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I'm now convinced that whatever is afflicting the Blue Jays is not just bad luck. It wasn't the spate of injuries that sold me, though they provide the supporting evidence. It wasn't the end of Iron Man Tom Cheek's legendary broadcasting streak.

What convinced me?

The Cheer Club are dropping like flies due to injury. I linked my own groin strain to an overzealous attempt to learn how to play golf on my holiday. I chalked up the pain in my back to the same incident when it arrived a week later. But I got an e-mail this morning from Bird Droppings, our intrepid Cheer Club drummer, saying that he tore something in his shoulder and cannot drum, explaining his absence over the last homestand.

Well, that proves it, folks: someone has placed a bona fide curse on our beloved Toronto Blue Jays. Now I'm not going to try to figure out who did it, because if syndicated television has taught me anything it's that curses are awfully hard to trace. But what I am going to try to do is fight it, and I need your help for that.

I am not an experienced curse fighter, but syndicated television has also taught me that the second best way to end a curse is to appeal to the god or gods who are overseeing the curse, and in this case that means the Baseball Gods.

I need some assistance in this matter. Firstly, we must gather at a temple to the Baseball Gods. Luckily for those of us in Toronto, I believe that the SkyDome counts. Specifically, I think we should make a pilgrimage to the Level of Excellence before one or all of the home games next week and make an offering of 11 items before the banner of the mighty George Bell.

So, I need 11 suggestions (and remember, they have to be things that we can bring into SkyDome, so no booze, no glass bottles, and no fire) and I need a bunch of people to perform the ceremony with me.
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The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
_Moffatt - Friday, June 18 2004 @ 09:51 AM EDT (#56922) #
We should tear up the baseball cards of 11 players who have hurt the Jays in the past.

My first suggestion Jim Sundberg for his triple in Game 7 for the Royals in the 1985 ALCS.
_Mick - Friday, June 18 2004 @ 09:54 AM EDT (#56923) #
Frank Tanana.
_Paul D - Friday, June 18 2004 @ 09:59 AM EDT (#56924) #
E______ L______'s baseball card.

I think the baseball Gods would probably appreciate a jersey even more, but where are you going to get that?

What about a Kenny Williams card?
_Moffatt - Friday, June 18 2004 @ 10:04 AM EDT (#56925) #
E______ L______'s baseball card.

I knew someone was going to suggest that. I was thinking more of players who did something big against the Jays in a game, a la, Jim Sundberg, but we might not have 11 altogether. So EL seems like a good pick.

We should be able to come up with enemies from the following seasons:

1984
1985 (Sundberg)
1987 (Tanana)
1988
1989
1990
1991

Anyone got any more ideas?
_Ryan Day - Friday, June 18 2004 @ 10:05 AM EDT (#56926) #
I think you've got to sacrifice Mark McLemore. That guy would be a hall of famer if he got to play the Jays every game.
Coach - Friday, June 18 2004 @ 10:12 AM EDT (#56927) #
Does it have to be player-related stuff? A picture of Gord Ash in his Dr. Evil getup would have very bad mojo.

My vote is for Tuesday. This can't be done soon enough, I won't be able to make it on Wednesday, and Thursday is a matinee. Also, if B.D. can bring the O-Drum, there will be no shortage of replacement drummers available and willing to fill in while he's on the DL.
_Moffatt - Friday, June 18 2004 @ 10:14 AM EDT (#56928) #
Does it have to be player-related stuff? A picture of Gord Ash in his Dr. Evil getup would have very bad mojo.

I like it!

Where's NFH? He should have all kinds of suggestions.
Named For Hank - Friday, June 18 2004 @ 10:16 AM EDT (#56929) #
I'm here. Sadly, it looks like the Dome security folks are not keen on this idea, so we'll have to find an alternative venue. Like, say, the goofy fish-pond where all the scalpers hang out, near gate 5.
_The Original Ry - Friday, June 18 2004 @ 10:17 AM EDT (#56930) #
I think you've got to sacrifice Mark McLemore.

