuesday, June 18 2013 @ 10:39 AM EDT (#274383) #
Whether they're strikes or not, the consistent "stabbing" at pitches not thrown at his glove definitely costs his pitchers a few calls.

He made a nice play on the Rockies bunt down 3rd base earlier in the game though.

Regardless, if he can recover some trade value with more hot streaks than cold streaks over the remainder of the season, I'd like to see the Jays commit to a Thole/Jiminez future behind the dish.
John Northey - Tuesday, June 18 2013 @ 10:40 AM EDT (#274384) #
The pen is getting very crowded and likely more so as guys get healthy and 60 day DL'ers start coming back.  McGowan was the first, next is Luis Perez then in a month or so we should see Drabek and Hutchison being ready too.  Not to mention Santos whenever he gets back.

So, who does the manager trust?  That might give us a good insight to who he wants to keep.  Using aLI (average leverage index) in descending order.
Over 1.5 (ie: used only when the pressure is high): Janssen, Redmond (2 games)
Over 1 (ie: normally used in pressure situations): Juan Perez, Oliver, Delabar, McGowan, Loup, Wagner
1.009: Jays average
0.75 to 1 (not avoided, but not given high end work): Cecil, Lincoln, Santos, Weber, Rogers
Below 0.75 (avoided, used only when no other option is there): Ortiz, Jeffress, Gonzalez, Storey, Bush, Germano (last two were below 0.01)

Bit surprised at how low Cecil and Santos were.  Santos only had a few games, but Cecil has been a pressure guy lately.  10 times Cecil was used in a no-pressure game (0.25 or less), but also 8 times in a high pressure (1.5 or more plus two more in the high 1.4 range).  Guess Cecil is the all-around guy used as often as possible.

If you go by save/hold opportunities then the ranking is... Janssen (16, 1 blown), Loup (7, 1 blown), Delabar (5, 2), Oliver (5,1), Rogers (5,1), Cecil (4,0), Wagner (2,0), Perez (1,1), and Santos (1,0).  The rest have yet to be given a chance when the Jays are up by 3 or less and winning. 

Redmond was a function of timing - extra innings and exhausted pens.  Right now though it seems Janssen, Loup, Delabar, Cecil, Oliver, Perez, Wagner, McGowan are the 8 the manager wants in the pen in that order.

My best guess as to what happens as guys come back is the Jays either try to do a trade (make use of pen depth to try to find a real 2B) or send down Wagner followed by Perez and McGowan (risk waivers with both and hope for the best). 

Btw, relief ERA is now 3.07 with 9 guys sub-3 for ERA (including AAA Weber and DL Santos), and 4 sub 2 (Perez, Wagner sub 1, Cecil & Delabar).

While I'm there, the starters are down to 4.89 for ERA with the top 3 being Rogers (1.26), Wang (3.14) and AAA Jenkins (3.60 but stinking in AAA allowing 5+ runs in each of 3 starts after allowing 2 runs in each of his 3 ML starts and his one AA start).  The big 5 are Johnson (4.38), Buehrle (4.66), Dickey (4.90), Morrow (5.63) and Romero (12.46).  Happ DL'ed at 4.91 and Ortiz at 5.51.  Funny - Happ might be back to #6 or even #7 whenever he returns if Rogers and Wang keep this up.
Chuck - Tuesday, June 18 2013 @ 10:43 AM EDT (#274385) #
I referred to it a clear strike since the entirety of the ball was within the strike zone, as per Pitch Trax, rather than just partly in the strike zone. Of course you're right, the umpire could have blown the call anyway.

Arencibia is certainly better with men on second base, when he has to go to an alternate set of signs, than he was earlier in the year when we saw numerous cross-ups and numerous mound visits. But this is still an area he needs to work on. He still too frequently anticipates the wrong pitch. And we have seen that umpires are easily thrown off by dropped balls and sweeping catches.
Hodgie - Tuesday, June 18 2013 @ 10:53 AM EDT (#274386) #
To be fair, there is another component to framing and the stabbing at pitches not hitting Arencibia's glove would be greatly reduced if pitchers actually hit the glove from time to time.
Ryan Day - Tuesday, June 18 2013 @ 10:55 AM EDT (#274387) #
RHP - Jansenn, Santos, Delabar, Rogers, McGowan, Wagner

Santos has pitched all of 9 innings since the start of last year. He's the new Dustin Mcgowan - I'm not counting on him contributing anything until he's actually back on the MLB roster. (and maybe not even then)
92-93 - Tuesday, June 18 2013 @ 11:18 AM EDT (#274388) #
"Izturis is still owed quite a few flares and Baltimore chops to make up for all those line drives he has hit at people this year."

