R. Johnson lf
O. Hudson 2b
V. Wells cf
C. Delgado 1b
F. Menechino 3b
A. Rios rf
C. Gomez ss
C. Woodward dh
K. Cash c

As Robert said, no lefties save for Delgado tonight.

I didn't know who was on the mound for the Indians until I saw that Woodward is the DH.

CeeCee with the Crooked Cap!

Can someone tell me how many phone calls does JP usually take on Wednesday. I'm interested in calling in and talking to him after todays game.

Didn't take long: one minute into the broadcast:

Rod Black - "The Blue Jays are spinning their heels".

Heels. Wow.

I'd kinda like to see that...

RB: "If it works don't break it."

I think I just found a reason to hate the Tribe. Someone needs to teach C.C. and Belliard how to dress themselves.

They look fine to me. I never understood the hat hang-up.

I'm surprised the Blue Jays are only available on cable. I know that's one advantage for Rogers, if you want to watch the Jays on TV you have to be a Rogers customer. But wouldn't they want to tease those who don't have cable into getting cable by showing the odd "Rogers Jays on CBC" game? Might it also not help attendance a little? The Jays are still a deal for a family outing, families without cable might surely like to go to some games.

Good thing they dodged the bullet of acquiring Carlos Guillen, eh Pat?

I hope I'm right. I have a feeling Miller might spin out the proverbial quality start here. He was roughed a bit coming out of the bullpen but this guys a starter and I think he'll rise to the occasion.

Lefty I think you're probably right

These Cleveland crowds are smaller than SkyDome crowds, but look so much bigger, better thanks to the way the stadium is set up. The same goes with KC, I once watched a game and was shocked there were only 16,000 there: it looked like 30,000.

I figure Boomhauer thought Menechino's lead-off HRs were wasted, thus putting that pop at #5.

Rod Black has a thing about verbally molesting the opposing shortstops. First Izturis, then Jeter, now Vizquel.

Ah, Miller's looking a little rusty still. I guess its expecting alot without the benefit of a couple rehab starts. Come on Miller bear down.

Gah. How can Tabler say Vizquel for Guillen was a good non-trade? Has he seen Carlos Guillen this season? Does he realize the man is the best shortstop in baseball right now? At least Cerutti has a clue; He'd praise Vizquel, but he'd never say anything that stupid.

Ron, the length of J.P.'s segment depends on how long the game takes, and what else is scheduled on The FAN. If you call as soon as the game is over, you'll have to wait on hold for a while, but you'll probably get on the air.

It's an interesting lineup -- I'd prefer Woody at SS and Gomez at DH, but that's nitpicking. Gibby has four good LH pinch-hitting options if the game is close later on. That will depend on the bullpen, as Miller won't go more than five innings, and the Jays solving Sabathia, who has baffled them so far.

Gotta love the old 5-2-3 to get out of a jam.

"The Blue Jays are spinning their heels".

Sounds like a Colemanism to me.

I love the Indians. They took their lumps but their rebuilding project was pretty quick considering they're in the playoff race right now.

If they could ever fix their bullpen this team could win 90 games.

Someone needs to teach C.C. and Belliard how to dress themselves.

Just turned on the game. With his crooked hat and baggy pants, all Sabathia is missing is the oversized shoes and red nose. CC the clown. Happy on the outside but sad on the inside, when the bullpen squanders his leads.

I'd prefer Woody at SS and Gomez at DH, but that's nitpicking

The idea could be that with Woody playing SS everyday, DHing him tonight is like a half-day off.

I'm concerned that this deficit may be too much for this offense to overcome. :)

Seriously, I can't remember more than one or two hard hit balls the last couple of nights.

Alright, time to call a spade a spade.

I'm sick of always seeing or hearing "you just gotta tip your cap to Durbin" or you can replace his name with EVERY OTHER mediocre starter the Jays have been shut down by.

Yes, Sabathia is a good young pitcher. But a perfect game through 4 with little to no hard hit balls?

This offense is terrible, that's the reality. Chad Durbin isn't a good pitcher, neither is Dennys Reyes and neither are any of the other guys that have shut down the Jays. They aren't "pitching great games." They are constantly making mistakes and the Jays aren't capitalizing.

Rant over

There's no doubt JP's biggest off-season task is to find 2 guys who can flat out mash.

In a span of a year the Jays offence has gone from near the top to the bottom of the league.

Heh, small victories. Good little hit Woody.

And Miller gives it right back....

Yes, Sabathia is a good young pitcher. But a perfect game through 4 with little to no hard hit balls?

Sabathia isn't just a "good young pitcher." He's ninth in the AL in ERA, and he's lefthanded, which neutralizes many of our best bats.

Not a bad job done by Miller. Not enough arm strength. But he has kept his team in the game and got the ground balls when he needed them. I think he'll be alright as long as that mysteriously lingering hammy doesn't act up.

Too bad about the location on that 3-2 to Lawton. Outside, where Cash was set up, and he would have popped out to Wells. Miller appeared to tire a little, but that was an encouraging start.

Frederick, a little wild at first, settled down to get the job done. Time for one of the big bats to do something...

Note to Rod Black, using the word "cake" doesn't make you hip.

Griffey Jr's out for the year-another torn hammy. Will it ever end for the poor guy?

If that ball was playable, why isnt that an interference call?

I hate how Black makes every nice catch seem like the play of the century. Lawton's catch was nice but he didn't need to scream about it.

by the way, my favourite Black/Tabler snippet from last night:

On Victor Martinez.

Black: He came out of nowhere.
Tabler: Well, not really, like a lot of Indians prospects....
Black: (interrupting) They all came out of nowhere
Tabler: He was highly touted
Black: Exactly

That's dynamite!

That was pretty funny-Coco just tripped over his own feet rounding 3rd. Belliard smoked that ball-Frederick's sure in a jam now.

http://www.mathesond.mindsay.com
I dunno Scott (I'm TV-less in Chicago, so I can't comment on your boothmates' performance), but it seems that Rod is getting the worst of it. Perhaps deservedly so (Hey, you put up with pairings such as Joe Carter/Chip Caray, Ken Harrelson/Darrin Jackson, Ron Santo/Pat Hughes - ok, Pat's got a pleasant voice, at least - and Ed Farmer/the other Sox radio guy - you get used to the "crap de la creme")

I'm sick of always seeing or hearing "you just gotta tip your cap to Durbin" or you can replace his name with EVERY OTHER mediocre starter the Jays have been shut down by.

Yeah, but it goes both ways. How the heck does someone like Josh Towers shut down the Yankees?

What a punk CC is. It wasn't very difficult to lip read what he was saying. The pitch was 5 inches outside. Live with it. He got mighty luck as two smoked balls get him 3 outs. Wear your hat like a ballplayer you punk.

bah, I don't agree in this instance.. CC did more than enough on his part that the ump wasn't overly confrontational (merely human) in my mind.

I agree RhyZa, the ump handled it well. Just don't steal on Cash.

that's the last time Vizquel tries that on Cash.. he's SUCH a good fielder that he deserves every shot of getting his bat up to par. (hope we don't cut bait with him too soon)

It isn't just tonight, SC.

Eh, I'm just jealous cause I want their jobs. Though, I wouldn't mind having your job either. ;-)

What an awesome throw by Cash there.

That was interesting! Hafner tries to take out Cash? Idiot! Good thing Hudson's throw was high-saved Cash a nice little collision. Pretty heads up by Cash to hurry over and tag him.

Haaaaaa, hey Hafner! It's the big white thing!

A lot of runs being scored by one team in today's games. Detroit beat Oakland 11-3, Boston leads Tampa Bay 13-1 in the fifth and LA leads Cincinnati 11-1 in the seventh. Too bad some of that runs dust can't blow on the Jays more often.

Did nobody notice the elbow that Hafner threw at Cash?

By the way is that legal? It happened a little while ago on a highlight I saw (I think it was Hunter from the Twinkies). No intent to slide, just run the catch over. He came in high and threw a block at the catchers head. Very similar to tonight.

That's a hell of a rare way to get 3 outs. 2 K's (one a PB), a CS, and a 9-4-2 putout at home.

could be the first of its kind..

Blue, I remember that Hunter/White Sox play well. The White Sox people bitched a lot, but it's completely legal. If someone's in the way on the bases, you can do whatever you'd like to get by. I guess Hafner thought Cash would be more in the baseline than up a few feet toward the mound-and had made up his mind, so sort of half-assed it.

I seen Paul Shuey get four K's in an inning once. Now thats cool!

Eventful night for Cash -- smacked upside the head with a thrown bat and very nearly Pronked. Worst baserunning since Byrnes and Tejada gave away a playoff series.

