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It's okay, today's game is still a 4:05 pm start -- I just need to post the thread now before heading out for the afternoon. Today is Chasing Steinbrenner Day, starting at Tom Cheek's favourite hangout Alice Fazooli's, then moving on to Section 518 at the Dome, as author Rob Bradford shows up to answer questions, sign books, and join Bauxites at what should be a bang-up ballgame with the Cheer Club. This is a red-letter occasion, and if you still haven't signed up, don't let yourself miss this once-a-year opportunity: click on the home page link and get your last-minute RSVP into Coach right now!

It's also Homecoming Day for Kelvim Escobar, one of the most talented players ever to come up through the Blue Jays system, and certainly one of the most frustrating. The Jays organization can take three lessons from Escobar's Toronto career: (1) don't promote young pitchers to the majors too soon, (2) give young pitchers a consistent role and let them stick with it during good times and bad, and (3) don't overpay to keep your wildly inconsistent free agents. Gord Ash & Co. didn't know the first two, and Jays fans should be very happy that the Ricciardi administration knew the third.

Escobar will be matched up against Ted Lilly in a pairing full of ironies: Lilly is the All-Star that many thought Escobar should have been during his time in Toronto; Lilly is putting up numbers as good or better than Escobar's at one-third the price; and Lilly was essentially acquired for Shannon Stewart (via Bobby Kielty), a move that, like the jettisoning of Escobar, was decried locally for any number of reasons -- but with Stewart now on the DL for over a month in Minnesota, and Lilly giving the Jays their best lefty starter since Jimmy Key, doesn't look so bad after all. Whatever misfortunes have befallen the Jays this year, they would have been no better (if not substantially worse) had Stewart and Escobar still been on the team and in possession of rich, multi-year contracts.

Game 87: Chasing Escobar | 78 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
_Paul S - Saturday, July 10 2004 @ 02:59 PM EDT (#52642) #
Lineups, courtesy of Yahoo.

Anaheim at Toronto

Anaheim 45-40 (Road: 22-22) 4:05pm
Toronto 39-47 (Home: 23-21) ET

Anaheim

D. Eckstein ss
C. Figgins 2b
G. Anderson cf
V. Guerrero rf
J. Guillen lf
D. Erstad 1b
T. Salmon dh
B. Molina c
S. Halter 3b

Toronto

F. Menechino 2b
C. Gomez ss
R. Johnson cf
C. Delgado 1b
E. Hinske 3b
A. Rios rf
J. Phelps dh
D. Berg lf
K. Cash c

Yaaay! Shane Halter! So, that's at least 3 guanranteed outs.
_greenfrog - Saturday, July 10 2004 @ 03:15 PM EDT (#52643) #
It will be interesting to see whether the Jays pull off any trades over the next few weeks. So far the only rumour I've heard is the Twins' interest in Miguel Batista; though apparently they don't intend to give up any significant prospects. Good luck, is all I have to say. Anyone have any bright ideas (that have a remote chance of happening)?
_Andrew K - Saturday, July 10 2004 @ 03:18 PM EDT (#52644) #
I would have thought that Cat, Zaun, and the bullpen arson squad are the only ones JP would let go. I don't honestly think we'd get much in return, except maybe for Cat. Can we really get a prospect good enough to displace our up-and-comers? I doubt it. Let's stick with who we have.
_Nolan - Saturday, July 10 2004 @ 03:31 PM EDT (#52645) #
Well, with Houston in need of some bullpen help, JP might find a trading partner with them...I read somewhere that Houston was looking at some of the Jays relief pitchers (don't have a link for that as it was a few days ago and I have no idea which website I read on)
_Magpie - Saturday, July 10 2004 @ 03:50 PM EDT (#52646) #
Lineup correction: Guillen is the DH and Tim Salmon makes his first career start (2nd appearance) min LF.

Don't get too giddy about Shane Halter. In 8 career AB against Ted Lilly, he is 4-8 with a pair of HRs.
_Paul S - Saturday, July 10 2004 @ 03:51 PM EDT (#52647) #
Isn't that nice of Terry Ryan to want a good starting pitcher locked up for fair value and not want to part with any value. That's exactly how trades are supposed to work!

