Whenever things are going badly for the Blue Jays this season -- or indeed, for the rest of time immemorial -- you can always comfort yourself by saying, "Well, at least Toronto has never lost a game 22-0 at home." Two interesting young pitchers hook up tonight at Skydome. The home team sends out Dave Bush, who's been very solid in his rookie campaign for the Jays, though he needs to build up more stamina to get himself consistently past the 6th inning. For the visiting Mariners, one-time phenom Gil Meche continues his comeback from injuries and setbacks, throwing much better since his return from the minors. This one should be close and low-scoring through the middle innings, but after that, it could be anyone's ballgame. Ichiro Suzuki has more base hits this season than Carlos Delgado, Frank Catalanotto and Chris Woodward combined.
Well, at least Toronto has never lost a game 22-0 at home.
No, but they have lost 22-2. I'll never forget that Friday night debacle at the Dome in August 1992 when Milwaukee beat the Jays like a drum. They showed that game in the "O Canada" highlight tape with Don Chevrier saying "This is really painful, folks!". Of course, he began the game saying this should be a pitcher's duel with Jimmy Key on the mound. Yikes! It's safe to say they were able to bounce back because we all know what happened two months later.
It was heart warming to see the Yankees get their butts handed to them like that last night. Looks good on 'em. I just hope this doesn't mean they'll win the World Series, like the Jays in '92.
But really, last night's Yankees loss was beautiful, especially with Mussina whining and complaining about Sunday's game starting too late because of Tom Cheek's tribute. I'm sure Cito Gaston must've liked Sunday's game because Mussina lost. I'm sure Cito's still seething about Mussina after the BS of the '93 All-Star game in Baltimore when Mussina decided to warm up by himself, despite the fact he was told he wasn't coming in unless the game went into extra innings. I don't remember the final score but it wasn't a close game.
From what I read not that long ago, Cito got a call from Mussina two weeks after the incident, looking to apologize to Cito. Cito basically told him it was too late to apologize and he wouldn't accept it because of the death threats he received. Mussina may be a great pitcher but his comments after Sunday's game has proved once again what a jerk he really is.
After Mussina's whining and the Yankees whining in general about the O-Drum, I couldn't be happier seeing that final score. Cleveland 22 New York Yankees COB! I hope they choke in the play-offs once again.
No, but they have lost 22-2. I'll never forget that Friday night debacle at the Dome in August 1992 when Milwaukee beat the Jays like a drum. They showed that game in the "O Canada" highlight tape with Don Chevrier saying "This is really painful, folks!". Of course, he began the game saying this should be a pitcher's duel with Jimmy Key on the mound. Yikes! It's safe to say they were able to bounce back because we all know what happened two months later.
It was heart warming to see the Yankees get their butts handed to them like that last night. Looks good on 'em. I just hope this doesn't mean they'll win the World Series, like the Jays in '92.
But really, last night's Yankees loss was beautiful, especially with Mussina whining and complaining about Sunday's game starting too late because of Tom Cheek's tribute. I'm sure Cito Gaston must've liked Sunday's game because Mussina lost. I'm sure Cito's still seething about Mussina after the BS of the '93 All-Star game in Baltimore when Mussina decided to warm up by himself, despite the fact he was told he wasn't coming in unless the game went into extra innings. I don't remember the final score but it wasn't a close game.
From what I read not that long ago, Cito got a call from Mussina two weeks after the incident, looking to apologize to Cito. Cito basically told him it was too late to apologize and he wouldn't accept it because of the death threats he received. Mussina may be a great pitcher but his comments after Sunday's game has proved once again what a jerk he really is.
After Mussina's whining and the Yankees whining in general about the O-Drum, I couldn't be happier seeing that final score. Cleveland 22 New York Yankees COB! I hope they choke in the play-offs once again.
http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/B08280TOR1992.htm
COMN for the boxscore for that 22-2 game. It was August 28, almost exactly 12 years ago; the Jays gave up 31 hits.
My recollection is that, despite the drubbing, there was a lot of optimism in Toronto. David Cone made his debut with the Blue Jays the next day.
COMN for the boxscore for that 22-2 game. It was August 28, almost exactly 12 years ago; the Jays gave up 31 hits.
My recollection is that, despite the drubbing, there was a lot of optimism in Toronto. David Cone made his debut with the Blue Jays the next day.
Lineup:
F. Menechino dh
O. Hudson 2b
V. Wells cf
C. Delgado 1b
A. Rios rf
E. Hinske 3b
G. Zaun c
G. Gross lf
C. Gomez ss
F. Menechino dh
O. Hudson 2b
V. Wells cf
C. Delgado 1b
A. Rios rf
E. Hinske 3b
G. Zaun c
G. Gross lf
C. Gomez ss
I remember that 22-2 game well. I was sitting in the living room at home scoring the game while listening to the radio. I think the Brewers were approaching a record for AL hits in a game or something and I have to admit to kind of hoping they would break it by the end of the game.
David Bush is so impressive for a pitcher his age. He locates his pitches extremely well and he often times gets crafty veterans guessing wrong.
Also, I thought Bush' "best pitch" was his slider? I've rarely seen him go to it, instead he mostly uses his 2 curveballs, and as of late he's really been going to his slow curve.
The 68 mph slow curve to Boone was LOVELY.
Also, I thought Bush' "best pitch" was his slider? I've rarely seen him go to it, instead he mostly uses his 2 curveballs, and as of late he's really been going to his slow curve.
The 68 mph slow curve to Boone was LOVELY.
Until this year, that was the most embarrassing thing that I ever witnessed happening to the Jays. This year has had so many incidents like that that it's impossible to remember them all.
I now have an image of the Yankees scoreboard in the 9th as my desktop pattern; I think I'll keep it there for a long time.
