Osuna to the Astros.

Ken Giles coming to the Jays.

Ken Rosenthal says it is Osuna +.

Wow. I thought he was untradeable.

Osuna + for Giles would au first glance be a bad trade.

Giles and Osuna are both controllable through 2020. Very similar career numbers - ERA: Osuna 2.87, Giles 2.72, FIP: Osuna 2.06, Giles 2.25, WHIP: Osuna 1.109, Giles 1.125, K:BB ratio: Osuna 6.33, Giles 4.32

I'm wondering if they'll flip Giles given the trajectory of the team. I mean, keeping a guy around who cussed out his manager and is pretty volatile in general (dude punched himself in the face!) may make for some entertainment, but not necessarily a variable you want around a young team.

He still has his 2nd and 3rd arbitration years I believe. Hopefully he's attractive to some contender.

Giles+ for Osuna. Honestly, wouldn't want much more than this. Happy to be rid of him. Hope Giles can rebound nicely and then get a big package next year.

Doesn't Osuna's suspension delay his FA by a year?

Yes, he is under control for 3 years now.

I wonder if the Jays keep Giles on the farm long enough to add extra year

PrimeTime reporting the Jays get 2 pretty good prospects as well as Giles.

Giles has put up consistent FIPs if inconsistent ERAs, including this season.

Hector Perez #10
David Paulino #23

Rankings according to MLB Pipeline

The Jays also acquired David Paulino (relief prospect at Triple-A) and Hector Perez (SP prospect at A-ball), as well.

Both were Top 10 prospects according to Sickels in the offseason, although I think Paulino's stock has definitely taken a hit.

Oh man, David Paulino and Hector Perez coming to the Jays.

High ceiling prospects with some baggage. Verrrrrry interesting trade.

https://twitter.com/Ken_Rosenthal/status/1024049410060288000

With Giles in the fold, incoming Tepera trade?

Fangraphs did updated Astros top prospect list and had Perez 8th. Outstanding fastball apparently with very good upside. Paulino also a interesting piece. Very happy with this trade.

Osuna and Giles statistically look pretty similar. Osuna has an extra year of control thanks to the suspension. Jays get two pretty highly regarded prospects as well.

Given Osuna's situation, I give this trade a thumbs up - I think Giles can be rehabilitated and flipped next year and the 2 prospects while having red flags, also have upside.

Paulino was #3 prospect before drug suspension....both teams rolling the dice here but in all I think Jays got a better return than I expected for doing it now.

Well, I'm definitely surprised. I didn't think anyone would go near him until things were settled in court.

Now, they'll get some time to try to sort out Giles, get two very interesting arms, and get out from under that headache. They didn't get full value, but they definitely didn't sell for pennies on the dollar.

Ok, that's quite the trick, and because of it gives me a some more faith on the Happ deal in retrospect than I showed initially.

Further to that, Paulino was definitely a guy I was interested in as an extra piece to any Astros deal - the tools are definitely there, but his body and himself have cost so many opportunities that it seemed like an arm they'd use to round out a trade.

Great deal given the circumstance... Giles may not have the mentality/makeup (or command) to be a high leverage guy and Paulino can't hold up as a starter but those are two powerful pen arms for the AL East. And I recently ranked Perez as the eighth best arm in the Astros system over at fangraphs. But it's also 3 40-man spots. Two now and Perez at Rule 5 time...

https://twitter.com/JonHeyman/status/1024053685872152577

Heyman likes the deal

The Astros got a terrific young controllable talent in Osuna. The Jays get to signal that they are a virtuous organization, and they acquire some more depth. Each side is getting what it wants, it seems.

No comment or criticism on the deal meant by this given the circumstances, but if you want to see what ugly minor league walk rates look like, check out Perez's stats.

Paulino was the # 44 overall mlb prospect last year before his PED suspension. I'm surprised the Jays did this well in exchange for Osuna, given the situation.

Giles' problems this year were entirely in non-save situations. He's 12 for 12 in save situations, and hasn't given up a run in save situations - all 17 runs he allowed this year were in non-save situations. I think he'll be a fine closer for the next 2 years.

Almost all the prospects the jays have acquired this year need some fixing but have upside, showing strong believe in Development department.

Well, they can drop Drake right away, maybe Santos. And they can designate some of the guys they're eager to move like Clippard, Granderson, Loup, etc...

Paulino has the stuff to be a starter, but has never logged enough innings to actually get there.
Kinda like Osuna.

Perez profiles more like a closer, but he still has time.

PeterG and Thomas were prophetic this morning.

I would love for the Jays to take offers on Marcus Stroman from the teams that lose out on Chris Archer.

Not bad considering the circumstances. The important part in this is flipping Giles down the road for more prospects. Short term he can be the closer and hopefully regain his old form.

SRF is on four days rest for an August 1 start.

Where are you seeing that? A start for SRF in MLB?

Verlander did a number on Danry Vasquez following his domestic abuse case.
Osuna had nothing to say about the Jays.
Interesting times.

Martin at 3B. Solarte at DH. Morales at 1B.
Wheels keep on turning.

Gurriel has not gone on the DL. Estrada is back and the Drake is gone.

sorry D5, I was just speculating based on the Stroman comment two before mine.

According to a Ben Wagner tweet, Gurriel said that his ankle is worse than his knee and he is quite positive.. Certainly good news compared to what it could have been.

Jays twitter account says Donaldson has been placed on 60 day DL.

He's already been out 60 days, so that's just to clear space on the 40 man roster for the moment.

I'm really not sure about the players the Jays got in return for Osuna but this trade doesn't pass the smell test for me. Something smells fishy. I can't help wondering if there is more wrong with Giles than is being revealed. As for Osuna: I agree with MLB for suspending him for 75 games and I would support any amount of punishment the court system decides is just for any crime he may have committed. But I am not in favor of punishing him further. I strongly support the notion of people convicted of crimes having a chance to rehabilitate themselves after they have been punished and would have liked to witness Osuna being given a chance to do that in Toronto.

