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Let's have a series thread anyway. After all, it's not every day the opposition is having an even lousier year than Our Guys.


Baseball is baseball and I'm never going to dislike it or abandon it - but as the game shifts towards the Three True Outcomes I'm getting less and less entertainment out of it. And somehow, modern strategy has find a way to weaponize mediocrity, as pitchers who wouldn't have been good enough to make a roster a generation ago march endlessly out of the bullpen to throw fifteen pitches as hard as they can.

Grumble, grumble, grumble went the cranky old man. But can't somebody put a ball in play once in a while? Now that we're finally making some progress in understanding defense...
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mendocino - Saturday, July 28 2018 @ 07:13 PM EDT (#362617) #
https://twitter.com/Ken_Rosenthal/status/1023302548021825537

Ken Rosenthal

@Ken_Rosenthal

Among RPs known or believed to be in play (partial list):

CIN: Iglesias, Hernandez, Hughes

CWS: Avilan, Cedeno

LAA: Parker, Alvarez

MIA: Barraclough, Conley, Ziegler

MIN: Rodney

SD: Stammen, Yates

STL: Norris

TB: Romo

TEX: Kela, Diekman, Leclerc

TOR: Clippard, Osuna

1:21 PM - 28 Jul 2018
dan gordon - Saturday, July 28 2018 @ 08:06 PM EDT (#362619) #
That's quite a remarkable accomplishment by Gurriel. First rookie since Shoeless Joe Jackson in 1911 to have 10 multi-hit games in a row. Thank about how many rookies there have been in mlb since then.
Magpie - Saturday, July 28 2018 @ 08:35 PM EDT (#362623) #
Thank about how many rookies there have been in mlb since then.

Well, Gurriel's debut back in April made him 19,216th person to play major league baseball. Long time Cleveland catcher (and later manager of Detroit's 1945 WS champs) Steve O'Neill made his major league debut about a month after Jackson's 10 game streak ended in August 1911. O'Neill is listed as the 3,594th person to play in the majors.

So... roughly 15,600 people have come to the majors between Shoeless Joe and Gurriel Jr. Some of them were pretty good.
ayjackson - Saturday, July 28 2018 @ 09:22 PM EDT (#362624) #
Morales' OPS for July going into tonight was 1.074.

I mean...is it possible he gets moved? How much salary would they eat? 75%?
dan gordon - Saturday, July 28 2018 @ 11:09 PM EDT (#362631) #
Salary aside, there isn't much of a market for Kendrys - it would pretty much have to be an AL team, and a contender. How many of those need a DH? If there was a market for him, I think they probably could trade him, given how well he's hitting, and probably wouldn't have to eat as much as 75%. Now if JD Martinez, or Nelson Cruz, or somebody like that gets injured, suddenly there's a market for him.
Glevin - Sunday, July 29 2018 @ 01:23 AM EDT (#362633) #
Very odd to me how cheap the Yanks are getting. I understand that prospect value has gone way up but they are in a place where they can win and going after Happ and Voit are not difference making moves. Similarly, the Phillies seem not to care at all for defensive positions. They got Santana to move Hoskins to LF and now they needed a SS and got Asdrubal who can't really play there.
Richard S.S. - Sunday, July 29 2018 @ 03:31 AM EDT (#362635) #
There is supposed to be a decent Free Agent list this Offseason, which Teams are saving for. This Trade Deadline is different. Itís not who they acquire, itís how much they cost.

The Yankees are filling their holes as best they can. 25-man and 40-Man Roster Space is just as important. Go to www.riveraveblues.com and read why they do what they do.
scottt - Sunday, July 29 2018 @ 06:24 AM EDT (#362636) #
Biggest target for Morales would be the Judgeless Yankees.
However, I'm inclined to believe Morales will keep hitting and be a positive next year.

scottt - Sunday, July 29 2018 @ 06:33 AM EDT (#362637) #
Not really. The Yanks tool all of Happ's tab. They didn't have to.
Happ was the best pitcher available and starting pitching is the Yankees' weakness. They did very well there.

