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And never mind that noise you heard
It’s just the beast under your bed,
In your closet, in your head

Angels 5 - Jays 2

  1. Recaps:
    • Elliott Teaford:

        Blue Jays right-hander David Bush was flawless as he worked through the Anaheim Angels' formidable lineup for the first time Tuesday at Angel Stadium.
        Three men up in the first inning. Three men down.

        Three up in the second. Three down.

        Three up in the third. Three down.

        It didn't look as if Bush had broken a sweat after retiring the Angels in order on only 32 pitches over the course of three innings. But the streaking Angels finally got to him in the fourth and he and the Blue Jays were soon down for the count during a 5-2 loss in front of 36,277 fans.

    • Mike Ganter:

        The Jays' 2004 post-season aspirations officially bit the dust at 12:33 a.m. as the Anaheim Angels defeated the Jays 5-2, eliminating them from contention for the American League wild card in their 138th game.

        "I would have thought that was a month ago," Jays interim manager John Gibbons said.

    • AP:

        Bartolo Colon has been on and off in his first year with the Angels.

        Anaheim's burly right-hander was on Tuesday night, pitching seven strong innings in a 5-2 victory over the Toronto Blue Jays.

        The win was the Angels' fourth straight and pulled them within 1 1/2 games of AL West leader Oakland, which lost 7-1 to Boston.

    • Geoff Baker:

        The earliest regular-season elimination in 24 years for the Blue Jays was sealed last night in similar fashion to dozens of losses that preceded it.

        Toronto had chances early against Anaheim Angels ace Bartolo Colon in a must-win series for the home side. But the stumbling Jays offence failed to get the job done and then watched as the professional Anaheim bats chipped away at rookie starter Dave Bush.

        It added up to Toronto being officially eliminated after only 138 games as the true American League hopefuls pull ever-so-much-farther away.


  2. Fordin Notes (by Elliott Teaford) on Toronto's veteran players:

      Pride is the overwhelming motivation for first baseman Carlos Delgado during the final weeks of 2004. Delgado, who earned AL Player of the Week honors Tuesday, homered in six of his last 10 games before the Blue Jays began a six-game trip Tuesday.

      After a down season, Delgado said Tuesday he's determined to finish strong.


  3. Ganter Notes on Kerry Ligtenberg and Carlos Delgado:

      Delgado was named American League player of the week yesterday, the first time this year a Blue Jays player has received that honour and the first baseman's ninth such award, a team record.

      For the week, Delgado hit .381 with six runs and seven RBI with three home runs. Also in contention for the award were Anaheim's Garret Anderson (.423, 7 RBI) and Baltimore's Jay Gibbons (.389, 3 HR, 7 RBI) and Rafael Palmeiro (.400, 2 HR, 7 RBI).


  4. In "Crozier content to watch, learn" Mike Ganter talks to the one callup who hasn't started a game yet:

      The slugging first baseman, obtained by the Blue Jays in last month's trade that sent Josh Phelps to the Cleveland Indians, has yet to start a game but has appeared in two since his September call-up.

      While his first start should come against the Texas Rangers later this week in Arlington, Tex., Crozier, 26, is content to sit and watch Carlos Delgado.


  5. Larry Millson talks to injured ace Roy Halladay in "Halladay working his way back:

      Halladay's return is tentatively set for the three-game series against the New York Yankees in Yankee Stadium from Sept. 21 to 23.

      "But what game, or if it's going to be that day for sure, I don't know," said Halladay, who is 7-7 and has a 4.35 ERA in 18 starts for the Blue Jays, who opened a three-game series last night in Anaheim, Calif., against the Angels.

      "But I feel good. I'm always trying to get them to maybe try and speed it up a little bit. That's kind of been the target date."

  6. Tonight's 10:05PM EST start in Anaheim: RHP Justin Miller (2-3, 5.64 ERA) vs. RHP Kelvim Escobar (9-9, 4.10 ERA). See MLB.com's game preview.

Jays Roundup - Hush Little Baby, Don’t Say a Word | 75 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
_Spartan - Wednesday, September 08 2004 @ 10:20 AM EDT (#36372) #
Bartolo Colon looked like a Metallic Sandman out there last night ... goodie, thats my first one.
Thomas - Wednesday, September 08 2004 @ 10:32 AM EDT (#36373) #
Crozier's actually appeared in two different games, pinch-hitting in one and coming in as a defensive replacement in the other.
_Moffatt - Wednesday, September 08 2004 @ 10:36 AM EDT (#36374) #
Crozier's actually appeared in two different games, pinch-hitting in one and coming in as a defensive replacement in the other.

Oops... you're right. That should be "started". I'll change that.

Bartolo Colon looked like a Metallic Sandman out there last night ... goodie, thats my first one.

Excellent Spartan! The song was Enter Sandman by Metallica. You win 100 million points and a picture of an Atolla jellyfish:



Cool.
_Spartan - Wednesday, September 08 2004 @ 10:36 AM EDT (#36375) #
Why isn't Gibbons giving Crozier more at bats, he hasn't even been given a start yet. This guy had a great AAA season, so lets see what he can do.
_lurker - Wednesday, September 08 2004 @ 10:53 AM EDT (#36376) #
Amen Spartan.