This weekend vs. Baltimore would be a good time to start getting those chops. He's hitting .345 with a couple of doubles over the last week.
92-93 - Tuesday, June 18 2013 @ 11:24 AM EDT (#274389) #
The team is currently carrying Neil Wagner and Juan Perez. Dustin McGowan is a massive question mark. Casey Janssen doesn't seem right to me. Darren Oliver is approaching 43. Cecil, Loup, and Delabar are all on pace for bullpen workloads they have never handled. The last thing I'm worried about right now is the arms-related roster crunch, because I'm confident it will all sort itself out. A lot of ink was spilled discussing JA Happ and how there wasn't a spot for him in a rotation that has now used 12 different starting pitchers. If there actually ever is an overflow, it's pretty easy to move a reliever for some value.
Ryan Day - Tuesday, June 18 2013 @ 11:35 AM EDT (#274390) #
The Jays could theoretically slow down Luis Perez' rehab to avoid a roster crunch, if necessary - if they waited until early August to start his rehab assignment, he wouldn't have to join the big club until September, when rosters expand. He'd probably also be ready before that, if they needed to call him up to replace someone else.
John Northey - Tuesday, June 18 2013 @ 11:45 AM EDT (#274391) #
92-93: true, given injuries and the like it isn't hard to imagine the pen sorting itself out but the headache for AA is if everyone is healthy at the same time then what do you do?  Right now there are 7 guys doing a great job, an 8th who you cannot remove without losing him (McGowan), a 9th who is doing a great job in the rotation at the moment (Rogers), a 10th who did good work last year but has been DL'ed since then and is currently in the minors rehabbing (Perez), an 11th who should return someday (Santos), a 12 & 13th who should be fighting for a rotation slot but will probably be in the pen for 2013 (Drabek and Hutchison) and should return within 6-8 weeks.  Then you have guys in AAA who might deserve a shot (Lincoln, Weber, Storey, Stilson, Jeffress, Carreno, ...). 

The pen right now is the least of the Jays worries, but to maximize value AA might be well advised to make a trade involving 2 or 3 of them plus something else to get a solid guy for second base if possible.  Baltimore is the only team with a lower sOPS+ out of their second basemen (57 vs Jays 63, all others are 70+).  Trick is finding a contender with serious pen issues and depth at second base.  Cleveland has a weak pen (4.15 ERA) and a very good guy at 2B in Jason Kipnis but he isn't into arbitration years yet so they won't dump him.  St Louis might be a good target as their pen is giving them troubles (4+ ERA) and at 2B they have Matt Carpenter* (139 OPS+) and Daniel Descalso* (117 OPS+ but just 86 lifetime) so there might be a match if the Jays feel Descalso is a better option than the crew we have here now.  The only issue is he is still a negative defensively at 2B (-5.5 UZR/150 lifetime).  Sigh.

Ah well.  There are always possibilities and if injuries hit other teams pens then opportunity awaits.
92-93 - Tuesday, June 18 2013 @ 11:48 AM EDT (#274392) #
Luis Perez pitched in Dunedin on June 10th, and hasn't since. Barring another injury (which may have occurred) the Jays have 3 weeks to call him up.
92-93 - Tuesday, June 18 2013 @ 11:54 AM EDT (#274393) #
"but the headache for AA is if everyone is healthy at the same time then what do you do?"

That's a headache AA wants to have, I promise you. It's not concerning in the slightest, and is exceedingly unlikely to happen.

The answer to your question is easy, though. Wagner, Loup, and Delabar have options, and Juan Perez is waiver wire fodder. AA has plenty of flexibility if the time ever comes that he needs to make a decision.
Paul D - Tuesday, June 18 2013 @ 12:07 PM EDT (#274394) #
Obviously it takes more than a reliever or two, but what do you think it would take to get Kolten Wong from St. Louis? (If they'd even trade him)
earlweaverfan - Tuesday, June 18 2013 @ 12:13 PM EDT (#274395) #
John, I am very much hoping that you are right about the Jays trying to do a trade.  You have mentioned one key factor being previously injured pitchers Perez, Drabek, Hutchison and Santos.  The challenge, of course, is both smaller and much bigger than that.  For example, I believe that Drabek and Hutchison can be told  to prove themselves in AAA until the September call-ups.  Perez and Santos are the only pitchers you named who still will need to be accommodated, but then so will Morrow and arguably Happ.  I do believe that the Jays will be loth to have players who have earned a job lose it due to injury alone, if they can show they have returned to their previous best form.

