Batter's Box Interactive Magazine Batter's Box Interactive Magazine Batter's Box Interactive Magazine

Ohhkay .... so it's been an awfully long time since we created and published a Hall oF Names team here on Batter's Box. It's about time we changed that, hey? And no better reason to change up than to notice the adoration and adulation bestowed upon the greatness of a former Blue Jay second baseman in the recent Top Seasons In Jays History thread.

So now, all-Alomar ... no, wait, that wouldn't really work. There have only been three Alomars to play big league ball, all part of the same family (two generations), Roberto and the two Sandys ... so we'd cover the middle infield and behind the plate, often the toughest positions to fill on the field, but the rest of the diamond would be bare.  So let's honor Robbie Alomar instead with an All-Roberto Hall of Names team.  There have been two Hall of Famers (including Alomar himself, of course) and five additional All-Stars, so talent should be pretty ample.  Let's see ....

First, as always, a note on rules ... In this case, we are only going to use players who used "Roberto" as their given first name. So apologies to Luis Mercedes, Tom Silverio, Juan Agosto and Hank Izquierdo, all of whom could have made this team's bench. All the rest of our candidates are named Roberto or at least go by "Bobby," so given that ,,, away we go!


**indicates Hall of Famer
* indicates All-Star

C Bobby Ramos (1978-84; .190/4/17 in 103 fames over six years)
1B Bobby Bonilla* (.279/287/1173)
2B Roberto Alomar** (.300/230/1134, 474 SB)
SS Roberto Pena (also 3B/1B/2B;  .245/13/154, 1965-71)
3B Bobby Avila*  (.281, 80 HR, 78 SB; 1954 batting champ @ .341)
LF Bobby Estalella (.also 3Bl 282/44/309, 1935-45)
CF Roberto Kelly* (.290/124/585 over 14 years)
RF Roberto Clemente** (.317, 3,000 hits, 240 HR, 1305 RBI)
DH Roberto Petagine (.227/12/54, 1994-98, 2005-06)

IF Roberto Mejia (.219/10/40, 1993-95, ’97)
OF Roberto Ortiz (1941-44, ’49-50; .255/8/78)

SP Roberto Heredia Hernandez* (2006-12, CLE, 53-69)

CL Roberto Manuel Rodriguez Hernandez*, (67-71, 326 saves)
RP Bobby Munoz (11-22, 5.14, 1993-98; 7-5, 2.67 with ’94 PHI)
RP Roberto Rodriguez (4-3, 4.52, 7 saves, 1967, ’70)
RP Roberto Novoa (7-7, 4.51, 2004-06)
RP Roberto Ramirez (2-5, 7.69, 1998-99)
RP Roberto Rivera (0-0, 5.40 in 5IP with 1995 CHC)
RP Roberto Duran (1997-98 DET, 0-1, 6.58 in 31 games)
RP Roberto Vargas (0-0, 2 saves, 8.76 ERA, 1955)

Notes ... Well, let’s see … there have been just nine pitchers named “Roberto: in MLB history, and only one of them, current Indian Roberto Hernandez, has actually been primarily a starting pitcher … Here;s hoping for LOTS of high-scoring, long bullpen games, as the ‘bertos do have an eight-man pen headed by 326-save man Roberto “No, I’m not the same guy as the SP” Hernandez … The bench is certainly weak,, hey? … And the starting lineup, while complete, starts off like a ball of fire – Alomar, then Avila, followed by Clemente, Bonilla and Kelly … then, whoops, the lineup slides into non-conforming shapelessness …It’s interesting that five of our players carried the first name “Roberto” but all went by “Bobby.”  NO conclusions … just … interesting!