I now have an image of the Yankees scoreboard in the 9th as my desktop pattern; I think I'll keep it there for a long time.
Is that image courtesy of espn, Andrew? Mine is;)
One of my favorite plays, the hit and run, executed to perfection right there by Alex Rios.
Is this kid something or what?
Is this kid something or what?
Bases juiced for the Angels, 1 out, Erstad at the plate. Come on double play!
I think he is going to be a star (hopefully without jinxing him!).
Of course it led to the usually painful situation this season of a man on third with less than 2 outs. Not surprisingly Hinske and Zaun failed to bring in the run. Lets hope for a 2 out hit.
Sorry Tyler, and sorry Erstad haters (or should I say Garrett Anderson haters? It seems most people who think GA is overrated also believe Erstad falls into the same category)
Anyway, Erstad delivers a single. Appears to be a slugfest getting started in Fenway.
Anyway, Erstad delivers a single. Appears to be a slugfest getting started in Fenway.
Garret Anderson is overrated? I still thought he was one of the most underrated players in the game.
And way to go Erstad. Anyone but the Sox.
And way to go Erstad. Anyone but the Sox.
Anyone keeping track of how many times the Jays have had someone on third with no one out and failed to score?
My depression deepens...sigh.
My depression deepens...sigh.
Wow, there's a break; Ichiro didn't get a hit. Phew!
Damn. Vladdy strikes out and grounds out.
Is anyone else sick of that story that Cerutti just told about Ichiro?
It seems like it's the obligation of every announcer to tell that story every game against Seattle. Wow. Ichiro hit a homerun, hurrah.
Is anyone else sick of that story that Cerutti just told about Ichiro?
It seems like it's the obligation of every announcer to tell that story every game against Seattle. Wow. Ichiro hit a homerun, hurrah.
errr, I meant to say that Vladdy grounded out and Garret Anderson grounded out. Vladdy's pretty amazing, but he didn't do both.
Hmm...this is my first time using MLB Gameday instead of Sportsline...I actually like the MLB one better. Much better.
Sigh. How often do we see this next to V-Dub's name?
"Pitch 1 - In play"
"Pitch 1 - In play"
Okay, when is it finally time to sit Vernon for a game or two? I love the guy, but he's been nothing short of awful in the last few weeks. He's now 0 for his last 30 against right handers and I'm pretty sure he's 0 for his last 23 or something like that in general.
Sit him Gibby.
Sit him Gibby.
mlb.com is far and away the best league site of those that I check. I can't even begin to tell you how frustrating the NHL site is, although I do love those free radio feeds.
I see nothing wrong with giving Wells a few days off.
He didn't play August 24-26. I don't think sitting him would do much good. Meh, he has walked 3 times.
I can't even begin to tell you how frustrating the NHL site is, although I do love those free radio feeds
Oh, I know. Detroit fan here in the Greater Toronto Area, so I can't follow them on TV. The NHL's bland text update is terrible, but those radio feeds come in handy when the Wings are playing.
And please, nobody tell me that the Red Wings are the Yankees of hockey.
I already hear too much about that from the Leaf fans here.
Oh, I know. Detroit fan here in the Greater Toronto Area, so I can't follow them on TV. The NHL's bland text update is terrible, but those radio feeds come in handy when the Wings are playing.
And please, nobody tell me that the Red Wings are the Yankees of hockey.
I already hear too much about that from the Leaf fans here.
The Red Wings aren't the Yankees of Hockey. The Avs are.
And the NHL.com site is pretty bad, but that shift chart thing is pretty cool. The content is good, but the layout is just old-looking and bland. It needs a makeover. I find Baseballamerica.com to be the same way, actually. Great content, but it's difficult to navigate. I can rarely find what I'm looking for.
And the NHL.com site is pretty bad, but that shift chart thing is pretty cool. The content is good, but the layout is just old-looking and bland. It needs a makeover. I find Baseballamerica.com to be the same way, actually. Great content, but it's difficult to navigate. I can rarely find what I'm looking for.
I've been busy playing NHL 2k5 so I've been out of the Jays loop the past 2 days.
Did JP say anything interesting in the BP interview?
Did JP say anything interesting in the BP interview?
The gamestory for tonight sure looks like most of Bush's starts this year. Great effort from Bush - not so much from the offense. Lots of men left on and an inability to get runners home from 3rd with less than 2 outs. Great effort by Bush though.
The Jays just aren't hitting their pitches today. Meche is already up to 83 pitches through 4 and has walked 3 against 1 strikeout. Bush has only thrown 57 pitches with 1 walk and 3 strikeouts and yet he's in a 0-0 tie.
Bush continues his roll striking out Cabrera and throws two straight strikes to Olivo on the outside corner then makes a great pitch inside to pop him up.
Bush continues his roll striking out Cabrera and throws two straight strikes to Olivo on the outside corner then makes a great pitch inside to pop him up.
Youneverknow. Journeyman Wilson Delgado, with three doubles and no homers in his last 200at-bats -- spanning two and a half seasons -- has a double and a homer for the Mets tonight against Florida.
Youneverknow.
Youneverknow.
If David Bush gets the L tonight, that would just be flat out wrong.
Posting as Joe Morgan:
This Dave Bush kid looks pretty good, but obviously he hasn't learned how to win yet.
This Dave Bush kid looks pretty good, but obviously he hasn't learned how to win yet.
What a bad AB by Vern. 2-1 pitch at his eyes and he pops out in foul ground to Ichiro. Where's Barnett in all of this?
Bush made one bad pitch that inning and it ended up in the second deck to the opposite field. Let's hope David doesn't become a modern Sid Fernandez with great ratios but poor run support.
Delgado reaches base for the third time on a single smoked up the middle. That's a pretty swing from Delgado who is looking much less pull conscious lately.
