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Tigers get Cabrera and Willis for Maybin, Miller and several other minor leaguers.

In Jays news it sounds like there hasn't been much movement in a SF trade for Lincecum or Cain. More details are here.

The Jays also have interest in Paul LoDuca, apparently at a salary that would be around $2.5 million for one year. As mentioned earlier, a job sharing arrangement with Zaun for those terms is a solid plan.

Winter Meetings - Wednesday | 67 comments | Create New Account
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Mike Green - Wednesday, December 05 2007 @ 09:19 AM EST (#177045) #
Whether or not this is a good trade for the Tigers, it definitely illustrates the return on the small investment of paying over slot money for draft picks.
Paul D - Wednesday, December 05 2007 @ 09:23 AM EST (#177046) #

Blue Jays named best defence in baseball, according to Dewan.

All of this makes me nervous about trading Rios.  He's not just a solid corner outfielder, he's a gold glove caliber corner who can play a good centre.

Chuck - Wednesday, December 05 2007 @ 09:24 AM EST (#177047) #

I'm still dumbfounded at how underappreciated Miguel Cabrera is. Three straight seasons of an OPS+ of 150 or better and he's only 24. His top four comps are/will be Hall of Famers: Aaron, Griffey, Frank Robinson, Cepeda.

Let's hope he doesn't eat his way to a prematurely short career. He's got all the ability in the world to be an inner circle Hall of Famer.

Chuck - Wednesday, December 05 2007 @ 09:28 AM EST (#177048) #
Blue Jays named best defence in baseball, according to Dewan.

Something to keep in mind when evaluating the team's pitching. They got a lot of help in 2007.
Bones - Wednesday, December 05 2007 @ 09:35 AM EST (#177049) #
Great point, Chuck.  Especially when considering the performance of guys the don't miss many bats (i.e. put lots of balls in play).  If the Jays do weaken their defense in any way, then guys like Janssen, Litsch, and even Marcum could be in for a long year.  Even (attention: blasphemy alert!) Halladay could see a downturn in performance, although he gets a lot of GBs, so he's not as reliant on his OF defense as the other 3 guys are.
Pistol - Wednesday, December 05 2007 @ 09:49 AM EST (#177050) #
Whether it's a good long term trade or not is up in the air, but the TIgers just added two players to their team without sacrificing anyone from their 2007 squad.
Chuck - Wednesday, December 05 2007 @ 10:04 AM EST (#177051) #
Nate Silver tempers my lovin' for Miguel Cabrera.
Mike Green - Wednesday, December 05 2007 @ 10:15 AM EST (#177052) #
Marcum's K rate has been about as high over his minor and major league career as McGowan's, although it was a little lower last year.  McGowan gets more ground balls and walks more. 

According to the Fielding Bible, the Jays' ground ball defence last year was exceptional.  That would mean Halladay, Burnett and McGowan (who had the highest GB rates among the starters) would be the most vulnerable to changes, and in particular, to age-related decline or return to career defence norms from John McDonald.

Malcolm Little - Wednesday, December 05 2007 @ 10:18 AM EST (#177053) #

Even though I await ZIPS and Pecota both telling me that Miller will outperform Willis even in 2008, I can't see this as anything but a huge win for the Tigers. I'm very curious about their lineup for 2008.

Also, I really wonder whether the Jays might be dealing for a Lincecum so that they don't have to be so reliant on their defense. At SS, that's hurting, not helping overall.

Pistol - Wednesday, December 05 2007 @ 10:20 AM EST (#177054) #
PECOTA isn't especially crazy about Maybin for what it's worth.
Marc Hulet - Wednesday, December 05 2007 @ 10:33 AM EST (#177055) #

I can't see this as anything  but an amazing trade for Detroit. Best case scenario for Maybin is a career like Cabrera has had so far, IF he meets his projection. Willis is a lefty who should benefit from Comerica and won 20 games as a 23-year-old. Miller still needs significant work on his change-up and overall command. And the other four players really aren't that great, with Trahern being the best of the rest and he's a sinker baller who has never broken the century mark on strikeouts likely relegating him to a reliever role in the majors. De la Cruz has that nice fastball but lacks command and control.
timpinder - Wednesday, December 05 2007 @ 10:37 AM EST (#177057) #

The Indians have apparently revived talks with the Pirates regarding Jason Bay, in the wake of the Tiger's aquisition of Miguel Cabrera.  The American League, in particular the East and Central, keeps getting stronger.

