Max Scherzer is going for a cortisone shot so don't expect to see him pitching for a while.

"Yimi Garcia is continuing to experience neck and biceps nerve symptoms", so he's probably not coming back any time soon, either.

On the bright side, Lenyn Sosa started a rehab in Florida. The actual bright side is it seems he's shut down again after getting 3 PA's apiece Monday and Tuesday.

Gotta love the Jays fans - 8 of 9 players on the final ballot or in already.

• Ernie Clement will start at 2B in the ASG (most votes in the AL).
• C: Kirk came in 2nd; 1B: Vlad (#1); 3B: Okamoto (#1); SS: Gimenez (#2); OF: Varsho & Sanchez; DH: Springer (#2). Only Straw failed to make it.
• NL: Teoscar Hernandez is on the ballot for the OF, Freeman at 1B (kinda/sorta Canadian)

I was hoping Otto Lopez would make it in the NL, as he is having a great year and is both an ex-Jay and a Canadian. Ah well.

I figure Okamoto should make it (Japanese fans voting for him plus Jay fans should make that easy), hopefully Jay fans go nuts voting next week and get a few more in who shouldn't be there (Vlad-Varsho-Sanchez would be funny, no chance Gimenez gets more than Bobby Witt I'd think, and very low odds for Springer over Álvarez, Kirk could sneak in thanks to ballot stuffing). Basically it would take a big stuffing effort for more than Clement & Okamoto to make it.

Ugh. Had to turn that off - what is going on with Gausman? He just keeps giving up homers lately it seems.

Was fonna comment about Gausman too. Curious if there's noticeable changes in release/commamd/control. Could jiat be a couple of bad starts in a row being more noticeable, especially because of bad timing.

On the whole, Gausman has been somewhere between mediocre and downright bad since his first couple of starts of the season. Father Time may just be starting to knock on the door.

His slider had never been a good pitch and whenever he throws too many they usually homer on one.

Gausman always stood out as a guy getting lots of calls on splitters below the knees. The ABS isn't great for him.

There are 154 qualified hitters in baseball. Going into tonight, Vlad ranked 147/154 in ISO. Something is seriously wrong.

What's the solution? He's probably way too proud to take a week and a half off with a fake injury, so there's really nothing you can do but roll him out there every day.

To answer a question from the other thread, I'd make the following changes:

DH Kirk
Valenzuela to C
Springer to LF
Luke's in RF or CF when Barger comes back
Varsho sits when Barger is back

Sitting Varsho who has a 115 WRC+ and still very good defense seems like a strange way to try to improve the team. About Vlad, I don't know but he clearly needs some time off. He's killing the team.

I think you want a bit less Kirk for the next month or so rather than finding ways to get him in the lineup more often.

"Gausman has been somewhere between mediocre and downright bad since his first couple of starts"

Over starts 3-12 his ERA was 3.63 and his FIP 3.35

It's just June that's been mediocre or worse.

Might still be wearing down but it's a more recent thing, not almost season long.

I give Gausman credit for gutting it out and getting 6 innings in after he gave up 6 runs. He could've called it a night after 5 but he wanted to give the pen that extra inning off. SWR did a fine job finishing it off - the pen's main guys should be at 100% tomorrow, so even in a loss something can be gained. Now, as others have said, we need Vlad to come back to life. I can guarantee it is driving him more nuts than us.

I think Varsho has declined immensely defensively this year and he's not as good as either Lukes or Straw. Both of those guys have also been playing better offensively than before.

Kirk is one of your best hitters. He's played bad in about 40 ABs. I expect that to improve. Putting him in the line up as a DH means Valenzuela, one of your best hitters, enters the line up and it means Springer isn't your designated DH. It also means a guy like Sanchez isn't in the OF. That's a bunch of improvement simply by inserting Kirk into the DH role. He's also been absolutely brutal on steal attempts.

Varsho is way too streaky and with his drop in defense and power does it make sense to bench Springer, Lukes or Barger so he can play?

Checking FG - Varsho is ranked 29th in CF by their defensive runs. Yikes. 0 DRS 2 OAA. Straw though is negative in defensive runs, -2 DRS, 0 OAA. Lukes is at 0.5 (same as Varsho but in 58 innings vs 527 innings) with 1 DRS and 0 OAA.

Varsho leads the Jays OF with his 115 wRC+, Pinango was at 113, Lukes is at 113 right now, Sanchez 109, Straw 84, Schneider 68. Go to the last 30 days though and all but Straw (69) are over 100, Schneider 133, Varsho 132, Lukes 129, Sanchez 123, Pinango 118 (doesn't count tonight's game).

Bottom line, Varsho is still valuable, but his defense has gone down a notch. Straw has gone down a notch too, but his bat sucks. Straw's LF is 0 runs/2 DRS/0 OAA, RF 1 run/0 DRS/2 OAA. So we have Schneider back to being himself, Varsho a bat first CF, Lukes solid all around, Sanchez has a decent bat/bad glove, Pinango in the minors as his glove was ugliest. I'm hoping they either trade for a good OF or Barger comes back guns blazing.

perusing the MLBTR potential trade candidates list and had a bit of curiosity about Robbie Ray.

To be clear any pitcher that is similarly good (or better) and comes with control beyond this year would be a higher priority - Joe Ryan, Ried Detmers, Sandy Alcantara for example) but I discovered something that has me intrigued.

