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The headline says it all.

So the end result of the question of who should be in left field, Johnson or Stewart was finally answered with: none, Lind.
12 August 2008: Jays Release Stewart; D'Backs Trade for Dunn | 38 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
Geoff - Monday, August 11 2008 @ 03:51 PM EDT (#190477) #
Is it not headline worthy that Dbacks lose Hudson for season (again) with wrist injury; prodigal son to hit free agent market with health in doubt?
Chuck - Monday, August 11 2008 @ 04:54 PM EDT (#190482) #

How long before we get the "Dunn plays in a band box" business? His home/road OPS split this year is 847/964 (yes, better on the road). It's 929/871 for his career.


Glevin - Monday, August 11 2008 @ 05:16 PM EDT (#190483) #
Good picup for the D-Backs...Of course, they could have just held on to Carlos Quenting too. I'm not too crazy about Halladay's 130 pitches thrown the other day in a meaningless game. I know some pitchers can handle it, but there was no point in pushing him that hard. It's been a long time since I remember so many absolutely boring teams in baseball. Oakland, Cleveland, Toronto, Seattle, S.D., S.F.etc...are all just dull as anything except for a few starters that are fun to watch.
Magpie - Monday, August 11 2008 @ 07:13 PM EDT (#190486) #
I'm not too crazy about Halladay's 130 pitches

It got my attention too, although one of the the things that is most startling to me is that it actually does represent a career high.

I want to look into this a little in the days ahead- we have fairly complete pitch count data going back through 1988. Anyway, a quick peek found numerous 160+ games for Roger Clemens. Orel Hershiser actually threw 169 on the final day of the 1989 season for a fourth place Los Angeles team, and his shoulder broke down early the next spring. In Blue Jays lore, there is of course Al Leiter - he threw 163 pitches on a damp and chilly April evening in New York. He started to experience all kinds of problems quite soon afterward, and would require a couple of surgeries. However, the Yankees had prudently traded him to Toronto less than three weeks after that epic start.

Anyway Halladay's 130 pitches is tied for 52nd place among the pitch count data we have for Toronto pitchers.

It's beaten by:

Clemens (12 times, high 149)
Hentgen (8 times, high 137)
Cone (7 times, high 141)
Guzman (6 times, high 138)
Escobar (3 times, high 135)
Morris (2 times, high 144)
Leiter (2 times, high 136)
Carpenter (2 times, high 134)
W.Williams (2 times, high 134)
Key (141)
Flener (139)
Stewart (135)
Wells (133)
Clancy (132)
Candiotti (131)
Loaiza (131)

I surely did not expect to see Huck Flener make such a list. And it's striking how it's dominated by Clemens and Cone, who weren't even here that long. Use those mercenaries!
Chuck - Monday, August 11 2008 @ 07:22 PM EDT (#190487) #
And it's striking how it's dominated by Clemens and Cone, who weren't even here that long. Use those mercenaries!

We've all rented cars before. We know that the old rules go out the window.
Bankertuck - Monday, August 11 2008 @ 07:23 PM EDT (#190488) #

Let's get  rid of JP. I'm so sick of his STUPID signings


AWeb - Monday, August 11 2008 @ 07:25 PM EDT (#190489) #
For those expecting Steib to dominate that list, it's a fair bet he would have if the data was around, at least as I remember it. Surely his pitch counts exist for his no-hitter and near no-hitters at least (or someone with them on tape could just count...)?. As it is, he was estimated to have averaged 118 and 119 pitches per start in 1984 and 1985. So it's a good bet he exceeded 130 a dozen or so times in those years alone.
Flex - Monday, August 11 2008 @ 08:06 PM EDT (#190490) #
As I recall, one of those two Jack Morris occurrences came on Opening Day!

I think I'm right on that; I remember being appalled. (Though I can't remember if it was his first or second year with the club.)
Magpie - Monday, August 11 2008 @ 08:09 PM EDT (#190491) #
For those expecting Stieb to dominate that list, it's a fair bet he would have if the data was around

Very likely. These only include Stieb's last three seasons as a full-time starter. He just missed making the list, topping out at 129 in a CG loss to Oakland in July 1988. The no-hitter was 119, by the way. Which is actually a bit more than I expected. You don't throw as many pitches in low-hit games, for obvious reasons.
Magpie - Monday, August 11 2008 @ 08:15 PM EDT (#190492) #
Yes, that was Morris first game as a Jay. It was against Detroit, and I think he may have threatened Cito's family in the dugout if he took him out of the game!

