Batter's Box Interactive Magazine - This Day In Baseball: 23 July 2005

This Day In Baseball: 23 July 2005

Throw strikes. Home plate don't move.
- Satchel Paige

The top four teams in the AL East all lost yesterday. So that didn't accomplish much, did it?

The Twins lost as well, which means that Oakland has now closed to within 1.5 games of the Wild Card.

Trailing 5-1 heading to the ninth, the Braves rallied to send their game with Arizona into extra innings, only to lose in ten. Washington, however, got stomped and abused by Houston. The Braves and Nats remain in a dead heat.

Roger Clemens (6 shutout innings, 10 Ks) - he can't do this much longer, can he? Or even if he can, he probably won't. So pay attention! Because he is utterly incredible and we are unlikely to ever see anything like him again. The man is one of the four or five greatest pitchers who ever lived, a titan, a colossus, a legend, a wizard... I realize nobody likes him very much. But nobody could stand Ted Williams either, at least until he stopped playing.

And those of you who remember the remarkable and unforgettable Nolan Ryan... Nolan Ryan is to Roger Clemens what Joe Carter is to Ted Williams. There is no comparison.

Houston, by the way, is now second in the race for the NL Wild Card, 3.5 behind the Atlanta/Washington tag team (one of whom is a division leader, eventually.) Clemens' brilliance was all that team had going for them for the first two months of the season, but here they come. And while Chris Carpenter will almost certainly win the NL Cy Young at this rate, the old guy in Houston has pitched better than anybody else in baseball this year. Even Doc.

Today's games:

AL
Minnesota (Baker 0-1, 3.00) at Detroit (Verlander 0-1, 6.75) 1:05
Seattle (Meche 10-6, 4.72) at Cleveland (Lee 10-4, 3.88) 3:15
Baltimore (Ponson 7-8, 6.04) at Tampa Bay (Kazmir 4-7, 4.33) 6:15
Boston (Miller 2-4, 5.01) at Chicago (Hernandez 7-2, 4.98) 7:05
Toronto (Bush 0-5, 4.89) at Kansas City (Snyder 0-0, 4.15) 7:10
Oakland (Saarloos 5-6, 4.12) at Texas (Rodriguez 2-1, 4.91) 8:05
New York (Brown 4-6, 5.91) at Los Angeles (Santana 4-4, 5.66) 10:05

NL
Los Angeles (Houlton 4-3, 5.64) at New York (Martinez 11-3, 2.60) 3:05
San Diego (Astacio 2-8, 6.08) at Philadelphia (Tejeda 1-2, 3.30) 3:05
Chicago (Williams 2-3, 4.96) at St.Louis (Morris 11-2, 3.12) 3:05
Houston (Backe 8-6, 4.87) at Washington (Armas 4-4, 4.96) 7:05
Colorado (Kim 2-7, 5.25) at Pittsburgh (Williams 7-7, 4.53) 7:05
Milwaukee (Santos 2-10, 3.82) at Cincinnati (Claussen 4-7, 4.22) 7:10
Atlanta (Sosa 5-1, 2.76) at Arizona (Halsey 6-7, 4.11) 9:40
Florida (Beckett 8-6, 3.35) at San Francisco (Hennessey 3-2, 4.54) 10:15

Posted by Magpie on Saturday, July 23 2005 @ 11:00 AM EDT.

This Day In Baseball: 23 July 2005 | 25 comments | Create New Account

The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.

Named For Hank - Saturday, July 23 2005 @ 11:06 AM EDT (#123614) #

I just read a remarkable book called The Teammates by David Halberstam that showed at least three guys actually liked Ted Williams.

Jim - Saturday, July 23 2005 @ 11:14 AM EDT (#123615) #

A group of coworkers and I make over/under wagers based on the lines set in Vegas before the season.

I have never been more adament about one then Oakland going over 78 wins. I've been taking heat for months about how bad they had played.

Today they stand 1.5 games out of the Wild Card and I certainly think they have a better team then Minnesota, Cleveland or Baltimore. If they can find a way to outpace the team that loses the NY/Bos battle I will build a shrine to the genius Billy Beane in my home. Beane is to GMs what Barry Bonds has been to players over the last decade. Head and shoulders above his peers.

