When Gimenez and Springer return from injury, there will be a roster crunch. Buddy Kennedy will be released but who is the second player? I assume it would be one of Joey Loperfido or Davis Schneider, although neither deserve it. Of course, it will only a matter of a few weeks as they would most likely get recalled when the rosters increase in September.

Ty France is a logical candidate to get cut, but maybe that looks like a jerk move when he's riding a 950 OPS, even if it's a small sample size boosted by Coors.

Cavan Biggio signs on with the Angels after being purged from the Royals 40-man with trade deadline activity.

Genesis Cabrera was outrighted off the Pirates roster, the third MLB club to let him go this year.

I was puzzled but not terribly moved when Atkins non-tendered Cabrera last winter. Considering he was one of the few serviceable arms in 2024 in a trainwreck of a historically-bad pen.

But it seems that Atkins was right in the end on this move as well.

Cabrera had 5 years, 11 days service time coming into 2025. It's mostly a technicality since he's a journeyman type now, but it seems unlikely that he'll have enough time on 26-man rosters this year to qualify for FA if anyone picks him up again.

Meaning a team would likely have the option of tendering him a contract again for a final arb year if they were so inclined if they liked his late season performance.

France is the guy who should get cut. He just isn't good but I think the Jays would probably send someone down who has options until September rosters expand.

The pitching matchups all favor the Dodgers IMO. Hitting will likely favor the Jays. Looking forward to the lineups to see.

pooks137 - you got me thinking about last years nightmare pen. Going by games in relief from most on down...

• Cabrera - released Nov 4, Mets until released May 27, Cubs until June 24, Pirates until Aug 7 (sent to AAA, he can refuse it), next? 72 ERA+ in 28 IP.
• Pop - released Apr 2, Seattle until July 2, Mets until July 10, Cubs now. 28 ERA+ in 6 2/3 IP. Mostly in minors this year.
• Chad Green - released Aug 3 75 ERA+
• Little - got better, 109 ERA+ in '24, 154 in '25 and has appeared in 4 more games this year than last already.
• Trevor Richards - traded last summer, FA, Cubs until May 3, Royals until June 13, Arizona now. 59 ERA+ in 5 2/3 IP this year vs 37 2/3 in AAA (5.97 ERA)
• Erik Swanson - Released June 23, 29 ERA+ in 5 1/3 IP no one else has signed him yet.
• Nate Pearson - Cubs still have him, 37 ERA+ 12 2/3 IP 35 2/3 IP in AAA 2.27 ERA there. Just recalled to majors.
• Tim Mayza - released last summer, with the Pirates now 9 1/3 IP 3 R allowed.
• Ryan Burr - hurt, got into 2 games, hurt again.

That covers everyone with 30+ games in the pen last year. Glad the Jays kept Little but the rest have been pretty much chum so far. Mayza showing hope, Cabrera the only one with 20+ IP outside of Little.

Mayza showing hope

Well, the Pirates are hoping he will make it back to the mound before the year is over. He's been out since April with a lat strain.

Hmm. Jays have 16 guys with 100+ PA so far, Loperfido will reach it as well if he is healthy (still not on IL, at 79 PA), no one else has 35 PA (32 for Jimenez is next) so I doubt anyone else will get to 100. Is that high or low? 16/17 guys with 100+ PA? 16 last year, 10 in '23, 13 in '22, 15 in '21, 10 in '20* 16 in '19, 15 in '18, 14 in '17, 14 in '16, 16 in '15. Seems 14-16 100 PA guys is the normal around here.

FYI: Looking at the 2020 team the WAR leaderboard is buried in hats that aren't Jays - only Vlad, AJ Cole, and Bo are still listed with Jay hats. The rest of the top 12 have other hats (most recent team or team they are most associated with for Ryu). Lots of churn since then.

DOH! Good catch Magpie - forgot to check when Mayza pitched, just assumed he was in the minors and called up recently. Obviously a bad assumption.

"but who is the second player?"

It's either going to be France or Loperfido. Schneider provides something that the team doesn't have off the bench (RHB that can hit LHP) so he's not going anywhere. That leaves France and Loperfido. If my hunch is correct, then Clement is going to be starting at 3B the rest of the way (vs RHP and LHP) even when everyone is healthy, which means an OF of Lukes-Varsho-Barger with Straw as the 4th OF. In that scenario, I could see them preferring to keep France as another RHB and someone who could cover 1B. It sucks, and would be unfair to Joey who did nothing to lose a spot, but that could be how it shakes out.

The alternative is Springer/Gimenez come back, and the Jays decide to start Loperfido in the OF vs RHP with Barger at 3B and Clement on the bench. At that point, France becomes the obvious candidate to drop. Clement-Straw-Schneider off the bench gives them 3 RHB to complement the 5 LHB they'd have in the lineup, and all of those 3 (at least this season) hit LHP a lot better, whereas France is more split neutral.

Ultimately, the logical player to drop in any scenario is France. He hasn't been good in years, and while maybe Popkins can do something with him to improve his performance (or maybe his actual numbers start regressing towards his much better xwOBA eventually), I'm not taking that chance with 2 months left to go in a season where the team could win the division. If he was acquired as cover in case Springer's concussion issues are more serious than expected (sadly something that might be the case) then that's different. If/when Springer returns, then it should be a no brainer on who they let go.

Loperfido still seems the flukiest to me.

And i think they think there might be something easily fixable in France. They probably want to give him a real chance.

Fangraphs Rest of Season wRC+ projections:

1B Guerrero 145
SS Bichette 119
C Alejandro 116
DH Springer 115
LF Lukes 110
RF Santander 110
3B Barger 109
2B Schneider 105
CF Varsho 102

UT France 102
IF Gimenez 96
IF Clement 96
C Heineman 92

UT Kennedy 95
OF Loperfido 94
IF Jimenez 93
C Sanchez 70

OF Clase 80
OF Straw 74


Straw's defense keeps him on the playoffs roster most likely.

The battle for Santander's spot is gonna be between France and Loperfido. It'll be a more interesting battle than most think imo. If Santander ever comes back then both are likely gone.

