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Can Buehrle continue his run as the Jays best starter? In April he looked like he was washed up.

Melky gets the day off to rest his legs, Bonifacio gets his first start since the all-star break. Dan Straily for the A's on Jewish heritage night.
Game Thread 7/30 at Oakland | 59 comments | Create New Account
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Richard S.S. - Tuesday, July 30 2013 @ 10:51 PM EDT (#277297) #
He's coming off a complete game shutout win. At least 7.0 IP with under 3 Runs gets him traded. Someone will make A.A. an offer he can't refuse. If they don't, more fool them. Now the Red Sox have Peavy, fire A.A.
Thomas - Tuesday, July 30 2013 @ 11:54 PM EDT (#277299) #
Now the Red Sox have Peavy, fire A.A.

I didn't know A.A.'s job was contingent on which Jake Peavy played for.

Richard S.S. - Wednesday, July 31 2013 @ 12:16 AM EDT (#277300) #
1) If Peavy goes to any Team outside the A.L. East, I'm disappointed but basically "who cares".
2) When Peavy comes to the A.L. East to a Team not named Toronto, I'm pissed because it just another difficulty Toronto must face, one that could have been avoided.
3) Anyone not worried is not that much of a Fan.
John Northey - Wednesday, July 31 2013 @ 12:34 AM EDT (#277302) #
Peavy has been good, but this year he is a 100 ERA+ pitcher, last year a 128 but the 2 years before that was 93 and 88.  His HR/9 rate this year is 1.6 which is scary high (just barely below Josh Johnson's 1.7).  My gut says 'watch out' with him - he is a high risk of being no better than Buehrle or Dickey have been this year.  For a team on the edge of the playoffs he should help, but the Jays need a lot more and if we're going for lottery tickets we already have lots here.

Now, if the Jays could trade/extend someone like Tim Lincecum that could be interesting as his HR/9 rate jumped but just to 1.1 per 9, while his K/9 has stayed over 9 in every single season he has played.  His walks scare me, but he is an easy one to see being an ace still.  Would I just straight trade for him?  No, not without an extension for at least one more season unless you were just giving up salary (ie: Johnson who I cannot see the Jays making a qualifying offer to at the moment).

eudaimon - Wednesday, July 31 2013 @ 12:37 AM EDT (#277303) #
What's so great about Peavy? He's has an over 4.2 ERA three of the last four years (and over 4.5 in two of those). He's also been injured a lot, pitching over 110 innings only once in the last 4 years (not including this year, though he's still unlikely to finish over 120-130).

Basically, who cares?

Richard S.S. - Wednesday, July 31 2013 @ 01:29 AM EDT (#277304) #
At least people are paying attention.
Now, perhaps you might suggest a worthwhile acquisition A.A. might make.
Paul D - Wednesday, July 31 2013 @ 07:08 AM EDT (#277310) #
Seems to me that Buerhle is starting to look like a guy you might want to keep, if you want to compete next year. 
scottt - Wednesday, July 31 2013 @ 07:14 AM EDT (#277311) #
Or maybe he's starting to look like someone who can be traded if you want to escape his overblown salary.
Paul D - Wednesday, July 31 2013 @ 07:42 AM EDT (#277312) #
But scottt, trade him for what?  Of the 5 spots in the rotation, there are easily 2 (Johnson and Redmond) who are much much bigger question marks than Buerhle.  I just don't see the return for Buerhle being big enough to open up yet another hole in the rotation. 
John Northey - Wednesday, July 31 2013 @ 09:04 AM EDT (#277313) #
One big question going forward is what budget will Rogers give AA to work with.  Buehrle is very expensive and likely to be a good #3/4 starter or a weak #2 (100 ERA+, 200 IP is a reasonable estimate, but to expect more is risky).  With his making $18 mil next year and $19 mil the year after that is an expensive #3/4 starter.  For 2014 the Jays already have $110 mil committed plus Rasmus ($4.7 mil this year, probably looking at $8-10 next year at least), with Cecil, JPA, and Rogers going to arbitration for the first time.  This is not factoring in the free agents - Davis & Johnson, or Janssen's option ($4 mil).  That pushes the Jays up to $125-130 mil easily without replacing Johnson or Rasmus.  I don't see a $150 mil payroll next year so if AA wants some spending money he'll need to trade someone and if Buehrle can be traded now without eating cash then that might be the best idea.   Others over $10 mil next year are Bautista ($14), Reyes ($16), Dickey ($12) with Encarnacion ($9), Morrow ($8), Romero ($7..75) and Cabrera ($8) close.  So to free up cash that is where you have to do it and Buehrle is probably the easiest to trade right now without eating cash while saving a bundle.  Cabrera would be smart to trade too if someone wants him but the rest I don't see as easily traded or desired to be traded (IE: they are either well worth it or so far from it as to need the Jays to eat the contract).
greenfrog - Wednesday, July 31 2013 @ 09:36 AM EDT (#277314) #
Great trade by Boston. Peavy gives them a solid, experienced SP, controllable through 2014, and at a time when starting pitching is scarce. They hold on to all their top prospects (using their financial flexibility to absorb Peavy's contract without a second thought), while selling high on Iglesias.

