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The ballot for pre-integration (pre 1947) is out as is the Ford Frick award that we push Tom Cheek for.

Click here for the pre-integration ballot, Click here for the Ford Frick one.

The pre-integration ballot is one that has been picked over a lot as these guys have been able to get voted in for, literally, decades but haven't been picked yet. Six former major league players, three executives and one umpire are on it this time. Bill Dahlen is generally viewed as the best player, a top shortstop in the pre-Ruth days he had 2461 hits and a 110 OPS+, very nice for a shortstop (Tony Fernandez had a 101 lifetime, 106 in Toronto for comparison) and had a solid rep for defense plus was the career HR leader when he retired with 84 (passed the next year by Honus Wagner, then Gavvy Cravath took the lead before Ruth redefined it) - bit of a surprise he isn't in yet. Hank O’Day is the umpire with the 2nd most WS appearances, including the first one in 1903 - obviously was well viewed in his day so again, an odd omission. Jacob Ruppert was the Yankees owner from 1915 to 1939 - he was the guy who gave up $100k to get Babe Ruth and saw the Yankees change from a loser (had yet to finish higher than 2nd) to THE YANKEES (11 WS appearances, 8 wins - more than all but 2 teams in all of baseball history).

The Frick award was listed almost a month ago - click here to see it. Tom Cheek is an obvious favorite around here, as would be Jaques Doucet, the French voice of the Expos and now of the Jays. Others who might take it away from the deserving two are Ken Coleman (Cleveland/Reds/Red Sox) and Bill King (Oakland) plus I could see Eduardo Ortega getting it as the Spanish voice of the Padres. Cheek, King, and Doucet were the fan vote top 3.

The regular player ballot will be officially released soon, and as anyone who has looked at the list of potential players knows, it will be a controversial one no matter what as this is the 'steroid/HGH ballot'. First timers include Bonds, Clemens, Sosa, Piazza who all have had at least some rumours about usage otherwise would be locks, plus Schilling and Biggio who would normally be locks, and guys who'd get their share of votes in Lofton and Wells not to mention repeaters in Morris, Bagwell, Palmeiro and Raines.
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Mike Green - Friday, November 02 2012 @ 11:39 AM EDT (#265089) #
The BBRef WAR count:

Bonds- 158, Clemens-133, Bagwell-77, Schilling-76, Walker-70, Trammell-67, Raines-66, Palmeiro-66, Lofton-65, Edgar-64, Biggio-62, McGwire-59, Piazza-58, Sosa-55

Everyone else is under 50.  WAR systematically underrates catchers and ace relievers.  Biggio rates so poorly over his career using BBRef WAR, because the Total Zone numbers  say that he was a very poor defender after age 35 (UZR has him as OK until a little later but DRS agrees with TZ). 

Sosa ought not to be a lock, leaving aside questions of PEDs, corking or whatever. 

WAR suggests that Walker, Trammell, Raines and Lofton were all more valuable players to their teams over their careers than McGwire and Sosa.  I agree with that, but it is certainly not the public perception. 

I want to put the following on my ballot : Bonds, Clemens, Bagwell, Schilling, Walker, Trammell, Raines, Lofton, Edgar, Biggio and Piazza.  That is 11 names, and that has never happened before for me. 

AWeb - Friday, November 02 2012 @ 11:54 AM EDT (#265090) #

This is one of the few HoF ballots where I would vote for significanly more than 10 guys. The old-timers, I think you covered the obvious ones pretty well, and I hadn't read about the umpire before - they put umpires in the HoF, but somehow refuse entry to all-star players? Weird...

My imaginary ballot - it should be noted that I don't care a whit about PEDs for this purpose: Bonds, Clemens, Piazza, Bagwell, Trammell, Raines, Biggio, Palmeiro, McGwire, Walker.

Given the option, I'd vote for Schilling, Martinez, and Sosa, maybe Lofton, maybe Wells, maybe McGriff. Aside from the first few (and the first Negro League ballot) , this must be the single greatest collection of players ever. Morris might go in, but he's not in the top 15 players, and he's not really that close.

Given that voters generally pick 4-7 players per ballot, I can see no one going in for a few years, with a huge backlog building up. I kind of hope this happens, because then maybe the HoF could figure out a better way to pick members than leaving it to the writers. Or have an open ballot (as many as you want), but kill eligibility to 1 year. No more "waiting for momentum to build". No more "I'll look at that guy later, I'm not sure". Just a simple simple "You'll never get a chance to vote for this guy again, so make you mind up now". Veterans/era committees have backfilled plenty of guys who were overlooked, the hall can have as many of those as they want. But please no more annual debates and moralisitc columns about the same guys over and over (Morris, Rice, Blyleven,Trammell, Raines, McGwire, soon to be Sosa, Bonds, Clemens, Piazza, basically anyone who doesn't make it this year). Ugh. I know the HoF lives for the debate, because that's what gets the eyeballs, but I'm pretty tired of it.

John Northey - Friday, November 02 2012 @ 12:32 PM EDT (#265091) #
I thought about waiting on the full player ballot until later, but knew everyone would be thinking about it - hard not to when talking HOF.

This year has been viewed as the 'nuclear' year as the PED issue comes to a head. Bonds & Clemens are inner circle HOF'ers with some argument for Piazza as his bat was amazing for anyone let alone a catcher. This year would've been a crazy ballot without PEDs being factored in.

Who would I vote for?
Clemens, Bonds, Piazza, Bagwell, Walker, Trammell, Raines, Palmeiro (3000 hits & 500 HR is hard to ignore), Biggio, McGwire...oops hit the 10 limit. Also would like to add Schilling (bloody sock plus was an ace for years), Sosa (600+ HR plus the HR chase make him a HOF storyline), Wells, McGriff (last two more due to memories they each produced as Jays to go along with solid careers), Lofton would be a debate for me as I never thought of him as a HOF'er but his stats say he is while Edgar Martinez is also on the edge for me.

Sadly the guy most likely to sneak in is probably Jack Morris with Biggio #2 on the likely list (no steroid rumours plus 3000 hits at 2B/CA/CF). Sigh. What I'm most curious about is who will drop off the ballot though - this type of ballot screams 'less than 5%' for deserving guys.

Next year you can add in Greg Maddux, Tom Glavine, Frank Thomas who all would be 1st ballot locks normally. Also likely future HOF'ers Mike Mussina (the single 20 win season and sub-300 wins will hurt him) and Jeff Kent (most HR for a 2B ever) who might end up waiting for the vet committee someday. The ballot after that has Pedro Martinez, John Smoltz, and Gary Sheffield who again would be locks normally plus Carlos Delgado who's 473 HR would get him a serious look if not in were it not the era it was. Then comes Griffey Jr & Trevor Hoffman (one lock, one likely).

Sheesh - what a mess that HOF ballot could be for awhile. Instead of a wonderful time for putting greats in it could be a mess of few in and more talk about who isn't put in.
rpriske - Friday, November 02 2012 @ 01:10 PM EDT (#265092) #

My Pre-Integration Ballot would include only one name: Bill Dahlen


My regular HoF ballot, if it were allowed, would include 13. I'll whittle it down...


Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Jeff Bagwell, Craig Biggio, Mark McGwire, Rafael Palmeiro, Tim Raines, Alan Trammell, Larry Walker, Edgar Martinez

The three who just get trimmed areL Fred McGriff, Dale Murphy, Bernie Williams

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