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He didn't care about the loot
Jan had told him many times it was you to me who taught
In Jersey anything's legal as long as you don't get caught

In baseball anything can happen. Often it's what you expect.

  1. There were a few positive things from yesterday's 10-3 loss to the Yankees. Three innings of scoreless pitching by Justin Speier, 3 hits each from Cat and Reed, and Rios nailing Matsui at home. The rest of the game wasn't so positive, as shown by Spencer Fordin's "Hentgen humbled by Yanks", Mark Feinsand's "Yanks enjoy first look at Jays", Mike Rutsey's "Another Pat-astrophe", Ben Walker's "Jays get beat up in New York", and Allan Ryan's "Yankees manhandle Blue Jays".

  2. Fordin Notes (by the real article) on David Bush's almost no-hitter, the almost non-reaction to Delgado's stance on the war, and Cat's first game in the starting lineup in a month.

  3. Unlike last night, this afternoon's game should be a dandy. It's a 1:05PM EST start! The 7-7 Ted Lilly takes the mound for the Jays against the 2-0 Orlando Hernandez. After reading Fordin's game preview I feel optimistic about our chances.

  4. The Jays are losing money, but they're losing less money than in previous years according to Steve Erwin's "Jays value in decline". The first paragraph brings good news for suffering Jays fans:

      [The Jays] could raise their player payroll next season with or without Carlos Delgado on the roster, the team's president says.

    Many of us were expecting a $48 million payroll for next year. An extra $3 or $4 million could go a long way in shoring up the bullpen or adding another good bat to the club.

  5. It's no longer the Star which is making a tempest in a B-cup (or however that saying goes). Today's Sun has Ben Walker's "Delgado taking a stand" on Delgado's refusal to stand for the playing of God Bless America during the 7th inning stretch.

  6. When a Richard Griffin article starts out with the title "Jays' GM betrays Carlos", you can pretty much guess how the rest of the article is going to go. To save you time, here's how the article ends:

      The problem is that Ricciardi has never embraced the true meaning of his most talented and popular player the way the fans have. The way he handled the current Delgado situation could not have been more inept, clumsy, badly managed or poorly intentioned.

      Godfrey, the good cop to Ricciardi's bad, has since called Sloane to try to clarify the sequence of events with regard to Delgado. J.P. has not spoken to Sloane about a contract or the waiving of any clause since the spring. You might think he would have learned from his thoughtless handling of the Kelvim Escobar negotiations a year ago. He didn't and likely won't from the Delgado fiasco, either.


    I thought it was pretty class of J.P. not to mention Griffin and Elliott by name last night when discussing his relationship with the media.

  7. An issue that has just come up: The Globe and Mail now requires you to register to visit their site. I quite dislike having to register when similar stories can be found in the Star and Sun. Does registering and logging in each morning bother you enough to stop going, or should I keep linking to their articles?


Odds and Ends:

  1. Our own Gerry McDonald did colour commentary for the last three innings of the New Hampshire Fisher Cats game. Way too go, Gerry!

  2. In case you missed it, J.P. announced last night on the Fan 590 that they Jays have signed first round draft pick David Purcey.

  3. I love listening to Wilner's Wednesdays with JP. It's hard to find two intelligent guys who know their baseball on the same show. Because of that the Fan 590 should really consider Thursdays with Kent Williams.

  4. A picture some of you have been clamoring to see:

    hazelwebkeith (35k image)


That's all I've got. What's in your hand?

Jays Roundup - He Was Taking the Whole Thing Personal | 112 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
_Morty - Thursday, July 22 2004 @ 08:40 AM EDT (#49792) #
Perhaps Hentgen could be replaced in the rotation by Tweeter and the Monkey Man. Pat is a Headstone compared to those Traveling Wilburys.
_alsiem - Thursday, July 22 2004 @ 08:42 AM EDT (#49793) #
Hazel Mae looks hungry. Has she eaten Keith already and that's his lone shoe and the soda he was enjoying behind her, or was that the first victim and Keith's next?

The song mentions Jersey so I'll guess Bruce Springsteen. Not sure of the actual song but perhaps Atlantic City?
Leigh - Thursday, July 22 2004 @ 08:44 AM EDT (#49794) #
It's the Wilburys, Morty. In the Headstones' version, the line is:

"In Kingston everything is legal as long as you don't get caught"
_Moffatt - Thursday, July 22 2004 @ 08:46 AM EDT (#49795) #
Leigh is 100% correct. That being said, I'm impressed that Morty referenced both versions, which are lyrically quite different from each other.
Thomas - Thursday, July 22 2004 @ 08:49 AM EDT (#49796) #
Yes, it will stop me from reading them online in all likelihood; I'm quite lazy.

This Delgado situation turning into one of the biggest non-issues of the year. While I'm sure some in the Toronto media would love for a big controversy to break out so they could have "something interesting" to say about the Jays, most people don't seem that bothered over what Carlos is doing. Whether you agree or disagree, he is doing his protest quietly and the great majority people had never noticed until it was talked about last weeks.

Some media are expressing their support for his position, others aren't and some are saying regardless of my beliefs, he should be allowed to express his opinion. It's a minor issue, but Delgado isn't getting booed out of New York, he's not facing a barrage of criticism and this looks like this will go away quickly.
_Mick - Thursday, July 22 2004 @ 08:49 AM EDT (#49797) #
Dang! A song lyric from a CD I actually have for once ...

Anyway, first on the G&M ... if it's a one-time deal and the login will be saved by a cookie in my cache, then it's not an issue. If I have to log in every day, then, well, I'll personally just never click that link.

And a prediction:
If Lilly leaves tonight's game, win or lose, with a line anything like this: 7.2 5 2 2 1 6
... then he will not be leaving New York with the Jays.
_Paul D - Thursday, July 22 2004 @ 08:53 AM EDT (#49798) #
Registration for the Globe and Mail is pretty random.
I just went there this morning and didn't have to register.

I remember being asked to register about 3 weeks ago.

I didn't, went back later, and things were fine.

I would like to see you continue to link their articles, and any articles that aren't by the Sun or the Star. However, if it's too much of a pain forget it.
_Four Seamer - Thursday, July 22 2004 @ 08:54 AM EDT (#49799) #
The problem is that Ricciardi has never embraced the true meaning of his most talented and popular player the way the fans have.

What is Griffin getting at here? I thought Carlos was a slugging first baseman with a burdensome contract. I didn't realize that he was a quasi-spiritual figure, who has revealed himself to his loyal legions of fans, but not the apostate general manager who refuses to renounce his heretical ways.