Osuna should be very happy with this trade - not only does he get a fresh start with a championship calibre team but he is much closer to home which could help him with his anxiety problems - all in all, I've always felt that a trade was the best for both team and player.

Giles is a head case. He punched himself after a tough loss. He told his manager to f--- off and was sent to the minors.

Paulino has a PED suspension and hasn't pitched enough innings in the minors to realistically start in the majors.

Perez has huge control issues.

They traded 2 years of Giles for 3+ years of Osuna. Makes a lot of sense for Houston.

It's not clear that any of these players will work out for the Jays, but the chances are there.
I think it's fine for both club. Hopefully, this turns out as good as the Teoscar Hernandez trade.

Tough trade.

Osuna: I like the kid's skills but have always been a bit nervous about him on the mound - felt like a high wire act. Of course, everyone has felt like that since the Henke/Ward days. He just hit his expensive years ($5+ mil this year) so mixed with the obvious issues this was a good time to clear him out. Still, he has more saves than anyone his age has ever had. Rivera was still a starter at the same age for example. So this has the potential to look very bad in a few years.

Ken Giles: sub 3 FIP every year, ERA for relievers is a crap shoot. Needs 114 days in the minors to have his free agency delayed a year and that isn't happening. An excellent closer but with obvious issues as covered by others. Also just hitting his expensive years. Smart move now would be to use him as a closer then flip him to someone else either this season or in the off season.

Hector Perez: RHP split between starting and relieving. AA the furthest he has got so far. Tons of K's (10.4 per 9 IP), tons of walks (5.3 per 9 IP). I'd put him in the rotation in AA and see what he does the rest of the way.

David Paulino: RHP who had 6 starts for Houston this year. Poor ERA but nice K/BB (34/7) in 29 IP. If possible let him start in AAA until September, then a few more starts in the majors. Missed a full year in 2014 due to Tommy John surgery. Boldenone is what he tested positive for last year.

Perez's stat line looks like a guy who's got a chance to be a high leverage reliever if he can't figure out how to stop walking every 3rd hitter he sees.

Paulino's been a pro for a long time so probably ready for an extended shot in the majors next year to see what you have if he can stay healthy. His K/BB rate has been solid but he's become quite homer prone in the past couple years.

The Yankees keep jettisoning their mediocre flotsam off their roster for tidbits but, in most cases, useful tidbits. I wish we were doing that. Unfortunately,I don’t think you can move 20 players in 24 hours. With Drury and Williams we’ve actually added to our stack rather than subtracted.

Sorry - McKinney not Williams. Not sure how I managed that swap.

That was a way better return than I would have ever predicted. Good job by Shapiro and Atkins to get something for nothing.

Which Williams? I might make that swap.

But yeah, I haven't had any issues with Osuna the Ballplayer (aside from his velo dip and inconsistency in the second half last year). Maybe you're thinking too much of that, John. Other than that, he's felt pretty much as lights out as a human could be. Once he showed that he recovered from that, he was back to an elite reliever to me.

As for dealing him as punishment, I'm not sure if that's the right way to think of it electric carrot - I look at it as the team just not wanting to deal with the brand hit and the unknowns. To exaggerate it, I doubt they were saying "Screw him!" when they dealt him. Moreso "I just don't want to touch him with a 10-foot pole."

As for Giles, yeah, there are some on-field makeup issues they're going to need to deal with. Hopefully they can get him settled in enough to have an asset to deal in the winter or next summer.

On Paulino, I don't think I can dump on him much for his PED suspension when we're talking about a domestic abuse suspension on the other side of the leger (worth 5 fewer games, no less). I'm thinking unless they want to keep him streched out and try him as a starter in September, they might want to look at him as a possible multi-inning shutdown reliever.

With Perez, he doesn't need to be added to the 40-man until after the season. At that point, they have a year or two to try to get him to find his release point. They seemed to have some success with pitchers like SRF, so I wouldn't give up too early on him.

For people slagging Perez's walks... control is often the last thing to click for power pitchers. Perez works in the mid to upper 90s. The Jay's don't have a lot of those... Enjoy it. Giles walked 7 per 9 innings one year in the minors. Now his control is above average.

You can only stash so many prospects. Nothing wrong with keeping Giles until the trade deadline next year.
He's got value to rebuild.

Paulino was in the PCL.

Comparing Perez to Giles won't convince me that he's a starter.
He does have a great arm.

Is that Tulo in the dugout? Haven't seen him all year.

As for dealing him as punishment, I'm not sure if that's the right way to think of it electric carrot - I look at it as the team just not wanting to deal with the brand hit and the unknowns. To exaggerate it, I doubt they were saying "Screw him!" when they dealt him. Moreso "I just don't want to touch him with a 10-foot pole."
Sure, I don't disagree with this assessment Spifficus. It's kind of what I meant. The same kind of thing happened to Michael Vick. I never condoned what Vick did. I was glad he went to jail. I thought the attitude owners and some fans had after he served his time was similar to what you describe and worse. Here was a man who made a mistake, admitted it, paid a heavy penalty, but in some quarters was never allowed to live it down. I just think that's a shame. I like the idea that once you've done your time, you give a person a chance to prove they are worthy of a second chance.

Tulo lives in Las Vegas and took the short flight to Oakland. He's rehabbing in FLA and his home as doctors are advising him to take time off from activities to heal.

I thought there was more to the Vick story than just Mistake, Admit, Punish, Move On. Re-Skimming some wikipedia seems to line up with what I thought I read at the time, where he didn't admit anything until his co-conspirators reached plea deals. Then, he had lots of problems with inconsistencies about the killing of the dogs, and was found to be deceptive.