Toronto's main opponents in the East are currently running circles around the Jays.
Paul D - Wednesday, July 31 2013 @ 09:46 AM EDT (#277315) #
Greenfrog, agreed that it seems like a good trade... the weird thing is that the Red Sox fans I've seen online (at primer anyways) seem to really hate this deal for the Red Sox. Let's hope that they're right.
Beyonder - Wednesday, July 31 2013 @ 10:06 AM EDT (#277316) #
Having told the fans to expect nothing less than a winner, I think Rogers is pot-committed at this point John. If they want to maintain the momentum in attendance, merchandise sales, and TV ratings, then either the team will have to finish very strong, or some sort of trade or FA splash will probably need to be made. I just don't see how they can come back with the same team and ask the fans to pony up again. As much as this year has been a failure on the field, it has been an unqualified success from a business perspective.

I would love to see Melky traded, mainly to make way for Kevin Pillar. In a down year for prospects, I can't believe he's not getting more buzz. He's not only advancing rapidly through each level of the minors, but also getting better at each successive stop.
eudaimon - Wednesday, July 31 2013 @ 10:27 AM EDT (#277317) #
Peavy has had a pretty easy schedule. Only 5 of his 13 starts have come against top 15 teams in RS (1 against TB, CLE, LAA, ATL and DET). He has only one matchup against an AL East opponent (TB). Yeah, it'll be interesting to see how this all works out. I'm not to concerned long term I must say.

Looking at the stats our Blue Jays are 7th in runs scored which is pretty good. If only the starting pitching...

greenfrog - Wednesday, July 31 2013 @ 10:37 AM EDT (#277318) #
Meddling by ownership can be scary. Apparently Cashman wanted to sign Russell Martin and Nate Schierholtz in the off-season. Instead ownership preferred to invest in a two-year deal for Ichiro...that could end up being the difference between playoffs and no playoffs for the Bombers.
Lylemcr - Wednesday, July 31 2013 @ 11:32 AM EDT (#277319) #

Peavy is transitioning into a #3\4 starter.  As a 32 year old, his stats are sliding to .."meh".  I would rather see what the prospects would have to offer. 

Lylemcr - Wednesday, July 31 2013 @ 11:35 AM EDT (#277320) #
BTW, Delabars striking out the side in the 8th was truly impressive
John Northey - Wednesday, July 31 2013 @ 12:21 PM EDT (#277321) #
Good point Beyonder on the Jays being committed at this point with fan support jumping.  As I said in another thread the Jays are up 3,789 fans per game in attendance, the 2nd biggest jump in MLB behind the Orioles who reached the playoffs last year for the first time in a long time and also are playing well this year.  If the hope of doing well and not doing well could goose attendance like that, what will actual winning do?  Think about it, after an ugly 7 game losing streak the Jays were at 24k for 2 games against Houston, then over 30k on Sat/Sun vs Houston.  Baltimore, a team actually doing well, playing Boston - a big draw - had just 32,891 on Sunday vs the Jays getting 31,634 for a game vs Houston.  Imagine if the Jays were doing what Baltimore is (5 games out of first, but in playoff position) and was playing Boston last weekend - it would've easily been a sellout.