All-Roberto: Scary, then -- not so much! | 41 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
Mike Green - Monday, December 31 2012 @ 02:58 PM EST (#267560) #
I don't know what it is with the Robertos and the Robertses.  Lots and lots of second basemen.  Avila, Alomar, Bip Roberts, Brian Roberts.  Happy new year to the Hall of Names production and maintenance crew!
CeeBee - Monday, December 31 2012 @ 04:45 PM EST (#267564) #
Not as many Roberto's as I would have thought. A couple of pretty good ones though! Happy New Year as well to everyone.
John Northey - Monday, December 31 2012 @ 05:45 PM EST (#267565) #
Checking the minors for active Roberto's we have...
RF: Roberto Adolfo
RP: Roberto Barradas (all in Mexican League)
RP: Roberto Canache (22 and in a rookie league so near the end I suspect)
CF: Roberto Caro 821 OPS in Dominican league for Cubs at 18
LF: Roberto Contreras a 17 year old in the DOSL for Philly
3B: Roberto De La Cruz a 20 year old in A ball for St Louis
3B/1B: Roberto Duncan for Boston (rookie league)
SP/RP: Roberto Espinosa for Pittsburgh rookie league
SP/RP: Roberto Estrella for Atlanta
SP: Roberto Gomez in A ball for Tampa at 22

and many more - just went by alphabetical and said 'that's enough'. To see more go to

bpoz - Tuesday, January 01 2013 @ 09:09 AM EST (#267571) #
Maybe Roberto Osuna, one day.
Richard S.S. - Tuesday, January 01 2013 @ 12:00 PM EST (#267572) #
Roberto Osuna is a dominant pitcher, with very good stuff and getting better.   Chances are he's in Lansing for sure this season, possibly Dunedin.   It would not be a surprise if he reaches New Hampshire.   Right now, turning 18 in February, he's better than anyone already traded away.   He has much better stuff, at age 17 in Vancouver, than any of the much older "Big Three" did in Low A.   His stuff is good enough, he's young enough, to have a long enough MLB career to make the Hall of Fame.   Will he?   That's another story.   Does he belong on the list?   Soon.
hypobole - Tuesday, January 01 2013 @ 02:39 PM EST (#267576) #
"He has much better stuff, at age 17 in Vancouver, than any of the much older "Big Three" did in Low A."

I see someone's New Year resolutions had nothing to do with ceasing to make ridiculous proclamations.

What makes you think Osuna has better "stuff" than Sanchez? Could you find one talent evaluator, other than yourself, who believes that to be the case? Maybe someone who has actually seen them pitch?
Magpie - Tuesday, January 01 2013 @ 02:54 PM EST (#267577) #
It’s interesting that five of our players carried the first name “Roberto” but all went by “Bobby.

For years and years Pirates writers and broadcasters insisting on referring to Clemente himself as "Bobby." As late as the final hit of his career, you can still hear the Pirate broadcaster call him "Bobby." It may have been affectionate, but its certainly not what Clemente - who was both a man of enormous dignity and just a wee bit prickly - would have preferred. Which makes one wonder if some of the other "Bobbys" had that imposed on them as well.
Richard S.S. - Tuesday, January 01 2013 @ 04:10 PM EST (#267579) #

"He has much better stuff, at age 17 in Vancouver, than any of the much older "Big Three" did in Low A."   This says one thing.

"He has much better stuff than any of the much older "Big Three" did in Low A."   Means something else, if you ignore:

... at age 17 in Vancouver, ...

Everyone, who's anyone on prospects, has reams to say about Blue Jays prospects including Osuna.   It's accessible, so prove me wrong.

Compare Osuna Vancouver (A-) stats with the same stats of the "Big Three" in their time in Vancouver (being 1 to over 1.5 year older).   IMO (In MY Effing Opinion) I think he's better.   I can't say who has more upside, but he's better.

92-93 - Tuesday, January 01 2013 @ 04:41 PM EST (#267582) #
"It may have been affectionate, but its certainly not what Clemente - who was both a man of enormous dignity and just a wee bit prickly - would have preferred."

I wonder how Clarence feels about this.
hypobole - Tuesday, January 01 2013 @ 07:07 PM EST (#267584) #
Richard, if in your opinion Osuna has a better career than Sanchez I can't argue.