I say they offer Morneau or JP hangs up on him.
_Emerald - Saturday, July 10 2004 @ 03:55 PM EDT (#52648) #
As I recall last time Anaheim was in town Halter had some big hits, although in the end they didn't amount to much.
_Andrew K - Saturday, July 10 2004 @ 04:00 PM EDT (#52649) #
I remember Halter hitting a HR off Hentgen. But then again, who didn't?
_Jim - Saturday, July 10 2004 @ 04:01 PM EDT (#52650) #
AAAAHHHHH

No MLB TV :(
_Andrew K - Saturday, July 10 2004 @ 04:05 PM EDT (#52651) #
I know, and it's the first game this week that's at a time when I am awake... I had to watch all the others on archive the next day.
_Andrew K - Saturday, July 10 2004 @ 04:07 PM EDT (#52652) #
Hey! The Box gets a big mention on the radio. Sounds like JP gave the guys a lot of info... looking forward to reading it later.
_Emerald - Saturday, July 10 2004 @ 04:12 PM EDT (#52653) #
Escobar and Lilly's numbers are very similar (ERA, IP, H, baa against), except that Lilly has more K's and BB's, and wins, and makes a third of the money. Excellent...
_Nolan - Saturday, July 10 2004 @ 04:16 PM EDT (#52654) #
So, you guys know that Armando Rios is playing well for the Jays lately?...Gotta love TSN
Joe - Saturday, July 10 2004 @ 04:18 PM EDT (#52655) #
http://me.woot.net
Andrew K,

What was said?

(We should really make that a general rule - no referring to something neat like that without describing the plug!)
_Andrew K - Saturday, July 10 2004 @ 04:21 PM EDT (#52656) #
I can't remember exactly what was said. It was the author of the book, saying that he'd been to this event. Jerry said something like "and there were lots of kids there?" and was corrected about the ages of the participants! Then the author said that JP had stopped by -- he had been supposed to stay for 10 minutes but actually talked with everybody for much much longer.

I can't wait for the writeup. All those questions we wanted asked, no doubt got asked. What a score!
_Andrew K - Saturday, July 10 2004 @ 04:22 PM EDT (#52657) #
Nolan,

What annoyed me was the Seattle commentators on tv, who kept referring to Rios as "Ree-hoce"; I presume they were thinking of
something analogous to Pujols.
_HBE - Saturday, July 10 2004 @ 04:26 PM EDT (#52658) #
The revolving door in the TSN Jays PBP seat continues. First Paul Romanuk, now Gord Miller. What hockey guy is next?
_Emerald - Saturday, July 10 2004 @ 04:27 PM EDT (#52659) #
Kevin Cat behind the plate today. I can't think of any hitter that swings at that pitch besides Vlade.
_Emerald - Saturday, July 10 2004 @ 04:28 PM EDT (#52660) #
Pierre McGuire, coming to a baseball broadcast booth near you!
_Paul S - Saturday, July 10 2004 @ 04:30 PM EDT (#52661) #
Pierre Maguire will be next, and he will complain about wooden bats because they break during play too often.
_Emerald - Saturday, July 10 2004 @ 04:36 PM EDT (#52662) #
What a wonderful at bat by Rios, the one jay hitter Escobar knows nothing about.
_Paul S - Saturday, July 10 2004 @ 04:37 PM EDT (#52663) #
I officially have a man-crush on Alex Rios.
_Nolan - Saturday, July 10 2004 @ 04:41 PM EDT (#52664) #
Interesting comment by the announcers about Cash's hitting: "He really carried the club early in the year [with his bat]"
_Jim - Saturday, July 10 2004 @ 04:43 PM EDT (#52665) #
I used to host a radio talk show back in the day. When Pierre McGuire was the head coach of the Whalers, we had a nice little heated debate about how crappy his team's power play was. What a happy day when they sent him packing.
_Magpie - Saturday, July 10 2004 @ 04:44 PM EDT (#52666) #
Well, sure. Cash carried the offense during the first two weeks. He was the only guy hitting.

Of course, the team went 3-11, which is what you can expect when Kevin Cash is carrying your offense.
_Magpie - Saturday, July 10 2004 @ 04:48 PM EDT (#52667) #
Tim Salmon is now 0-40 against LHP this year. Tim Salmon? Against lefties?

The end is nigh.
_Emerald - Saturday, July 10 2004 @ 04:54 PM EDT (#52668) #
An injury prone right handed power hitter who can't hit left-handers or play a defensive position anymore?