Playoff roster will be challenging, in a good way. If all are healthy

• Locks: (10) 1B:Vlad, 2B: Gimenez, SS: Bo, 3B: Barger/Clement, CF: Varsho, DH: Springer, 4th OF: Straw, C: Kirk 2nd C: Heineman
• Solid: (3) LF: Loperfido, RF: Lukes, LF/2B: Schneider
• If healthy will be there: LF/RF/DH: Santander
• Backups: 1B/DH: France, OF: Clase, IF: Jimenez/Kennedy/Stefanic

I have trouble seeing how you demote/bench Lukes or Loperfido or Schneider for France (limited to 1B/DH and needs to be run for every chance you get). His best OPS+ ever was a 133 in '20 followed by a 128 and 125 the next 2 years. Lukes is the weakest vs him at 114. I see Straw as a special case (speed/defense despite his 79 OPS+ - both can be very valuable in the playoffs). He is a decent fill in for while Springer is hurt, but once Springer is back I see no reason to keep him on the roster unless it is September and you have the extra slot.

LF Lukes
DH Springer
1B Guerrero Jr.
SS Bichette
RF Barger
CA Kirk
CF Varsho
3B Clement
2B Gimenez

I'm almost certain that's going to be Schneider's go-to lineup against RHP if/when Springer and Gimenez come back (minus Santander). So you can certainly make the case that France makes more sense from a roster standpoint than Loperfido in that scenario, especially since they wouldn't "lose" Loperfido, he'd just be sent down (whereas they would lose France if they dropped him).

If they think France is fixable, and Popkins has been a miracle worker this season so they may not be wrong if that's what they think, then I could see them going that direction. As long as they are ready to cut bait if he continues to look washed, then I guess you could live with that.

Ideally, Santander comes back sometime in September, and the Jays can run out their full lineup all healthy at the same time. Would be nice.

Ali Sanchez claimed by the Red Sox.

If that means Narvaez to the IL, it's not good news for Boston.

August 8 and folks are daydreaming about October.

I would expect a lot of baseball fans to be dreaming about October in early August. Perhaps not White Sox or Pirates fans, but still...

It would be nice to see the Red Sox cool off again so that every night for the Jays isn't "must win"/scoreboard watching.

The Yankees collapse has been glorious & couldn't have been scripted better. Same with Tampa's similar collapse, as they were neck & neck with Toronto when New York first came to town for the historic 4-game sweep. But Boston getting red hot right as the Jays ran out of gas in Baltimore & KC wasn't expected.

The Jays are a fun-but-flawed team. Also one that seems difficult to improve internally. Springer's return is desperately needed to lengthen the lineup. They also have a quandary that their rotation is mediocre but they also somehow don't have an opening to slot in prized pickup Shane Bieber.

The pen is suddenly deep but still not lockdown or scary.

Gimenez is close to returning. But besides elite defense at 2B (and some actual base stealing ability if the quad & ankle are 100%), has been an awkward fit on this roster from Day 1.

There's not much left in terms of reinforcements on the 40-man at AAA (except a forgotten Jonatan Clase & a newly injured Leo Jimenez).

This team is going to have to keep winning while filling out the bottom half of the lineup regularly with fringe starters like Lukes, Loperfido, Heineman, Straw, France, etc.

Connor Wong still has a milb option and hasn't hit well. They could send him down unless Narvaez's knee is a major concern. I still think the Jays should sign Austin Barnes and stash him at AAA.

Is Lukes fringe or a decent regular this year? He has a 117 wRC+ despite a low BABIP (.267). 1.5 fWAR / 1.6 bWAR in 296 PA. He has hit lefties well in his occasional PA against them.

He’s not Steven Kwan, but neither is he Raimel Tapia. He’s been solid for the Blue Jays in 2025.

I agree, greenfrog. If you compare Luke's numbers and Kirk's, they're almost identical across the board, except Kirk has 60 more PA.

Is Lukes fringe or a decent regular this year?

He's fringe in the fact that he's a 31 y/o tweener corner outfielder with 122 career MLB PAs coming into 2025.

His 2025 performance has been awesome and he should be starting vs. RHP until proven otherwise.

But he has no proven track record & no guarantee of ongoing success even as an average MLB corner OF.

He also has no standout skills beyond seemingly elite BB/K contact & zone control.

It's currently a nice package, but his margin for error is also very thin. He's hit for power recently, but isn't known fot it. His defense isn't good enough to consistently play CF. He also doesn't have enough speed to steal bases or be a pinchrunner.

I agree with that. That is why I was hoping for Kwan to be acquired at the trade deadline. When the World Series is on the line this year and the lineup turns over, I would have preferred to see Kwan coming up ahead of Springer, Vlad, Bo. But you can’t have everything and Lukes has had some big PA this year in any event.

Schneider gave an injury update on Sportsnet about Springer, Gimenez, Santander, Bieber. Sounds like continued incremental gains / cautious optimism for the first three, and general optimism about Bieber’s progress.

Gimenez playing with Buffalo again, no Springer.

Imo Lukes' lack of mlb opportunity came down mostly to bad covid timing and some bad injury timing.

His numbers have consistently called for more mlb opportunity and his success shouldn't be a big surprise. His milb performance wasn't only good, but rock solid - no real weaknesses or worry spots to scare you off.

What's been a nice surprise from watching him everyday, tho, has been his scrappiness - he's a battler for sure.

Lukes is sort of in the same position Ernie Clement was a year ago.

He's a de facto regular due to performance & lack of better options.

But he doesn't have the service time to be declared a MLB regular yet because he's only been doing it competently for 4-5 months since finally being given the opportunity.

There's more talks about how aggressively Boston has been stealing signs.

Othani has 39 bombs, but nobody else has reached 20 yet. Their 7th hitter Conforto is hitting .191. Betts and Edman have 88 OPS+.

The Dodgers seem to have the edge in starters, but it might just look this way because of where they play.

Say, I was thinking... (scary I know) what is the median for each position in wRC+ vs the Jays likely options? For median I take the 15/16th teams wRC+ and go for the middle of them.

• C: 93 vs Kirk 117 & Heineman 155
• 1B: 105 vs Vlad 146
• 2B: 89 vs Gimenez 78 & Clement 101
• 3B: 88 vs Clement 101 & Barger 124
• SS: 101 vs Bo 126
• LF: 105 vs Loperfido 177 & Schneider 136
• CF: 96 vs Varsho 124
• RF: 109 vs Lukes 117
• DH: 109 vs Springer 148
• Also: France 169 (95 overall), Straw 81, all others who are still in the system are sub 70.

So above average wRC+ at all positions outside of Gimenez at 2B and for backups France & Straw. Can't complain until Santander returns (63 wRC+ over 209 PA - ugh).

