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Ok, enough with the Indians.

Bring on the Rangers!


It looks like the trip to the DL did some good for Glaus. He seems to be moving much better and he's 6 for his last 12, including 2 doubles and 2 HRs.

The future is now? Hill leading off, Lind hitting second. We'll see it that continues with a full lineup.

I know he's the 25 man on the roster, but Jason Smith isn't cutting. He's 1 for his last 19 with 9 Ks. If he's not going to play in the OF he's redundant with John McDonald on the team.

04 May 2007: Cleveland Rocks | 54 comments | Create New Account
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Manhattan Mike - Friday, May 04 2007 @ 08:57 AM EDT (#167207) #

And why have him play the outfield when you have Matt Stairs filling that role.

Then again, the fact that he can play pretty much anywhere and there's no obvious replacement for him in Syracuse makes me wonder whether there's any real advantage of cutting him loose at this point. Unless, of course, you think that Roberts, Griffin or Adams is ready to come up for good, which I don't. Or you're president of the Chad Mottola fan club, which I'm not.

 

Mike Green - Friday, May 04 2007 @ 09:51 AM EDT (#167213) #
Other contenders for the 25th man slot include Rey Olmedo and Wayne Lydon.  I personally would rather have Olmedo as my starting shortstop on the big club right now, with Clayton gone.  I would also rather have Lydon as the 25th man than Smith.  Matt Stairs is trying hard out there, but he's an emergency outfielder not a 4th outfielder.  These changes might happen eventually, but not likely now.
Ryan Day - Friday, May 04 2007 @ 09:53 AM EDT (#167214) #
I'd dump Smith and bring up Wayne Lydon. He might not hit much better (could he hit worse?), but he'd at least give the team something it's currently missing: A legitimate fourth outfielder and a good pinch runner.
Maldoff - Friday, May 04 2007 @ 09:56 AM EDT (#167216) #
This year's Jays club is awfully reminiscent of last year's Indians club.  A good, young offensive team. Mediocre starting pitching. Losing a lot of close games while winning blowouts. Bullpen falling apart. Pythag's must indicate this also (but I don't know where to look those up).
Andrew Ward - Friday, May 04 2007 @ 10:17 AM EDT (#167217) #
I am a bit puzzled as to why there are recommendations to have Hill hit lead-off. Why would you put your RBI leader in a spot that limits his ability to drive in runs?
Any thoughts on Frasor getting sent back to AAA?
Mike Green - Friday, May 04 2007 @ 10:18 AM EDT (#167218) #
Here you go, Maldoff.  The Jays are indeed +13 in RS/RA and have 15 projected wins.  The Indians after two years of losing big to Ol' Man Pythagoras are up on him +3.  That's undoubtedly due to the stellar contributions of Joe Borowski rather than a change in fortune!  It was the mere presence of Borowski on the bench that guided Hafner's opposite-field game winner the day before yesterday.

I agreed with Chuck that the time was ripe yesterday to send Marcum down, and I might be his biggest fan.  Gibbons stuck with him, and it paid off.  The biggest issue with him has been the location of his changeup, which can be an effective out pitch against left-handed hitters.  It's got to be down or in.  Yesterday it was.  Props to Gibbons for sticking with him.

tr0mbone - Friday, May 04 2007 @ 10:20 AM EDT (#167219) #
According to Baseball-Reference: (you can see the predicted record on the team page)

Scored 144 runs, Allowed 131 runs. Pythagorean W-L: 15-13

We are 4 games below our predicted level at this point. The Jays are 3-7 in one run games.

Pistol - Friday, May 04 2007 @ 10:24 AM EDT (#167221) #
BP's adjusted standings have the Jays at 3.6 wins below expectations.
Four Seamer - Friday, May 04 2007 @ 10:31 AM EDT (#167222) #

On the Fan 590 yesterday morning, Zaun had some interesting comments to the effect that the Jays had to do a better job of playing with a lead.  He called out Burnett in particular, saying that once the offence spots him a couple of runs, the pitchers really have to shut the opposition down.  Those are valid points, and games one and three of the Cleveland series are more grist for that particular mill, what with the team blowing early three and four run leads, respectively. 

