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After today's bullpen implosion there were many frustrated Bauxites in the game thread.

Mike in CT asked 'How many more games would the Jays have won this year if they had even an average major league bullpen?'

First, here's a look at the bullpen to see how they stack up against the rest of MLB, in various statistics:

Save Percentage

Rank Team Saves Save Opp sv%
1 Los Angeles Dodgers 38 45 84.4%
2 New York Yankees 43 53 81.1%
3 Minnesota Twins 38 47 80.9%
4 Texas Rangers 36 45 80.0%
5 Tampa Bay Devil Rays 27 34 79.4%
6 St. Louis Cardinals 38 49 77.6%
7 Chicago White Sox 25 34 73.5%
8 Atlanta Braves 31 43 72.1%
9 Anaheim Angels 36 50 72.0%
10 Milwaukee Brewers 35 50 70.0%
11 Florida Marlins 37 53 69.8%
12 Montreal Expos 25 36 69.4%
13 Boston Red Sox 21 31 67.7%
14 Chicago Cubs 30 45 66.7%
15 Toronto Blue Jays 24 36 66.7%
16 Baltimore Orioles 21 32 65.6%
17 San Diego Padres 34 52 65.4%
18 Pittsburgh Pirates 34 52 65.4%
19 Philadelphia Phillies 30 46 65.2%
20 New York Mets 25 40 62.5%
21 Houston Astros 29 48 60.4%
22 San Francisco Giants 32 53 60.4%
23 Cincinnati Reds 37 62 59.7%
24 Colorado Rockies 29 49 59.2%
25 Detroit Tigers 26 45 57.8%
26 Arizona Diamondbacks 20 35 57.1%
27 Kansas City Royals 20 36 55.6%
28 Seattle Mariners 21 39 53.8%
29 Oakland Athletics 23 43 53.5%
30 Cleveland Indians 23 48 47.9%


The Jays rank 15th out of 30 teams. That's about as average as you can get.

Winning percentage

Rank Team W L Win %
1 Texas Rangers 23 10 69.7%
2 Los Angeles Dodgers 21 10 67.7%
3 St. Louis Cardinals 20 10 66.7%
4 Tampa Bay Devil Rays 18 11 62.1%
5 New York Yankees 18 11 62.1%
6 Minnesota Twins 25 16 61.0%
7 Atlanta Braves 18 12 60.0%
8 San Diego Padres 17 13 56.7%
9 Chicago Cubs 18 14 56.3%
10 Anaheim Angels 17 14 54.8%
11 Baltimore Orioles 19 16 54.3%
12 Cincinnati Reds 23 20 53.5%
13 Milwaukee Brewers 15 14 51.7%
14 Pittsburgh Pirates 19 18 51.4%
15 Philadelphia Phillies 20 19 51.3%
16 Chicago White Sox 15 15 50.0%
17 New York Mets 20 21 48.8%
18 Oakland Athletics 18 19 48.6%
19 Boston Red Sox 14 15 48.3%
20 San Francisco Giants 20 22 47.6%
21 Florida Marlins 17 19 47.2%
22 Cleveland Indians 24 27 47.1%
23 Seattle Mariners 19 23 45.2%
24 Kansas City Royals 15 19 44.1%
25 Detroit Tigers 14 19 42.4%
26 Montreal Expos 14 20 41.2%
27 Colorado Rockies 15 23 39.5%
28 Arizona Diamondbacks 12 20 37.5%
29 Toronto Blue Jays 13 24 35.1%
30 Houston Astros 11 21 34.4%


Ouch. 29th out of 30

ERA

Rank Team ERA
1 Los Angeles Dodgers 2.94
2 St. Louis Cardinals 2.99
3 San Diego Padres 3.37
4 Anaheim Angels 3.42
5 Atlanta Braves 3.42
6 Pittsburgh Pirates 3.51
7 Texas Rangers 3.64
8 Minnesota Twins 3.71
9 Tampa Bay Devil Rays 3.71
10 Chicago Cubs 3.73
11 New York Yankees 3.73
12 Boston Red Sox 3.81
13 Philadelphia Phillies 3.83
14 Chicago White Sox 3.84
15 Milwaukee Brewers 3.86
16 New York Mets 4.00
17 Florida Marlins 4.04
18 Montreal Expos 4.15
19 Baltimore Orioles 4.16
20 Kansas City Royals 4.17
21 Oakland Athletics 4.17
22 Houston Astros 4.27
23 Detroit Tigers 4.41
24 Toronto Blue Jays 4.65
25 Seattle Mariners 4.76
26 Arizona Diamondbacks 4.79
27 Cincinnati Reds 5.11
28 San Francisco Giants 5.14
29 Cleveland Indians 5.32
30 Colorado Rockies 5.34


The Jays would have to be almost 0.80 runs better to be 'average'.