His ERA is a solid 3.70 but his FIP is a less appealing 4.79, presumably due to the unsightly walk rate. BUT here's the thing: he got absolutely pounded on May 18 - he gave up nine earned runs in 4.1 innings. Take away that one start and his line this season is 83.1 IP, 59 H, 27 ER, 40 BB, 79 K

That's an ERA of 2.92

Even with the walks, that will play. And with his significant contract there's a scenario in which you maybe get him for a lower prospect cost than basically any of the premium guys on the (theoretical) market. Heck, taking on the whole contract (7.5-ish million at the deadline, more if you can get him early) might help loosen their grip on Schmitt. They probably see Ray in a more favorable light, given their history, than some other teams.

I don't hate it.

That's some really good insight on Mr. Ray. I noticed from that article that Jeff Hoffman was listed as a trade chip and likely to be sought after even with his 11 million.

That was the best plate appearance he has had in a while, I thought my suggestion that he needed a break would provide some motivation. Shame he got beat by the 97 down.

I wish Jays fans would stop voting for him so he could have a week off with grandma's cooking back home.

Guerrero Sr was an extreme contact hitter much like Clement.
Vladdy is better served with Encarnation who has been in the dugout for weeks. 

I think it's time to drop Springer in the order.
Another 0-4 yesterday. OBP is at 2024 level.

If they wanna win I agree on Springer. If Vlad is injured he should be IL'd. If I ran the team I'd ask him to skip the all star game and put the team first.

Blue Jays top 4 in the line up are near the bottom for rankings and dead last when runners are in scoring position. Lukes and Okamoto are the only two non-disasters hitting in the top 4...that's why I would put Kirk in the top 4 and remove him from catcher because he's been brutal behind the dish with runners. He still your best bat against high velocity which is what is ailing George. Put yourself in the opposing pitchers shoes and tell me which you would prefer:

Lukes - hot hitter make good pitches
Vlad - not himself, fb in and slider away
Kirk - elite hitter just back from injury 40 ab
Okamoto - try not to make a mistake, execute of speed pitch out of zone

Vs

Springer - velocity will get him out

The reason i haven't posted here is I don't want to get into disagreements, but it sure looks like we should be deadline sellers. This is not a good team that needs much more than a few fixes. JMO

Would you sell anyone under control past this year and where would you look to improve the club for 2027?

Thankfully the Jays aren’t operated like one’s video game dynasty team. They will not be sellers from (or close to) a playoff spot, as enticing a prospect as that may seem.

It's happening! Sean Keys recalled. Don't know the countermove, but it's the right time to make this move.

Wow, that is shocking. Is Vlad or Springer hurt? That is my first thought.

As usual many astute posters here were calling for this very move. Must mean that Springer is going to the OF or that Vlad may go to IL if he's injured.

Simeon Woods Richardson has been DFA'd. Adam Macko recalled.

SWR has been OK, this move must be about getting more left handed relief in place.

Keys is not in the lineup today, which makes sense.  He's got to get here and get acclimated.  

SWR has been incredibly lucky. His stuff is bad so he's going to get lit up. No problem setting him free. The move I'd like to see made at this point got Keys is a trade of a Sanchez. Jays just don't need him. He's ok and in a different team, might fit better but on Jays who already have Lukes and Barger at corner OF, with other LH OF at AAA, it's fine to move on.

Selling is not enticing whatsoever. Let's see where we are in a month. Hope I'm wrong, but I see us at least a couple of games back of the final WC spot by the deadline. And yeah, Atkins won't sell if the other WC "contenders" continue to be as mediocre as the Jays.

GLevin, absolutely right. Sanchez was a strange acquisition in the first place given how left-handed the OF already was, plus his poor defence. He is surplus to requirements and should be moved to fill a need, not that the return would be huge.

I think I had this in the wrong thread:

Springer's rebound, such as it is, actually goes back to May 18. From there through the end of the month his line was .259/.322/.481/.804 in 13 games (that is, a bit better than June but I don't know how to get the WRC+ or whatever for that period - probably on Fangraphs if I was familiar enough with the features.

From May 18 through Monday, in 29 games, his line was .265/.359/.478/.837 which yes, is an AEP (but so is sorting by months) but going 1-13 in the last three games kind of obscures the point. And that includes a pace that would yield 33 doubles and 33 homers over a full season.


When I was predicting how a good '26 would look, what I supposed was that Vlad and George reverse outcomes - that is George would drop back to something like what Vlad did in '25 (.848 OPS) and Vlad would step up to something similar to what George did in '25 (.959 OPS)

If George is "fixed" and continues this level of production then he would be basically upholding his end of that supposition, the first 7 weeks excepted). It's reasonable to hope that this might be what he can do from here on out (the toe issue resolved?) but no one really knows.

Which leaves Vlad.

Anyway, as far as the lineup discussion, if Springer is producing at something similar to this level then he's fine leading off. The downside risk is that being pretty good for more than a month, he has renewd John's confidence in him and if he does fall back to below average John won't want to move him, he'll just hang on and wait for the (hoped for) next rebound. TL,DR: he's not going to get moved down. Whatever happens happens.

Trading Sanchez simply means finding a team who has a considerable need at DH. Pirates for instance (Ozuna has a 65 OPS+) or the Padres

Very happy to see Keys with the Jays. Hope Schneider uses him, because the Jays need the offence he might provide.Also, there is a certain lefty hitting SS in Buffalo who might be a great replacement… NO! Ain’t gonna happen!

