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Trivia question : the Baseball Hall of Fame doesn't have anyone who is best-known as a statistician, but the Basketball Hall of Fame does. Who is he?
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_Mick - Thursday, November 25 2004 @ 12:00 PM EST (#12386) #
I wouldn't have known this except for the plug he got in our All-October Hall of Names team, so it's a good thing he wasn't born in December. I assume you're referring to Henry Chadwick, "inventor" of the modern box score.
_Paul D - Thursday, November 25 2004 @ 12:14 PM EST (#12387) #
Can I offer insane trades in here?

I think that the Raptors should approach the Pacers about VC for Jermaine O'Neal. They'd have to sweeten the pot somehow... they'd definitely need to throw in a big man. And they should do it while he's still suspended.

Okay, that's probably ridiculous, but here's a question.

If you have one player with value, and one player that's grossly overpaid (I'm thinking of VC and Rose here, but this could be any team), does it make more sense to just live with the overpaid player, and trade the player with value for more value, or to try to make them a package deal, knowing that you'll get less value, but that you'll get come cap relief? (Basically trade them for a couple of stiffs whose contracts expire at the end of the year).

I'm not convinced that cap space is as valuable as some NBA execs seem to think.
Craig B - Thursday, November 25 2004 @ 12:21 PM EST (#12388) #
Silly me. Henry Chadwick is in the Baseball Hall, and he's probably primarily a statistician.

OK, so ignore the first part of the question. Who's the statistician in the Basketball Hall of Fame?
_Braby21 - Thursday, November 25 2004 @ 12:27 PM EST (#12389) #
I agree, cap room would be great, but there's no free agents out there next summer, and the few that will be there, probably won't come to Toronto. I'd rather see them keep Vince & Jalen, they are both proven NBA players, and I think once they realize that they're not going to be traded, they will step it up. They have both proven to be big shot players, so I'm hoping they can fall into the playoffs and then Vince & Jalen's pride will take over, and they'll play Basketball the way it was meant to be played.
_MatO - Thursday, November 25 2004 @ 12:39 PM EST (#12390) #
I think the problem with trading just Carter for an expiring contract is that it won't free up much if any cap space on its own. The Raptors are over the cap already and ridding themselves of Carter may bring them down to cap level or a little below it but not enough to sign anyone of significance. I think that's why they wanted to include Rose in any such deal for expiring contracts because that would allow them to be significantly under the cap. Any deal for Carter alone I think has to be for some value.
Craig B - Thursday, November 25 2004 @ 12:40 PM EST (#12391) #
The problem with keeping Jalen Rose is that he hasn't even produced at the level of an average NBA player for about years now, and even in his prime he was never better than average except in 99-00 and 00-01. Plus he's 31 now, he'll be 32 before the end of the year, and he's slowing down noticeably.

Jalen Rose can be a solid contributor in a bench role, playing 20 minutes a night, there's no question. But will he ever accept one?
Dave Till - Thursday, November 25 2004 @ 01:10 PM EST (#12392) #
Woohoo, another hoops thread!

Lordy, the Knicks were awful last night. The Raptors were getting open looks all game, and seemingly scored at will. Nice to see Vince get a windmill slam, even if he is about to leave town. :-)
_Braby21 - Thursday, November 25 2004 @ 01:42 PM EST (#12393) #
I'm all for getting rid of Jalen, but its not going to happen, unless you package him with Vince, and even then you're not going to get anything in return except for expiring contracts. I'd see this as two options, keep them both, or get rid of them both, and I'd rather see option 1.
_Mick - Thursday, November 25 2004 @ 02:21 PM EST (#12394) #
Silly me. Henry Chadwick is in the Baseball Hall, and he's probably primarily a statistician.