Active Roster Team Bullpen Jays MLB Ranks

72 ERA- (T-#4)
75 FIP- (#3)
82 xFIP- (T-#2)

Active Roster SP Ranks

99era- (T-#17)
97fip- (T-#13)
96xfip- (#12)

Yanks turn to Williams again in extras....


...didn't turn out well.

What a catch by Schneider. Now close out the inning, Max.

That's a fun 1st inning.

Max is amped.

Barger with the clutch hit against a tough lefty. Love it.

A bunch of lucky dinks go for hits, and then a screamer into a DP. baseball.

If the postseason rotation had to be set right now, what would it look like? Could the manager even do this without offending anyone?

Bieber
Gausman
Scherzer
Lauer

Kershaw throwing 88s now in the 3rd. We should punish him.

Scherzer is rolling. I’m sure he wants to give the Blue Jays at least 6 innings. Let’s see if he can get that far.

Always the one inning with the big homer for Scherzer.

Not punishing Kershaw, who looks like a shell of his former self is super annoying.

This is not a game they should be losing

Bring on the Robo-umps! Varland should’ve had a strike out there. Not saying it’s the difference in the game, but these fringe pitches are such big calls during at bats, and too often they just get missed.

Ump added some salt to our wounds there.

Walking the number 9 hitter on four pitches is taking the razor to your own throat.

The thing about Little is that he throws so few pitches in the zone. At some point major league hitters are going to stop swinging.

Kershaw throwing 88s now in the 3rd. We should punish him.

Good luck with that.

It doesn't matter. And he still throws harder than Mark Buehrle ever threw in his life.

Pretty unlucky loss in a lot of ways but failing to capitalize on a ton of early chances seems to always come back to bite you.

Love that quote, thanks.

Now let’s get Springer, Gimenez, Bieber, Santander et al. on the field.

Guardians only a half game back of the Yankees for the final WC spot.

If Cleveland passes the Yankees today I can only imagine how nuts their fanbase will go. They were already sounding pretty rabid - demanding everyone pretty much be fired who can be - but if they fall out of a playoff slot entirely ... oh boy.

It sucks to have a baserunner doubled out on a caught ball. But at least our double play was a misread on a line drive from a guy wanting to score from second on a hit to outfield. Getting thrown out on a high pop up in foul territory seems much, much worse.

Mentioned a short time ago Ernie Clement is having a better season than Mookie Betts. Still is by both WAR's.

Also mentioned here a short time ago ( and at least a few dozen times before that) how poorly Ernie hits RH pitching. Of the 173 qualified this year, his 75 wRC+ ranks 165th. But not far ahead in 154th place with an 84 wRC+, after singling and homering off Max last night, is Mookie.

Career vs. RHP:

Betts .289/.365/.509
Clement .259/.294/.355
Clemente .307.346/.455

Shows how far Betts has fallen this year. His .243 BABIP says this year may just be an anomaly, but he turns 33 in a couple of months. Still has 7 years and about $230 left on his contract.

$230 million

Betts had some illness where he lost tons of weight (went from 175 pounds to 150) and got really weak this offseason so I expect that this is still affecting his performance.

Bill Shaikin was on 590 yesterday and said that Betts has said he hasn't been right since breaking his hand last year. He hit .263/.314/.497 over the final two months of 2024, though.

I'm more watching to see how Betts bounces back next year after the illness he suffered at the start of the season that sapped ~20lbs of muscle. I could easily see something like that leading to a lost year. I'd feel a bit better if there had been a definitive diagnosis, though. The theory I've seen is that it was a norovirus.

And the Yankees amazing bullpen blows another game. This is so fun to watch.

The worse thing the Dodgers medical staff did was approve him to fly to Japan at the start of the season when he was still tossing his cookies every 10 mins... I even posted at the time that he was potentially dooming his season.

The Yankees are winning 5-4 heading into the ninth inning, thanks to a Grisham solo home run B8.

Three up and three down for Bednar T9, Yankees win.

Anyone watching Bieber in the Bisons game?

Not watching, but Bieber’s final pitching line against a good AAA team was solid:

78 pitches, 5.2 IP, 4 H, 2 R, 2 ER, 1 BB, 6 K, 1 HR allowed

A lot of people have written off Jimenez as a prospect. He had mono at the beginning of the year. As someone who had a bad case of mono in my twenties, I said at the time that that might easily make this season a write off. I’d wait till next year before drawing any conclusions on Jimenez.

Gimenez 4 for 5 and played all 9 innings at 2nd. Should be back Tuesday in Toronto.

I’d wait till next year before drawing any conclusions on Jimenez.

The problem being there's a very good chance there is no next year. He's already on his bonus 4th option year in 2025. No guarantee he survives 40-man crunches for the rest of the season & the winter. Also hard to imagine he makes the Opening Day 26-man roster unless many things happen/go wrong.

I'll beat my drum again that guys like Jimenez are victims of early Rule 5 protection cautiousness who start burning options long before they are major league ready. They end up as waiver fodder journeyman once they run out of options like we saw with Ali Sanchez earlier in the week. Out of options players are really hard to keep on the 26-man without being clear MLB regulars.

Many more fringe prospects are lost to 40-man roster machinations & running out of options than actually lost permanently to the Rule 5 draft. The Jays should only protect Top 100 type prospects, not potential relievers & league average infielders.

I see Jimenez fighting for the backup IF role in 2025. If one is available. If they resign Bo it is possible there is no slot open for him (Vlad-Gimenez-Barger-Bo-Clement) The OF will be packed to overflow unless someone is dealt (Springer-Santander-Varsho plus Loperfido-Straw-Lukes-Schneider-Clase (out of options)-etc.)

Yankee pitchers must've been scared - Stanton was in RF for most of the game.

Didnt think we'd be going into battle with all of clement france kennedy straw in the lineup tbh.

Clement has a 62 wRC+ against LHP in the last (nearly) 2 months. Batting him 2nd when they have zero intention of ever pinch hitting for him defies logic. At this point just bat Kirk 2nd and get the better hitter more PA's.

I miss Coors Field.

Had to turn it off - just too ugly. Hopefully they make me regret it.

These games are revealing how much the Blue Jays have depended on a healthy and productive Springer this year (148 wRC+ — better than Vladdy and Freeman, to take two examples of middle-of-the-order bats playing in this series).

I hate being humbled.

Let’s hope SD holds on to beat Boston (it’s 4-3 SD after Mason Miller’s 1.1 shutdown innings in the 7th and 8th).