In that first game against Houston, they bunted so that a flyball scores the runner. Then Springer hits a soft ground ball to second with a hitter's count on a ball a foot outside. That's plainly not acceptable. Right now, he looks worse than Lukes when he had vertigo.

He got better when he moved to DH because he had more time to focus on his ABs. So focus or move on.

Interested to see what the countermove for Keys is....

Wilner posted that Springer's wife is due to give birth VERY soon and thus quite possibly Keyes is here for a brief look while Springer is on paternity leave.

I KEEP misspelling Keys

Wasn't DFA of SWR the move for Keys?

SWR for Macko

If Keys works out, we got to go after a Stiebs and a Barfields next.

Awe come on folks. Isn’t anyone going to bite on the LHH SS in AAA? He could be a gigantic improvement.

SWR released and Macko up to back up Corbin tonight.

This feels a lot like when they brought Little up.
It's not like they don't need a long man.

Corbin actually looked a little unlucky in that first inning to me - not a lot of hard-hit balls. Not cheapies, but neither were they hitting anything on the barrel. He's getting a lot of called strikes, and missing a few bats. Hope we get a couple more good innings from him.

Corbin was the same last year. Good the first 2 months, bad the rest of the year.

He threw many bad pitches in that inning. Soft contact hits with 2 strikes isn't a good outcome. With 2 strikes and runners in scoring position hitters are trying to hit in between fielders. Fielders are playing to pull and the pitch is outside and flicked the other way.

I’ve been getting into the habit of tuning into these games a couple innings late (on days I can watch at all, seeing as I work nights) and if the Jays are down multiple runs, quickly turning it off and doing something else.

It’s a practice I’m likely to keep repeating until/if this team ever gets securely above .500. Because let’s be honest: this isn’t a whole lot of fun to watch most nights and the shadow of last October makes it all the more unpleasant. Nothing against any of these players either (well aside from Lenyn Sosa), who have to be just as frustrated (probably infinitely more) as any fan is. But following this 2026 team* is feeling a lot like being Charlie Brown aiming to kick a football.

*I am curious to see Keys though. I’ll tune in for that if I can.

Yeah, Corbin needs to go. He filled in nicely but he's a bad pitcher and will keep getting hit hard.

Doesn't make much sense to use Macko against the lefty mashers who started against Corbin.

They were wasting Kikuchi's starts this way.

3 outs, 31 pitches. It's like not having a second lefty.

Krose I don't think the Jays want to make things Hairier than they already are.

This team not sellers? LOL.

they would have to collapse pretty hard and be, I dunno, 7-8 games out of the wild card, by August 1 before Ross would resign himself to selling.

But IF that happened, there might be as many as 4-6 pitchers to market (depending on when/if Mantiply and Garcia prove healthy) but not THAT much on the offensive side. Sanchez for sure, Gimenez they should be so lucky, and...?

Lukes probably has SOME value but not the kind of guy who's gonna land you a real piece unless you get lucky like they did with a couple of those '24 deals. Maybe you trade Varsho with the intention of trying to negotiate with him in the off-season?

Some positive news. The Athletic posed 2 questions to just over 100 players from 23 teams across the league.

Which organizations have bad reputations among players?

73 players responded. multiple answers allowed. Rockies with 28 negative mentions were worst. Pirates, A's, White Sox, Angels, Marlins all with 11 or more. Zero Jays.

Which organizations have good reputations among players?

93 players responded. multiple answers allowed. Dodgers far ahead with 59 mentions. Yankees 2nd with 38, Cubs 3rd with 28. 4th place with 16 - the Blue Jays.

“The facilities in Toronto are crazy good. For me, where I’ve played … there’s nowhere close to Toronto when it comes to that.”

“Their clubhouse has every bell and whistle. I heard travel for them is good, especially considering you have to cross national borders. And they do a lot to make sure their guys get paid.”

“I've been impressed with what they're doing. They clearly want to win. Their facilities are great. And it seems like they have a good culture.”

“I’ve heard nothing but great things about Toronto.”

And they do a lot to make sure their guys get paid.”

One wonders the context of this positive anonymous player quote.

Is this in reference to playing time & contract player bonuses? Handing out per diem money? Treatment of cup of coffee players & the DFA? Promises to players in their walk year?

In The Star this morning I read that George Springer is heading for paternity leave and that Sean Keys is up to replace him, probably for just a short stay.

Can't imagine Jays burning a 40-man spot on Keys to have him up for 2 games. I imagine that even if he gets sent down, the plan will be to get him back up soon.

Sounds like Sanchez is hurt too so that might be the Keys move.

Problem is the Jays aren't 1-2 players away from being a solid playoff time. I recognize they'll buy given their place in the standings and the lacklustre AL strength this year but no one here can rightfully argue buying is the right decision, can they?

Playoffs is about hot streak.
Vlad was fantastic last year and Judge has been putrid year after year.

I would t rule out the Jays. They are split seconds away from contending. What do I mean? Vlad. He will survive, he will thrive, he will correct his slump and when he does they will go on a roll and the best part is they have Okamoto who is starting to thrive as a power bat behind Vlad.

Jays will take 2nd in the division. Vlad self correcting, Barger and Santander eventually returning...I have faith. Bieber will bounce back strong.

I feel they need to get another bullpen arm and rotation addition.

Corbin is in line to start the Canada Day game.
Hopefully they remember that they are playing at home before then.

That's brilliant. Ugly you missed the discussion. Would you put faith in Lirkie right now and let him DH with Springer going to the OF with Lukes/Straw and Varsho/Schneider platoons? This way Brandon C can DH.