That's too funny ... I actually misread the question to be the reverse of what you asked. I googled the answer you're looking for, so won't offer it here. Definitely fits the "at least I've heard of Henry Chadwick" category.
_S.Bialo - Thursday, November 25 2004 @ 02:45 PM EST (#12395) #
First of all, I think trading Rose away would help, period, regardless of what he's earning. He's a locker-room cancer waiting to happen, and as Craig pointed out, is at best an average offensive player with negative value at the defensive end. I also don't understand why people keep citing his leadership qualities - why is Carter a malignant tumor that needs to be excised while his bench-riding partner in selfish play gets lauded for being a good influence?
_Wildrose - Thursday, November 25 2004 @ 02:45 PM EST (#12396) #
Good to see another Hoops roundup page. Getting rid of Jalen Rose and his contract would be much like J.P. getting rid of Mondesi, unappreciaciated but huge (comm).
_S.Bialo - Thursday, November 25 2004 @ 02:47 PM EST (#12397) #
I think the Raps can get more than expiring contracts for Vince and Jalen. The important thing to look for isn't pure talent, but players that fit into the rotation and would flourish under Mitchell's style of play. If we could get at least one promising young player in the deal and avoid taking on any albatross contracts, I think that would be a good deal.
_Donkit R.K. - Thursday, November 25 2004 @ 03:07 PM EST (#12398) #
I have a few things to say, some of which are a continuation from the last thread: Geoff - I agree that Bonner deserves to be rewarded, but if this trade ever happened (a trade proposal I made up all by myself, dont take this seriously) I couldn't justify taking minutes from Bosh, Marshall, or Sweetney (a young guy I really like). Perhaps Bosh could play a little more at center or Tim Thomas could be buried since his main value is the expiring contract but... Bonner's minutes should be reduced, but only lightly, if this trade happened.

Some reaction to Vince's declaration about dunking being overrated and how he didn't wat to do it anymore (what's your say Craig? Isn't it a good, high percentage shot that helps you get to the FT line as well?). Then, he comes out and throws down four times over the following two games (and some nice ones too).

Also, using the trade checker I finally made a trade work that I actually like for the Raptors. Who'd rather make a huge splash by landing Vince than Isiah? New York would love the hype I think and Thomas clearly isn't afraid of making a big move and taking on money. How about:

New York Receives :
Vince Carter
Jalen Rose
Lamond Murray

Toronto Receives :
Jamal Crawford
Mike Sweetney
Anfernee "Penny" Hardaway
Tim Thomas

It gives Toronto two big contracts coming off of the books this year (Penny and Thomas) who are still servicable players for this season and two good, young players locked up for a while (3 years for Sweetney and 6 for Crawford). I could see the Raptors with a starting backcourt of Alston at the 1 and Crawford at the 2. Marshall (once healthy) could finally get back int he starting lineup where he belongs at the 3, Bosh can remain at the 4, and Woods at the 5. Crawford could play some point as could Penny in a pinch but Palacio can remain the main back-up there (unless Penny needs the minutes). Penny and Mo-Pete could split time backing up at the 2 and Mo-Pete could be a third option at the three (behind Tim Thomas as primary back-up). Bosh remains at the 4, with Sweetney backing him up. In order to get Sweetney a lot of minutes, Bosh can slide to the 5 for about 10-12 minutes a game and Sweetney can also play at the 4 for the 6 or 8 minutes Bosh sits. Bosh and Marshall can take some minutes at the 5 behind Woods and Araujo is always available (but for no more than about 10 minutes ... absolute maximum) and Bonner and Mason (what happened to him) can be the last options at the forward and guard positions, respectively. I like that team as a 4 or 5 seed in the East. If Penny or Thomas' (preferrably Penny's) expiring contract could land a solid starting option at center they could hang with Detroit and Miami, IMO.I've transferred this over here from the end of the last box-ing out thread and will now wait (patiently ;-)) for my proposed trade and rotation to be torn apart :-P.
Craig B - Thursday, November 25 2004 @ 03:26 PM EST (#12399) #
I'm all for getting rid of Jalen, but its not going to happen, unless you package him with Vince, and even then you're not going to get anything in return except for expiring contracts.

Well, Derek Anderson and Shareef Abdur-Rahim have already been offered, and each of those guys is an upgrade in my book. The Raps would also have to give up Milt Palacio, which is addition by subtraction as faras I'm concerned.
_Braby21 - Thursday, November 25 2004 @ 03:34 PM EST (#12400) #
The Knicks mock trade doesn't help the Raptors at all. Crawford is over paid, he doesn't play defense and takes consistantly breaks plays to take bad shots, remind you of anyone on the Raptors? Why would you want him on your team for the next 6 years, I'm not too sure. Sweetney made be a solid player in the NBA, but you're getting rid of Vince, who sells tickets and is your franchise player, for body. Penny and Thomas are horrible, so basically all you're getting is expired contracts out of them, and who do you sign next summer?

