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The Jays won both games of an unusual double header - it was the first time the Jays had completed an postponed game since 1996. The two wins, combined with a Rays loss, brought the Jays 1.5 games closer to the playoff race, though they are still 8.5 out.


Recently I saw some Vegas odds that put the Jays payoff on winning the pennant at 100 to 1. I'd guess that in reality its closer to 50 to 1, though the difference between 1% and 2% is certainly small. I of course bring this up as a framing device, as an excuse to talk about the Jays playoff chances. Whatever might be said about the season so far, the Jays playoff chances are not zero, though they definitely aren't good. ESPN now includes a playoff odds calculator with their standings, which gives the Jays a 6.7% chance of making the playoffs.

It has become the journalistic truism of the day that teams aren't making deadline deals because they think they can pull a Colorado and storm into the playoffs. I would doubt that many GMs other than Ed Wade believe this though (their public answers may tell another story, I'm sure). With this being said, the Jays certainly could string a bunch of wins together and make the AL East even more exciting, along with the Yankees, who are quietly storming the gates as well. If it's going to happen at any time, now would probably be the best opportunity - the Jays play three against the woeful Mariners, the scuffling Rays, and the admittedly resurgent Rangers, then four against the struggling A's, followed by three against Cleveland and four against Detroit. These opponents are not all cupcakes, to be sure, but this twenty game stretch, of which thirteen are at home, present the Jays their best chance at making a run into relevancy. I'm not saying it will happen, of course, but it's probably more likely now then in the subsequent set of games (Boston, Yankees, Boston, Tampa, Yankees).

As a team, the Jays have gotten better offensively and worse pitching wise as the season has , or so it seems. The callup of Adam Lind, long overdue, turns a position of weakness into one of strength. The possible return of Aaron Hill, and the eventual return of Vernon Wells promise to improve the offense as well. I won't even attempt to speculate at the difference Gaston and Co. are making, but Rios seems to be on the right track at least.

The staff, other than Halladay, is a bit of a question mark.  I see no reason why Marcum won't return to form, however - presumably fatigue won't be such a huge factor now. Burnett is pitching better as well, and McGowan may eventually return. Jesse Litsch has fallen back to earth unfortunately, though the Jays at least have options for the back end of the rotation. The bullpen's turned it on again as well, which is nice. There are certainly several pieces of a good ballclub here, though putting it together will be the difficult part.

I've personally given up on the Jays in disgust three or four times this season, and there's no (real) reason not to think that they won't disappoint again. For the moment, at least, my quiet optimism will endure. Unless they don't sweep the Mariners, because that team is really awful.

July 25, 2008: .500, or 8.5 back | 39 comments | Create New Account
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wdc - Friday, July 25 2008 @ 06:45 AM EDT (#189417) #
I appreciate the slight optimism in this message but I can't share even in that.  I have been disappointed too many times this year, especially by the hitting. Each of the positive points are weak ones.  It is not clear that McGowan will be back at all and if he pitches like he was doing before the injury, I am uncertain whether he will help out.  I am pleased that Rios is hitting better but his brain cramps at times bother me.  And I just don't understand why there has been such a drop in his home run hitting. When a team lacks a hitter who brings the threat of a home run each time he comes to the plate, then it is always in a weak position in my opinion.  Lind's return suggests that he might have this potential but we will have to see how he weathers his first  "cooling off" period and whether he is able to bounce back.  I also have concerns about BJ Ryan. I just don't have confidence that he is going to close the door consistently, something again a team needs in its closer.  The starting pitching will be adequate but I am less confident in the bullpen.  Maybe if Accardo is able to come back, I would feel more encouraged.  I am not sure when Vernon Wells is scheduled to be back but it is probably after this stretch games Anders mentions is over.  I am not sure that the Jays can mount a strong winning stretch with Wilkerson as the third outfielder.  Finally, I doubt whether we see Aaron Hill back this season; he has been gone for two months now and one would have thought that healing would have taken place.  Two months is a long time to be away and even if he were to become healthy, it is going to take several weeks for him to be back in top playing form.  I have sometimes wondered as well whether the team misses Hill more than many of us have appreciated.  In short, I have no hope for the team getting into contention.
Matthew E - Friday, July 25 2008 @ 09:15 AM EDT (#189418) #
I find myself wondering if Hill will ever make it back at all.
GregD - Friday, July 25 2008 @ 09:43 AM EDT (#189420) #
I totaly agree. I'm not at all comfortable with Ryan. Honestly, I'd rather have Downs closing. He's my security blanket.
Dave501 - Friday, July 25 2008 @ 09:51 AM EDT (#189421) #

A sad reality, but this year, right now, might be the jays best opportunity to make the playoffs they'll see in a while.  The vulnerablility of the competition has been much discussed, but what hasn't is the impending loss of Burnett and Rolen. 