Good call to pinch-hit for KC; Zaun's OBP is no fluke. Now will Gibby bunt him over?

can Tabler say "you're absolutely right" any more times during a ballgame?? lets get some new material in there...

p.s. anybody want to go to Cleveland tomorrow?

http://www.mathesond.mindsay.com
You young'uns might not remember Albert Belle's elbow to Fernando Vina. 'Twas legal, though perhaps unethical

I think that was one of the rare plays that while not illegal, he could've scored without it thus making it arguably 'cheap'... of course if its my guy and he has any doubt I want him to do anything, within reason to score the run. And Dr. Z you're right, I remember when Greg Z blocked the plate a few times in succession this season I actually thought to myself for the first time should this really be a part of the game? But I realize it is, and that there is no way to regulate against it anyway, the only way to combat it is to run 'em over if you have to. Its kind of like sending a message with an elbow to the mid section the first time someone tries to set a pick on you in basketball to make them think twice about doing it the next time or for the rest of the game (one of my coach's 'tactics' from back in the day ; )

I seen that one too. I had both of those guys on my fantasy team that yr. As I recall Vina who was having his first real good season missed a few games. To the moon Alice.

http://www.mathesond.mindsay.com
Yo, joe, I'd love to hit Cleveland tomorrow (I've only ever driven through it, and just the one time), but a friend of mine scored bleacher seats for the Cubs game tomorrow, so I'll be ditching work early for that. My friend just recently got laid off due to a corporate merger; wonder what Lee Elia would say about that....as for me, I'm just excited to see the Padres once before my visa expires...

The Cleveland pitchers aren't going to get any close calls; Kellogg is still mad at Sabathia. Too bad Sparky went fishing, but the O-Dog (new and improved in the 2-hole) comes through again.

I sure do remember that. Belle just decked him! You're right...not particularly nice, but legal.

I would have pinch hit for Johnson there unless Johnson was going to bunt for a hit/ move the runner over. Johnson is in a pretty bad funk right now. Secondly, Howry is there best middle reliever. The worst case scenario is F-Cat up against a lefty and that would have meant them pulling Howry.

The ODog sure has played well with Gibbons as the skipper. Confidence can do wonders. Dang it Vernon! Here's where Carlos needs to earn his 18.5 M.

I could be wrong, but I don't believe the Indians have a lefty reliever. I thought we'd see Cat too, does his injury prevent him from playing the field?

I was wrong -- both those first two strikes called on Carlos were questionable.

Ryan - Gross could take over in left.

Is it me, or is Victor Martinez THE WORST catcher in the league when it comes to "the art of framing." It may be because he's young and he's still learning the ropes, but he's awful at it. It looks so unnatural when he does it.

Ryan - Gross could take over in left.

Of course, I forgot about Gross. Questionable decision there from John Gibbons. I looked it up and, unless Cliff Lee is going to come in, the Indians don't have a lefty in the pen.

Didn't Belle get suspended for that?

I remember some controversy when the Players association appealed, because some where saying that they should look out for Vina as much as they look out for Belle.

Hitting with RISP ... arghh......

I don't know Paul, I sure don't remember that part. Belle was suspended a lot...

Yeah, he could have sent Cat up to bat and Gross out to LF, but Gibby showed some faith in Reed and kept his options alive. He can still bat Hinske for Menechino and Cat for Woody (if they get that far) in the ninth.

Another good ball game that could have gone either way.

I agree with most everyone. If Johnson isn't up there bunting, I don't want him facing a RHP, not with Gross and Catalanotto on the bench.

Nice to hear the rave reviews from Tabby on Eric Crozier. I didn't realize he was such a late convert to baseball after playing basketball, which suggests that there's still room for additional improvement. Pat called him the best defensive 1B in the Indians' farm system and says he has the speed to play the outfield, too.

Bahhhh...balls that hit the ground before they hit the batter shouldn't be counted as HBP's.

Youch, that plunk on Lawton strung. Youwser.

And watch as Justin Speier is suddenly stripped of his control.

I've checked the rulebook on those, Ryan. There's absolutely nothing in there about bouncing balls. Any hits still count, any HBPs still count. It just (obviously) can't be a called strike if it bounces.

So if you swing at a bounced ball and put it into play it's a live ball?

That's interesting.

What is Gibbons doing?

First he doesn't go with Cat or Gross in the 8th and now he leaves Menechino in to face Wickman with Hinske, Cat, and Gross available.

Menechino has a .360 OBP vs. RHP this year, Dave.

Wow

Thank you Ron Belliard.

OK Bluejays, lets play ball.

Whew, I thought that was the ballgame. Thanks to Belliard for booting it. Come on now Jays. Capitalize!

I know it might not mean much, but Mighty Mouse's numbers against RHP are actually better than Hinske's.

Damn

Woodward just missed that one

Come on Zaun. This would probably be one of the more "clutch" hits for the season.

Damn! If Woody pulls that even a little, it's gone.

That's the EXACT same spot Woody flied out to last time.

Oh come on...



The season from hell continues

Son of a....

I HATE it when teams make a bunch of errors and run themnselves out of innings but still win.

Uhhhhhhhh, 2004. hmppphhhhhh

2 men on with 1 out in both the 8th and the 9th. asdf;lkj

I'd prefer to think of it as spring training rather than the continuence of the season from hell. Its time for this team to start the process of re-bonding and I seen some things from the manager tonite trying to win this game.

I hate to say this, but I can't wait for this season to end so we can start building for next year. It's just been a nightmare season. I now fully expect them them to lose each game they play, which is a really sad state for a die-hard fan such as myself to be in.

Go Jays Go in 2005!!

Far from his biggest fan but I've said it before.. the one thing that Woody does have a little of is pop, but not enough to be swinging for the fences. He should have line drives or hard hit singles on his mind if he wants any hope in hell of taking advantage of what seems like his 9th life given to him on this team.

1-7 in the last 8 games. In those 7 loses the Jays have combined to score 16 runs.

I like the way the Indians went about rebuilding better than what the Jays have been able to do. That trade of Colon to Montreal was just the biggest freaking jump start I've ever seen from a team. That combined with their own home grown talent has set the club up really nicely.

They can now probably deal excess talent for the final pieces of the playoff puzzle in 2005. Or afford to slurge a bit on the free agent market knowing the fans will be marching back to the Jake.

Nice job Shapiro.

Losing is no fun, but holding Cleveland to five runs in two games is an accomplishment, and there's no quit in this team. They still haven't had Wells and Delgado in a groove at the same time all year; sooner or later that will happen and we'll enjoy a winning streak.

He should have line drives or hard hit singles on his mind

I think Woody was trying for doubles in the gap and hit them too hard. Great swings, unfortunate results.

Rios had a nice game...3-for-4 plate appearances. Rios is the only reason to watch lately. :)

And Gross.

And Bush. And Hudson. And the pleasure of watching the slumping guys come out of it -- soon.

J.P. just said he won't have to be fired if things haven't turned around by 2006 and 2007 -- he'll resign.

The pitching match-up for Sunday's game is Daniel Cabrera vs. Dave Bush. I'd love to be behind home plate for that one, but I can't go.

I'm trying to call in but for some reason I can't connect using the number 1-888-666-0590

I hate to say this, but I can't wait for this season to end so we can start building for next year. It's just been a nightmare season. I now fully expect them them to lose each game they play, which is a really sad state for a die-hard fan such as myself to be in.

Go Jays Go in 2005!!

Man, you're not alone. A lot of long faces out there.

I'm still intrigued by what this team can do down the stretch, blending in some more of the young talent and breaking in a new manager, giving him a look-see.

But right now, for a rooter, it's a brutal, brutal stretch.

A caller named Ron (I sure hope it's not the guy who posts here) read off a tedious, Griffinesque, selective list of departed Jays who supposedly have thrived elsewhere and J.P. acquisitions that have been disappointing. It was a complete waste of everyone's time, as ludicrous as his allegation that "80 percent" of Carlos Tosca's mangerial decisions were wrong. No mention of the tens of millions saved, and convenient amnesia about Batista, Lilly, Menechino, Zaun, Hinske, Frasor, Gomez, Bordick, Catalanotto. What an annoying twit.

That moron Ron that called in wasn't me.

And Bush. And Hudson. And the pleasure of watching the slumping guys come out of it -- soon.

Oops, I meant position players. The pitching has been great to watch.

I admit, I was expecting a Lidle-like season from Lilly this year, but he's been a pleasant surprise (for me.)

As for the slumping guys...I don't know how much pleasure I will get out of watching Delgado have a hot-streak, knowing that he's going to be gone after this year...in fact, it may hurt more to see him go. But that's my pessimism.

Watching Wells bust out would be nice though, my fantasy teams need that. :)

Yeah, I figured that out, Ron, and I'm relieved. :)

oh crap, I completely forgot about Wednesday's with JP.

lol. next caller "Bill in a hot tub"

Beats "Allan on the Expressway"

Once that caller said he had a "list" of names I knew it would be full of Miller's, Hendrikson's, etc... and I knew he would casually forget to mention Lilly, Frasor, Gomez, Frankie, etc...

What a moron.

When asked about Crozier he couldn't say for sure that he was going to get called up or was going to be the answer at 1B if Delgado leaves. A player that would come cheap and who I would love to see in a Jays uni next season is Tony Clark.

Dude! He just answered the question about Quantrill and Izturis!

Wow, I thought this was "wednesday's with JP," not "Beat the dead horse."

Just commiserating.

It's been total regression in '04. Incidentally, I haven't noticed Mike Barnett taking any heat, which is a bit surprising. This is one light-hitting, and arguably underachieving, team.