The only way Babcock can make a trade that makes his team better is to get rid of Jalen and keep Vince. If you haven't traded him yet I don't see how you can trade Vince now, he's at his all time low as far as the market goes, you won't get anything back in return.
_Donkit R.K. - Thursday, November 25 2004 @ 04:38 PM EST (#12401) #
Crawford is overpaid, but so is Jalen Rose (terribly) and so is Vince Carter (at least the one who averages 15-4-4) while Crawford is still a solid contributor. The team would be built around Alston-Bosh and a healthy Marshall. Sweetney, I think, will be a solid scorer and monster rebounder in time. Ray Allen and Rashard Lewis are both FAs this coming year. I think a core with Bosh and Alston will look desirable to a FA Swingman or center (I don't know of any good ones this summer).
_Braby21 - Thursday, November 25 2004 @ 07:42 PM EST (#12402) #
Unless Toronto is prepared to go over the cap again, they wouldn't be able to sign that FA swingman. They're already a Jalen Roses's contract over the cap. So therefore Crawford and Vince's deals basically cancel each others out. I'd rather have Vince & Jalen than Crawford & Sweetney. Why not wait a couple years until their contracts expire, and also Lamond Murray's and Alvin's expire, and to no surprise they signed Mo Pete to a 3 year deal, so his would expire then too. Then they would have some cap releif and by that time the NBA will have (hopefully) negotiated shorter contracts which would able them to sign a nice FA and not have to worry about signing a nice FA who will be horrible in 3 years and have 4 max years left on their contract. I don't see how you're helping the problem by signing Crawford. I don't see why everyone wants to turn the Raptors into the 03-04 Chicago Bulls, they weren't very good.
_Fawaz K - Thursday, November 25 2004 @ 08:12 PM EST (#12403) #
Bill Mokray?

Zeke wouldn't make that trade because he just acquired Crawford and, by all accounts, he isn't one to even hint at a mistake. The moves he's made are ones that have changed the work of previous administrations, not his own. Shoot, he won't even cut Lenny Wilkens loose! I suspect that Vince would not amuse fans in New York, he barely copes with the media here. Rose and Murray are not attractive long-term options; at least not when compared to Crawford. Even in New York there are rumblings about the team's payroll eventually coming back to bite it in the ass, they may just let those contracts expire without taking on any more bad ones.

One season of Tim Thomas is too much. He's not been especially productive, at least for the money he's making, and he's not someone I'd want anywhere near Bosh for even one minute, nevermind a season. Despite his whining, Penny has been one of my favourite players (Backcourt2000, oh what if?), but he too can get sulky.

I think that the Portland trade was probably as good a deal as the Raps could hope for.
Craig B - Friday, November 26 2004 @ 12:09 AM EST (#12404) #
Fawaz, excellent. It was indeed Bill Mokray.
_S.Bialo - Friday, November 26 2004 @ 12:40 AM EST (#12405) #
Unfortunately, Shareef nixed the Portland trade. I agree that it's not only the best real rumor so far, but it might be the best idea I've seen at all that had a chance of happening (ie a chance of both GMs going for it). Who knew Shareef had such an ego? Not only asking for a trade, but refusing to go when a deal seemed imminent? I never would have thought it of him.

Any thoughts on Jamaal Magloire? We'd probably have to take on Mashburn to make it happen... and I'm not sure, at this stage, that Magloire represents enough of an upgrade over our current frontcourt to make it worthwhile, but I've heard him mentioned often as the Raptors "dream deal". Your take, guys?
_Ryan C - Friday, November 26 2004 @ 12:47 AM EST (#12406) #
If Magloire were to be traded to Toronto, what's the over/under on how many days before we see a newspaper article about how he never plays for Canada in international competition? Whatever it is Im taking the under.
_Braby21 - Friday, November 26 2004 @ 08:33 AM EST (#12407) #
Personally I'd like to stay away from Mashburn's contract. Shareef isn't a bad person, the only reason he didn't want to play in Toronto, is b/c he would've been playing SF, and that's the original reason why he wanted out of Portland. All Shareef wants is to play his natural position somewhere.
Leigh - Saturday, November 27 2004 @ 01:55 PM EST (#12408) #
As I write this, Matt Bonner is 3/4 vs. the Knicks at MSG. That brings his season (and NBA career) field goal percentage to an even .6 (51/85).

How big does the sample have to be before .6 means something? Lovin' the Red Rocket; is he for real?
_Donkit R.K. - Saturday, November 27 2004 @ 02:49 PM EST (#12409) #
I think Bonner will be a good rotation guy for years to come. Solid but not spectacular contributor as a 6th man/sometimes starter. Definitely a fan favorite in the makings...
_Braby21 - Sunday, November 28 2004 @ 11:13 PM EST (#12410) #
Horrible Loss for the Rapts. A must win at home against the Wiz before they go on an(other) 6 gamer on the road. Can't wait to watch Tuesday's game against Miami, should be a good one.

At least Matt Bonner's fg% actually increased with a 3 for 4 performance!
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