If Griffin wants to say that the fans appreciate Carlos more than JP, that's fine (although I suspect if there were a few more fans paying for seats, JP and Ted Rogers might appreciate him a little more, and if the fans had to fit Delgado's contract into their own budgets, they might embrace his "true meaning" a little less fervently). Leave the mystical mumbo-jumbo out of it.
_Jim - Thursday, July 22 2004 @ 08:56 AM EDT (#49800) #
I was suprised when I caught up yesterday that some people anticipated a reaction to Delgado. Noone here knows, and noone here cares. Yankee fans are so self-absorbed they even seem to have stopped paying attention to the Red Sox.
_Daryn - Thursday, July 22 2004 @ 08:59 AM EDT (#49801) #
I love listening to Wilner's Wednesdays with JP. It's hard to find two intelligent guys who know their baseball on the same show.

I agree... the problem I have is the callers... I tend to turn the volume down during the calls and then try to turn back up for the answers.... fortunately Wilner asks an intelligent "follow up" in most cases.... that is the best part of the broadcast many nights...

Well done Mike... any thoughts of having a website set up to collect the listeners questions and then reading the best ones live??... Sorry but throughout the day on the FAN, there are already too many callers calling to ask the same tired old questions or just trying to look smart themselves... I listen to music from 9 till 5 and just catch Prime Time with Bob once the callers are gone...

I'm surprised that no one has ask J.P. if Vince is coming back.

P.S. I am aching for Pat... if we had ANYONE that could start even if he sucked, (Dave Berg would be fine) then I'd be looking for a classy way to let Pat off the hook... right now he's taking it on the chin for the team... Classy guy....
_Mosely - Thursday, July 22 2004 @ 09:04 AM EDT (#49802) #
While you guys were at home watching the Jays game, I was at the Lynx-Bats game giving it to Felipe Lopez from the third row. You'll be happy to know that he's still stinking it up in AAA. .276/8/42 - I guess that's not so bad.

I sat behind one of the best hecklers ever. The guy was all over Felipe, and Felipe was giving his share back. One of the things Felipe said was "I'm getting paid 2 million per year" which shut the heckler up for about a second. I got to thinking afterwards - there's no way he's making 2 million per is there?
_Moffatt - Thursday, July 22 2004 @ 09:05 AM EDT (#49803) #
I agree... the problem I have is the callers

Me too. If they'd just took nothing but e-mailed questions, I'd be a happy camper.

I wish people who would call in would write down their questions while they're waiting on hold. There's way too many rambling 38 sentence questions being asked and it hurts the flow of the show. It's still worth listening to, as I really enjoy JP's candour and Mike's follow-up questions.
Pistol - Thursday, July 22 2004 @ 09:13 AM EDT (#49804) #
Does anyone know what the Jays get in revenue sharing?
_Marc - Thursday, July 22 2004 @ 09:14 AM EDT (#49805) #
I'd like to know what the Jays plan to do the next time Halladay's spot in the rotation comes up... You just can't send Hentgen out again! And there isn't a long man in the pen you could convert unless they look at Chulk, who started in the minors. I guess you could start File and pray that he goes three innings (although he was always a one-inning guy/closer in the minors) and then tax the bullpen but that just creates more problems.

Marc
_Paul D - Thursday, July 22 2004 @ 09:17 AM EDT (#49806) #
Ever notice how half the callers seem like they're from the Bronx or out of breath?

Mike from Montreal was all over Tosca last night, and there was a nother guy, Mark I think, that huffed and puffed hiw way through the question.
_Marc - Thursday, July 22 2004 @ 09:21 AM EDT (#49807) #
http://redsox.bostonherald.com/redSox/view.bg?articleid=36673
COMN - The Boston Herald is reporting that the Red Sox and Jays have had "substantial" talks the Jays about Terry Adams. Oh please, oh please, take him! We'll take a bag of baseballs in return!
_Moffatt - Thursday, July 22 2004 @ 09:29 AM EDT (#49808) #
I'd like to know what the Jays plan to do the next time Halladay's spot in the rotation comes up...

Somebody (I can't remember who, sorry) mentioned Sean Douglass last night. As a spot starter, that'd make a lot of sense.
_Ryan Day - Thursday, July 22 2004 @ 09:29 AM EDT (#49809) #
My God. That article is brutal even for Griffin. Would it be possible to write a more venomous character assassination piece? And since when is Griffin a fan of Delgado? I thought he was an overpaid, one-dimensional, non-hustling obstacle to contention.
_The Original Ry - Thursday, July 22 2004 @ 09:39 AM EDT (#49810) #
And since when is Griffin a fan of Delgado? I thought he was an overpaid, one-dimensional, non-hustling obstacle to contention.

My thoughts exactly. There was a time when Griffin would rip Delgado for everything, from not showing leadership to world hunger. Many here will probably remember this quote from Delgado from 2001 when he was asked about the media:

"I've got enough self-confidence and enough self-esteem that I'm not going to let some drunk that doesn't know the game ruin my career."

I wonder who he might have been referring to...
_Four Seamer - Thursday, July 22 2004 @ 09:46 AM EDT (#49811) #
Usually, Griffin waits until a former Jay returns with his new team to simultaneously write that player an encomium and savage Ricciardi (see, Stewart, Shannon and Escobar, Kelvim), regardless of what he used to say about those same players. I guess Griffin is just getting a headstart this time around.

I like his old style better, frankly. I'm looking forward to when the Yankees come to town next week and we get to read all about how JP betrayed Paul Quantrill and Tanyon Sturtze.
_Paul D - Thursday, July 22 2004 @ 09:46 AM EDT (#49812) #
I don't know, I think Griffin used to be a fan of Delgado.

After all, it was his idea to make Delgado the team captain.
_R Billie - Thursday, July 22 2004 @ 09:47 AM EDT (#49813) #
What would the Jays get from Boston? I young reliever or starter I'm guessing.
_Mike in CT - Thursday, July 22 2004 @ 09:49 AM EDT (#49814) #
Griffin is just a major league @ss. It's one thing to be a controversial writer and shake things up, but this guy is a moron who has absolutely no clue what he's talking about. He makes himself look more and more stupid each day. How could the Star even employ him? It says a lot about their paper.
_R Billie - Thursday, July 22 2004 @ 09:53 AM EDT (#49815) #
Griffin two years ago was constantly bagging on Delgado, complaining about his defence, about his big contract, about how he wasn't a leader. This even after Ricciardi took over. Two years later with the probable end of the line inevitably approaching for reasons which are really no-one's fault, Griffin is finding ways to twist the story and flip-flop in his stance on Delgado.

He also continues to complain about the Escobar negotiation despite the fact that Escobar has since said he holds a grudge more against the previous administration for not giving him a long term deal when Halladay and Carpenter got theirs. He was mellow earlier in the year when the Jays were turning around their slow start but now that they're in another slide his pen has gotten quite poisonous again.
_Four Seamer - Thursday, July 22 2004 @ 09:55 AM EDT (#49816) #
Griffin is just a major league @ss.

Big time!
_Moffatt - Thursday, July 22 2004 @ 09:58 AM EDT (#49817) #
There's no need to resort to name calling. If Griffin's stuff annoys you, just ignore him. It's a shame that we end up talking about Griffin all the time and ignore really good writers like Spencer Fordin.
_miVulgar - Thursday, July 22 2004 @ 09:59 AM EDT (#49818) #
The problem is that Ricciardi has never embraced the true meaning of his most talented and popular player the way the fans have.