In that blowout for us the other day Delgado wasn't pinch-hit for by Crozier, which annoyed me. It was the bottom of the 8th with nobody on and the game well out of reach. Instead he comes on to pinch-field.

Give Reed a few nights off, we already know his value. With a lost season the only thing worth watching is the kids, I can't stand this "field our best lineup" crap. Because *newsflash* our 'best' lineup ain't that great and hasn't won us too many games this year.
_Ducey - Wednesday, September 08 2004 @ 11:18 AM EDT (#36377) #
Chachin made #13 on the BA Hotsheet where they said:
On June 5, Chacin got ripped, giving up 10 runs in just 2.1 innings in a 14-6 loss to Portland. This is of note because that was the last time Chacin lost this year, as he went 14-0, 1.86 in his final 16 starts (including a pair of emergency starts at Triple-A Syracuse), finishing with a minor league-leading 18 wins.

David Purcey also got an honorable mention.
Coach - Wednesday, September 08 2004 @ 12:09 PM EDT (#36378) #
I can't stand this "field our best lineup" crap.

Repeating myself, as I am somewhat prone to do, why not let Mike Barnett work with Crozier for a while? Barney knows Adams and Quiroz from spring training, so it appears they didn't have to do any major swing work together. This is the first time he's had a chance to even look at Crozier, and it wouldn't surprise me at all if they are focusing on a few things in the cage before trying them out in games.

You're entitled to your impatience, of course. I'm just pointing out that the impulsive demands of fans are rarely better for developing a young player than the decisions of experienced baseball professionals. Where some choose to be annoyed, I choose to trust in the people who know what they're doing. Crozier's in very capable hands; he'll get his chances when the time is deemed right.

I'm sure there will also be Mariners fans who complain when they don't see Jeremy Reed every night, Angels fans who hate that Dallas McPherson is on the bench, Phillies fans who insist on Ryan Howard replacing Jim Thome immediately, and so on. To me, the most important aspect of September callups is that the rookies can benefit enormously just by being around the veterans. There's no magic minimum number of AB or IP that makes the experience worthwhile. They are learning in practice, in the dugout, in the clubhouse and on the airplanes -- there's a lot to absorb. I'd like to see Crozier too, but I can wait; probably the best thing for Eric (and he seems to know it) is to follow Delgado around and soak up as much big-league wisdom as he can.
Mike Green - Wednesday, September 08 2004 @ 12:34 PM EDT (#36379) #
I agree with everything Coach said, except the part about Phillies fans insisting on Ryan Howard replacing Jim Thome immediately. If I were a Phillies fan, I'd be too irritated with the team's performance under Bowa this year to worry about the future.:)

Speaking of poor managers, the Astros' amazing performance since Jimy left got me to thinking. Twice now, Jimy Williams has been fired during the season after massively disappointing team performances, with the team rebounding very strongly after the firing (the other time was the 89 Jays). This has happened before to other managers, but I wonder if it has happened before to the same manager twice.
_BCMike - Wednesday, September 08 2004 @ 12:53 PM EDT (#36380) #
http://vancouvercanuckshockey.blogspot.com
I can't stand this "field our best lineup" crap

You also have to remember that the Angels are in a playoff race, the Jays have an obligation to put out a competitive lineup.
Coach - Wednesday, September 08 2004 @ 12:57 PM EDT (#36381) #
The last time we got off on a tangent about old One-M, Gerry lined to this hilarious column by Bill Simmons. Some of my favourite lines:

If you keep searching for answers, you drive yourself crazy and end up feeling like a kangaroo with a hangover.

I'm just a squirrel tryin' to get a nut. Sometimes you come up empty, sometimes you end up scurrying down a tree with three acorns in your mouth. You never know. As long as you stay away from those woodchucks, you're OK.

You can't mess up a pot of tomato sauce, after you've already poured gasoline into it.

Wacky lineup cards, lack of communication, general apathy, inane and totally random moves ... that's all stuff I've been doin' for years! I don't know where people get this crap from! Look at my track record in Boston! Look at my record in Toronto!


All imaginary, of course, but highly plausible, if you've ever listened to the man speak. Replacing him with almost anyone would improve a team.
Gerry - Wednesday, September 08 2004 @ 12:59 PM EDT (#36382) #
I was reading about Tony LaRussa last week and about how he gets the most out of his players. The comment made was that he puts his players into positions where they can succeed. Even though it might appear that a young player should play every day, they might learn more by watching some of the time, than by playing. Also you do not want a young player to start 0-20, you want him to get a hit ASAP. So start Crozier against a pitcher who is not as good as Bartolo Colon, hopefully he will get a hit and build on it.

There are also 25 other personalities to work with in the clubhouse. And if the Jays have any plans to bring back Delgado, they are not going to put him at the end of the bench for September.