But that points to another problem the Jays seem to exhibit from time to time, although perhaps no more than other teams.  After putting up a bunch of early runs, the lineup stops producing - the Jays scored one run in the final 8 innings Tuesday, one in the final six Thursday.  If the team keeps the pedal down, it would take a spectacular pitching meltdown to hand the game away, instead of just an ordinary one.  

Mick Doherty - Friday, May 04 2007 @ 10:34 AM EDT (#167223) #

Bring on the Rangers!

The extremely ticked-off Rangers, incidentally. The only reason they're not totally getting thrown under the bus locally in North Texas is the little matter of the Mavericks Meltdown which is of course dominating sports talk radio and news.

tstaddon - Friday, May 04 2007 @ 11:27 AM EDT (#167226) #
Lydon over Smith as the 25th man would make a huge difference, I think. Stairs is definitely giving it his all out there, but he's just not a defensive outfielder. Plus, having Lydon on the team allows Gibbons to protect Lind from tough lefties without simply subbing in another lefty bat. And Lydon could theoretically hit lead off in those games he plays, no? I'm not expecting brilliance here, but he couldn't be worse offensively than Smith has been. I was actually hoping they'd pinch hit Clayton last night instead of Smith. And if Glaus does get hurt, give Ryan Roberts a legitimate audition for ten games, mixing McDonald in at third the rest of the time. Roberts isn't going to kill you for two weeks.

Frasor doesn't need AAA. He just needs to locate better. Giving Rouse such a hittable pitch in the 8th last night was murder. One suspects he didn't want to start walking people the way he did on Tuesday. But there's got to be a middle ground. I think he'll find it. McGowan showed more promise last night -- just ran into that big inning against a very good team. But when he walked Rouse and Barfield, where were Phillips and Arnsberg? If I'm Gibbons, I want Phillips out there talking to McGowan immediately after he puts Rouse on. Phillips has been everything we could ask for out of a back-up catcher so far -- and hasn't been a terrible defensive liability, even considering the calamity at the plate when Rouse scored last night -- but with a young, historically unsteady arm out there, I would have liked to have seen him go talk the kid down.

Also: Marcum in the middle innings looked great. Leave him there or give him the next chance at the rotation. The rhythm he had going last fall was something we might Never see out of Zambrano. But as it stands, he's HR-prone this year, so keep him out of the late innings and it seems he'll serve you well.
Manhattan Mike - Friday, May 04 2007 @ 01:05 PM EDT (#167229) #

I'm not sure I understand what the attraction is with Wayne Lydon, but I admit I don't know much about him.

What's the big deal with a guy that cannot play the infield (as Smith can) and is a career .260 hitter in the minors, with no major league experience.

Is the idea here that management just needs to light a fire under the team's collective butt?

Mike Green - Friday, May 04 2007 @ 01:48 PM EDT (#167231) #
The idea is to actually make the bench more useful. They've got McDonald and Smith as backup infielders and Stairs as a backup outfielder.  McDonald is competent with the glove, and Stairs is not.  Lydon would fill the 4th outfielder role satisfactorily (he'd probably hit .235/.310/.380 or so in limited at-bats and be an above-average defender), and be useful as a pinch-runner.
Ryan Day - Friday, May 04 2007 @ 01:49 PM EDT (#167232) #
Lydon's not a superstar or anything, but his minor league numbers say he can get on base all right, steal some bases, and play decent defence at all three outfield spots. Considering the Jays' fourth "outfielder" is currently Matt Stairs, and that Jason Smith is a backup infielder who a) doesn't field as well as McDonald and b) doesn't even hit as well as McDonald usually does, Lydon could be a useful guy to have on the bench.
Pistol - Friday, May 04 2007 @ 02:21 PM EDT (#167234) #
Here's an odd stat - The Jays don't have a pitcher with an ERA between 2.28 and 5.02.
robertdudek - Friday, May 04 2007 @ 03:07 PM EDT (#167236) #
Marcum has 19 K and 5 W in 14 IP.

You don't EVER send a guy like that down.