Anyway, if Osuna were blackballed from baseball at large, I'd feel different. I agree with the desire for forgiveness, second chances and atonement, and he should definitely have the opportunity to show he has atoned. What I also get is that the Jays have had to wear that scarlet letter for half a season, and were about to have it amplified when Osuna took the mound for their major league team. I get why they wanted to move on from it.

Without Osuna’s suspension (he basically avoids doing stupid things), the return should be better, probably much better. As it stands, maybe the Jays have exceed expectations.

The amazing ing to me is that the Jays didn’t really sell low. Maybe if Osuna didn’t have this issue, they could have received a bit more, but this isn’t a Chapman to the Yankees scenari. Jays got three high upside arms including has beeen as good as Osuna in his career.

Yeah, the headliner isn't a disappointing name-only like Rookie Davis, Stubby Clapp, Boof Bonzer, Gregg Legg, or Phenomenal Smith.... Anyway, yeah, they were closer to the normal elite value, probably about 80 cents on the dollar, which is a pretty impressive feat.

I think the Jays would have gotten more without the suspension/legal troubles, but I'm still fine with the deal given the circumstances. They were not dealing from a position of strength, so to get a reliever that is similar in quality to Osuna, plus two prospects with some upside is a decent haul. As I said before, the key is flipping Giles at the right time. If his head is right he can be a huge asset, especially given how valuable relievers are in trades.

I'm not expecting much of anything to come out of today. The remaining pieces the Jays are looking to trade do not have a ton of value (Granderson, Clippard, Axford, Loup). August might be more interesting if/when Donaldson gets back.

if/when Donaldson gets back.

Waiting for Donaldson and Tulowitzki... Just call us Vladimir and Estragon.

Apparently a game was played last night. Apparently Teoscar clanked another routine fly ball. Apparently Garcia's run of good relief came to a screeching halt. But it was late, so I'll have just have to take it on faith that all this happened.

Giles + the prospects seems pretty strong to me, basically a fair return regardless of the circumstances. Without the extenuating circumstances, if the Jays made this deal in the offseason it would seem like a fine return. A weird deal without the circumstances, sure, but a lateral move with upside potential.

Giles has behaviour issues (but given the trade, they don't look so bad), but his numbers are great this year aside from a comical 60% LOB rate, which is 13th worst for all pitchers with 30 IP this year. Strikeouts are fine, walks are possibly too good this year, with only 3 in 30.2 innings (nice problem to have). The minor league guys seem like they should be able to be useful MLB relievers at worst, and maybe more.

Houston gets a guy who won't have pitched for 3 months with the hope he can be great for the playoff drive. Houston might be a great team, but they are not free and clear from even qualifying for the playoffs. I'm hoping rusty Osuna blows a couple of games and Oakland/Seattle somehow both get past Houston now. No long-term grudges, but for this year, that would be satisfying.

H Perez is about 1 year younger than Zeuch and SRF. So lots of time.

If they deal each of those 4 guys for something/anything, I'll be content. At this point, I'd just prefer to open up spots for guys who you want to investigate whether they could be part of the next good Jays team. I highly doubt any of those 4 guys will be part of it.

The guy I really wish they would be able to trade today is Pillar, since I think a NL club or the Clevelands could really use him. That was a badly timed injury, since I think they could have gotten an interesting piece back for him had he been healthy.

With the acquisitions of position players via trades, did we get more athletic as a team and did our defense improve?

I like adding Major League depth. I love the power we already had, Grichuk, Solarte, Gurriel, Smoak and Hernandez. Drury is probably ok offensively. They are all controllable for next year. We also have ML ready and close minor league position players.

I expect that Pillar will be traded in the offseason.

If Donaldson, Happ and Estrada are off next years team payroll drops about $50 mil.

Tulo, Martin and Morales are the only ones making over $10 mil next year.

The same kind of thing happened to Michael Vick. I never condoned what Vick did. I was glad he went to jail. I thought the attitude owners and some fans had after he served his time was similar to what you describe and worse. Here was a man who made a mistake, admitted it, paid a heavy penalty, but in some quarters was never allowed to live it down.

I don't really know the Vick story well enough to comment, but :

• Beating up your girlfriend is more than a "mistake". (So is operating a dog-fighting ring)
• As far as I've read, Osuna has not publicly admitted anything. I've heard that he's vaguely "remorseful" of something, and is looking forward to a "fresh start". He's also pleading Not Guilty, which is the opposite of admitting something.
• A lot of people are not going to let someone accused of domestic violence "live it down", and with good reason. Society has mechanisms for punishing bad behavior, but every person gets to decide on their own what they're willing to forgive or look past. And Rogers has every right to decide who they want to pay millions of dollars to represent their brand.
• I, too, like the idea that once a person's done his time (which Osuna hasn't), you give him a second chance. I just don't agree that anyone has the right to earn that second chance while making millions of dollars playing baseball. Take some time away from baseball, raise funds for a women's shelter, talk openly & publicly about what you've done and the steps you've taken to change your behavior. Then we can talk about your second chance.

Count me in on the this was a great deal considering the circumstances crowd. Giles can perform to Osuna's level if he gets it together and
Perez and Paulino bring the kind of heat the minors were lacking.

Now more than ever is the time to clear out the bullpen and estrada and starting vie some of the young pitchers a tryout before 40 man decisions in the fall.

leaving off the field issues aside, it has to hurt to trade your star reliever for 3 maybe's, and I'm saying Giles is a maybe because of his volatility and stats this year. Osuna was one of the few above-average players the Jays had. As others have noted, Osuna's salary will be increasing and he had some shaky appearances, ,but overall he was effective and still young.