I think Morris also wanted to set a tone.
Anders - Monday, August 11 2008 @ 08:26 PM EDT (#190493) #
Fun fact of the day: Brad Wilkerson is hitting .222/.310/.324 as a Jay in 218 PA.
Geoff - Monday, August 11 2008 @ 09:35 PM EDT (#190494) #
John Danks had a perfect game through 5.2 IP tonight before hitting Ellsbury with a pitch. Now working on getting through another nine batters without hitting any of them. 
Glevin - Tuesday, August 12 2008 @ 02:52 AM EDT (#190499) #
"And it's striking how it's dominated by Clemens and Cone, who weren't even here that long."

Clemens is one of those freaks of nature than just didn't get hurt. I wonder how many pitches Nolan Ryan threw in some of his games. He is said to have thrown a 259 pitches in a 12-inning game in 1974. Opponents of pitch counts tend to say "well, so-and-so didn't have a pitch count, and he had a long career" but I tend to think that's an exception rather than the rule. Some pitchers would get injured even if treated with baby gloves, but I can think of tonnes of examples where guys get hurt after throwing lots of pitches and I believe that throwing lots of pitches makes pitchers less effectively general in their next start. I understand taking the risk in the playoffs or in a tight race but not in this case. Halladay is AVERAGING 120 pitches a start over the last 4 starts. (his 4 highest pitch counts-119 to 130 have all come under Gaston) Maybe his arm can take it, but why risk it?

Magpie - Tuesday, August 12 2008 @ 03:12 AM EDT (#190501) #
Clemens actually had shoulder surgery in 1985, and Ryan had a long history of elbow problems. Which is really the thing that distinguishes successful major league pitchers from the others - they overcame their arm problems. Because about 98% of all pitchers will get 'em, no matter what you do, no matter how careful you are. We didn't do that to our arms when we were throwing rocks at bears.

I'm obviously not recommending 160 pitch workloads, especially after it worked out so great for Hershiser and Leiter. I don't know if I'd want see anyone under the age of 25 throwing even 130. In principle, it doesn't worry me nearly as much with a guy like Halladay who's no longer developing. Also in Doc's favour is that he works so damn quick and efficient - I think pitchers are more tired, and more in danger of hurting themselves, after about 150 minutes. Which is generally not something that comes up much with Doc.

Magpie - Tuesday, August 12 2008 @ 03:14 AM EDT (#190502) #
I'm so sick of his STUPID signings

Look on the bright side. He didn't sign Carl Pavano.
Magpie - Tuesday, August 12 2008 @ 03:31 AM EDT (#190503) #
He is said to have thrown a 259 pitches in a 12-inning game in 1974.

Yeah, Ryan wasn't exactly the most efficient pitcher who ever lived. We've only got the tail end of his career, where he has four games ranging from 141 to 146.

The game I'd love to know the pitch counts for is this one. Juan Marichal beat Warren Spahn 1-0, after Willie Mays hit a walkoff homer off Spahn.

In the bottom of the 16th inning.
Magpie - Tuesday, August 12 2008 @ 04:06 AM EDT (#190505) #
Hey, this is fascinating - actually has some early 1960s pitch counts. Very cool - they seem to involve only Dodgers or Phillies games (so alas - Marichal-Spahn is not one of them!) But it's something!

Some of the Dodgers logs go all the way back into the 1950s. Drysdale gets as high as 182?


Alas, nothing at all for Ryan until he turns 40. But in that 1974 game you mentioned, he faced 58 batters and there probably weren't too many first pitch outs (Nolan Ryan, after all!) - he struck out 19 and walked 10.

brent - Tuesday, August 12 2008 @ 05:39 AM EDT (#190507) #
I thought the plan was for Lind to force the club's hand and take over left field. He's done that and the rest doesn't matter on a team that can't get enough momentum going. I think I would have hated Reed Johnson keeping Lind out of the lineup or on the 25 man roster. Perhaps it is a blessing in disguise. However, JP definitely missed  this transaction that a lot of people thought would not work out.
Dave Till - Tuesday, August 12 2008 @ 07:50 AM EDT (#190511) #
I'd been hugely impressed by Cito's performance as manager until I discovered that he was overworking Halladay. 130 pitches is way too many. Arm injuries take a while to appear - if Doc gets hurt, it won't happen until next year.