For small sample sizes, Im a big believer in peripheral stats over and above R and ER.
jeff mcl - Friday, May 04 2007 @ 05:46 PM EDT (#167240) #
With a gucky 3-5 in the rotation--well, let's hope just 4,5 now that McGowan's up--our Jays just can't reel off a 20-win month and need to steadily chip away, at least 3-5  games over .500 per month.   The Bosox are playing like a team that's going to end up winning 100 games and the Yankees will mount their inevitable surge, so something has to be done pretty f'n soon in BlueJayland or the discussion will turn to what's to be done for 2008.   Something drastic...

If this were a talented hockey team in similarly dire straits, the head coach would fired...

ChicagoJaysFan - Friday, May 04 2007 @ 07:27 PM EDT (#167242) #
I don't think it's time to send Marcum down for the same reason I said promote McGowan - there are no relievers in AAA right now, Marcum is already essentially an injury call-up.

However, his ratios are not a reason to keep him up.  K/BB is fine, but you cannot keep ignoring HR/9, especially considering that we're dealing with a small data set and his bad HR/9 is more in-line with his last year's HR/9 (60% higher) than his current K/BB ratio is in-line with his last year's K/BB ratio (122% higher).  2.6 HR/9 is much worse than the average (around 1 HR/9 this year) and does not lead to success at all.

Dave Till - Friday, May 04 2007 @ 08:03 PM EDT (#167245) #
When I thought about it, I realized that the Jays are playing exactly as well as could be expected, given that they've lost their closer and their primary setup man, and have a hole or two in the back of their starting rotation. Frasor, Marcum, and the cast of thousands are being asked to fill roles they weren't originally intended to fill.

Ditto for Matt Stairs: the Jays were expecting to have a regular starting outfield of Johnson, Wells and Rios, all of whom are excellent defenders. Since they were all expected to play virtually every day, the Jays figured that an extra bat could come in handy. Who knew that Sparky would need back surgery?

McGowan looks to be this close to being a successful major league starting pitcher. For a couple of innings in there, he was easily retiring the Indians. One problem is that his curve ball breaks so sharply that it drops out of the strike zone - patient hitters who can recognize the pitch in time and lay off it can force McGowan to bring his fastball. He struck out at least one hitter on a changeup - if he can reliably throw that pitch for a strike when needed, he won't have to depend on his curve as an alternative to his fastball.

Odd little stat: between them, Royce Clayton and John MacDonald have 13 doubles. In a little over a month. Cool.

GregJP - Friday, May 04 2007 @ 08:58 PM EDT (#167246) #
Pat "genius" Tabler thinks that it's not so important that you make the all star game, but what's MOST important is how well you do in the game.

He believes that the fact that Young and Blalock were MVP's at all star games means that they are extra specially great players.

Pat, I have extremely low expectations listening to you, but so far this year you are under performing even those. 

robertdudek - Friday, May 04 2007 @ 09:32 PM EDT (#167248) #
JP on Ryan and economizing on the truth:

"First of all it wasn't BJ Ryan's back that was bothering him it was his elbow that was bothering him, we said it was his back so he could have a little bit more time,"

"There are a lot of things we do not tell the media, because the media does not need to know it and the fans do not need to know it. Because there are a lot of things that happen that if you let it play out it ends up solving itself and if you just bring attention to it then a lot is made out of things that don't end up being a big deal."

"It's not lies if we know the truth."


In the immortal words of a Geico caveman commercial:

- Response?
- Yah, I have a response: What?!


robertdudek - Friday, May 04 2007 @ 09:40 PM EDT (#167249) #
the Jays were expecting to have a regular starting outfield of Johnson, Wells and Rios, all of whom are excellent defenders. Since they were all expected to play virtually every day,

What is the chance of a team having the same three outfielders play virtually every day for the whole season?

Guys get little nagging injuries and the 4th outfielder almost inevitably ends up getting 400 PA. To not expect this is bad planning.
Mike Green - Friday, May 04 2007 @ 11:26 PM EDT (#167254) #
Rey Olmedo had another big day for Syracuse, reaching base 4 times in 4 tries.   His OBP now sits at .383.  He is a fairly recent convert to  switch-hitting (he was originally a right-handed hitter).  He now may be able to hit left-handed better, and so this opens up some platoon possibilities for him. 
Ryan Day - Friday, May 04 2007 @ 11:45 PM EDT (#167259) #
Having Stairs as a fourth outfielder made sense when your three starting outfielders were very good defenders - you could stick Stairs in left without much damage and play Rios in centre and Sparky in right (or whatever). That's not going to kill the team if it happens once every week or two.