Just the other day, one of our drive-by critics tossed out the name Prokopec as "evidence" that Ricciardi's plan isn't working. I didn't take the bait at the time, because you can always tell a Bob Elliott fan, but you can't tell them much. They tend to "forget" about Mike Sirotka, Joey Hamilton, Raul Mondesi, Alex Gonzalez, Homer Bush and all of the other catastrophically bad, cripplingly expensive mistakes J.P. had to clean up before moving forward.

JP sees Towers as the #5 starter next year with Miller in the BP.

J.P. just said he won't have to be fired if things haven't turned around by 2006 and 2007 -- he'll resign

That doesn't give me any comfort. What I'd rather hear is Godfrey step up to the plate and say on behalf of Rogers; What we have asked of JP is completely unrealistic we recognise that now. The fans have spoken with their seats. JP has given the team liposuction and now big Ted is going to show a commitment to Canadian baseball fans and add fifteen million to the current payroll.

I think I'd resign too if I were him and it became immpossible build a truly competitive club in the AL east.

I think its becoming increasingly clear next season might be just as long as this one. Unless theres something coming that we can not see yet then the Jays will likely be picked to finish in the basement in the A.L. East in 05. Not that theres anything wrong with that if it is crystal clear to the fanbase that this is the end of the suffering.

JP just said he talks to Cito Gaston a fair bit and bounces ideas off him.

http://www.torontobaseballguys.com
Even though Prokopec didn't work out, that was still a good trade. It removed Quantrill's salary from the payroll, and the Jays haven't suffered by losing Izturis and his anemic bat - we still have enough of those in house.

Coach, did you happen to get the email I sent you regarding the game on the 27th?

Incidentally, I haven't noticed Mike Barnett taking any heat, which is a bit surprising. This is one light-hitting, and arguably underachieving, team.

Honestly, man, I've been kicking around the idea of a "Barnettism Is Dead" article for a couple of weeks now. But I can't kick a man who has had so little hitting talent to work with most of the year, even if the performance of his charges is, nonetheless, very disappointing.

I hesitate to say that the league's pitchers have figured out Mike Barnett, but it's looking that way.

I agree with Lefty. I don't think the Jays can contend in the AL east without a higher payroll. Their starting staff, while respectable, isn't dominating enough; the pen is average at best; defense is about average overall; and the lineup is uneven at best, though it has potential. I expect JP will make some improvements, but without some extra payroll, it will be more "patching" while the Yanks and Boston load up on premium talent.

I think I'd resign too if I were him and it became immpossible build a truly competitive club in the AL east.

As would I. If 2007 came around and things looked no better off than in 2004, I would be gone before the season started. J.P. will still be in demand elsewhere no matter how the Toronto job goes.

But if 2007 comes around and things look no better, there may not be a team to manage. I know this sounds crazy, but I do believe it's a possibility that can't be ignored.

This guy on now is hilarious. JP and Godfrey need to be canned and Rogers is a horrible owner.

He said Godfrey doesnt know anything about baseball, haha!

lol. this guy is absolutely hilarious. According to him, JP is a con artist.

This is freakin Great!! I agree, 3 years and Nadda, who isnt sick of this 5 year plan, lets sit back and watch them loose.

LMAO! "Only solution is to bring back Gillick and Beeston"

"You should be fired but if Godfrey was fired, you could probably do a good job"

Fear not, Lefty. Halladay-Batista-Lilly-Bush-Miller isn't a last-place rotation, and there is absolutely no way the hitting won't be improved in '05.

I join you in wishing that Rogers would open the vault, but I also wish I was 20 years younger and 40 pounds lighter. Let's be realistic -- only a playoff team is going to sell tickets in this town, and spending more money does NOT guarantee winning, no matter what that idiot currently on the radio thinks.

Jim, I don't think I got your e-mail. COMN.

Sounds like his problem is with Godfrey, Bring back Gillick and Beeston. He sounds Angry, gots guts!! "what does cutting, have to do with the fan" "Toronto is not a small market"

JP says he respects his opinion, and looks forward to making him disapointed in 2007?? 2007 4 years of crap, how many fans do they think they are going to keep?

Yeah, it's tough to evaluate Barnett when the lineup has been so decimated this year. And there are some bright spots: Rios, Zaun, Gomez, Menechino. But the long-term projects--Hinske, Hudson, Wells--seem to have stalled. Obviously the lack of power is a major problem. But I find the team's low OBP even more troubling. Barnett's approach is based on patience, awareness of the strike zone, selectivity, and making the opposing pitcher work. But this year the Jays look more like the Ash clubs--free swinging, lots of strikeouts, and low OBP.

Okay, let's face facts.

A) Carlos Delgado is not coming back
B) Pat Gillick is not coming back

So stop asking about them!!

This is freakin Great!! I agree, 3 years and Nadda

Im just curious, when you give someone a job to do and they tell you it's going to take an hour, do you fire them when it's not done in 35 mins? Or do you let them finish and then judge the results?

Barnett's approach is based on patience, awareness of the strike zone, selectivity, and making the opposing pitcher work

well, I think its safe to say that Vernon has tuned him out then.

How about 4 years, is that enough time for JP

Well since he said *five* years when he was hired (and you knew that) then I would think probably not. It's been over a decade since the Jays were good, why begrudge the man one measly season?

And how could me mention Jose Cruz without mentioning Frank Catalanatto? I mean basically the Cat was a direct replacement for Cruz. How goofy.

The only thing I might have done differently in the game was pinch hit Cat for Reed against Howry. Both Miller and Frederick got away with quite a bit and no-one including Speier really seemed to have much control when they needed it.

It was a good call-in show tonight as some people with beefs, some legitimate, got a chance to have a real dialogue with JP. I thought the only good point brought up was that Rogers needs to be a little more forthcoming with the funds despite the financial beating the team has taken lately. At one time they agreed to put $70 million on the line following a season of about .500 ball. I think if they gave JP even $10 million more than he currently has we can do a lot of things to supplement the current core of the team.

All I can say is, thank God for Boomhauer.

Dude has brightened the season for me...

Stupidy, cause I dont like watching a bad team year after year

Yeah.

Remember back in the day when the Blue Jays went 86-76? Man, that was so long ago. Memories.

This is JP's third year in charge of the team.

There is nothing wrong with Barnett's philosophy; it's just been poorly executed by many players this year. Some have been hurt, some have been pressing. There's been a tendency to swing at too many pitches, instead of waiting for the mistakes. Barney can't make them more patient; that's up to each hitter.

Too bad the toll-free number didn't work for me .... anyways

that was the first time tuning into Wednesday's with JP and it was really interesting.

I give that one memorable caller credit for voicing his displeasure directly to JP. I'm slowly getting off the JP wagon and see next year as a put up or shut up year because the kids on the roster will have some experience under their belt and for the first time since he got here he will have 13+ mil to go shopping for FA's.

I can understand the side of the caller and JP. For the caller he wants results and is sick and tired of hearing down the road in a few years, etc.... sports is a what have you done for me lately business....

But at the same time a 50 mil payroll really limits your options on roster moves when compared to your division rivals. Although you can win without having a Red Sox/Yanks payroll as the Marlins proved last season.

I cracked up when JP asked the caller what would you do with a 50 mil payroll? and then the caller replied "I wouldn't take the job with a 50 mil payroll"

- but it's pretty clear Delgado is gone and JP's focus in the off-season is the get some bullpen arms as well as a DH and 1B.

My dream would be to sign Sexson and Clark.

Interesting that JP sees Towers as the 5th man with Miller in the 'pen. Does that mean Miller goes to setup or closer as some around here have speculated? I don't want to see Miller stuck as long man. I think he's better than that.

Incidentally, there are some major their/there/they're and your/you're issues around here. I know personal attacks have been a touchy subject as of late, so I won't pick any names...but it gets difficult to read at times.

I think JP has done an excellent job, given his mandate (ie, slash $20 in payroll and build a contender). He's made some great moves over the last couple of years (Lilly, Batista, Frasor, Bordick, Myers, Cat, Zaun, Gomez--to name a few). The Jays were also slammed with serious injuries in '04, both in the majors and minors.

I think the problem is his mandate. Give JP $75 million, and I think he'll put a contender on the field in 2006 and 2007. Give him $48-53 million, and I think the Jays finish behind New York and Boston. Period.

Yikes, did I just write that?

Fans are supposed to sit back, and watch their team not make the playoffs for 11 years and accept it?

JP can't do anything about the eight years prior to when he joined the team. It's kind of silly to put that weight on him.

And in baseball circles, 11 years without a playoff appearance is not unusual when you haven't built a dynasty. It took Gillick a good 6 or 7 years and that's when payrolls were hardly an issue.

Give J.P. time. His draft picks haven't gotten to the majors yet and many are tearing up the minors. If they don't pan out, then J.P. goes and the Jays start from scratch...again.

But if 2007 comes around and things look no better, there may not be a team to manage. I know this sounds crazy, but I do believe it's a possibility that can't be ignored.

I do fear what Craig says though. The fan base is getting smaller and smaller. After the Expos leave Montreal, the Jays could end up being the next target. It could happen and how devastating would that be!?

btw, I had to switch to Netscape to be able to post. The IP 66.185.85.68 has been banned (probably the one used by that File confidant back or one of the other trolls back when we had problems.) Most of the time I've tried to post and find my IP banned. I've been told I'm not on the banned list, but since I have a dynamic IP, some the IPs my computer uses are banned.