The Rockies series was a nice short term escape from reality but the Jays really miss Springer who has been a legitimately great offensive player this season. Impossible to replace and makes the lineup significantly weaker, especially against LHP. Hopefully he’s not only back soon but also showing no long term effects.

For me this is just the manager getting cocky and high on his own manouevring.

Both Lukes and Barger should have been in the lineup against the dodgers. This not a game for Kennedy and Straw.

Boston is trying to rally. Leadoff infield single for Rafaela followed by a SB. Wong K. Now back to the top of the order (Anthony, Bregman, Duran).

Now 4-4. Gaahh. Boston is playing well.

Red sox lose

Red Sox lose finally, so that's cool.

Qualcomp is a thing. The Dodgers still have the best roster money can buy.

All complaints here about the hitters, and the ones we complained about are the only ones who did anything. Meanwhile we give up 9 runs. I hope Schneider is rethinking his leverage.

2nd meltdown for Yariel in the past 3 games, 2nd in a row for Seranthony. Meanwhile Fisher since the calendar to June: 27 G, 24.2 IP, 16 H, 4 R, 0 HR, 7 BB, 31 K, 2 HBP, 1.46 ERA, 1.57 FIP.

Roman ties it for the Sox in the 9th, Ramon wins it for the Padres in the 10th.

Fisher’s usage, or lack thereof. is genuinely odd. Schneider is bound and determined that his two new toys will get the leverage situations but it’s not clear that they should.

Down by 3 in the sixth is actually medium leverage if not low.

The desire to use your best relievers is more aspirational of a comeback than statistically based.

Neither Nigel or I said Yariel came into to a high leverage situation.

What I believe we are both implying is Fisher, who has arguably been as good as any reliever for over 2 months coming into a 9 runs down situation, which is about low a leverage as you can get, makes little sense.

The only way it does to me is if he's letting the 2 know he's given them chances and Fisher is the one succeeding, which is why he's going to take over their higher leverage situations going forward. At least I hope so.

Fisher’s usage, or lack thereof. is genuinely odd. Schneider is bound and determined that his two new toys will get the leverage situations but it’s not clear that they should.

Well, you're speaking for another user hypobole. Their comment above may not specifically be complaining about Schneider choosing Rodriguez & Dominguez in higher leverage spots than Fisther, but it sure is cryptic.

The Jays pen is still suboptimally constructed even after the trade deadline in that there is no longman, Little is the only lefty and while there's a lot of different looks, there's a lot of 1-inning RHP middle reliever/setup types.

Shulman was already worrying out loud that the Jays don't really have a multi-inning guy in the 6th before the game got really out of hand. Nance is in theory that guy, but he's mostly been used like the others as a seldomly-used low leverage RHP 1-inning guy, maxing out so far this season at 5 outs & 25 pitches.

Fisher hadn't pitched since Wed. He did get two very low leverage appearances in Colorado somewhat suboptimally. But then again, beyond Nance, there isn't really that many guys for garbage time (and Rodriguez seemed to be unavailable for whatever reason for a full week).

I do find all the complaining & second-guessing of minutiae over bullpen decisions tiring. Especially when none of it matters when you are getting your heads beat in by the Royals, Orioles & now Dodgers from awful SP, bullpen meltdowns & an offense that disappeared outside of Coors.

Fisher likely needed work. Or maybe Schneider just wanted someone to stop the bleeding who could finally make the humiliation stop.

I assumed Nigel was speaking of Varland, not Yariel. as the other new toy.
Fluharty is a lefty, so there are 2 in the pen.
I rarely complain about bullpen usage or lineups. The seeming lack of trust in Fisher I find odd, which is why I posted his numbers. 

I wasn’t criticizing any particular bullpen decision. I was simply noting that the usage of Fisher over the past couple of months has been odd and inconsistent with other players with similar numbers and performance. Like every manager, Schneider has horses for courses. I don’t see what Schneider does with Fisher. I also am less impressed with sheer velocity in relievers than some.

Perhaps these first two games have shown why the biased US media has the Jays and their run differential behind other teams with worse records in their power rankings. Scrap out a win today to avoid a full-on embarrassment.

The Cubs at the Dome will be another great test.

The Jays must not be in Colorado anymore! I've read that Boston has one of the easier schedules while the Jays have one of the toughest schedules of remaining games so it's going be a challenge to hold off the Red Sox for the division.

If the Jays make the playoffs, that starting rotation doesn't inspire confidence of a long playoff run.

I think Gausman-Scherzer at the top of a playoffs rotation could still be intimidating. Both seem to be rounding into form.

The other three shouldn't be liabilities at least.

It would be perfect if Bieber could find his way back near his old level. That would give us a 3rd guy with ace history.

Based on merit, Lauer would be your game 1 starter:). Rodriguez has been the team’s best RH reliever this year, if he’s gone sideways (as appears to be the case over his last few outings) that would be a big problem.

Gausman 6.2ip/gm, 63era-, 79fip-, 96xfip-, 5.4war/32
Lauer 5.6ip/gm, 70era-, 66fip-, 89xfip-, 5.4war/32
Scherzer 5.5ip/gm, 101era-, 99fip-, 98xfip-, 2.4war/32
Berrios 5.2ip/gm, 118era-, 112fip-, 105xfip-, 0.4war/32
Bassitt 5.0ip/gm, 138era-, 141fip-, 103xfip-, -1.0war/33


Berrios and Bassitt have really hit the skids.

But Gausman has rounded into form nicely and looks like a top of the rotation guy again.

Lauer just keeps on keeping on.

These 8 starts for Scherzer are all his starts since coming back - mediocre numbers overall, but he's started to look a bit more like himself the last few outings.

Yariel's lack of control (not even command) has looked like a huge problem lately.

With the day off tomorrow and Hoffman needing work, I expect another quick pull of the SP. Varland, Little, and Fluharty should pitch as well. Just give us 5, Lauer.

I am giving Schneider more rope because he did a pretty good job in July managing the team overall after some very bad managing imho in the first 2.5 months.

We shall see how "real," Lauer is today against the Dodgers. If he can spin a WS it will get my attention otherwise it's Bieber and Gausman at the top for me then Scherzer then a steep drop to Lauer/Berrios/Bassitt.

There's speculation that Berrios is nursing an injury. I wonder if he doesn't want to lose his iron man level of consistency.

I had forgotten about Fluharty being the 2nd lefty in the pen. I was thinking of Bruihl going down after being awful & no rental relief LHP being acquired.