A second factor is that we no longer may need an 8-man bullpen.  If our starters keep up their 7+ inning habit, and our bullpen artists keep out-performing, it will be tough to justify 8 relievers at a time.  Given how short the trip is from Buffalo, we could even potentially justify a six-man pen. 

A third factor could conceivably be Ricky Romero.  If he keeps improving the way he has been (yes, I know, very recent SSS), would the Jays be willing to leave him twisting in the AAA wind?  If not, whom would he replace on the current roster?

A fourth factor is then the bumping by Morrow (and possibly Romero) of either Rogers or Wang, or both.  If Rogers gets bumped by either, then he surely reverts to the pen, and whom does he bump then?  If Wang does more than the Jays ever expected of him (i.e., the path he is currently on), what do they do with him if he becomes surplus to requirements?

A fifth factor, of course, is the imminent return of Reyes, as well as the eventual return of Lawrie.  The Jays can readily send Kawasaki down, I know.  But who would be next after that?

Plenty of reasons then, to pursue what can be achieved on the trade market, as well as to reinforce the momentum that the team has been building over the last few days.

What  targets should get top priority?  Yes, a real second baseman, but also a real catcher, and a real bench.  If we could upgrade at 3b and left field, too, that would be ideal, if most unlikely.  My preferences for the first two would be Kinsler and Mauer, and we all know how impossible it would be to make them available, or for an achievable price.  Still, I am not willing to write off AA ever since last fall.  His trades seemed miraculous then, albeit very mortal all this spring, but then potentially brilliant once again in June. 

There may be better names to consider.  Still, it won't be easy, and there are several impediments to pulling this off in a timely way:
  1. Morrow had had a poor start to his year, and we just can't know what kind of a pitcher he will be when he rejoins us.  If he does turn it around, how quickly?
  2. What is Romero's new upside?  How likely is it that he will reach it?
  3. What kind of pitcher will Happ be on his return?
  4. What kind of pitcher will Santos be on his return?
  5. It could be argued that all four of these guys will lower the overall performance of the current pitching staff on their return.  That is a problem for the Jays, but also for any team we might want to trade them to
  6. Many of the likely players to be traded away are well below their peak value
  7. So far, there are and likely, there will be a lot of teams close enough to contention that they will either not be wanting to trade away key players until the end of the trade deadline, or that they will be competing with the Jays for the available talent
  8. Even worse, there are many teams that the Jays will not want to trade with, as they are potential competitors for American League post-season slots
  9. Finally, the Jays will be much less interested in trading from their much smaller roster of top prospects, having depleted that portfolio greatly last fall

So, if the Jays are going to overcome a tough, tight market, it might be necessary to take action early as they did last fall and try to make moves sooner than the rest of the teams.

Whom should the Jays be willing to trade at this stage (assuming that any holes thus created get a reasonable replacement)?  They should happily consider reasonable offers for:

  • Arencibia (if his current streaky surge continues for a few weeks)
  • Morrow (if he starts to show promise in his comeback.  I am unimpressed about how much he regressed before his injury.)
  • Romero (if he shows signs of becoming the old Ricky again.  I am also unimpressed with his mental/emotional game and the chance of future regression)
  • Izturis (yesterday notwithstanding)
  • Bonifacio (for the team that needs his type of back-up skills)
  • Oliver (Cecil and Loup are sufficient on the port side, especially if Luis Perez returns)
  • Juan Perez (ditto)
  • Cabrera (once he gets a short stretch on the DL, and then returns with happier hamstrings)

The following players should be hung onto for now, as they have more potential value than they show today.  However, they, too, could become surplus before long:

  • Santos (high potential, and locked up for several years, but oo injury prone)
  • Happ (not good enough for this team)
  • Luis Perez (ditto)
  • Drabek (like Ricky, struggles to turn physical talent into results, due to emotional factors)

Complex, eh?  That is why they pay AA the big bucks.  I look forward to watching what he does.



whiterasta80 - Tuesday, June 18 2013 @ 12:16 PM EDT (#274396) #
Paul, it'll Osuna, or Stroman plus something.

