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What's gone wrong with the Jays, you ask? Well, not as much as you might think: every team goes through bad stretches. (Ask the Yankees, who had to face The Boss's full-on wrath after punting a few games early in the season.) But one thing now seems clear to me: talent always trumps effort.

First of all, let's give credit where it is due: the Jays have moulded themselves into a tough, competitive, hard-working team. Unfortunately, with the exception of Halladay, the Jays don't have much in the way of top-drawer talent. (Wells could get there, and one or two others might eventually step forward, but they're not there right now.) And it's those guys - guys like Manny Ramirez and David Ortiz, to name two - that win you ballgames. (Which is why I think they should have kept Delgado, but that's a whole separate issue.)

My hypothesis: most teams that have top-drawer talent develop it through the farm system, and a certain amount of luck is required. A clever scouting and development team can identify players that are likely to become stars, but there's no way of knowing whether a particular player has the will and the talent to move from the 99th percentile (where all pro athletes are) to the 99.9th percentile (where the star players live) or even to the 99.99th percentile (hi there, Mr. Pujols).

I think those of us who are Jays fans sometimes underestimate how difficult it is to do this. We think that every quality farm system regularly produces players such as Fernandez, Stieb, Key, Barfield, Moseby, and so on and so on. I am now beginning to believe that that was a once-in-a-lifetime fluke - that Pat Gillick, besides being smart and hard-working, was very, very lucky.

As I've often said before (somewhat facetiously), J.P. Ricciardi's biggest weakness is that he just hasn't been lucky enough. For the Jays to seriously contend again, they're going to have to have two or three of their farm guys take those last steps forward into the 99.9th percentile. And none of us know whether that's going to happen - it's up to the Baseball Gods, and they don't tell us their plans.

Comments?
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Andrew K - Sunday, April 24 2005 @ 11:06 AM EDT (#113409) #
I would suspect that out lucky, clever, and wealthy, two out of three would suffice.
kpataky - Sunday, April 24 2005 @ 11:49 AM EDT (#113410) #
Hi Guys! My son and I just got back from Toronto yesterday and boy did we have a great time. We had one problem however. I bought a white Hard Rock Cafe T Shirt, that on the back showed the Toronto city Skyline, with the CN Tower and SkyDome (Rogers Centre) within a Maple Leaf in a fabulous design. It was an extra large. It was the top most item in my suitcase because right before we headed to the airport, we stopped in there for a bite and afterwards, I bought the shirt. The problem is, when I got home, the TShirt was gone and in its place was a little note saying my bag was chosen for inspection. Thieves!

So I was wondering, I have 2 tickets in aisle 114 ($40 face value for each) for the game on May 28th at 4:07 pm vs. the Twins that I could send someone if they were willing to get me a replacement TShirt mailed to me. Any takers please email me.
Cristian - Sunday, April 24 2005 @ 11:51 AM EDT (#113411) #
For years, we've had the scouting world say that JP's drafts have not had much in the way of top tier talent. Rather than JP being unlucky, can we not say that the scouts were right? Of course, as either/or analysis is usually flawed the real answer lies somewhere in the 'little bit of both' camp.

I think JP's been unlucky with his trades. They all seemed wise to me. All except for the Hillenbrand deal which, ironically enough, is the one that has worked the best.

The issue that seems to be forgotten in drafting is that players are often drafted to be traded. Our drafts have skewed too much towards college kids with marginal upside. What ends up happening is when a Kenny Williams type is dangling a player that JP wants, JP doesn't have the players that make scouts drool in order to swing a deal.

So is JP unlucky or is he reaping what he sows?
timpinder - Sunday, April 24 2005 @ 12:22 PM EDT (#113412) #
I think the Jays do have one prospect who could be a superstar, and that's Dustin McGowan. He has Halladay stuff but add a couple MPH to it. I'm anxious, and nervous, to see how he rebounds from surgery. But the Jays do have a tonne of above average prospects and rookie players such as A Hill, J Banks, D Bush, G Gross, R Adams, A Rios, G Quiroz, B League, D Purcey, and F Rosario to name but a few. You're right, none of them are likely to develop into Pujols type players or Clemens type pitchers, but personally, I'd rather have a team that's above average from top to bottom than a team with a couple of superstars and a bunch of average fillers.
Look at the Twins, who remind me of the Jays. Other than Johan Santana they have no superstars either, and look what they're doing. Same goes for the White Sox. Without a Yankee budget, you can spend your money on a couple of superstars and a team of fillers, or you can spend it on a team of above average players from top to bottom. I'd chose the latter, because the Jays tried the former with Delgado and it didn't work.
Wildrose - Sunday, April 24 2005 @ 12:28 PM EDT (#113414) #
The Baseball Analysts compare the NFL draft to the MLB draft. Will J.P. get his superstar from choice #6 overall this year?
david wang - Sunday, April 24 2005 @ 12:29 PM EDT (#113415) #
You Forgot about Cleveland along with the Sox and Twins.