This reminds me of Griffin's assertion that Jackie Robinson wouldn't have interested the Jays because of their stringent "criteria". You gotta hate those Hall of Famers with lifetime .409 OBPs!

Ricciardi probably appreciates the "true meaning" of what somebody like Delgado brings to a team than the vast majority of fans, not vice versa.

Brutal.
Mike Green - Thursday, July 22 2004 @ 10:00 AM EDT (#49819) #
Yes, Sean Douglass would make sense as a spot starter. His overall numbers are OK, and he's been coming on. He pitched a great game for Syracuse last night.

Yesterday was prospect call-up today. First, David Wright. Then, Grady Sizemore, who got into last night's game for the Indians as a late inning replacement for Coco Crisp in a blowout.Here is the boxscore. Will either of these guys be the Miguel Cabrera of 2004?

Underneath all of the venom, Richard Griffin has a kernel of a point. It would probably be better if issues concerning waiver of a no-trade clause could be kept private between player and management. However, it is difficult for a GM to do so. Player salaries and contract terms are public knowledge, and trading of players at the deadline is so much a part of baseball routine, that the disclosure of an unwillingness to waive a no-trade clause except on terms becomes clear to fans, whether it is publicly declared by the GM or not. I don't know whether public declarations or the inevitable incessant speculation or rumour is worse for the player.

As a fan, I'd love to see Carlos Delgado back, even though I realize that this is unlikely.
Lucas - Thursday, July 22 2004 @ 10:00 AM EDT (#49820) #
The problem is that Ricciardi has never embraced the true meaning of his most talented and popular player the way the fans have.

Ricciardi also has never embraced the true meaning of Christmas, and yesterday he kicked a puppy.

Anyway, since Toronto (or any other team) would never offer Delgado arbitration, this may be a situation in which Toronto would have a better chance of signing him next season if he were traded now rather than retained.
_Ryan01 - Thursday, July 22 2004 @ 10:04 AM EDT (#49821) #
I like the idea of Douglass too Moffatt. He's actually pitched quite well over the last two months. After his complete game 4-hitter last night he's right on schedule to pitch next time Halladay's spot in the rotation comes up.
_Magpie - Thursday, July 22 2004 @ 10:05 AM EDT (#49822) #
Oh, Griffin's just being a griffin...

Though I don't quite understand how Delgado was blindsided. It wasn't news to Carlos that he had refused to waive his no-trade...

The Globe's sports coverage is so skimpy that I often don't even bother with it, but can I just get in some words of praise for Larry Millson who has been the best baseball beat writer in this city for practically forever.
_Four Seamer - Thursday, July 22 2004 @ 10:05 AM EDT (#49823) #
Underneath all of the venom, Richard Griffin has a kernel of a point. It would probably be better if issues concerning waiver of a no-trade clause could be kept private between player and management. However, it is difficult for a GM to do so. Player salaries and contract terms are public knowledge, and trading of players at the deadline is so much a part of baseball routine, that the disclosure of an unwillingness to waive a no-trade clause except on terms becomes clear to fans, whether it is publicly declared by the GM or not.

Not only that, but the media is interested in the story, and is forever asking JP about it. Ordinarily, the media is appreciative of a player or executive who answers questions honestly, and doesn't hide behind 'no comment' or misdirection. If members of the media think this should have been all kept in-house and criticize Ricciardi for speaking publicly about the issue, they never should have asked the questions in the first place. It certainly wasn't as if Ricciardi called an impromptu press conference to announce he was going to ask Delgado to waive the no-trade clause.
_Four Seamer - Thursday, July 22 2004 @ 10:07 AM EDT (#49824) #
There's no need to resort to name calling. If Griffin's stuff annoys you, just ignore him.

Sorry Moffatt - I was just riffing on the George Bush/Dick Cheney exchange over Adam Clymer from 2000. Whatever else you think of those two, that was a great bit of comedy.
_Andrew S - Thursday, July 22 2004 @ 10:10 AM EDT (#49825) #
Negotiating with Boston, I'd ask for a bag off balls and a sandwich for Adams, but I'd take an empty sack and a hardroll with catsup inside.
_Graeme - Thursday, July 22 2004 @ 10:11 AM EDT (#49826) #
Is that a martin amis allusion? (keith talent) If it is, it's worthy of my first post.
_Paul D - Thursday, July 22 2004 @ 10:19 AM EDT (#49827) #
I don't think Adams is that bad, and I think he could be useful in the future. He had a bad start but has pitched reasonably well since then, so I wouldn't be in a hurry to get rid of him. Sure, trade him if you can get something decent back, but don't just trade him for the sake of trading him.
_MatO - Thursday, July 22 2004 @ 10:24 AM EDT (#49828) #
It's easy to get riled at Griffin. He reminds me of a friend of mine who would just say the most anti-feminist type things to women, not because he believed them but because he just liked to see them get all riled up. However, the really interesting article in the Star today is right beside Griffin's on page 2. The Jays might raise payroll? (didn't Baker or Griffin say they would cut payroll?) Even a $52M payroll would be huge. $55M? Ooooo the possiblities! Maybe, instead of the urge to email the Star to complain, we should be emailing Rogers to urge them to invest a bit more at this critical juncture. In the long run I don't think they'd regret it.
Craig B - Thursday, July 22 2004 @ 10:24 AM EDT (#49829) #
By the way, the new They Might Be Giants is just terrific. I bought it with To The Five Boroughs and I haven't even got to the Beasties yet.
_Marc - Thursday, July 22 2004 @ 10:25 AM EDT (#49830) #
What would the Jays get from Boston? I young reliever or starter I'm guessing.

Brandon Puffer or John Stephens? Not much. Just be happy if they take him and his bloated salary. I wouldn't mind seeing Stephens (an Australian). He doesn't throw hard at all, but he has had come nice minor league numbers.

Spot start - I guess the only question is how do you clear space on the 40 man roster for Douglass?
_mathesond - Thursday, July 22 2004 @ 10:25 AM EDT (#49831) #
http://www.mathesond.mindsay.com
Seems to me that by announcing Delgado wouldn't waive his no-trade, Ricciardi also revealed that the best player in franchise history wantetd to stay in Toronto, a fact that would be noted by other players, including a) his teammates, and b) potential free agents. It might be lost on some columnists, however
Mike Green - Thursday, July 22 2004 @ 10:27 AM EDT (#49832) #
Near deadline time, and with pictures of Sabean on the cellphone abounding, "They Might Be Giants" would be a suitable caption for pictures of his acquisition targets.