You're left with Donaldson who has been hurt most of the year, Tulo hurt all of the year and is probably no longer above-average, Stroman who is a very good pitcher at times and Sanchez, again hurt a lot and had one good year. The rest is a sea of mediocrity and we can only hope the young prospects can come through in the next few years. I expect things to get worse before they get better.

Just a couple years ago, the Jays seem to be busting at the seams with elite players. Martin and Bautista got old. EE left to Cleveland. Travis, Tulo and Donaldson can't get healthy. Stroman, estrada and Sanchez come back to earth.

Osuna was still studly, then he beats up his girlfriend... Sigh.....

I am disappointed that he had to go. But... He had to.
I hope Osuna can get it together in Houston. He has said and done things that have made me question him.

THat being said, not a bad haul. Maybe the Jays can get Giles turned around.... Houston seems to have trouble with managing their bullpen. Many of good arms have come there and failed.

I do have to agree that I like this trade over some of the other trades. These are high upside players with alot of risk. We also need some more arms in the system.

Pham leaving St. Louis for TB. I just love this Rays front office. This entire trade deadline has been fascinating to see how the front offices are changing course/strategies from even 2 years ago. Power used to be the hardest thing to get and now it's way down the list.

The way hockey and baseball have changed for younger more athletic players and teams skewered to these yougner players as cores is fascinating to me.

Tommy Phan was a good get for the Rays, but I would say this trade has been an outlier for the rays lately who have let quite bit of value get away from them for next to nothing.

Michael Vick was given a second chance, but not with the same team. He was simply released by the Falcons. I recall that President Obama called the owner of the Eagles to personally thank him for giving Vick a second chance, but no one, not Vick, not the President, not the NFL, not the media, and not the fans, expected the Falcons to simple 'move on' and pretend that nothing happened once Vick was out of prison.

Osuna has done much, much better. Another organization has traded for him. And Toronto sure did better than Atlanta in getting a return as opposed to simply releasing him.

I think the real world looks at this much like Jon Heyman, who admires the return Toronto got in the circumstances. And Houston (and Luhnow) are being criticized for issuing a 'zero tolerance' press release while simultaneously showing tolerance.

I doubt very much that this ever goes to trial. I also doubt that Osuna will avoid a criminal conviction. He may avoid prison time, but I wouldn't count on it. I don't know that the Crown would agree to a sentence served in the offseason either. The optics of a large, professional athlete assaulting a woman (apparently there's video and she was injured) are just too bad for that. It's surprising to me that in the circumstances, Toronto found someone to give this good a deal.

"Estrada is back and the Drake is gone."

Hate the Drake!

Pham isn't young, he is over 30 going to Trop's turf.

I think Estrada came back too soon. I also think that if the bullpen starts fail as they have so far, we should not do that next year.

Tommy Pham was worth 6.2 wins last year and is in the top 4-5 best hitters who play centre field. His advanced stats suggests he was a little lucky last year and really unlucky this year. The only real concern is the drop-off in defence.

I expect that Pillar will be traded in the offseason. It kinda seems as if that could happen. Grichuk getting some legit time in CF to see if that's a thing is well timed this year.

Wow, Jeff Passan breathing some hot fire at the Astros (and in passing, the Jays) over the Osuna acquisition:  https://sports.yahoo.com/trading-roberto-osuna-houston-astros-show-no-conscience-134758777.html

There have been hints here and there about what Osuna stands accused of, but this is the first I've seen some of these items related.  if what Passan reports is true, I am glad we'll never see him in a Jays uniform again. 

This Jeff Passan thing is very odd. He talks like the details of the Osuna incident are common knowledge. I hadn't realized any details had been revealed.

Not hard to imagine it's common knowledge in the police community.

Well, the third longest suspension in 3 years doesn't really sound that bad.

Then he says the Jays should just have released Osuna. That doesn't sound right.
Osuna didn't receive a life time ban.

I have no knowledge of the financial arrangement between Osuna and the victim, but I'd be surprised if  punishing Osuna financially, doesn't  also punish the victim.

Would have been nice to see the Jays and Rogers start some some of domestic violence program aimed at the less fortunate out there.

"Would have been nice to see the Jays and Rogers start some some of domestic violence program aimed at the less fortunate out there."

Why don't you start the program?

There was a picture of Osuna sitting in a cell that was unprofessionally released.
Beyond that, it sounds like Passan doesn't really know anything and is just speculating.

Once all the details are made public, the Jays will have dodged most of the damage.
Houston plays in Toronto late September.

Career SV%:

Giles: 84.6%
Osuna: 83.8%

Career Era:

Giles 2.72
Osuna: 2.87

Career xFIP:

Giles 2.82
Osuna 3.25

It is absolutely insanity that the Astros couldn't tolerate Giles saying a big **** you to AJ Hinch, but they are ok with taking on Osuna despite their overall similar performances to date in their careers.

I think the Jays handled this situation fairly well to date, but should definitely cap it off with some sort of domestic violence education and awareness training made available to either their minor league affiliates or the general public in Toronto.

All the details won't be made public.

For sure there are photos of the victim's injuries. It's no stretch of the imagination to think she doesn't want them released, so they won't be released. Will she be willing to testify?

It's also no stretch to believe a cop who does know facts to say "I can't talk about it, but it was bad".

Because my brand is not tarnished.

I have helped relatives in similar situations. Way too often.
It is very  difficult for both sides. Not the least wasting workdays in court to see hearing rescheduled.  

Back to Rogers, I didn't say that because I feel they are responsible.
I'm selfishly interested in watching games without players being booed.

Possibly more focus on international players who don't speak much English.
Some of those kids have grown in poverty and live in their own universe outside of the clubhouse.
I know the Jays have some sort of player wife association, but what about girlfriends who don't speak English?