Burnett has not been an ace, but realistically, if he opts out, there's a strong likelihood that his spot in the rotation will not be upgraded next year (internally, or free agent, regardless if he's not great, we've got nobody better on the way who isn't already here).

No doubt Rolen has been completely underwhelming, but if he "opts out" after this year (slightly different scenario then AJ, but we'll call it that)  there's a good chance we'll have a black hole at 3B next year.  FA 3B are hard to come by, and there's nobody in the minors who is close, so Scuts could be the man.

So, there's more reason to be optomistic for this year then next.  Almost a full team in tact with few significant injurries (Wells who?), week competitiion, strong pitching and depth, new manager and momentum, not too many headcases (well, we still got JP but i'm confident that will be rectified in the offseason)....

Mike Green - Friday, July 25 2008 @ 09:55 AM EDT (#189422) #
It should be said that in 2008, the AL East is by far the best division in baseball.  I still think, as I did at the start of the season, that 85 wins will probably mean 4th place and 90 will probably mean 2nd, and a Wild Card berth, by the time the season is done. 
Glevin - Friday, July 25 2008 @ 10:02 AM EDT (#189423) #
"In short, I have no hope for the team getting into contention."

That's just realism. The Jays have 60 games left. If they go say 35-25, something very unlikely, they still only be at 86 wins. Tampa would only need to go 27-34 to tie them. (Nevermind the Yankees, Boston, Minnesota, Tigers, and Oakland all of whom the Jays would have to pass)  If the Jays go 40-20 something that would be beyond shocking, they'd end up with 91 wins which still might not be enough to make it in.  ESPN has some trade rumous which includes a Jays section which has quotes from J.P. which have me worried. He still likes the makeup of the team. I know I may be in the minority here, but I don't see this team being close to a playoff team for the next few years. As much as I'd hate to see him go, I think the Jays should even explore trading Halladay. If the Indians could get what they did for Sabathia in his walk year, the Jays could effectively rebuild half the core of the team. (Something like Kemp, Laroche, Elbert?). Anyway, I have this sinking feeling that the Jays will keep holding on to mediocrity in the vain hope that next year everything will go right for them.
christaylor - Friday, July 25 2008 @ 10:32 AM EDT (#189428) #
Hill should be OK, eventually, if he listens to the doctors and fights his instincts to try and "beat this". I'm not a doctor but I'm currently finishing up a PhD in neuroscience/psychology and have taken courses that have included the topic of post-concussion syndrome, so while no authority I'm not as uninformed as I could be... hearing the news at first Hill was probably his own worst enemy, trying to push himself. Common story. It sounds like the doctors got through to him and Hill is mostly shut down and limiting his strenuous activity. We shouldn't expect him back this season but with luck we'll hear that sometime during the winter he's back exercising. From there, as long as he doesn't suffer another one (a la Church) he should be fine for 2009.

Needless to say, this one fluky collision makes the Eckstein signing an unfortunate one. From what I recall from the play Eckstein had no business being where he was. He's not a good enough SS to be able to call anyone off. Cito is using him exactly as he should be.
Rich - Friday, July 25 2008 @ 11:04 AM EDT (#189430) #
I don't see this team being close to a playoff team for the next few years. ...I have this sinking feeling that the Jays will keep holding on to mediocrity in the vain hope that next year everything will go right for them.

Deja vu all over again.  It's just like the Ash years revisited - a reasonably talented team finishes well out of the hunt and then management tells us they're not too far off.  Yes, the Jays are in a tough division and they're expected record is much better than their actual record, but even a good second half to finish at or around 85 wins is something we've seen before.
Ducey - Friday, July 25 2008 @ 11:12 AM EDT (#189431) #

Next year there are simply too many holes in the lineup to realistically think that this team can be turned into a "contendah".  If Rolen is gone, then there are black holes at 3B, SS, 2B (assuming Inglett comes back to earth and Hill is still dizzy).  C is likely to be dicey as Zaun looks done and Barajas in inconsistent year on year. 1B, RF and CF are likely to be an expensive (Hi Vernon) but average group, and the there is no DH.  The pitching is the strength but even this seems to have fallen apart lately and AJ will be leaving next year.  This leaves the Jays wilth Doc, Marcum and McGowan, the latter two who are injury risks.  BJ and the Bullpen will be okay - although BJ seems about 1 MPH on his fastball from turning into Billy Koch(in his last season).