Good band, that one. I'll have a listen.
_IainS - Thursday, July 22 2004 @ 10:36 AM EDT (#49833) #
Yes, Delgado refusing to waive the no trade clause may be an indication that he would like to remain in Toronto, mind you just how much is he willing to concede to stay. The other possibility is he really doesn't want to pack and move his apartment twice in one year.
Named For Hank - Thursday, July 22 2004 @ 10:38 AM EDT (#49834) #
Ricciardi also has never embraced the true meaning of Christmas, and yesterday he kicked a puppy.

Have you seen Tin Cup? The moment where Don Johnson's character's true nature is revealed in about four seconds is, in my opinion, one of the funniest setup-payoff gags in the history of the movies. The rest of the film is pretty good, but that one scene (and all the buildup to it) is just plain wonderful.

but can I just get in some words of praise for Larry Millson who has been the best baseball beat writer in this city for practically forever.

I like his stuff a lot. Seconded. And Fordin doesn't get enough love around here either, probably because we all read him every day and every day he's good. Here's the secret, Spencer: write a really horrible article every once and a while so that we have a chance to expound on how you've returned to your regularly excellent form after a bad outing.
_Mick - Thursday, July 22 2004 @ 10:40 AM EDT (#49835) #
How could the Star even employ him?

Everybody, all together now ... because he sells papers. AND because he tracks readers to the online version.

Moffatt is precisely on point:
It's a shame that we end up talking about Griffin all the time and ignore really good writers like Spencer Fordin.

That said, I enjoy reading Griffin. And so, apparently, does everyone else. It draws a reaction. Reading something that gets your blood boiling, that raises the "I'm right" righteous indignation ... it's the same reason many U.S. liberals are faithful (if palpably horrified) listeners of Rush Limbaugh and watchers of Bill O'Reilly.

If Richard Griffin did not exist, the Toronto media market would have to invent him.
_Ryan01 - Thursday, July 22 2004 @ 10:41 AM EDT (#49836) #
I guess the only question is how do you clear space on the 40 man roster for Douglass?

The 40 man is easy, you just transfer one of Estalella, Miller or De Los Santos to the 60 day DL. They've all been out for 45+ days already and I'm sure one of them will be out another 10-15 days at least anyways. The tough decision I think would be the 25 man roster. Do they stick with a 6 man pen and option File down or do they release/trade someone.
_Nigel - Thursday, July 22 2004 @ 10:44 AM EDT (#49837) #
I'm not sure that getting rid of Adams for the sake of getting rid of him acomplishes a lot. He's not signed for next year. The money saved for this year isn't much and the idea that that money would go into next years budget is usually not true. The only reason to move him would be to have a look at Frederick (Lopez and Peterson are struggling and I'm not sure anyone wants a reprise of the Nakamura show). There's some merit to that but without a 5th starter I think the pen should have someone else added to it anyway (without subtracting Adams). If you get something of value for Adams - fine make the trade - but otherwise just dumping him doesn't make a ton of sense.
_Nigel - Thursday, July 22 2004 @ 10:49 AM EDT (#49838) #
Making room on the 25 man roster is pretty simple - Hentgen's the man to go. I know that's painful but the reality is there's no reason to keep him around. If he's not eating innings right now as the 5th starter (and he shouldn't be) then he has to go, he's just taking up space. If he doesn't go then you have to look at the roster problem that the Jays have had for a while now - 3 back-up middle infielders. In a perfect world you would never have all of Gomez, Woodward, O-Dog, Berg and Menechino on the 25-man roster.
Dave Till - Thursday, July 22 2004 @ 10:52 AM EDT (#49839) #
I just saw the article stating that the Jays might raise payroll. That's the best news I've heard this year (that doesn't include the name "Rios" in it). Thanks, MatO, for pointing this out. Imagine what the Jays could do with Delgado's $19 million plus maybe a few million more! They could sign Delgado again, or an equivalent, plus another bat plus a pitcher. Yummy!

I won't comment on Griffin. He does his thing, the Jays do theirs, and we at the Box do ours. That's not likely to change.

Just took a look at Delgado's July stats: in 52 at-bats, he has 2 walks, 16 strikeouts, and only seven hits, three of which are home runs. What's happening here? Four possibilities:

1) He's suddenly done a Jeff Cirillo (or a Dale Murphy) and lost the ability to hit. Unlikely; I don't know of any hitter who has ever declined that quickly.

2) He's still hurt, and being Carlos, feels he has to try to earn his money by playing through it.

3) He needs to make a mechanical adjustment, and hasn't quite done it yet. I suppose we should all try to remember that playing major league baseball well is extremely difficult to do, especially since you can only do it well at someone else's expense.

4) My favourite explanation is that he's trying to hit a five-run home run every time up. He's trying to take the world on his shoulders and failing, since no one can do this.

I have no idea what goes on inside the Jays' clubhouse, or how Carlos feels, but at this point I'd advise him to relax and chill out. Maybe even sign him for next year right now - for less money, of course, but for a fair salary (in my pipe-dream universe, let's say $8 or $9 million). I'd extend his no-trade clause too. Furthermore, I, as his GM, would demand that he do something silly at least once a week. I'd put him in charge of surprising people with unexpected cream pies, or something. He's been asked to carry more than his share of the load for so long; it's time to let him have some fun playing this game.
Named For Hank - Thursday, July 22 2004 @ 10:56 AM EDT (#49840) #
Furthermore, I, as his GM, would demand that he do something silly at least once a week. I'd put him in charge of surprising people with unexpected cream pies, or something. He's been asked to carry more than his share of the load for so long; it's time to let him have some fun playing this game.

Hah! I love this idea. Someone call J.P. and tell him that Carlos should be the official Blue Jays Cream Pie Ambassador.
_Marc - Thursday, July 22 2004 @ 10:56 AM EDT (#49841) #
In a perfect world you would never have all of Gomez, Woodward, O-Dog, Berg and Menechino on the 25-man roster.

Whoa, Nigel... How can you lump O-Dog in the same group as Berg and others? Hudson is a Gold Glove calibre sacker. And he isn't bad with the stick either; he's just in a slump! He saves way more runs on the field than he fails to bring in at the plate! I say give O-Dog a multi-year deal for a reasonable amount.
Dave Till - Thursday, July 22 2004 @ 10:59 AM EDT (#49842) #
Two more things, while I'm still standing on my soapbox:

- From what I've seen, J.P. is a big fan of Delgado, and has been for many years. Who wouldn't be?

- A reason to try to re-sign Delgado, if at all possible, is that he wants to play here. There's something to be said for players who actually like Toronto; a lot of players don't. This holds true for Catalanotto too - he was eager to remain a Jay, and presumably still is.
_Ryan01 - Thursday, July 22 2004 @ 11:02 AM EDT (#49843) #
I don't think Nigel's saying release the O-dog, just that 5 middle infielders is probably too many. But it's not like the other 4 guys deserve to be released outright either. The only guy with options is Menechino and I don't see how you send him down right now. Whether it's Hentgen, a middle infielder or a bullpen trade I still think it's a tough decision and not one that I'd want to be the one making right now.
_Magpie - Thursday, July 22 2004 @ 11:03 AM EDT (#49844) #
This is kind of a strange thought, but watching Hentgen's sad and painful struggle these past two months (did the Arizona game happen? was that a mirage?) has given me a whole new appreciation of what Greg Maddux has done, and still continues to do to some extent.