Not sure if Fluharty is completely back into Schneider's circle of trust. At least Mason isn't the first reliever warming in the pen anymore regardless of inning or context like he was before his pre-demotion implosion.

RH RP

Fisher: 36gms, 1.0ip/gm, 56era-, 49fip-, 73xfip-, 1.8war/65
Varland: 55gms, 1.0ip/gm, 50era-, 69fip-, 74xfip-, 1.5war/65
Rodriguez: 48gms, 1.2ip/gm, 77era-, 99fip-, 104xfip-, 0.8war/65
Dominguez: 48gms, 1.0ip/gm, 98era-, 85fip-, 90xfip-, 0.2war/65
Garcia: 22gms, 1.0ip/gm, 96era-, 91fip-, 91xfip-, 0.3war/65
Hoffman: 49gms, 1.0ip/gm, 113era-, 94fip-, 66xfip-, 0.1war/65

Especially with 1 or 2 of Bassit/Berrios/Bieber and maybe Yesavage in the mix I don't think Yariel is our best RH RP, or even all that close really.

Yariel was the team's best RH RP for a very long stretch (around 3 months), which is presumably what was meant. Fisher's stats may have been slightly better, but he wasn't pitching in as high leverage spots as Rodriguez was for most of it.

I’m not prepared to concede that LAD is better than the Blue Jays, based on a small sample size of two games in Dodgers Stadium. Especially when the Blue Jays are currently without their best hitter in 2025 (Springer).

Also, game 1 of the series could easily have had a different outcome, for example if Straw’s scorched liner with the bases loaded and one out hadn’t been caught by a Dodgers fielder. That was luck, not skill, on Kershaw’s part.

"I’m not prepared to concede"

I am completely ready to concede that LA is the better team. This team is juggernaut. I mean I won't say you can't beat them -- but if you do -- damn! pat yourself on the back.

Dodgers are best team in baseball. No shame in not being as good as they are. I hate all these double plays.

I think the Dodgers have the best roster in baseball by a pretty wide margin. They’ve had 157 pitchers injured at any one time and, when I’ve watched them, they’ve been pretty lethargic and not really maxed out on effort and they are still a stones throw from the best record in baseball.

I guess it's a minority I'm a part of. LAD not better team necessarily for me.

Ty chases Tyler.

The Vladdy-Addy show!

That was a pleasant surprise. Back to back jacks.

This reminds me of the bad Jays pen implosions

I’m not sure there’s anything I hate more as a fan then watching a pitcher walk home a run.

"Ernie Clement on the first pitch he sees puts the Blue Jays back on top!!!"

Then Clement proving whats different about these Jays

Clement has a 62 wRC+ against LHP in the last (nearly) 2 months"

As we could all have predicted by now from similar comments in the past, Clement proceeds to hit a go-ahead home run off an extremely tough LHP to start the 9th inning.

This is some awful managing. 32 pitches and your closer can't locate the zone since he came in... why force him to self correct when it's a harder path???

Ibdont thinl Hoffman should have had this long a leash. Not a good outing

And apparrntly Fluharty got Ump'd out of a K of Ohtani.

Fluharty for closer!

Very questionable bullpen usage there but didn't matter in the end. 1/3 in LA is absolutely fine.

That was easy. Had ‘em all the way!

What a HUGE comeback win. Insane performance from Fluharty.

Thanks for the two free outs Mr. Roberts.

That's an ugly, gritty win... It's quite a rarity for a team to give up 13 free passes and still win. Great way to end a rough weekend...

“I am completely ready to concede that LA is the better team”

Toronto now has a better W-L record than LAD, even with Springer and Santander injured. And they have a 4-game lead again in the AL East.

Yeah, but the Jays just swept the Rockies. How often do the Dodgers get to beat up on Colorado?

That was certainly a big win. 13 walks and 10 hits (or 9 hits and a should have been error on Clement) and only 4 runs allowed losing to 4 walks and 9 hits from the Jays producing 5 runs.

It did seem like the umpire was inconsistent (both for and against the jays with both balls as strikes and strikes as balls) but that still was way too many balls thrown. 200 pitches from the Jays, only 113 strikes, 56.5% strikes not usually successful. In contrast Dodgers had just 137 pitches thrown, with 90 strikes, for 65.7% strikes.

The Fluharty/Ohtani PA was one of the highlights of the season for me. Tremendous pitching by Mason in about as high pressure a situation as you’ll see. He actually might have struck Ohtani out twice in the same PA, given the questionable call by the third base ump on Ohtani’s apparent swing early in the PA.

And then Mason stayed composed and got Betts to ground out in the critical PA that followed.

Fabulous job by Fluharty, and you can make a good argument he should have been used to pitch the entire ninth inning.

mathesond - I assume that was a joke about Colorado - Dodgers are 6-0 vs them with 7 more games to go between them. Sigh, must be nice having an easy target in your division.

All hail Mason Fluharty! Survived John Schneider at his worst, who brings in Rodriguez (why?), his iffiest reliever just now, who still can’t find the plate. They get three (!) gutsy homers in the 8th and 9th. Then Hoffman can’t find the plate, but he’s left in anyway, in that familiarly Schneiderian way -- long enough to load the bases and to walk five batters in total. But good ol’ Ernie rescues them in the last reel. Whoof!

Really big win and gained a game on the Red Sox and Yankees, too. Fluharty was great and Hoffman was terrible.

Schneider seems a master of stealing momentum from a pitcher. Rodriguez was shaky to start the 8th but had just recorded an important second out, but Schneider elects to bring in Hoffman who hadn't pitched in 7 days, and who then proceeds to walk two, including the tying run. Then in the ninth, he continues to leave Hoffman in when he's clearly struggling to find the plate.

Very questionable bullpen usage there but didn't matter in the end.

Well, all bullpen usage is questionable. But when you use seven different guys and they allow one run over six innings against the best offense in the major leagues, I'd be taking a victory lap. And pulling your million dollar closer for a rookie with a 5.23 ERA (never mind that the bases were loaded and Shohei Ohtani was at the plate) requires a little gumption.

Yeah a big pet peeve is when the manager bungles a lead in a momentum building game. Schneider seems to make his major blunders for opportune times where the team really needs a win, i. e. Avoiding a sweep.

Magpie,

I guess you're pretending the stat line for Hoffman doesn't exist?