It's only really been a problem since Johnson went down: Ricciardi was, in fact, able to adequately replace a starting outfielder, but Adam Lind can only play left. I don't want to see a Lind-Rios-Stairs outfield any more than absolutely necessary.

The outfield was set up decently to start the season. And while Ricciardi did have a replacement ready, he hasn't yet dealt with the ripple effects.
China fan - Saturday, May 05 2007 @ 12:06 AM EDT (#167262) #

   The latest quotes from Ricciardi are proof of what I've always said:   he routinely lies about injuries.  Last year he lied abour Burnett and Rios, and this year he lied about Ryan.    It betrays a lack of respect for the fans.  In fact he has an arrogance that verges on contempt for the fans.   If he lies about injuries, what else is he lying about?   That's all very well when the team is winning, but it will backfire on him very badly when the team is losing.   If the fans feel that he is misleading them and manipulating them, they'll desert him in droves when the team has another disappointing year.

ChicagoJaysFan - Saturday, May 05 2007 @ 12:15 AM EDT (#167263) #
I don't really mind their lies. 

I think all GM's lie about just about everything to the media, so I expect it more than anything else.  I think a lot of it stems from fans/media asking questions beyond their business and getting upset with no response.  We hate lies and cliches but essentially demand either cliches or lies through our actions.

When you think about it, what right do the Jays have to tell the public what one of their employee's injury is?  That is an inherent breach of trust/privacy with the player.  I admit, I'm always curious to find out what it is, but think about what that extends to.  If they have to be honest about injuries, that also means that eventually they'll have to come clean about the private injuries/diseases (for hockey fans, think of Phil Kessel's testicular cancer being revealed to the public).  If those are two different scenarios for some people, unfortunately, the only way to attempt to respect an athlete's privacy with the "big" injuries (i.e. cancer) is to conceal the other ones (otherwise a response of "I can't tell you what's wrong with him" becomes rather indicative of the possibilities).

Also, how do they benefit when responding to questions about whether or not someone is on the trade block?  That can distract the player and doesn't do much for his private life either.

Again, I place myself in the blame as I always speculate and am interested to hear about injuries and trades, but I don't consider it a PR problem for the GM's when they get caught in this.
robertdudek - Saturday, May 05 2007 @ 12:26 AM EDT (#167264) #
When you think about it, what right do the Jays have to tell the public what one of their employee's injury is?  That is an inherent breach of trust/privacy with the player.

We are the customers and the "product" we are buying is baseball played by baseball players. I think we have an interest in knowing which players are hurt and what their injuries are, as it impacts on the "product" we are consuming.

If you don't want to disclose an injury, don't disclose it. Say, BJ Ryan was put on the disabled list with "an upper body injury" or a "lower body injury" like the Mickey-Mouse NHL does.

But don't make up lies and have the media spread them. That is contemptible.


jamesq - Saturday, May 05 2007 @ 12:32 AM EDT (#167265) #
I can see the rationale of hiding player injuries in the context of protecting the player from opponent players looking to target their injuries. However baseball is not hockey, football, basketball, where physical contact is common.  I just do not understand why they would lie and disrespect the fans of the ballclub.  We fans too are stakeholders, like  GMs , managers,  and players who come and go.  I am quite annoyed at JP's comment, but given his history of  off the cuff,  inflammatory comments,  I'm not surprised.
ChicagoJaysFan - Saturday, May 05 2007 @ 12:47 AM EDT (#167267) #
Robert,

By that logic, companies have every right to demand professional services firms disclose long-term illnesses of their employees.  (In other words, a consulting firm should tell its clients if one of its consultants has cancer).

That's something that we've agreed upon as a society (through privacy laws) is not right.