It's possible - just, barely, and probably not - that Hentgen isn't done. But his stuff has changed radically on him, and he hasn't yet been able to figure out how (or even if) he can guys out with what he has left.

There are plenty of pitchers who are very effective in later life with 85 MPH fastballs.

But obviously what Hentgen's doing isn't working. He's become a nibbler. He's trying to make perfect pitches, on the corner, with the first pitch. A philosophy that has never, ever worked. He has to try something else.

All I can suggest are two ancient pieces of pitching philosophy:

"Hitting is timing. Pitching is upsetting timing." (Warren Spahn)

"Get the at-bat over with." (Greg Maddux)
_Marc - Thursday, July 22 2004 @ 11:09 AM EDT (#49845) #
I think we should start a campaign to have Griffin re-assigned out of covering the Jays. I would be more than willing to offer my services to replace him (and give up my cushy job as a reporter and columnist for a small Sun-owned paper) and give the Jays some positive press!
_Nigel - Thursday, July 22 2004 @ 11:10 AM EDT (#49846) #
Ryan01's right, I wasn't suggesting that O-Dog should be released - far from it. I was just pointing out that the Jays have 5 people on the roster for two positions and you could get rid of one of them. Berg would be the obvious candidate but there were a few times this season when you could have said that and Dave's still here so I don't think he's going anywhere.
_Loveshack - Thursday, July 22 2004 @ 11:11 AM EDT (#49847) #
Question: Would it make any sense at all for the Jays to try and move Woodward this off-season? Or would it be better to keep him around as a utility infielder? He has the potential to be alot better but he just seems to have trouble putting it all together. Would there be any interest if they did put him out there? How long is his current contract for, anyone know?
_Wunderbat - Thursday, July 22 2004 @ 11:12 AM EDT (#49848) #
I agree with Dave Till, this team needs to relax and start having some fun this year, and then the wins will come. Turning Carlos into the prank monkey is the perfect way to start this. When they get back home I want to see someone's shoelaces lit on fire. I guess it will have to be Rios or Bush since they will be the only rookies in the dugout. And put some shaving cream in Cash's helmet while you area at it. And maybe a red card in Vernon's locker. Any other suggestions?
_Jacko - Thursday, July 22 2004 @ 11:28 AM EDT (#49849) #

An issue that has just come up: The Globe and Mail now requires you to register to visit their site. I quite dislike having to register when similar stories can be found in the Star and Sun. Does registering and logging in each morning bother you enough to stop going, or should I keep linking to their articles?

Sure keep linking to them.

In true Baseball Primer style, I use Bud Selig's credentials to login to the Globe:

userid: bselig
pwd: bselig

Everyone else is welcome to use those credentials as well.
_MatO - Thursday, July 22 2004 @ 11:31 AM EDT (#49850) #
This Woodward thing is driving me crazy. Gomez is a known quantity. He isn't very good. Now there's a pretty decent chance that Woodward is better than Gomez and a small chance that he's a lot better. Why isn't he playing so we can find out? It's not like we're going for the penant here. Logically, having veteran backups makes a lot of sense, but too often managers or management prefer known mediocrity to unknown potential. While veterans are allowed to work out of their slumps, young players are asked to produce now or risk a benching. The same thing applies to Phelps and maybe to a lesser degree Cash. Let's start having an eye toward next year.
_Jacko - Thursday, July 22 2004 @ 11:39 AM EDT (#49851) #

This Woodward thing is driving me crazy. Gomez is a known quantity. He isn't very good. Now there's a pretty decent chance that Woodward is better than Gomez and a small chance that he's a lot better. Why isn't he playing so we can find out?

I am in violent agreement with you.

Of all the bad teams this year, Seattle has most impressed me with their decisiveness in punting and getting some young players up from the farm. Olerud and Aurilia are gone. Boone will be traded or released in the next 10 days. Leone, Jacobsen, and Jose Lopez will get 2 full months to show what they can do. And the field manager is completely on the same page as management, and is actually playing these guys.

Shortstop and catcher and 1B/DH are the three unsettled areas on the Jays roster. The guys who have a chance to be around in 2005 and beyond should be getting the bulk of the playing time. Not Gomez. Not Berg. Not Zaun. Unless they are being showcased for a trade, there's no reason to be playing them anymore.
_Four Seamer - Thursday, July 22 2004 @ 11:44 AM EDT (#49852) #
Hijack alert:

Since I know there are some Old 97's fans on this website, in case you weren't already aware, they are playing Lee's Palace in Toronto on September 12. Tickets go on sale Saturday morning.

Back to your regularly scheduled programming.
_Ryan01 - Thursday, July 22 2004 @ 11:44 AM EDT (#49853) #
Woodward isn't exactly an unknown here either. He has nearly 1000 major league at bats and his stats this year are nearly identical to his career numbers. He's been given a shot at the everyday job 3 times now and just hasn't gotten the job done. I was quite pleased to see Woodward get those opportunities but I wouldn't hold it against the Jays if they now felt he was more suited to a backup role.
_MatO - Thursday, July 22 2004 @ 12:03 PM EDT (#49854) #
Woodward has had one extended period where he played full-time. Starting from the latter part of 2002 to the first half of 2003 he was more than adequate with the bat but his errors eventually did him in. The rest of his at-bats have come in dribs and drabs. Hell, he lost his job this year because he was hurt. I mean we're comparing him to Gomez here. If there was a real viable alternative I wouldn't be making this argument. He needs to get a string of at-bats in a low pressure situation. Hand him the job. Even JP keeps saying he has a world of talent.
_Loveshack - Thursday, July 22 2004 @ 12:08 PM EDT (#49855) #
Even JP keeps saying he has a world of talent.

Yeah but he always follows that up by saying that Chris has had the opportunity to make the job his, on several occaisions, and hasnt done it.
_coliver - Thursday, July 22 2004 @ 12:15 PM EDT (#49856) #
A few things:

1. Again, the subject of Mike Wilner being outstanding is a great part of today's conversation. So again I will ask: Why doesn't Rogers allow him to do some play-by-play to give Jerry some relief?

2. It is hard to see such a fine career reach this point, but watching Hentgen pitch these days is a very sad experience. I still remember him his first year as a eager puppy, snatching wins and learning from a hurting Dave Stieb. In fact, Hentgen was the one who told Sir David back in 1998 that is stuff was good enough for a comeback. That was a feel-good story.