I would agree, Mike. Give JP the chance to have his draft picks make it to the majors and see what they can do. First impressions are looking pretty good with David Bush...

http://www.torontobaseballguys.com
As bad as this season has been, it could have be quite a bit worse. Picture Roy Halladay headed for Tommy John surgery, or Alexis Rios hitting .230 at Syracuse, or Rich Aurilia hitting .220 and signed to a 2-year, $10 million deal at short.

Yes, the Jays aren't going to be the surprise team in the AL this year, and that's too bad. But on the upside, they enter the 2005 season with no albatross contracts, an improving crop of young players and a man at the helm with a game plan on how to get better. There's really no reason the Jays can't contend as early as next year.

As rough as 2004 has been, I'd much rather be Jays fan than someone rooting for other possible "contenders" like Arizona, or Houstong, or the Mets, or Seattle.

Coach, I resent that email using a different email address.

http://www.torontobaseballguys.com
Hmmm, that should read "a Jays fan" and Houston. That's the last time I eschew the "Preview" option...

How many years did it take Gillick to get the Jays to the playoffs? Shouldn't JP be given some leeway?

Gillick was a solid GM in his prime but i find his timing just perfect...leaves Toronto in 1993 (?)...they go into a freefall...leaves the Orioles...they go into a freefall...retires from Seattle...they have a terrible 2004 season...this guy really knows the perfect time to get out... :)

C.

Johnny, if you read the threads frequently, you'd know Coach understands what people think of the Jays. Flip on the TV and look at the attendance. Try and give away tickets. It's a tough turnaround process, but the building blocks are in place.
Question for you: starting 3 years ago, and even with the benefit of hindsight, what would YOU have done differently, Johnny?
JP may have made a few mistakes, but he made a lot of correct decisions. And behind every one of his moves, you can see his logic. Sure, he hasn't done a great job, but he's done a pretty damn good one.

Thanks Paul. We have a couple dozen entries on the banlist, almost all spammers. That one's not a spammer; it was our lovely friend "O.J. Simpson" who fills the forums with hate.

Mike, more than moving the team (a distant though non-zero chance) I'm more concerned about contraction becoming an issue, as it surely will after the current CBA (which has placed a moratorium on it) expires n 2006.

Loosing Delgado is going to hurt the club in alot of ways.

And $19 million isnt going to help? If they can re-sign Delgado then great I hope he can return. But I am so glad that his contract is up this year.

JohnnyS99, spelling never was your forte, was it?

For those who listened to JP, what was his tone? Was he frustrated, apologetic, content?

You do have valid points - exclamation points. Battersbox should charge 25 cents for each usage.
How much would you give Delgado? How long a deal? How do you think it would impact wins/losses? Get to the meat of your arguments. Basic statements like "field a winner and sign Delgado!" are somewhat lacking.

In hindsight it's really great the Aurilia refused to even consider Toronto. The only way the Jays will win in a quick fix scenario is if they get guys to agree to below market to play here (like Batista.) Even if Unlce Ted loosens the purse strings like that idiot caller thought, what does it mean? Two extra players? Is that enough? Is it worth the money?

The thing I feel most disheartening is how Hinske, Phelps, and Woodward never improved upon 2002. Sure, there were injury or playing time issues (which is the main reason I support the Tosca firing) but having those guys not pan out as expected sets them back a couple years until they find better options. Not that Hinske is a bust, or should be replaced or anything, but I never expected the bulk of his value to be in his glove. And now he's locked in long-term and it doesn't look like we have a potential elite third baseman anymore. Phelps was dealt for less experience, a couple arb years, less power, and more glove. Crozier is also about the same age. Woody is about to be non-tendered. Even if Adams and Crozier work out next year, who's to say they won't regress in 2006 and beyond?

And Ron: If Tony Clark is the answer I don't want to know the question.

Fear not, Lefty. Halladay-Batista-Lilly-Bush-Miller isn't a last-place rotation, and there is absolutely no way the hitting won't be improved in '05.

I join you in wishing that Rogers would open the vault, but I also wish I was 20 years younger and 40 pounds lighter.

Me too Coach, but I'd settle for 20 lbs. But seriously, Tampa and Baltimore are showing no signs of standing pat. Both teams have a pretty nice core now and will certainly be improved. Without some serious pop at any of 1st, SS, or the outfield / DH, a pretty decent rotation and bullpen improvement is going to go to waste.

I do not claim exclusivity to the additional 15 million idea. In fact it was Robert who is usually a pretty serious guy who suggested the 75 million payroll last week. I happen to think he's right.

As would I. If 2007 came around and things looked no better off than in 2004, I would be gone before the season started. J.P. will still be in demand elsewhere no matter how the Toronto job goes.

But if 2007 comes around and things look no better, there may not be a team to manage. I know this sounds crazy, but I do believe it's a possibility that can't be ignored.

Craig, this is exactly what I fear.

I for one don't want to see Delgado back unless it was for way below market value.

I've seen signs of him mailing it in this year.

The Jays are better off using his money to get younger bats.

And you dont think JP understands this? You dont think he understands that he needs to upgrade the offense (esp. if Delgado leaves)? I seem to recall him mentioning something about looking at first base and possibly DH in the offseason...

On this topic...who are some of the first basemen/DH-types that JP should be looking at this offseason?

Here is a partial list (dont know who exactly is a free agent):

Kevin Millar 1B/OF/DH (free agent, i think...dont know about him - his defense at any position is awful)
Paul Konerko 1B Chw (free agent)
Carlos Pena 1B Det (talk of him being non-tendered)
Scott Hatteberg/Durazo/Dan Johnson 1B/DH Oak (trade via Oak pipeline)
Richie Sexson 1B Arz (free agent)
Heop Seop Choi 1B LA (cant see DePodestra trading him but they do have Loney who is close)
Lyle Overbay 1B Mil (need to make room for Fielder soon)
Ryan Howard 1B Phi (kind of blocked)
Phil Nevin/Ryan Klesko 1B SD (via trade, think these guys may have veto rights though)
Calvin Pickering 1B KC

Who else am i missing?

I know it's been said...but it seems to be forgotten after losses like this. This team really isn't that far off. Some power hitters and better luck should cure a lot of things. Hopefully there will be a few big bats in the offseason. That's clearly priority 1 for JP, and it appears that he knows it.

That's an interesting list Chris. Not that any free agent list is, but this one is especially not filled with can't miss guys. I expect Sexson to resign with Ariz, and I don't think Overbay will get moved-not after this breakout season at least. The rest of them? Eh. JP could very well take one, have him flop, then get ripped by Griffin et al for it.

Tony Clark is missing from that list.

Would love to see JP sign him.

Ryan Howard 1B Phi (kind of blocked)

Howard is an interesting possibility, but I think they may deal with the situation by non-tendering Pat Burrell (if Howard can play left, that is), in which case Burrell makes a more attractive option than even Howard.

Ron, why are you so high on Clark? Just curious, cause he's one of those guys I look at and wonder how he ever gets a hit.

Konerko's a guy who had one bad year among 3 or 4 good ones-I'd like to see him in a Jays uni.

I am sure I have read somewhere that Howard has some defensive limitations. He has turned himself into a decent defensive first basemen (BA: surprisingly good defender for a big man) but outfield may be a stretch...

But if 2007 comes around and things look no better, there may not be a team to manage. I know this sounds crazy, but I do believe it's a possibility that can't be ignored.

It has to be ignored. I think it's very dangerous to float this thought out there. Have times really changed so much since the 70s and the 80s? In those times when Cleveland could draw 600 fans to a game and the Seattle Mariners never imagined they would draw 1 million fans per season. The Blue Jays are drawing 20,000 per game - and these Blue Jays are arguably at the lowest point in their franchise history. Things can only get better, right? Bud Selig has said contraction is dead forever. 4 million fans is still somewhat fresh in people's memory. It would be nuts to take baseball out of Toronto. If they can't move teams (where are you going to move them to? see the Montreal situation) - and if they aren't going to contract... I think we're safe. Even if Rogers gets sick of owning the Jays (which I doubt will happen for quite some time) someone will step up and buy the Jays. They're a good investment. Baseball in North America's 5th largest city can and has thrived and will do so again. It's not so easy for a team to go away.

I'm not much of a fan of Tony Clark's batting average. Maybe off the bench he has some pop. Here are the only 2 other notables:
Derrek Lee
Greg Colbrunn (off the pine)

Maybe it's best to find a young minor leaguer for first base, and focus more on outfielders where the crop seems a bit richer.
Here's a good list of free agents - seems updated recently (has Scott Erickson listed as a Texas Ranger):
http://kmbumb.people.wm.edu/05agency.html

Forget Derrek Lee - I'm wrong. Shouldn't trust my memory.