One trade that I would LOVE to see happen this winter is for the NL to trade the Chicago Cubs to the AL East.  In return, the NL Central would obtain the Toronto Blue Jays. 

Mike Green - Wednesday, December 05 2007 @ 10:57 AM EST (#177058) #
Maybin could end up as a better player than Cabrera, and could end up being a much more valuable property.  He was somewhat behind where Cabrera was at age 20 offensively, but he is a centerfielder and Cabrera is fat.

This trade does, I think, put an end to the Maybin/Ricky Romero 2005 draft comments that have filtered through the site over the last few years. Romero was chosen over other players to a significant degree because of his perceived closeness to the majors.  Romero may yet become a good pitcher, but at this point his trade value would be quite small, whereas Maybin was just traded for one of the ten best hitters in the game.

FisherCat - Wednesday, December 05 2007 @ 11:01 AM EST (#177059) #
Giants reportedly mulling over a Jays offer
Parker - Wednesday, December 05 2007 @ 11:05 AM EST (#177060) #
If Rios is traded, I'd be very nervous about Wells' health.  If he gets hurt, is there anyone else in the organization with a major league bat who can play a capable defensive CF?
melondough - Wednesday, December 05 2007 @ 11:05 AM EST (#177061) #

According to Rothensal, the Jays have left Rios for Cain or Lincecum in the Giants hands.  And maybe more interesting than that is the fact that sources say that the Jays are unlikely to move Burnett if they get one of the Giants pitchers.  They  apparantly feel that it would be counter-productive (along the lines of 2 steps forward for 2 steps back as someone recently posted).  Anyhow, I am very happy to hear that.  Let's keep AJ in Toronto - worst case is we take a great run at the dyanamic duo and we get a couple of draftees next year for Burnett.


Brian - Wednesday, December 05 2007 @ 11:13 AM EST (#177062) #
As much as I love Rios a deal for Cain is tempting.  I'm just worried that this weakens the outfield too much.  What is the general feeling here, do you think JP would add another OF or stand pat and hope Lind can produce with more AB's?  On the free-agent front Milton Bradley looks tempting if you could deal with the off field issues he always seems to have.  The Canadian homer in me would like to see a follow-up deal where the Jays get Jason Bay but realistically I'm not sure the Jays match up well or even how Bay would fit into the lineup.  Anyone hear anything about this or have a feeling what the Jays would do in the OF if they traded Rios??
Bones - Wednesday, December 05 2007 @ 11:15 AM EST (#177063) #
Marcum may have had similar K rate's to McGowan in the minor leagues, but you are implying that they will continue to post similar K rates, then you are overlooking a couple of very important factors.

First, their minor league K rates.

Look at Marcum's K rates in the minors:

Low Minors - 12.44 K/9 in Low A (34 innings), 9.46 K/9 in A (79 innings) and 9.35 K/9 in High A (69.1). 
High Minors - 6.75 K/9 in AA (53.1 innings) and 8.64 K/9 in AAA (156.1 innings).

Total - 9.00 K/9 in 392 innings

There is a big difference there, especially when you consider that on his first run through AAA his K rate was 7.81 K/9 in 103.2 innings, and his overall rate is buoyed by a stellar repeat engagement in Syracuse in 2006 (10.25 K/9 in 52.2 innings). 

Compare Marcum's rates with McGowan:

Low Minors - 10.75 K/9 in Low A (67 innings), 9.89 K/9 in A (148.1 innings) and 8.01 K/9 in High A (96.2). 
High Minors - 8.45 K/9 in AA (142.2 innings) and 9.76 K/9 in AAA (106 innings).

Total - 9.18 K/9 in 585.2 innings

Looking at McGowan, there is less of a difference between his K rate in the low minors and in the high minor than there is with Marcum.  Granted, McGowan also had a return engagement at AAA in which his posted an insane K rate (11.86 K/9 in 22 innings), but his rate prior to that was still excellent (9.21 K/9 in 84 innings).  When you take into consideration that Marcum was drafted out of college and McGowan out of high school, the reason for this split becomes pretty clear.  Marcum was a polished college pitcher with solid stuff that tore apart the low minors at an advanced age, but had a bit more trouble missing bats when he reached the high minors (although he did manage to adjust).  McGowan was a raw product out a high school, but still managed to post good K rates in the low minors at a young age, and managed to sustain (and even improve) these strong rates as he rose up the ladder.  This is even more impressive when you consider that he had major surgery in the midst of this.