Delgado reaches base for the third time on a single smoked up the middle. That's a pretty swing from Delgado who is looking much less pull conscious lately.
The rooks have each other's back. Rios gets some of the deficit back with yet another RBI triple.
I'm starting to notice a little more power to the opposite field as was advertised before he was called up from Alex. Good stuff.
I'm starting to notice a little more power to the opposite field as was advertised before he was called up from Alex. Good stuff.
Sac fly Hinske off the lefty and a tie game 2-2.
Zaun smokes a ball off the top of the left field wall and it bounces right to Ibanez who makes a very close play at second but Zaun slides in just ahead of the tag. Nice hustle or he would have been out.
Zaun smokes a ball off the top of the left field wall and it bounces right to Ibanez who makes a very close play at second but Zaun slides in just ahead of the tag. Nice hustle or he would have been out.
Gross shows a lot of patience and waits out Villone's iffy command for the full count walk. 2 on and 2 out for Gomez. Watches the count to 2-0 but then fouls off two pitches before popping one up.
Bush gets a strikeout and a groundout but he's losing his control a bit. His pitches are up and his attempts to go outside are drifting up or over the middle of the plate.
Bush is definately losing his command as he goes 1-2 to Olivo and then wastes a lot of pitches to run the count full. Olivo then spoils a great 3-2 curve before he's almost beaned by errant fastball.
Arg...a stupid pitch out call when Bush had Lopez down 0-2. Why are you pitching out with Olivo running? Does that make any sense? Why give the batter any free balls?
This is the only time I will ever support Bush being around for four more years.
This kid looks good.
This kid looks good.
Mighty Mouse! The lefty slayer didn't even think that was fair off the bat. 3-2 Jays.
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/boxscore?gid=240901120
Sorry to use a tired joke, but as well as Bush did, Kerry did better. COMN
Sorry to use a tired joke, but as well as Bush did, Kerry did better. COMN
I like Rios a lot but he sure does hit a lot of firm groundballs with runners on base.
Great shot by Mighty Mouse there. And a second run scored on a Delgado blooper. It looked like a bad read by Ibanez, as the ball seemed catchable. Probably cost them a run too, as the fly wasn't verry deep, and thus probably wouldn't have scored Wells.
I just got the book chasing steinbrenner pursuing the pennnant in boston and toronto. Has anybody read it?
I'd prefer a pitch out (or any waste pitch) than an 0-2 homer.
why is frasor in the 8th? i guess when we got no pen the closer has got to go 2 innings.
Jason has changed up his 95% fastball routine and is throwing a lot of sliders today. I like it.
are you sure speier is the closer? why whould they take it any from frasor ?He is just a roookie and doing a good job as a closer
Don't know about you guys but I don't want to see more than a run scored here in the ninth by the Jays. I'd like to see what Speier can do with a save opp.
i want to see frasor. The kid can be our future closer
Gibson said last week that he was going to take some pressure of Frasor and he would not necessarily get all the save opps. Since thewn Frasor has picked up a save and Speier hasn't been given his shot.
I just feel that Frasor is the closer just let him close.I have no confidence in spier closing games setting up i like that spot for him
Wow, forget Speier...
Frasor stays in for the 9th.
Frasor stays in for the 9th.
I feel like I'm watching a Seattle Seahawks football game. Alex Rios drops a catchable ball.
Frasor gets ahead then decides to fool around and waste a lot of pitches and then gives up a hard liner to right-centre. Rios gets there on the run but the ball hits his glove and then the turf and Jacobsen lumbers in with a double.
Speier is coming in with the tying run coming to the plate and nobody out.
Speier is coming in with the tying run coming to the plate and nobody out.
It wasn't that catchable. Bucky hit it pretty hard. Frasor command looked a little off to me. I don't mind bringing in Speier since I fear Frasor may become unraveled. Speier hasn't really had a chance to close this year, he blew one Save. Opp a long time ago and that was it.
Ryan you are right about speier.Just frasor could become our future closer lets see what the kids got
Rory, I think the Jays already have seen enough of Frasor to make a judgement, and I'm not saying that in a bad way... I'm saying it in a very good way actually.
JP realizes that Frasor isn't used to playing through this extra month, he's getting fatigued. Instead of having it hurt the team when it matters most, why not give the ball, for now, to a veteran thats used to the long grind of the majors.
Speier should be the closer for the rest of the year.
JP realizes that Frasor isn't used to playing through this extra month, he's getting fatigued. Instead of having it hurt the team when it matters most, why not give the ball, for now, to a veteran thats used to the long grind of the majors.
Speier should be the closer for the rest of the year.
what is delgado dong!!!!! speier looked very shape nice pitching by bush
Speier gets a hard groundout and a strikeout. Jose Lopez is up and takes a strike. Have to be a little careful with guy as he has power.
A very slow grounder to Delgado who has all kinds of trouble with and stumbles and crawls and tags first base with his bare hand just ahead of Lopez getting there. Speier nails it down and the Jays win 4-2.
A very slow grounder to Delgado who has all kinds of trouble with and stumbles and crawls and tags first base with his bare hand just ahead of Lopez getting there. Speier nails it down and the Jays win 4-2.
David Cone made his debut with the Blue Jays the next day.
It was his first day in a Jays uniform, he didn't actually play in the game. You could see him sitting in the dugout thinking "this is a first place team? American League, very strange..."
Nice work by Jay Spy.
It was his first day in a Jays uniform, he didn't actually play in the game. You could see him sitting in the dugout thinking "this is a first place team? American League, very strange..."
Nice work by Jay Spy.
Damm Frankie is one mean looking SOB!
At least I saw him smile for 1.5 secs in the post game interview. That made it worth it.