Accordinly the Jays should look at doing a firesale of Marlinian proportions .  Get rid of everyone including Doc.  The only guys I would be tempted to keep are Lind, Hill (if he is going to be healthy), Marcum and Carlsen.  If the Jays can get some top prospects and blend them with what they have on the farm, they might be good in 3 years.

The alternatives are 1)to try and tweak the lineup for next season, which will result in another 4th place finish or 2) sell the farm to fill all the holes.

I find it interesting to see Mr Beane selling off assets. He is likely under more financial pressure to do so, but I think part of it is he just doesn't see his team competing with the current lineup.  Its gutsy, but we need some bravery in Toronto for once.

Ryan Day - Friday, July 25 2008 @ 11:18 AM EDT (#189432) #
I can't see Rolen demanding a trade unless he really hates Toronto. He's going to make $11 million each of the next two years, which I doubt he'll receive on the free agent market.
John Northey - Friday, July 25 2008 @ 11:42 AM EDT (#189435) #
Wow, depressing group here today after winning 3 of 4 from Baltimore.

What do we have in Toronto?
Pitching: proven GM ability to find solid relievers (even his detractors have to admit this one) plus a rotation with Halladay (ace), Marcum (looks like a very solid #2), two youngsters who have shown promise (McGowan & Litsch) and a super hotshot charging hard in the minors (Cecil).  Mix in AJ and the various pitching prospects who are also charging hard and we have a heck of a pitching staff for awhile to come.

Offense: we have our CF and RF signed through 2014, plus (if he recovers) our second baseman all of whom are above ML average defensively and have a bottom of league average offense with peaks (for CF/RF) of around a 120 OPS+.  We have a LF who will be around for 5 more years before free agency hits in Lind who can hit.  We have a kid charging through the minors who should arrive in the majors in '09 sometime in Snider.  We have catching prospects up the ying yang in Diaz/Jeroloman/Arencibia who are 2009 guys plus more in the lower minors.  Scott Campbell is looking ready on offense at least to fill in for Hill if he doesn't recover by 2009. 

Holes: no backups for 1B/3B/SS coming soon.  However, Rolen is signed through 2010 as is Overbay.  Short is very weak with Eckstein a free agent and McDonald/Scutaro being nothing special as everyday players but both are useful backups.  Inglett is no more than a backup really. 

This team has a lot of talent and doing a mass sell off at this point would be a mistake.  Trading free agents to be in Zaun or Barajas (both have options for 2009), AJ, and Eckstein is common sense if something of value can be had.  Doing a Beane thing isn't as needed as the Jays do have the cash and are (somewhat) willing to spend.  Getting a solid shortstop should be a priority, as should getting top prospects for 3B/SS charging through the system.  However, with the pitching we have the potential is there for an amazing year with just a bit of luck that has escaped the Jays this year.

Baseball Prospectus' adjusted standings have the Jays as showing the skill for a 57-45 record so far, which (in a fair world) keeps them 4th but just 1/2 a game behind the Yankees, 5 behind the Rays and 9 back of the Red Sox (if I read the page right).  A record that would lead the west and be barely out of 1st in the central.  The Angels are 10 1/2 games ahead of their expected situation based on how they've played, while the Jays are 6 under.  Switch that and the Jays would be sitting pretty without anything changing but luck while the Angels would be fighting for last in the west.  Luck is that big in the majors, and the Jays are that close.

FYI: for scary be a Pirates fan.  They are 48-54 but should be 9 games lower based on this method.  Ugh.  Now there is a no-hope situation.

Another FYI: based on how they've played the A's should be in first in the west, with a 4 game lead.  They could have another charge in them if the Angels start losing some of that luck magic they've had and the A's get some of it.  Might've been too soon to write them off.
Dave Rutt - Friday, July 25 2008 @ 12:03 PM EDT (#189438) #
Another FYI: based on how they've played the A's should be in first in the west, with a 4 game lead. They could have another charge in them if the Angels start losing some of that luck magic they've had and the A's get some of it.