But as far as stuff (which has nothing to do with stats), Sanchez has "elite stuff" and an "electric arm". Comps by scouts include Justin Verlander "if everything breaks right". Sanchez' problem is the lack of control and command to harness his ace potential stuff.

Osuna does not have Sanchez stuff. No one predicts TOR potential, but rather #2 or #3 starter potential. What he does have is very good to excellent stuff combined with command/control beyond his years.

Mylegacy - Tuesday, January 01 2013 @ 08:56 PM EST (#267588) #

One day into the New Year and my main 2013 resolution has bit the dust. I resolved not to drink any Scottish beverage until at least January 3rd. Damn, foiled again - oh well - there's always 2014, n'est pas?

Fortunately, I also resolved that the Jays would make the playoffs in 2013 - at least that looks like a winner!

Richard S.S. - Tuesday, January 01 2013 @ 09:48 PM EST (#267589) #

Thank You!

I see, read, find stuff that interests me, and I love this site.  Because sometimes I like sharing this stuff,because I want some feedback.   I can understand when a reply message is basically an eff u message - those are tactless.   I understand NO YOU BLOCKHEAD, I DISAGREE, stuff too - that`s fun.   What I like is yes, I can see that or no I cannot.  Then, this however suggests...   An open discussion.    That`s enough.


I was comparing Osuna verses the "Big Three " in Vancouver.   With this site which briefly said:                                                                       

Aaron Sanchez turned 19 about two weeks into the 2011 rookie-league season, and he got 42.2 innings at Bluefield, and 11.2 in Vancouver. The next season he opened the year in Lansing.(as a 19 year old, still, for the first half of the season).

Noah Syndergaard, as an 18 year old for almost all of the 2011 season, threw 32 innings in Bluefield, 18 in Vancouver, and 9 in Lansing. Then he spent essentially his whole age 19 season in Lansing.

Osuna had 24 in Bluefield and 19.2 in Vancouver, at age 17. If the Jays follow their previous pattern and advance him to Lansing he'd be almost a year and a half younger than Syndergaard, who was a couple of months younger than Sanchez. That's impressive. He has above average stuff, a clean delivery, and reasonable control. As he refines his command he has a solid chance to be just as highly regarded as the top 2 here..

Now that suggests I may not be right, but I may not be wrong either.   Most sites are about the same and yet different.  I just think it`s possible Osuna becomes our number one prospect soon. 

Mylegacy - Tuesday, January 01 2013 @ 11:04 PM EST (#267591) #

Osuna is indeed a precocious prospect. At 15 he was pitching in the Mexican Pro League and at 17 he was tearing up Vancouver - all true. Personally, I have him as our number 2 prospect now just after Sanchez. Scouts say about Osuna that he is terrific as he is now - but - because of his size and body type has little more "projection." Obviously, as he gets older he'll become more polished - however the "scouts say" they expect little "improvement" in his stuff. How will HiA, and AA hitters handle this nearly finished prospect? Time will tell.

I expect him to do very well - as do the scouts - it's just that they don't see any non-incremental improvement coming from him. Hope you're right and he passes Sanchez because the scouts are wrong and he finds "growth in his stuff" the scouts didn't think was there. For now however - I too say Sanchez is the better prospect - HOWEVER - Sanchez is also flawed and if he can't get control and command his "projection" as a better bet than Osuna might not come true. Two very nice trinkets for the Jays (and their fans) to watch over the next few years.

John Northey - Wednesday, January 02 2013 @ 12:50 AM EST (#267592) #
Osuna is a guy who AA will mean a lot to - that is where his extra pro experience will be tested against guys with years of experience as well.  In low A you see all kinds of guys who are advanced slaughter the opposition (especially pitchers) but who flop in more advanced leagues where hitters have seen pitchers with control of more than one or two pitches. 

I'm glad the Jays got Osuna, but getting too excited about a guy who has yet to hit AA is dangerous in baseball, especially with pitchers.