At least I saw him smile for 1.5 secs in the post game interview. That made it worth it.
Just read in SportsWeekly (formerly Baseball Weekly) that Texas is going to trade Soriano over the winter because they are afraid of what he'll get in arbitration after making $5M this season. Now, just imagining that this isn't Bob Nightengale pulling a Gammons, can the Jays come up with the pieces necessary to complete the deal, and pay Alf $8-10M to replace Delgado's offense, even if it means either moving him to 1st, or Hudson to short?
I know i asked already but did any read chasing steinbrenner pursuing the pennnant in boston and toronto?
Mothesond wow soriano would be nice. But he is not a moneyball player and jp would not have it.
Many of us have read it. It's the best book written about the Jays in years.
Thank you Matt i just got it. When is wells going to get out of this slump.
How is Soriano not a Moneyball player? More precisely, what is a Moneyball player? It seems to me that a guy that provides premium offense at a defensive position (a la Jackie Robinson, to refute a Richard Griffin argument from last year) would be coveted by most GM's. And even a move to 1st wouldn't negate his offensive contributions, IMO
The due date on halladay is sept21 against the yanks.Ijust hope he does not have a set back
But he is not a moneyball player and jp would not have it.
There is no such thing as a moneyball player.
Its a business strategy, not a baseball strategy.
Ricciardi would love to have Soriano. If he could afford him.
There is no such thing as a moneyball player.
Its a business strategy, not a baseball strategy.
Ricciardi would love to have Soriano. If he could afford him.
Adams, Crozier, and Quiroz will be called up.
Ryan Glenn is most likely going to get called up to start for Towers because he has a nagging injury
Lightenburg will have an MRI, he's had a nagging hip injury for a while now.
Ryan Glenn is most likely going to get called up to start for Towers because he has a nagging injury
Lightenburg will have an MRI, he's had a nagging hip injury for a while now.
Is it just me, or did Ricciardi just write Delgado out of next season's roster?
Arggh,, I can't get the online feed to work.
What's going on?
What's going on?
Soriano, 2004: 327/479/806
Hudson, 2004: 349/441/790
Soriano has a 29/103 BB/K ratio this year.
There is absolutely no way the Jays will go after Soriano, especially considering salary considerations. Case closed.
Hudson, 2004: 349/441/790
Soriano has a 29/103 BB/K ratio this year.
There is absolutely no way the Jays will go after Soriano, especially considering salary considerations. Case closed.
soriano does not walk enuff and does not take a lot a pitchers each at bat. And his d is terrible . yes he has power and speed but i just do not think he is want jp is going to go after.I think soriano would be great but i dont think it will happening.
Lightenburg will have an MRI, he's had a nagging hip injury for a while now.
For a while? He went on the DL with that hip injury almost three months ago.
For a while? He went on the DL with that hip injury almost three months ago.
I know i asked already but did any read chasing steinbrenner pursuing the pennnant in boston and toronto?
I just finished it tonight. It's pretty good, not as good as say... Moneyball, but it's an interesting book.
I just finished it tonight. It's pretty good, not as good as say... Moneyball, but it's an interesting book.
Is it just me, or did Ricciardi just write Delgado out of next season's roster?
That's what it sounds like. JP said if they paid Delgado 10 mil it would blow the Jays budget. So I guess you can rule out JP offering Delgado 10 mil a year.
That's what it sounds like. JP said if they paid Delgado 10 mil it would blow the Jays budget. So I guess you can rule out JP offering Delgado 10 mil a year.
Lightenburg will have an MRI, he's had a nagging hip injury for a while now.
For a while? He went on the DL with that hip injury almost three months ago.
Well it looks like the DL trip didn't solve the problem because it's still bothering him.
For a while? He went on the DL with that hip injury almost three months ago.
Well it looks like the DL trip didn't solve the problem because it's still bothering him.
why not give delgado 10 mill? How is it going to blow the budget? what is going to be the payroll then
soriano does not walk enuff and does not take a lot a pitchers each at bat. And his d is terrible.
Vernon Wells does not walk enough either. If you can play a key defensive position and rack up slugging percentages above .500, you live without a few walks. Andre Dawson and Vlad Guerrero, same deal.
Soriano's defense is not terrible. He makes a lot of errors, but his range factors are good, his zone ratings are middle of the pack. He's not the O-Dog, but he's not chopped liver.
It's just that he's making 7.4 million this year and he's arbitration eligible. You know what middle infielders who hit like that get from arbitration?
More than the Blue Jays can afford.
Vernon Wells does not walk enough either. If you can play a key defensive position and rack up slugging percentages above .500, you live without a few walks. Andre Dawson and Vlad Guerrero, same deal.
Soriano's defense is not terrible. He makes a lot of errors, but his range factors are good, his zone ratings are middle of the pack. He's not the O-Dog, but he's not chopped liver.
It's just that he's making 7.4 million this year and he's arbitration eligible. You know what middle infielders who hit like that get from arbitration?
More than the Blue Jays can afford.
Did JP really say that 10M for Carlos would "blow the budget?"
That's disappointing.
That's disappointing.
But JP did not draft wells.Soriano is a great ball player but he is not vlad.Soriano only battered 300 once in his carrer.
But JP did not draft wells.
But he liked him enough to sign him up for five years.
Its just that the entire value of the Wells contract will be less than Soriano will make over the next two years. He's going to get 10 million next year from someone.
If Ricciardi can't give Delgado that kind of money, he can't give it to Soriano either.
But if he had the cash, he'd happily give it to both of them.
But he liked him enough to sign him up for five years.
Its just that the entire value of the Wells contract will be less than Soriano will make over the next two years. He's going to get 10 million next year from someone.
If Ricciardi can't give Delgado that kind of money, he can't give it to Soriano either.