This is a time for players to get a feel for big league play, they can get that feel with 40 bats, as well as they can with 100.
_Tyler - Wednesday, September 08 2004 @ 01:37 PM EDT (#36383) #
But Coach...isn't Jimy an "experienced baseball professional"? Surely he knows more about the game than just about anyone else. I'd also note that the guy who replaced him in Houston wasn't exactly Connie Mack either-Garner had terrible teams in Milwaukee. It seems to me that Houston has been helped a lot more by the fact that their guys have started hitting. It's possible that Garner played some role in that, but post hoc ergo proctor hoc...
Craig B - Wednesday, September 08 2004 @ 01:43 PM EDT (#36384) #
I can't stand this "field our best lineup" crap.

It's required of the Jays, by longstanding MLB practice, to field their best lineup against teams that are competing for the playoffs. If you can't stand it, that's unfortunate, but it's the team's duty.

the guy who replaced him in Houston wasn't exactly Connie Mack either-Garner had terrible teams in Milwaukee

Hey, Connie himself had some of the worst teams of all time. You need the horses. Garner did OK in Milwaukee, not nearly as bad as I thought he had once I researched it. On hearing of his hiring, I actually went back, intending to write a long piece about what a disaster he had been. I couldn't write the piece... he actually wasn't that bad.
_Moffatt - Wednesday, September 08 2004 @ 01:49 PM EDT (#36385) #
You need the horses.

This is especially true for polo.
_dp - Wednesday, September 08 2004 @ 02:05 PM EDT (#36386) #
You also have to remember that the Angels are in a playoff race, the Jays have an obligation to put out a competitive lineup.

Why would they start now :(

Unless you put Crozier at DH, where Gross has been starting, you've got to send him out to LF or 1B. Delgado shouldn't be on the bench, especially against the Angels, especially if they want to have any sort of good will toward him going into negotiations, especially if these are his last handful of games as a Jay, and I suspect Johnson's playing because he's better than average in LF. Wells is dinged up in general, and could probably do without having to cover both CF and LF.

Also worth noting that, even without Crozier, the Jays are already playing the young guys. I'm sure we'll see him get 40+ AB by the time the season's done.
robertdudek - Wednesday, September 08 2004 @ 02:35 PM EDT (#36387) #
You need the horses.

This is especially true for polo.


And harness racing.
_Moffatt - Wednesday, September 08 2004 @ 02:36 PM EDT (#36388) #
And harness racing.

Heh. I was waiting for someone to tell me that they dislike water polo because it's cruel to the horses. :)
Coach - Wednesday, September 08 2004 @ 02:44 PM EDT (#36389) #
Gee, Tyler, you've got me. Yes, I suppose I'd prefer to have Jimy develop young ballplayers than, say, a fan who has never set foot in a dugout and "learned" the game on the Internet. His fungo-hitting skill alone would be an advantage. But within the realm of "experienced baseball professionals," some have to be better than others. The list of those better than Jimy is quite long and continues to grow.

I didn't say that Garner deserves the credit for Houston's recent and fascinating surge, I said that replacing Williams with "almost anyone" would improve a team. Surely you can recognize hyperbole; I am merely agreeing with Mike's premise that Jimy, among current and former MLB managers -- and probably the vast majority of future ones -- is the poster boy for addition by subtraction.

Garner did OK in Milwaukee

I thought so too. They were tough in '92, then when Yount got old and Molitor came to T.O., Garner did his best to keep an overmatched club respectable. Whether or not he's responsible for the Astros' turnaround, Phil will reap some benefits, like job security and a boost to his reputation. Good for him. Whoever follows Larry Bowa into Philly will also have a hard time screwing up the opportunity; I can't imagine "anyone" (not to be taken literally) doing a worse job with that particular stable of polo ponies. Dramatic improvement should be easy, as long as the new guy stays away from those woodchucks!
Coach - Wednesday, September 08 2004 @ 02:50 PM EDT (#36390) #
Garner's managing his butt off again this afternoon; first-inning HR by three Killer B's and a Lamb.
Pistol - Wednesday, September 08 2004 @ 03:20 PM EDT (#36391) #
Mr. Burns: You, Strawberry, hit a home run.
Strawberry: Okay, skip. (hits a home run)
Mr. Burns: (laughs) I told him to do that.
Smithers: Brilliant strategy sir.
_Tyler - Wednesday, September 08 2004 @ 03:46 PM EDT (#36392) #
I guess the point that I was aiming for in relation to the Jimy Williams as "experienced baseball professional" jab is that even many of those who are baseball professionals make decisions that are wrong. Sometimes, a person watching from the outside can be correct, even if they aren't "experienced baseball professionals".

You slapped down the guy who suggested batting Adams leadoff, strongly implying that the "experienced baseball professionals" are far more likely to make the right decision than some ignorant fan, when those same "experienced baseball professionals" let Adams hit leadoff the previous game, against a pitcher who throws just as hard as Colon has been most of this year, and who has been just as, if not hotter over his past 5 starts. Those two decisions seem pretty contradictory to me, and open to criticism, even if they were made by "experienced baseball professionals".