Voit was a move made to sign Osiel Rodriguez, one of the best international pitching prospect available.
That's probably not a bad move long term.

scottt - Sunday, July 29 2018 @ 06:40 AM EDT (#362638) #
I totally understand where the Yankees are.
Yet, I'm surprised so many teams aren't trying harder to improve.
The Nationals have had a whole behind the dish all year.

Mike Green - Sunday, July 29 2018 @ 07:38 AM EDT (#362639) #
Gurriel Jr. is a very interesting hitter.  Both homers on Friday night were on pitches outside the strike zone, one down and one up.  Both were JEs, but still. 

I'm taking a break from BB and social media for the next few months.  The rest of summer in Toronto was cancelled by the Premier, and I've got work to do.  I would much rather be watching baseball to tell the truth. 
ayjackson - Sunday, July 29 2018 @ 09:06 AM EDT (#362640) #
Well that's unfortunate Mike. You are a practicing lawyer, right? Constitutional law? ;)
85bluejay - Sunday, July 29 2018 @ 11:29 AM EDT (#362644) #
Really like that the Yankees are clearing out guys that they may not be able to protect this winter in trades and International bonus pool money - have been disappointed that the jays haven't done more of this.
scottt - Sunday, July 29 2018 @ 11:54 AM EDT (#362646) #
Apart from the infield glut, which is going to be a recurring problem as Guerrero, Bichette, Biggio, etc graduate, the Jays don't have much to clear. Maile? I'd like to move Pillar, but he's probably too popular.

I'm not sure what the Yanks will do over the winter. Prospects have risen and the biggest need is now starting pitching, but I don't see many aces on the free agent markets. Kershaw?  Pomeranz? Gio Gonzalez? Lots of closers though.

hypobole - Sunday, July 29 2018 @ 01:26 PM EDT (#362648) #
What's happening in Buffalo? McKinney pinch hit for Pompey in the 2nd, Gift pinch hit for Urshela in the 3rd.
85bluejay - Sunday, July 29 2018 @ 01:39 PM EDT (#362649) #
Hopefully it means that Granderson & Solarte are on the move.
Richard S.S. - Sunday, July 29 2018 @ 01:57 PM EDT (#362650) #
Ryan Borucki is better than expected. With his two good pitches and a third being a work in progress, I think heís a #2/#3 Starter right now. If pitch number three becomes an effective pitch, is he a #1/#2 Starter?
cybercavalier - Sunday, July 29 2018 @ 02:29 PM EDT (#362652) #
Salary aside, there isn't much of a market for Kendrys - it would pretty much have to be an AL team, and a contender. How many of those need a DH? If there was a market for him, I think they probably could trade him, given how well he's hitting, and probably wouldn't have to eat as much as 75%. (dan gordon, July 28 2018 @ 11:09 PM EDT)
How about international market?
On Ryan Borucki, fangraphs shows that he pitches fastballs almost two thirds of the time, changeups and sliders the other one thirds, and more changeups than sliders. MLB gameday registered some fastball as sinkers. So let us assume he throws fastballs and sinkers, changeups and sliders. Borucki's pitches are hit when they break in and up, and producing swinging strikes when down. All pitches except two are fastball and sinkers. So is his pitching success this match relying on location?
greenfrog - Sunday, July 29 2018 @ 04:24 PM EDT (#362655) #
Another multi-hit game for Gurriel. Now hitting .317/.336/.500 (as of the eighth inning of today's game).
mathesond - Sunday, July 29 2018 @ 04:47 PM EDT (#362656) #
Nice at bat & baserunning from Drury to break a ninth-inning tie.
scottt - Sunday, July 29 2018 @ 04:59 PM EDT (#362657) #
Sad way to end the streak. Brings back bad memories.
hypobole - Sunday, July 29 2018 @ 05:00 PM EDT (#362658) #
annus horribilis
greenfrog - Sunday, July 29 2018 @ 05:01 PM EDT (#362659) #
Gurriel is going to have a short career if the Jays keep running him out there without properly coaching him on how to run the bases.
BlueJayWay - Sunday, July 29 2018 @ 05:01 PM EDT (#362660) #
Gurriel comes out of the game with an injury that looked terrible at first, but he did walk off on it.
Interestingly, Martin comes into the game on Travis.
Shoeless Joe - Sunday, July 29 2018 @ 05:11 PM EDT (#362661) #
Why can't Jays fans have nice things?
Richard S.S. - Sunday, July 29 2018 @ 05:16 PM EDT (#362662) #
They do, not everyone appreciates it.
SK in NJ - Sunday, July 29 2018 @ 05:18 PM EDT (#362663) #
Hope Gurriel is okay. He's one of the few reasons to even watch the Jays the rest of the way. Hopefully it is not serious.
BlueJayWay - Sunday, July 29 2018 @ 05:21 PM EDT (#362664) #
Should have said Martin came into the game *instead of* Travis.
Some speculation on twitter if it means Travis is being traded or just hurt.
Gerry - Sunday, July 29 2018 @ 06:50 PM EDT (#362666) #
Travis has a sore back.
John Northey - Sunday, July 29 2018 @ 07:03 PM EDT (#362667) #
85bluejay - Sunday, July 29 2018 @ 09:39 PM EDT (#362669) #
Any news on why Pompey & Urshela were removed from the Bisons game today - lack of effort (apparently a favourite of the Bisons manager),injury,off to Oakland?
cybercavalier - Sunday, July 29 2018 @ 10:13 PM EDT (#362670) #
Let Mike Wilner answer you...