But if he had the cash, he'd happily give it to both of them.
What JP is saying I think is that they could offer Delgado $10 million if they intend to bring back the same team. Maybe JP feels he can make that money stretch further by filling some harder to staff positions where they don't have depth in the minors.
why not give delgado 10 mill? How is it going to blow the budget? what is going to be the payroll then
Did JP really say that 10M for Carlos would "blow the budget?"
That's disappointing.
I'm not BS'ing. I don't remember his answer word for word but he clearly mentioned Delgado at 10 mil would "blow the budget"
He mentioned a 50 mil budget and said you have to take into consideration other players will be getting raises next year. He also mentioned the Jays are not one player away but a few players away.
I wonder if Delgado would even sign for less than 10 mil a season.
Did JP really say that 10M for Carlos would "blow the budget?"
That's disappointing.
I'm not BS'ing. I don't remember his answer word for word but he clearly mentioned Delgado at 10 mil would "blow the budget"
He mentioned a 50 mil budget and said you have to take into consideration other players will be getting raises next year. He also mentioned the Jays are not one player away but a few players away.
I wonder if Delgado would even sign for less than 10 mil a season.
2005 dollars
Batista 4.75
Halladay 10.5
Hinske 3.0
Lightenberg 2.5
Lilly 3.1
Wells 2.9
That's 27MM on 6 players, and ~23MM left for the other 34. Why does it seem suprising that 10MM blows that up? If Delgado or Soriano made 10MM that leaves 13MM for 33 players. Good luck putting together a roster on that kind of $$.
Batista 4.75
Halladay 10.5
Hinske 3.0
Lightenberg 2.5
Lilly 3.1
Wells 2.9
That's 27MM on 6 players, and ~23MM left for the other 34. Why does it seem suprising that 10MM blows that up? If Delgado or Soriano made 10MM that leaves 13MM for 33 players. Good luck putting together a roster on that kind of $$.
i meant to say what is delgado doing?With the last out of the game he almost blow the grounder by lopez
How much do you think we can get glaus for?
And put him at first
And put him at first
I believe the $50 to $53 million would all be put towards the 25 man roster. The minor league budget would be separate as most players down there are paid on a different scale from big league players.
I think it's interesting that JP says they've already identified about ten players they'd like to follow closely for when they possibly pick in the top 5 for 2005. He also mentioned they're looking for someone who could help them quickly so that seems to rule out a high schooler though recently we've seen a lot of polished high schoolers move to the bigs as fast as their college counterparts. I'm thinking of guys like Greinke and Kazmir.
I think it's interesting that JP says they've already identified about ten players they'd like to follow closely for when they possibly pick in the top 5 for 2005. He also mentioned they're looking for someone who could help them quickly so that seems to rule out a high schooler though recently we've seen a lot of polished high schoolers move to the bigs as fast as their college counterparts. I'm thinking of guys like Greinke and Kazmir.
'How much do you think we can get glaus for?
And put him at first'
Get Pedro and put him behind Halladay in the rotation!
A. If you can't afford Delgado, you can't afford Glaus.
B. Glaus is a better third basemen then Hinske.
And put him at first'
Get Pedro and put him behind Halladay in the rotation!
A. If you can't afford Delgado, you can't afford Glaus.
B. Glaus is a better third basemen then Hinske.
But i think we may be able to get glaus for cheaper than delgado.The last 2 years troy has been hurt.Then put hinske at first
'I believe the $50 to $53 million would all be put towards the 25 man roster. The minor league budget would be separate as most players down there are paid on a different scale from big league players.'
Yes, some players on the 40 man roster would make less. However, players we forget about on the 60 day DL like Estalella are still getting paid major league money and you have to pay prorated major league money to whoever you call up. Injuries have to be accounted for in that 50 (or 53 or whatever budget). If they have a 53MM budget, you can't spend right to 53 million because of injuries and because it makes you inflexible in trades. It's better to save some flexibility then lose out on a good deal because Rodgers wouldn't ok adding 2MM to the budget at the deadline. Sort of like how Oakland wouldn't give Beane 1.8MM for Jeff Kent.
Yes, some players on the 40 man roster would make less. However, players we forget about on the 60 day DL like Estalella are still getting paid major league money and you have to pay prorated major league money to whoever you call up. Injuries have to be accounted for in that 50 (or 53 or whatever budget). If they have a 53MM budget, you can't spend right to 53 million because of injuries and because it makes you inflexible in trades. It's better to save some flexibility then lose out on a good deal because Rodgers wouldn't ok adding 2MM to the budget at the deadline. Sort of like how Oakland wouldn't give Beane 1.8MM for Jeff Kent.
If Glaus has been hurt for the past 2 seasons, why would the Jays even bother risking a long term investment in him? Same goes for Sexson. I think both will command rather large salaries, and the Jays are better off looking elsewhere when it comes to finding their "power supply."
'But i think we may be able to get glaus for cheaper than delgado.The last 2 years troy has been hurt.Then put hinske at first'
Hinske doesn't hit well enough to play first base in the American (some might say International) League. Why would the Jays want to risk 8-10MM on someone who has missed the last 2 seasons? I can't see a scenario where Troy Glaus is a Blue Jay in 2005, short of the league contracting the other 29 franchises.
Hinske doesn't hit well enough to play first base in the American (some might say International) League. Why would the Jays want to risk 8-10MM on someone who has missed the last 2 seasons? I can't see a scenario where Troy Glaus is a Blue Jay in 2005, short of the league contracting the other 29 franchises.
But tmaybe he will take a short term deal.I mean come on we are going to have to get some power with carlos gone. who do you want
It'll be interesting to see what kind of money Glaus commands. He's had just a terrible year injury wise but still packs a big punch with the bat. If he ever stays healthy for a full year again he should hit 40 homeruns but he only played 91 games last year and only 31 games so far this year. That has to hurt his asking price.