0.2 IP 23 balls (33 total pitches), BS, 5 BB !!

Sure I can just say "hey Jeff Hoffman got the W and gave up no earned runs..."

Did I say Hoffman was good?

I'm actually somewhat in awe of John Schneider's bullpen management, because I don't trust a single one of the eight guys down there. Not one of them. I suspect there's a trick being done with mirrors.

Baseball can be a tough game, apparently even in retirement. Mariano Rivera played in the Yankees Old-Timers Game the other day and tore his Achilles. Maybe he’ll opt for pickleball next time.

No you didn't say he was good but you used the stat line of the other pitchers in the game justify why a victory lap was in order in response to criticism of the manager's horrendous use of his gassed/rusty closer.

My surprise/concern level at Hoffman's usage today (keeping in mind what transpired in the eighth inning):

Schneider goes to Hoffman to start the ninth: 8/10

Schneider sticks with Hoffman after he walked the first batter in the ninth: 8.5/10

Schneider sticks with Hoffman after he walked the first two batters in the ninth: 9/10

Fortunately it all worked out in the end.

Anyway, the bullpen usage is what we live with under Schneider. The much more concerning issue right now is Springer and when (if) he's going to return this season.

I heard multiple blog hosts say that Santander is done and one of them (Blair) said that he (Santander) has a rotator cuff issue.

I saw this posted elsewhere.... "Jeff Hoffman is the first pitcher since at least 1901 to surrender at least 5+ walks in less than an inning of work and get credited with a win"

The Blue Jays can have a successful postseason without Santander (they've been great without him this season). I don't think the same can be said about Springer.

Davidi quoted Schneider the other day saying there was a rotator cuff issue with Santander.

The bullpen really is not much better now that it was before the deadline other than Varland.

I'm not sure LA is the better team on the field but they have a hell of a lot better advanced scouting. They had the Jays players down pat. The Jays have had brutal advanced scouting for a few years now although it's been better this year... but nowhere close to the Dodgers.

I think the biggest blunder, by far, was having Hoffman sit around for a week without pitching. But as bad as he was - it's still six innings with just one run allowed from the bullpen against the best offense in the game. Six shutout innings would have been better, I agree.

I don't think it's a managerial blunder when he brings in a relief pitcher who gives up a run, which is possibly an old-fashioned way of thinking. I simply don't trust anyone in this bullpen. Certainly not the rookies, who have like 40 innings in the majors. Obviously not the 34 year old journeyman. Too soon to trust the two new guys. I think Little is a con artist, and the hitters will figure it out any day now. Hoffman is usually unhittable, but he blows up real good. I was beginning to get there with Yariel, so he's spent the last few days reminding me that sometimes home plate seems to be in a different area code than the one he's in. Schneider - who has no choice in the matter - manages as if he trusts them all. Which completely mystifies me, and requires far steadier nerves than I have.

I mean come on! He actually got some crucial high leverage work from the corpse of Chad Green against the Yankees. The man's a miracle worker!

Record vs current playoff teams/left to play

Blue Jays 28-23 / 15
Red Sox 21-25 / 16
Yankees 22-27 / 16
Tigers 17-20 / 12
Astros 25-15 / 15
Mariners 21-22 / 15

A Jays/Astros ALCS could be very exciting and heart attack inducing. A Jays/Tigers one would be a throwback to the old days of the 80's when they were fighting it out for the AL East. Yanks/Red Sox/Mariners - meh - each would have their own storyline but I'd rather the excitement of Tigers or Astros vs Jays.

Man that's a huge win.

Fluharty is a rookie baby but imo he's been mostly good.

"Yariel was the team's best RH RP for a very long stretch (around 3 months), which is presumably what was meant. Fisher's stats may have been slightly better, but he wasn't pitching in as high leverage spots as Rodriguez was for most of it.2 "

Meh. He hasn't been actuakly a high lev guy just a med lev guy.

And i can say the exact same thing: "Yariel's stats might be slightly better but he wasn't used in hear as high lev slots as Hoffman".

"The bullpen really is not much better now that it was before the deadline other than Varland."

Come on marc, i dunno what 'other than varland' is supposed to mean but Varland and Dominguez over Green/Estrada/Bruihl is a massive upgrade and bigger than the one you've been crediting to the yankees deadline bullpen upgrade.

"I simply don't trust anyone in this bullpen"

I don't trust relievers at all. Devin Williams probably best reliever in baseball over last five years. 5.73 ERA this season. Bednar sucked last year, was so bad got demoted this year. Now one of the best relievers again. It's just a very unpredictable position. Would be nice to have one guy having a great year who also had one last year to at least give the impression of stability. I will also easily take this "don't trust anyone" way ages of last year's "I actively know everyone is terrible". I mean, people were upset at losing Genesis Cabrera. That's how bad it got.

Of course you shouldn’t trust the vast vast majority of relievers. A bunch of them aren’t very good and the sample sizes are too small. Even good relievers with an ERA of say 3 are giving up a run (on average) one every three appearances (assuming typical one inning usage).

I think Schneider has generally been pretty good this year with the pen but that’s because he’s got a much better pen to work with:). Good relievers make managers look smart and vice versa. My only complaint with Schneider’s bullpen usage through the years is that he’s slow to alter leverage roles even though the stats and eye test are telling him too. His rationale is probably that the players like that stability of roles. And, of course, his reluctance to use Fisher in leverage situations is bordering on bizarre:)

I don't trust relievers at all.

I trusted Tom Henke.

Henke and.... (thinks... thinks...)

I trusted Ward for about five years which is like 15 years in non-reliever. Think about all the relieves the Jays have ever had and it's like 2 that have ever been trustworthy for more than 2/3 years.

Dominguez has been terrible, so "other than Varland" seems pretty reasonable. His first 3 appearances were good though.

Clement has a 91wrc+ vRHP since May 1, and a 92wrc+ as a jay. The Jays have a pretty good idea of what he is vRHP.

So if you're wondering why he plays against RHP it's because there's still good value in an elite glove when he's less than 10% below league average offensively.

"Come on marc, i dunno what 'other than varland' is supposed to mean but Varland and Dominguez over Green/Estrada/Bruihl is a massive upgrade and bigger than the one you've been crediting to the yankees deadline bullpen upgrade."

+1

What's next, "Jays are basically the same offense now as before the trade deadline other than Springer being injured."