I don't think it's as easy to say that teams don't have to disclose injuries if they don't want to.  Then fans think they've been betrayed (as has been implied by terms like "stakeholder" and "interest").  They're damned if they don't disclose (customers start to demand they have a right to know) or damned if they do disclose (they betray their employees' rights to privacy).  The only way that they succeed in such a scenario is to lie to the media - they have committed no crimes (they do claim the player is injured and unavailable and always claim that recovery can take longer than expected so no one has ever spent money on the team as a result of these lies), betrayed no expected rights of privacy, and more often than not, leave customers happy.

Again, I don't like being lied to, but I also realize that fans/media have left all teams no choice, so I don't blame them for something I've had a hand in forcing them to do.
robertdudek - Saturday, May 05 2007 @ 12:51 AM EDT (#167268) #
You would actually prefer, as a fan, to be lied to rather than told "we can't disclose the nature of the injury"?

I don't think you and I live in the same moral universe.


ChicagoJaysFan - Saturday, May 05 2007 @ 12:59 AM EDT (#167269) #
Robert - I actually think you're simplifying the argument.

I believe that people have a problem finding out that they've been lied to, not in the actual lie itself.  These are inherently two different things.

Are you saying that you don't enjoy being able to speculate on McGowan's future with the TJ history?  Or wonder what could have happened with Rosario were it not for his TJ?

Those are potential lies.  I'm not 100% certain that they told the truth.  But having that to play around with does actually add to my enjoyment and I'm willing to bet that most people, when they remove the emotion from such a decision.

As an aside, I do not appreciate it when people accuse me (directly or indirectly) of immorality.  I don't always appreciate being lied to (that's an obvious statement), but to generalize as you did is completely uncalled for, especially considering that it's not such an absolute as you are trying to state.
jamesq - Saturday, May 05 2007 @ 01:03 AM EDT (#167270) #
Since when is a pitcher with an elbow injury a situation where management must  weigh whether an honest  press release or a dishonest press release is needed in order to protect a   ballplayer's right to privacy.     I suppose i could accept that a non baseball related illness might require sensitivity , however in this case I believe it was unnecessary cause pitchers get elbow injuries (a job related hazard) and jp's recent comments on it  bordering on disrespectful.  
robertdudek - Saturday, May 05 2007 @ 01:06 AM EDT (#167271) #
By that logic, companies have every right to demand professional services firms disclose long-term illnesses of their employees.  (In other words, a consulting firm should tell its clients if one of its consultants has cancer).

If it has an impact on the service I receive, then yes. If not, then no. But if it negatively impacts the performance, said employee should be on disability leave, and it becomes a non-issue because said employee is not doing any work on my behalf.

And wouldn't you be upset if a consulting firm ending up doing substandard work for you because the employee put in charge was mentally unbalanced (and the company knew about it)?

BJ Ryan was on the active roster, and they LIED about the type of injury. Why they did that is still beyond me, because I don't see how it helped them at all.

Deliberately making false statements is far far worse than keeping your mouth shut.

And I don't this stuff about the fans and media demands forcing teams to lie about injuries. "No comment" is an expression used in such circumstances.




robertdudek - Saturday, May 05 2007 @ 01:16 AM EDT (#167272) #
So are you saying you don't mind being lied to as long as you never find out?

I'm having trouble discerning your stance on this.

If the Jays are to release any information to the public, it should be devoid of blatant lies. We expect that it will be spun to their benefit, but no one likes blatant lies. And invariably, when blatant lies eventually come to light, there is a far greater negative reaction to them than there would have been had the truth been told from the outset.

I still say you and I live in different moral universes. Why on earth you would think that in saying so I've indirectly accused you of being immoral is beyond me.

I value truthfulness, and saying "BJ Ryan has an undisclosed injury" is truthful; saying "BJ Ryan has a bad back" when he in fact has a sore elbow is a blatant lie. And yes, it is that black and white. No one forced JP to lie about BJ's condition. It wasn't some sort of white lie designed to avoid hurting someone's feelings unnecesarily.


pjfreshphil - Saturday, May 05 2007 @ 01:59 AM EDT (#167273) #
Do we really believe that JP would lie about an injury to protect a player's privacy?  I think this is a PR move only.  The Jays have been releasing a lot of bad news of late and I think any injury related (or otherwise) lies comming from Blue Jay brass has simply to do with damage control and very little to do with player privacy.  JP doesn't hesitate to reveal the full nature of Chris Carpenter's injuries when asked why he "let him go".  If he truely was concerned with privacy he would protect it in these cases as well.