Kevin Millar 1B/OF/DH (free agent, i think...dont know about him - his defense at any position is awful)

If he keeps going like he is, the Sox will probably re-sign him. Also, he may be horrible, but he's horrible at THREE positions! Actually, he's pretty decent in LF at Fenway. Won't translate elsewhere, though. Also, he suffers from foot in mouth disease. Might not be the best guy in the clubhouse even if he sometimes might be, if that makes sense. As a Sox fan, I have an Elaine/Puddy relationship with him.

Paul Konerko 1B Chw (free agent)

After I drafted him to be my 1B in a fantasy league last year, I wouldn't trust him as far as I could throw him. He's inconsistent, maybe the slowest runner in baseball, and is no great shakes with the glove. Will probably be overpirced too.

Carlos Pena 1B Det (talk of him being non-tendered)

Very intriguing. I think he'd work well. I doubt they'd non-tender him, though.

Scott Hatteberg/Durazo/Dan Johnson 1B/DH Oak (trade via Oak pipeline)

Billy would never give up his preciousssss. Maybe they can get Koonce? It seems like he's really blocked and could be productive.

Richie Sexson 1B Arz (free agent)

He would be an absolute terror in this park. Probably will be too pricey, though.

Heop Seop Choi 1B LA (cant see DePodestra trading him but they do have Loney who is close)

Imagine the PR disaster if DePo lets him go after all this. No way he's available. One of the main selling points is that he has one more year even before arbitration. No way.

Lyle Overbay 1B Mil (need to make room for Fielder soon)

He's come back down to earth in recent months. He might be worth a shot, though.

Ryan Howard 1B Phi (kind of blocked)

Maybe the prototype for what they should be looking for.

Phil Nevin/Ryan Klesko 1B SD (via trade, think these guys may have veto rights though)

Nevin had a no-trade clause. Also, his power has dried up (although that may be due to Petco) and he's injury prone. Klesko seems done.

Calvin Pickering 1B KC

It's funny how this guy was a 6 year minor league FA this past offseason. I don't know why JP didn't take a flier on him.

Before the season I was thinking they should sign Koskie and move Hinske to first. Koskie could be a box office draw as the best Canadian they've ever had (Q doesn't really count because he was a setup guy) and he's proven himself to be a great glove man on turf and he's hit better without having to contend with the baggie. Then, several things happened. Hinske didn't bounce back after his hamate healed and wouldn't provide enough offense for 1B, and also he has become a pretty great defender. Also, Koskie has been pretty bad when he hasn't been hurt. I wouldn't want to give him the 6M/yr it would take.

Dont you think the Jays are set in the outfield? Wells in CF, Rios in RF, Gross in LF. Reed Johnson as the 4th/5th OF...Catalonotto could be back too as DH and 4th/5th OF...and Crozier can play some OF as well. I assume JF Griffin will be close by in Syracuse...

C.

It would be nuts to take baseball out of Toronto.

KT, I agree. Any moron can see that there is terrific potential in this market. Unfortunately, the Powers That Be that run baseball are not just any moron.

Interesting game in the NL as LA blew out Cincinnati -- and not just because Junior is out for the year again.

Interesting per Da Box's discussion two days ago about how the Yankees are dumping all their good young players, as the opposing starting pitchers were Jeff Weaver and Brandon Claussen ... two years ago at this time on ESPN.com, I had those two written in ink behind Mussina and Pettitte as the Yanks' second righty and second lefty in the rotation for 2004, respectively.

Of note to Jays fans, the leadoff hitters in that selfsame game were Cesar Izturis and Felipe Lopez. With Shannon Stewart and Mike Young each getting a fair amount of action atop their respective lineups this year, are ex-Jays leading the world in current leadoff men?

Dont you think the Jays are set in the outfield?

Yes Chris! The starting staff's fairly set and the 'pen's getting a tad closer to being set. Like I said earlier-this team's just not that far away.

Powers That Be that run baseball are not just any moron.

LOL!!

Dont you think the Jays are set in the outfield? Wells in CF, Rios in RF, Gross in LF. Reed Johnson as the 4th/5th OF...Catalonotto could be back too as DH and 4th/5th OF.

I agree, that if Cat comes back, I think the Jays have a full complement of outfielders. However, that still leaves a DH slot to fill, as well as first base. Either of these positions, especially the DH slot, can be filled by an outfielder. It's always better to have a DH that can play the field rather than one that can't, though a guy who can field may be a luxury the Jays can't afford.

I would hesitate to depend on one rookie and one guy barely beyond a rookie, in Gross and Rios. It would help to have Cat around, to take that pressure off, and if not, then another outfielder who can be a regular if needed is important.

I had Konerko last year too...waived him...grabbed the next week on FAAB for $10 and had a nice keeper for this season and he has rewarded me very nicely...

Well, Choi won't come cheaply. But at the beginning of this season the Dodgers were completely in love with Loney and I think there was serious consideration of having him start the season in the majors...he was great in spring training before getting injured...his numbers this season have suffered as a result of the injury. What would LA want in exchange for Choi or Loney?

Saw an article in one of the Detroit papers about the Tigers non-tendering Pena...came from a writer so its probably pure speculation on the writers part...(but have you looked at his average?! Its Delgado-like!).

C.

The future for the Arizona Diamondbacks is far bleaker. Their attendance is falling off just like Toronto's did. As well, remember all those deferred contracts during their World Champion building years? They'll be paying millions to their former players for another decade.

Or how about the Pittsburgh Pirates? How many times have they had to start over their rebuilding process?

KC Royals are going to have to start from scratch again!

I like Tony Clark at the price tag which I think JP could get him at. I doubt he will command more than a million. Don't get me wrong I'm not saying Clark is a replacement for Delgado straight up but I'm thinking from the standpoint that JP is working on a small budget and a player like Clark who is solid on the field and has some pop might fit in with the Jays. Of course I expect JP if he signed Clark to still sign another batter with more pop and at a higher price range.

Carlos Pena really interests me but I think the Tigers would keep him. He has pop in his bat but his defence is poor and strikes out a ton.

btw: I don't think Scott Carson appreciated us being so hard on Rob Black tonight :) !

KT, those cities are all 100% contraction-proof. Why? They are in the U.S., meaning they send representatives to Congress.

We saw this the last time the contraction bugbear was raised... what drove them off Florida was the specter of the politicians getting involved, and eventually Minnesota was abandoned for the same reason.

Toronto doesn't send anyone to Washington. No, Toronto and Montreal are the obvious choices for The Fire Next Time.

I've been thinking. Why not re-sign Cat and have him play first base? The A's have proven with Hatteberg that you don't really need a BIG MASHER at first, and I think Cat, when healthy would be a good comparision to Hatteberg.

Thoughts?

I might be out to lunch, but I would like to get away from Cat. I think he's a great individual, and a great player when healthy, but his health issues are too much to bear. I hate to cite a primordial statistic, but Cat just doesn't hit enough homers, and I fear with his health problems, he won't make a huge turnaround. Not enough to play DH in the AL.
I'd also hate to get caught without a masher off the bench. No Chad Hermansens or Marvin Bedards in AAA, but if Gross needs some re-tooling in the minors, perhaps a one-year deal with a Danny Bautista (at a paycut) or Matt Stairs.
Anybody have any interest in re-signing Brad Fullmer?

It would be nice if the Jays could deal for one of these prospects tearing up AAA (but highly doubtful, i guess):

Johnny Gomes OF TB
Jason Dubois OF Chc (remember him?)
Jon Knott OF/1B SD
Ryan Church OF Mon

C.

In regards to Delgado re-signing, is it true that he can only accept a 20% pay cut? I was under the impression that this only applied to arbitration, but I've read a lot of artcles this year that seem to contradict that. Can anyone help me out with this?

I think Pena is a long shot to recover the potential he had in the minors. Although he is still Eric Crozier's age so a turnaround is still possible as long as you're not gambling your season on whether he comes into his own.

Loney and Choi seem natural targets for both Toronto and Oakland given their connections with DePo. I'm not sure what the Jays could give up for one of those guys...they don't have much in the way of expendable hitting or pitching depth at the moment. About the only player they will retain with huge trade value next year is Wells.

I also think it's probable that DePo being the sharp cookie he is will hold on to Loney and see if he rebounds before flipping Choi for something else he needs in the second half of '05.

I thought of Fullmer but didnt think JP would be interested in bringing him back. He was pretty inexpensive this year...and with his subpar season (and injuries) he could be an affordable option with good results next year...

Anybody have any interest in re-signing Brad Fullmer?

Only if we get to shoot him out of the cannon.

In regards to Delgado re-signing, is it true that he can only accept a 20% pay cut?

The 20% rule applies to the Jays offering arbitration. If they want to retain the right to negotiate with him past a certain date and retain the right to draft compensation should he leave, their qualifying offer has to be at least 80% of his 2004 salary. Which would mean their offer would probably have to be between $14 and $15 million. They aren't going to offer that because chances are he will accept given the season he's had.

Delgado CAN choose to agree to a contract of any amount of his own free will before the deadline to offer arbitration. But it's unlikely that he would sign for VERY much lower even if he wanted to because the Player's Association might intervene the way they did with A-Rod. If Delgado takes a huge paycut it will probably be to play for another team.

I think the best the Jays can do is offer an incentive one year deal, maybe with bonuses or extra years that kick in based on performance. I doubt Carlos will be offered big money on a guaranteed multiyear deal.