https://twitter.com/Wilnerness590/status/1023703881925066752

https://twitter.com/Wilnerness590/status/1023659354233495554
Parker - Sunday, July 29 2018 @ 11:12 PM EDT (#362673) #
Hey, does anyone know what's going on with uglyone? I know we've had our differences, but man, I kinda miss him.
John Northey - Sunday, July 29 2018 @ 11:34 PM EDT (#362674) #
Good that the xrays were negative - no breaks.  Via Wilner - "He has a left knee contusion and left ankle sprain, and will have an MRI in Oakland."  DL seems likely he says.  Probably smart if the Jays do that - give him a week and a half to recover fully rather than push it.

Also for Gurriel - "According to @ESPNStatsInfo, six players who debuted since 1900 had 11 game multi-hit streaks before Lourdes Gurriel, Jr. notched his 11th. Five of them are in the Hall of Fame, and the sixth is Shoeless Joe Jackson."  Sweet.  I liked the signing at the time and this just makes it seem better.  Lets hope the Jays play it safe and let him recover to keep him healthy.  That 7 year $22 mil deal looks really good now.  Signed through 2023 with arbitration for 2024 before free agency in the winter of 2024/25.  Found the thread from when he signed - Morales (who used the same agency) signed at the same time.  What is funny is how little discussion it had in that thread and the next few that came up.  You'd think signing maybe the top international free agent for so little would've got us all more excited at the time.  Guess we were spoiled with the playoff appearances.
dan gordon - Monday, July 30 2018 @ 02:01 AM EDT (#362675) #
What a relief that Gurriel's injury doesn't seem too serious. There's been so much bad news about injuries for Jays' players this season and last....