So how are the Jay relievers doing for saves-holds-blown then? By order of most opportunities

• Hoffman: 26-0-5
• Little: 0-22-2
• Rodriguez: 2-13-1
• Garcia: 3-6-4
• Sandlin: 1-5-3
• Green: 1-7-0 (shocked me)
• Fisher: 0-5-1
• Fluharty: 1-5-1
• Bruihl: 0-3-0
• Varland: 0-1-1
• Domínguez: 0-2-0
• Nance: 0-2-0
• Estrada: 0-0-1

Overall: 34-71-19. For comparison to past division wins: 2015: 34-62-22 (fewer holds, more blown), 1993: 50-47-19 (Ward closing), 1992: 49-97-10 (Henke/Ward), 1991: 60-43-19 (same), 1989: 38-85-24 (same but early Ward), 1985: 47-44-23 (Caudill-Henke). So outside of 1992 this relief core has been very similar to past division winning Jay teams in saves-hold-blown. I doubt we'll ever see a pen like that insane 1992 pen (Henke-Ward-David Wells-Timlin-Eichhorn as the core). It had 2 'WOW' closers, a 250 win guy, and 2 19 WAR middle men. A future Cy winner in Pat Hentgen also had 2 save opportunities. Just nuts. I remember fans getting annoyed with Henke that year at times and wanting Ward to take over closing duties (same in '91).

Reliever performance over a small sample is pointless unless the pitcher doesn't look right (stuff-wise, command, velocity, etc). The Jays pen is definitely better now than it was before the deadline. Whether the relievers actually perform, or are put in the right situations, is a different story, but I don't think I'd read much into 3 innings for Dominguez. He is what he is (some of which is frustrating) and over a bigger sample that will end up showing itself.

Why Fisher hasn't been used in more high leverage is a more baffling scenario. Maybe it's a case of Schneider showing more deference to relievers with more service time, track record, and/or tenure on the roster. It certainly hasn't been a performance issue.

Shutdowns/Meltdowns

Hoffman: 22-9
Little: 18-9
Rodriguez: 22-2
Garcia: 8-3
Sandlin: 7-5
Green: 9-4
Fisher: 8-5
Fluharty: 7-6
Bruihl: 1-2
Varland: 1-1
Domínguez: 3-1
Nance: 2-0
Estrada: 1-1

Wow, Yariel has been even better than I thought.

With the impending addition of Bieber, I found this from ESPN interesting:"The Dodgers have essentially used a six-man rotation all season, with pitchers making just seven starts on four days of rest. Yamamoto hasn't started on four days of rest all season.

I'm confused, is reliever performance over SSS meaningless, or should we be baffled that Fisher - he of 36 MLB innings of experience - isn't trusted more? I can kind of understand why it might take time to trust a rookie that prior to this season couldn't find the strikezone with help of GPS.

Rodriquez and Fisher have been their two best and most consistent RH relievers for most of the year. Now, neither Rodriquez nor Dominguez look good by the eye test right now - whether that matters at all is open to debate.

Right on Hodgie.

Fisher

APR: n/a
MAY: 0.63 avg lvg (#11 RP), 0era-, 12fip-, 30xfip-
JUN: 0.59 avg lvg (#7 RP), 0era-, 20fip-, 62xfip-
JUL: 2.02 avg lvg (#1 RP), 99era-, 76fip-, 139xfip-
AUG: 0.15 avg lvg (#7 RP), 0era-, 0fip-, 19xfip-


Fisher had earned his way into high lev usage by July. His stats took a hit for it but not terrible stuff either.

This month he hasn't been used in high lev at all but that's a small sample still and that's after bringing in two RH RP they figured on being high lev guys. We'll see if they continue to get preference over him going forward.

Yesavage to AAA. He might really pitch in majors this year.

Mathematically impossible for the Yankees to be in first place on August 16th.

Marc Hulet - Saturday, August 02 2025 @ 09:27 AM EDT (#465232) #
I assure you the Yankees' reliever implosion was an anomaly (quick trip to new team, first game jitters and all that) and they will settle in with no further issues. They'll be fine and in first place within two weeks.

Well that authoritative comment back fired, which is fine because these common "closed-case" comments always do.

Yesterday on the radio show they played John Schneider's interview post game and he became quite cagey when asked if Yesavage will pitch in relief this year.

I think Yesavage depends mostly on who is here/healthy come October. If you assume we're seeing a 6 man rotation shortly (10 days) then we have a 7 man pen - Hoffman-Dominguez-Varland-Fisher-Little-Rodriguez-Fluharty-Nance are the current crew, options available for Varland-Fisher-Little-Fluharty with Garcia-Sandlin on the IL (Sandlin has options). That is 10 relievers for 7 or 8 slots (1 extra come September 1st). Who do you cut? Fluharty & Nance seem to be on the edge the most, despite Nance having a 1.74 FIP/2.64 xFIP/0.77 ERA and Fluharty having that WOW game last night (4.14 FIP/4.08 xFIP/5.15 ERA but 3.30 xERA). Yesavage might be a great addition to the pen for 1-4 innings here and there, but how do you mix in a kid with 0 ML innings?

Yesavage is an option if he continues to dominate in the minors. But I'd hesitate to use him when so many decent options are here already unless he really looks 'WOW' or we see a few injuries (always possible, even probable with relievers). His innings are 44-76-93 1/3-80 2/3 in college/minors (ages 18-19-20-21) so based on the old 'add 30 max a year' rule he has 43 left on him before maxing out in 2025. That could work out. We'll see I guess.

I trusted Ward for about five years which is like 15 years in non-reliever.

Gosh, no! Ward spent three years making me nervous every time. Then came one year of Winning my Trust, and finally two fairly pleasant low-stress (championship!) years.

6 man rotation and a shorthanded bullpen seems counterproductive to me.

"The Jays have had brutal advanced scouting for a few years now although it's been better this year... but nowhere close to the Dodgers."

While everyone else is ribbing you over the bullpen stuff, Marc, I'm wondering whether you think the improvement in advanced scouting is because the information has improved, or the communication has improved? On the hitting coach side, it seems the information that is getting to hitters is something they can focus on or look for, vs things that would seem to leave them in-between like they were caught between two choices. I wonder if that's actually the case first of all, and if that may also explain the advanced scouting improvements.

While everyone else is ribbing you over the bullpen stuff, Marc, I'm wondering whether you think the improvement in advanced scouting is because the information has improved, or the communication has improved?

I’ll go with option C, the improvement is that Marc has arbitrarily decided it’s improved. Dude makes many extremely self-assured statements but rarely any hint of a reason as to why he’s so confident.