Taken at face value, they do have very similar K rates in the minors.  But when the reasons for, and implications of, those K rates are vastly different.

Second, look at their K rates in the big leagues.


2005 - 4.50 K/9 in 8 innings
2006 - 7.47 K/9 in 78.1 innings
2007 - 6.91 K/9 in 159 innings

Total - 7.01 K/9 in 245.1 innings


2005 - 6.75 K/9 in 45.1 innings
2006 - 7.24 K/9 in 27.1 innings
2007 - 7.64 K/9 in 169.2 innings

Total - 7.43 K/9 in 242.1 innings

Since they have been in the majors, the two pitchers are clearly going in different directions in terms of K rate.  McGowan has shown constant improvement, which makes sense, considering that he has been coming back from TJ surgery during that time.  Also, he is becoming more and more polished as a pitcher, relying less on his natural ability (which is excellent) and improving his command and pitching plans.  Marcum, on the other hand, has been backsliding in terms of K rate.  This also makes sense, since he was basically a finished product when he reached the majors, possessing excellent command of average stuff.  As teams learn more about him and get a better sense of what he is trying to do, he is prone to a drop in K rate, or at least a leveling off.  Either way, that is what happened this past year.

Thirdly, there is absolutely no comparison between the two pitchers in scouting terms.  McGowan is a 25 year old with phenomenal stuff and average command, which is constantly improving.  Marcum is a 26 year old with very good command of average stuff.  Pitchers that throw hard and have great breaking balls are better bets to maintain and improve their K rates than soft-tossing righties with very good command.  That is simply a fact of life.

Anyway, thats my argument.  That ended up being a lot longer than I had planned, but I have a tendency to get annoyed when people compare McGowan and Marcum.  Marcum, I find, is constantly overrated by Jays fans, while McGowan is underrated.  I love having both, but McGowan is clearly the better pitcher right now, and a MUCH better bet for future success.  I admit that I was probably wrong to lump Marcum in with Janssen and Litsch in my previous post, but he belongs closer to them than to McGowan.

Bones - Wednesday, December 05 2007 @ 11:16 AM EST (#177064) #
Wow, that comment took me so long to post that it ended up being WAY off topic.  Sorry about that.
Halladayfan32 - Wednesday, December 05 2007 @ 11:21 AM EST (#177065) #
Wilner was just on the Fan and said the Jays are interested in Kenny Lofton.  They want to sign him to a one year deal to platoon in LF and bat leadoff.
Maldoff - Wednesday, December 05 2007 @ 11:26 AM EST (#177067) # is reporting that the Jason Bay-to-Cleveland deal is basically done. It would be Bay and Ronny Paulino for Franklin Gutierrez, Kelly Shoppach and either Cliff Lee or "a minor leaguer".

Paul D - Wednesday, December 05 2007 @ 11:43 AM EST (#177068) #

To be fair, Maldoff's link says that "the deal is far from done".

zaptom - Wednesday, December 05 2007 @ 11:48 AM EST (#177070) #
ESPN's Buster Olney says the Jason Jay deal is "dead".

SK in NJ - Wednesday, December 05 2007 @ 11:48 AM EST (#177071) #

This is the type of deal where I won't feel disappointed either way. If it happens, fine. If it doesn't, that's fine too. You can't really go wrong with either keeping Rios or getting Lincecum/Cain. The only issue for me, as I said in the other thread, is the health of the pitchers. I would really have to be convinced that both are 110% healthy. The team trading the established position player for the young NL pitcher is always taking the bigger risk. Ricciardi seems to be in a "pitching and defense is the only way to topple the monsters" mode. I'm guessing JP is also banking on Snider being ready by 2009-ish, because the outfield situation if Rios is traded is going to be ugly, especially if Wells doesn't produce more .900 OPS seasons.

I do like the Lofton idea though, especially if the Jays keep Rios. That would solve three issues (LF, LHB, lead-off) plus keep Stairs and Johnson on the bench where they can be insurance in case of injury to Thomas, Overbay, or one of the OF's. It's a shame about Bay going to the Indians though. He's another RHB, but he would have looked nice with the Jays.