Gurriel is now just 2 games short of the all time mlb record of 13 straight games with 2+ hits, held by arguably the best hitting 2nd basemen in history, Rogers Hornsby, 95 years ago. That's amazing that every other player who has had 11 in a row is a hall of famer (or would be if not for the WS scandal). When you're challenging a record that has stood for 95 years, you know you're really doing something amazing. Frankly, I'm surprised there hasn't been more talk about it in the media. BTW, if you're not familiar with Hornsby, have a look at his stats. He was a phenomenal hitter - a power hitter who also hit over .400 in 3 different seasons, and had 6 other seasons where he hit over .360. Career OPS over 1.000.
Petey Baseball - Monday, July 30 2018 @ 06:24 AM EDT (#362677) #
I don't have much to base this on, although it seems most Jays fans, myself definitely included,have wanted him gone at some point in the last few years....but could this trade deadline be time the team parted ways with Kevin Pillar? Haven't done my homework to see who would match up in trade; it could be a one for one challenge trade where another club gave up an arm or a bat in exchange for Pillar's flashy defense and streaky bat (and for all of our griping, he's pretty damn durable). I don't know, just have a feeling.

It wouldn't be dumb from the Jays side, because to me Grichuk is basically Pillar at the plate with more power and hopefully, a potential for more contact and plate discipline and that jazz. Defensively, not sure what the numbers are on Grichuk, but he looks solid if not spectacular out there,

Long term, the Jays still have Alford and hopefully they haven't given up on Pompey.

I dunno.
Petey Baseball - Monday, July 30 2018 @ 06:28 AM EDT (#362678) #
Interesting enough, earlier this week Pompey moved over .300 with a .845 OPS in AAA for the season.
Petey Baseball - Monday, July 30 2018 @ 06:30 AM EDT (#362679) #
And of course, I forgot to mention Jonathan Davis as quality depth as well.
scottt - Monday, July 30 2018 @ 06:51 AM EDT (#362681) #
Hopefuly Ugly is just on vacation somewhere.
scottt - Monday, July 30 2018 @ 06:56 AM EDT (#362682) #
i'd like to see Pompey as 4th outfielder, pinch runner, defensive replacement. He should have been up a long time ago.
It's up to Alford to push Pillar out. He hasn't done that yet.

whiterasta80 - Monday, July 30 2018 @ 07:13 AM EDT (#362683) #
Gurriel has been a pleasant surprise for sure. Does the injury disqualify him from the record officially or does he just pick up where he left off on return? If so they should pick their spot carefully.

Hornsby is good company, no doubt, but let me advocate for Nap Lajoie in the greatest second baseman debate. Led the league in batting 5x (while Ty Cobb was active), plus defensive player, good runner, and he played through age 41 (Hornsby was done by 33 or 35 if you value the dead cat bounce). Hornsby was also aided by the change in the ball. Not that it should enter the debate, but nap was also loved so much that the team was renamed after him for a while. Hornsby was, well, not loved.

I could get behind the Toronto Lourdes...
lexomatic - Monday, July 30 2018 @ 08:06 AM EDT (#362684) #
From what I remember from reading about other records, it's games played, so a gap in games played still counts. I don't know official rules.
James W - Monday, July 30 2018 @ 08:10 AM EDT (#362685) #
Gurriel has already missed 3 games during this streak.
ComebyDeanChance - Monday, July 30 2018 @ 09:10 AM EDT (#362688) #
Hornsby is good company, no doubt, but let me advocate for Nap Lajoie in the greatest second baseman debate.

Those are two great choices for sure. Here are a couple of others. I generally hate "Bill James said" arguments because rather than providing the origin for an idea they often are made as though it's conclusive authority. Having said that, I think it was the 1983 Abstract where James wrote that the two greatest second baseman of all time were, chronologically, Charlie Gehringer and Joe Morgan. I got to see the one of them and it's hard for me to imagine a better baseball player than Joe Morgan.
SK in NJ - Monday, July 30 2018 @ 09:18 AM EDT (#362689) #
Rosenthal is reporting that "rivals executives say Blue Jays are trying to trade Roberto Osuna".