First the A's are going to have to figure out how to replace Rich Harden. Also, Eveland, Smith and Duchscherer are probably all over-performing given their components.
Rich - Friday, July 25 2008 @ 12:37 PM EDT (#189441) #
I disagree that team has a lot of talent on the offensive side of things.  Wells, Rios, and Hill are the only above-average hitters the Jays have, and 2 of the 3 are no sure thing to stay healthy. Rios and Wells cannot be counted on to consistently produce from year to year.  Lind looks good, so hopefully the club has finished jerking him around once and for all.

The infield is woeful.  We are likely to get a league average performance at the absolute best from 4 out of 5 infield spots, and that's assuming Hill recovers fully.  That's not going to get it done, not even with as good of a pitching staff as the team currently has.  Inglett and Scutaro have been terrific, but they are not every day solutions by a long shot.  Just look at the hitting talent in other AL East infields - ARod, Jeter, Cano, Giambi, Posada, Lowell, Pedroia, Youkilis, Longoria, Pena.  The Jays have nowhere near this calibre of infielder, never mind 3 of them.

The farm system does have some promising hitters, no one is ready to take next season at short, catcher or third (if Rolen leaves)

Magpie - Friday, July 25 2008 @ 01:31 PM EDT (#189443) #
Wells, Rios, and Hill are the only above-average hitters the Jays have

You meant Wells, Rios, and Overbay, right?
greenfrog - Friday, July 25 2008 @ 01:42 PM EDT (#189444) #
I think the Jays have an OK (but not great) chance of contending in 2009. For one thing, the AL competition is going to be fierce. But this is yet another "if everything breaks right" scenario, which is exhausting even to think about. Basically, this would mean that the team stays mostly healthy, JP acquires a couple of key parts (say, a decent SS and DH), McGowan and Marcum rebound from their injuries, a couple of kids (maybe two of Cecil, Snider and Purcey) start contributing, Hill returns to form, Rios and Overbay start hitting home runs again...wow, that's a lot of ifs.

A fire sale is an interesting idea, but assuming the Jays keep Marcum and Lind, does the team really have a lot of marketable parts? Halladay, Rios...that's about it (Downs and Ryan aren't going to generate a lot in return). Most of the position players are having off-years, and McGowan has become a huge question mark, so in many cases the GM would likely be selling low. On the other hand, there seems to be a dearth of good free agents, so JP (or whoever the GM is this winter) could probably exchange Halladay and Rios for a few top-flight prospects. However, this type of scenario seems pretty remote, given everything we know about the current front office.
China fan - Friday, July 25 2008 @ 01:46 PM EDT (#189445) #
I think John Northey's analysis is much more convincing than the sweeping condemnations from the pessimists.  There's a lot of good talent on the current Jays team and it would be absurd to "blow up" the team on the random chance that a fresh batch of prospects would coalesce into a playoff team.   The Jays are blessed with great pitching, and more on the way.  That's an amazing foundation for the future.  I believe the outfield next year -- Rios, Wells and Lind -- will be strong.  There's a good chance that Rolen and Hill will bounce back in 2009, and Overbay is already returning to form.  The Jays will probably acquire a DH and a shortstop in the offseason, either by trade or free-agency.  Catcher will be solid next year, with Barajas and a youngster replacing Zaun.  The bench is strong, with Scutaro and Inglett and McDonald.  I don't think Snider or Campbell will be ready for the majors at the beginning of next season, but they could arrive by mid-season, further strengthening the offence.   And I fully agree with John's point about the underestimated importance of luck.  The Jays have not had good luck in 2007 or 2008, but they are due for some good fortune in 2009.
John Northey - Friday, July 25 2008 @ 01:52 PM EDT (#189446) #
Rich, I have to disagree on the no one ready behind the plate.  We have Diaz and Jeroloman in AAA and Arencibia in AA. 

Diaz: 24 years old, AAA numbers are 320/344/424 between last year and this over 36 games after hitting 316/344/409 in AA last year.  Improving on offense, seems to be decent defensively.  Next year at 25 is the time for him to do it if he is going to.

Jeroloman: 23 years old, left handed hitter (always a plus), impressed in AA hitting 263/392/406 - like Zaun a high OBP guy - 1 for 3 his one game in AAA with a walk of course.  Good rep defensively I think. Might need some AAA time but also could be ready for '09.

Arencibia: Just 22 years old, impressive power but no walking ability.  A+ 315-344-560 AA 281-285-508.  Basically is hitting like AAAA guy Kratz but 6 years younger so has lots of hope.  Makes me think of Benito Santiago except Santiago was hitting 300-324-467 as an everyday ML catcher at 22.