Schneider optioned to get Keys up which I guess is OK but at some point, the Jays are going to have to stop putzing around he edges of the roster and deal with having too many LH corner OFs. It is a fundamental imbalance the Jays have had all season. The Jays are 28th in OPS+ vs LHP this year. They were 4th best last year. (115 to 84). What's so infuriating about this as opposed to say something like Vlad being bad, is that this was an extremely predictable issue as soon as they traded for Sanchez and we're halfway through the season and they haven't done anything about it. Who is the vs LHP OF? Straw, Varsho, and Lukes? That's abysmal.

I casually wonder how they'll open the 40-man roster spot. For me, I'd take McIver off. Seems unlikely to be going anywhere.

Varsho isn't a corner outfielder.
Lukes can play all 3 outfield positions.
Barger plays RF and 3B.
Sanchez is a a platoon corner outfield. He matches with the bench right handed bats.
Gimenez doesn't have huge splits, so platooning him isn't optional, but they still need an infield backup who plays a couple of times a week.
The other 3 guys are right handed so resting them offers even less.

Schneider down.

In one sense, the LHH OF situation isn’t really a problem because they don’t have any RHH OFs other than Straw (assuming, as appears to be the case, they don’t want to use Springer in the OF). The other reason is that only Varsho and Lukes are really OFs (and Barger if he comes back and can throw). Sanchez and Pinango are DHs who are basically interchangeable and freely available talent (see the Sanchez acquisition cost). So keep throwing bodies at the wall (Urias, Keys, etc) and see if something sticks. If you need a roster spot just cut Sanchez or option Pinango as needed.

SWR being released seems wrong on the surface 0 ERA in 10IP, but look just a bit deeper 7 walks 5 K's in those 10 IP. Yikes. If he can be stored in AAA great, but if not meh.

Don't care for Schneider down, but not many other choices if you want Keys up. Lukes the only other one with options (Valenzuela not going down of course). Urias has been hitting and playing OK at 2B.

Schneider optioned.
Sanchez to IL (ankle)
Keys and Pinango up

My problem with too many LH OFers isn't their deployment, it's the roster construction. Is there another team in baseball that carries three LH corner OFers with no open DH spot? It just creates duplication for no reason while Jays are in desperate need for a guy or two who can mash lefties.

Not good pitching and not good hitting. Just don’t see this team going to the playoffs this year. The young guys are interesting to follow, but Vlad and Springer look toasty. Without them I think the Jay’s need to start looking at the trade deadline for help for next year.

This team looks and feels very much like the 2024 Jays.

There isn’t lot to choose between Pinango and Sanchez (other than cost) but Pinango looks to me like he might be a slightly better hitter.

Fluharty looks exhausted.
It's too bad they don't trust Macko for anything other than mop up.

Pinangio - 136 PA, 4 HR, 283-331-433
Sanchez - 420 PA, 15 HR, 247-315-427
Really similar! Pinangio is younger and maybe there’s more chance for improvement; especially in the field.

Varsho just never ever, ever quits swinging at the high fastball.

Just absolutely one pathetic performance after another. Vlad has been one of the worst players in baseball for a pretty extended period and all the Jays do is shuffle him between second and third. It's not working! I didn't watch the game today and have almost no interest in watching anymore. Just a completely miserable team.

Guerrero hasn't been hitting and hasn't been running hard to first base. He has missed getting on first a couple of times because he trots out of the box.

Pinango is really a DH. With Springer still here, I would keep Pinango in AAA and plan on him being a DH next season.

You can see the difference between a good and not so good defensive team when you compare this year's team to last years. Clement, Varsho and Pinango/Sanchez are all noticeably worse than last season. Even Lukes today misplayed a ball.

This team is a conundrum for the front office. They are not playing well but close to a playoff spot. You always have to go for it when you are close but it could be a wasted effort.

Hayden Juenger who was Dfa'd this week has been traded to the Athletics. In exchange the Jays get an A ball level catcher.

What do they do with Vlad? That's clearly the million dollar question.
I'd love if they sent him down to Buffalo for 4-6 weeks but that'll never happen. Honestly though, I've never seen such poor at bats and him look so defeated.
It's almost a given he'll ground out to short 3 times per game.

Vlad isn't the million dollar question - I wish - he's the $500 million dollar question. I didn't think it was a great idea at the time, and I hope it's just a bad season, not the start of his decline..

His AB in the 9th looked like he had already given up before the pitch came in, and he just wanted to get the game over with. Does he maybe need vision correction?

Is it just me, or does the Jays M.O. with every pitcher seem to be "get ahead, then nibble until it's 3-2, then you have to come in and hope you can throw a weak strike - either it's ball 4, or a hit"? Why not actually throw a strike 1-2 or 2-2 once in a while - our pitching is way, way too predictable.

Oddly, the one player who has been good defensively is Vlad. Statcast has had him as a negative defender at 1st base each of the past 6 years, but he's a positive so far this season.

Pitchers are taught to throw a waste pitch on a 0-2 count. It's a cardinal sin to give up a hit in that count. I wonder why so many Jays hitter chase in that count. It's almost always a breaking ball or a change up off the plate. 

Cease seems unable to throw a high fast ball that worth swinging at. I don't know where he's trying to throw it.  A few inches above the strike zone would be best but they might just be trying to get hitters to fish. 