That fact that he came clean about lieing was just more PR.  "He's being honest now so he must be a good guy, right".

Not that I blame him for the lie.  The last thing the Jays need is more bad news.  Jays fans are a pretty fare weather lot and he is only trying to protect interest in the team (and fan support for him).  Still don't like the creapy vibe this is giving me though.
Four Seamer - Saturday, May 05 2007 @ 10:55 AM EDT (#167278) #

My response to this latest imbroglio is the same as it was during l'affaires Hillenbrand and Lilly last year.  These things never would have happened when Paul Beeston and Pat Gillick ran the show, or at least if they had, there would have been serious repercussions for the delinquents involved.  The Jays used to be a class organization.  I'm not sure exactly when that ceased - whether it was the Interbrew regime or the current one - but they aren't any more, that's for sure.  And as someone who has been a fan of the team for 25 years, it's terribly disappointing.

I think Ted Rogers needs to clean house - Godfrey, Ricciardi and Gibbons should all be relieved of their duties.

laketrout - Saturday, May 05 2007 @ 11:48 AM EDT (#167284) #
It also bothers me that JP would lie about an injury and not just the extent of an injury but what the injury actually is.  If he doesn't want the public or other teams to know the extent of an injury then do not specify what the injury is.  Don't say Ryan is out because of a bad back when it's his elbow and don't tell us League is out from over-working his shoulder when it's a rotator cuff tear (over-muscled shoulders don't require surgery, rotator cuff injuries do).
VBF - Saturday, May 05 2007 @ 12:08 PM EDT (#167287) #
Meh.

JP can do whatever he wants as long as it doesn't hurt the team. All I care about is that the best doctors and staff are taking care of everyone right now. We're fans, we're not entitled to this information.

AWeb - Saturday, May 05 2007 @ 01:45 PM EDT (#167293) #
Wow, people take being bald faced lied to a lot better than me.  I can understand a lie if it's a clear benefit to the organization, but JP lied to the fans for no apparent reason other than he could. That makes him a LIAR. From now on, whenever the club releases information about anything, it's questionable.

If JP says there's no more money, we can reasonably say "I doubt it, they're just being cheap". Because they have a lying track record now.
Whenever a player goes down with an injury, we can speculate wildly on what it might be, since the information we usually go on is now demonstrably unreliable. For instance, has Wells really been out with Flu? What if it's something else? What if he has mono, and will be out for the year?
Maybe Chacin's injury is a lot worse than they have said.

I don't see how establishing yourself as a liar can do anything but increase the amount that fans will worry about everything. I haven't been agreeing with many of the moves they've made this year, but this really clinches it for me. Wasn't the manager fired for telling lies only a few years ago? Time for this administration to go.
VBF - Saturday, May 05 2007 @ 01:58 PM EDT (#167294) #
I don't see how establishing yourself as a liar can do anything but increase the amount that fans will worry about everything.

Why should they care? If I'm a GM, I could give a rats ass what people say. What matters is the product on the field and that the proper measures are taken to ensure a safe recovery for the injured players.

If people decide that they no longer want to support a team that has a GM that "lied" about an elbow injury by saying it was a back injury, well then I feel sorry for those people. Actually on that note, anybody who doesn't support their local hometown team because of any GM, is simply a fool to begin with.

This incident should have little or no impact on one's fandom. Period.
Lefty - Saturday, May 05 2007 @ 02:12 PM EDT (#167295) #

Phew, I'm relieved. Here i thought Ryan had elbow problems and a bad back. ;-)

Something about Ricciardi and how he conducts himself has always bothered me. That put me offside with the former management of this site. Somebody said it earlier. This was a classy organization. One that dispite being in Canada was respected.

The hands on the Ricciardi doomsday clock have been moved forward again. 

Gibby better watch himself as he could be carried of to the sacrificial alter as a distraction.