Fielding Independent ERA

Rank Team K/9 BB/9 HR/9 FIP
1 Minnesota Twins 8.3 3.5 0.7 3.28
2 Anaheim Angels 9.3 3.6 0.8 3.30
3 Los Angeles Dodgers 8.3 3.5 0.7 3.35
4 St. Louis Cardinals 6.6 3.0 0.8 3.69
5 New York Mets 7.5 3.6 0.8 3.71
6 Atlanta Braves 7.1 2.9 0.9 3.74
7 Boston Red Sox 7.1 3.5 0.8 3.78
8 New York Yankees 6.3 2.9 0.9 3.81
9 Texas Rangers 7.2 3.7 0.8 3.85
10 Baltimore Orioles 8.1 4.8 0.7 3.87
11 San Diego Padres 7.9 3.5 1.0 3.88
12 Pittsburgh Pirates 6.7 3.7 0.8 3.95
13 Milwaukee Brewers 6.3 2.7 1.0 3.99
14 Oakland Athletics 7.4 3.6 1.1 4.14
15 Tampa Bay Devil Rays 6.9 3.7 1.0 4.16
16 Philadelphia Phillies 6.4 3.0 1.1 4.21
17 Chicago White Sox 7.0 3.8 1.0 4.25
18 Houston Astros 9.2 3.5 1.5 4.26
19 Chicago Cubs 8.2 4.4 1.1 4.27
20 Florida Marlins 7.6 4.4 1.0 4.27
21 Montreal Expos 6.7 3.8 1.1 4.30
22 Kansas City Royals 6.5 4.1 1.0 4.32
23 Toronto Blue Jays 6.9 4.3 1.0 4.34
24 Cleveland Indians 7.8 3.7 1.3 4.39
25 Detroit Tigers 6.5 4.0 1.2 4.65
26 Seattle Mariners 6.7 4.2 1.2 4.70
27 Arizona Diamondbacks 7.5 5.2 1.1 4.70
28 Cincinnati Reds 5.9 3.6 1.4 4.93
29 San Francisco Giants 6.1 4.1 1.3 4.93
30 Colorado Rockies 6.4 4.6 1.3 5.02


Here the Jays rank 23rd in baseball (all stats are unadjusted).

So back to the original question: How many games would the Jays be with an average bullpen?

The Jays' bullpen has pitched 338.2 innings this season with an ERA of 4.65. An average bullpen ERA would be 3.93. Doing a little algebra tells me to get to an ERA of 3.93 the Jays' pen would have had to have given up 27 less runs.

I believe that 10 runs = 1 win, so if the Jays had an average bullpen (using unadjusted ERA) the Jays would have 2.7 more wins, and I'll round it up to 3 because it's been a frustrating season.
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_Geoff - Sunday, August 15 2004 @ 09:14 PM EDT (#42135) #
Do you have any stats on how many runs up the Jays were in those 12 blown saves?
_Ryan Lind - Sunday, August 15 2004 @ 09:16 PM EDT (#42136) #
The save% thing is kinda eh because the 'pen has blown games that weren't even save opps. (eg. today)
_Ryan Lind - Sunday, August 15 2004 @ 09:18 PM EDT (#42137) #
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlbhist/stats/aggregate?sort=ERA&season=2003&split=128&group=9&seasonType=2&statType=pitching&type=type1
PS: The Bullpen ERA last year was 4.69

The only difference is they were cheaper.
Pistol - Sunday, August 15 2004 @ 09:19 PM EDT (#42138) #
Well, I'd guess at least 12.....

All the numbers I used are total stats for the season. I didn't go any further into the breakdown of individual games.