I thought the team's philosophy was that sacrifices aren't productive. :-)
Named For Hank - Friday, June 18 2004 @ 10:18 AM EDT (#56931) #
I thought the team's philosophy was that sacrifices aren't productive

Brilliant! That's why these are "offerings". ;)
_Jobu - Friday, June 18 2004 @ 10:35 AM EDT (#56932) #
I said it before, and I'll say it again, this is all the work of that dammned CRUSTY OLD DEAN!! I'd want to "offer" his portrait to appease the Baseball Gods.

That, and people should present Jobu with rum and nice bucket of fried chicken ;)
_Jobu - Friday, June 18 2004 @ 10:36 AM EDT (#56933) #
NFH: Something should also be done about your cursed hat.
_Rob - Friday, June 18 2004 @ 10:39 AM EDT (#56934) #
Sadly, it looks like the Dome security folks are not keen on this idea, so we'll have to find an alternative venue.

How about outside Alice Fazooli's, in honour of Tom Cheek?
robertdudek - Friday, June 18 2004 @ 10:45 AM EDT (#56935) #
Madlock - 1987 - for the rollblock that took out Tony Fernandez.
_Moffatt - Friday, June 18 2004 @ 10:46 AM EDT (#56936) #
Nice! I had forgotten about that one.
_MatO - Friday, June 18 2004 @ 10:54 AM EDT (#56937) #
The turf at Cleveland Municipal Stadium which caused the bad hop over Manny Lee's head and made Stieb to lose his no-hitter.
Named For Hank - Friday, June 18 2004 @ 11:09 AM EDT (#56938) #
Alice Fazooli's, now that's funny. They might like it, too.

MatO, that turf idea is great. We'll bring some unidentified grass and call it Cleveland Municipal Stadium turf.
Named For Hank - Friday, June 18 2004 @ 11:13 AM EDT (#56939) #
I like the Madlock one, too. Now, where can we find baseball cards of all these guys that won't cost us an arm and a leg? I don't know my Toronto baseball card stores.

An Offering Representing the Greatest Enemies of the Toronto Blue Jays.
_Moffatt - Friday, June 18 2004 @ 11:14 AM EDT (#56940) #
If they're from 1985-1990, I probably have 'em.
Named For Hank - Friday, June 18 2004 @ 11:19 AM EDT (#56941) #
Are you willing to give them up?
_Moffatt - Friday, June 18 2004 @ 11:20 AM EDT (#56942) #
Absolutely. It's for a good cause.

I'll hunt up a Sundberg, a Tanana, a Madlock, and anyone else we can think of.
Joe - Friday, June 18 2004 @ 11:22 AM EDT (#56943) #
http://me.woot.net
Is it at all possible that, through some sort of Damn Yankees arrangement, we've been cursed since 1993?

If so, I have a 1992 World Series Champions Coke can that I'd be willing to donate to the cause.
_Moffatt - Friday, June 18 2004 @ 11:31 AM EDT (#56944) #
If so, I have a 1992 World Series Champions Coke can that I'd be willing to donate to the cause.

Nah. That'd be sacrilege.

Any more enemies? We should be able to come up with quite a few.
Thomas - Friday, June 18 2004 @ 11:32 AM EDT (#56945) #
I'll throw some more recent names out there to see if anyone likes them. I don't remember specifics from the 80's at all.

Norberto Martin in the name of terrible Jays relief pitching.
Al Leiter in the name of injuries.
_The Original Ry - Friday, June 18 2004 @ 11:32 AM EDT (#56946) #
"Is it at all possible that, through some sort of Damn Yankees arrangement..."

There's a fire in my heart,
A pounding in my brain, it's driving me crazy.

We don't need to talk about it anymore.
Yesterday's just a memory; can we close the door?


Seems appropriate.
Named For Hank - Friday, June 18 2004 @ 11:32 AM EDT (#56947) #
John Kruk?