I don't think it's fair to expect a baseball team to "cap it off" and funnel cash and invest in programs because of an incident that occurred in the private off field and off team life of one of its employees. They jettisoned him off and want to move on. Why do they now need to create programs and education systems? If you want them to do that as an influential organization in the city then you should be advocating for that year-round not in the aftermath of an incident.

Do you really think that "violence education and awareness training" needs to be made available to their players? You trivialize the whole event by pretending that if Osuna would have known better then this wouldn't have happened. It also sounds naive, imo, to think that the Blue Jays organization can create a program to train the general public about violence against women. That's not their job and frankly they are sending the biggest message they can by releasing or trading away Osuna. Shoeless, this is not directed at you - I agree with your post and think the Jays did a reasonable job with this, but it becomes a slippery slope in general when the public throws ideas of educating around. Domestic abuse is not something of a higher learning issue...it's like shooting someone to kill...you don't need to be educated on that, people just need to be punished and there's nothing that will stop it 100%. Education is important, but it's in our schools and role models and other forms in society. If the media and general public spent more time focusing on the positive role models and the good things that organizations in bad situations do then a bigger impact would be made at large in terms of awareness. Shoeless, again this is not a slag against you or any one poster - instead a general response to the idea of educating men into not breaking the law.

Also: Verlander is in a position to say, "nah, I don't support this and it's not right." Houston would then have to solve the issue. That would be a huge show of support in the right direction.

IMO, if he goes along with this then it's hypocritical. "Well, it's not okay to hit women if there is video evidence and you're a minor leaguer, but since I don't know/haven't seen the details and you're a major leaguer...I'll let it slide this time."

I am VERY interested to see what happens in HOU. Mr. Verlander...all eyes are on you...

I suppose that during incident investigations jumping to conclusions about root causes do not typically lead to effective corrective actions. I will apologize to those that have been affected by domestic violence and understand that simple off the cuff solutions will not fix this issue. Ultimately I hope the Jays have discussed this incident with experts on domestic violence and have followed through on any recommendations provided to them.

However if the Jays feel that there are ways to try to curb behaviours in players they sign at 16 years old and develop into manhood then I think they do have a responsibility to implement them. I know through my younger years progressing through grade school, university and my different work places real world issues have been formally discussed and awareness has been raised through different avenues. Again I don't think it is as simple as saying do not hit women, and it will not happen, but actions have to start somewhere and a high profile case such as his can be a springboard for a larger movement.

I suppose this is really all I have to talk about this on a personal note and will resort back to baseball activities.

Scott, there are no reasonable people for whom the Rogers or Blue Jays brand has been tarnished as you put it. As for those who will in any event claim that the Blue Jays or Rogers are responsible for domestic violence, a quote from Christopher Hitchens comes to mind: "Those who are determined to be 'offended' will discover a provocation somewhere. We cannot possibly adjust enough to please the fanatics, and it is degrading to make the attempt." Quite.

Ben Nicholson-Smith is reporting that Aaron Loup is going to the Phillies for 'a prospect'.

As for 'tarnishing', I don't blame the Jays for anything they have done.

The Astros, on the other hand, have prioritized winning over issues of violence against women.

Today I am much happier being a Jays fan than I would being an Astros fan.

Jacob Waguespack.

https://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=sa659056&position=P

Big guy, could be a depth piece at the MLB level. Seems to have been moved to the pen this year by the Phillies at AAA. Good chance we see him before end of year if he's in the bullpen.

Well there's 2 things at play here.

First, how Rogers chooses to spend its PR dollars. It's not an accident that they decided to let go of Zaun last year.
I'm not really invested in this, I'm just pointing out it doesn't really cost anything.

Second, how the Jays are dealing with ethnic players between the start of spring training and the end of the season.
To me, it's not an off the field issue if it happens during the season. If it was just a personal issue there would be no suspension. What if the next guy is Vladimir Guerrero Jr? Imagine the backlash!

Look at Minnesota. The issues with Miguel Sano were bad, but could have been a LOT worse. How would they have dealt with it?

Kevin Pillar is now the longest tenured Blue Jays.

The one positive in this mess is that sports leagues are now finally suspending players for this appalling behaviour, behaviour that I’m sure has been happening for a long time. And it also sends a strong message to impressionable young sports fans in several countries that this type of action is not only appalling but criminal ... even if they shouldn’t need to be told.

Waguespack is 24 and wasn't on the 40 roster for Philadelphia.
He could start in Buffalo. I don't see the Jays adding him to their 40 either.

The Orioles are shopping Schoop? Isn't he the kind of player they should be trying to get?

Waguespack in Buffalo already just has to change dressing rooms

At least Pillar is a popular  player.

So, who becomes the longest tenured Blue Jays should Pillar be traded?

Axford to the Dodgers.

Only about 17 or 18 more deals like the Loup and Axford deals to go!

Who will be in the Jays bullpen tonight? Unless the Jays were pro-active in sending some arms out west they could be short.

Archer deal grades well for Stroman or Sanchez deal in off season. Even if Stroman isn't as good or cheap. Huge deal for TB.

For Corey Copping. AA/AAA RP.

https://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=sa875831&position=P

Beauxites,

Which farm system (including young players on MLB roster) do you prefer TB or TBJ?

Dalimon, Atlanta and San Diego.

Between TB and Toronto only

No Granderson or Clippard trades.

Copping, I could see in the big club. Has a great fastball/slider combo. Hides the ball well.

Stroman right now falls somewhere between Archer (top 10 fip pitcher consistently) and Gausman (2 years control with some upside).

If Stroman can finish strong he can likely net us 2/3rds of what the Rays got for Pittsburgh.

If you're including young major leaguers thalen Atlanta for sure. Albies and Acuna alone is a core never mind their starters. A really stacked system.

Grandy and Clipper could move in August whenever somebody gets hurt.
Return would be minimal, though.