I agree that Glaus would be a much better third baseman than Hinske though maybe playing first would be easier on Glaus health-wise. If the Jays signed Glaus I would think hard about trading Hinske for an affordable option at first base and/or pitching. Hard to say if Hinske would have any trade value with his most expensive years ahead of him though.
I agree that Glaus would be a much better third baseman than Hinske though maybe playing first would be easier on Glaus health-wise. If the Jays signed Glaus I would think hard about trading Hinske for an affordable option at first base and/or pitching. Hard to say if Hinske would have any trade value with his most expensive years ahead of him though.
The Jays have a couple players that are not under contract next year, but are still under Toronto's control (Hudson, Johnson, Cash) How much money do you think these guys will get?
But tmaybe he will take a short term deal.I mean come on we are going to have to get some power with carlos gone. who do you want
I don't know who is going to be available. You won't know until players are non-tendered. I'd love to have Delgado and Glaus, but neither is going to happen.
'If the Jays signed Glaus I would think hard about trading Hinske for an affordable option at first base and/or pitching. Hard to say if Hinske would have any trade value with his most expensive years ahead of him though.'
I can't imagine that Hinske has any trade value at this point.
His deal is just about to escalate from 3 to 4.3 to 5.6 million over the next three years. That's a bit pricey for someone hitting at replacement level in 2004.
I don't know who is going to be available. You won't know until players are non-tendered. I'd love to have Delgado and Glaus, but neither is going to happen.
'If the Jays signed Glaus I would think hard about trading Hinske for an affordable option at first base and/or pitching. Hard to say if Hinske would have any trade value with his most expensive years ahead of him though.'
I can't imagine that Hinske has any trade value at this point.
His deal is just about to escalate from 3 to 4.3 to 5.6 million over the next three years. That's a bit pricey for someone hitting at replacement level in 2004.
Johnson and Cash they can renew I believe at ~300k. Don't know if Hudson is arbitration eligible. If he is I hope he doesn't win a GG.
It's hard to figure Hinske's future.
JP has stuck up for him numerous times on the Fan and mentions how his defence has really improved and when he signed him to the long term deal he expected: .260-.270 BA, 20-25 HR's, and 70-80 RBI's.
He still says he likes Hinske at the price he got him for.
But on the flip side I remember he told a caller you would see Wells, Rios, and Hudson on the field next year for the Jays for sure. Hinske's name was left off his left.
He's had a short career thus far, but I get the feeling his rookie season was a a fluke and that season isn't the correct indication of what kind of player he is.
JP has stuck up for him numerous times on the Fan and mentions how his defence has really improved and when he signed him to the long term deal he expected: .260-.270 BA, 20-25 HR's, and 70-80 RBI's.
He still says he likes Hinske at the price he got him for.
But on the flip side I remember he told a caller you would see Wells, Rios, and Hudson on the field next year for the Jays for sure. Hinske's name was left off his left.
He's had a short career thus far, but I get the feeling his rookie season was a a fluke and that season isn't the correct indication of what kind of player he is.
O-Dog isn't Arby eligible until 2006 I don't believe.
If I'm JP, I lock up Orlando to a 3 or 4 year deal worth about 10 million for the length of the contract. He won't command and shouldn't command Wells type money, but he's proven enough that he should be rewarded.
I'm tired of hearing about Russ Adams possibly flipping over to second base. Don't Jays fans realize that they have one of the best 2nd basemen in the league already? If you want Adams and Hill to both play, have one play short and one play third... just don't touch the O-Dog.
I'm tired of hearing about Russ Adams possibly flipping over to second base. Don't Jays fans realize that they have one of the best 2nd basemen in the league already? If you want Adams and Hill to both play, have one play short and one play third... just don't touch the O-Dog.
So yeah, how much would the Jays be paying Hudson and Towers?
I'm trying to fill out a spreadsheet. :)
I'm trying to fill out a spreadsheet. :)
Cash will renew if he isn't traded for a useful part. I mean the Jays could get the same production out of a minor league signing though probably without the good defence. Would we really notice the difference if it was Estallela playing every fourth or fifth game instead of Cash?
I think Johnson and Hudson will each get a modest raise as both are held in good regard by the club.
I think Johnson and Hudson will each get a modest raise as both are held in good regard by the club.
i agree lock up hudson put adams at ss put hill at 3b.What do you do with heinske? And maybe John Hattig is the real deal put him on first or dh with him flipping with Eric Crozier. Thats a cheap infield and very unproven and Q behind the plate.
Jays have Hudson one more year before he's arby eligible. I think they'll let him play out the year and then either give him a two year deal or trade him depending on his performance and how tight the money situation is and how ready Adams and Hill are to play the middle infield.
You keep Hinske for now, he's showing signs that maybe his power is coming back. But if he continues to struggle past this year, I'd have to guess that either Hattig or Hill would eventually replace him.
Trading one of the best defensive players in the game at 2B would be a huge mistake. And not only is he one of the best defensively, but he's also above average for the position offensively and he's still improving. His plate discipline continues to improve, as does his power.
I'd trade Adams or Hill before I'd trade Hudson.
I'd trade Adams or Hill before I'd trade Hudson.
i just dont think hinske will ever be a big time power guy. A very solid player yes.But we need power from our corner pos.I just dont know if a team will take that salary
I think adams and hill are going to be great ball players you dont trade them... Didnt hudson call jp a pimp a few years ago
'I'd trade Adams or Hill before I'd trade Hudson.'
Depends what folks are offering. If I can get something that gives me
player in return for hudson + adams > hudson + adams then I'd listen. When you are 55-78, noone is untradable (except for the big fella with the no trade clause).