But the Marlins who developed a whole top of high ceiling players like Beckett, Willis and Burkett are doing alright.

But then so did the D-Rays and Mets and look where they are now.
Jim - Sunday, April 24 2005 @ 12:46 PM EDT (#113416) #
I think what the Jays have put together is the shell of a team that will be competitive. The logjam of solid pitching prospects should allow them to avoid 90 loss seasons for the next half dozen years or so.

They do not have the front line talent a team needs to win the AL East. If they were in the Central, the outlook might be very different. Beating New York or Boston isn't out of the question in any given year - beating both of them in a single season is highly unlikely if they spend ~350MM dollars combined.

The 6th pick in this year's draft is a watershed moment in the Riccardi regime. If he can't come up with an all-star player at that pick then the end will come much more quickly. I personally do not think that Riccardi is the GM who is going to take this team to the post-season. I know that is a unpopular viewpoint, but I've just seen too many rad flags over the last 12 months to blindly beleive anymore.
R Billie - Sunday, April 24 2005 @ 02:30 PM EDT (#113440) #
It shouldn't be a shock that the Jays aren't going to score as many runs as the Red Sox and Orioles when they simply lag so far behind in offensive talent.

You can talk all you want about a lunch bucket crew of "grinders" and "character" players. But if you don't have players who can hit the ball often and hit the ball hard and lay off of bad pitches you're just not going to score many runs.

Boston is a lineup of grinders but where would they be without Ramirez and Ortiz? They'd be just another upper-middle class offence instead of a truly fearsome one.

The Jays have money now and they have to use it to get another starting pitcher, another reliever, and COMPLETELY overhaul the offence. It's not anywhere NEAR competitive quality. I mean you're relying on Greg Zaun to hit high in your lineup.

And if these players are underachieving and the younger prospects are not progressing, at what point do we look at the coaching staff?
Mike Green - Sunday, April 24 2005 @ 03:13 PM EDT (#113456) #
I'm a big, big fan of Jesse Barfield, but coming up, he really wasn't a better prospect than Alex Rios. And for a while, he contributed little offensively, but his plate discipline improved as he got older. You simply have to give good young players, like Barfield, Rios, Gross and Aaron Hill, a chance to develop.
timpinder - Sunday, April 24 2005 @ 03:44 PM EDT (#113461) #
I agree with Jim, this is a shell of a team that can be competative but one that will not win a pennant over both the Yankees and Red Sox. I don't think a wild card is out of the question next year though. By next year they'll have Hill's, Gross', and Quiroz's bats in the lineup and Rosario in the rotation. I think they're going to pick up the salary of an ace at the trade deadline this year to give them a 1-2 punch at the front of the rotation, and sign a legitimate free agent 1B/DH this offseason. If they can slip into the playoffs with a wild-card berth, anything can happen.
Cristian - Sunday, April 24 2005 @ 05:32 PM EDT (#113467) #
Mike,

I like how you couple Aaron Hill with Rios when suggesting you have to give young players a chance to develop. Aaron is developing nicely in Syracuse. Why can't Rios do the same?

By the way, did anyone else read Michael Lewis' article in the NYT today? It starts as a diatribe about steroids but once you get past his introduction it turns into an entertaining read on the development of two young players. Whatever you think of Moneyball, it's hard to disagree that Lewis is an entertaining writer.
Dave Till - Sunday, April 24 2005 @ 09:04 PM EDT (#113478) #

Look at the Twins, who remind me of the Jays. Other than Johan Santana they have no superstars either, and look what they're doing. Same goes for the White Sox.

The Twins and White Sox have an advantage: they are in the American League Central. If the Jays played in the Central, they'd have made it to the postseason in 2000 and 2003, at least.

I'm a big, big fan of Jesse Barfield, but coming up, he really wasn't a better prospect than Alex Rios.

I just took a look at Barfield's minor league numbers, and they really weren't very good. I noticed, though, that Barfield had an extremely broad range of skills - he had high triples totals in AA, for example.

I guess the lesson is that class AA ball isn't a good tool for predicting future success.

Ron - Sunday, April 24 2005 @ 11:54 PM EDT (#113483) #
The Twins and White Sox have an advantage: they are in the American League Central. If the Jays played in the Central, they'd have made it to the postseason in 2000 and 2003, at least.
Ron - Sunday, April 24 2005 @ 11:59 PM EDT (#113484) #
I hit the submit button by mistake.

Anyways, I wouldn't go so far to say the Jays would have made it to the postseason in 2000 and 2003. You simply can't guarantee that. I've talked to O fans that have said they would have made the playoffs at least once in the past 5/6 years if it wasn't for playing in the AL East.
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