"Experienced baseball professionals" make mistakes all of the time, some of which even your garden variety ignorant fan can see as they are made. Certainly you seem to feel that Jimy Williams can be criticized, despite having earned the title of "experienced baseball professional." It isn't much of a leap to suggest that the management of a team on it's way to a 90-100 loss season isn't infallible, and that there is room for criticism of their decision making. If that's offensive to those who are close to the Jays management around here, well, that's too bad. There is a lot of room to criticize this team right now...
Dave Till - Wednesday, September 08 2004 @ 04:26 PM EDT (#36393) #
Speaking of poor managers, the Astros' amazing performance since Jimy left got me to thinking. Twice now, Jimy Williams has been fired during the season after massively disappointing team performances, with the team rebounding very strongly after the firing

The Jays should, therefore, hire Jimy for the start of the 2005 season, and then fire him in about mid-May. :-)

It isn't much of a leap to suggest that the management of a team on it's way to a 90-100 loss season isn't infallible, and that there is room for criticism of their decision making.

I would be more critical of the Jays' management team, except I can't think of anything that J.P. should have done that he didn't do. The offense looked solid, and he built the pitching staff by signing two rotation starters and three bullpen guys, and then trading for a fourth bullpen guy.

At the start of the year, most of us thought that the Jays would do very well this year - last year's team won 86 games, and this year's team, on paper, looked better than that. Unfortunately, lots of people got hurt, and the team's best hitters underperformed (partly because they got hurt too). There's not much a general manager can do under such circumstances.

The question I'd ask someone who was criticizing the management team is this: what would you have done differently, given the information available to you in April (as opposed to the information we have now), and given the available budget?
Named For Hank - Wednesday, September 08 2004 @ 04:31 PM EDT (#36394) #
http://www.bluejayscheerclub.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=15
You slapped down the guy who suggested batting Adams leadoff

Was that in another thread?

It isn't much of a leap to suggest that the management of a team on it's way to a 90-100 loss season isn't infallible, and that there is room for criticism of their decision making. If that's offensive to those who are close to the Jays management around here, well, that's too bad. There is a lot of room to criticize this team right now...

Reading this thread, I see some pretty compelling arguments against starting the rookies every single day. Rather than saying "well, the Jays management make bad decisions and therefore this is another one", this conversation would go much further if you presented a contrary position: the upside for playing the rookies every day. Otherwise we end up in another endless injuries-vs-bad luck-vs-bad management-vs-voodoo argument about The Season From Hell and where it originated.

I still think it was that unworn hat in the back of my closet. COMN.
_Magpie - Wednesday, September 08 2004 @ 04:43 PM EDT (#36395) #
Williams as "experienced baseball professional"

There is no shortage of testimony, from players and managers, describing how effective Jimy Williams has been as a coach and as a teacher. As a manager, however....
_Magpie - Wednesday, September 08 2004 @ 04:56 PM EDT (#36396) #
It isn't much of a leap to suggest that the management of a team on it's way to a 90-100 loss season isn't infallible, and that there is room for criticism of their decision making.

No doubt. I don't know what they could have done differently. Everything made sense...

Law of baseball. This obviously applies to game management, but I suppose it applies to team management as well.

Just because you make the right decision doesn't mean that decision is actually going to work.

I suppose they should have had a better Disaster Contingency plan - there are always disasters, one never knows what they will be, but there's usually something. But that's one of the problems with a $50 million dollar budget. If things go wrong, there's not much flexibility left over to deal with them.
_Jobu - Wednesday, September 08 2004 @ 04:58 PM EDT (#36397) #
vs-voodoo

Sorry, I got bitter no one gave me my rum and cigar. Tell ya what. I'll make them win the pennant next year to make up for it.
_Mick - Wednesday, September 08 2004 @ 05:02 PM EDT (#36398) #
Mr. Burns: You, Strawberry, hit a home run.
Strawberry: Okay, skip. (hits a home run)
Mr. Burns: (laughs) I told him to do that.
Smithers: Brilliant strategy sir.


heh, Pistol, I had a personal experience very like that (hope that doesn't make me Monty Burns!) ... when I was coaching high school girls hoops in Ohio, there was an almost eerie moment in one game where our best player brought the ball up the court and stopped atop th circle -- and the gym fell dead silent. No reason, just got completely quiet. The players seemed confused a little and stopped, too .. no ball movement, no defensive pressure. So I yelled to my point guard -- and everyone in the gym could've herad me if i was whispering -- "LYnette! Shoot the damn ball!"

So she actually looked back at me, nodded, and calmly knocked down her third three-pointer of the game. At that point, my assistant coach Aaron, wanders over, pats me on the back and says "Our best player is wide open and you tell her to shoot? Great coaching minds all around the country are quaking in fear."

The bench broke up and Lynette couldn't figure out why everyone was laughing at her scoring streak.
_Mick - Wednesday, September 08 2004 @ 05:10 PM EDT (#36399) #
I would be more critical of the Jays' management team, except I can't think of anything that J.P. should have done that he didn't do.

You mean, besides drafting Mulder, Zito and Hudson?
Mike Green - Wednesday, September 08 2004 @ 05:18 PM EDT (#36400) #
Magpie, the HTML thing is coming along quite nicely.