If the Jays get fair value then I have no problem with this, but if it's a "Reds trade Chapman to the Yankees" type of scenario, then no thanks.
ComebyDeanChance - Monday, July 30 2018 @ 09:33 AM EDT (#362690) #
Lexomatic you're absolutely correct. Baseball has a specific rule for this in regards to hitting streaks. Rule 10.23(b) of the Official Rules, states: ďa playerís individual consecutive-game hitting streak shall be determined by the consecutive games in which such player appears and is not determined by his clubís games.Ē
dalimon5 - Monday, July 30 2018 @ 09:37 AM EDT (#362691) #
If guerriel returns after injury and breaks the recod it will be even more impressive because of the time off and how it affects timing. Big leaguers would say you can't get enough reps in simulated or minor league games to prepare to hit 500avg or better in your first two games back.

Pillar won't be traded unless it's in the off-season because he's injured. I don't see a lot of teams being interested since he has major flaws in his hit tool and his defensive value is declining with age. Most teams have someone in their system if not already on their team that is a solid defensive CF without the hit tool.
rpriske - Monday, July 30 2018 @ 09:43 AM EDT (#362692) #
If the Jays trade Osuna it will be good news, even if all they get is a low-level pseudo prospect.



ComebyDeanChance - Monday, July 30 2018 @ 09:44 AM EDT (#362693) #
SK, I think the issue with Osuna may be more complex. I suspect the reason that he is contesting the assault charge is to avoid a criminal record which would prevent him from crossing the border. Right now he has work visas in both the US and Canada. If he can't cross into Canada then he's in a similar position to the catcher from Oakland with a gun charge who couldn't cross into Canada. If he can't cross into the US his career is finished. I think there may be a border crossing issue involved (I don't do immigration law or criminal law, so I'm not pretending expertise). It may be his only case scenario is to be traded to a US team before his conviction, which may not result in revocation of his US visa but may make him ineligible to cross the border.

Otherwise it makes little sense for Osuna to be contesting this. A trial for a 230 lb guy who hit his partner is presumably something he would otherwise avoid.
Chuck - Monday, July 30 2018 @ 09:48 AM EDT (#362694) #
it's hard for me to imagine a better baseball player than Joe Morgan.

Hear hear. Morgan was a ridiculously over-the-top talent who, despite 2 MVPs, was still not adequately lauded in his time. WAR, of course, had not yet been invented, but he was worth 48 during his 5-year peak from ages 28 to 32.

As someone getting familiarized with Strat-O-Matic at the time, seeing Joe Morgan's card just screamed out TALENT. His card was loaded with on-base possibilities (so walks were seen as valuable to Strat players long before the general public caught on). He had power. He had speed and was a high percentage base stealer. And he was a top shelf defender.

bpoz - Monday, July 30 2018 @ 09:50 AM EDT (#362695) #
We will see what happens CDC. A NL West team that hardly ever visits Canada would solve any border crossing issue.
Cracka - Monday, July 30 2018 @ 09:52 AM EDT (#362696) #
It's probably like the Chapman trade. And it may be influenced by ownership. There will likely be a few fans that won't buy tickets if Osuna returns in 2018... but that's nothing compared to the potential risk to the Rogers media brands if a twitter mob starts a boycott over Osuna's ongoing employment. There are still more court dates to come, and potentially a trial if a peace bond cannot be negotiated... things could get very messy.

We'll be lucky to get "50 cents on the dollar" in return for him; although I bet there are win-now teams that are very interested -- Astros being the most obvious. We could add Solarte and Granderson to the package; and take whatever we can get back.
Chuck - Monday, July 30 2018 @ 10:27 AM EDT (#362697) #
A package of Osuna, Granderson and Diaz would go a long way to addressing some Astro needs: a reliable reliever, a complementary outfielder and a backup middle infielder (what with both Altuve and Correa on the DL).

It would leave the Jays without a SS, but what the hell. The infield is totally in flux at the moment and will only get fluxier with any combination of Donaldson, Tulowitzki and Guerrero destined to come sooner, later or never.

rpriske - Monday, July 30 2018 @ 10:32 AM EDT (#362698) #
Do you think we could get Trent Thornton our of Houston?
Shoeless Joe - Monday, July 30 2018 @ 10:36 AM EDT (#362699) #
I don't think an Osuna trade is going to happen in the next few days. There is just too much uncertainty.