They've shed enough bullpen arms, the crunch will be in the outfield and maybe behind the plate comes September.

Now they attempt the acrobatic feat of losing as many games as possible while still looking good.

I'm surprised they couldn't find a home for Granderson, and I imagine someone would claim him in August, so he may end up playing out the string in Toronto. Cleveland seemed like the most logical fit, and they ended up with Martin instead.

Clippard not moving (when Axford and so many other RP did) is surprising. I assume we've seen all the deals now?

Did they get anything noteworthy for Gausman? Braves took Darren O'Day and his salary.
Encarnation is 3B with an OPS of .777. Could develop into a decent 3B by 2021, or not
Cumberland is an offensive catcher who hasn't hit in AA yet.
Doesn't seem like much.

During all of July I saw more interest for Axford than for Clippard, so that wasn't a surprise at that point.

The Blue Jays know who they are keeping for next year and after. Everyone else will go on waivers as soon as possible. If Kevin Pillar was healthy he would have been traded. For people who were on the D.L. at least five games must be played before they might be traded. The sooner a deal is made, the better the return.

Don't see any team making a blocking claim on Grandy in August.

I think Atlanta & Tampa Bay did well - but my prediction is that 5 years from now, the Roberto Osuna trade is going to be judged as the best trade of this deadline - Kudos to Shapkins.

Copping looks like he might have an outside shot, Waguespack not really - he walks a lot and gives up a lot of hits. Loup's WHIP since his rookie season: 0.913, 1.139, 1.165, 1.276, 1.326, 1.526, 1.598 - that's not something you see often, a stat getting worse every year for so many years in a row. Will be interesting to see which of the remaining trade candidates are dealt in August.


I guess the Archer trade is considered the biggest deal of the day, but I probably have a lower opinion of the players involved than most people do. Archer has benefitted by playing his entire career in a great pitchers' park. When you look at his home road splits, you see that clearly. Away from Tropicana, he gives up a lot more hits, way more HR's, walks more, K's fewer, and he's turning 30 soon. On the other hand Pittsburgh is also a good pitchers' park, and no more DH, no more Yankees, Red Sox, etc, so he should be reasonably good for the remaining 3 years of control Pittsburgh gets. Glasnow was a highly regarded prospect, but has not pitched well at all in mlb, with a career ERA just under 6.00 and a WHIP of 1.71. Meadows has not hit well in AAA the last 2 years, with OPS numbers around .700, but did hit well in a short stint with the Pirates this year, and he just turned 23.

The Schoop trade adds a terrific young player to the Brewers. He put up 5.2 WAR last year in his age 25 season. Got off to a terrible start this year, but has turned it around completely in the last month. For July, Schoop is hitting .360 with 9 HR's and an OPS of 1.056. The Brewers have control of him for next year, too.

Schoop was a weird add though, they already have Moustakes and have moved Shaw to third, they have Aguilar and Thames at 1B. Where do thyou we guys play? I do think you are seeing s trend of teams downplaying defence a bit. I think because the ball is put in play much more and there are many more shifts, defence is probably just less valuable. Gaussian is interesting pickup by Braves. Could be next Arrieta or could continue to be mediocre. Braves didn’t give up much and took on some salary.

Between TB and Toronto only

Sorry, dalimon I misread the question. I would have to say TB, as they are so well balanced. If you look through the Pipeline top 10's, they have someone at each spot except catcher, and in some cases a couple of players.Our pitching and outfield is light. But we're headed in the right direction and catching up, I would say. I like our drafts and international signings, and while we didn't pick up studs with deadline trades I think we strengthened the system. Kudos IMO to Sanders, LaCava, Tinnish for acquisitions and Cherington and Kim on the development side. Ben and Gil will be addressing season ticket holders at winterfest this offseason and it will be interesting to hear what they have to say.

It will be interesting to see who’s on the Roster, let alone who plays where.
There are just 10 Pitchers on the Roster, plus whoever gets to Oakland in time to play in the Game. As of 16:30 MDT, Guriel had yet to be put on the D.L. Whether Diaz and Travis are healthy enough to be effective, playing Russell Martin in the Infield should almost never happen, not back-to-back games. With the Game starting in just a few hours, no news is not good news.

The lack of relievers and healthy MI's may put a crimp on our playoff hopes.

Gurriel is out 2-6 weeks with a Grade 1 knee sprain and a high ankle sprain. I'd bet on the 6 weeks. They'll be conservative with a good young player, and high ankle sprains tend to linger.

The Jays have 57 games remaining, so they are not out of the Playoffs as yet. Going 42-15 gets the 90 wins and a possible berth. Be a while yet before that happens.

Yeah the line-up card tonight is a little depressing. I have no idea why Drury isn't playing every night over Solare or Travis. Also calling up Sweeny over Pompey doesn't make much sense to me. If they don't clean up the roster in the next few days I think I finally give up on Pompey as even the 4th outfielder.

Pompey may not be healthy - hasn't played since he was pulled from the game a few days ago.

Ken Giles is supposed to join the Team in Oakland for the game, but I have no idea who else is being added to the Roster. Does anyone know?

Gaviglio may go deep into the game.

Deep? You are joking right?

History may be made tonight in Washington. In the top of the 7th, the Nats are ahead of the Mets 19-0. The modern record for a shut-out win is 22-0, set by the Pirates over the Cubs in 1975. I'd be interested in knowing the pre-modern record, as I don't know how to work baseball-reference. The baseball deities, who failed us so miserably in 2016, may intervene to protect the Cubs' record however as there's the start of rain.

Already tonight Tim Wallach's franchise record for hits was broken by Zimmerman.

And as I type, the Mets hit a homer to preserve the record. Nothing to see here, move along.

Yes. I am joking.

Brandon Cumpton RHP is on the 25-Man Roster!?!?! Why?