To be honest I would have guessed there were more than 12 blown saves (which doesn't necessarily mean that the Jays lost that game).
Pistol - Sunday, August 15 2004 @ 09:22 PM EDT (#42139) #
The save% thing is kinda eh because the 'pen has blown games that weren't even save opps. (eg. today)

Didn't Frasor or Chulk get one today?
_6-4-3 - Sunday, August 15 2004 @ 09:23 PM EDT (#42140) #
It's been a slow day, so I decided to run this with the pythagorean winning percentage, just for kicks. With the current numbers, they Jays' Pythagorean record is 51 - 67 (their real record is 49 - 69). With the improved bullpen numbers from above, I got a Pythagorean record of 54 - 64, an improvement of 3 games over the current Pythagorean record, and 5 games above their current record. With that record, we'd still be tied with Tampa for 4th, and be 4 games back of Baltimore.

The bullpen, bad as it has been, hasn't been the worst problem. The Jays rank 12th in the AL in runs scored, ahead of only the putrid Mariners and Kansas City. In Runs Allowed, they're 9th. Still, I'd rather not have experienced the joys of Kerry Ligtenberg.
_6-4-3 - Sunday, August 15 2004 @ 09:24 PM EDT (#42141) #
Chulk got a loss, not a blown save. I think that's because he lost it in the 7th, in a non-save situation.
_Alfred - Sunday, August 15 2004 @ 09:41 PM EDT (#42142) #
The jays have scored 504 runs and an average offense if about 590. Thus if 10 runs = a win the offense has cost 8 or 9 wins, the bull pen 3, and since they are 10 wins away from average, by this logic the starting pitching has gained a couple.

So it might be

Bullpen -3 wins
Starting Pitching +2 wins
Offense -9 wins

Who knows if this quick analysis is exact, but I bet it is pretty close. It is obvious the offense is the major problem.

The Jays starting line up from 2003 to 2004 was almost exactly the same. It's not like J.P. brought in a bunch of guys that failed, the same guys went from the top to bottom in one year. Nobody could of known. I bet next year the Offense is back in the top 5, if Halladay comes back strong a run at 90 wins isn't out of the question. Have faith.
Mike D - Sunday, August 15 2004 @ 10:28 PM EDT (#42143) #
Interesting work, Pistol...but your 10 runs/1 win formula doesn't seem to work as well in the bullpen context, given that relievers pitch fewer innings, and often higher-leverage innings.

That said, I agree with your basic point. I'd put the difference at a number more like 6-7 wins, though. This is simple, sloppy shorthand, but taking their 13-24 record and making it .500 adds 5.5 wins right there.
robertdudek - Sunday, August 15 2004 @ 10:31 PM EDT (#42144) #
The bullpen's record is affected by the fact that the Jays can't seem to score runs after the 5th inning. The offence has to take a big share of the blame for that 13-24 record.
_Mike in CT - Sunday, August 15 2004 @ 10:36 PM EDT (#42145) #
Thanks for the analysis, Pistol, but I do not believe stats tell the whole story here. The bullpen has failed on too many occasions this season. Who knows how it has affected the psychi of the team. If the team has no confidence in the bullpen, it may cause the offense and starting rotation to press even more. Stats cannot measure that effect.

Interesting analysis, but I believe the bullpen is even worse than the numbers may show. I agree the lack of offense has been huge in the Blue Jays' demise this year, but the bullpen is at least equal to blame.
Joe - Sunday, August 15 2004 @ 10:44 PM EDT (#42146) #
http://me.woot.net
Mike in CT,

The whole point is that the offense has been the biggest problem for the Jays this season. You can't just say "Well, that doesn't agree with my preconceived notions of the problem, so the numbers must be to blame." As a race, we are pretty awful at judging truth through our personal experiences; that's just one more example of the phenomenon.
_Ryan Lind - Sunday, August 15 2004 @ 10:53 PM EDT (#42147) #
The bullpen has failed on too many occasions this season.

Yeah, but so has everyone else's. That's the point. You can't throw away all of the bullpen failures, because every team is going to have at least a couple of them. Know what I mean? To say the bullpen has cost them 3 games probably isn't accurate, but to say that the bullpen cost them 3 more games than the average team sounds about right.
Pistol - Sunday, August 15 2004 @ 11:21 PM EDT (#42148) #
For what it's worth, the Jays' bullpen rank in K, BB, and HR:

K - 17
BB - 25
HR - 13

The walks really stick out from the bullpen. I know Batista and Lilly have had increases in their walk rates as well this year. It'd be interesting to figure out why that's happening.
_IainS - Sunday, August 15 2004 @ 11:26 PM EDT (#42149) #
The reason everyone is reacting to the bullpen is because this team is like someone who is immune suppressed. The average person gets a cold, the immune suppressed person ends up in the ER. With the offense so off kilter, every little thing that goes bad in the bullpen is emphasized. Sure, today went to hell but that happens. What concerns me is all the 1 run losses. If anything like last year's offense had shown up this year, those games would have been won. Also because of the lack of offense the bullpen has been overstressed to perform on a razor's edge all the time and some have broken down, others are breaking down.
_A - Sunday, August 15 2004 @ 11:31 PM EDT (#42150) #
It would be interesting to see how situations where the Blue Jays were only behind one or two runs when the bullpen came in, only to have that deficit climb to three or more runs.