Rogers hopefully sees this and is willing to let AA go to $150 this winter, but if you can clear out another $10-20 mil of salary it would be a lot easier to go get a big gun this winter.  Be it Lincecum, Cano (oh would that be sweet, but super unlikely) or someone else via trade.  Buehrle right now might be trade-able ala Wells after he had a good year despite the dollars remaining.  AA should strike while the iron's hot and (hopefully) use the money wisely to set up this team for 2014/2015 before the Yankees can recover.
Gerry - Wednesday, July 31 2013 @ 12:42 PM EDT (#277322) #

According to Jason Stark the only player the Jays are looking to move is Bonifacio.  I find that strange.  There is a log jam in the bullpen.  You have impending free agents like Davis and DeRosa.  Plus there could be other deals. 

This suggests that AA is still all in on this team being good enough to win next season.

Lylemcr - Wednesday, July 31 2013 @ 01:00 PM EDT (#277323) #

I like this idea

Kendrick would be a nice solid 2bagger.  Then, this off season, the Jays need to just rethink what they want to do about starting ptiching.  I think the offense would be good enough. 

I kind of would like to see the Jays put some of the guys in the minors up to see what they can do.  (like Nolin). 

Lylemcr - Wednesday, July 31 2013 @ 01:10 PM EDT (#277324) #

I find it funny that in one thread we are pissed that we didn't get Peavy and in another thread we should trade Beurhle.  Statistically speaking, aren't they very similar the last three years?  I think we would have to give up more to get Peavy then we would get back for Beurhle.  I also think that Beurhle's pitching style is more likely to continue success, I think Peavy is trending in the wrong direction.

eudaimon - Wednesday, July 31 2013 @ 01:16 PM EDT (#277325) #
Agreed. Buehlre is also a much better bet to make 32 starts a year. It's pretty lateral, arguable a downgrade, to trade for Peavy, especially considering he hasn't proved he can hold up against the offences of the AL East.

I would like to see a trade for Kendrick.

finch - Wednesday, July 31 2013 @ 01:17 PM EDT (#277326) #
Rangers have inquired about the availability of Bautista. My guess is that AA asks for Profar, Odur, and Martin Perez as a start. Never will happen but would love to hear the final offer on him.
John Northey - Wednesday, July 31 2013 @ 01:27 PM EDT (#277327) #
Kendrick is very solid offensively - I'd say a 95 OPS+ would be the bottom end, 120s the high for him with 105-110 the expected area.  He is 5.2 UZR/150 lifetime at 2B, 1.4 this year so solid defense and has played 1B and LF and 3B in emergency situations it seems so a bit of flexibility.  In his age 29 season, signed for age 30 and 31 so not unreasonable to hope for him to stay stable and makes under $10 mil each of those years (barely).  Aaron Hill is one of his most similar on B-R which is interesting.  Wonder what the Angels want for him?
Ducey - Wednesday, July 31 2013 @ 01:58 PM EDT (#277328) #

I am not excited about a trade for Kendrick.  He would be an upgrade at 2B (although not as much as you would think) but would no doubt cost some top prospects and /or some starting pitching.  The Jays don't have either to give up.


You can always upgrade in the offseason.

Ryan Day - Wednesday, July 31 2013 @ 02:07 PM EDT (#277329) #
Strange that AA would move Bonifacio now, when the playoffs are nearly out of reach. Bonifacio was a big contributor to the hole the Jays dug themselves, but I don't see the harm in giving him playing time now to see if there's anything there. Maybe he can take over Davis' pinch-running & 4th outfield role, though I'd definitely be sad to see Davis go.
Mike Green - Wednesday, July 31 2013 @ 02:18 PM EDT (#277330) #
The Tigers are apparently interested in one of the Blue Jay left-handed relievers.  That's fine.  I'd like to see Nolin get 1/2 a year in the pen anyways...
greenfrog - Wednesday, July 31 2013 @ 02:21 PM EDT (#277331) #
Peavy has a better ERA+ (100) than anyone in the Jays' rotation. The starting pitching market is very weak. He was very good last year and doesn't walk anyone). He's controllable next year, but isn't under contract beyond 2014 (both positives).