Marlow - Monday, July 30 2018 @ 10:39 AM EDT (#362700) #
I tend to agree with Cracka. The BJ are not going to get much for Osuna. The people at Rogers are afraid of bad publicity. Too bad the owners are interfering so much.

I wish they would just give Shapiro/Atkins free rein on the baseball operations.
Spifficus - Monday, July 30 2018 @ 10:50 AM EDT (#362701) #
I'm with Shoeless on this one - the ongoing trial adds too much uncertainty. If that were somehow magically dealt with before tomorrow, that would change things, and then teams would have the needed information at their disposal Performance-wise, Osuna is a known quantity, so they wouldn't need to really see him pitch or anything.
hypobole - Monday, July 30 2018 @ 10:55 AM EDT (#362702) #
CDC does have a point, because if there will end up being a border crossing issue, then Osuna isn't even worth 50 cents on the dollar if he stays in a Jays uniform, no matter what Rogers thinks.

Details of the alleged assault have been pretty well non-existent, so whether this is a baseball or corporate decision to seek a trade is pure speculation without fact.
bpoz - Monday, July 30 2018 @ 10:56 AM EDT (#362703) #
The question is, do the FO and ownership know, discussed, and decided on the possibles of Osuna's future with the Jays? Until a decision is made Osuna has minor league options. This buys time to make a clear decision. They also don't have to tell anyone anything.
Chuck - Monday, July 30 2018 @ 10:56 AM EDT (#362704) #
Oh, I agree about Osuna. On paper, the Jays line up well for the Astros. But not so much in real life. (These forums aren't expected to have much to do with real life, right? That would be quite limiting.)
PeterG - Monday, July 30 2018 @ 10:59 AM EDT (#362705) #
How about Osuna to Houston for Ken Giles and a good prospect? He is eligible to pitch in playoffs.

Or if not trading him now, how about optioning him to Buffalo for month of August. He has remaining options so that might work. Send him to Arizona Fall league or winter ball for a further look and trade him in off season. I agree that it will be difficult to bring him to TO.
Petey Baseball - Monday, July 30 2018 @ 11:14 AM EDT (#362706) #
Very happy to see the Jays (if the report is true, and from Rosenthal it almost always is) moving on from Osuna. While rehabilitation and and healing to all parties involved is the desired outcome, it's clear that even if the details of the assault never see the light of day, it's a public relations situation the Jays (very understandably) don't want looming over the organization.

AWeb - Monday, July 30 2018 @ 11:14 AM EDT (#362707) #
I think picking Morgan over Hornsby as the best 2B comes entirely down to time-lining differences. I think that's fair to do, given their careers came before and after the most important time-lining "event" (colour barrier), but I'll argue for Hornsby, who has a claim as a top-5 position player if you like peak over career.

Hornsby from age 21-33 (1917-1929) was a 10-win player when playing (BBREF has him at 9.8WAR/650PA over 8025 PAs, the list with better stretches that long by this measure is basically Bonds, Ruth, and Mays). 6 years in a row he lead the league in ALL of BA/OBP/SLG, hitting .397/.467/.666 over that time, which is absurd. Hornsby was also done as a useful player after he turned 35, which makes him unusual for a top-level great.

Trading Osuna, as has always been the case, makes perfect sense if they get a reasonable return. Given how few baseball players have actually had border-crossing issues, I can't imagine that's a serious concern unless his crime was somehow an order of magnitude worse than prior, similar, instances by other players. As mentioned, we don't really have any details, and these things tend to get resolved before a jury finding on the worst charges occurs.
85bluejay - Monday, July 30 2018 @ 11:15 AM EDT (#362708) #
As I mentioned when the incident occured, this is the outcome I expected.
85bluejay - Monday, July 30 2018 @ 11:21 AM EDT (#362709) #
Good call PeterG - that's a deal I was thinking about.
Thomas - Monday, July 30 2018 @ 12:29 PM EDT (#362713) #
I don't think a Giles deal is likely, but it has more appeal than I thought initially, despite Giles' struggles this year and his reputation of being a difficult personality.