I remember that 144 pitch shutout from Morris. I don't think he was ever the same pitcher after that - that outing did him in.

Geoff - Tuesday, August 12 2008 @ 08:13 AM EDT (#190512) #
Missing Longoria and now Carl Crawford, the Rays have become a prime Barry Bonds victim, er... candidate, for his services.

Worth a poll to gauge the believability here that such a move will happen?

John Northey - Tuesday, August 12 2008 @ 08:29 AM EDT (#190513) #
For Morris I doubt any one outting killed his career as he was getting up there by his Jay years and the reports I have read have said that arm injuries from overuse tend to occur at younger ages not older.  His playoff record had a 134 pitch count in 1984 and a 126 one for his legendary game (1991).  119 was his playoff peak as a Jay (forgot he allowed 3+ runs in all of his 4 playoff games here with the Jays going 1-3 in those games).

Morris had 3 other games between 120 and 126 pitches that season, just 2 games below 5 IP and 3 under 6.  The following year he peaked at 135 on August 1st (a 1 run complete game vs Detroit).  Interesting to note the Jays lost his last 4 games as a Jay in the regular season, then didn't use him past September 9th.

Geoff - Tuesday, August 12 2008 @ 08:32 AM EDT (#190514) #
After Detroit, the Jays are looking at Boston, New York, Boston, Tampa, New York, Minnesota,Tampa, Chicago, Boston, Baltimore, Boston, New York and finally Baltimore.

Quite the marathon to end the season. Conceivably, if the Jays managed some miraculous winning streaks, they are playing the right teams to make regular season interesting again. Sure, they are 12 games back of Tampa but Tampa is poised to fall like a stone. And it's well known how much the Jays are a pain in the Red Sox' side. They have four series left.

Just in case anybody wants to reserve time for bandwagon rides in September. I'm not saying the Jays are going anywhere in October, but they could make things interesting to watch.

Geoff - Tuesday, August 12 2008 @ 09:32 AM EDT (#190515) #
If not Bonds, maybe Shannon Stewart? Would make for a good Flashback Friday on September 5.
Magpie - Tuesday, August 12 2008 @ 09:33 AM EDT (#190516) #
Well, here's the highest listed pitch count I've come across so far, in my somewhat random wanderings through old Game Logs. On May 28, 1960 Sandy Koufax took a 3-2 lead into the bottom of the ninth at Wrigley, but gave up a two-out game tying homer to Frank Thomas (no wonder he's so slow, he must be 70 years old by now.) The game went on for more than four hours, and Koufax was finally pulled after walking the first two batters in the 14th. Don Zimmer singled off Ed Roebuck to drive in the winning run.

And 193 is a lot of pitches, even for 13+ innings.
canuckiwi - Tuesday, August 12 2008 @ 11:42 AM EDT (#190528) #

Here's an interesting bit of trivia for you, if anyone was wondering about Scott Richmond's durability potential.

This is a guy who was late to physically mature, and the metabolic differences between him and a guy who can grow a full beard at 13, is balding by 18 and flames out at 21, should be studied and understood much better by "baseball people," who tend to wrongly assume that every 18 or 21 yr old should be roughly at the same level developmentally.

Physiologically, a longer slower maturation process, has the tendency to develop an individual into one who not only lives longer, but  handles stressors better, is therefore more durable and enjoys better overall health than most.

While at Oklahoma State, Richmond [ at age 24,] threw 130, 140 & 150 pitches in three different games, [in one of them going 10 innings in relief, ] and while this is something never to be recommended in my opinion, he appeared to endure this workload without suffering any ill effects. While in his time with the Edmonton Cracker Cats, he pitched on a 4 man rotation all season, and on several occasions threw on only 3 days rest. Again not a situation that should be recommended, as the fatigue that this workload induced, reflected adversely on his second half statistics in 2007. Fatigue is understandable, but that's quite different from injury, and to date, Richmond has never suffered any upper extremity injury.

There is likely an intangible genetic component also, and possibly other factors, but to this physiologist, his slow and prolonged maturation process has and will continue in the long run, to work in his favor, with regards to durability, as pitchers across the leagues continue to break down with constant regularity.


jmoney - Tuesday, August 12 2008 @ 11:46 AM EDT (#190529) #
My goodness. No wonder Koufax walked away from the game stating he wanted to quit while he could still raise his arm to comb his hair.
Magpie - Tuesday, August 12 2008 @ 11:58 AM EDT (#190532) #
And yet it wasn't that workload that directly brought about Koufax's demise, although I'm sure it didn't do him any good. He actually injured his elbow running the bases. Sliding into second in August 1964.