I would have done a couple of things differently. Some would probably have worked out well; others not so. But, in the end, the results this season seem to me to be pretty much inevitable in light of the injuries, performances of key players that anyone would have kept, and the budget.

As for lineup placement of younger players, I remember when Bobby Cox had the Jays best hitter of 1985, Jesse Barfield, hitting eighth. It drove me nuts. Jesse had conquered the strike zone in 1984, and was, in my mind, ready to take his rightful place in the middle of the order. Looking back, I doubt that it made that much difference. And Cox was, and is, a fine manager.

Anyways, Russ Adams' situation is nothing like Jesse's was. He's up for the classic September cup of coffee. He's here to learn, so that hopefully he can contribute to a winning club next year. Whether he bats leadoff or ninth, or gets 40 ABs or 80ABs has very little to do with the success of the project.
Dave Till - Wednesday, September 08 2004 @ 05:23 PM EDT (#36401) #
Just because you make the right decision doesn't mean that decision is actually going to work.

Yep. You have to be lucky as well as smart.

J.P.'s biggest problem is that he hasn't been lucky enough. I'm not sure how you can fix that. :-)
_Tyler - Wednesday, September 08 2004 @ 05:23 PM EDT (#36402) #
One of the reasons I've been pretty strong in defence of JP, and critical of people like Rich Griffin who've been on him all year is that I have a hard time criticizing any of his moves. I'm even on board with letting Carlos walk at the end of the year, something that I don't think is a universally accepted position, even around here.

Personally, the thing that's bothered me the most about upper management this season were the comments about Hinske in the BP interview a while back-as I said at the time, I think JP was being a bit sneaky with his answer, and I hope it's not true that he isn't disappointed. I worry that it is-perhaps it's unavoidable, but JP does seem to like to have "his" guys-witness Sturtze getting a contract here after absolutely sucking in TB. If he is satisfied with Hinske at such a reduced level of performance, that leads me to question his performance.

As for playing the rookies every day, it's not something that I was advocating, but I think that to offer a snarky response to someone who suggests that Adams should bat leadoff, backed by an assertion that the Jays staff obviously knows what's best, is just as bad as saying that all of the rookies should be playing every day. I really don't think it matters too much from a development standpoint where Adams bats in the order, and the suggestion that he can't handle the pressure of it, when he did it the day before is, to be frank, absurd. All things being equal, I'd just as soon see Russ Adams getting AB's over Reed Johnson at this point in the season, so I'd come down on the side of him batting leadoff. (This whole debate was in last night's game thread)

As for Magpie's comment that good decisions don't necessarily lead to good results-I couldn't agree more. DePodesta talked about this is a speech that was posted on the internet a while ago, the relationship between process and results. The gist of it was that you should be mroe focused on your process than your results, and that getting good results with bad process can really throw you off track. I happen to think that this season has been one of bad results for the Jays, despite the fact that they've made good decisions.
_Magpie - Wednesday, September 08 2004 @ 05:34 PM EDT (#36403) #
You mean, besides drafting Mulder, Zito and Hudson?

Been there, did that.

Unfortunately, he wasn't working for the Blue Jays when he was part of it.
Gerry - Wednesday, September 08 2004 @ 05:38 PM EDT (#36404) #
I think it is very likely that JP is disappointed in Hinske. But other than George Steinbrenner GM's and managers never criticise a player by name unless they want to deliver a message. Such criticism invariably gets back to the player and can create a player relationship problem.

I think JP is also probably disappointed in Delgado, Woodward, Cash, the bullpen, etc., but he will not come out and say it with names attached.
_Magpie - Wednesday, September 08 2004 @ 05:41 PM EDT (#36405) #
the HTML thing is coming along quite nicely.

Thank you! Practise makes...uh, better?

In retrospect, perhaps it was unreasonable to expect the offense to be as good in 2004 as it was in 2003.

Now no one could have expected both Delgado and Wells to get hurt. But Wells had made a big leap forward in 2003, and Delgado had had one of his two best seasons ever. Greg Myers at the age of 37 or 38 had made a much bigger contribution than anyone could have reasonably expected. Chances were that all three would contribute less in 2004.

Not this much less, but less.

I imagine they did anticipate that to some extent, and were counting on improved production from Hinske and Hudson, and, especially, better pitching to offset it.

Not all that unreasonable a plan. It just didn't work.
_Tyler - Wednesday, September 08 2004 @ 05:45 PM EDT (#36406) #
Going forward, is it reasonable to expect more production from Hinske next year than this year? I have no idea if he's healthy or not, but absent any indication that he isn't, I'd assume that he is. After two seasons, I don't know that it's wise anymore to expect Hinske to pick up some of the slack offensively. I guess if I was JP, one of the players I'd be looking for in the offseason is someone who can play some third to fill the Dave Berg utility role.
_6-4-3 - Wednesday, September 08 2004 @ 05:51 PM EDT (#36407) #
The Blue Jays are running the "Sign up for our newsletter, get free tickets" promotion again. This time it's for the series vs Tampa Bay, on September 17 - 19. I did this for the series vs the A's and I had a good time, even though the tickets weren't great.

