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Answers to today's questions: the short rest seemed to affect Chacin, and the Jays' bats were lukewarm. Russ Adams continues to sting the ball, even when he makes an out.

Your thoughts?
Baltimore 9 Toronto 5- Swung into summer, but missed | 25 comments | Create New Account
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greenfrog - Tuesday, June 21 2005 @ 10:28 PM EDT (#120239) #
The first inning really seemed to set the tone for the game. I thought Chacin was all right. (He actually lowered his already-good ERA.) The defensive lapses really cost the Jays. Giving a team like Baltimore five outs to work with in the first is asking for trouble.

I'm just not a big Scott Downs fan (career 5.30 ERA; WHIP 1.62). Sorry, Scott.

Adams, like Hill, has been a slow starter offensively at each new level, but has always been able to make adjustments. (Of course, Hill hasn't exactly needed to adjust since he was called up. He's only outhitting everyone else on the team.) If we can get some steady production from Adams, it will be a big boost to the team. And where has Hudson's bat gone?
Fawaz - Tuesday, June 21 2005 @ 10:47 PM EDT (#120240) #
I don't know if NFH has any recent (last couple of weeks) shots of Hinske's stance, but I'm quite sure he's partially reverted to his old stance. His hands are still quite high, but his elbows appear to have dropped. That, or I'm just imagining things.

In any event, I don't think he can stay in the regular line-up and play first without hitting (recently, he hasn't been glorious with the glove either). I'd like to see Hillenbrand and Hill play the field regularly until Koskie gets back. I'd like to see Catalanotto take most of the at-bats at DH and Gabe Gross patrol left field (we've heard this before around here).

Chuck pointed out in the other thread that getting rid of Hinske and the Cat would be difficult because both are overpaid for what they offer. Given this, one possible trading partner is the Yanks. They've been rumoured to be looking for an outfielder that can lead off; subject to the Yanks not finding a better deal (Kotsay?), I think Cat would be a great fit in New York. In return, they could take Hinkse off our hands. And maybe send Rogers one of those sexy turtlenecks. Who am I kidding? This won't happen. Just take Hinske out of the line-up and I'll be OK.
Fawaz - Tuesday, June 21 2005 @ 10:50 PM EDT (#120241) #
Of course, if the Yankees can score 13 runs every inning they may decide that their line-up is just fine.
Lefty - Tuesday, June 21 2005 @ 11:36 PM EDT (#120242) #
I'm going to cut Adams a bit of slack for tonights loss. We all know and accept the kid is going to bobble a few learning the major leagues toughest position.

Hinske and Chacin can equally share the blame for what should have been the third out. All that needed to happen was for the pitcher to run to cover first.

Gibbons has to also shoulder some responsibility. The team was back in the game following Adams homer and then deflated by the Downs insertion. Terrible call.
Flex - Wednesday, June 22 2005 @ 12:10 AM EDT (#120244) #
Regarding bringing Downs in -- what was Gibbons supposed to do? His starter went five innings when the team needed him to go seven, because there's a spot starter coming tomorrow who may not last more than four. Was he supposed to burn Chulk and Frasor for two each? Obviously he hoped Downs could eat a few. Let's not forget the team was losing at the time, and he's trying to save Chulk and Frasor for when the team is ahead. I don't think you can reasonably roast Gibbons for the move.
Paul D - Wednesday, June 22 2005 @ 01:26 AM EDT (#120247) #
I was at tonight's game (my dad was able to get box seats)... and seeing Chacin in person, it looks like he balks on every pitch. He starts he motion, then sort of stutter steps, then finishes.

It didn't seem like he was getting hit all that hard though.
Magpie - Wednesday, June 22 2005 @ 01:36 AM EDT (#120248) #
Can someone possibly explain Lou Piniella tonight?

Nunez pitching:

R Cano singled to center.
D Jeter singled to right, R Cano to third.
R Sierra grounded out to second, R Cano scored, D Jeter to second.
G Sheffield singled to left center, D Jeter to third.
A Rodriguez singled to left, D Jeter scored, G Sheffield to second.

T Harper relieved F Nunez.

H Matsui doubled to deep right, G Sheffield scored, A Rodriguez to third.
J Giambi intentionally walked, R Johnson ran for J Giambi.
B Williams tripled to deep center, A Rodriguez, H Matsui and R Johnson scored.
J Posada homered to right, B Williams scored.
R Cano flied out to center.
D Jeter reached on infield single to second.
R Sierra singled to right, D Jeter to third.
G Sheffield homered to left, D Jeter and R Sierra scored.
A Rodriguez homered to right.
H Matsui homered to center.
R Johnson flied out to right.

Does Piniella even care what happens anymore? OK, Carter pitched the two previous games. Baez faced 5 batters last night, after three days off. Maybe he wasn't available. Corcoran pitched two innings on Sunday. Gardner pitched one inning Sunday. He was definitely available. What the hell is going on here?