3. Does Hazel Mae know anything about baseball? And who has a worse swing in the batters box than Cabbie?

Random thought: Pat Borders is going to make an outstanding coach sooner or later, and it may be sooner rather than later! He is the John Sullivan of the 2000s.
_MatO - Thursday, July 22 2004 @ 12:19 PM EDT (#49857) #
I'd just rather give Woodward the opportunity to fail than Gomez the opportunity to blah.
Thomas - Thursday, July 22 2004 @ 12:25 PM EDT (#49858) #
Craig, is it (TMBG) as good as their best work previously? Who is their Edith Head-like allusion of the CD? I expect there'll be several.
_Moffatt - Thursday, July 22 2004 @ 12:29 PM EDT (#49859) #
Sorry Moffatt - I was just riffing on the George Bush/Dick Cheney exchange over Adam Clymer from 2000. Whatever else you think of those two, that was a great bit of comedy.

No worries. The Bush/Cheney/Clymer thing was funny.

Although I don't enjoy Griffin's columns, I hate it when attacks get personal. I get a fair bit of hate mail through my About account, so I can sympathise with Griffin. I just can't understand the mindset of someone who writes in and says "I read a dozen of your articles, and they're all garbage. YOU SUCK!" If I'm so terrible, why did you continue to read, and why did you take time out of your day to send me an e-mail?

Does Hazel Mae know anything about baseball?

Yes. A fair bit, actually.

And who has a worse swing in the batters box than Cabbie?

Bruce Hurst.
_Re-assign Griff - Thursday, July 22 2004 @ 12:31 PM EDT (#49860) #
That's a great idea... what's the best way we can do this? Anyone know who at the Star can make these decisions?

I'm so tired of reading his biased crap (which usually isn't even about baseball), but it's the only paper I subscribe too. I'd be happy to cancel my subscription to make this point, even though I can't really stand any of the other papers.

I think he's an unhappy, insecure man who hides his lack of baseball knowledge with these ridiculously anti-Jays articles.

He's criticized "moneyball" countless times, while never actually stating why it doesn't work or what he would do instead. Constructive criticism is easy to take when it comes with recognition of what has been done right. Griffin only publishes negative unhelpful issues intended only to magnify (usually unfairly and inaccurately) what's going wrong. Recently he's been raving about how the 2004 Jays were playing poorly even before the injuries - as if he's unaware that ALL teams go through slumps (remember the Yankee's start this year?). He ignores the fact that virtually the same Jays batting lineup had a great entire 2003.

Sorry to stray, so how do we "reassign" him?
_Magpie - Thursday, July 22 2004 @ 12:36 PM EDT (#49861) #
Yes, Hazel knows her baseball. (A little love and respect for Hazel, who can argue.)

But the show (J-zone) is not exactly pitched towards members of SABR. Or even the ZLC.
_Re-assign Griff - Thursday, July 22 2004 @ 12:37 PM EDT (#49862) #
And anyone else notice that the Star seems to position the Jays articles depending on whether they're positive or negative? Maybe it's just me, but it seems like when they lose badly, they're covered on page 2-3 (or page 1 of the entire paper for stuff like "the White Jays"), but when they win they're usually on page 4?
_Moffatt - Thursday, July 22 2004 @ 12:38 PM EDT (#49863) #
Also, I think people are a lot more likely to give the benefit of the doubt RE: baseball knowledge to a man than a woman. If a woman, particularly an attractive woman like Hazel Mae, gets hired for a job like that, most people will automatically assume she was hired solely on her looks and that she has no other qualifications.
_coliver - Thursday, July 22 2004 @ 12:43 PM EDT (#49864) #
Thanks, Moffatt, I was not being sarcastic about Hazel, just that I only have seen the show a few times and wasn't sure if she knew her stuff or just being a "talking head".
_Moffatt - Thursday, July 22 2004 @ 12:44 PM EDT (#49865) #
No worries.. I didn't think you were implying anything. :)
_MatO - Thursday, July 22 2004 @ 12:46 PM EDT (#49866) #
Sports fans can't be fooled. Hazel does know her stuff. However, Martine Gaillard on the Score I don't think REALLY knows her stuff.
_Jacko - Thursday, July 22 2004 @ 12:49 PM EDT (#49867) #

Sorry to stray, so how do we "reassign" him?

Griffin (and his keepers) are far more concerned with selling lots of newspapers than any long-term damage they may be inflicting on the Blue Jays. He's not dumb -- he only writes these venemous articles because he knows it will get everyone into a froth.

The best solution to the "Griffin Problem" (ok, Bob Elliott too) is to provide better alternatives for the "average" fan to read. The BattersBox roundup threads provide an excellent counterpoint to the steaming piles of dung that Griffin and Elliott are shoveling.

Keepi in mind that BB has almost a million hits in less than 2 years. And that's with almost zero promotion. In five years time, newspapers may be considered the old, antiquated way to get information on your favorite team. It will be fun watching the revolution unfold.
Pistol - Thursday, July 22 2004 @ 12:49 PM EDT (#49868) #
Question: Would it make any sense at all for the Jays to try and move Woodward this off-season? Or would it be better to keep him around as a utility infielder? He has the potential to be alot better but he just seems to have trouble putting it all together. Would there be any interest if they did put him out there? How long is his current contract for, anyone know?

Woodward's contract is just for this year. He's arbitration eligible this year and next year (at least).

My sense is that the Jays will non-tender him this offseason.
Craig B - Thursday, July 22 2004 @ 12:52 PM EDT (#49869) #
Craig, is it (TMBG) as good as their best work previously? Who is their Edith Head-like allusion of the CD? I expect there'll be several.

Yes, it is as good (I think) though not as many catchy tunes as on Flood, Apollo 18, or John Henry.

The Edith Heads of The Spine are the spine, Franklin Delano Roosevelt, and the Tel-Ray.

Most memorable lyric... "Wearing a raincoat is flying around in a yellow rubber airplane made out of a raincoat. Yes, but when you think of that, you hurt your mind, and you'll need your mind for later on..."

The song that keeps sticking in my head is "Bastard Wants To Hit Me" which is brilliant.
_Marc - Thursday, July 22 2004 @ 12:53 PM EDT (#49870) #
Sorry to stray, so how do we "reassign" him?

The best way to try and get Griffin re-assigned or, at the very least, give him a wake up call is to gather names/signatures on a petition and send it to the publisher of the Star. Don't bother with the sports editor because he/she probably agrees with Griffin.
Pistol - Thursday, July 22 2004 @ 12:53 PM EDT (#49871) #
In five years time, newspapers may be considered the old, antiquated way to get information on your favorite team.

5 years? It's that way for me now.

Newspapers are filled with yesterday's news. If something notable happens it's on the internet nearly instantly.
_Kieran - Thursday, July 22 2004 @ 12:54 PM EDT (#49872) #
I have as much respect for Hentgen as the next guy, but riddle me this: What makes him "classier" than any other player - say Miguel Batista, Ted Lilly or Vernon Wells?

We often hear cliches like this in the media...and it's amazing how quickly they proliferate. Is Hentgen classier, because he's ineffective?