For example, I remembered the Expos having a few guys like that and here they are...
Bob Sudo - 1.66 ERA  over 189 2/3 IP in A ball (two teams, one in the FSL and one in the Midwest) at 22 - had a total of 51 2/3 IP in AA with a 7.14 ERA and out of baseball by 25.
Dan Freed - 0.67 ERA (yes, sub 1) over 121 1/3 IP in the NYP League, his first pro year at 22 - at 23 he had a 2.29 ERA in the Midwest (A), at 24 2.00 in the FSL (171 IP), at 25 in AA he had a 4.32, then a 2.70 between two different AA teams the next year (Cin & Det teams) before ending his career. Always wondered why he didn't get more of a shot, he was 6'1" so tall enough but his 5.5 K/9 kept him down I guess.
Danny Leon - 1.38 ERA in A-/A at 21 (130 IP), got 18 IP in the majors with a 5.89 ERA, BB/9 in AAA lifetime was 7.2 (51 IP)

Just a few examples, none as young as Osuna but the point is how stats at the low levels can be deceptive.  Freed, iirc, was a college kid who knew how to pitch early on but didn't have the heat needed to survive at higher levels (at least as far as MLB teams were concerned).

For the Jays you could check Clayton Andrews who in 1998 had a 2.28 ERA in A ball at 20, 10.7 K/9 looking like a great prospect.  5.62 ERA in AAA lifetime, 8 games in the majors for the Jays in 2000 at 22 with a 10.02 ERA.  A 3rd round pick out of high school he never reached 7 K/9 after that great age 20 season.  I'm sure others could produce a long list of others who looked good in the minors at one time who flopped at AA/AAA/majors.
hypobole - Wednesday, January 02 2013 @ 09:41 AM EST (#267594) #
John, that is why going only by stats to project young pitchers is a waste of time. As you mentioned with Freed, and seemingly Sudo, older college guys will often dominate young hitters if they can locate their below average stuff, then sruggle as they climb the ladder.

What has changed between then and now is the proliferation of information on the net. Did you ever see info like this back in the 90's, because I sure didn't:
John Northey - Wednesday, January 02 2013 @ 10:09 AM EST (#267595) #
You'd see stuff sort of like that in Baseball America back then, but it was extremely limited.  The net really has jumped the amount of info.  Still, a guy with a sub 1 ERA over more than 100 IP has to catch your eye. 

Stats are what we mainly have, and generally if a pitcher cannot dominate the lower levels he will have troubles later on.  I think its been shown that guys need a high K/9 figure in the low minors to have a real shot at the majors - if you cannot strike out low A hitters then you will be eaten alive as you climb the ladder.  For example, Jamie Moyer (not a flame thrower by any means) in his first pro season had a 10.3 K/9 figure in low A.

hypobole - Wednesday, January 02 2013 @ 10:43 AM EST (#267597) #
John, I used to buy BA at the newstands back in the 90's and I never read half the scouting terms McDaniel used in the one Fangraphs article.
It's only the past few years I've learned terms like Hutch "throwing across his body", Alvarez "pronating his wrist" or Wojo's "violent finish".

92-93 - Wednesday, January 02 2013 @ 10:52 AM EST (#267598) #
I think it's silly to get excited about Osuna's age relative to his development level considering what the scouts say about his mature body and lack of a future physical projection. He SHOULD be dominating hitters at the lower levels. If Osuna were 60 pounds lighter those numbers might matter.
hypobole - Wednesday, January 02 2013 @ 11:44 AM EST (#267599) #
I think you're being too harsh on the kid. Sure his lack of projection/body type means he won't add much if anything in velocity, but it has little or nothing to do with his advanced slider and change.