RhyZa - Wednesday, December 05 2007 @ 11:57 AM EST (#177072) #

It would be awfully hard to part with Rios but a lot of people seem to think it is a no brainer to trade an every day player to get more years of cheaper service from Cain or Lincecum who seemingly have the higher upside.  I know everyone overrates their own prospects, but perusing a couple of Giant boards, and they make it seem like Rios is a scrub and such a deal would be totally ridiculous.

I hope JP is playing the angle that they value Cain more, so we get Lincecum because from what I've read of the former he could have potential arm problems with that delivery.  Again, everyone swears by the young pitcher philosophy but they are also a much riskier proposition, especially health-wise, than an every day outfielder.

RhyZa - Wednesday, December 05 2007 @ 12:13 PM EST (#177074) #
With that said Rios for Lincecum IS a no brainer. 
Noah - Wednesday, December 05 2007 @ 12:28 PM EST (#177075) #
Gammons is saying that an AJ trade isn't happening today.

Also said that Ricciardi will head home today, not sure if that was a facetious comment or not...

Leigh - Wednesday, December 05 2007 @ 12:42 PM EST (#177076) #
If that (a package of or similar to Gutierrez, Shoppach, Lee) is all that Pittsburgh wants for Bay, then he won't be a Pirate for long...
CaramonLS - Wednesday, December 05 2007 @ 12:47 PM EST (#177077) #
That package would probably be a Jays rough equivilent to of about Lind/Marcum, no? 
ComebyDeanChance - Wednesday, December 05 2007 @ 12:51 PM EST (#177079) #
Bones, your post was very good.

Marcum's AL success in 2007 was to some considerable extent a two-month event. In May and June his numbers were very, very good. But those were the only 2 months that his era was below 4.

In those two months he made 9 starts, against the following teams.

Only 2 of the 9 starts were against teams who scored more than the median number of runs (788) in the AL. Those starts were against NYY and PHI. The other 7 were against offenses that scored fewer than the median number of runs in the AL.

His 9 starts overall were excellent, but his numbers and peripherals were not repeated in the remaining starts. His h/9ip in particular rose considerably.

I would be somewhat hesitant to predict with confidence that Marcum will be a successful AL starter, let alone that his future success chances are comparable to McGowan's. As others have noted, McGowan brings a power game to the table with plus offspeed.
Halladayfan32 - Wednesday, December 05 2007 @ 12:58 PM EST (#177080) #

The jays have made a minor trade picking up Buck Coats from the Reds for a PTBNL.


Mike Forbes - Wednesday, December 05 2007 @ 12:58 PM EST (#177081) #

Lincecum and Cain ain't nothing to Buck Coats!

Jays picked Coats up from Cinci for a PTBNL

Jdog - Wednesday, December 05 2007 @ 01:02 PM EST (#177082) #

People forget that Marcum was pitching hurt the last month or so of the season, whether that affected his performance only he would know. Also you guys are underestimating his change-up. And I thought Bones point about the strikeout ratio's was pretty much useless, as there K rate in the high minors and majors still look pretty similar to me, the fact that Marcum's K rate increased to over 10K/9 his last trip through AAA even adds more reason to believe that he will continue to get better as he adjusts to the major's

John Northey - Wednesday, December 05 2007 @ 01:07 PM EST (#177083) #
Tom Cheek on the ballot for the Frick award again.

Also of note is that former Jays broadcaster Tony Kubek and former Expos announcer Dave Van Horne are on it too.
Mark - Wednesday, December 05 2007 @ 01:12 PM EST (#177084) #
The way this deal is set up is unusual. I get the impression that the delay has more to do with the Giants deciding which pitcher they value more rather than whether or not they want Rios. If I had to guess, I think it gets done. It has the feeling of the Glaus and Overbay trades, where the Jays we not saying too much publicly but the media was on it.
If the Jays see 2008-2010 as their window to compete with this club they should back up such a deal with a major short term signing of a legit RF, say Andruw Jones at 3/50. Or even Mike Cameron for the same years and a lot less money.
timpinder - Wednesday, December 05 2007 @ 01:39 PM EST (#177085) #

Regarding the hypothetical challenge of replacing Rios, I think you'd only have to find a replacement for one season, maybe two.  If Snider tears up A+ or AA this year the way he handled the AFL, I think that it's conceivable that we'll see him in a Jays uniform in nine months.  If he has a successful year and a good showing in September then I don't think it's beyond the realm of possibility that Snider will be a 21 year old starting RF with the Jays in 2009.  I've mentioned before that with Snider on the way and Lind in AAA in 2008, there wouldn't be anywhere for Lind to play until 2010, when Thomas departs.  Moving Rios while his value is high in order to obtain a starter to replace Burnett is a good move.  Ricciardi need only find a one year stop-gap rightfielder, such as Shawn Green.  Rios' defense will be missed, but the Jays would have another lefthanded bat in the lineup and Rios' departure would make room for both Lind and Snider.