Once the count is 0-2, Cease is looking for a strikeout, not contact. So, ideally, he's hitting the corners, but they might want him to stay off the plate entirely.
A single walk isn't a big deal, since they can't square him off, but he's not holding the runners and Kirk hasn't thrown well recently.

Conversely, I don't see the Jays stealing much. I would think Lukes fast enough to take a bag on a breaking ball. They always talk about not taking the bat out of the hands of the big hitters, but Vladdy is more likely to hit into a double play than hitting it out of the park.
Stealing a bit more would distract the pitcher also.

I agree Cease needs to nibble less; but if we are nitpicking about the ‘26 Jays that’s way down the list of grievances. If the rest of the rotation would have stayed healthy/and or been more effective, the Cease lack of pitch efficiency would stand out less. He’s been pretty much as expected.

There’s some heavy lifting to be done at the deadline. As Gerry said, any overhaul, or even a major acquisition is risky. You give up top prospects to patch the holes and you risk mortgaging a lot of the future for a first round wildcard loss, or even miss the playoffs entirely.

Thw harsh reality is that you cannot augment this team into a legit contender without the internal failings being reversed.

I remember Cleveland last year so I'm not going to say anything can't be done, but this bunch goes as Vlad goes - when he's mediocre so is the team outcome. You could go trade for Buxton and Ryan and you wouldn't make this a team of the same caliber as last year.

I'm not saying that they should sell, I'm down for some marginal additions that don't cost us any of our top five or six prospects....but it won't put you in the playoffs unless they figure out how to drive in baserunners and how to fix Vlad.

The Guardians run last year basically was because their pitching (which was already good) went bonkers post August 1st. Their offense was never great, but it improved just enough to make sure they won a crap ton of games. And the Tigers had an awful July and an even worse August to come back to the pack. I don’t see the Yankees doing that. The division race is basically done, the question is, is there enough internal improvement over the next month to justify trading good prospects, risking it all being over in two days.

TamRa, I guess what I’m saying is, I think you are absolutely right.

I certainly could see the Gausman, Cease, Bieber, Yesavage foursome being good enough to be the main catalyst of a ‘25 Guardians style second half run for the Jays this year, as the career statistics and repetoires of those guys would support this possibility. But this team has got to get it together defensively, or there’s not a prayer it could ever happen. It’s hard to do because Pinago is so much more of a threat than Straw, but the difference between them in defense completely trumps that.

Would I trade, say, Pinango or McAdoo, or Dallas, or even Keyes for a run at the wild card? Sure. Historically almost no prospect the team trades at the deadline turns out to be the kind of guy you would rather have held on to when you look back in a few years. You basically have to go back to the David Price trade...and then wait a good little while until you say "Actually it was Matt Boyd we should have been bummed about, not Daniel Norris"

Of course, this has something to know which of your guys are the ones you really really should hang on to.

But no, I wouldn't do something stupid like trade King and Parker (for example) in a Skubal deal if I wasn't super confident I was gonna win the division.

I know he hit a homerun yesterday, so I'll give him credit for that, but the defence in the outfield from Pinango which was quite possibly the worst I've seen in a while.
He completely misplayed two lazy fly balls that led to a run and drove Cease's pitch count way up.

I think what this team could do to help right now is have someone (anyone) address the recent performance and call it out as unacceptable. Does it make the players physically stronger or more able to do better? Of course not, but fans love it when there's some accountability communicated vocally. The word is guys like Gausman are doing this but in the past you had guys like Donaldson or Bassitt speaking to media and laying it all on the line from calling out their teammates and themselves or the management.

I didn't see the game yesterday but I heard the Kirkie walked past Vlad and the HR jacket after his dinger which seemed to have won him over many fans online and on the radio.

https://www.reddit.com/r/sportswiki/comments/1uhl317/vladimir_guerrero_jr_got_rejected_when_trying_to/

It's actually worse than I thought. Did the TV broadcast show this replay or touch on the subject?

The Jays rank in the bottom 5-10 in MLB in almost all the important offensive categories. They don't hit for power, draw walks, or hit the ball hard collectively. The fact that Atkins was quoted recently suggested that starting pitching was a big team need (while true) is ignoring the giant elephant in the room. The offense stinks. The defense has taken a huge step back. This is not a good team by any objective measure. A month ago we had a discussion about how if the Jays were still 5+ games under .500 but only a few games out of first place that they should still sell (they won't). That remains true. I wouldn't trade a prospect with even a modicum of upside to add to this team unless it's someone with years of control left.

"This is not a good team by any objective measure."

I agree. This team stinks and it shows up in the stats. But I don't really get why the stats are so bad. What happened to those guys who could hit and play defense?

Wouldn't we all agree though that prospects or not, new additions or not - outside of a bonafide clean up hitter with power, this team will always be in a downward spiral (and bad) if there is no power or clutch from Vlad?

If your star player isn't performing and the team defense that you've hung your hat on has become worst in the league...that's a heck of a collapse. Jays I think are leading the league in errors.

Not many seem to think that a Trout trade would help and almost everyone agrees there are no other 3/4 hitters available to trade for.


So...I can see the FO just resigning themselves to "hope Vlad comes around and improve the starting pitching and we might get the pop from Barger or Santander." Not a great strategy to any of us but what else can they do?

On a Trout trade, the consensus seems to be:

Too injury prone
Too expensive (acquisition)
Too old
Not available
Too costly (salary)

Jays are tied for 4th in division and Red Sox!!! are 4 games back from them in what is one of their worst seasons on record.