Depends what folks are offering. If I can get something that gives me
player in return for hudson + adams > hudson + adams then I'd listen. When you are 55-78, noone is untradable (except for the big fella with the no trade clause).
The one prospect no body is talking about is John ford griffin he started to show some power late in the season and he always had potential.Maybe a future dh/1b
Any chance maybe the Jays trade Adams in a package deal to LA for Choi? He's a big time power threat, but I can't see where the Dodgers plan to fit him in.
He'd probably be one of the best, cheap power threats available.
He'd probably be one of the best, cheap power threats available.
Rory, you wouldn't happen to have a brother named Johnnys, would you?
adams and hill we invested in them .WE gave them over a million dollars in signing bonuses and they will not be free agents for at least 6 yrs after they enter the L. If anything i see them trading hudson
no Jonny.... choi are you serious. After depodesta took all the heat in getting choi he is not going to trade him.Plus they have a stud in joel guzman in there minors
It would be cool to get Choi, but I think his HR total is deceiving.
Homers by month
April: 9
May: 2
June: 2
July: 2
August: 0
His only 25, and he's BIG, but still...
Homers by month
April: 9
May: 2
June: 2
July: 2
August: 0
His only 25, and he's BIG, but still...
Did JP say anything of interest on the post-game show other than the above-discussed $10 million Delgado comment?
Ugh: What's with the love affair with Choi? At best he's a question mark. He's worse than Josh Phelps. He's the most overrated player in the majors. A player in a similar situation is Meintkosiodivjsiwsz with Boston. I'd take that guy in a heartbeat over Choi. Ugh: if the Jays pick up Choi I'll be hopping mad.
Has anyone noticed that Delgado's making a contract push - it finally looks like he's playing for some reward. I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt: it could be that he's just getting healthy.
Has anyone noticed that Delgado's making a contract push - it finally looks like he's playing for some reward. I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt: it could be that he's just getting healthy.
The only power option I can see maybe being our price range is arbitration eligble Adam Dunn in Cincinatti.. The question is though, what would Cincy want in return? Josh Banks is a person who might draw their interest.
Unless Richie Sexson feels that playing in Toronto would be whats best for his career and gives us a discount of course.
Now excuse me while I laugh at my own comment.
Now excuse me while I laugh at my own comment.
Meintkosiodivjsiwsz: that's the best mis-spelling of that name ever, do the reserach.
Banks for Dunn i would do that in a heart beat!
With Delgado shown the door, is the new "evil empire" now ran by...
Quiroz, Cash, Hudson, Woodward, Segua, Johnson, Wells, Rios, Gross, Negron, Halladay, Chulk, File and the couple I missed that were still pre JP?
Quiroz, Cash, Hudson, Woodward, Segua, Johnson, Wells, Rios, Gross, Negron, Halladay, Chulk, File and the couple I missed that were still pre JP?
Why on earth would you take Mientkiewicz over Choi and why would you even consider them as comparable?
And what's with the love affair with misspelling Mientkiewicz's name? It's really not that difficult to spell.
And what's with the love affair with misspelling Mientkiewicz's name? It's really not that difficult to spell.
I agree with Mike. I think than Dunn may well be priced out of Cincy and if so I believe he will be JP's prime target. It will take a couple of pitching prospects to get him but fortunately we have lots of those and could spare a couple as long as Dunn was locked up for at least 3 years.
BTW, I'm surprised that no-one has yet mentioned that David (or will it be Dave) Purcey pitched six hitless innings for Auburn tonight. So, what do you think about that!
BTW, I'm surprised that no-one has yet mentioned that David (or will it be Dave) Purcey pitched six hitless innings for Auburn tonight. So, what do you think about that!
How is this i am just asking? Trade for griffey and maybe the reds pay for half his salary.Maybe coming to the AL with the dh and fill in as an OF whould prevent him from getting injured. I mean he is getting a little over 9 million for 4.5 maybe i whould do it.I am just throwing this out there?
The new Emperor of the new age "Evil Empire" definately has to be FSL league MVP Ismeal Ramirez who can't even buy a promotion to Double A.
Peter _And jason arnold pitched very well tonight
zack jackson purcey and a healthy mcgowan sounds real good
zack jackson purcey and a healthy mcgowan sounds real good
Not to mention Purcey didn't walk any batters and struck out 5 in those 6 innings. Great start!
If Purcey can get past his control problems, the Jays could have a potential top of the rotation type starter... plus he's lefty!
And what's with the love affair with misspelling Mientkiewicz's name? It's really not that difficult to spell.
Spelling his name correctly would be no fun at all. I rather stick with spelling it Mientkwieriaidjfisjdf or Mentasjijiwerjiajsdf.
:)
If Purcey can get past his control problems, the Jays could have a potential top of the rotation type starter... plus he's lefty!
And what's with the love affair with misspelling Mientkiewicz's name? It's really not that difficult to spell.
Spelling his name correctly would be no fun at all. I rather stick with spelling it Mientkwieriaidjfisjdf or Mentasjijiwerjiajsdf.
:)
Does anyone know how to link to a specific Retrosheet boxscore? My browser simply keeps the Retrosheet main page URL at the top.
List of Blue Jays probably on there way out:
Towers..(via trade?)
Delgado (JP all but said tonight they were not goign to resign him)
Berg
Cash (Can't hit, Quiroz and Zaun able to play)
Woodward (Hes proven hes not an everyday shortstop)
Any other people i missed?
Towers..(via trade?)
Delgado (JP all but said tonight they were not goign to resign him)
Berg
Cash (Can't hit, Quiroz and Zaun able to play)
Woodward (Hes proven hes not an everyday shortstop)
Any other people i missed?