 

Lefty - Saturday, May 05 2007 @ 02:20 PM EDT (#167296) #

If people decide that they no longer want to support an administration that has a President that "lied" about weapons of mass detruction by saying it was a threat to our homes and the very fabric of our nation, well then I feel sorry for those people. Actually on that note, anybody who doesn't support their Administration  team because of any President, is simply a fool to begin with.

Sorry VBF, just a little fun with propoganda and embelishment. ;-)



 

robertdudek - Saturday, May 05 2007 @ 02:40 PM EDT (#167297) #
Why should they care? If I'm a GM, I could give a rats ass what people say. What matters is the product on the field and that the proper measures are taken to ensure a safe recovery for the injured players.

There's one other thing that matters - the amount of money fans spends to see live and the number watching on TV. Surely, having a GM with such contempt for the fans can't be good for business.
robertdudek - Saturday, May 05 2007 @ 02:54 PM EDT (#167298) #
Actually on that note, anybody who doesn't support their local hometown team because of any GM, is simply a fool to begin with.

Actually, anyone who supports his local team regardless of how that team is run, is simply a fool to begin with.
AWeb - Saturday, May 05 2007 @ 04:46 PM EDT (#167304) #
Toronto is not my hometown team. I'm from Canada, but in no way am I obliged to support the Jays. I can purchase MLBtv and follow any team I want to. There's no reason I have to watch baseball at all, actually. If the team is being run poorly, and tops it off by showing disrespect to the fans (and yes, lying to me is disrespecting me), that's another reason not to watch.

Ricciardi has made himself the spokesman for the franchise by being a very outspoken and public GM, and has clearly dictated strategy and roster usage at times. I have no problem with any of that. But by taking on that role, he's assumed the responsibility for what he says becoming the voice of the franchise. He didn't "lie", he LIED (note the lack of sarcastic quotes).  Again, I don't think anyone would have a problem is he just refused to comment. But he chose to lie instead. Tim Johnson was fired for lying to the public and his team in 1999. Ricciardi's offense isn't quite that bad, but it still looks terrible to me. It makes Ricciardi look awful, and makes the Jays look bad as a result.
Four Seamer - Saturday, May 05 2007 @ 06:57 PM EDT (#167310) #
You can call me a fool if you like, VBF, but I've spent the last dollar I'm going to spend on this team for as long as Ricciardi is the GM.  My entertainment dollars are scarce; I'm giving them to organizations that respect their customers, not show contempt for them.
timpinder - Saturday, May 05 2007 @ 07:23 PM EDT (#167314) #

I really don't care that Ricciardi lied.  People lie all the time, and I don't take it personally.  I just wish I could understand why.  It's the stupidity of the whole thing.  If J.P. was trying to deal Ryan, then at least he'd have a motive for lying.  In contact sports, there's some logic behind lying about the location of an injury.  But what purpose does it serve to lie about the location or severity of Ryan's injury?  It's not like another team could take advantage of the situation by targeting the elbow!  The only thing I can think of right now that makes sense is if the Jays were trying to deal for bullpen help at the time, and Ricciardi was concerned that if the team they were talking to learned of the severity of Ryan's injury they could demand more from the Jays.

Anyway, I'm much more frustrated with Ricciardi over his use of pitchers this year, and this is the least of my worries. 

CeeBee - Saturday, May 05 2007 @ 09:24 PM EDT (#167323) #
I think we will soon need an in-house doctor what with all the busted legs going on around here. Man, I thought I'd seen it all but maybe the "real" fans all do reside in Chicago. All this strike talk is making me dizzy. I can understand the frustration but maybe expectation's, mine included were too high. Throw in a six pack of injuries and you'd think it was the end of the world as we know it. Oh well, Doc is proving he's not Jesus and  the fill-ins are proving they are not regulars and what the ........ wouldn't you know it. We are in a rough spell. I'm not jumping though. Someone my age could get hurt doing that so I'll just watch the farm system for the next savior who really can't be too far away.
VBF - Saturday, May 05 2007 @ 09:37 PM EDT (#167324) #
Actually, anyone who supports his local team regardless of how that team is run, is simply a fool to begin with.

Yes, God forbid we, you know, support a team during a time of bad management--a team that benefits the local economy and tourism industry in the city. I believe with this philosophy, you get the current state of Major League Baseball in Montreal.