timpinder - Wednesday, December 05 2007 @ 01:44 PM EST (#177086) #

The Dodgers and Jays are possibly talking about Glaus.  It was also reported on Rotoworld.,1,7218495.story?track=rss&ctrack=1&cset=true

I'd do Glaus for La Roche in a heart beat.

ramone - Wednesday, December 05 2007 @ 01:49 PM EST (#177087) #

Seems like the Giants want more than Rios:

This is from

Brian Sabean wants more than just Rios for Lincecum (yes, the Jays prefer Lincecum based on service time).  The Giants want an improved proposal from the Jays, and Toronto could add Robinzon Diaz, Curtis Thigpen, or Brett Cecil.  Cecil would have to be a player to be named later since he was drafted in 2007.  He signed on June 22nd, so he can't even be named as a PTBNL until December 22nd. 

I sure hope we don't have to give up Diaz or Cecil in this.

ANationalAcrobat - Wednesday, December 05 2007 @ 01:52 PM EST (#177088) #
I had a post prepared saying the exact same thing, ramone. Good thing I checked for new posts when I hit preview. I also really don't want to give up Diaz or Cecil. Diaz has a good chance at being a starting catcher and is close to the majors and Cecil is not so far himself (college pick) and has major upside.
ayjackson - Wednesday, December 05 2007 @ 02:05 PM EST (#177090) #

If a minor league throw-in is all that is preventing this deal from happening from the Giants perspective, it has to get done.  I'd prefer Thigpen - and feel Cecil is untouchable.  Maybe we could send them Purcey.  We could get Mylegacy down to Nashville tout de suite to sing the praises of young Purcey in earshot of Mr. Sabean.  I think Purcey is still an excellent prospect to be at least an excellent reliever at the major league level and possibly more, but I wouldn't think twice about adding him to this deal to get it done.

HollywoodHartman - Wednesday, December 05 2007 @ 02:18 PM EST (#177093) #

Throw in Thigpen and arrange the press conference. He doesn't seem to have much of a future in Toronto as Diaz looks to be the C of the future, he can't move to 2nd because of Hill and by no means has the bat for 3rd.

That said, one of the great things about about Lincecum (I believe its pronounced Lin-Seh-Kum) is that he makes around the league minimum. This would free up a few mil for the team which they can use on a backup C or even a new outfielder. I personally like the idea of Mike Cameron.

SK in NJ - Wednesday, December 05 2007 @ 02:28 PM EST (#177095) #

Diaz and Thigpen can't both catch in AAA at the same time, so including one of them in the deal shouldn't be an issue if JP wants this trade bad enough. If it only took adding Thigpen to the deal to make it work, then I'd imagine JP will finalize the deal rather quickly. He seems higher on Diaz anyway. Judging by the previous trade these two teams made, Sabean wanted Vinnie Chulk with Hillenbrand in order to trade Accardo, so he might be looking for a pitcher in the deal to off-set losing Lincecum. Interesting nonetheless.

ANationalAcrobat - Wednesday, December 05 2007 @ 02:50 PM EST (#177096) #
A funny thought just occured to me: If the Lincecum trade goes through, Alexis Rios will the successor to Barry Bonds in San Francisco!
Seamus - Wednesday, December 05 2007 @ 02:55 PM EST (#177098) #
If that's true, I think you gotta throw in Thigpen to get this deal done.  He didn't seem to have a real fit on this team anyway, once the management  seemed to decide that he wouldn't cut it as catcher.
ayjackson - Wednesday, December 05 2007 @ 02:57 PM EST (#177100) #

Diaz and Thigpen can't both catch in AAA at the same time, so including one of them in the deal shouldn't be an issue if JP wants this trade bad enough.

There's plenty of room at AAA for these two and I believe that is the plan.  They have both played 2B and 3B and they can both DH.  There's no reason why they can't get 400 AB's each.

crush_99 - Wednesday, December 05 2007 @ 03:17 PM EST (#177103) #
some video of Tim Lincecum's Mechanics and a discussion of his durability

On another note - I have been getting some mysql errors lately when coming to the site - if you can access your mysql database you might want to increase the

max_connections parameter ( defaults to 100).
Gerry - Wednesday, December 05 2007 @ 03:43 PM EST (#177107) #

I heard Blair on the Fan around 3pm.