I see Diaz and Jeroloman both being capable ML backup catchers in 2009, with the potential to take over from either Zaun or Barajas by mid-season (figure the Jays will keep one of them around).  Both have shown offense that should translate to a 90's OPS+ which, from a catcher, is perfectly acceptable.

Btw, why are people talking about Rolen leaving when he is signed through 2010?  The logic that he wouldn't want to stay and demand a trade could be used with every last player if you wanted to.
China fan - Friday, July 25 2008 @ 01:53 PM EDT (#189447) #
Greenfrog, you listed a lot of "ifs" for 2009.  But not all of those "ifs" need to happen.  The Jays don't need every single factor to break perfectly for them.  They already have a strong bullpen and several excellent starters.  They just need to improve two or three of their offensive pieces -- and some of those improvements are quite likely to happen, in my view.  Rios and Overbay are already improving.  Wells has been much improved over 2007 (when he isn't injured).   Left field, obviously, is improving.  If the Jays can just get some improvement at 3B and 2B and DH next year, I think this will be a good lineup -- and, combined with the strong pitching and a bit better luck, the Jays will be contenders.
Ryan Day - Friday, July 25 2008 @ 01:55 PM EDT (#189448) #
Just look at the hitting talent in other AL East infields - ARod, Jeter, Cano, Giambi, Posada, Lowell, Pedroia, Youkilis, Longoria, Pena.  The Jays have nowhere near this calibre of infielder, never mind 3 of them.

Really? Cano's been horrible this year, Posada is probably done as a catcher, and Pena has gone back to normal - which is to say not any better than Overbay - after his one monster year. And for that matter, Lowell has only a slight edge over Rolen (116 OPS+ to Rolen's 113) and is a year older.
Dave501 - Friday, July 25 2008 @ 02:08 PM EDT (#189450) #

John, Rolen has the contractual option in the off-season to demand a trade (or become a free agent if they cant trade him).  As one poster pointed out, at $11M/year over the next two years, he's not overly likely to do it, but salaries are high, so it is a possibility that would leave the jays hurting.

I am surprised at the pessismism her when the jays finally reached .500, but i somewhat agree with it.  Accept, like Ash, and now JP, i think we're close.  its a long shot this year, or reload for 2010.  Too many holes for 2009 (1 or 2 Starting pitchers, SS, maybe 3B, maybe 2B, Catcher).

Who's in the free agent crop tcoming up at the end of his year?

92-93 - Friday, July 25 2008 @ 02:09 PM EDT (#189451) #
"Btw, why are people talking about Rolen leaving when he is signed through 2010? The logic that he wouldn't want to stay and demand a trade could be used with every last player if you wanted to."

Well John, there is the whole matter of the old CBA too. It's highly unlikely, but Rolen COULD choose to relocate if he so desired.
John Northey - Friday, July 25 2008 @ 02:09 PM EDT (#189452) #
Counting on luck is a mistake of course as anyone could have it.

The big question about 'tear down and rebuild' vs 'go for it' vs 'hold steady' lands into a question of pluses and minus.

Tear down
Pluses: gets rid of mediocre players and shifts focus to stinking it out to get high draft picks
Minuses: we'd have to suffer through at least 3-5 years of old Tampa Bay level crap before any high picks make the majors, plus no guarantee that the team would be any good in 5 years (see Pittsburgh, KC, Texas, etc.)

Go for it
Pluses: lots of excitement about pulling in a few high caliber players, focus on a miracle this year or blowing the wad for 2009
Minuses: most prospects would have to be traded, including Snider, to get anything good.  We'd probably see more ugly free agent contracts that kill flexibility a year or two from now and for awhile after.  Could still end up 4th (see Montreal Expos late 80's).

Hold Steady
Pluses: See guys we've been watching continue to develop, know we'll be around 500 where a bit of luck could push the Jays over the top ala the Angels
Minuses: See guys we've been watching continue to stagnate, know we'll be around 500 where a bit of bad luck could push the Jays into the basement ala San Diego.

Since I intend to be a fan long term I like the hold steady approach as it is fun to know who is on the team, follow guys in the minors, and hope for the best.  Random odds dictate one WS title every 30 years and I've enjoyed 2 of those in my under 40 years.  To be a win or nothing fan means you better be a Yankee fan as few others beat the odds.  A team that hangs around 500 for talent level will have that odd season where everything goes right and sneaks into the playoffs and gets a real shot at winning it all.  A team that goes for it will go through cycles like the Marlins where you might get a title but you also get lots of sub-500 years where hope is lost in March.