Last year's D-Rays?
_Moffatt - Friday, June 18 2004 @ 11:41 AM EDT (#56948) #
I was more thinking about who the Jays "Bucky Dents" are:

George Brett hit 2 homers in Game 3 of the 1985 ALCS. If the Jays win that game, they're up 3-0 in the series. He's certainly a Bucky Dent for the Jays.

Danny Jackson shuts out the Jays in Game 5 of that series. That has to count.

Plus Jim Sundberg in Game 7.
_Alex Obal - Friday, June 18 2004 @ 11:42 AM EDT (#56949) #
We should get someone to commission a Phil Cuzzi baseball card.
_Moffatt - Friday, June 18 2004 @ 11:42 AM EDT (#56950) #
We should get someone to commission a Phil Cuzzi baseball card.

LOL. I like it!

We could always just use a photo or something.
_Moffatt - Friday, June 18 2004 @ 11:43 AM EDT (#56951) #
The Jays aren't the only team that have had trouble with Mr. Cuzzi:

Named For Hank - Friday, June 18 2004 @ 11:47 AM EDT (#56952) #
I love the idea of Phil Cuzzi, but I think it's better to stick to players, because when we term them "enemies", y'know, they're supposed to be enemies and I really doubt they'd be offended.

Brett is a great one.
Dave Till - Friday, June 18 2004 @ 11:55 AM EDT (#56953) #
Any list of Blue Jays enemies has to include Tippy Martinez.

One problem with adding names to the Jays' enemies list is that some of the enemies went on to become future Jays (Rickey, Canseco, Morris, Parker) or were formerly Jays (Alexander). Maybe you can just sacrifice part of those guys' baseball cards, and reverentially preserve the good bits.

Could you also somehow ritually sacrifice something representing George Steinbrenner and John Henry's wallets?
_Jobu - Friday, June 18 2004 @ 12:00 PM EDT (#56954) #
Hasn't anyone nominated Mr. Clemens and Mr. Mondesi yet? Seem like obvious choices.
_Nigel - Friday, June 18 2004 @ 12:05 PM EDT (#56955) #
For '84 it has to be a Tiger. Morris, Petry or Hernandez seem like obvious choices but I was trying to remember which Tiger took Roy Lee Jackson deep in extra innings in a big series after about a 15(?) pitch at bat. It was kind of the defining moment of the season. The Tigers always found a way to win that year (35-5 to start the season) and the Jays pen was oderiferous (to be polite).
_The Original Ry - Friday, June 18 2004 @ 12:12 PM EDT (#56956) #
Could you also somehow ritually sacrifice something representing George Steinbrenner and John Henry's wallets?

You could probably find some cheap nylon wallet with the Yankees logo on it, or get something like this.
_Jonny German - Friday, June 18 2004 @ 12:15 PM EDT (#56957) #
To me, Dennis Eckersley was the face of the much-hated A's of 1989.

Who were the key Twins in the 1991 playoffs? Who were the key Red Sox in the 1990 stretch run?
_grum@work - Friday, June 18 2004 @ 12:20 PM EDT (#56958) #
How about a Kenny Williams baseball card for his "damaged goods" trade involving Mike Sirotka?
Dave Till - Friday, June 18 2004 @ 12:22 PM EDT (#56959) #
I was trying to remember which Tiger took Roy Lee Jackson deep in extra innings in a big series after about a 15(?) pitch at bat. It was kind of the defining moment of the season.

My memory tells me that it was Dave Bergman.

A quick search of baseball-reference.com and Retrosheet turned up the June 4, 1984 game, which was won by the Tigers over the Jays in 10 innings. Bergman hit the game-winning home run off Roy Lee Jackson in that game. I remember watching the game: Jackson was a notoriously slow worker - the Steve Trachsel of his day - so the at-bat went on forever.
Named For Hank - Friday, June 18 2004 @ 12:33 PM EDT (#56960) #
You could probably find some cheap nylon wallet with the Yankees logo on it, or get something like this.