He doesn't have to be great, only reasonably durable / crafty / effective. You can never have enough starting pitching, as teams like Toronto, LA (both teams), Texas and other clubs have discovered. I don't see how fans of a team that has started the likes of Laffey, Ortiz, Wang, Romero and Germano this year, and whose best starter has been the veteran Buehrle, can get on the Red Sox (14 games ahead of the Jays, and farm system virtually undepleted) for this one.
Mike Green - Wednesday, July 31 2013 @ 02:37 PM EDT (#277332) #
Your lineup for today:

Reyes-SS Izturis-2B Bautista-RF Encarnacion-DH Lind-1B Rasmus-CF Davis-LF Thole-C Lawrie-3B

We'll see if anyone gets pulled out of the game after the first inning, but most likely it means that Bonifacio/Cabrera/Arencibia or a pitcher would be the possible players going the other way in any trade.

sam - Wednesday, July 31 2013 @ 02:43 PM EDT (#277333) #
I don't know a lot about the players the Diamondbacks got back from the Padres and I understand Ian Kennedy hasn't be great this season, but did the Diamondbacks really only get a reliever, a relief prospect, and a second round bonus draft pick for a guy who was considered one of the better pitchers in baseball last year?  I mean, shouldn't this be a trade AA makes?
Mike Green - Wednesday, July 31 2013 @ 02:55 PM EDT (#277334) #
I don't know.  The Blue Jays have Dickey and Johnson on top of Buehrle. You have to first figure out what you are doing with Johnson.  If you are pretty sure that you won't have him (and his salary) in 2014, it makes sense to go after a pitcher like Kennedy.

Kennedy would probably post an ERA between 4.5 and 5 in the AL East, taking into account his performance over the last 2 years.  That has some value, but not a huge amount.

whiterasta80 - Wednesday, July 31 2013 @ 02:56 PM EDT (#277335) #
Yes we should have been in on Kennedy.

Actually this reeks of AA's failure to pull the trigger on a Mat Latos deal. Thank God we didn't add 350 innings, 320 Ks, and a 118 ERA+ at 5.25 Million these past 2 years. It was really worth hanging on to Snider, Gose, Jiminez and Hutchinson.

China fan - Wednesday, July 31 2013 @ 02:59 PM EDT (#277336) #
Do you have a credible source for your claim that the Jays could have obtained Latos with that package?
Mike Green - Wednesday, July 31 2013 @ 03:01 PM EDT (#277337) #
The Cardinals are looking for a catcher.  I wonder how much more they would require in order that Kolten Wong could be liberated.  Would a good reliever, Bonifacio and Arencibia do it? 
greenfrog - Wednesday, July 31 2013 @ 03:07 PM EDT (#277338) #
My guess is that San Diego wanted more talent for Latos - probably at least one or two top prospects (Syndergaard, d'Arnaud, maybe Marisnick). Gose was well-regarded at the time but was considered raw and there were questions about his bat. Teams seemed most interested in one of the big three pitching prospects. When the A's were shopping Gio, they reportedly asked that Syndergaard be included (per Blair I believe).
greenfrog - Wednesday, July 31 2013 @ 03:50 PM EDT (#277340) #
One of the frustrating aspects of this season is the underperformance by players who might have been useful trade bait (Arencibia, Johnson, Bonifacio, Romero, Cabrera, Gose). At this point, the Jays can't do much more than move these players for salary relief and/or fringy prospects.

The Jays are probably hoping to deepen the lineup with an upgrade or two and that the rotation rebounds next year (bolstered by somewhat better organizational pitching depth). If the team really wants to go all in, it could move some of it's better prospects. It's not the most inspiring strategy, but the team would seem to be somewhat hemmed in by its contractual obligations and depleted farm system. There is reason to believe the team will be better next year, but will it be good enough to beat the elite teams in its division?
whiterasta80 - Wednesday, July 31 2013 @ 03:55 PM EDT (#277341) #
There's no source since I threw together a package similar to what the Padres ultimately got (Grandal, Alonso and Volquez).