The Marlins, btw, have had 2 WS titles but also have never finished higher than 3rd in any other season with only 2 other years over 500 (83 wins in both of those years).  That, to me, would be no where near the fun that watching a Jays team contend from 83-90 with just one playoff appearance was.  91-93 was the easy time to be a fan, but 83-90 was the most fun (and painful at times) to watch in many ways.

I want to see Halladay spend his whole career here.  I want to see Wells and Rios patrol the outfield as well.  I want to find watching the minor league rosters shift more variable than the ML roster due to the stability up here.  I want to watch Snider, Lind, Diaz, Jeroloman, and many other kids come up and become something here.  To me that is far more fun than the Oakland 'lets dump them fast' or the Marlin of '97 'sign them all' methods.  Might not result in a lot of playoff action but it does make for a lot more fun during the season, cheering on the same guys rather than just cheering the uniform.

John Northey - Friday, July 25 2008 @ 02:13 PM EDT (#189453) #
Rolen had to waive a no-trade clause to come to the Jays.  I checked, couldn't find confirmation, but am fairly certain they also had him waive his right to demand a trade after this year.  Otherwise that trade wouldn't have made a whole lot of sense from the Jays point of view, having the risk that Rolen would walk if he had a really good year.
Rich - Friday, July 25 2008 @ 02:14 PM EDT (#189454) #
Overbay's EQA is .278.  MLB average for the position: .277.    He's at .275 / .378 / .404 for the year - this is a completely average first baseman.  Pena has been horrible, but his OPS is still almost equal to Overbay's and his upside is much, much higher. 

I don't really want to debate the individual years of the players I've listed - the point is that all of them have shown they can be much more than average hitters.  The same can't be said of most of the Jays infield, even Rolen - who is not the player he once was.  You don't honestly believe that the current organization is likely to have an above-average offensive infield in 2009, do you?  John's points on the young catchers are well taken, but even then they're not likely to get a lot of AB's at least until 2010 in the best case.
92-93 - Friday, July 25 2008 @ 02:19 PM EDT (#189455) #
Jordan Bastian, mlb.com :

"Rolen has the right to either demand a trade or opt out of his contract in order to become a free agent after this season. He has these options because he signed his eight-year, $90 million deal with the Cardinals in 2002 -- well before the new Collective Bargaining Agreement went into effect in October 2006.

Under the new CBA, players who have five years of Major League service time and are traded in the middle of a multiyear contract can no longer demand to be traded after spending one season with their new team. Players who fall into that category, but signed prior to the new rule -- Glaus included -- still maintain that right.

The first sign that Rolen probably won't choose either of these routes is the fact that he already waived his no-trade clause to join the Blue Jays. The consequences of either decision also make it unlikely that Rolen will exercise the right to demand a trade or choose free agency after the '08 season.

If Rolen were to demand a trade after one year with the Jays, he could only provide the club with a no-trade list consisting of six teams. He'd also lose three years of free agency. So, any team that aquired Rolen would be able to set his salary through arbitration, which would probably mean a pay cut from the $11 million he's due in each of the 2009-10 seasons.

Should Rolen decide instead to become a free agent after 2008, he wouldn't be able to hit the open market until March 15. By that time, teams are midway through Spring Training, when rosters and payrolls are close to being set, for the most part. That would significantly limit the number of suitors and size of the contract for Rolen."
Mike Forbes - Friday, July 25 2008 @ 02:25 PM EDT (#189456) #
Just throwing my opinion in here, I know not everyone will share it with me. I, myself would much rather watch a young rebuilding team with potential than watch this old stagnant bunch anyday. I'm all in favor of the aforementioned Marlins-esq firesale. Tear it down and build it back.
Mike Green - Friday, July 25 2008 @ 03:04 PM EDT (#189457) #
Jordan Bastian might be right, but I do wish to point out that Rolen has arguably been more valuable than Burnett this year, and almost every other year of his career.  Teams for some reason are more willing to overpay for starting pitching (perhaps because they do not appreciate the significance of team defence in run prevention) than they are for infielders.
Ducey - Friday, July 25 2008 @ 03:11 PM EDT (#189458) #

I don't think I am a pessimist.  Every spring I think this is year the Jays are going to be good, and then they are average again.   Its really getting tough to watch.