AWeb - Saturday, May 05 2007 @ 10:09 PM EDT (#167325) #
Yes, God forbid we, you know, support a team during a time of bad management--a team that benefits the local economy and tourism industry in the city. I believe with this philosophy, you get the current state of Major League Baseball in Montreal.

Hey, at least we agree the management has been bad. If the Dome was occasionally shedding 50 ton beams, the roof wouldn't close, the owner(s) threaten several times a year to move the team forever all the while saying the current ball park is terrible and no one should even like going there, a strike interruputs the greatest team in franchise history, then you get to MLB in Montreal.

It's clear there's a basic difference of opinion and personal importance of the Jays here. I would never claim you shouldn't  "support the team", but for many, they have to earn that support through their actions and performance. I can cheer for a sports team based in any city at this point.

Say I'm an opera fan, and the local company has a star soprano. Just before the season of shows starts, the producers announce that this singer has a bad back might not perform as well for a few weeks. "fine", I tell myself, "I'll get the season tickets anyway, and enjoy her performances the rest of the year". Two weeks later, after suffering through a couple of poorly sung arias, the producers come out and say "did we say bad back? We meant throat infection...it could be a while, sorry about those terrible shows where someone else could've done better". I'd be pissed off at the show, and likely demand my money back. This opera company would lose my business in the future. Instead of season tickets, I'll hold off and go to a few shows a year instead, when I know who's performing. And if they had just not lied in the first place, none of it would've been a problem...I like watching the young talent filling in sometimes.
Four Seamer - Saturday, May 05 2007 @ 10:19 PM EDT (#167326) #

Yes, God forbid we, you know, support a team during a time of bad management

Ask Leaf fans how their 40-year plus investment in bad management has worked out for them.

In any event, I'd be curious to see the evidence behind your contention that the Blue Jays are good for the local economy.  All the economic studies I've seen suggest that a local sports team has less impact on the local economy than a typical Wal-Mart.  I'm not in a position to link to any of them at the moment, but if you do a Google search on Andrew Zimbalist, you'll find lots of interesting analysis. 

 

Magpie - Saturday, May 05 2007 @ 10:41 PM EDT (#167328) #
I'm giving them to organizations that respect their customers, not show contempt for them.

I don't believe Ricciardi has contempt for the customers. I don't believe he thinks about them all that much. I don't think he regards it as his job. There are other people he answers to much more directly.

I do think he has a fair bit of contempt for the media, which is who this particular deception was aimed at. Most baseball people do. It's an adversary relationship, with the exception of those few individuals savvy enough to manipulate the media for their own ends (which only works if the manipulated are for the most part unaware of the manipulation.) Some baseball people play the media like a violin.

But I don't think Ricciardi respects them enough to play them. I think he regards them as an adversary, something to overcome and get past. I don't think this is a good idea, but it's the way things are.
VBF - Saturday, May 05 2007 @ 11:06 PM EDT (#167332) #
It's clear there's a basic difference of opinion and personal importance of the Jays here.

I completely agree with that.

I realize that some fans would not sacrifice their integrity and money to support an organization which they believe has bad management, or rather corrupt management. I completely disagree with that, but I find it tolerable. But this team had corruption (See Tim Johnson), bad management, and was headed down a very dark road had it not been for a very solid core of fans who came to the ballpark each day to watch baseball. And to them, all that mattered was that it was baseball and that the name on the front of the jerseys said "Blue Jays". That represented a lifestyle more than a passion or a fandom. Without this core group of fans comprised of season ticket holders and the like, there would be a  chance that baseball in this city would be no more.

The point is that people can do what they please. But when the team is winning and the RC is packed, it wouldn't be so had it not been for these dedicated fools who supported a corrupt organization knowing that things would one day pick up.


robertdudek - Sunday, May 06 2007 @ 10:00 PM EDT (#167362) #
I don't believe Ricciardi has contempt for the customers. I don't believe he thinks about them all that much. I don't think he regards it as his job. There are other people he answers to much more directly.

Then why does he go on a radio program, if it's not part of his job? Pat Gillick never had a weekly call-in segment.

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