I was trying to think back to what the equivalent would have been then (vs now) but if you prefer then D'Arnaud, Gose/Marisnick and Alvarez/Drabek should have got it done. Either way it was clear we had the pieces to make a bit and it was a mistake not to go all in.

And that's not even getting into Darvish/Chapman.
John Northey - Wednesday, July 31 2013 @ 03:56 PM EDT (#277342) #
Well, before this season Buehrle was 100+ for ERA+ in every year but one of his 13 (6 straight).  Dickey had 3 straight plus a Cy Young last year. Johnson had 5 straight but is at 69 now (!) with an ERA that is more than 3 times his 2011 ERA. 

Basically, those 3 didn't show as many warning signs as Peavy does.  Peavy in 2 of the 3 years before this one was below 95 for ERA+, jumped to 128 last year and dropped to 100 this.  His HR/9 rate has jumped lately too, from 0.8 in 2011, to 1.1 last year to 1.6 this year - a rate that is much, much too high.  Now, his K/9 and BB/9 figures are nice at 8.6 and 1.9, no question those are very good signs for him.  But that HR rate... put that in Fenway and fears climb, in SkyDome they might be even higher.
greenfrog - Wednesday, July 31 2013 @ 04:14 PM EDT (#277343) #
The thing is, if Peavy doesn't work out, the Red Sox are out Iglesias and a relatively modest amount of cash. The amount of risk involved is low. You can't say the same about Buehrle and Dickey (the acquisition of whom required more hard-won young talent and more cash).

I'm not saying the Miami and Mets trades were a bad idea. I was in favour of the Miami trade and (more cautiously) the Mets trade. And I still like Buerhle and Dickey (although Dickey and the RC now seem to be a poor match - he might be better off on a different team). I'm saying that in all the circumstances (talent relinquished, remaining contractual obligation, present and recent performance, risk/reward), Peavy looks like a good move.
Ryan Day - Wednesday, July 31 2013 @ 04:38 PM EDT (#277345) #
So you've got a team with a $116 million payroll that went 49-57... and you don't do anything at all? The rotation is full of injuries & underachievers, the left fielder has the mobility of Cecil Fielder, the starting catcher has the lowest OBP in baseball and doesn't offer a ton behind the plate...

I'm not suggesting panic moves, but there are so many things wrong with this team and no one seems to be doing much about it.
greenfrog - Wednesday, July 31 2013 @ 04:46 PM EDT (#277346) #
Ryan, I suspect the problem is that the players other teams are interested in are the ones the Jays want/need to hold on to.
mathesond - Wednesday, July 31 2013 @ 04:46 PM EDT (#277347) #
The rotation is full of injuries & underachievers, the left fielder has the mobility of Cecil Fielder, the starting catcher has the lowest OBP in baseball and doesn't offer a ton behind the plate...