John N., do really think that team you mention with a mix of rushed prospects and inconsistent bats is really going to do anything next year?  Come on really? 

I can understand that as a fan you don't want see Doc go but I that kind of thinking has got the Jays and the Leaves (Leafs) many years of mediocrity.  I am an Oilers fan and know all about trading the franchise player.  Its hard but you get over it.

Anyway, Doc recently mused about the posibilty of leaving due to the failings of the team, what is he going to be feeling in two years after a couple more 4th place finishes?

The Leaves have figured out they need a rebuild, why can't the Jays?

Magpie - Friday, July 25 2008 @ 03:33 PM EDT (#189459) #
This seems so weird to me. The other day was the annversary of the Pine Tar Game, and Tim Kurkijian was looking back.

[Brett] says, without anger or bitterness, that, "I played 20 years in the major leagues, I did some good things, and the one at-bat I'm remembered for is an at-bat in July, not an at-bat in October like Reggie Jackson. Only in New York..."

Really? Could this possibly be true?

Maybe it's because I've been in Toronto all these years, and that's sure as hell not why we remember George Brett in these parts. Geez. He still scares the crap out of me.
westcoast dude - Friday, July 25 2008 @ 04:23 PM EDT (#189460) #
Totally agree with you on George Brett, Magpie. Scott Rolen reminds me of Clete Boyer, the Hot Corner Hero of the Yankees in the '60s. Batted .272 once, next best was .251, but poetry in motion. This weekend's series with the Mariners is crucial. I'm hoping for some slugfests. So far this week, Wilkerson, Overbay, and Scutaro are a pleasant surprise (small sample size) and Rios is reverting to his mean (2 homers and one blast to the warning track in the deepest corner of Camden Yards). If we get a miracle, it would be beyond otherworldly.
John Northey - Friday, July 25 2008 @ 05:12 PM EDT (#189462) #
John N., do really think that team you mention with a mix of rushed prospects and inconsistent bats is really going to do anything next year?  Come on really?

Actually, I think they have a better shot of doing something in 2009/2010 than they do in 2013 if they dump all they guys they can for any prospects they can get. 

The AL East has one superteam, where ownership/management/fans have joined together to create a monster (willing to spend, smart, willing to fill a park - in order) in the Red Sox.  They will be no worse than #2 for awhile as their team base for wins is probably at 95.  We have one former/potential superteam in the Yankees (owner appears about to go stupid, team has a lot of issues) with a base for wins around 90.  We have a young stud team much like the '83 Jays in the Rays but who knows how good a job their GM or owner will do this winter (do they open their wallet to fill holes, can he trade for the parts needed to go to the next level) who probably have a base for wins around 85.  And we have the Orioles.

The bases I list are +/- 10 wins (the luck factor).  I figure the Jays are around the 85-90 mark for base given their runs for/against and the level 3 standings at Baseball Prospectus.  That means, if the other teams in the AL east play to expectations and the Jays get some luck (for once) they could win (95 wins).  If just one team gets luck and the Jays do as well then they still could take the wild card.

Is this ideal?  Heck no.  I'd prefer the Jays being the 'superteam' ala 92/93.  However, tearing the team apart and rebuilding will not change much.  A few years from now odds are the Yankees will regain super status and the Sox will still be there.  The Rays could be in the middle of an amazing run (ala the 80's Jays) or could die off (ala the mid-90 Expos).  IE: the Jays could be able to, if all breaks right, shift from a base of around 87 wins to a base of 90 and still need luck on their side to make the playoffs.

Unless the Jays can go out and find a guy like Pat Gillick was in the 80's, namely someone who can rebuild and make a monster, plus get ownership to spend at the Red Sox level at least we just aren't going to see this team get a much higher base for wins.  We could go the Rays route and have #1 picks for a decade but I doubt anyone here wants to go through that.

Right now the Jays best bet is to stay as competitive as possible and hope MLB shifts things so more teams make the playoffs.  As to the Leaf comparison - they were the NY Yankees of hockey financially but the Pirates of hockey when it came to upper management.  Now they have to play in a salary cap situation, which means they have to rebuild as no other path is viable.  Also, unlike the Jays (or most teams in most sports) the Leafs don't have to worry about selling tickets or getting viewers.
Geoff - Friday, July 25 2008 @ 05:47 PM EDT (#189463) #
I hadn't read that much detail about what happened in the Pine Tar game until all these articles started coming out about it. I'm partial to the recent SI piece, but both have some detail I hadn't heard before. As an added bonus, the SI piece has video of the incident at the end.