The URL is:

http://toronto.bluejays.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/tor/ticketing/connect3_form.jsp
_Jonny German - Wednesday, September 08 2004 @ 06:01 PM EDT (#36408) #
To me, Hinske is a mystery, I really don't understand why he's tanked. I agree it would be unwise at this point to expect him to step it up a lot next year, but I won't be shocked if he does so. Finding a good backup for him would be a very low priority in my book, I don't think you're going to find someone significantly better than John Hattig at a utility infielder price.
_dp - Wednesday, September 08 2004 @ 06:10 PM EDT (#36409) #
The contigencies (Hermensen, Pond, Bernard) failed this year too, but there were some things I would've done differently. Not they they would've worked out, but I would've tried them. I would've given Pond/Hermensen some more PT to see what they could do. But they were both pretty weak in the minors. The roster management in April was weird- I thought the Jays had a solid plan with bringing Hermensen in, but ultimately, he and pond forced them to deal Werth, which looked like a good thing until Frasor's recent implosion. At the time, I thought the Werth trade was a bad thing, and I still do. The bullpen managemnt was a mystery, and should've been handled by JP earlier. Still, nothing would've prevented what happened regarding the injuries. The loss of Myers is forgotten in all of this...is his career done?
_dp - Wednesday, September 08 2004 @ 06:12 PM EDT (#36410) #
I guess if I was JP, one of the players I'd be looking for in the offseason is someone who can play some third to fill the Dave Berg utility role.

Can that be a guy named Frankie? How is he at 3B?
_Tyler - Wednesday, September 08 2004 @ 06:20 PM EDT (#36411) #
Fair point re: Hattig, it may well be difficult to find a replacement. As for Menechino, I'm not so sure I'd like to see him return. He's been wonderful this year, but he's massively outperforming what he's done in the recent past (well over his 90th percentile projection per PECOTA), and he's 33 years old. I believe he had a concussion that may have been partly to blame for his performance in the past, but still he doesn't seem like he's a likely candidate to repeat. If he's cheap enough I'd be intersted, but I imagine he'll draw some interest elsewhere after the season he's had, and I don't know how much money you want to tie up in a guy who just had a career year.
_Ryan Lind - Wednesday, September 08 2004 @ 06:29 PM EDT (#36412) #
Just curious...is JP still going to be on the radio after tonight's game? I'm thinking he may not be because it will be past midnight over there in Ontario.
Pistol - Wednesday, September 08 2004 @ 06:35 PM EDT (#36413) #
Old utility players aren't exactly breaking the bank. I bet he could be signed for $750k.
_Rob - Wednesday, September 08 2004 @ 06:37 PM EDT (#36414) #
Probably a pre-game "Wed W/JP" today, Ryan.
_Ryan Lind - Wednesday, September 08 2004 @ 06:39 PM EDT (#36415) #
Okay, so like, 6:00? Could someone let me know when he's coming on so I can go to the Fan's site and listen? Much appreciated.
_Rob - Wednesday, September 08 2004 @ 06:46 PM EDT (#36416) #
Well, 6 pm out West. ;)
Named For Hank - Wednesday, September 08 2004 @ 07:01 PM EDT (#36417) #
I'd bet that Menechino would get the same kind of deal Myers got this year -- an acknowledgement of what he did last year with a pay hike.

I'm pretty sad about Myers. I wanted him to prove the "he can't repeat" faction wrong so badly I could taste it. And yet, '03 was quite a season to go out on, so if he's done he can point to it and say "I was good to the end, then I was great."
_Tyler - Wednesday, September 08 2004 @ 07:02 PM EDT (#36418) #
Even for 750K, I wonder if he's worth it. If he returns to being the player that he has been in the past, he's probably not, although his versatility is nice-rare that you can find a 2B/closer. Personally, I'd probably be more inclined to go with a minor league callup such as a Hattig, or free agent, on the premise that he probably makes less than 750K, and may well have the same upside as Frankie, if not the constant grin that makes him such a fan favourite.
_6-4-3 - Wednesday, September 08 2004 @ 07:12 PM EDT (#36419) #
According to Dugout Dollars, Berg's $700,000 contract expires at the end of this season. If that's the case, I wouldn't mind if the Jays spent the Berg money on Menechino, so that he fills the veteran utilityman / dirtbag / closer role. If this season's proven anything, it's that it never hurts to have a potential injury back-up on the roster.
Named For Hank - Wednesday, September 08 2004 @ 07:14 PM EDT (#36420) #
I thought it proved that if you have backups they'll just get hurt too.

;)

I prefer to think of Menechino and Myers not as flukes but as guys who just never had that one piece of key advice given to them that would make them a much better hitter, and that they got that advice when they came to Toronto.

So if Menechino re-signs, I'll probably be fighting the same Myers battle again over the summer.
Coach - Wednesday, September 08 2004 @ 07:26 PM EDT (#36421) #
Could someone let me know when he's coming on

Ryan, J.P. and Mike are scheduled from after the 8:40 (Eastern) update until about 9:30, followed by the pregame show. You can call in at 1-888-666-0590.