Agree SK about Atkins quote. It was surprising. Yes, starting can be improved but offense is pathetic and a much bigger need. I see Keys is sitting today because Jays have to play Vladdy even if he goes 0/5 every day.

The Jays have the worst run differential in the division currently.

What happened to last year’s offense and defense?

On defense three things stand out to me: a) Father Time waits for no man - this seems particularly true for Varsho but collectively the team just seems slower and less athletic; b) the infield defensive alignment isn’t as good as last year (Gimenez is a better 2B than SS and Clement is a better 3B than 2B); and c) injuries and a lack of positional flexibility by the team has left a DH playing the OF most games.

On offense it’s three things as well: a) Vladdy and Springer (enough said); b) losing Bo (Okamoto has mostly but not completely replaced that offense); and c) pure hit sequencing and hitting with RISP.

There are some precedents with Vladdy's career worst slump.

Rafael Devers has recently turned things around and is at 14 HR.

Tatis Jr had similar power outage with lower launch angle similar to Vladdy and he's started to increase the production though still struggling in power department.

For the record, the Padres manager has dropped Tatis down to #5 in the line up where he hasn't hit since his rookie season. Devers has been moved up from 4th to 3rd with Arraez hitting before him and Eldridge behind which has helped.

I do wonder what Vlad would look like if he had another big bat like Devers or Trout behind him. Tatis and Trout maintain similar bat speed to Vlad which is 90% percentile or higher while Devers' speed continues to decline.

Nigel I think that's a very precise summary of this team and illustrates how decisions made before the season even started has helped to expedite the decline. Makes you wonder why they went with Okamoto over Bo unless they thought someone like Nimmala would be close to ready to take over 2nd and then Ernie would become your super utility.

I said at the time that I thought that the pivot to Okamoto was plan B after they determined that they wouldn’t land the other free agents that they were chasing. Okamoto always was a very awkward roster fit.

Keys is already sitting.

That comment from Atkins about starting pitching is odd in the context of this year but not in the longer term. Next year the SP depth goes Cease, Yesavage and pray for rain. If you’re optimistic you can pencil in Ponce but they are short a number of arms and zero help coming from the farm in the near term.

I think focusing on SP might be due to the fact that the team’s two biggest issues offensively are the ones they can’t (Vlad) or choose not to (Springer) upgrade on. Vlad for obvious reasons (worst contract in the sport without question at this point) and Springer because of loyalty, 10/5 rights, being one of the two hitters on the team with any potential to be a star offensively, etc. If Springer is cooked and Vlad is messed up, then really any offensive upgrade probably won’t even do anything.

I’m not sure what the answer is other than accepting that 2025 was the end of the Vlad/Bo era and pivoting. They tried to extend the window, it looked good on paper but failed for a multitude of reasons.

So many comments are about Springer and Vlad but I think unfair weighting is being given to Springer here as he's turned it around a bit lately, despite a poor last few games.

Let's compare:

May:

Vlad: 78 wRC+
Springer: 74 wRC+ 

June:

Vlad: 43 wRC+
Springer: 106 wRC+

I can’t help but wonder if Varland would have been available to close out the first game of this losing streak and put the team over .500 had he not pitched in a five-run game a week earlier.

And ya, the offence is unfixable if Vladdy sucks.

I'm not totally convinced about the age/personnel argument for the defense. Varsho fell off a cliff it seems. That doesn't seem like age. And with Bo replaced by Giménez the defense in the middle should be better overall.

I'm going to stick with idea for now that Varsho will not be the 2025 defensive guy he was -- but he'll improve from his so-far-in-2026-guy. And now that Kirk and soon Barger will be back the defense and offense will improve some.

As for Vladdy -- I can't figure it out.

Springer success in June was against lefties.
He's still been bad against rhp.

Even Varland can't stop the bleeding.

A ball ricocheting off the ump's shoulder up into the netting to score a runner from second is totally something that happened

The Jays have 3 games against the sad sack Mets and then nine on the west coast bringing them to the all star break. If they don't go at least 6-6 then its sell time.

You can make the argument that they should hold fast and fight for the playoffs given the weakness of the AL, but you can’t really make that argument watching the team play.

I didn't watch the end of the game but I watched all of Bieber's start and it was a hugely improved start.

The lead off homerun was on a high fastball right on the outside corner.

They could trade Springer and Varsho to free playing time for Keys and Pinango. Lukes/Straw can man CF and Barger will be back eventually. They can't trade starting pitching because they have nobody in AAA.

There is the funny thing - 2 vets who both might sneak into the all-star game (love the weirdness of the voting) would best help the team going forward by being traded. The way Atkins deals have worked out lately I'd expect something useful out of both deals. Here are the 2024 deals...

• Spring: Santiago Espinal for Chris McElvain (RHP AA 25 with a 6.09 ERA, not showing much)
• June: Biggio for Fisher - damn that worked well
• July: Yimi Garcia, Danny Jansen, Nate Pearson, Justin Turner, Yusei Kikuchi, Trevor Richards, IKF, Kiermaier all for Yarborough, McAdoo, Bloss (still might be something), Loperfido (turned into Sanchez), Wagner (turned into Brandon Valenzuela), Schreck, Pinango, and more. Lots of big wins there I'd say for guys who were gone at seasons end anyways outside of IKF who came back for the playoffs anyways (for good or ill).

If they need to dump guys again and have that kind of luck in the deals I'll be very happy and can live with a sub 500 season out of it. Heck, I got to go to a World Series game with my daughter last year, what more can I ask?