As Kiley points out, Osuna would be the 1st highschooler off the board if he were eligible for the draft, this opinion taking into account both the present and the future.
Mike Green - Wednesday, January 02 2013 @ 11:51 AM EST (#267600) #
It is the combination of present stuff, command and presence on the mound, and age and developmental level that make Osuna such an exciting and interesting prospect.  He is obviously not quite where Felix Hernandez was at the same point in his career, but there is a decent chance that he will be a good major league pitcher at age 20 and you can't say that about too many players.  Normally, the evaluation of the soft skills of a 17 year old pitcher is extremely tentative and qualified, but in Osuna's case, it seems that everyone is of the view that he has the makeup and presence of a major league pitcher. 

The club has a process for developing young pitchers, which probably makes sense in general but might not necessarily be appropriate for someone like Osuna. 

92-93 - Wednesday, January 02 2013 @ 12:16 PM EST (#267601) #
Not sure how that was taken as being harsh on the kid. I was being harsh on the idea that we should get excited about a 17 year old because he's pitching at a certain level. Every prospect is different and usually when you get excited about a player's performance because of his age it's because of the projected improvement, not merely because he's playing at a level way above his age group. Everybody was pumped about Anthony Gose when he was in the FSL because he was holding his own at 19 AND had tons of future projection.

The draft comment from McDaniel is certainly interesting and encouraging though. If Osuna can add one consistent tick to his fastball we may have a beast on our hands, but if he's maxed out sitting 89-93 it probably doesn't bode well for his future chances at being a front line SP.
92-93 - Wednesday, January 02 2013 @ 12:21 PM EST (#267602) #
"The club has a process for developing young pitchers, which probably makes sense in general but might not necessarily be appropriate for someone like Osuna."

Please elaborate. Are you not a fan of Osuna pitching 3 and eventually 4 innings in consistent starts over a full season, like the Lansing trio did? What would you do?
92-93 - Wednesday, January 02 2013 @ 12:26 PM EST (#267603) #
Google has led me to a few reports that have Osuna hitting 94-95 and as high as 96. I wonder if he was a little tired by the time instructs rolled around, which is why McDaniel had him at only 89-93 that day.
hypobole - Wednesday, January 02 2013 @ 01:04 PM EST (#267604) #
Sitting and hitting.

FWIW, only 9 qualified MLB starters averaged over 93 with their fastball. RHP's Grienke averaged 92.3, Anibal Sanchez 91,5, Kuroda 91.3, Matt Cain 91.1, Jered Weaver 88.0.
Richard S.S. - Wednesday, January 02 2013 @ 02:31 PM EST (#267605) #
Osuna pitched more than 3 innings in starting in Vancouver.  When you take # of innings pitched in Spring Training, # of innings pitched in Regular MiLB season and # of innings pitched in Instructional, it's possible Osuna needs to pitch 4 and then 5 innings starting next year in Lansing.
John Northey - Wednesday, January 02 2013 @ 03:09 PM EST (#267606) #
Checking B-R I see Osuna had 19 2/3 IP at 16 in Mexico, 43 2/3 IP last year between Bluefield and Vancouver.  Probably slated for 80-100 this year in Vancouver or Lansing.  Over 15 starts (Vancouver) that would be 5 1/3 to 6 2/3 a start, over 27 starts (Lansing) that would be 3-4 innings a start.  So I guess it depends what level the Jays put him at.  Given he is just turning 18 in February I wouldn't be surprised by either option - Vancouver to keep his challenge per start low but up his innings per start, or Lansing to increase the competition and spread his workout throughout the season (5 months) instead of limiting it to 3 months.  Did he pitch in winter league this year?  If so then Vancouver would be my bet, if not then Lansing.
Mike Green - Wednesday, January 02 2013 @ 03:16 PM EST (#267607) #
I'd aim for 130 innings out of Osuna in A ball this year, 65 innings in Lansing and 65 innings in Dunedin, and would have him starting only.   
hypobole - Wednesday, January 02 2013 @ 03:31 PM EST (#267609) #
"Did he pitch in winter league this year?"