Plenty of moves on their own seem questionable, but the overall job he has done in Oakland is mind-boggling. Obviously he didn't do it all by himself, but he certainly has survived the loss of Fuson, DePodesta, Riccardi, etc.

Dr. Zarco - Saturday, July 23 2005 @ 01:09 PM EDT (#123621) #

I bet it's not very often that there are two games in late July that feature winless pitchers facing each other. Min vs. Det and the Jays vs. KC. It looks like someone's getting their first win today! Just let it be Bush...

Braby21 - Saturday, July 23 2005 @ 02:17 PM EDT (#123624) #

I'm sure with the luck that these pitchers have that they will all end up w/o a win by the nights end.

Mick Doherty - Saturday, July 23 2005 @ 02:32 PM EDT (#123626) #

Beane is to GMs what Barry Bonds has been to players over the last decade. Head and shoulders above his peers.

True. And worth noting that they have the same number of championship rings. Zero. That says more about a GM than a team's superstar, I think.

Mike D - Saturday, July 23 2005 @ 02:49 PM EDT (#123628) #

ESPN is reporting that the Orioles have agreed to send Sidney Ponson to San Diego for Phil Nevin, but since the O's are on Nevin's limited no-trade list, he has to agree to it. He's expected to take a couple of days to decide.

Baltimore is apparently simply desperate to get rid of Ponson. They tried shipping him to Tampa Bay in a straight-up salary dump for Trever Miller, according to the article, but he refused to go to T-Bay.

Jim - Saturday, July 23 2005 @ 02:53 PM EDT (#123629) #

I would agree. GM's don't play on a level playing field. Some might say the same about players, but resources are resources.

Mike Green - Saturday, July 23 2005 @ 03:17 PM EDT (#123631) #

From yesterday's Globe and Mail: The Bridgeport Bluefish of the Atlantic League added RHP Brad Cornett to their roster. Those were the days, my friend...

Lefty - Saturday, July 23 2005 @ 03:48 PM EDT (#123632) #

Nevin is in the Pads line-up. He took a base on ball in his first AB today.

The Pads did aquire Joe Randa though. We will recall the Randa was the reported object of the Twins affections most of the season.

So does this increase the chances that the Twins will become more interested in one Eric The Dude Hinske?

CaramonLS - Saturday, July 23 2005 @ 03:58 PM EDT (#123633) #

Bull Mick.

Is it Billy's fault that this team doesn't have the financial resources to keep it the current core of players?

CaramonLS - Saturday, July 23 2005 @ 04:00 PM EDT (#123634) #

Lefty, rumor has it that they also want to Acquire Bill Mueller from the Sox, and that there is a trade possibly in the works (Crain maybe going the other way), and Youkilis moves to 3rd.

sweat - Saturday, July 23 2005 @ 04:57 PM EDT (#123637) #

Bill Mueller for Crain would be an amazing deal for Boston, and would make me more than a little upset with JP. The Jays have 3 guys that could fit in at 3b for Minny(eric, koskie and shea). I can't imagine the twins want Eric and his salary. But Shea or Koskie are guys they would want.

CaramonLS - Saturday, July 23 2005 @ 05:06 PM EDT (#123638) #

Jul 21 The South Florida Sun-Sentinel and The Minneapolis Star-Tribune are both reporting a three-way deal among the Minnesota Twins, Florida Marlins and Boston Red Sox was scuttled on July 20. In the deal, the Twins would have gotten Red Sox 3B Bill Mueller and prospects for sending SP Joe Mays to the Marlins and RP J.C. Romero to the Red Sox. Boston would have picked up SP A.J. Burnett and 3B Mike Lowell from the Marlins, and Florida would have gotten SP Bronson Arroyo from Boston. Twins officials denied that such a deal had been in the works.

Also another rumored Bill Mueller deal.

Jim - Saturday, July 23 2005 @ 05:47 PM EDT (#123640) #

If the Sox can get Crain and JP sits on Hillenbrand that is a terrible job.

Mick Doherty - Saturday, July 23 2005 @ 06:01 PM EDT (#123641) #

Is it Billy's fault that this team doesn't have the financial resources to keep it the current core of players?

Of course not. But you've changed the comparison I was making -- Beane to Bonds -- to an entirely different one, Beane to all other GMs. I stand by what I wrote.