I tend to agree that it's hard on the team's psychee to know that a Big Inning is needed (that's purely a subjective arguement I have no way of proving). So if my ill-supported hypothesis that 3+ runs constitutes a Big Inning and that a required Big Inning is something that works against players' confidence, then it's plausible that the bullpen harms the offense's chance of making a comeback from a 1 or 2 run deficit on days where it surrenders runs that put the team into a 3+ run deficit.

That's probably just chaotic thinking that made its way into text and would probably need dozens of phsychiatrists, sociologists and statisticians to prove/disprove.
_A - Sunday, August 15 2004 @ 11:34 PM EDT (#42151) #
*see how many situations occurred where the Blue Jays
_IainS - Sunday, August 15 2004 @ 11:37 PM EDT (#42152) #
Now a quick and dirty calculation... if the Jays had last year's offense with this year's pitching they would be sitting at 65W 53L in a virtual tie for first in the wildcard.
_R Billie - Monday, August 16 2004 @ 01:04 AM EDT (#42153) #
We didn't really have to wait until next year for Frasor and Chulk to go Aquilino Lopez. During the game they offered some stats about how poorly both guys have been going since the All-Star break.

And of course giving up 8 runs in an inning (due also to poor defence by Delgado and Gomez) is a disaster and I also wish Gibbons had been a lot quicker with the hook for Chulk who completely fell apart after the initial error. But how did this team not seriously threaten on offence once the starter was knocked out (the 4th or 5th inning)?

The hitters took a vacation the rest of the day. They produced zero runs for the last half of the game and that's why the pen has been so heavily taxed.
_DaveInNYC - Monday, August 16 2004 @ 01:11 AM EDT (#42154) #
The fact that David Bush couldn't throw a strike all day, nor could he get ahead in a count didn't help matters either. Him going just one more inning would have been huge. Going 5 leaves too much room for an average to below average bullpen to implode.
_Andrew S - Monday, August 16 2004 @ 08:15 AM EDT (#42155) #
The bullpen on average doesn't pitch in innings that are higher leverage than a starter. A closer or setup guy might, but "the bullpen" includes everyone, and a run scored in the first is just as damaging as a run scored in the ninth when we're averaging over all games.
Mike D - Monday, August 16 2004 @ 10:46 AM EDT (#42156) #
A makes an excellent point (psychology notwithstanding).

There are three ways a better bullpen could have helped:

1) Preserving narrow deficits more often rather than allowing them to balloon, thus giving the offence a chance to come back;

2) Blowing fewer leads; and

3) A better record when inheriting tie scores.

Respectfully, Andrew S, 10 runs can't equal one win for a bullpen -- because the difference between a 13-24 pen and an average pen simply can't be 2.7 wins. Even with this year's Jays offence.

I think that an average pen would add 6-7 wins, and an excellent pen would add double digits. The trouble there, of course, is that you kind of have to luck in to an excellent pen, as Spicol so articulately demonstrated.
robertdudek - Monday, August 16 2004 @ 11:01 AM EDT (#42157) #
... because the difference between a 13-24 pen and an average pen simply can't be 2.7 wins. Even with this year's Jays offence.

Why not?

There's a misconception here. It is true that some bullpen innings occur in higher than average leverage situations. But others are lower than average. I think Tangotigre showed that starters' innings have a Leverage Index (LI) of about 1 overall, so that means that reliever innings over all must also have a LI of about 1.

You'd have to go into the specific details of when and in what sitaution the runs were saved or given up to calculate the true impact of the bullpen's performance. Definitive statements based on the limited data about the number of wins the bullpen has cost the Jays have no meaning.
Thomas - Monday, August 16 2004 @ 11:22 AM EDT (#42158) #
Does anyone have a link to Tango's piece on LI?
Craig B - Monday, August 16 2004 @ 11:55 AM EDT (#42159) #
the difference between a 13-24 pen and an average pen simply can't be 2.7 wins. Even with this year's Jays offence.