Montreal will already be gone by then to a US market. They wouldn't want to contract just one team. And why Toronto? Minnesota was up for contraction because the owner wanted them contracted. And Montreal was just an obvious pain in the side of every other owner. I'm sure they don't feel the same way about Toronto, we're not the burden that Montreal is. Though I see that if the organization doesn't return to health there's the threat that might come to be. But remember those headlines when Montreal was in the Wild Card chase a few years ago and they drew - gasp - 16,000 to a game in September. The Montreal franchise has been in exponentially worse shape than Toronto for well over a decade (I don't remember the crowds in Montreal being that great even in 1994). There's no need to think about eliminating a club that draws 20,000 average in last place. When Minnesota was up for contraction they were playing .500 and moving to contention and they were averaging below 10,000 per game.

Maybe all those games I spent sitting with 6,000 others in the Kingdome of 1980s Seattle make me see the Toronto situation as rosier than you might (you, obviously, who would remember 50K per night in the early 90s - I wasn't here for that).

Fullmer would be a good option at lefty DH if he isn't still sore about being traded in the first place.

I hope JP can pull off some "Beane" mahig and find the next Hatteberg. He was a spare part for the Red Sox but even since he went to the A's, he's been a excellent player.

There's gotta be one of these types of guys this off-season that is available, it's JP's job to find him.

I'm interested to see if the Halo's will make a real effort to resign Glaus considered he's been banged up the past 2 seasons and they have McPherson ready to step in.

Do you think there is any chance that Rogers or Godfrey realize the "PR" hit they may take by not seriously going after Delgado and actually offer a "reasonable" contract?

Something along the lines of $25M over 3 years with significant incentives based on attendance or wins (I know thats probably not realistic or sensible, just me wishing)...

C.

Thanks for clearing that up for me, R Billie.

I don't know what the Angels will do with Glaus. They'll probably re-sign him, since Moreno is payroll crazy, but who knows. I think that his problem with righties is behind him after the corrective eye surgery. He was DESTROYING all pitchers before going down, while injured to boot, so if you want an undervalued guy, there he is. It'd probably be best to get him to move to 1B which could be dicey, but I'd pay up to 7M a year for him. And that's even if he can't be insured. I'm that confident that he would kill the ball in the Dome. It probably isn't worth the risk for the Jays, though.

I'm not sure what potential there is for Glaus, but I'd love to see him as a Jay. I would probably even pay more than 7M. I'd give him more than I'd give Delgado at this point-even with the injury.

I just hope the Jays don't run into the problem they seemed to face this past offseason: some free agents are reluctant to come to TO for whatever reason.

I'm very interested to see what Delgado (because of poor performance this season and his age), Sexson (injuries), and Glaus (injuries) get this off-season.

And of course there's always that 5% chance the Yanks will sign Pedro AND Beltran in the off-season.

Again, I'm not saying that Toronto is a "good" contraction candidate. on the merits. I'm just asserting that Toronto is the only contraction candidate (other than the Expos) that is politically viable. Don't forget, from the financial point of view of MLB owners the Expos have already been contracted; the "franchise" has been bought and paid for, and so the financial hit is swallowed.

Montreal will already be gone by then to a US market.

One would ordinarily think so, but the consensus around baseball in 2000 was that the Expos wouldn't possibly see the beginning of the 2001 season in Montreal.

It's now mid-2004, and it is increasingly unlikely that the Expos will be moved for the 2005 season. MLB recently blew by its fourth deadline this year for making an announcement on where the Expos would be moved. They recently went back to each of the potential ownership groups and asked them to sweeten their deals.

The Expos can't be temporarily moved outside of Montreal; my own understanding is that there is no facility anywhere in the U.S. that can be converted on a temporary basis into a major-league-ready facility for a team on a full-season basis. San Juan was a financial bloodbath this year from the looks of things; I can't imagine them going there at all. Monterrey isn't ready to host a team on a full-time basis, and Mexico City is a non-starter in my view; the union would have a fit.

Any move outside of Montreal, other than for a split schedule, is going to have to be a permanent move. Then when you add in the fact that the best candidate, D.C., loses its window of opportunity for city funds on December 31, and I honestly believe that both sides will end up playing chicken right into December, and it will be a game they will both lose (in classic chicken style).

The Expos will play in Montreal in 2005.

The Jays got the FA that counted (Batista) at below market value because he really wanted to come here. Only Aurilia and Worrell refused, Worrell because he wanted closer money, and Aurilia because he had a rock star rider list of terms (Spring Training in AZ, no turf, etc.) I think Toronto has a great rep as far as attractive cities go.

I missed tonight's action - I was down at Christie Pits with Liam watching the Leafs lose 5-2 to London. Ex-Blue Jay report: Rob Butler went 1-3 with 2 walks (one with the bases loaded); Rich Butler was 1-4 (a solo HR in the 5th that tied the game at 2-2.)

A rather well-pitched game. Both starters threw complete games. The Leafs had a lefty named Joe Thomas who struck out 12 and walked just one. Nice smooth delivery, moved a fastball in and out. Not much of a curve ball, and had trouble throwing his change-up for strikes. London's pitcher was a sinker-slider guy named Mike Mietro (or something like that). Had them beating the ball into the ground all night long.

Nice ball game. A few errors, but that's to be expected on the Christie Pits infield. Fun to watch.

Worrell was offered more money by Toronto, actually. I think he refused as he preferred to stay in the NL, for some reason...

I'm glad to hear the optimism Paul. While I never wish any baseball season to be over (I'd be the happiest-and least productive-human alive with 365 days of baseball), I am very curious to see the moves this winter.

They recently went back to each of the potential ownership groups and asked them to sweeten their deals.

My point about this is not to castigate MLB... they are certainly entitled to drive a hard bargain for their asset and it's probsbly in the best interests of baseball to do so.

Rather, my point is that altering these bids, sweetening them, takes time. There are large numbers of corporations, public bodies, governments, and individuals involved in these bids. Coordination is a nightmare, and trying to reopen and renegotiate these deals once struck is a huge pain... these are very delicate bargains. If MLB are asking now for changes, we're looking at a couple of more months before they can even begin trimming the losers.

Only Aurilia and Worrell refused, Worrell because he wanted closer money

Not to pick nits but I think JP said tonight that the Jays actually offered Worrell $500,000 more than he is currently making. I may have heard wrong but I think he said it was Worrell, can anyone confirm or deny?

Thanks Chris H. Note to self, must not edit post more than a dozen times.

I don't know if he said it tonight, but I've heard him say it about 15 other times. Same with Quantrill.

Oh. Well, that makes no sense. Well, it sort of does, considering that Worrell skewered the "proven closer" myth several times last year in interviews. It makes sense in that it's odd and right in character for him.

Oooh Robb Quinlan just got replaced defensively, ending his hitting streak. I bet he'll be a happy camper.

Worrell said that he didn't want to play on turf. I think that was his only obnjection, though I could be wrong.

Also, scratch what I said about Quantrill. Jays were interested but the Yanks offered more money.

The Delgado situation will be enormously interesting this winter. His poor season has cost him millions and millions of dollars (I thought guys in their walk years always... yeah, right.)

I assume Ricciardi will say something to Carlos like "We love you but we can't spend more than Seven million on a cleanup hitter." And if Godfrey or Rogers complain about losing their team's big star, Ricciardi will say "Ilove him, but if my budget is 50 million I can't spend..." Leaving it up to those guys to step up if they really want Delgado back.

Assuming that doesn't happen, where does Delgado go? Carlos is a smart guy and a sophisticated man - he loves Toronto, and I'm sure he'd love New York. Brian Cashman is a very smart guy, too. Right now he has a logjam at 1b/DH with Giambi, Clark, Olerud, Bernie Williams. Assume Clark and Olerud won't be back.

I would think Delgado is their fallback if they somehow miss out on Carlos Beltran (which would move Bernie to DH.)

Assuming Steinbrenner will allow Cashman to sign a guy who refuses to salute the flag during the seventh inning stretch, of course.

Otherwise - I would think he wants to stay in the AL. Delgado is one of those hitters who keeps a book on pitchers (Albert Belle was another) and I doubt he'd want to learn a whole new league... The DH rule also makes him more valuable in this league.

Baltimore? Boston? Anaheim?

Funny, it seems Toronto is more vulnerable with the Expos still in Canada. I thought it was strange they put that new turf in Olympic Stadium with just one split-season to go.

Still, I maintain that it is unlikely that the Toronto franchise will be contracted. And I worry when I hear contraction talk that people will back away from the team as a "fatally-ill franchise" - then the contraction talk becomes self-fulfilling prophesy. People no longer want to put emotional investment in a team they see as perhaps leaving them. So in the end it becomes the talk of a perceived contracation threat that kills the team rather than any real threat of contraction.

I wouldn't be surprised if Baltimore got Delgado.

Even with all their signing last offseason, their payroll is actually LOWER than it was in 2003, and they're about to clear even more money off the books.

Tampa?

People no longer want to put emotional investment in a team they see as perhaps leaving them. So in the end it becomes the talk of a perceived contracation threat that kills the team rather than any real threat of contraction.