It's not like he'd had a lot of practise sliding or anything. He was such an awful hitter, they probably had to tell him which direction to turn when he got to first.

Mike D - Tuesday, August 12 2008 @ 01:12 PM EDT (#190535) #

Arm injuries take a while to appear - if Doc gets hurt, it won't happen until next year.

Actually, Dave, I disagree.  Most arm injuries are immediate and violent.  Some pitchers try to pitch through it, so injuries aren't always disclosed for a while, but the odds are that if the 130-pitch game was going to injure Doc, it would have done so already.  (Not to say that 130 is a good idea.  But better him than anybody else.)

John Northey - Tuesday, August 12 2008 @ 01:28 PM EDT (#190537) #
Koufax has 113 for his 1965 perfect game (only game with pitch counts that year or in 1966), below 90 just twice in 1964, 4 times over 140 with one over 150.  1963 he hit 159 in his first start, 164 a few weeks later, 165 in a 12 inning effort in August but just 66 in a playoff tuneup for his final start of the season (5 shutout IP).  1962 saw 'just' 2 games at 150+ (one a 159 pitch complete game effort in a 13-6 game).  1961 had 2 over 150 including the 205 pitch effort.  1960 saw a 175 pitch effort, a 193, and a 150.  1959 saw just 2 150+ pitch efforts, 1958 saw a 159 on the final start for Koufax.  1957 had a 162 pitch effort (his second start of the season after a month mainly in the pen), none over 150 in 1956 and no game logs for 1955.

Total: 15 over 150 pitches over 9 years or about 1 1/2 per year.  Gulp.  Surprisingly enough there are no pitch counts for his playoff appearances.  I suspect his 1963 complete game 15K, 3 BB, 6 H effort had a lot though.

Now that was a different era eh?

I'm guessing due to the massive detail that B-R or retrosheet got scoresheets from someone who was very detailed - perhaps a Dodger broadcaster?

Anders - Tuesday, August 12 2008 @ 01:32 PM EDT (#190538) #
Canuckiwi, it's alright, you can just admit that you are secretly Scott Richmond.
smcs - Tuesday, August 12 2008 @ 01:45 PM EDT (#190540) #
The highest pitch count that is listed by is Stan William's 207-pitch outing on May 17, 1961 for the LA Dodgers.  I found it using bbref's Play Index.  You can set the search criteria to IP>0 and rank the events (in this case, it would be pretty well every pitching outing) by number of pitches thrown.

Mike Green - Tuesday, August 12 2008 @ 01:51 PM EDT (#190543) #
Alan Roth was with the Dodgers until 1964 as a statistician.  It seems that he did track every pitch.
subculture - Tuesday, August 12 2008 @ 04:19 PM EDT (#190555) #

Yikes, for a second, I thought the headline read 'Jays release Stewart, trade for Dunn' !!

I still think unless Gaston and the Jays produce a miracle finish this year, that JP's 'dun' with the Jays in the off-season.

scottt - Tuesday, August 12 2008 @ 07:54 PM EDT (#190567) #
Interesting game at Fenway.

29 year old knuckleballer Charlie Zink  is getting his first MLB start in replacement of Tim Wakefield.
Boston scored 10 runs in the first against Texas. Fieldman managed 2 strike outs to go along with 7 hits and 2 walks made worse by an error.
This could be a long one.

Anders - Tuesday, August 12 2008 @ 09:37 PM EDT (#190572) #
This could be a long one.

Indeed, it looks like. Texas has come back from a 10-0 deficit to take a 15-14 lead.

scottt - Tuesday, August 12 2008 @ 09:50 PM EDT (#190573) #
Yep, and that's only after 5 and a half.
Thomas - Wednesday, August 13 2008 @ 05:47 AM EDT (#190578) #
And, of course, Boston pulls it out 19-17.
scottt - Wednesday, August 13 2008 @ 06:22 AM EDT (#190579) #
That was predictable if you've watched any Rangers game this year. Their closer is out for the year.
Pitchers tend to struggle whenever you move them to the late innings. Their new setup guy was no exception.

Game time 3:58. The Yankees managed to beat that by going extra inning (4:22).

12 August 2008: Jays Release Stewart; D'Backs Trade for Dunn | 38 comments | Create New Account
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