There might not be a huge audience tonight; the hockey game will still be on.
_Ryan Day - Wednesday, September 08 2004 @ 07:28 PM EDT (#36422) #
I prefer to think of Menechino and Myers not as flukes but as guys who just never had that one piece of key advice given to them that would make them a much better hitter, and that they got that advice when they came to Toronto.

You could probably apply this to Zaun, Bordick and Gomez as well.

Perhaps the Jays need to adopt a new strategy: Sign a whole bunch of middle-aged utility players, expose them to Mike Barnett's mojo, and win the World Series. Who needs Delgado when when you can just supercharge Shane Halter?

It would be like having a whole team of Luis Sojos, but with hitting.
robertdudek - Wednesday, September 08 2004 @ 07:55 PM EDT (#36423) #
I've heard several comments over the last two years from J.P. about Woodward along the lines of "He has the talent to be a productive everyday shortstop, he just has to go out and do it" or words to that effect. But I haven't heard J.P. being critical of any of the other players on Gerry's list.
robertdudek - Wednesday, September 08 2004 @ 07:59 PM EDT (#36424) #
Menechino is arbitration-eligible, so he'll be free to negotiate with another club only if the Jays non-tender him. I wouldn't mind signing him for 3 years at 3 million - that would give Menechino security and be a reasonable reward for someone who's put in the effort that Frankie has. The other option is to go year-to-year; Frankie might get something like 1.2 million in arb.

And I don't think that's overpaying - on the open market a player with Menechino's skills is going to cost you over a million.
_DaveInNYC - Wednesday, September 08 2004 @ 08:30 PM EDT (#36425) #
Otherwise we end up in another endless injuries-vs-bad luck-vs-bad management-vs-voodoo argument about The Season From Hell and where it originated.

When these kind of arguements ensue, I can't help but wonder (and I don't want to come off as some sort of simpleton by saying this) but isn't it possible for a team to just underperform and, for lack of a better word, suck?

Sure the injuries played a large role, but injuries are a part of the game, and are a part of sports in general. The best of teams in sports have overcome massive injury lists, and not all of them have Yankee like payrolls. I think people tend to over-analyze sometimes, this might be one of those times. Can't a team just have a down year? Does there have to be an excuse behind it? They just underperformed badly, that's all. I, personally, refuse to give into a loser's mentality and say that the reason they weren't as good was due to injuries.
_DaveInNYC - Wednesday, September 08 2004 @ 08:37 PM EDT (#36426) #
And to clear up my last sentence, I am not calling anyone who believes the team has played poorly due to injuries an idiot. I am just saying that personally I see blaming injuries for poor play as kind of "an easy way out" or an excuse.
_Magpie - Wednesday, September 08 2004 @ 08:47 PM EDT (#36427) #
Wilner and Ricciardi are on now...
_Magpie - Wednesday, September 08 2004 @ 08:52 PM EDT (#36428) #
They just underperformed badly, that's all. I, personally, refuse to give into a loser's mentality and say that the reason they weren't as good was due to injuries.

A bit of both, really. When your best players go down, the other players have to do more. This year, they did less, thereby creating the disaster that has so far unfolded. Almost everyone has underperformed. And all of their best players missed significant amounts of time. I think it was the combination of the two that was especially lethal.
_Ryan Lind - Wednesday, September 08 2004 @ 09:01 PM EDT (#36429) #
Thanks, Coach. Unfortunately I just tuned in now. Have I missed anything?
_Alex Obal - Wednesday, September 08 2004 @ 09:02 PM EDT (#36430) #
The hockey game is over for all intents and purposes, so here's a recap of the first segment of...

Wednesdays with JP!

Wilner introduces the game and mentions last night's results. JP is at Manchester watching the Fisher Cats in their pitchers' duel with Binghamton. He's really impressed with Chacin. Wilner mentions the 16-decision unbeaten streak and likes how Gus pounds the strike zone. Wilner asks if Chacin's forced his way up the prospect depth chart; JP gives an emphatic yes.

Wilner asks for impresions about the September callups. JP says it's too early to say anything, but he likes the nucleus that the Jays are building and is excited about it.

Caller #1: Rob in Toronto! "Are there any bonafide closers that you know of that may be on the free agent market that you may have the wherewithal to sign?" He also asks about developing closers in the minors, and whether you can simulate the pressure in the majors on their way up. JP says they're not grooming a closer, but he says most closers were starters for all of their time in the minors, and says the Jays have lots of guys coming up through the minors who can do the job. JP, regarding potentially signing a closer: "The right guy that we can afford is just not out there right now."

Caller #2: John in Toronto! "It seems as though, going into the offseason and into next year, we've got a glut of talented younger outfielders, and I was wondering if there are any plans in the works to perhaps improve the pitching or another area of the ballclub through a trade of one of the outfielders that we have." JP isn't about to give any of them away unless he gets something that can help him longterm, since he thinks they're all going to be good players. JP stresses the long-range plan. JP, when listing the number of young guys ready to make an impact: "You're gonna see Adams next year at shortstop." His job to lose?