Exactly! Craig, stop talking about contraction ;-)

It does look like Father Time is starting to catch up with Raffy Palmeiro, and Peter Angelos does love to haul in those free agents.

Tampa has Tino in his bounce-back year, which I think is a problem for them because 1B is probably the best place to play Aubrey Huff.

Was Tino signed to a one or two yr. deal? Definately a bounce back yr. for him. I reckon the team will have an option for next season that they might be extremely happy with but does Tino repeat 04 in 05? I kind of doubt it and so might the team.

I think they were musing Juan Gone before he got selved for the season and before the deadline. They tried McGriff. They might love to have Delgado.

I think they're a team on the move. I wouldn't rule out Balt. either. Seattle for that matter. Not sure they see Bucky Jacobsen as their first sacker next year even though theres a lot of wallop in his bat. Edgar retiring so Jacobsen is probably DH. Seattle managemant has been making a noises about the market lately. The fans are going to be peeved if they don't re-tool right away.

I was talkin earlier with M fans and they don't want Delgado. They want to pretty much get rid of the old guys and go with young one's.

Bucky has looked really good so far and he's an old rookie at age 28. I'm a M's fan and I feel bad the team just fell off after so many great seasons. The window of opportunity quickly vanished. It was amazing they improved after losing Unit, Griffey, and A-Rod.

Although it may not fit into JPs plans or Ted's wallet, I'm starting to think signing one top shelf, big name or masher in the off season is a good idea for the club. Someone like Sexson or Nomar. Not only would it bring needed run support to the Jays lineup (Sexson especialy, his near 7 foot frame golfing shots in the Dome is an almost scary thought)but it would keep attendance from bottoming out in the off season. One big name can show Joe Neanderthal Bandwagon Off the Street Fan that the Jays are trying to win and give the casual fan interest and hope in the team. I assume the vast majority of them do not know of the almighty five year plan. They just see losing and no BIG names (if Carlos goes) and they dont like that and they wail and gnash their teeth in a vain attempt to understand the situation. The big name can keep interest simmering in the city waiting to boil over when the young guns finally come through.

Who else am i missing?

I'm going to throw out a name that hasn't been discussed. The more I think about it though, the more I think it's not that farfetched.

Adam Dunn.

Dunn isn't a free agent but he is in line for a huge arbitration award that Carl Lidner will not want to pay. The Jays are the perfect team to appreciate Dunn for what he can do (get on base, smack homeruns) while ignoring what he can't do(avoid strikeouts). If the Jays can package together some high level prospects especially on the pitching side, Dunn can be had. Of course, Dunn would take up all the money that will be freed up by Delgado leaving. So a greater monetary commitment from ownership, like has been hinted, would be needed to fill other holes for next year.

Seriously though, is there another player in baseball who would make the ZLC happier than Adam Dunn?

Cristian, I am going to ignore your post, because if I think that there's actually a possibility of getting Adam Dunn and we don't get him I will cry.

And I don't imagine that this will happen, but San Fransisco should sign Delgado.

is there another player in baseball who would make the ZLC happier than Adam Dunn?

Well, there are a pitcher and first baseman, also in the AL Central, who would make me happier.

I think Cinci will find a way to keep Dunn. And if they can't they will trade him for a big return. If the Reds do the unthinkable and non-tender him, how will the Jays compete with the likes of the Dodgers, Yankees, Red Sox, and Cubs who will be falling all over each other to sign him?

Frank Thomas might be a good one or two year target. It's probably a long shot that he wants to come to Toronto but that all depends on what type of offers he gets after his injury. Juan Gonzalez? If he can stay healthy he would help but that's a big if.

If the Jays go with cheaper veterans, maybe they can spend bigger on another starter and a couple of relievers. With another Lilly or Batista type to push Bush down to fifth starter would give them much needed depth. That's a pretty major investment though as starters are relatively expensive unless you hit the bargain bin which is risky in itself. It might be better to reinvest in a bullpen around Chulk, Frasor, and Frederick. Speier looks great at times but injury or no he just periodically loses it seems. Hard to see them spending $1.5 million or more on him next year.

I don't imagine that this will happen, but San Francisco should sign Delgado.

Agreed on both counts. I think they'd consider it, but they're strapped for cash and trying to cut payroll.

At least they lose Robb Nen's $9 million next year, but they have some buyouts to take care of, $7 million owed to Kirk Rueter (a raise of $2 million), two more years of Alfonzo and two more of Ray Durham at a total of $29 million, and raises all over the place (three guys in the pen get raises).

They look to have dodged a bullet with J.T. Snow, whose option kicks in automatically ih he gets 450 PA. He needs 169 more, so a few judicious times sitting versus lefties should do the trick.

You know who loses a lot of payroll next year? The Angels will have something like $60 million to play with. Some needs to go into re-signing Washburn, I suppose, and probably Molina and Eckstein, but if they want to punt Glaus they certainly have lots of room to go after Delgado. Unlike everyone else, the Angels don't have a lot of 1B/DH guys, their big hitters can all play the outfield.

The Angels are losing Sele, Percival, Glaus, and Appier for a total of $37 million in 2004 salaries.

Yeah, I was thinking Anaheim too. Angels owner seems to have a preference for Latin players as well (read this some where)...and can be seen with his offseason acquisitions of Guerrero, Escobar and Jose Guillen...

Chris Woodward's wife Erin was on the fan this morning discussing the Dog days promotion this Sunday.
She's from Toronto, and she seemed pretty cool. I guess she's working on an acting career, and she said if Chris is traded she might not go with him!

Anyone know what she's acted in?

Don't the Angels have some solid young players they'd want to work into the lineup? McPherson and Kotchman?

All I know about Adam Dunn is how his figure plays in the MLB Sportsclix game -- in one game, he dropped FOUR EASY POP FLIES and I wanted to put his figure in the blender.

Jobu, I think we should start a letter-writing campaign to Nomar, telling him all about how great Toronto is, and all the wonderful things that are here. If enough people write to him and convince him that Toronto is the best city in the world, he'll get on the horn to J.P. and start bugging him, asking how much of a pay cut he has to take to play in the best city in the world.

Make sure to point out the new Varsity stadium, too, so he knows that Mia will have somewhere to play soccer that's world class.

Also, maybe we should offer to help him out, because he'd have to take a pay cut to come here. I'd offer to buy him dinner at Burger Shack and invite him over to the house to watch movies on my giant TV and crazy sound system. (I have the wonderful LaserDisc of Apocalypse Now with the warning label on the back about how the dynamic range is so extreme and the low-end is so deep that you have to be careful not to blow out your speakers -- and it's true, I blew one during the Wagner sequence a few years back.)

Heh, maybe I should start a thread called An Open Letter to Nomar Garciaparra.

Angels owner seems to have a preference for Latin players as well (read this some where)...and can be seen with his offseason acquisitions of Guerrero, Escobar and Jose Guillen...

... and Colon... and the mid-season signing of Mondesi... and...

"Erin McCaffery, Woodward's wife, has done a couple of commercials for U.S. companies AOL and Edwards Cheesecake."

That's taken from a Bob Elliot column written 14 months ago. Other than that I have no idea. Im sure she's done more since, and on the FAN this morning she said she's been "very busy" several times.

Also, maybe we should offer to help him out, because he'd have to take a pay cut to come here. I'd offer to buy him dinner at Burger Shack and invite him over to the house to watch movies on my giant TV and crazy sound system.

Oh that so reminds me of the Miami Dolphins 3rd string QB Sage Rosenfels. He will hire himself out to come watch Monday night Football with you and offer commentary and critique on the game while hanging out in your basement with you and your buddies. The funny thing Im not joking.

http://www.floridatoday.com/!NEWSROOM/columnstoryS0616DRILL.htm

Nomar might find the passive Toronto crowds who expect losing and rarely blame him for anything unless they're personally employed by the Toronto Star a welcome change from Boston.

Not to mention we'd actually pronounce his name correctly, and willing to change the team logo to a sketch of his face. NFH, I say get started on this letter, we'll help you fill in the gaps!

PS. I was at silver snail the other day checking out the sports click deals, if i wanted to say play against myself (as lonley as that sounds) would I need to buy two starter sets?

You know who loses a lot of payroll next year? The Angels will have something like $60 million to play with. Some needs to go into re-signing Washburn, I suppose, and probably Molina and Eckstein, but if they want to punt Glaus they certainly have lots of room to go after Delgado. Unlike everyone else, the Angels don't have a lot of 1B/DH guys, their big hitters can all play the outfield.

The Angels are losing Sele, Percival, Glaus, and Appier for a total of $37 million in 2004 salaries.

Yeah, but the Angels are still pretty screwed next year. They have a pair of uber-prospects at the corners knocking on the door, and nowhere to put them because of their commitments to Salmon, Erstad, and Anderson.

OF Vlad
OF Guillen
OF Anderson
DH Salmon
1B Erstad

Those two gimps at 1B and DH are in line for 17MM between the two of them in 2005, while the Angels would probably get better performance from McPherson and Kotchman playing for the major league minimum.

Because of this, they just might let Glaus walk next year. The job sharing arrangement between Quinlan and Figgins at 3B is working out fine this year. Also, I think McPherson is trade bait because of all the depth they have at 1B/DH. Kotchman, both because of his talent and family ties to management, isn't going anywhere.