We had our shot and we took Tyler Beede instead. That has to go down as one of AA's bigger blown decisions.
AWeb - Tuesday, June 18 2013 @ 01:06 PM EDT (#274401) #

When did it become important to find a place for Hutchinson? I remember him as a surprising call up to fill in the rotation in a pinch, not a hotshot prospect who had dominated the minors and needed to face MLB hitters. Drabek stunk and then got injured - he needs more minor league time too. Put them in AAA and deal with the roster crunch there. The currently injured (Drabek, Hutchinson, Santos, Perez) aren't exactly ready for the weekend either, there's no hurry with any of those guys.

Have Janssen's issues really been explained? Is his apparent day-to-day status expected to get better at some point?

Also, sorting out who to keep, demote, or release, in the case of too many pitchers, is a fresh new challenge for Anthropoulos. I don't think it's come up before, although creating this situation has seemingly been his career long goal (his constatn reliever acquisitions). I figure he has a plan...who's the dumbest GM right now that has something the Jays need?

johnny was - Tuesday, June 18 2013 @ 01:25 PM EDT (#274403) #
The Jays have a good trading relationship with the current regime in Philly, now 8.5 games back in the NL East and 7.5 back in the Wild Card, and there are some potential deals that would make sense if they drop out of contention in the next few weeks.  Chase Utley (OPS+ 120) would be a logical trade target for AA.  He's 34 and in his walk year, but currently battling some oblique issues.  Even Michael Young, also on an expiring contract, might make sense as a lower cost alternative, but his defense at second has been pretty terrible for his career.  I can't imagine you'd have to sell the farm to acquire either for 2 or 3 months at this stage in their careers.
uglyone - Tuesday, June 18 2013 @ 01:52 PM EDT (#274407) #
Which players have options of course is a huge factor in what guys we can keep. I'm not 100% on all of these guys so correct me if I'm wrong.

Starting Pitching without options:

1. J.Johnson
2. R.Dickey
3. M.Buehrle
4. B.Morrow
5. E.Rogers

Starting Pitching that can be stashed in the minors:

6. J.Happ
7. C.Wang
8. R.Romero
9. D.Hutchison
10. K.Drabek

Starting Pitching in AA that may deserve promotion to AAA:

11. S.Nolin
12. M.Stroman
13. C.Jenkins
14. D.McGuire

Despite the disaster that this year's starting pitching has been, there actually is a good amount of depth there, and if the top guys get healthy and back to normal we might have the depth to trade some.


Relief Pitchers without options:

RH Janssen
LH Cecil
RH Santos
LH Oliver
RH McGowan
LH L.Perez
RH Wagner
LH J.Perez

Relief Pitchers that can be stashed in the minors:

LH Loup
RH Delabar
RH Lincoln
RH Stilson
RH Storey
RH Jeffress
RH Carreno

So technically there are only 8 relievers that can't be stashed in the minors, which isn't really a crunch, but realistically there's no way Loup and Delabar are getting sent down, so there is a crunch.

The thing is, there's a good chance all of McGowan, Wagner, Perez, and Perez would clear waivers at this point. All four of these guys are pretty iffy at this point - IMO they can't be trusted enough to trade away better relievers, neither can they be traded for anything of value.

Then again, given that re-signing Oliver next year is totally unnecessary, and given that he's not one of our best relievers this year, trading him does seem like a no-brainer.

If the Jays' pitchers do get healthy, they could consider trading a package of pitchers for a legit second baseman.

Something like Happ + Oliver + Bonifacio + prospect for a good bat.
Mike Green - Tuesday, June 18 2013 @ 02:01 PM EDT (#274408) #
A brief (hopefully amusing) note on projection.  Case in point- Brett Cecil. Fangraphs has the ZIPS and Steamer projections for rest of season.  ZIPS projects that he'll make 24 appearances, 11 starts and throw 80 innings over the remainder of the season.  Steamer projects that he'll make 20 appearances, 1 start and throw 18 innings over that same time.  He has made 31 appearances so far and thrown 36 innings.  It's obviously tough to make projections of pitchers who have changed roles somewhat recently.  It seems to me that role changes don't change too often in mid-season, so if you're trying to project playing time in June, you should use the role that the pitcher is in for the season.  I don't know where Steamer gets the 18 inning figure though.  You'd think that a pitcher with a history of throwing 180-200 innings as a starter, who had thrown 36 innings in less than half a season would be good for more than 18 in the remainder of the season.  You'd think that 29 more appearances and 34 more innings (discounting a bit for risk of injury) would be a pretty easy call.  The performance level question would be harder, I think.
uglyone - Tuesday, June 18 2013 @ 02:07 PM EDT (#274409) #
Johnny - I agree, looking at the numbers, Utley is kind of the perfect target for us to go after. Would likely cost us a good youngster, though.