Caller #3: Fred in Bradford! "You originally forecast aiming for 2005, 2006 for the WS. How do you feel after this year that we are going on that schedule?" That's certainly a fair question. JP stresses that the idea is to have a strong competitive organization in place in 2007 and Wilner quickly brings it to the ad break.

Nothing particularly interesting yet, aside from the Adams comment, but I think we all figured Russ would get a shot at the top SS job in spring anyway. JP is hanging around until 9:30.
_Ryan Lind - Wednesday, September 08 2004 @ 09:07 PM EDT (#36431) #
Awesome. thanks for the recap, Alex.

JP, regarding potentially signing a closer: "The right guy that we can afford is just not out there right now."

Scott Williamson!
_Tyler - Wednesday, September 08 2004 @ 09:15 PM EDT (#36432) #
Another guy who wants to see the pursestrings opened up. Nice to see that Wilner knows his history, and that the Jays are at the same payroll level historically.
Thomas - Wednesday, September 08 2004 @ 09:15 PM EDT (#36433) #
JP on Reed Johnson and Gross. He thinks Gross will be an everyday player, and that Reed Johnson probably isn't an everyday player and in an ideal scenario would play about "100" (but likely less) games a year in a reserve role.
_Rob - Wednesday, September 08 2004 @ 09:16 PM EDT (#36434) #
Basic questions now, on salary increases and the new turf.
You can probably guess the answers, but I'll post them anyway.

1) "We're trying to do the best he can with what we have."

2) "Paul Godfrey is working hard on that."

It's funny hearing the F-Cats game in the background -- I can hear the bugle charge quite clearly. Also, "now batting, John-Ford Griffin". Another bugle call.
Thomas - Wednesday, September 08 2004 @ 09:17 PM EDT (#36435) #
Does anyone know what the question about Kerry Ligtenberg that this caller is referring to, which JP gave a very honest answer to?
_Tyler - Wednesday, September 08 2004 @ 09:18 PM EDT (#36436) #
"We finished in last place with him, we can finish in last place without him." Ouch.
Thomas - Wednesday, September 08 2004 @ 09:18 PM EDT (#36437) #
No suprises on the question about Carlos. "It has to be a number that works for us."
_Tyler - Wednesday, September 08 2004 @ 09:21 PM EDT (#36438) #
I'm still hung up on his answers about JP-can someone confirm to me that he just said that Hinske is a strong player relative to his position, or something along those lines?
Thomas - Wednesday, September 08 2004 @ 09:21 PM EDT (#36439) #
JP's cellphone is dying and the interview ends. 0-0 in the top of the 7th in the game; Chacin is still rolling along.
_Rob - Wednesday, September 08 2004 @ 09:21 PM EDT (#36440) #
JP: "I love Carlos but it has to be a number that works for us."

Last caller's questions/comments:
- Bordick was the leader last year, Delgado is not one at all. He's [the caller] happy to see Delgado leave, if he does.
- Does the Spring Training from this year have anything to do with the bad April?
- Eric Hinske is not a clutch hitter or full-time hitter, and has bad third-base skills.
- Why is Wells swinging at so many first pitches?

I missed JP though. Damned phone. Anyone hear them?
_6-4-3 - Wednesday, September 08 2004 @ 09:22 PM EDT (#36441) #
I was just listening to it via the internet feed, and I think JP said something along the lines of "We didn't sign Eric thinking that he'd be a .300 hitter with 30 homeruns, we signed him thinking he'd be a solid guy for his position", and before that, he said that Hinske had had a decent year, neither great nor bad.
Thomas - Wednesday, September 08 2004 @ 09:23 PM EDT (#36442) #
JP said, "I don't think he's having a strong year, but I don't think he's having a bad year. I think his rookie year raised people's expectactions to an unrealistic level. We didn't sign [trade] him thinking he'd be a .300-30 hitter."

I don't know if I remember hearing strong relative to his position, but he doesn't sound disapointed by him in any way.
_6-4-3 - Wednesday, September 08 2004 @ 09:24 PM EDT (#36443) #
I wasn't listening with the intent to transcribe, but I believe that JP's final answer started with "You're an astute fan, a lot of your concerns are concerns we have", and he continued into the Hinske stuff that I just posted. I'm not sure if he directly addressed Delgado or Wells, he had to go quickly.
_Alex Obal - Wednesday, September 08 2004 @ 09:28 PM EDT (#36444) #
I'm with everyone else - I didn't hear anything about leadership, Wells' affinity for first pitches, or Hinske being strong relative to other 3Bs. JP barely heard the caller's question, though, because of his dying cell phone.
_Rob - Wednesday, September 08 2004 @ 09:42 PM EDT (#36445) #
Me: I missed JP though. Damned phone.
and
Alex: JP barely heard the caller's question, though, because of his dying cell phone.

Heh. I meant my phone rang and I missed the answers -- kind of funny that his phone was a problem as well.
_Rob - Wednesday, September 08 2004 @ 09:43 PM EDT (#36446) #
Thanks for the answers to the questions, though, guys. Pretty much stuff I already knew (and I'm sure you all did as well) but thanks anyway. Much appreciated.
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