I wasn't on the desktop (where I'm logged in) most of the day so I'm catching up on the conversation:


"It's actually worse than I thought."

Hazel Mae: Ok guys, just wanted to set the record straight here.. what happened was the sleeve on the HR jacket was inside out and Vladdy was trying to fix it. Kirk was already by the dugout and didn’t want to stand there and wait. Really no drama here.

"losing Bo (Okamoto has mostly but not completely replaced that offense)"

After 83 games lasr year Bo was hitting .272/.311/.427/.738
After 83 games in '26 Kaz was .241/.322/.473/.795

" they are short a number of arms and zero help coming from the farm in the near term"

Not that I expect Atkins to rest their season on youth next year but...Bloss is on the cusp once he gets some polish back, Tiedemann would be in AAA if he could stay healthy (I'm not saying he can, but he's not years of development away), Francis will be healthy by ST barring a setback (not a kid but not years away), Dallas is probably marginal but he's as ready as he's going to get, Stanifer will probably be in Buffalo by August - he might not be fully developed next spring but he fairly close. Thompson seems to be developing fast. Might be an option in the second half next year.

Not that I disagree that he's love to acquire at least one more year of control (Ryan? Alcantara?) and all the more so if making a run this year seems iffy.

"I think unfair weighting is being given to Springer here as he's turned it around a bit lately"

5/18-6/22 (29 games) .265/.359/.478/.837 team went 17-12
Then 1/17 before today. It's fair to not ignore the previous month over a 4-game slump. I agree that since mid-May, saying "Vlad and George" really isn't fair. Since the last game in May, Vlad's line is .193/.232/.261/.493

"Springer success in June was against lefties."

I'm only skilled enough to look at starters, but during the 29 games I described above he was 9/33 in games started by an opposing LH - that's .273 though he did have a double and 4 homers in those games which is not nothing but it's not a massive skew

"They could trade Springer"

Springer has no-trade protection (not sure if it's a contract clause or 5&10 but the latter would do it)

I'm not going to indulge the "it's over,we're doomed" instincts for now but I do think it is fair to say that this is gut check time.

They have a month to show everyone that they are worth investing in at the deadline. They have to go 18-12 just to be .500 on deadline day, for example. To really give the decision makers confidence you'd like to be actually OVER .500 by Say August 2. That's 28 games or 17-11 to get to .500

There's three intimidating series in there (Seattle, Tampa Bay, and San Diego) but there's also a rematch against the White Sox and so far the Cards are not slacking off. IF they are at or over .500 after playing the cards that can be considered a legit turn-around and worth either some marginal investment in trying to win this year or something more ambitious to get more than a rental (again, if the Angels are stubborn on Detmers then Ryan is your ideal here)

But if not then it would be perfectly fair to clear the decks somewhat. In fact, and I SERIOUSLY don't think this is what the FO will choose, I wouldn't mind if they looked at the pending contract war and decided to kind of coast until it was past and if that ends up with a less ambitious team in '27 it wouldn't be crazy.

It's clear that the "Glue Jays" are in the past so you can't rely too much on keeping the friends together. Barring a big run this year, '27 is (especially) a year for resetting and thinking ahead. In that context, I'd like to know what they actually have in Bloss and Tiedemann and Harry and Macko and Coleman and Stanifer and so forth.

The massive question - among non-pitchers - is who's gonna be your CF next year? We can no longer just assume the answer is "throw some money at Varsho"

Question for the room: At the right price would you bring him back and move him to left? Are his new defensive shortcomings the sort that are really only a problem in center? I don't have a scout's eye for such things.

Is it possible that the Jays could clear out some contracts and at the same time become a better team? What if they traded Sanchez, Gimenez and Springer. The outfield becomes Varsho, Lukes, Straw and Schneider. Pinangio becomes a semi-regular DH. Okamoto, Keys, Guerrero and Pinangio find playing time shuffling between 3B, 1B and DH. Harry replaces Gimenez. When Barger comes back another move will be required. I’d much rather watch that team with a hopeful eye to the future. This doesn’t solve the starting pitching. Heck, might not solve the hitting and defensive woes. Cease, Gausman, Yesavage, Beiber and Miles/Macko might hold the fort for a couple of weeks. Bloss could also help, but a trade deadline move makes good sense, also with an eye to next year. Would that team be at least as good as the one on the field these days? (Also, ssshhh, move Vlad down in the lineup and give Keys some run.)

"Are his new defensive shortcomings the sort that are really only a problem in center?"

I don't think so. I was on the train of giving him extensions last year on the basis of his hitting turning a corner, but this year has been really disappointing. His arm has always been average at best, and while I think it is slightly better this year than post-injury last year, it is still weak. But the biggest problem IMHO based on what I've seen this year (which admittedly is more condensed games than full games, but some full games) is with his read and first jump. That used to be what was at the absolute most elite with him, but this year he's not infrequently been bad with moves in the wrong direction or freezing. That would likely carry over from CF to LF. It does make me wonder if he's developing vision problems (or even just going from above average vision to normal vision) and if something like that might be correctable.

Boston just swept the Yankees in 4.
The division is pretty much out of reach but a wild card isn't.

Varsho was the big left bat they needed, but it's hard to see him in that light.
He has an opportunity to take advantage of ABS to force pitchers to throw him more pitches in the zone, but he hasn't done that.
The vertical aspect of the strike zone should be the easiest to take advantage of.
He should know exactly when a high fastball is a ball even if the ump doesn't.
The Astros hitters seems to have figured this out.