When you put it like that, it's surprising other teams weren't beating down the doors trying to collect these assets :)
85bluejay - Wednesday, July 31 2013 @ 04:54 PM EDT (#277348) #
what's wrong with you whiners - how dare you criticize the great AA & best FO in all of sports - when the Jays soar past the Yankees for 4th place in September, you whiners will see the brilliance of AA's strategy  plus not having to pay a top ten pick all that money next year - the fact is that this team is super talented & doesn't need any tinkering - it's just the stupid umpires that are the problem. 
Ryan Day - Wednesday, July 31 2013 @ 05:00 PM EDT (#277349) #
Ha. Yes, that's true. Obviously, there weren't a lot of moves the team could make if it wanted to try to contend again next year. But I suppose the trade deadline is just the tip of the iceberg, and I wouldn't care so much if it looked like the Jays were trying to address their problems in other ways.
  • Maybe JPA doesn't need to be the everyday catcher for the rest of the season. Is Thole good enough to be a backup? is he good enough to be a starter?
  • If Melky is still too gimpy to play the field, put him on the DL and see what Pillar can do for a couple months.
  • Ditto for Adam Lind's back: if the Jays can't find a way to keep him healthy & effective, he has no place on the 2014 team.
  • Is there any point at all to Emilio Bonifacio? I really don't know.
  • How much blame for this disastrous season falls to the coaching staff?
Four Seamer - Wednesday, July 31 2013 @ 05:16 PM EDT (#277350) #
Another defensive clinic being put on by the hometown heroes, by the sounds of it.
BlueJayWay - Wednesday, July 31 2013 @ 06:02 PM EDT (#277351) #
I blame Emilio.  For everything.
Richard S.S. - Wednesday, July 31 2013 @ 06:06 PM EDT (#277352) #
Just a few interesting problems to ponder (baring any trades):
1) Toronto has $112-ish MM in guaranteed signed contracts in 2014. In addition, Rasmus and Bonifacio are Arb-3 ($10 MM - $12 MM), Arencibia, Cecil, Rogers and Lincoln are Arb -1 ($10 MM - $15 MM) and anywhere from 6-10 Pre-Arbs ($2.75 MM - $5.5 MM).
2) Still needed are:
a) Top Quality Starting Pitching,
b) Very good Defensive 2B,
c) Quality D.H. able to play a position in the field,
d) 4th Outfielder, able to play CF as well.
3) Josh Johnson needs to pitch differently than he is. If he's kept, he needs the "Weighted Ball" Program. As should all Starters/Relievers.
John Northey - Wednesday, July 31 2013 @ 06:19 PM EDT (#277353) #
Regardless of the result, it is good to see Dickey do well.  He is here for 2-3 more years (doubt anyone would offer enough to make a trade worthwhile) so a 6 inning 0 ER with 1 BB is a good sign.  More innings would've been nice, but not vital at the moment.

Meanwhile Izturis continues to baffle.  2 errors but 2 hits also.  What do you do with him?  Ideally the Jays find someone to play 2B next year and let Izturis be what he should be, namely a backup for 2B/3B.  Still dream of the Jays going big with Cano.

Others to watch would be Thole - howsabout playing him 2 or 3 games in a row just to see if his timing comes back?  Lawrie - a hit and a walk is always nice. Those three (Izturis, Thole, Lawrie) are key to figure out for 2014 - can you count on any of them and if so in what role.  We know Bautista, Encarnacion, Rasmus, and Reyes and what they can/should do.  It is the rest who matter now. 

So questions for 2013 to answer...
  • Lind - do you use his option for 2014 or cut him loose?
  • Davis - do you resign him? For how much?
  • Izturis - is he just a backup? How much should you count on him? I like him as a backup for Lawrie's injuries but not everyday
  • Lawrie - will he become a star, or a serviceable player at least? At 2B or 3B?
  • Rasmus - do you sign him long term? For how much in years/dollars?
  • LF - who plays it in 2014? Cabrera is a flop, Gose has done poor in AAA as has Sierra. Pillar looks good but is he the real deal? Do you sign another free agent/do a trade/play Davis instead?
  • CA - Thole & JPA, how to job share or do you get another guy to catch?
  • Rotation - ugh. Disaster this year but a cast of thousands of #4/5 guys for 2014, are any #1's? Do you find another one somehow? Who and how? Need to get ML innings for some of the kids if possible.
  • Pen - who to keep, who to trade, etc. Oliver is gone for sure but that still leaves a lot of guys to work though.

My gut? Lind will be kept but should be cut, Davis should/will be resigned, Izturis will be at 2B everyday, Lawrie at 3B, Rasmus...not sure, LF will be Cabrera again (sigh), CA JPA with Thole a rarely used backup or another backup brought in.  Rotation will be pieced together from what is there now as will the pen.  Some guys lost due to the numbers game.  Hopefully I'm wrong.