No, it certainly can, with this year's Jays offence. Is the Jays' offense had enough to turn a .500 team into a 16-21 team? You bet!
_Dragon - Monday, August 16 2004 @ 12:24 PM EDT (#42160) #
What about inherited runners? Looking just at bullpen ERAs doesn't seem particularly thorough...
_MikeJ - Monday, August 16 2004 @ 01:28 PM EDT (#42161) #
Look at Cleveland's bullpen as a comparable to the Jays' pen. Their relievers have been as bad, if not worse, than the Jays. However, because they have an outstanding offence they are two games from the division lead, in an admittedly weaker division, and the Jays are wallowing in last place.

Toronto's offence has underachieved all year; to blame the team's problems on the bullpen misses the point, in my view.
_Andrew S - Monday, August 16 2004 @ 01:35 PM EDT (#42162) #
No, the bullpen being three wins below average seems plausible, it really isn't that bad.

I think mostly people are just biased because of last year.
Pistol - Monday, August 16 2004 @ 02:00 PM EDT (#42163) #
What about inherited runners? Looking just at bullpen ERAs doesn't seem particularly thorough...

Perhaps that's true for a short period, or for an individual reliever, but the Jays pen has over 300+ innings this year so I think it's applicable (plus I didn't have that data handy).

While not looking specifically at inherited runners, here are some stats from BP (although as of 8/5) that take that into account, sorted by ARP:


Team IP R ARA APR RRA ARP
-----------------------------------------------
LAD 325.0 113 3.42 48.7 3.61 42.1
TEX 336.7 152 3.48 48.3 3.71 39.7
SDP 329.3 139 3.92 31.1 3.69 39.6
STL 288.3 110 3.76 32.5 3.86 29.3
PIT 315.3 136 3.79 34.4 3.94 29.1
ANA 331.7 138 3.90 32.1 4.00 28.5
TAM 355.0 158 3.96 32.2 4.10 26.6
ATL 306.3 131 3.86 31.1 4.06 24.4
NYY 342.0 156 3.95 31.3 4.15 23.6
PHI 354.7 163 4.27 19.7 4.18 23.4
CHW 267.7 118 3.90 25.9 4.13 19.0
MIN 322.7 141 3.84 33.3 4.26 18.4
HOU 342.0 170 4.40 14.3 4.32 17.3
OAK 281.3 143 4.45 10.0 4.40 11.5
CHC 295.0 134 4.41 11.9 4.42 11.4
----------------- median ---------------------
KCR 339.0 175 4.50 10.3 4.55 8.3
BOS 285.7 139 4.13 20.3 4.65 3.9
FLA 315.7 154 4.72 1.8 4.68 3.4
MIL 351.3 170 4.50 10.7 4.73 1.7
COL 336.7 209 5.01 -9.0 4.85 -3.1
NYM 345.3 175 4.79 -0.6 4.90 -4.8
TOR 321.3 174 4.72 1.9 4.93 -5.5
BAL 368.3 195 4.79 -0.7 4.92 -6.0
MON 341.3 174 4.74 1.3 4.97 -7.6
ARI 354.7 211 4.80 -1.2 5.02 -9.9
DET 330.0 180 5.05 -10.0 5.19 -15.3
SEA 328.0 191 5.19 -15.3 5.26 -17.9
SFG 326.0 202 5.94 -42.3 5.97 -43.5
CIN 346.3 218 6.03 -48.4 6.22 -55.7
CLE 372.3 246 5.98 -50.1 6.12 -55.9
-----------------------------------------------
ML 9855.0 4915 4.49 305.5 4.61 176.0


ARP -- Adjusted Runs Prevented.
The number of runs that the reliever prevented over an average pitcher, given the bases/outs situation when he entered and left each game, adjusted for league and park.
_Mike in CT - Monday, August 16 2004 @ 04:47 PM EDT (#42164) #
Yes, the offense is largely to blame and so is the bullpen and many times the starting staff as well. It's been a complete team effort this season. The simple fact is, right now, the Jays are a very bad team and a lot of things will have to be changed (either the players have to be changed or their careers have to be turned around) to get this team headed in the right direction. J.P. has his hands full at this point. I wish him luck.
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