AWeb - "I remember him as a surprising call up to fill in the rotation in a pinch, not a hotshot prospect who had dominated the minors and needed to face MLB hitters. "

Well, not sure if he was a "hotshot prospect" (though Sickels did rate him a B+ after his age 20 season), but he certainly did dominate the minors:

AA (20-21): 31.2ip, 9.4k/9, 1.4bb/9, .318babip, 0.98whip, 1.71era, 1.65fip
A+ (20-20): 62.1ip, 9.5k/9, 2.0bb/9, .257babip, 0.90whip, 2.74era, 2.57fip
A (19-20): 95.2ip, 9.7k/9, 2.5bb/9, .314babip, 1.16whip, 2.35era, 2.29fip
A- (19-19): 45.0ip, 8.8k/9, 2.4bb/9, .266babip, 1.02whip, 3.00era, 2.60fip

That's about as dominant as it gets - and more dominant than other hotshot jays prospects like Sanchez and Syndergaard.

And then his MLB line at age 21, after only 32ip higher than A+, was very solid too, with an uncharacteristically HR rate being the only concern.

MLB (21-21): 58.2ip, 7.5k/9, 3.1bb/9, .291babip, 15.1hr/fb%, 1.35whip, 4.60era, 4.48fip, 4.03xfip, 4.02siera
China fan - Tuesday, June 18 2013 @ 02:15 PM EDT (#274410) #
Uglyone a couple of tiny corrections: Wagner has options, I believe; and Jenkins is already at AAA (and getting shelled there). Also, it's unlikely that Juan Perez would slip through waivers. It's a small sample, but he has 10 strikeouts and only 3 walks (and no earned runs) in 10 major-league innings, and a WHIP of 0.80. With his cheap salary, he'd be attractive to lots of teams.

I think McGowan is going to get a long, long look in the majors. We might be jaded about the guy, but his stuff is still apparently very good. Having invested so many millions of dollars in the guy, I don't think the Jays let him go.

If Wagner indeed does have options, he's the first to get sent down to Buffalo, and the first to be brought back up.
China fan - Tuesday, June 18 2013 @ 02:18 PM EDT (#274411) #
A quick glance at BR suggests that Wagner used an option in 2011 and an option in 2013. Unless he was on somebody's 40-man roster in both 2012 and 2010, he should still have options and can be safely stashed in Buffalo when the Jays need to make room for Reyes (if they don't want to demote Kawasaki).
Hodgie - Tuesday, June 18 2013 @ 02:36 PM EDT (#274412) #
"Casey Janssen doesn't seem right to me."

That's probably because he isn't right and is still trying to recover fully from his off-season shoulder surgery. He has begun the weighted ball program in-season to help in this recovery, but at a reduced intensity until the off-season.

uglyone - Tuesday, June 18 2013 @ 02:42 PM EDT (#274413) #
I guess Juan Perez might get claimed, but even if he does, I'd guess he'd be back on waivers again at some point this year.

thanks for the correction on wagner, that makes for at least one more easy send down.

China fan - Tuesday, June 18 2013 @ 02:53 PM EDT (#274418) #
Just looking at what Gibbons is saying lately, I'd have to venture a guess that the Jays will send down Kawasaki and keep the 8-man bullpen when Reyes returns. Here's what Gibbons said yesterday -- and notice how he praises the 8-man pen and how he has specific roles defined for Wagner and Perez:

“We knew Loup was reliable and could go different roles. But now we have (Neil) Wagner. There’s a guy that can get a tough righty out late in a game. He’s filled that need. Perez can pitch multiple innings, so we’ve really got that as one of our strengths. We’ve got a lot of guys out there that can do different things. You just don’t have to rely on one or two guys every night if we get on that roll in close games, because we’ve got other guys that can do that as well. It’s just a luxury.”
John Northey - Tuesday, June 18 2013 @ 03:01 PM EDT (#274419) #
It is funny how Janssen isn't all there but is 15-1 for saves, 0.4 HR/9, 1.6 BB/9 8.7 K/9 and a 2.38 ERA, all excellent numbers.  Only once did he not start an inning, only that one time did he not pitch exactly 1 inning.  Twice pitched two days in a row, never 3 straight.  Just 3 times with more than 4 days rest (not counting game #2 of the season). 