Thomas, when you click the link for a specific boxscore, try right-clicking, and choosing "Copy Shortcut" or something similar. That should work.
Probably de los Santos (remember him?) And I think Catalanotto (No room in OF, not enough power for 1B/DH) Speier is without a contract, but he's finishing strong so I think JP will bring him back.
Also maybe some Farmhands like Howie Clark, Jason Kershner, Aquilino Lopez.
Also maybe some Farmhands like Howie Clark, Jason Kershner, Aquilino Lopez.
yep yep de los Santos forgot about him completely. Also Maurer and Lightenberg. But Lightenberg is still under contract so who knows what will happen. Negron is a 6 yr FA so he might also be gone. Spier i think will be back because JP has indicated that he will re sign him.
Cat will be back if he wants to stay. The Jays need insurance for left field and/or DH. You can always use another quality lefty bat although if they can find a better use for Frank's $2 million or so I'm sure they'll keep their options open.
Thanks James.
Man, who would have thought a year ago that Lopez would be a non-factor in the 2004 bullpen and would basically be written out of the 2005 bullpen plans?
Man, who would have thought a year ago that Lopez would be a non-factor in the 2004 bullpen and would basically be written out of the 2005 bullpen plans?
how about Valerio De Los Santos and Kerry Ligtenberg thats combined almost 3 mill in salary.I dont know how we are going to get trade both of them.I think kerry signed a 2 year deal i am not sure about val.
Well they left negron out in the rule 5 draft but nobody took him.
Well, I guess you can have a starting OF of Gross, Wells, and Rios with a bench of Johnson, Cat, Menechino and Zaun.
Still though, is it worth $2M to have Catalanotto as an insurance OF/DH?
Still though, is it worth $2M to have Catalanotto as an insurance OF/DH?
De los santos is not under contract next year.
Kerry actually gets a raise next year...from 2M to 2.5M. Ugh, I hope he returns to 2003 form.
Kerry actually gets a raise next year...from 2M to 2.5M. Ugh, I hope he returns to 2003 form.
De Los Santos is only under contract for one year. He's Doug Creek redux.
i just dont understand delgado.. He could of went to a contenter in the dodgers and he said no. We would have got James loney a good hitting prospect and maybe 2 pitching prospects and the dodgers are loaded. we are not going to get anything for delgado.. and go figure he is making a salary push!!
He mentioned a 50 mil budget and said you have to take into consideration other players will be getting raises next year. He also mentioned the Jays are not one player away but a few players away.
Hmmm. I see his point, but:
- The Jays, without Delgado's bat, have a bad offense.
- You can't buy several good players with what you save on Delgado. If you try to fill several holes with middle-range players, you get the Pittsburgh Pirates of a couple of years back (Derek Bell, etc.).
- More fans will be driven away if they don't sign Delgado or a comparable player, as the team is likely to lose 90+ games.
Having said all that, J.P.'s strategy will work if he and Rogers stick to their guns (assuming that they get lucky with the prospects). They'll have to take a lot of heat if the 2005 Jays lag behind in the division, though, and they may be tempted to pull the plug.
Hmmm. I see his point, but:
- The Jays, without Delgado's bat, have a bad offense.
- You can't buy several good players with what you save on Delgado. If you try to fill several holes with middle-range players, you get the Pittsburgh Pirates of a couple of years back (Derek Bell, etc.).
- More fans will be driven away if they don't sign Delgado or a comparable player, as the team is likely to lose 90+ games.
Having said all that, J.P.'s strategy will work if he and Rogers stick to their guns (assuming that they get lucky with the prospects). They'll have to take a lot of heat if the 2005 Jays lag behind in the division, though, and they may be tempted to pull the plug.
Jays have Hudson one more year before he's arby eligible. I think they'll let him play out the year and then either give him a two year deal or trade him depending on his performance and how tight the money situation is and how ready Adams and Hill are to play the middle infield.
Wouldn't that negate the part of the plan where they bring up young players together in waves? The O-Dog is a mighty part of that first wave.
Wouldn't that negate the part of the plan where they bring up young players together in waves? The O-Dog is a mighty part of that first wave.
Negron is not a 6 six free agent. He was drafted in 2000 so he only has five years under his belt. He is, however, rule 5 eligible again and a much bigger risk to be taken this year.
I'd agree that Negron is a slightly bigger risk to be taken this coming year, but I still don't see it as any reason to put him on the 40-man roster. It would take a very unusual team to saddle themselves with an outfielder that hits as poorly as Negron for a whole season.
If someone wants Negron and is willing to invest that much in him, I'd say good riddance to bad rubbish. If he is taken, he'll more likely net the Jays $25,000 and be back in the fold by the fourth week of spring training.
If someone wants Negron and is willing to invest that much in him, I'd say good riddance to bad rubbish. If he is taken, he'll more likely net the Jays $25,000 and be back in the fold by the fourth week of spring training.
Negron really tailed off in the latter part of the year. I wouldn't waste a 40 man spot on him.
I would like to keep negron in the minors and not lose him in the rule 5 draft ( i just think some team may gamble on him this time)He is only 22 and was a former 1st round pick.He may develup a little late look at Raul Tabado showing real progress i know its a ball.And look at Gustavo Chacin he had over a 4 era in his minor league carreer going in to this year.I just hate losing players that have a lot of potential like negron
Yes it would be nice to be able to keep all the guys who have major league potential, but there just isn't room. If you add Negron then you risk losing someone else like, incidently, Chacin or Tablado.
The way things stand now, I don't think I'd add him either but I can definitely see a team trying to pick up a cheap 4th outfielder with upside and speed. Dewayne Wise anybody?
The way things stand now, I don't think I'd add him either but I can definitely see a team trying to pick up a cheap 4th outfielder with upside and speed. Dewayne Wise anybody?