James W - Saturday, July 23 2005 @ 06:09 PM EDT (#123642) #

Verlander didn't start for the Tigers today, Sean Douglass did, and improved his record to 3-0. But hopefully Mr. Bush gets win #1 on the season tonight.

Named For Hank - Saturday, July 23 2005 @ 06:17 PM EDT (#123643) #

If the Sox can get Crain and JP sits on Hillenbrand that is a terrible job.

Assuming that the Twins want Hillenbrand and not, say, Hill.

Jim - Saturday, July 23 2005 @ 06:40 PM EDT (#123646) #

If the Sox get Crain for Mueller, then what the Hill have to do with anything?

Although I've heard a lot more about it being JC Romero today (ESPN - Sportscenter).

Named For Hank - Saturday, July 23 2005 @ 07:44 PM EDT (#123647) #

If the Sox get Crain for Mueller, then what the Hill have to do with anything?

I was responding to this:

If the Sox can get Crain and JP sits on Hillenbrand that is a terrible job.

Is the implication of this sentence not that he should have tried to trade Hillenbrand for Crain? And my response to that is that the Twins would probably want the best player playing third base for the Jays right now. Why would they settle?

Jim - Saturday, July 23 2005 @ 10:57 PM EDT (#123652) #

I was referring to the Red Sox getting Crain for Bill Mueller.

In my opinion they would settle for Mueller over Hillenbrand. Obviously Aaron Hill isn't available, certainly not for a relief pitcher.

I think that Hillenbrand at this point is more valuable to Mueller and if Theo pulls that deal off and JP sits on Hillenbrand that is a huge mistake. Unless for some reason Terry Ryan likes Mueller better, which he might I guess, but I think the majority would rather have Hillenbrand's next 2 months over Mueller's.

Jefftown - Saturday, July 23 2005 @ 11:41 PM EDT (#123654) #

Both Douglass and Verlander started for the Tigers tonight in a day-night double-header.

Named For Hank - Sunday, July 24 2005 @ 10:35 AM EDT (#123661) #

In my opinion they would settle for Mueller over Hillenbrand. Obviously Aaron Hill isn't available, certainly not for a relief pitcher.

So the Twins have no interest at all in Aaron Hill? I'm not suggesting that the Jays would trade Hill, I'm saying that if Adam Peterson was worth Shea Hillenbrand then Crain will be worth more.

Jim - Sunday, July 24 2005 @ 02:39 PM EDT (#123676) #

No one will probably even see this.

Of course the Twins would take Hill over Hillenbrand. That has nothing to do with anything being discussed at the trade deadline.

The Twins clearly need help in the infield. The rumor was Crain for Mueller. Mueller is not a better player then Hillenbrand. Therefore if they were willing to take Mueller for him, then they should be willing to take Hillenbrand for him.

The Jays have an extra infielder, they could certainly use the upgrade in the bullpen. It's a trade that would help them in 2005 and in the future. It's such a no-brainer that I'm 99% certain that Minnesota wasn't really going to trade Crain for Mueller at any point. It was just a silly rumor.

By your logic in this thread there is no way the Jays could trade Ted Lilly because anyone you called would ask for Halladay - because they would rather have him.

Named For Hank - Sunday, July 24 2005 @ 06:13 PM EDT (#123688) #

By your logic in this thread there is no way the Jays could trade Ted Lilly because anyone you called would ask for Halladay - because they would rather have him.

No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that we've seen what Hillenbrand will fetch in a trade, and it's not Crain.

Jim - Sunday, July 24 2005 @ 07:41 PM EDT (#123700) #

A player's worth in a future trade isn't determined by how he was valued in prior deals.

Arizona had no leverage, it was clear they didn't want to pay Hillenbrand and wouldn't have offered him arbitation and would have gotten nothing for him. They decided that Peterson was better then nothing.

Here in 2005, the Twins are tied for the wild-card lead and just called up Terry Tiffee. Hillenbrand is a huge upgrade on Tiffee. I agree that Crain is more valuable then the difference between those two players. My point remains that if Epstein can get Crain for Mueller - then JP probably held onto Hillenbrand when he should have made a deal.

I don't think they'll get Crain for Mueller, and I don't think the Jays could get Crain for Hillenbrand. If they COULD and don't make that deal it's a bigtime mistake.

This Day In Baseball: 23 July 2005 | 25 comments | Create New Account

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