Excellent! And we could put a Jeter and A-Rod card inside it.
_Nigel - Friday, June 18 2004 @ 12:41 PM EDT (#56961) #
Dave - Thanks, it was Bergman. It's amazing how after twenty years that AB still stands out in my memory.
_S.K. - Friday, June 18 2004 @ 12:47 PM EDT (#56962) #
I haven't read all the remarks on this thread, so forgive me if I'm repeating anything here, but I think we're missing the obvious answer. The uniforms. Is it really a coincidence that almost every damn player on the team goes on the DL, most of the prospects stall, an iron-man announcer has health trouble, and the team plummets to last place in the same year we get the most hideous, unattractive, and unnecessary uniforms in the history of Canadian sports? It's a curse, I tell ya, CURSE!

The only logical thing would be to burn the damn things into ashes, but you mentioned no fire, so I guess that's out of the question.
_Ryan Day - Friday, June 18 2004 @ 12:48 PM EDT (#56963) #
Dave Berg...
Dave Bergman...

I think we've stumbled upon the problem.
_Ryan Day - Friday, June 18 2004 @ 12:49 PM EDT (#56964) #
If it were about the uniforms, then the entire 1977 team should have fallen down an elevator shaft.
_Moffatt - Friday, June 18 2004 @ 12:51 PM EDT (#56965) #
If it were about the uniforms, then the entire 1977 team should have fallen down an elevator shaft.

No kidding.

It may be the uniform change, but c'mon, last year's uniforms were far worse from a design perspective. I'm still not a huge fans of the new hats or the black uni, but the new whites and greys are much better than anything the Jays have ever had.
_Jobu - Friday, June 18 2004 @ 12:54 PM EDT (#56966) #
Maybe Terry Adams not only sabotages their efforts on the field, but also sabotages equipment to give the Blue Jays injuries... i mean it's a little too obvious he's working for someone else. He shows up on the team with good stats, then constantly blows leads and the Jays are droping like flies but he's sound as a pound. He got greedy going after players, I think he's exposing himself.
_ATL Dave - Friday, June 18 2004 @ 01:07 PM EDT (#56967) #
Howabout a card of that fat load David Wells? He crapped on all of us on the way out.
_GT - Friday, June 18 2004 @ 01:09 PM EDT (#56968) #
Who were the key Twins in the 1991 playoffs?

Mike Pagliarulo?
_Daryn - Friday, June 18 2004 @ 01:18 PM EDT (#56969) #
Bill Lamp? for taking millions and doing nothing...

Jose Canseco for bringing the 5th level into "play" for the first time as an A in the 1989 ALCS

Rickey Henderson, cause he did more damage as an A, in 89 than he ever did "good" in 93.

Jimy Williams for ummm well...do I have to say?

Bobby Cox for bailing just when things were looking good in 1985..

Joe Brinkman...

The Entire Kansas City Roster....
_James W - Friday, June 18 2004 @ 01:26 PM EDT (#56970) #
91 Playoffs.. Danny Gladden, Kirby Puckett, Jack Morris, Kent Hrbek.
_The Original Ry - Friday, June 18 2004 @ 01:38 PM EDT (#56971) #
I'd go with Tom Glavine. Had the Blue Jays not signed Lamp that year, they wouldn't have lost their first round draft pick, which supposedly would have been used to take Glavine.
_Jobu - Friday, June 18 2004 @ 02:13 PM EDT (#56972) #
How about that racist Chicago newspaper writer? Didnt he curse the team at some point?
_whizland2000 - Friday, June 18 2004 @ 02:14 PM EDT (#56973) #
it must be the work of satan himself (George Steinbrenner)!!!!!!!!
_Rob - Friday, June 18 2004 @ 02:20 PM EDT (#56974) #
Actually, Jeffrey F. Loria is Satan. Steinbrenner is just a goof with a lot of money.
_Stan - Friday, June 18 2004 @ 03:59 PM EDT (#56975) #
I agree with Joe Brinkman. Also Joey McGlaughlin
_jason - Friday, June 18 2004 @ 04:11 PM EDT (#56976) #
Is anyone willing to offer up millions of points and a cuttlefish? What better gesture to appease the gods than a cuttlefish sacrifice?
_Magpie - Friday, June 18 2004 @ 04:24 PM EDT (#56977) #
Remember Tom Brunansky? Boston 1990. Played like a slug all season long, and then absolutely wore out the Jays in September and made that sliding catch in the last game against the ChiSox.