Giles' underlying numbers this year don't look significantly different from his more successful seasons with Philly and Houston. He has the same number of years of team control as Osuna. He's probably worn out his welcome in Houston with his struggles last postseason and his issues with management this year, so if Houston wanted to deal him, he's not at the peak of his value.

It's an interesting idea that is more appealing than I initially thought and would align with management's aim that this will be a shorter rebuild than an extended one. I don't love targeting relievers with mid-7-figure salaries, but Houston would be looking for salary relief if they are moving on from Giles and that may also entice them to give more in the deal.

I don't think Toronto would do it straight up and I'm not at all convinced Houston would add a real prospect to the deal to get Osuna, given his legal issues, which is probably where it would break down.
ComebyDeanChance - Monday, July 30 2018 @ 12:36 PM EDT (#362717) #
Spifficus, I don't disagree that there's a ton of uncertainty that makes the situation extremely hard to deal with. But that uncertainty may well work in favour of a move as opposed to militating against one. Here's what mlbtraderumors is saying today:

"A criminal conviction could result in additional time away from the field and/or complications in his ability to travel with a team." (emphasis added)

If it's uncertain whether he'll be able to cross the border after a conviction, in which case his career is over if he's still a Blue Jay, then doesn't that make a trade more, rather than less, likely? Also, one of the factors I suspect the FO is considering is not just whether they have a worthless asset the day a conviction registers, but also whether a young man's career in baseball is over.

I imagine that Mark Shapiro has received very good legal advice on what the likely scenarios are, both in respect of the likelihood of a conviction and the possible consequences of a conviction on Osuna's career. All he's missing now is the predictable internet abuse for doing the 'wrong' thing, whatever happens.
scottt - Monday, July 30 2018 @ 01:01 PM EDT (#362718) #
Osuna is a Mexican, not an American.
I'm not really sure how a criminal conviction in Canada would affect his work visa.
His lawyer is basically asking the crown to drop the charges.
We really need to see how that plays out.

Cracka - Monday, July 30 2018 @ 01:28 PM EDT (#362720) #
Osuna needs two work permits: his employer-specific Canadian work permit (allowing him to work & reside in Canada), and a P1 Visa for US travel.

In this case, his P1 Visa is likely not at risk and he should be able to continue to work in the US, even if he pleads guilty or is convicted of the charges... as long as the conviction is for something similar to a "common assault".

His Canadian work permit is at risk if he pleads or is found guilty. Ultimately, he'll likely get a waiver and be OK... there are several examples of CFL players with foreign convictions before coming to Canada (Johnny Manziel).

In both cases, nothing is certain and it would be up to the immigration officials to decide if any conviction would prevent him from entering the country. He's currently allowed in the US and therefore has no problem staying in the country at least for the rest of the season (though he probably needs to attend court at some point).
Spifficus - Monday, July 30 2018 @ 01:37 PM EDT (#362721) #
CBDC, I have no doubt that these would cause the Jays to want to trade him more, but those are the factors that could limit the buyer pool to somewhere in the range of zero. That and not knowing what you're getting yourself into from a PR standpoint. I bet teams would bite the bullit on one of the two risks, but maybe not both.

I mean, if we're talking a token/non-prospect return, someone might roll those dice, but then why wouldn't the Jays hang onto him and just release him if things break bad (either legally or PR-wise)?
Magpie - Monday, July 30 2018 @ 04:09 PM EDT (#362725) #
The knock on Hornsby was always his defense. It's why he ended up at second base after coming up playing shortstop and third base (believe it or not, one hundred years ago third base was regarded - probably rightly - as the more crucial defensive position.)