I think the only way we know who is on the Roster is if they play in either game the next two days.

With Gurriel out I would like to see an every day lineup of Travis 2B, Diaz SS and Drury 3B. I’ve seen enough of Solarte as an everyday player already. I’m not a fan of Drury but I think he should get a good run between now and the end of the year to see where he’s at.

Solarte is being overplayed, as is Granderson in right. But I don't think Gibby's about to change the lineup. He has Smith, Granderson and Solarte in because they hit left.

I think the only way we know who is on the Roster is if they play in either game the next two days.

Or else look at the active roster on mlb.com.

Richard - great question. He's essentially been out of baseball on/off for the past 4 years. Mediocre stats at Buffalo in few games. Puzzling (especially give Shafer...)

Brandon Cumpton RHP is on the 25-Man Roster!?!?! Why?
According to a post here previously, the coaching in the minors view Double-A as highest level for developing prospects. Players in Triple-A are more or less waiting to be promoted to the majors. Given that, now after that veteran players -- Axford and others -- are traded, promoting players who are waiting to play in the majors makes sense. On New Hamsphire roster's of tonight, no player has any MLB experience but on Buffalo's some do, so promoting players from Buffalo makes sense. Some players already test their performances this season -- Guillmet, Mayza, Urshela, Urena, Ngoepe, last or previous seasons -- Dermondy, Moll, Paulino and on rehab -- Barnes. The performances of remaining players come either from old players and well sorted out in MLB, needing more time in Buffalo and neither: Brewlow, Pompey, Tepesch, Stewart in the former, Vlad Jr. McKinney Waguesback, De La Cruz, Mayorga, McGuire, Lopes, Heidt, Alford, Davis, Fields, Guerreri, Pannone etc. The remaining players after all the sieves above are few: J-Leb, Cumpton, Sweeney, Jansen(?), Fisk, Reid-Foley, Shafer, Tracy.  Tepesch, who has 44 MLB starts, was rocked for 8 runs in 2 IPs today as a starter. Stewart, who has 14 MLB starts, was rocked for 4 runs in 1 1/2 innings about two weeks ago but only 1 run in 5 IP in his last and only start this MiLB season so those two may need more time polishing their performances. If one put one more sieve of previous long tenure in MLB, only Cumpton and Sweeney pass. Cumpton has 15 MLB starts, also.

In my opinion only, looking too much for answers may not be needed this time. I think having previous MLB starts is the deciding factor after other considerations

When Donaldson and Gurriel come back, Jays will have some problems. Gurriel, Donaldson need to play everyday and Diaz because nobody else can really play SS, needs to play a lot. Drury will also need some run. Morales can sit sometimes as well obviously but still too many ifers. Don't see how Travis stays with the team right now. Can't hit, can't field, and has no versatility. He has options though so could go down for a couple of weeks until September. Hopefully Jays can trade Donaldson and Solarte.

I'm not expecting Gurriel back in August. Sprained ankle and sprained knee. He might walk without a limp, but I don't see him sprinting.   Pillar and Barnes should be back though. I don't think Cumpton and Sweeny will stick.

I prefer the depth chart where it shows Randal Grichuk as starting in center and right at the same time.

Crumpton and Sweeney are up because the Jays are trying to better their draft slot. Sweeney, though, is also able to play both the infield and outfield, so the versatility is valuable. I also get the feeling the team is still planning to make trades and didn't want to plug up the 40-man with players that they would lose through waivers.

Hope the Jays give Travis plenty of at bats for the rest of the season because it's time to cut bait this winter.

Aren't Crumpton and Sweeney guys they could lose through wavers? Or do you mean prospects?

Crumpton and Sweeney are more like guys who would pass through waivers. And if they were claimed, no big deal.

Crumpton and Sweeney are more like guys who would pass through waivers. And if they were claimed, no big deal
Good observation and then reasoning but why the Jays bring up Crumpton and Sweeney guys besides their versatility.
Crumpton and Sweeney are up because the Jays are trying to better their draft slot.
Good speculation. Source(s) for this or the poster is a good source?

Good speculation. Source(s) for this or the poster is a good source?

Are you asking if there is someone within the Blue Jays organization who has gone on the record to say that the team is intentionally using lousy players so that they can improve their draft position by losing more games????

Are you asking if there is someone within the Blue Jays organization who has gone on the record to say that the team is intentionally using lousy players so that they can improve their draft position by losing more games???? (Chuck, August 01 2018 @ 04:25 PM EDT)

Please read previous post. The above question shall be directed to the original poster...
Crumpton and Sweeney are up because the Jays are trying to better their draft slot. Sweeney, though, is also able to play both the infield and outfield, so the versatility is valuable. I also get the feeling the team is still planning to make trades and didn't want to plug up the 40-man with players that they would lose through waivers. (Marc Hulet, August 01 2018 @ 09:34 AM EDT)

Stroman really is too hittable. I kinda feel like he's always going to disappoint, because while his stuff can be amazing, he just always seems to leave one pitch up. Is that a height thing? Is it a focus thing? Mechanics, maybe? I dunno. I hope he fixes it, and the Jays get a reasonable deal.
We are now in the miserable portion of the Jays season.I wish we could have the free and easy Orioles type hot streak. I kinda get the feeling that the whole Machado thing mighta been a distraction for a while, so... who knows if the Jays are hiding anything like that.

The Jays are 1 more draft (like last year) away from top 2 farm system in baseball. Very likely the Jays finish poorly and draft 4th or 5th overall in June. If Donaldson comes back healthy then they probably pick 10th to 15th again.

Gonna be really tough for the Jays managing to out-stink 5-6 teams behind them in the standings. Still have 9 games vs the Orioles plus a 4 game set in KC.