Jays would do a Rios for Cain even up

Jays will not do a Rios for Lincecum even up, they are asking the Giants to take back Glaus in that case in a bigger deal

Blair doesn't believe the Jays are acquiring Cain/Lincecum to flip Burnett.  He thinks the Jays believe you need a very strong rotation to compete in the AL East.

Based on this and Sabean's comments they may be at an impass.

Seamus - Wednesday, December 05 2007 @ 03:59 PM EST (#177109) #
Blair updated his blog too...

Talks a bit about Cain and Lincecum, and also Lo Duca

Seamus - Wednesday, December 05 2007 @ 05:41 PM EST (#177123) #
I may be getting ahead of myself, but if the Jays trade Rios for Cain/Lincecum, I could see the Jays making a play for Jason Bay.  Godfrey said he'd love to have a big Canadian player on the team.  And, also Pittsburgh's demands for Bay don't seem to be ridiculous, judging by the deal rumored between them and Cleveland.

Perhaps a package for Bay could include Lind, Litch, and another young player or two.

The outfield in 2008 would be Johnson/Staris, Wells, Bay.  And, hopefully, in 2009 you have Snider, Wells, Bay.

Or, if the Jays signed Lofton, it could be Lofton/Stairs in left as a one year solution until Snider comes up.

JB21 - Wednesday, December 05 2007 @ 05:44 PM EST (#177124) #
Loften and Stairs both hit left so I don't see that platoon happening.
Seamus - Wednesday, December 05 2007 @ 05:49 PM EST (#177125) #
my mistake, I thought he was right handed
Mike D - Wednesday, December 05 2007 @ 06:07 PM EST (#177126) #
You know it's been a slow day at the Winter Meetings when Crasnick devotes a bullet to the Padres' plans to invite Glendon Rusch and Shawn Estes to camp.

I guess Steve Avery and Zane Smith were unavailable.
Halladayfan32 - Wednesday, December 05 2007 @ 06:23 PM EST (#177129) #
The New York Post is reporting that Lo Duca is close to signing a one year contract with the Jays.
HollywoodHartman - Wednesday, December 05 2007 @ 06:52 PM EST (#177131) #

Blair updated his blog. Mentioned the Jays offer to Lo Duca was one year less than 5 mil. But as to everyone's favourite rumour he said this.

"Ricciardi still hasn't heard back from the San Francisco Giants, but sources with both teams said there is now just one offer on the table: Alex Rios for Tim Lincecum, even up. No Troy Glaus. No Matt Cain. Nothing else. Ricciardi is ready to make the deal right now. Giants GM Brian Sabean has yet to respond - although he has delayed his daily press briefing with Bay area reporters."

Git'r Done!

Dr. Zarco - Wednesday, December 05 2007 @ 08:59 PM EST (#177134) #
Not sure where Blair got the original deal with LoDuca, but that story has not only been pulled from Blair's site on the Globe and Mail website, but it's also been pulled from Rotoworld. The latest from Blair paints a much bleaker picture about LoDuca signing for anything under 5M, let alone the 2.5M that was reported earlier.
Chuck - Wednesday, December 05 2007 @ 08:59 PM EST (#177135) #
You know it's been a slow day at the Winter Meetings when Crasnick devotes a bullet to the Padres' plans to invite Glendon Rusch and Shawn Estes to camp.

The Padres are going to have to figure out a way to carry about 16 pitchers: a bunch of minimum-wage scrubs and reclamations that they can only get away with using at home and then guys who are safe to use on the road as well.
China fan - Thursday, December 06 2007 @ 01:10 AM EST (#177161) #
   The Globe in today's editions says the Jays still have a good shot at signing LoDuca.   Personally, I really hope the Jays can sign him.  I'm still nostalgic for the days of the Zaun/Molina platoon, and I think Molina was an undervalued member of the last good offensive team that the Jays have mustered.  I don't think it's a total coincidence that the Jays produced a lot more from their catcher position in 2006 (when the Jays finished second in the AL East) than in 2007 (when they finished third).  Of course there were many other factors, but I don't think the Jays can contend in 2008 if the catcher platoon is Zaun and Fasano, and I'm really worried that the Jays will try to save money by going with Fasano.
ANationalAcrobat - Thursday, December 06 2007 @ 01:30 AM EST (#177163) #
MLB Trade Rumors/Dodgers official site has Andruw Jones with the Dodgers for 2 yrs/36 million. Juan Pierre will have a bigger contract than Andruw freakin' Jones. Wow. It's a really nice deal the Dodgers, who who get an excellent defender with great offensive potential. Massive buy-low, obviously. I'm shocked he didn't just go with a one year deal instead to re-establish his value and then make a killing next year, though I suppose a two year deal will essentially do the same thing.