Reminds me of "solid defencemen" -- which is another way of saying a guy who can't score.
_coliver - Thursday, July 22 2004 @ 12:54 PM EDT (#49873) #
Bring back Allison Gordon!
_Moffatt - Thursday, July 22 2004 @ 12:56 PM EDT (#49874) #
Is Hentgen classier, because he's ineffective?

I think it means that he'll talk to the media after the bad game, rather than tell them to go fornicate themselves.
_Magpie - Thursday, July 22 2004 @ 01:11 PM EDT (#49875) #
Newspapers are filled with yesterday's news. If something notable happens it's on the internet nearly instantly.

True - I read many newspapers (and almost exclusively the on-line versions) but generally I'm looking entirely at opinion columnists I enjoy or despise or whatever... or for extensive background (e.g. the New York Times and the Washington Post fill their editions with transcripts and stuff)

For breaking news, one goes online to the wires...
_Rob - Thursday, July 22 2004 @ 01:11 PM EDT (#49876) #
Peterson is up, File down.
_MatO - Thursday, July 22 2004 @ 01:14 PM EDT (#49877) #
The other thread says it's Frederick with Estalella to the 60-day DL.
_The Original Ry - Thursday, July 22 2004 @ 01:15 PM EDT (#49878) #
According to ESPN, Frederick got the call-up, not Peterson. Estalella on the 60-day DL.
Named For Hank - Thursday, July 22 2004 @ 01:16 PM EDT (#49879) #
Jerry on the radio said Frederick up, File down.
_Moffatt - Thursday, July 22 2004 @ 01:24 PM EDT (#49880) #
As promised, I've started a new thread for the roster move.
_Rob - Thursday, July 22 2004 @ 01:28 PM EDT (#49881) #
Never mind. I meant to type Frederick. :)
_Rob - Thursday, July 22 2004 @ 01:29 PM EDT (#49882) #
But good job guys, three corrections in two minutes.
_Smack - Thursday, July 22 2004 @ 01:30 PM EDT (#49883) #
So I guess I would have been unclassy as a major leaguer.
Craig B - Thursday, July 22 2004 @ 01:41 PM EDT (#49884) #
You ain't too classy around here either, but this ain't a classy place so you're OK. :)
Craig B - Thursday, July 22 2004 @ 01:42 PM EDT (#49885) #
GOING... GOING... (to first base)... ZAUN!
_Mylegacy - Thursday, July 22 2004 @ 01:49 PM EDT (#49886) #
I love Delgado. Have for years.

I say bench him. Fire the manager.

Down 9-2 Delgado comes up, they've got thirty six guys, two donkeys and a cuttlefish on to the right side of second. We need BASERUNNERS, Delgado SMOKES a ball into the herd, out.

I say ORDER him to go the other way if he doesn't BENCH him. If the manager won't ORDER him to go the other way, fire the manager.

This is NOT Carlos' ballteam, his personal have a lark, play out his childhood fantasy team. This is MY f****g team and I am sick and tired on OUR ONE SUPERSTAR playing his own private game!

Carlos, I still love you, but...
_Mick - Thursday, July 22 2004 @ 02:00 PM EDT (#49887) #
Keep in mind that BB has almost a million hits in less than 2 years.

Which, much as my fellow Roster folk will deplore my saying so, is a tiny, tiny, miniscule number. Sure, it's a lot for a blog; it's literally almost nothing for a major media outlet.

Don't confuse "hits" with "readers." On some sites, if I open the home page and three article pages at 9:00 then do it again and open four article pages -- even the same ones -- at noon, that's nine "hits." Now, it doesn't work that way for Da Box, but unless I am mistaken, if I visit Batter's Box 700 straight days -- and I probably have -- then that is 700 hits.

Newspapers aren't going away any time soon, and they've already, generally speaking, changed their approach to reporting and commenting. They are next-day because they have the time to get things right (New York Post excepted) and provide in-depth followup coverage. And they are a profit center. That's not true of the real-time news provided online, particularly in free blogs; it's not true of TV news, which for most markets is a cost center; it's very true of the printed page.

And as a profit center, the first rule is "sell papers." Griffin does that. The so-called "solution to the Griffin problem" (and there isn't one -- either a problem or a solution) would be to stop reading him. But first, y'all can't do it. It's been discussed here before and everyone still reads him and reacts with the vitriole seen here today. Why?

Because he's a hell of a writer. Take away anything you want to say about his opinions, his politics, his knowledge of baseball -- believe what you want. Rich Griffin is a damn fine writer.
Leigh - Thursday, July 22 2004 @ 02:02 PM EDT (#49888) #
This is NOT Carlos' ballteam
He's the veteran leader, but if you don't think it's his team, whose is it? Roy's? Vernon's?

This is MY f****g team
Right.
robertdudek - Thursday, July 22 2004 @ 02:25 PM EDT (#49889) #
I don't think Rich Griffin sells papers - I've never heard of anyone saying that he/she bought the Toronto Star because they wanted to read Rich Griffin's column.

Technically, he may be a good writer, but anyone who either deliberately warps reality to grind an axe or is unable to understand basic facts pertaining to the subject matter isn't a good writer in my book.
_Paul D - Thursday, July 22 2004 @ 02:42 PM EDT (#49890) #
Craig B, if you're around I'd like to ask if you have any recommendations for what to do at the Expos game on Saturday. Any particular ballpark food that I need to try, or area I should visit?

Thanks.
_Stan - Thursday, July 22 2004 @ 03:06 PM EDT (#49891) #
A few points. I completely agree with Jacko. Controversy sells newspapers. I have pretty well stopped buying them for a couple of years because they all have an axe to grind. They all have a bias. I always enjoyed Alison Gordon when she was at the Star. Too bad she moved on. Anybody who takes one for the team as Hengten did yesterday without complaining, has class. Anyone who isn't afraid to come on the radio every week as JP does and doesn't hem and haw his way through it, especially after bad losses, is a breath of fresh air.
_Loveshack - Thursday, July 22 2004 @ 03:21 PM EDT (#49892) #
Anyone who isn't afraid to come on the radio every week as JP does and doesn't hem and haw his way through it, especially after bad losses, is a breath of fresh air.


Could not possibly agree more. I have a great respect for JP for doing these kinds of things and not giving the standard "no comment" answer all the time. I look forward to listening to Wednesdays with JP, it's a highlight in the middle of the week for me.
_A - Thursday, July 22 2004 @ 03:22 PM EDT (#49893) #
Paul, there's a limited amount to do at the Big-O. You can enjoy their smoker-happy concourse (unlike the Dome, people are permitted to smoke anywhere on the concourse); you could use one of the two ATMs available in the place (the lines are outrageous, I never understood why they wouldn't add a few more throughout the place); you can use the empty seat next to you as a noise-maker (I won't spoil the fun in figuring out how it works, it'll be painfully obvious when you get there -- seriously painful); and there's always the extraordinarily inaccurate "guess your speed" game.