Not really. If you look at the standings there are only 2 teams worse than the current Jays and we might get even worse. You reference the games we have left vs BAL but we have more vs NYY, BOS and TB. Even if they can't catch 5-6 teams, like you say, then they're still picking 6th or 7th.

Lots of ex-Jays on MLBTR today. Carlos Ramirez and Hechavarria DFA'd. Adam Lind a Free Agent again, And Jimmy Cordero, part of the trade for Ben Revere, will get his first taste of the bigs with Washington.

The Jays are going to be graduating many prospects next year including Vlad/Jansen which means their prospect ranking takes a hit even with another good draft - as long as the Jays have a top 10 system, I'm not really concerned about being #1 - after all, graduating successful prospects is the goal.

I would be surprised if Ramirez clears waivers. The Jays should jump on him if nobody else does.

85,

You're right about graduating prospects lowering the farm ranking, especially Vlad and Bo. I don't see how we can be higher than top 5 once that happens.

Drew Hutchison, who has been pitching well in AAA has opted out of his contract - the Jays need starters asap - I see a match.

Whats funny is how many should graduate next year.  Vlad, Bo, SRF, Jansen, Biggio could too if he keeps hitting, etc.  Not hard to see a situation that allows that to happen, nor is it hard to imagine all but Vlad and SRF left in AAA for 2019.  Can't see how Vlad can be left down all of next year or even for more than a month.  SRF should be up quickly too unless the rotation stablizes quickly.  Bo and Biggio and Jansen I can see cases for keeping in the minors (mainly due to ML players at their positions who are probably here next year too).

Yeah, Hutchison should have no trouble finding a starting gig somewhere the way he's been pitching. Jays, O's, Rangers, Angels of the top of my head.

Today marks game 108 meaning the season will soon be exactly two thirds done. Which means there is a whole final turd to go. And what will be worth watching?

Errrr....

I think it's clear that we won't see Guerrero until early next season (due to service clock gamesmanship). The might-not-be-a-pumpkin-after-all Gurriel may not return for a good long while, if at all. Donaldson will force himself back to establish some off-season value, but that may not be pretty.

Am I missing anything? I guess we'll see if Stro Show can sort himself out (his FIP is the same as Happ's). Maybe we'll see if Giles can battle for the closer's job. These are not compelling storylines.

Oh, and I guess we'll see if Morales can continue his phoenix rising from the ashes routine, confounding his many detractors (me included). His monthly OPSes: 499, 702, 808, 1032. Plot those on a graph and he'll be outhitting Trout and Betts shortly. That should be fun... or is that not the way forecasting works?

Can't see how Vlad can be left down all of next year or even for more than a month.

John, one reason may be to work on his defence. There may also be offense-related things that the PD folk want to work on. What are the reasons for hurrying his promotion? It's not like next year is going to be a potential playoff year and I'm skeptical that bringing him up would have any effect on attendance. To me it seems like burning service with no return.

I too think it is possible Vlad could be left down for all of next year. I am not predicting it, but recognize the possibility. As stated above it could be to work on his defence or even to transition him to 1B. IF he hits over .400 that will be difficult to do but if he is batting a more mortal .300 for example, it may well happen.

Part of the pressure comes from the 40 roster. There's only 15 guys on it that are in the minors and some of them have to come up to cover injuries and the overworked bullpen.

For Guerrero it's totally different. He's the new face of the franchise. You bring him up and hope he breaks records.
What the rest of the team does shouldn't matter. Even the worse teams don't keep their best players in AAA once they are ready.

There's basically 3 options.They sign him to an extension and bring him up in September. They keep him down in April for service time reasons. Or they act like a small market team and keep him down longer to dodge the super 2 arbitration status.

Well if Donaldson returns or Drury is playing very well at 3B then I could see Vlad not coming up until after super 2 and of course if Vlad is struggling then all bets are off - but if Vlad is raking and the jays try to keep him on the farm all year, not only would there be massive media & fan criticism but I expect a union grievance and a terrible way to start a relationship.

AA said that his arm was surprisingly weak for the outfield. So they asked him where he likes to play and he said third base. So they tried him there and surprisingly the arm was fine. And so he spend his entire development playing third base. So you think now they should move him to 1B and delay his career for that reason?

Vlad is going to end up at 1b or DH eventually. I don't think that the Jays have any intention of offering a QO to Donaldson.

Your starting pitcher tonight is Tyler Clippard.

The only exciting part of tearing it down is seeing some young guys get some opportunities. Having the Jays start Clippard is very frustrating. Hopefully the bullpen absolutely explodes tonight and the Jays get aggressive in their replacements on the pitching staff.

They are certainly not rushing guys up. Sanchez is getting close, so they might wait until/if Estrada is moved.

The #BlueJays suspended Dalton Pompey without pay after an altercation with triple-A manager Bobby Meacham.

They might as well let Martin try and pitch....I'd rather see that than Clippard.


Sell all the spare parts on the team and get some more Int'l FA $$.-> go sign Victor Victor

I don't think they could reasonably leave Vlad down all next season if he's doing anything close to what he's done this season. There would be a huge outcry, and it would likely poison the relationship with him. Personally, I'd be thrilled if they worked out a 12-year $200 million contract to start 2019. Seems to me $50 million for the 6 pre-free-agency years ($.5, $.5, $4, $10, $15, $20) and $150 million for 6 years of free agency ($25 million per year) would be pretty good as a guarantee for him, and gives the Jays long-term control of what looks like a generational talent. I'd also offer to front-load it a bit, so he has access to more of the cash earlier - payrolls could be lighter in those early years anyway. Transfers some performance risk from Vlad to the Jays, but frees them from the risk of losing him after six (or 6+) years, and allows him to start his big-league career out of camp next year.

Lets go with Gerry's leadership.

Tonight's starter T Clippard. I would like to hear bauxites opinions of the lineup until the Sept callups.