Magpie - Wednesday, June 22 2005 @ 01:45 AM EDT (#120249) #
And if you're wondering what Yankee fans thought while all that was going on, a sampler:

Marcus - Have mercy Lou! TAKE HAFNER OUT!!!

Simone - Lou is an ass for leaving in Harper to take this beating.

tocho - I'm not complaining but Lou is a sick SOB, why do that to a pitcher?

chris in c-bus - i respect lou but it looks like he has quit on his team and that is weak...he is just trying to get fired at this point...

seamus - I feel real bad for Harper. I mean that kid should have been taken out for mercy. It was batting practice for the Yankees. Ridiculous. I've never been a huge Lou fan but that really angered me. Don't do that to your players...

stephen1wt - Lou you made your point.Watching him just sit there was was surreal.I think he has done irreversable damage to his team...That was nuts...

brockdc - Classless behavior on Lou's part. If I were playing for the D-Rays I would completely resent him for his sophomoric dugout rants and outright disrespectful attitude toward his players and coaches. Leaving that kid out there in that maelstrom was truly despicable.


Heraclitus - Wednesday, June 22 2005 @ 05:49 AM EDT (#120254) #

?How did Chacin come out of the first inning with only one earned run?

This isn't a lament, but an rules interpretation question.

Roberts reached on the error on the first play of the game... how did that manage to make all subsequent runs in the inning unearned?

Chuck - Wednesday, June 22 2005 @ 06:58 AM EDT (#120255) #
Roberts reached on the error on the first play of the game... how did that manage to make all subsequent runs in the inning unearned?

The way you determine earned runs vs. unearned runs is by recreating the inning, pretending that Roberts was an out. Once the actual 2nd out (i.e., presumed 3rd out) was recorded, everything thereafter was considered unearned. (Naturally Roberts' run itself was considered unearned.)

The rule basically gave Chacin carte blanche to stink and not let it hurt his ERA.

Jordan - Wednesday, June 22 2005 @ 08:08 AM EDT (#120256) #
Can someone possibly explain Lou Piniella tonight?

Aside from embarassing a young reliever for the sake of his own stubborn petulance, no.

Remember when Billy Martin was managing the Yankees for the, I don't know, fourth or fifth time? He left a young reliever named Brian Fisher, who had nothing left in the tank, in a blowout game to absorb a similarly brutal beating. Afterwards, Martin said he was trying to "teach [Fisher] a lesson." Piniella isn't a sociopath like Martin was, but he should remember that these sorts of incidents linger well after your managing days are done.

This is life for the Tampa Bay Devil Rays: you go into Yankee Stadium, knock Randy Johnson out of the game and lead 10-2 after 3 innings -- and you still lose by 9 runs.

Yankee fans celebrating this triumph ought nonetheless be concerned. Johnson got hammered by the Devil Rays at home, a team that had no business touching him up like that. This is the 6th time in 15 starts this year that the Unit has allowed 4 or more earned runs; last season, he gave up that many runs only 7 times in 35 starts. New York is 10th in the AL in team ERA, 11th in OPS against, and dead-last-14th in batting average against, a testament at least in part to the team's rickety defence. Not good.

Pistol - Wednesday, June 22 2005 @ 08:32 AM EDT (#120257) #
And where has Hudson's bat gone?

Maybe he turns it around and looks fine at the end of the season, but he's been really bad this year (negative VORP). And it's his age 27 year, so you'd expect him to naturally improve. Not thinking about it too much, he's been the biggest disappointment on the team.

For what it's worth, BP's stats now have filters so it's easier to find things now. Interestingly, Aaron Hill is already second on the team in VORP (and ahead of Hank Blalock in almost 1/3 the ABs).
Jim - Wednesday, June 22 2005 @ 08:32 AM EDT (#120258) #
Without knowing the inner working of the Devil Ray clubhouse it's tough to comment on Pinella. It could be a situation where the manager was trying to send him a message like Bell did to Grienke a week or so back that you need to listen to the coaching staff.

He was having a horrible season coming into the game, they flashed his line on YES and it was just terrible.

I have no problem with the Nunez outing. Sheffield's hit was a little bloop single. Cano and A-Rod both hit sharp singles but there was a reasonable expectation that Nunez might actually get a couple of more outs.
Jim - Wednesday, June 22 2005 @ 08:34 AM EDT (#120259) #
'Aside from embarassing a young reliever for the sake of his own stubborn petulance, no.'

Travis Harper is hardly young by the way. He's 29 and has almost 200 major league appearances.
Sheldon - Wednesday, June 22 2005 @ 09:09 AM EDT (#120265) #
In a the post game interview thingy Pinella basically said he was hoping that Harper would get that final out...

So basically he's trying to spin it like he had faith in Harper to get out of the inning....