It's a fun place to watch a game since the fans who do show up really get into it but otherwise, there isn't much to do there. But if you have some time to spend in the area and have never been to the Biodome or Botanical Gardens, they're nice places (though the Biodome is something you only want to see once).
_l l s T o N e - Thursday, July 22 2004 @ 07:09 PM EDT (#49894) #
I could never violently argue for anything in Woodward's favour (unlike say, Phelps) and I don't really see how anyone can, although he seems to have quite a following here (which often has me wondering if we've been watching the same guy over the past few years). He frustrated the hell out of me in years past with his non existant range, and overall crappy d, from time to time contributing with the stick but never so overwhelmingly that one can excuse his putrid d. He's gotten more than his fair share of life lines during his tenure with us and I don't see how anyone can say he's not already proven to be nothing more than a backup infielder at best (or a starter for the ex Rays.. not the current edition that's for sure). Some of you are only fooling yourselves into thinking he will suddenly develop into some kind of starting calibre SS, to me he is what he is and playing a steadier more reliable vet like Gomez, while not so much of a no brainer as Bordick was at the time (which is pretty sad, no disrespect to Mike who was playing at a higher level than could be expected at that point of his career), is perfectly acceptable with me over the marginal talent or 'potential' advantage (negligible at best at age 28) that Woodward offers. Then again, I'd rather he did/does play just so he can get his extended period of pt so he can fail (again) and get it over with while appeasing his backers and/or eliminating their excuses once and for all. Ultimately, maybe his misfortune (with injuries) has actually been his fortune in being able to stick around longer than he deserved to.. well that, and the fact that we had no young SS close to being major league ready.

(Reading that back I can't believe I was as hard as I was on the guy, but all the pent up frustration just exploded out.. sorry Woody ; )
_Paul D - Thursday, July 22 2004 @ 09:06 PM EDT (#49895) #
A, thanks for the advice. I've been to the Biodome,so I think I'll pass.
We're going to try to find something cool to do in Montreal during the day, and it's Fan Appreciation night at the big O.
_Rich - Thursday, July 22 2004 @ 09:19 PM EDT (#49896) #
Mick, I can't agree with your views about Richard Griffin. He is not a good writer; he is merely a good newspaper salesman. Good writers do the following:

  • Get their facts straight

  • Try to show a semblance of balance in their work, at least occasionally

  • Don't perform routine character assassinations

  • Admit when they're wrong

  • Make an honest effort to understand the subject about which they write


Griffin fails on every single one of these counts. He is to sportswriting what Howard Stern is to radio - an obnoxious blowhard who, while probably believing what he says, contributes virtually nothing of substance except controversy (which is good enough for his boss as it attracts constant attention). I also think you're wrong that he cannot be ignored. I visit waymoresports.com every day, and even though the main page never shows which column is Griffin's I can always spot it from the headline and intro, which makes it very simple to avoid. Been doing it for months and months and will continue to do so. Asking the Star to fire him will only make them happy. They don't care if you love him or hate him, so long as you read him, which I don't.

I don't intend my comments as a personal attack; away from the keyboard Griffin may well be the nicest guy around (I have no idea). From the perspective of a potential consumer of his work, I think he is absolutely abysmal at writing about baseball and the Star does a disservice to the thousands of fans who would be better served by a thoughtful, knowledgeable, and skilled columnist.
_Mick - Thursday, July 22 2004 @ 10:59 PM EDT (#49897) #
Rich, we're simply using the word "writer" in different ways. You're using it to mean "journalist" and I'm using it to mean "wordsmith." Occupation versus skill.

I'm not necessarily agreeing with everything you asserted, but I also don't think you're disagreeing with what I wrote. In the terrific stage play Inherit the Wind, Henry Drummond (a thinly-disguised Clarence Darrow) blows up at E.J. Hornbeck (a very thinly-disguised H.L. Mencken), "Hornbeck, you never pushed a noun against a verb except to blow something or someone up."

That was true of Mencken, for the most part. And yet you can make a solid argument that he is the greatest writer -- in my sense of the word -- ever produced in the United States.

Only because Douglas Adams was British, of course.
_G.T. - Thursday, July 22 2004 @ 11:10 PM EDT (#49898) #
Craig B, if you're around I'd like to ask if you have any recommendations for what to do at the Expos game on Saturday. Any particular ballpark food that I need to try

It's Montreal... you have to try the smoked meat sandwiches!
_Jonathan - Friday, July 23 2004 @ 03:05 AM EDT (#49899) #
CAn't remember the exact song, but the lyric is from Dire Straits' first album...wow, what an amazing album
Craig B - Friday, July 23 2004 @ 08:37 AM EDT (#49900) #
Craig B, if you're around I'd like to ask if you have any recommendations for what to do at the Expos game on Saturday. Any particular ballpark food that I need to try, or area I should visit?

Heh, as A points out, at Olympic Stadium itself there isn't anything to do except watch baseball and try not to get too dirty from the walls, floors, handrails and seats, which have about 30 years of accumulated grime on them. Have the smoked meat, though. For sure.

If you're so inclined, you can ride the elevator to the observation deck at the top of the tower that holds the roof up. It's got a nice view of almost the whole island, but it's really nothing special.

In the area right around the stadium, Parc Olympique, there isn't a lot except for the Biodome, Insectarium, and Botanical Gardens. These are nice but not particularly awe-inspiring.

But in the downtown area, if you're in town for more than just the ballgame, there's a lot. The "walking around" in Montreal is especially good. If you're in town for a while, the thing I most recommend is going up Mont-Royal, but that's the sort of thing that takes time, it's a long walk. But it's also free, so great if you're on a budget. St.-Denis Street is another great area just to walk around in.

There's the Old Port, down below Old Montreal. Very nice area, great walking as well. Old Montreal (the historically oldest part of the city) is a great area for walking in.

Also downtown in Chinatown, which has great reasonably-priced restaurants.

St. Catherine's Street can be fun and rowdy - if you're with the right sort of group, Montreal's peeler bars are rather legendary. (In my opinion, nothing special, but no one asks me).

There's always the Casino as well. It can be hard to get to.

All this stuff you can find with a tourist map.
_Rich - Friday, July 23 2004 @ 09:41 AM EDT (#49901) #
Mick, fair enough.
Mike Green - Friday, July 23 2004 @ 11:13 AM EDT (#49902) #
Let me second Craig's recommendation for Mont-Royal and St. Denis Street. St. Denis is a great place for a cup of coffee on an outdoor patio this time of year.
_Paul D - Friday, July 23 2004 @ 11:14 AM EDT (#49903) #
Thanks for the info Craig.
We're only going to be in Montreal from Sat morning till the end of the ballgame, but it's good to know which neighbourhoods are good ones to visit. Thanks again for the info, I'm looking forward to the game. The Expos still haven't updated their site to say what "Expos Hall of Fame Night" is, but hopefully they give me something for free.
:)
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