I'd have to with Morgan myself, but the names Eddie Collins and Jackie Robinson have to come up in any discussion of greatest second basemen ever. Jackie's career was short, but that wasn't his fault.
Magpie - Monday, July 30 2018 @ 04:12 PM EDT (#362726) #
The knock on Hornsby was always his defense.

That, and he was an enormous pain in the ass.
dan gordon - Monday, July 30 2018 @ 04:20 PM EDT (#362727) #
For those interested, Bill James had Morgan as #1 for peak value, and Collins #1 for career value in his Historical Abstract (great book). Hornsby was 3 and 4 respectively. Hitting-wise, it's hard to argue against Hornsby, but his fielding was poor, and he was apparently a very difficult teammate. James had a rather complex stat he used in the book called offensive won-loss record, and Hornsby's was best of any 2nd baseman. It's the other aspects of the game where others, like Morgan, Collins, Lajoie were superior.
Chuck - Monday, July 30 2018 @ 04:54 PM EDT (#362728) #
It's the other aspects of the game where others, like Morgan, Collins, Lajoie were superior.

Imagine the shock to this native Montrealer's ears when I first heard the Americanized pronunciation of Lajoie. Couldn't be worse than Belanger, I thought. I was wrong.

Marlow - Monday, July 30 2018 @ 04:59 PM EDT (#362729) #
Bob Nightengale on twitter says the Blue Jays have been shopping Osuna for a few weeks. No one is touching him because of the fear of the unknown. So he is likely still going to be part of the Blue Jays after the July 31 trade deadline.
John Northey - Monday, July 30 2018 @ 05:05 PM EDT (#362730) #
Osuna's price will be lower than ideal right now.  The Jays don't need to trade him but it would be a good idea if they could and get value.  Teams right now are preparing for the playoffs and it has been shown that a deep bullpen can be a big difference maker in the playoffs.  Osuna is seen as a premium closer and a team that gets him would have a better shot at going deep.  Any AL team that has a playoff spot locked down and thinks they will be serious contenders for the next 3 years should be running hard after him.  In the NL the playoffs are far murkier so unless a team has an issue at closer or setup he might not be as valuable as, say, adding a starter or everyday player.  But if you are a playoff lock he could make the difference as to how far you get.

The risks are obvious.  If he ends up with a jail sentence then he goes on the ineligible list and the team that gets him is only out prospects, not cash, nor service time.  I could see a team that feels a lot of pressure to go deep chasing him.  Boston and NYY should be feeling the heat to go deep.  Houston not as much (WS win last year gives them breathing room), Cleveland has some pressure with the long WS win drought plus their pen sucks (ERA and FIP's over 4 across the board, only extreme LOOGY Oliver Perez is doing well this year).  Given the Jays have shown a willingness to pay some salary in exchange for prospects I could see a Cleveland/Toronto deal happening as Cleveland could really, really use a closer (and a few setup guys so maybe multiple relievers for a few good prospects).
Marlow - Monday, July 30 2018 @ 05:18 PM EDT (#362734) #
Wow, Ken Rosenthal says that Giles+ is coming back in return for Osuna.
Thomas - Monday, July 30 2018 @ 05:29 PM EDT (#362736) #
Osuna to the Astros for Giles plus.
BlueJayWay - Monday, July 30 2018 @ 05:59 PM EDT (#362751) #
The plus is Paulino and Hector Perez. Consensus seems to be the Jays got pretty good value here, especially since they basically decided Osuna must be traded.
grjas - Monday, July 30 2018 @ 06:29 PM EDT (#362763) #
Nice job by the front office. Itís good for the team to lift this black cloud, and frankly- though I donít care - itís good for Osuna...he had confidence issues last year, so I suspect facing the Skydome crowd would have been a challenge for him.

Despite a difficukt situation, the FO got a serviceable closer with a similar term and two MiLB pitchers with good upside. Sure they are still crap shoots, but how many young pitchers arenít? Certainly a more interesting trade than the Happ one.

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