If that is a guy who is hurting, I can't imagine how good he'd be healthy.

earlweaverfan - Tuesday, June 18 2013 @ 03:18 PM EDT (#274421) #
CF, I do think that sending Wagner down (whom the Jays seem to be extremely high on) when Reyes arrives, in favour of Kawasaki, is a very low likelihood.  The team's performance will not be disadvantaged at all when Muenori goes down, while the reverse could be true.  But let's take the rest of the dilemmas one at a time, assuming that the Jays make no trades (as yet) and that the injured players arrive more or less on schedule.  Also assume that none of our current active players gets injured (touch wood!!)  I gather the following might be a possible sequence:
  1. Morrow - he can only go to the rotation, so he either replaces Rogers, who goes to the pen, thus displacing Wagner OR he replaces Wang, who goes to Buffalo.  Let's say that Morrow replaces Rogers, who goes to the pen, sending Wagner to Buffalo
  2. Santos - he surely joins the pen once he is ready to.  Now, we have Janssen, Oliver, Loup, Cecil, Delabar, JPerez, Rogers, McGowan, and Santos.  That is at least one and possibly two, too many.  The least vulnerable to being lost is Loup, so down he goes (a big disappointment, IMHO)
  3. Luis Perez - let's say that the Jays are tough on him - he stays down in Buffalo (the Jays are trying hard to support the Bisons, so they are ok with that)
  4. Happ - let's say that the Jays are also tough on him and keep him in AAA - at this point, he will be really upset, because he believes he has proven himself to be a major league starter and he is being penalized for his injury
  5. Lawrie - back to having five players for the three positions on the left side of the infield - to me, that suggests that either Bonifacio or DeRosa get replaced, and Bonifacio can play outfield, too.  So, goodbye DeRosa OR dropping another member of the pen.  Sure, they could send Delabar down or risk the likely loss of JPerez, but that gets painful, so I bet on DeRosa
  6. Romero - here the Jays have to decide whether they have any belief in his future as a Jay.  I believe that they will try to trade him, but may first need to showcase him in the majors, to prove that he has achieved a full rebound.  I say that they do, but on that basis, Wang would have to be sent down to Buffalo.  He came to the Jays of course on the basis that he could escape AAA, but let's say we are tough on him, too.
  7. Drabek - he stays in Buffalo until he shows that he has grown into his true potential
  8. Hutchison - he stays in Buffalo until the September call-up

So, it is just feasible to pull this off in this way, while sending several pitchers to Buffalo who could be contenders for slots in most other major league teams.  This is a hard message to send to several players who may have done nothing to deserve it.

On top of this, if the rotation stays strong, retaining 8 members of the pen would be a waste of one roster position, even two, and some of the relievers might lose their edge if not used sufficiently.

So, let's trade! 

China fan - Tuesday, June 18 2013 @ 03:27 PM EDT (#274423) #
We should just have a Batter's Box poll: when Reyes returns to the lineup next week, should the Jays demote Kawasaki or Wagner or Perez? Those are the only real options, barring an injury, in my view.

It would be nice to keep Kawasaki around, but really he doesn't add any extra weapon to the bench. He's an injury replacement, and not much else, unfortunately. He adds a little bit of flexibility to the infield if the Jays want to use Davis to pinch-hit for Izturis or Bonifacio in the late innings, but there aren't very many other scenarios where you'd need Kawasaki, as long as Reyes is healthy. So I think I'd vote for demoting Kawasaki and keeping the 8-man bullpen. Wagner has been very useful and certainly deserves a longer look, and Perez is useful for multiple innings in a blow-out game. Why not keep both of them?
ogator - Tuesday, June 18 2013 @ 03:30 PM EDT (#274424) #
One of my all time favourite Blue Jay front office quotations comes from none other than Gord Ash, who when asked about an under-performing veteran said, "this is not a benevolence society." Options shmoptions, let's keep the best 25 available players. If Morrow can't get guys out in Dunedin, then why does he get a rotation spot? If Wagner is overpowering, why does he get sent down? The object is to win, not to protect assets. Trades may be one way to turn surplus talent into needed talent--a 2B man perhaps? But I will scream loudly and shrilly and in a very unpleasant way, if more talented players get sent down just because they happen to be the guy(s) with option(s).
Ryan Day - Tuesday, June 18 2013 @ 03:35 PM EDT (#274425) #
Demoting Bonifacio is the way to go. He's been awful all year, and his best-case scenario is still just something like his 2011 season - pretty good, but not great. If someone wants to claim a mediocre 2b with great speed and absolutely no clue at the plate, so be it.