No wonder they wanted Guerrero so much.
_Ryan Lind - Saturday, July 10 2004 @ 04:56 PM EDT (#52669) #
Pierre Maguire will be next, and he will complain about wooden bats because they break during play too often.

Hahahaha.

I think Gord Miller is doing an okay job though to be honest. He's made a bunch of mistakes, but he seems to at least have done his homework.
_Emerald - Saturday, July 10 2004 @ 04:58 PM EDT (#52670) #
RED ALERT! RED ALERT! Carlos is hitting below .200 with runners in scoring position!
_Emerald - Saturday, July 10 2004 @ 05:09 PM EDT (#52671) #
Ted Lilly is wisely throwing pitches to Vlade that even HE won't swing at. Zoinks.
_mistermike - Saturday, July 10 2004 @ 05:18 PM EDT (#52672) #
When will they fit in Bob McKenzie's baseball "Insider" feature?
Mike D - Saturday, July 10 2004 @ 05:24 PM EDT (#52673) #
When will they fit in Bob McKenzie's baseball "Insider" feature?

"It should be no surprise that sources close to Theo Epstein say that the Red Sox will be looking to add more grit -- and toughness -- before the trade deadline. As we all know, the playoffs are like an entirely different season."
_Ryan Lind - Saturday, July 10 2004 @ 05:29 PM EDT (#52674) #
Awww crap.

That's what kinda sucks about baseball. You can have a perfect game through four, but a couple consecutive hits and your start is ruined.
_Mike in CT - Saturday, July 10 2004 @ 05:30 PM EDT (#52675) #
Damn it, Lilly!! 4-1, Angels. It would suck to lose to Escobar!
_Ben NS - Saturday, July 10 2004 @ 05:32 PM EDT (#52676) #
Yes, but the difficulty in actually pitching a perfect game is what makes it such a grand accomplishment.
_Dr. Zarco - Saturday, July 10 2004 @ 05:33 PM EDT (#52677) #
Well that's what happens when you let the 7-8-9 guys load the bases for the top of the order. Although letting two guys who'd prefer to bunt or slap an infield basehit knock in all 4 runs hurts too.
_Dr. Zarco - Saturday, July 10 2004 @ 05:42 PM EDT (#52678) #
Reed does it again-gotta love him. Escobar's wild pitch sure helped, but another RBI for the team leader (hard to believe).
_Paul S - Saturday, July 10 2004 @ 06:09 PM EDT (#52679) #
I called that when it landed. Figgins hit a triple to the exact same spot on Victoria Day. Kid can burn.

Also, Donnelly scares me. At least the Jays weren't the only team to let him get away, so they're not alone in feeling stupid.
_Ryan Lind - Saturday, July 10 2004 @ 06:13 PM EDT (#52680) #
Great.

Ligtenberg comes in with runners on.

I have Lilly on my fantasy team, and I'm scared.
_Emerald - Saturday, July 10 2004 @ 06:15 PM EDT (#52681) #
Kerry 'They're not my runners so I'll let them score' Ligtenberg.

Hopefully he'll have a better year next year (Assuming he's still here)
_Dr. Zarco - Saturday, July 10 2004 @ 06:17 PM EDT (#52682) #
Reed does it again-gotta love him. Escobar's wild pitch sure helped, but another RBI for the team leader (hard to believe).
_Dr. Zarco - Saturday, July 10 2004 @ 06:18 PM EDT (#52683) #
The double post is rather annoying. As expected from most, KLigt lets all the inherited runners score. I feel your pain Ryan, I've got him on my squad too (I've got Escobar too though, so it appears at least I'll get a win).
_Ryan Lind - Saturday, July 10 2004 @ 06:20 PM EDT (#52684) #
Kerry "don't charge them to me!" Ligtenberg strikes again. He has got to have the most misleading ERA in the entire league.
_Magpie - Saturday, July 10 2004 @ 06:20 PM EDT (#52685) #
With today's piece of work, Ligtenberg has now stranded exactly three inherited runners.

All season.

12 out of 15 inherited runners have scored.

Worse than Adams (14 of 26 have scored.)
_S.K. in N.J. - Saturday, July 10 2004 @ 06:21 PM EDT (#52686) #
I know what you guys are thinking, but don't worry. Kerry Ligtenberg IS signed for next year. At $2.5 million to boot. What a bargain.