Seems to me that Brett is much happier to be remembered for his Pine Tar Tirade than missing a World Series game due to hemorrhoids.

Also like the quotes from Tim McLelland, the plate umpire from that game, in an AP article:
“I knew he wasn’t going to hit me or run over me,” McClelland said. “If he did I’d probably own the Kansas City Royals now.”
and
“In my 26 years, he’s the player that’s been the best to the umpires"
And the article states "McClelland said the umpires made the right call, but the rule concerning pine tar was a bad one."

Wait a minute. Now didn't they make the wrong call entirely? Even though the bat was illegal, they shouldn't have ejected Brett from the game and called him out. Taking from Kaplan's piece on SI, American League regulation 4.23, said, "The use of pine tar in itself shall not be considered doctoring the bat. The 18-inch rule shall not be cause for ejection or suspension." And the final ruling was that the bat should not be used, but the play should be (and was) allowed to stand.

It was lost on me all these years that the home run was reinstated, based on what I'd been hearing about it. More interesting detail in the espn piece linked above, particularly with the quotes from Brett. He watched them finish the game from a hotel in New Jersey. I'm baffled. They spent less than fifteen minutes finishing this game, and they played no other game before or after it, and it was televised? Am I missing any detail there that would enlighten such a bizzare scenario?


Dave501 - Friday, July 25 2008 @ 05:56 PM EDT (#189464) #
John, i'm going from memory here, so forgive me if the details are sketchy, but i recall the Jays actually tried to get Rolen's right to leave rescinded on account of him having to waive a no trade clause to come in the first place, but they were rejected not by Rolen himslef, but by the CBA/MLB.  Therefor, Rolen will still have the right, even if at the time he may not have particularly wanted it, it wasn't his choice to waive it.  That is, he couldn't choose in advance not to have the right, but just because he has the right, he may still choose not to excercise it this offseason.
92-93 - Friday, July 25 2008 @ 05:58 PM EDT (#189465) #
Adam Lind batting 8th is absurd.
PeterG - Friday, July 25 2008 @ 05:59 PM EDT (#189466) #
I believe the Jays should sell high on Halladay providing that the expected return is there.
Magpie - Friday, July 25 2008 @ 07:08 PM EDT (#189473) #
Adam Lind batting 8th is absurd.

It absolutely is not.
Mike Green - Friday, July 25 2008 @ 08:39 PM EDT (#189475) #
Bobby Cox drove me crazy in 1985 by batting Jesse Barfield 8th most of the season, when it was perfectly clear to me that he had figured out the strike zone in 1984.  Lind batting 8th right now does not.  I am delighted that Cito gave him a chance to play every day. 

Shannon Stewart made a rehab start for the GCL Jays and went 2-2 today.

Smithers - Friday, July 25 2008 @ 09:14 PM EDT (#189476) #
Just stumbled upon a quote from yesterday's loser Daniel Cabrera about his butt kicking:

""It looked like everything I could throw out there, they could hit it -- like they know it's coming," Cabrera said. "It's tough. Early in the season, my fastball was moving a lot. I try to bring the same movement to the game, but sometimes it doesn't work. Today is one of those days. I tried to attack the zone and they're swinging and hitting it pretty good." "

It reminded me of a link that Magpie posted a while back to a piece written by Detroit reliever Todd Jones about tipping pitches, where Cito Gaston was mentioned prominently.

"When Cito Gaston was managing in Toronto, he had his bench pick apart the pitcher. One guy would study the pitcher's hands, one would study his feet, one his cadence between pitches.

When Roberto Alomar signed with Cleveland (after playing with the Blue Jays and Orioles), a funny thing happened. The Indians suddenly became good at studying pitchers. Derek Bell, another former Blue Jay, went to the Astros and the same thing happened. He used to tell me after an inning he could call every curve I threw. To this day, I still have a habit of looking toward third base before I throw a curve, and Bell could pick that up from left field. So you know others picked it up, too."

It would be completely unsurprising if part of the new hitting philosophy that Cito has brought to this year's version of the Jays is a better ability to read pitchers.  Worked like a charm yesterday! 

Mike Green - Friday, July 25 2008 @ 10:49 PM EDT (#189482) #
That's the way to make nice with Mr. Pythagoras.  I guess that Brandon League has the confidence of the manager.  Perhaps well-placed confidence despite all of League's troubles.
July 25, 2008: .500, or 8.5 back | 39 comments | Create New Account
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