Kawasaki doesn't have Bonifacio's raw tools, but at least he has a basic understanding of how to play baseball.
China fan - Tuesday, June 18 2013 @ 03:41 PM EDT (#274426) #
"....let's keep the best 25 available players...."

Agreed. That's why Aaron Loup has never been in danger of demotion this year, even though he has options. The Jays have always preferred to keep him on the major-league team, because he's one of their best relievers. Wagner might be moving into that same category -- someone who stays in the bullpen despite having options -- although it's a little too early to say. And similarly, the same logic explains why Romero has only pitched two games for the Jays this year, despite his all-star pedigree. He's clearly not one of the best 25 players, so he's been demoted twice this year.

Morrow becomes a tougher dilemma. What if Rogers and Wang continue their stellar performances? If they continue to pitch for 7 innings per game, allowing only 2 or 3 runs, it becomes extremely difficult to take them out of the rotation, whether Morrow is available or not. In that scenario, I wonder if the Jays just keep Morrow on a longer rehab assignment, working on every possible kink in NH or Buffalo until someone on the major-league rotation is injured or seriously falters.
Lylemcr - Tuesday, June 18 2013 @ 03:44 PM EDT (#274427) #

I think Kawasaki goes down.  It is just a numbers game.  Bonafacio provides value in many ways.  Izturis and Kawasaki both play infield only, light hitters with alright speed.  I can't see how you keep both.  I would like to see Kawasaki stay, but I can't see it happening. I also think he won't be as upset from the demotion.

DeRosa provides value on the bench (they didn't get him only for his bat).  I don't see him going anywhere. 

Paul D - Tuesday, June 18 2013 @ 03:47 PM EDT (#274428) #
I could see Dickey getting a 15 day DL stint to rest his arm and to allow Morrow back on the team.
Mike Green - Tuesday, June 18 2013 @ 03:58 PM EDT (#274431) #
Juan Perez is the 4th lefty in the pen and is 34 years old with a career long battle for control. If the club has to decide which player is put on waivers when Reyes returns, there are a couple of good options including Perez.  A trade before that would make sense. 
hypobole - Tuesday, June 18 2013 @ 04:19 PM EDT (#274436) #
Why does Dickey's arm need 15 days off?
Ryan Day - Tuesday, June 18 2013 @ 04:21 PM EDT (#274438) #
Apparently Morrow had a "setback" in his start last night. Doesn't appear he will be back in Toronto any time soon.
Paul D - Tuesday, June 18 2013 @ 04:37 PM EDT (#274441) #
Why does Dickey's arm need 15 days off? Because he's apparently taking it easy and not throwing as hard as he did last year. See here: http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/tracking-r-a-dickeys-knuckleball/
Mike Green - Tuesday, June 18 2013 @ 04:45 PM EDT (#274442) #
It wouldn't surprise me if Dickey makes a DL trip around the All-Star break, and that Morrow (or perhaps Happ) return at that time.  It looks like Esmil Rogers and Chien-Ming Wang will be getting a longer look, and there is nothing wrong with that. 
92-93 - Tuesday, June 18 2013 @ 05:08 PM EDT (#274445) #
It would surprise me, only in light of what RA Dickey has been insisting about his health the last couple of weeks.
92-93 - Tuesday, June 18 2013 @ 05:11 PM EDT (#274447) #
"So I think I'd vote for demoting Kawasaki and keeping the 8-man bullpen. Wagner has been very useful and certainly deserves a longer look, and Perez is useful for multiple innings in a blow-out game. Why not keep both of them?"

Because carrying a 3 man bench, especially when Melky can't move, is really silly when your starters are routinely going 6 innings.
China fan - Tuesday, June 18 2013 @ 05:31 PM EDT (#274449) #
The problem is that nothing is "routine" on this team. Expecting a 6-inning start from every rotation starter is a probable path to frequent disappointment and an unhealthy bullpen workload.