Jobu, you'd either need two starter sets or one starter and enough booster packs to fill out all the positions of a second team. I assembled a team of players that are not in demand from an eBay seller for 25 cents to a dollar apiece for my second team. The only downside is that you don't have batting order clips that way, but we just write down our lineups on a piece of paper.

Times like this I wish I had a credit card. I also wish one of my loser friends would buy the other starter kit. Make things so much easier.

Wasn't McPherson supposed to be the cornerstone of the RJ deal, and that's why Anaheim didn't want to pull the trigger? Jacko, I figured the exact opposite from you. McPherson was destined to stick around because they need to non-tender Glaus to save money with the big contracts to everyone else (plus, maybe signing a big bat for the corner). Basically all the good third baseman are signed long-term (guys like Rolen, Chavez, Blalock, etc..), while slugging first baseman are a less valuable commodity, and Konerko and Delgado are free agents this year. Because of this, and because of his injury history, they'd be more liekly to trade Kotchman if they'd deal one of them. I didn't know about his family ties to management, though, but now that I think about it I remember reading it somewhere. His dad works as a scout for them, or something. Still, if they let family ties dictate important decisions, that's a mistake.

Jobu and NFH, what are you talking about?
All the talk of starter and booster packs is bringing me back to my youth, and I'm intrigued by the sports theme...

http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,595071827,00.html

Wasn't McPherson supposed to be the cornerstone of the RJ deal, and that's why Anaheim didn't want to pull the trigger? Jacko, I figured the exact opposite from you. McPherson was destined to stick around because they need to non-tender Glaus to save money with the big contracts to everyone else (plus, maybe signing a big bat for the corner). Basically all the good third baseman are signed long-term (guys like Rolen, Chavez, Blalock, etc..), while slugging first baseman are a less valuable commodity, and Konerko and Delgado are free agents this year. Because of this, and because of his injury history, they'd be more liekly to trade Kotchman if they'd deal one of them. I didn't know about his family ties to management, though, but now that I think about it I remember reading it somewhere. His dad works as a scout for them, or something. Still, if they let family ties dictate important decisions, that's a mistake.

Therein lies the problem with nepotism :) COMN.

Kotchman may not have the same raw power as McPherson, but he's a hitting machine and is supposed to be excellent defensively. The Angels made a huge mistake painting themselves into a corner this spring by signing Anderson to that ridiculous deal. If they hadn't, Erstad could move back to CF and and vacate 1B for Kotchman. Throw in his ties to his dad, who's been a scout and manager for over 20 years with the Angels, and the chances of him being dealt are remote. As you mentioned, the one knock on Kotchman is that he's injury prone, and scouts have described his body as being "tight". Maybe he needs to take up yoga or something. In 2004, he's managed to mostly stay healthy, so maybe he's turned the corner?

Not that McPherson is chopped liver or anything, but compared to Kotchman he's a one-dimensional slugger. His defense at 3B is nothing special, and a lot of writers are predicting an eventual move across the diamond or to a corner OF slot. If pitchers find a way to get him out and he can't adjust, he quickly turns in to...Josh Phelps. In 2004, McPherson's aggregate SLG is .660, which is awesome. However, his aggregate BB/K ratio is a terrible 44/138. McPherson could hit 500 HR, or he could flame out completely.

And re-read my last post. I suggested that McPherson is not going to come up and play 3B, but because of budget requirements they might stick with Chone Figgins and Robb Quinlan. Other alternatives are to trade Kennedy or Eckstain to make room for Figgins, and then bring up McPherson or bring back Glaus to play 3B.

Paul, Wiz Kids made a Clix game, like their HeroClix etc games, based on baseball. There's a board that's a ballpark, dice, and you collect little figurines of the players, whose stats are on little dials on the base of the figure. You buy a starter pack to get the dice, the board and a player for every position, then you buy blind boosters -- sealed boxes that have three random players in them. Or you do like me and buy from internet dealers who buy thousands of boosters, open them all and sell the rare Ichiro with the red base (who is no better in the game than the regular Ichiro) for $30 and the rest of the regular players for 25 cents to a dollar each based on how common they are. Roy Halladay and Eric Hinske are expensive; Vernon Wells and Orlando Hudson are cheap.

Maybe I'm tired today. Well, I know I am, but maybe that's why I fail to see exactly what you're saying.

And re-read my last post. I suggested that McPherson is not going to come up and play 3B, but because of budget requirements they might stick with Chone Figgins and Robb Quinlan. Other alternatives are to trade Kennedy or Eckstain to make room for Figgins, and then bring up McPherson or bring back Glaus to play 3B.

Budgetary concerns aren't an issue with McPherson. If Anaheim is smart enough to realise that Figgy and Quinlan are likely playing over their heads/best suited to a reserve role, I'm still not sure what the problem that you keep alluding to with calling up McPherson is. Either you call him up to play 3B, call him up and give him odd starts at 1B/3B/DH or you trade him. I don't see any other course of action for 2005.

Unless you are saying that Anaheim is going to want to keep Figgins in a starter's role, and that is creating another logjam not involving too many outfielders.

Sounds interesting NFH. Wiz Kids is a part of WOTC, right?

Maybe I'll have to check that out.
Thanks.

Budgetary concerns aren't an issue with McPherson. If Anaheim is smart enough to realise that Figgy and Quinlan are likely playing over their heads/best suited to a reserve role, I'm still not sure what the problem that you keep alluding to with calling up McPherson is. Either you call him up to play 3B, call him up and give him odd starts at 1B/3B/DH or you trade him. I don't see any other course of action for 2005.

Now it's my turn to show how bad a writer I am.

What I meant to say was this:

1. I don't think McPherson is going to play 3B for the Angels because his defense at 3B isn't good enough. Because of his deteriorating strikezone judgement, if he is called up now or early next year he will probably struggle. So it won't be all that surprising for the Angels to leave him in AAA to start 2005.

2. If money is no object, the Angels will bring back Glaus. In addition, they may trade Kennedy or Eckstein to make room for a fulltime role for Figgins. Or they can leave him in his "supersub" role.

3. If money is a problem (and having 30 million going to Anderson, Salmon, and Erstad in 2005 _is_ a problem) they'll go with Figgins/Quinlan at 3B.

Since the Angels are stacked at OF/1B/DH, I think one of McPherson or Kotchman will be traded. And for reasons that I stated earlier, I think it's more likely that McPherson will be moved than Kotchman.

With the exception of our opinion on the readiness of McPherson, it looks like we're violently agreeing with each other (but just stating things in slightly different ways).

jc

I don't know if they're part of WOTC, Paul, but the game is produced in association with Topps.

If enough Toronto people get teams together I'd be happy to organize a league or an afternoon tournament or something. Wiz Kids supplies prizes (usually the more "rare" figures) for organized gaming groups.

NFH, is there not need for sanctioning for such events? I know my store runs Heroclix tournaments and signing up and sanctioning tournaments with Wizkids is pretty easy compared to say, WotC, but it's still nontrivial. At least, for Heroclix, YMMV.

From the stuff I've read on the website, all you need to do is send them game logs. It's more complex if you're a store, but if you're just a bunch of people it's pretty easy.

I suppose it's because if I'm running a league with half a dozen people they're going to send us three figures a month, where a big tournament would be getting a lot more in the way of prize support.

Sounds about right Jacko. I knew he didn't have a great glove, but I didn't know it was considered bad enough to prevent him from playing 3B in the majors. And yes, as much as I like McPherson, that K/BB rate is worrisome. But he gets bonus points because of his name.

Anyone know the significance of his surname? Figures into a notable event in Blue Jays history.

Sounds about right Jacko. I knew he didn't have a great glove, but I didn't know it was considered bad enough to prevent him from playing 3B in the majors

I don't know if it's Hinkse-circa-2002-bad, but I know it isn't one of his strengths. Then again, if a "big man" like Hinske can come that far in two years with good coaching, I guess there's no good reason why McPherson can't either.

He's also built like a linebacker. Even if he starts his career at 3B, a Thome style switch to 1B in his late 20's is probably in the cards.

Anyone know the significance of his surname? Figures into a notable event in Blue Jays history

This is more obscure than you thought.

The only McPherson I could find on baseball-reference.com played in 1904. A google search yielded nothing of interest. I even tried the alternate spelling of "MacPherson" and that didn't turn up much either.

I was searching for independent verification but I could not find it on the net. However, this fact is stuck in my head, so I'm convinced it is true. The marines who flew the Canadian flag upside down in Game 2 of the 1992 World Series were based in Fort McPherson.

There you go. I guess it is somewhat obscure.

Hopefully ALL playas of color will affirm their culture and wear their hats on the side with bigger, baggier pants. Those caucasian players should be discouraged from wearing their hats on the side or to wear baggy pants, for it is not part of their culture. Playas of color need to affirm their culture, what with straight white male Christian genocide of the culture of people of color for the last 400 years through colonialism, slavery, etc. They couldn't wipe out Islam, they couldn't wipe out African-American Sisters and Brothers (though they raped enough Sisters), so now they want to wipe out yet another affirmation of culture.