No, but as per the Kiley article he pitched in the fall instructional league, which typically is about a month and a half in Sept/Oct.
Richard S.S. - Wednesday, January 02 2013 @ 04:29 PM EST (#267611) #
If Osuna pitched, let's say, a total of 75 innings in 2012, should be pitching 100 -110 Max innings in 2013.   Isn't 130 excessive?   Or, do we have to make a large increase one year, to make him MLB-ready soonest?
Mike Green - Wednesday, January 02 2013 @ 06:30 PM EST (#267612) #
Every pitcher is a little different.  Dwight Gooden threw 75 innings in Rookie League and low A ball at age 17 and then 191 innings in high A at age 18, followed by 218 innings in the majors at age 19 and 276 the following year.  Felix Hernandez threw 69 innings in low A ball at age 17 and then 149 in high A and double A at age 18. Age 18 is not a bad time to ramp it up a bit for a pitcher with the repertoire and build that Osuna has. 
bpoz - Wednesday, January 02 2013 @ 06:38 PM EST (#267613) #
Cheers everyone & Happy New Year. This fruity liqueur seems to be doing the job.

Let me tell you about Fernando Valenzula. This is my version, in time the truth will come out by the more knowledgeable Bauxites. He was a 20 year Mexican pitcher for the LAD that threw a screwball with his eyes rolled back I believe. By incredible luck he won a lot of awards. I think he flamed out and did not make the HOF.

I would be happy if R Osuna was as good, I think. IMO the Mexican league could be a screwball league.
Richard S.S. - Wednesday, January 02 2013 @ 06:41 PM EST (#267614) #
Thanks Mike.   I wasn't sure when and with who to do that kind of ramp up of innings.
Magpie - Wednesday, January 02 2013 @ 07:07 PM EST (#267616) #
I wonder how Clarence feels about this.

Differently. Cito is what his friends call him. And it's one thing to go by a nickname, as Ed Ford, Dorrel Herzog and George Anderson also did, and another thing to have your name changed in what might feel like a bit of cultural imperialism.
Jonny German - Thursday, January 03 2013 @ 07:32 AM EST (#267621) #
On that topic, a question for 92-93: Why do you refer to him as Clarence?
Lylemcr - Thursday, January 03 2013 @ 04:08 PM EST (#267631) #

When I looked at TSN today, it showed the strike

I see one of the players sitting behind Fehr is wearing a Blue Jays hat.  Foreshadowing :)


Magpie - Thursday, January 03 2013 @ 10:41 PM EST (#267649) #
Why do you refer to him as Clarence?

The only person who has referred to Gaston as "Clarence " since he acquired the "Cito" moniker as a teenager is... Paul Beeston.

So there you go. Mystery solved. 92-93, your cover is blown. We know you're not wearing socks....
92-93 - Thursday, January 03 2013 @ 11:49 PM EST (#267651) #

I wanted it to be clear my criticisms of Mr. Gaston had nothing to do with race, so I started calling him Clarence.

"I'm always going to be suspicious when a 66 year old black man is universally called by a nickname rather than his surname. I'm old enough to be paranoid and self-questioning about these things and so I don't do that. I also like to be contrary."

92-93 - Thursday, January 03 2013 @ 11:50 PM EST (#267652) #

Shhhh...don't ruin a good thing Magpie. Who else will rail against me if I'm outed? None of you kids.

Jonny German - Friday, January 04 2013 @ 02:16 AM EST (#267656) #
"I wanted it to be clear my criticisms of Mr. Gaston had nothing to do with race, so I started calling him Clarence."

Thanks for the explanation.

Maybe it's just me, but whenever I see you write "Clarence" it feels to me like utter disdain.
Magpie - Friday, January 04 2013 @ 12:58 PM EST (#267675) #
I'm always going to be suspicious

Everyone told me I was over-reacting. And hey - I probably was.
Dewey - Friday, January 04 2013 @ 03:51 PM EST (#267687) #
So, Magpie, you freely confess to being suspicious, paranoid, self-questioning, contrary, and with a tendency to over-react.  Hence you’re the very paragon of a bauxite.  Are you now bragging as well?
All-Roberto: Scary, then -- not so much! | 41 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.