The debate about the 8-man is impossible to resolve, but I continue to be unimpressed by the value of 4 late-inning bench players, compared to the flexibility of having more pitching options and more match-up advantages from the bullpen.
jerjapan - Tuesday, June 18 2013 @ 05:35 PM EDT (#274451) #
Luis Perez is basically replacement level. I'm not sure, if need be, that they don't try to slip him off the 40.   I disagree with this ... a hard throwing lefty, a variety of ptiches, strong numbers in the minors until the minefield of Vegas, he really looked like a solid lefty option last year until the injury.  If he seems healthy and is throwing well, they will demote Juan Perez to take a look at Luis.    I think Oliver can bring back value and is essentially redundant, so my preference would be shopping him, demoting Wagner and then considering who to try and slip through waivers. 
John Northey - Tuesday, June 18 2013 @ 06:17 PM EDT (#274453) #
The battle of the Perez' is interesting...
Juan: 5 games, 3 with leverage of 1.9+ (extremely high), one at 1.01 (average) and one at 0.04 (7-0 lead at the time).  Clearly the manager has a lot of confidence in him, his negative WPA's were the low leverage game and one of the high ones (he lost the lead on an unearned run).
Luis: 2012: 8 high leverage (1.5+), 5 average (0.75 to 1.25), 22 low (below 0.75) with 15 of those extremely low (0.25 or less).  Clearly he wasn't trusted by last years manager.

So, with Gibbons here this year it is hard to say what he'd think of Luis Perez.  He hasn't seen him pitch since joining the Jays so I suspect he'd be fine with Luis going to AAA if he still has options, and even if he doesn't I doubt many clubs would jump to take a guy coming off Tommy John with a career 96 ERA+ as a reliever who wasn't trusted often by his last manager.
92-93 - Tuesday, June 18 2013 @ 11:06 PM EDT (#274463) #
"The problem is that nothing is "routine" on this team. Expecting a 6-inning start from every rotation starter is a probable path to frequent disappointment and an unhealthy bullpen workload."

Buffalo is around the corner. If the circumstances dictate it, you could always call up an 8th reliever. Juan Perez had made two appearances in over 2 weeks before last night, when he was brought in not because other guys were being worked hard but because Perez himself was desperate for action.

"The debate about the 8-man is impossible to resolve, but I continue to be unimpressed by the value of 4 late-inning bench players"

When Melky turned a double into a single today in the 5th, I was thinking how with a normal sized bench and a 4-0 lead it would make a lot of sense to pull Cabrera right there, hoping to pick up that 5th run and improving your defense for four innings. There would be little ways for Gibbons to improve the team each game that for me would outweigh the benefit of a sporadically used 8th reliever who can be called up if ever needed.
Thomas - Wednesday, June 19 2013 @ 12:31 AM EDT (#274466) #
"The problem is that nothing is "routine" on this team. Expecting a 6-inning start from every rotation starter is a probable path to frequent disappointment and an unhealthy bullpen workload.

A team doesn't need 6 innings from every starter in order to still have a healthy bullpen workload with 7 relievers. Even if there are a couple of relievers that the team would prefer not to use on consecutive days.

Furthermore, the Jays have been getting at least 6 innings most of the time from their big two/three starters (depending on Johnson's health). Since the beginning of May, the Jays have got at least 6 innings from the starter in 18 of 21 games started by Dickey, Buerhle or Johnson. In the three games where they did not they got 5, 5 and 5.2 innings from the starter. While Dickey may not be fully healthy (and if he is not but the team does not want to DL him that could change the calculus) and Rogers and Wang are wild cards (although pitching like anything but right now), it doesn't seem to me like this is a team that needs to carry 8 relievers when Reyes returns, particularly given Cabrera's clearly not at full health.

The starters will go through a rough stretch again at some point this season, but I'd rather the team address that with fresh arms at the time than keep an 8th reliever around.

bpoz - Wednesday, June 19 2013 @ 12:23 PM EDT (#274491) #
I believe Bonifacio has 1 option left. If correct, I send him down to work on his game.
92-93 - Wednesday, June 19 2013 @ 12:30 PM EDT (#274495) #
Bonifacio is out of options.
uglyone - Wednesday, June 19 2013 @ 12:47 PM EDT (#274497) #
I don't mind the extra reliever at the moment, as our main relievers have been overworked a bit, but carrying an 8th reliever should obviously be a shortterm thing.

The elephant in the room, of course, is McGowan. He's here, he's out of options, he probably didn't earn a callup, and the manager seems scared to use him.
92-93 - Wednesday, June 19 2013 @ 01:19 PM EDT (#274507) #
"as our main relievers have been overworked a bit"

It's tough to accept this when you see Oliver, Loup, and Delabar come into a 5/6 run game because they need work. If it's true, Gibbons is doing a poor job managing the 8 relievers he has here. Since I don't believe that to be the case I'm in favour of a normal (7 is now normal unfortunately) sized bullpen.
Game Thread — 6/17 vs. Colorado | 70 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.