If I'm JP, I try and package Ligtenberg with Catalanotto. Take a worse return if you have to, but getting rid of a guaranteed $2.5 mil next year will be worth it.
_Dr. Zarco - Saturday, July 10 2004 @ 06:23 PM EDT (#52687) #
Kerry's ERA deserved that granny.
_Andrew K - Saturday, July 10 2004 @ 06:23 PM EDT (#52688) #
The arson squad strikes again!
_Ryan Lind - Saturday, July 10 2004 @ 06:26 PM EDT (#52689) #
Okay, maybe his ERA isn't misleading anymore.

Sigh.

I love how everyone was excited before this year because we brought in a bunch of veterans who "knew how to pitch in pressure situations" and all that junk. Just goes to show how that gets overrated at times.

I'm hoping that JP is able to trade this guy and his 2.5M salary by the deadline. I couldn't care less what we get in return.
_JohnnyS99 - Saturday, July 10 2004 @ 06:28 PM EDT (#52690) #
Well, dont we have Kerry for another year or two after this, ohh joy, and Spier too, with both their salaries WHY DIDNT THEY GET BENITEZ! This is really frustrating.
_Emerald - Saturday, July 10 2004 @ 06:30 PM EDT (#52691) #
I'm curious of the team's ERA without Adams' and Ligtenberg's consistent follys. These two have gotten so bad I almost want Jeff Tam back. Shudder.
_Paul S - Saturday, July 10 2004 @ 06:30 PM EDT (#52692) #
Kerosene Ligtamatch.
_Paul S - Saturday, July 10 2004 @ 06:33 PM EDT (#52693) #
Actually, Kerrysene would work better.
_Emerald - Saturday, July 10 2004 @ 06:33 PM EDT (#52694) #
Well the way Ligtenberg has been this year it's hard to imangine him being much worse next year if he's still here.

Maybe that's a nieve asessment.
_Ryan Lind - Saturday, July 10 2004 @ 06:34 PM EDT (#52695) #
Kerosene Ligtamatch.

Hahahaha. Brilliant.
_Ryan Lind - Saturday, July 10 2004 @ 06:40 PM EDT (#52696) #
Actually, the bullpen's ERA even without Adams, Ligtenberg, and Speier is still 4.86. There's still Nakamura, Kershner, De los Santos, Lopez...
_Tommy - Saturday, July 10 2004 @ 06:40 PM EDT (#52697) #
BENITEZ???

To quote Spaceman Bill Lee: "That guy makes coffee nervous." No one could have thought he'd be pitching so well this year, and he likely won't keep it up. On the flip side, I wouldn't have predicted Lightenberg to put up a line like this in a close game:

IP---H---ER---BB---K---InR-Sc
0.0--4---5-----1---0-----2-2

I think it's just a fluke that the each member of the arson squad has had his worst year ever. There's nowhere to go but up!
_Emerald - Saturday, July 10 2004 @ 06:42 PM EDT (#52698) #
Ouch, that's right. The forgotten members of the arson squad.
_Paul S - Saturday, July 10 2004 @ 06:43 PM EDT (#52699) #
I think the only bad thing is that they overpaid for Kerry. They can't possibly be this bad next year. They might even be worth the money!
_Emerald - Saturday, July 10 2004 @ 06:47 PM EDT (#52700) #
In all the anger against Ligtenberg we forgot one thing; How did BENGIE MOLINA hit a grand slam?
_Ryan Lind - Saturday, July 10 2004 @ 06:48 PM EDT (#52701) #
You're right. I didn't even realize that Ligtenberg had performed so well before this year.

Just look at the numbers:

Ligtenberg

Before this year, his worst ERA+ was 129 which he did in 2000. What on earth happened?

Adams' stats are pretty much normal if you ignore last year. Blahhh.
_6-4-3 - Saturday, July 10 2004 @ 06:51 PM EDT (#52702) #
Could it be? Are all my dreams coming true? Is The Hentgen warming up to come into the game in the 9th?

Sure, they're down my a touchdown, but it's a start!
_Emerald - Saturday, July 10 2004 @ 06:53 PM EDT (#52703) #
Cue the incredible comeback!
_Ryan Lind - Saturday, July 10 2004 @ 06:55 PM EDT (#52704) #
In all the anger against Ligtenberg we forgot one thing; How did BENGIE MOLINA hit a grand slam?