Sure Lou...Sure...
Mike Green - Wednesday, June 22 2005 @ 09:25 AM EDT (#120266) #
Was it petulant behaviour as part of a temper tantrum or apathy? You'd prefer that it was a temper tantrum because that at least would indicate that Piniella cared. The worst possible message that a manager can convey to his club (particularly a young one) is that he thinks the situation is hopeless and he does not care. In light of Piniella's comments earlier this week about D-Ray ownership, the players might reasonably infer from his behaviour that he has given up and does not care.
Jim - Wednesday, June 22 2005 @ 09:33 AM EDT (#120267) #
He spent the entire night in the dugout going berzerk and by the end was throwing things. Didn't look like apathy to me. They also have a day game today so maybe not using the bullpen any further is a smart move.
Petey Baseball - Wednesday, June 22 2005 @ 09:37 AM EDT (#120268) #
Hey guys....J.P. will end up trading O Dog and having Adams play second, with Hill playing short and Koskie third. It makes the most sense from an offensive perspective and we wouldn't be losing much defence. Sure O Dog is the best defensively but Russ Adams would be a superb 2nd baseman as well because of his time at short. I would go so far as to say that Russ's offensive upgrade over O Dog (which will start being noticeable as the games pass) and his solid defence and 2nd will overshawdow the outstanding defensive prowess of the O Dog. Not to mention allowing Hill, Adams and Koskie to play on the same team. I also believe Eric Hinske (barring a relapse of '02, or a sustained offensive improvement) will be had for possibly whatever JP can get, and possibly in the next month or so (or definitley by the break or by the start of '06). This will allow Hillenbrand (who I believe JP really wants to keep)to stay in the lineup everyday to play some 3rd (because of Koskie's health problems), some DH and some 1st, as JP makes another move (whether trade or free agent) to pick up a power bat to play 1st and DH. If you look at the Jays transactions in the past and also look at what teams like the Jays do (ie the A's) this seems like the avenue that Ricciardi will take.

So to sum up, O Dog and Hinske gone, Adams to 2nd Hill to short, Koskie to 3rd. Hilly stays, power bat acquired, plays 1st.

Feel free to take that apart Bauxites, but thats just what I see happening and I suspect many of you do as well.
PeterG - Wednesday, June 22 2005 @ 11:52 AM EDT (#120287) #
I agree with everything in the above scenario except for the placements of Adams and Hill. I believe that it will be Adams at short and Hill at second. Could Frank Thomas possibly be the power bat in question?
westcoast dude - Wednesday, June 22 2005 @ 12:04 PM EDT (#120289) #
Petey Baseball, I agree with you, only I like Hinske coming off the bench in high leverage situations. This weekend series in Washington should be interesting. In fact, today would be a good time to start a win streak and keep it going.
Mike Green - Wednesday, June 22 2005 @ 01:37 PM EDT (#120301) #

I'd tend to put more weight on career patterns than 1/2 season statistics for a 27 year old with 3 years experience. Here are O-Dog's age 26 line and comparables. The regular second basemen include Boone, Oester, Ray, Thompson and Wilfong. O-Dog has a better glove than any of them, although Boone, Thompson and Ray were quite good in their day. Boone and Thompson particularly had good careers into their 30s.

O-Dog's most noticeable decline this year has been in his batting average, related to a poor BABIP, notwithstanding typical line drive and pop-up rates. I'd attribute this mostly to luck. I expect O-Dog to be hitting .265 when the season ends, with his usual ISO power and walk rates.

Named For Hank - Wednesday, June 22 2005 @ 01:42 PM EDT (#120302) #
I don't know if NFH has any recent (last couple of weeks) shots of Hinske's stance,

Last game I took photographs was May 21/22 against the Nationals, so all my recent stuff comes from that weekend. I still have 15 or so more rolls to process, so there may be some Hinske batting in there, but I don't remember shooting any.

Pistol - Wednesday, June 22 2005 @ 02:22 PM EDT (#120308) #
I agree that Hudson should rebound. However, I think it's best if Hill is kept at SS or 2B long term, just because his bat is more valuable there than at 3B. And if Koskie is healthy he's better off at 3B than 1B (of course you could also say he'd be better at the plate as a 1B than 3B since it's less physically demanding at 3B).

I think of Hudson, Adams, and Hill the Jays would most likely get the best return from Hudson (relative to ability). Said another way, the Jays probably value Hill and Adams more than other teams in the league do, especially having invested a 1st rounder in both of them. So if the Jays were to trade one, I'd guess it'd be Hudson.

Jim - Wednesday, June 22 2005 @ 02:44 PM EDT (#120314) #
Adams and Hill are both also cheaper in the near term.
Mike Green - Wednesday, June 22 2005 @ 03:03 PM EDT (#120315) #
The trade market for Hudson vs. Adams would be different. The Jays are a mid-budget team, and conceivably trade with either a small budget or a large budget team. The Jays are able to take on some salary.

Adams might be more attractive to a small budget club because he has 2 and 1/2 years of pre-arb status. Hudson might be more attractive to a large budget club because of his record of proven performance.
Baltimore 9 Toronto 5- Swung into summer, but missed | 25 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.