1983 - Tippy, for sure.

1984 - Dave Bergman

1985 - George Brett

1986 - I nominate Bill Buckner! The Jays finally crawled to within reach of Boston by the beginning of September, and Buckner was the key to an 11 game win streak that the Red Sox ran off.

1987 - Don't forget Larry Herndon

1988 - No one comes to mind

1989 - Rickey, Rickey, Rickey

1990 - Brunansky. And those lousy Red Sox starters who came up with great games against the Jays: who were they? Dana Kiecker? Greg Harris?

1991 - Mike Pagliarulo. The turning point.
_Niles - Friday, June 18 2004 @ 05:32 PM EDT (#56978) #
Mitch Williams?
_Nolan - Friday, June 18 2004 @ 05:50 PM EDT (#56979) #
This ceremony is supposed to "sacrifice" of those who have hurt the Jays, but is there any way we could call up the good luck that other opponents brought for the Jays.

For instance, Jack McDowell, Mitch The Wild Thing Williams, and Dennis Eckerseley come to mind as every time those names are mentioned together with the Jays, better times are remembered.
Craig B - Friday, June 18 2004 @ 06:09 PM EDT (#56980) #
Tippy, yes, Tippy! Tippy must be among them.
_Fawaz K - Friday, June 18 2004 @ 06:10 PM EDT (#56981) #
You're all barking up the wrong tree. An offering is supposed to please the Gods; giving them Loaiza would likely piss them off and cause infighting between the deities. We must offer something near and dear to us...A replica of a WS banner.
robertdudek - Friday, June 18 2004 @ 06:26 PM EDT (#56982) #
I look at it as more a symbolic destruction of the evil spirits haunting the Jays. For that reason I think Tippy Martinez, Bill Madlock and Jim Sundberg and perhaps a few others are probably the most important negative forces in Blue Jays history (I personally believe that the Madlock take out of Fernandez is the single most traumatic event in Jays history).

I'd add Bill Caudill, Randy Myers and Benito Santiago to the mix as high priced signings that utterly failed us. Gord Ash must surely be included; and Kenny Williams as well.
_JBR - Friday, June 18 2004 @ 09:59 PM EDT (#56983) #
Enemies:

1984 Any Detroit Tiger
1985 Jim Sundberg
1987 Frank Tanana or Larry Herndon or Kirk Gibson (the HR off Henke) or BILL MADLOCK (the hit on Tony Fernandez)
1988 ??
1989 Rickey Henderson or Jose Canseco
1990 Tom Brunansky
1991 Mike Pagliarulo
_A - Friday, June 18 2004 @ 11:23 PM EDT (#56984) #
Bobby Higginson for not only breaking up HLH's bid for the perfect game but also destroying his hopes of a CG shutout (would have been the first of his career).
_Rob - Saturday, June 19 2004 @ 12:12 PM EDT (#56985) #
http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/B09270TOR1998.htm
Higginson didn't break up a perfect game (COMN), it would have been "just" a no-hitter but he's a good choice anyway.

Did anyone else know that the last batter (i.e., the one after Higginson) in that game was Frank Catalanotto? I didn't.

Other facts:
- Game time was 1:45, attendance 38036
- Stewart, Green, Canseco, Delgado, Cruz, Fernandez, Fletcher, Grebeck, Gonzalez was the Jays' lineup
- Felipe Crespo replaced Grebeck at second for reasons unknown and committed an error, costing HLH the perfect game at the time.
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