Yeah, amazingly, that was the first HR that Ligtenberg has served up this year.
_Magpie - Saturday, July 10 2004 @ 06:56 PM EDT (#52705) #
Pat Hentgen, mop-up man, getting ready for the 9th
_David Armitage - Saturday, July 10 2004 @ 06:57 PM EDT (#52706) #
Hey, Molina's on my fantasy team! Hopefully his shot turns my horrible week around.
_Emerald - Saturday, July 10 2004 @ 07:00 PM EDT (#52707) #
I think it would be nice if Hentgen got one more start this season, just as a way of saying 'Thanks' for the Cy Young and WS win and all.

I wonder if he's throwing harder?
_Rob - Saturday, July 10 2004 @ 08:21 PM EDT (#52708) #
RE: Da Box on the radio.

Wilner said something about the book signing with a "great bunch of fans who run a Web site - battersbox.ca" and said they would be in the 500 level today cheering like nuts (my words, not his).

And it sure was nice to hear Tom Cheek back on the radio.
_Fawaz K - Saturday, July 10 2004 @ 09:33 PM EDT (#52709) #
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1837718
Griffey. Again. COMN
_Niles - Saturday, July 10 2004 @ 10:16 PM EDT (#52710) #
If J.D. Drew doesn't replace Griffey then there is something wrong.
_Niles - Saturday, July 10 2004 @ 10:17 PM EDT (#52711) #
In the All-Star game I mean.
_Niles - Saturday, July 10 2004 @ 10:23 PM EDT (#52712) #
What the hell is Torre doing picking five Cleveland Indians to play on the All-Star team? Jake Westerbrook? Is he just picking guys who have played for him in the past? It would make sense that you would replace Schilling with Pedro. What's going on here?
_Fawaz K - Saturday, July 10 2004 @ 10:27 PM EDT (#52713) #
Pedro wanted no part of the All-Star game.
_Ryan Lind - Saturday, July 10 2004 @ 10:29 PM EDT (#52714) #
Pedro was offered but rejected because he made other plans.

I still would have preferred Santana over Westbrook though.
_Niles - Saturday, July 10 2004 @ 11:10 PM EDT (#52715) #
I still would have preferred Santana over Westbrook though.

Sure, there shouldn't be five Indians there, they're a sub-.500 team in one of the weakest divisions in baseball. Take Guerdado, Takatsu, Freddy Garcia, Mark Burhel, Keith Foulke, what about Halladay? Halladay's pitched better than Loaiza this year and he's the reigning Cy Young winner. The Jays aren't a worse team than the Indians. Crap-ass picks from Torre, I guess they have pictures of him embroyled in a gay orgie or something.
_Niles - Saturday, July 10 2004 @ 11:24 PM EDT (#52716) #
Keith Foulke:

45 IP, 1.40 ERA, .188 BAA, 13 SV, 7.6 K/9, 0.80 WHIP.

Those are really good numbers, why is Torre picking Westerbrook, another Indian, over Foulke? Foulke has been better and Boston as a team deserves to have three representatives there.
_Chris B. - Sunday, July 11 2004 @ 03:58 AM EDT (#52717) #
Santana is pitching today. That is why he was overlooked.
_#2JBrumfield - Sunday, July 11 2004 @ 08:33 AM EDT (#52718) #
Ligtenberg's performance yesterday must be up there with the worst bullpen outing ever in Jays history. Allows 2 inherited runners to score and gives up a grand slam while not recording an out. That was Tam-like in nature. It also reminds me of Doug Creek's outing last April when he gave up 2 solo jacks and plunked a man to the only 3 batters he faced to help the Twins rally past the Jays.

I think the turning points in this game were Delgado and Hinske failing to cash in runners at 1st and 3rd early in the ballgame and Lilly walking noted slugger Shane Halter to load up the bases in the 5th. When you're walking .210 hitters, that's never a good sign.
_James W - Sunday, July 11 2004 @ 12:07 PM EDT (#52719) #
Westbrook got chosen because he was second in line in the "player voting" behind Pedro (and behind every pitcher chosen already).

And Mr. Wilner has mentioned the loud group of fans calling themselves the Cheer Club a few times on air now. Congrats fellas.
Game 87: Chasing Escobar | 78 comments | Create New Account
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