Andruw has already earned 87.7 million, according to the Baseball Cube. I really wonder whether or not the financial side of a contract actually matters to a guy like that.

SheldonL - Thursday, December 06 2007 @ 02:14 AM EST (#177164) #
CaramonLS, Gutierrez, Shoppach and Lee is akin to Snider, Thigpen and Chacin.

Gutierrez is a 5-tool player who could develop into a Rios-type stud. Lee's star has fallen drastically from a strikeout pitcher who was I believe fourth in Cy Young voting when Colon took home the prize(I might be wrong), Shoppach is a good-hitting catcher who happens to play on teams with all-star catchers(Varitek then Victor Martinez; note that I think Varitek is overrated and that there's been talk of permanently shifting Martinez to 1B)

ALSO, I can't believe that people would actually flinch at the thought of acquiring Cain who is owed approx.$9mil over the next 3 years. That combined with his success the past two seasons(190+ IP) trumps Lincecum's potential injury issues and his tremendous potential!
Chuck - Thursday, December 06 2007 @ 07:27 AM EST (#177171) #
I really wonder whether or not the financial side of a contract actually matters to a guy like that.

You mean because planet earth is swamped with athletes who say "I've made enough money. Money no longer matters to me. I'm now willing to work for less than market value because I think the owners should keep the money instead."?
Mike Green - Thursday, December 06 2007 @ 09:03 AM EST (#177173) #
Poor man want to be rich, rich man want to be king and the king aint satisfied til he rules everything...

I guess that it doesn't matter whether you're working with wheels, working in fields, or with a bat in your hands, the rules are pretty much the same.

ANationalAcrobat - Thursday, December 06 2007 @ 11:01 AM EST (#177182) #
Chuck, you know who gets pissed when that happens? The Player's Association. When Wakefield signed his contract of perpetual options, he got hell from the PA. It puts pressure on every other player to do the same, making those who don't look bad. It also lowers everyone elses' market value. Some players are definitely willing, but when they consider the reaction of other players - teammates - they don't do it.
Chuck - Thursday, December 06 2007 @ 12:48 PM EST (#177205) #

Players Association nothing. Mike summed it up perfectly. It's human nature, and perfectly legitimate, to demand appropriate compensation no matter what you are doing and no matter how full your coffers.

The baseball owners are not running a charity. They are running a $6B enterprise. You wouldn't expect them to say "We're already extremely rich men as it is. We're no longer going to pay the players 42% of league revenues, but rather 70%. We have much more money than the players. They could use the money more than we could."

ANationalAcrobat - Thursday, December 06 2007 @ 01:23 PM EST (#177208) #
Players Association nothing.

Back off with the snarky comments, Chuck. Your tone is insulting. My earlier post was simple speculation. I wasn't saying that Andruw has earned enough that he would play for nothing; clearly no major leaguer is doing that. I had just called a 32 million dollar contract a bargain, and I was considering the implications of that.

Chuck - Thursday, December 06 2007 @ 01:50 PM EST (#177211) #

My apologies if your feathers were ruffled, but the "he's already made a lot of money in his life" argument is an old one, long ago proven spurious. When free agency started, it was speculated that players would retire earlier, having earned so much more money than players past. Bill James questioned this line of thinking, suggesting that the opposite would happen, that 40-year old players would hang on as long as they could if they knew they could eke out another $1M contract. Years later, of course, it's $3-5M contracts that are getting eked out. Just watch Kenny Lofton eke away year after year.

As for Andruw Jones being a bargan at $36.2M, you're not alone in that sentiment. That said, Jones will presumably be baseball's highest paid CF for the next two seasons (the rationale of the ".2" in the 36.2), all that coming off a 222/311/413 clinker of a season. I agree with those who suggest that the contract length is odd. Why not just one year and go after a 9-figure contract next off-season?

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