greenfrog - Wednesday, July 31 2013 @ 06:35 PM EDT (#277355) #
The O's have a nice little ballclub with their July moves. Should be a highly competitive AL East race this year. It's a bit scary how much worse the Jays are than their rivals. Toronto needs more pitching, defence, and offense (from a few positions).
Ryan Day - Wednesday, July 31 2013 @ 06:39 PM EDT (#277356) #
Is there a way to set up the rotation so Dickey never has to pitch in Toronto? It's like the Dome is the Coors Field of knuckleballers.
Richard S.S. - Wednesday, July 31 2013 @ 07:11 PM EDT (#277357) #
Just for practise, compare Home games in April with Dickey's turn in the rotation being kept consistent. You might minimize Dickey's Home starts, but not that much.
Sano - Wednesday, July 31 2013 @ 07:14 PM EDT (#277358) #
I thought all the talk before the season was how amazing Dickey's knuckler would do indoors in the controlled environment? And if that isn't the case, then what do we do with Dickey's consistent success at the Trop? 
scottt - Wednesday, July 31 2013 @ 07:22 PM EDT (#277359) #
Wakefield loved pitching at RC, so I'm not convinced it's a real problem.
China fan - Wednesday, July 31 2013 @ 08:58 PM EDT (#277360) #
"....Either way it was clear we had the pieces to make a bit and it was a mistake not to go all in...."

So, if I understand your analytical method correctly: you see a player traded to another team, and then -- with the benefit of hindsight -- you criticize the Jays for failing to obtained that same player because "we had the pieces." I find this a dubious method. First, you're cherry-picking those pieces selectively, by including players like Snider, Gose and Drabek who obviously look worse in hindsight. What if the Reds had insisted on Sanchez and others? Second, you're assuming that the only factor in a trade is "the pieces." There are many other factors in a trade negotiation, not just the existence of pieces. Thirdly, you're choosing a player (Latos) who looks very good in hindsight and you're assuming that it was completely obvious that he would continue to pitch at the same high level for the two years after the trade. Again, this is cherry-picking. There are many pitchers who decline drastically after playing very well for a couple of years -- some of them are on the Jays payroll today and nobody assumed in 2011 that they would decline so drastically. These things are not as easily predictable as you're implying.
Magpie - Wednesday, July 31 2013 @ 09:19 PM EDT (#277361) #
Wakefield loved pitching at RC

I can't imagine why - he was 6-5, 4.65 at Toronto's Dome. That's a little worse than his career average. He probably liked pitching in Tampa's Dome (10-5, 3.29), but that may have had more to do with the quality of hitters than anything else.
JB21 - Wednesday, July 31 2013 @ 10:21 PM EDT (#277362) #
Santos back, McGowan DL.
whiterasta80 - Wednesday, July 31 2013 @ 10:29 PM EDT (#277363) #

I specifically chose the players I did because at the time I believe they were more highly valued than the ones you would have me choose (i.e. Gose vs. Marisnick). The validity of that argument is a matter of subjectivity. I wasn't cherry picking the players, nor was I cherry picking Latos (Gio Gonzalez would have been an obvious alternative). Look through my post history and you will see me pushing for Latos (and Gio Gonzalez ) at the time and a disappointment when we didn't pony up. I still believe at those were relatively weak packages to acquire young, controllable, #1b/2 starters. I still believe, as I did then, that it was a failure to be pro-active at a time when it was necessitated.
rtcaino - Thursday, August 01 2013 @ 12:42 AM EDT (#277365) #
Davidi says Dustin tweaked his side. Hopefully that means something none arm/shoulder related.
bpoz - Thursday, August 01 2013 @ 10:01 AM EDT (#277373) #
In the Jays 30+ years of existence, who were the good pitchers we traded for.
Due to memory loss, I have a short list.

David Cone. Yes he was good.
Jack Morris. We did not trade for him so he does not count, but we won 2 WS so I mention him. We paid for 3 years and got 1 good year IMO.
Juan Guzman. Yes he was good. But M Sharperson was given up. So it was a minor deal that turned out great.
David Wells in the Roger Clemens deal.

Memory is coming back. Mike Flannagan. IMO he was good before and after the trade.

Duane Ward. Yes he was good. Doyle Alexander was good/reliable. Tom Glavine turned out better but I always favor the hard thrower. So I am not allowed to complain.

So assuming that it is not easy to get good pitchers in a trade then RA Dickey, J Johnson and Mark Buehrle are 3 good pitchers that we got in 1 off season. It would seem that is great but the results did not show up.
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