I think Varsho is just going through normal age-related decline. CF D often does decline around 30 and he's gone from 99th percentile range to 95th to 83rd. He's gotten slower. His sprint speed is down from 70-80th percentile to around 50th percentile. All this is pretty normal and he's still a valuable player but this was always the danger of extending someone with skills that tend to decline earlier.

No question the Jays are getting close to the 'what direction' stage. A bad slump for July and they are out of it. Get hot and they are in it. 10 1/2 out of the division (Rays), 2 1/2 out of the Wild Card. Spending prospect capital to get a WC isn't a good idea imo. Pending FA's Springer (no trade protection), Gausman, Bieber, Varsho, Garcia (worthless right now), Scherzer (worthless), Sanchez has 1 more year pre-free agency. The big 3 could get some nice pieces for the future potentially (Gausman-Bieber-Varsho) I'd think. The rotation would be a nightmare for 2026 then, but if the year is wrote off at the end of July then who cares? Should they be 5+ games out of the WC July 25th then I'd say it is time to clear out what you can and prepare for '27. If they are within 2 of the WC I'd be tempted to add, especially if Vlad is starting to get hot at long last (the biggest variable imo). So many factors, not the least of which is wanting to keep those full houses and TV ratings up. I could see them being pressured to stay as is no matter what by ownership.

That makes a lot of sense June. I’m being somewhat hypothetical with the trade suggestions. And yes, I’d forgotten Springer has a no trade clause. Could he be persuaded to forego that? Not much would be returned from those trades, but they’d open roster spots and create opportunities for team improvements.

I haven't seen anything that makes me think that they should be sellers.  I do think that one of Springer and Guerrero Jr. should be resting against RHP until the All-Star break, with Keys being given a good run until then.  It takes guts for a manager to do that, but the object is to win.  Pretending that nothing is wrong won't help the team to win.  

I think what the numbers for Varsho tell us is that numbers don't tell the whole story. On balance it looks okay or even improved but watching the games Daulton Varsho has cost his pitchers some runs this year that he wouldn't have in past years and he's also definitely not made those "wow" catches which seemed to happen every once in awhile before. I think he's in a contract year and doesn't want to get injured again. He's been injured trying to run hard in the basepaths before and he's been injured crashing into the wall. He looks really awkward this year in the field as if he's afraid to run backward or sideways at high speed. It looks to me like he keeps trying to square up his body to the ball with his back to the outfield fence while at the same time not wanting to go full out for any ball that may drop between him and his Left and Right field partners. That play this past week where he ran to the wall and crashed into it was a bit cringy...in the past he would have made that play whereas this year he didn't make it and he looked completely wonky NOT making it.

Springer has an 8-team no trade clause.
He could be approached about playing less or playing elsewhere.

Springer has 5 and 10 rights.

I think the next 12 games could define John Schneider's tenure as manager. He won't be fired before managing the AL All-Star team on July 14th - but the longer he goes trying the same things and getting the same results, the more likely it is that he'll become the scapegoat for the team's - and specifically Vlad's - underperformance. The Phillies are 38-18 under Mattingly after starting 9-19 under Thomson; I'm guessing the FO will go this route before being deadline sellers - there's simply too much interest in the team right now to concede two months of the season.

Wouldn't Springer in the OF be better than running an OF of Lukes, Varsho and Barger (three lefties)? Barger isn't even back yet. I'm not ready to move Springer so that Varsho and Pinango get more playing time together while keeping Valenzuela or Lirk on the bench.

Good point Dalimon! Using one of Kirk or Valenzuela in the DH role instead of Springer would be a positive. Pinangio faces RHP. Not really fussy about seeing Springer in the outfield, unless it’s for a showcase.

Against a right handed pitcher, 9 left bats is optional.
Kirk usually needs a month to get going.
They are running out of games to get people going.
It's time to play whoever hits.

Agreed scottt - I'm sad they aren't doing an alternating catcher situation - Kirk one day, Valenzuela the next, then Kirk, then Valenzuela, etc. Never too long off, never pushed too far. Now, maybe they don't get in a rhythm or something that way, I'm not a pro athlete by any stretch, but right now that would make a ton of sense to me at least.

As to what to do about Vlad & Springer - ugh. Not easy. In June Vlad has a 37 wRC+. Thirty Seven. How the heck does that happen? His wRC+ in June was sub 100 once - 2019 87. Next worst June was 2023 at 117. Right now a 117 wRC+ from Vlad would be heaven. Last year his June was a 151, best was 2021 220. July 2020 was a 21 in just 30 PA, 166 last year (oh for a Vlad that does that). 203 in 2024. August the worst was a 98 in '23, 127 last year, best 2024 214. 2019 was his worst Sept/Oct at 46, best was a 161 in '21, 119 last year.

What am I saying? That his June was, for Vlad, historically bad. This is a nightmare situation for the Jays. The one guy they NEED to play well for 14 years is collapsing. Wonder if he is hurt and hiding it?

As to Schneider - I'd be very shocked if he was fired. He was groomed for this job, he does what the front office wants him to do. Unless Vlad has a specific guy in mind who he'd play better for, or there is a clubhouse issue we haven't heard of, I just don't see why he'd be dumped. Yeah, the team is underperforming, but that is mostly due to Vlad/Springer and an insane stretch of injuries to starting pitchers.