"Dude makes many extremely self-assured statements but rarely any hint of a reason as to why he’s so confident."

I disagree. Marc often provides details in his statements.

When it comes to advance scout and the like I'd look at Kevin Kiermaier. After he went to the Dodgers he came back here for a coaching position (part time) and raved about how amazing the Dodgers pre-game stuff was. I suspect that had a LOT to do with things. When a guy who was respected leaves and comes back saying that "this team is doing xyz different and it is great" people tend to listen. For details read this article and it shows how he felt the Dodgers were different from both the Jays and Rays. He was here in the spring helping kids learn the outfield - wonder if he spent time with Schneider in LF as he seems much better by the eye test vs last year, although raw stats don't show any improvement surprisingly.

For context, the Blue Jays SP rank 27th in fWAR and the RP rank 15th this year.

On usage of Hoffman. In April, Hoffman was used very heavily when the club really needed him and was aces. He struck out 22 in 15 innings while allowing 8 hit and 1 walk and throwing 2 innings when needed en route to a 1.17 ERA.

Since then, the club has been adding support for him, and yet his performance has been erratic. The usage pattern has been quite erratic depending on game situation. Since the All-Star Break, it's looked like this. He didn't pitch for a week around the break, but returned very strong striking out all 3 batters he faced on July 18. He then threw 4 games in 5 days with declining effectiveness. He then didn't throw for another week and was hit hard on his return. He then threw 4 games in 6 days and was effective. He then didn't throw for another week and had last night's outing with 5 walks. Those were his first walks since the All-Star break (and he had only surrendered one home run).

My take. I would even things out a bit. No more than 5 days without action even if it means giving him an inning in a blowout in Colorado (or anywhere else). Avoid 3 games in 4 days if at all possible and absolutely avoid 4 games in 5 days. No more multi-inning outings until the playoffs (and then only if he is effective in the interval).

I still think Hoffman is one of the key pitchers that the club will be counting on in the playoffs. It's nice to be able to write that.

I love painting myself into corners with absolutes... it makes life more interesting. Maybe it'll just be Boston that catches 'em instead.

I definitely think Kiermaier has provided some feedback to the front office regarding the Dodgers' prep. In past years, Toronto was always dominated by young pitchers with very little MLB experience. They haven't looked nearly as hopeless against those types of arms this year.

My take. I would even things out a bit. No more than 5 days without action even if it means giving him an inning in a blowout in Colorado (or anywhere else). Avoid 3 games in 4 days if at all possible and absolutely avoid 4 games in 5 days. No more multi-inning outings until the playoffs (and then only if he is effective in the interval).

With due respect, this seems like a convoluted "Joba Rules", cargo cult-like orthodoxy to try to create optimization & rein in entropy by adopting rigid regimentation. Without much evidence beyond reading the tea leaves of patterns that occurred prior to recent failures.

A simpler rationale is that Hoffman wasn't very good before he got to Philadelphia and wasn't with the Phillies very long. He signed with the Jays during the winter in the midst of the Sasaki/Soto embarrassments, when the FO was getting roasted for losing the offseason (again!). And after the 2024 bullpen was historically bad. There were also the rumours that the Orioles were close to signing Hoffman but backed away during the physical.

It's possible that Hoffman simply isn't the closer he's being paid to be (and was more of a setup guy anyway in the NL). That's not to say he can't be a good RP, but so far he's not the elite closer a contending team needs.

But he's being paid like a closer so he's going to be treated like one until it becomes untenable.

Often they seem to have scouting from the players who faced them in the minors. They also have that new pitching machine.

They made a pretty significant investment in Varland too and he seems to have closer stuff so i'd be interested and unsurprised to see him get some closing opportunity.

With due respect, this seems like a convoluted "Joba Rules", cargo cult-like orthodoxy to try to create optimization & rein in entropy by adopting rigid regimentation. Without much evidence beyond reading the tea leaves of patterns that occurred prior to recent failures.

O.K., pooks, a challenge. Tell us what that means exactly. Those two sentences are trying soo hard; it’s a shame, but they’re about as effective as Rodriguez’s command these days. Even Ross might say so.

For a sweet but brief moment in time, at least a summer, I trusted Casey Janssen in the 9th inning. Roberto Osuna, before all the unpleasantness, was also generally stress-free.

The Joba Rules was an extreme the Yankees did that didn't work (he had 2 years as a starter after that, and finished sub 10 in bWAR lifetime). These rules seem reasonable - no reliever should be left sitting for a week unless a TON of rainouts or the All-Star Game are involved. 4 games in 5 days should be rare for all relievers, only done when you have no confidence in anyone else during a critical stretch. These aren't hard and fast rules, more common sense - like NEVER using Kirk as a pinch runner, or Straw as a pinch hitter outside of very odd circumstances (sac bunt needed then Straw might make sense).

Should we hang John Schneider in effigy when he breaks those rules? No, but it certainly does earn him a lot of questions from the media post-game and a lot of fans asking what is up with him.

Tell us what that means exactly.

It essentially boils down to the fact that creating orderly restrictions & systems around a mercurial thing like day-to-day relief pitching performance doesn't reduce chaos unless proven otherwise.

Sometimes there is a desire to reduce entropy through discipline & orderliness. But rules for the sake of rules don't reduce randomness or bad outcomes without definitive proof of causation.

I see. Can you speak clearly and precisely though? Say what you mean? Your reach exceeds your grasp here.

cargo-cult/optimization/entropy/reading the tea leaves/mercurial/chaos/definitive proof of causation. Such big-sounding words, so pleased with themselves; and such murky metaphors. C’mon.

Can you speak clearly and precisely though? Say what you mean? Your reach exceeds your grasp here.

cargo-cult/optimization/entropy/reading the tea leaves/mercurial/chaos/definitive proof of causation. Such big-sounding words, so pleased with themselves; and such murky metaphors. C’mon.

Batter's Box is a Peña.

A what? A Peña.

And what, pray tell, is a Peña?

In short, Batter's Box aims to be a place for smart, literate, congenial, well-researched, insightful and original baseball commentary. We're very glad you visited, and we hope you'll stay.

3. Respect others. You might disagree with someone's opinion, but don't make it personal. Do not issue personal insults to other posters. Other posters are not jerks or morons; their opinion might be out to lunch but they are not. Similarly, players and front office personnel deserve our respect.

Some (well, Robert Browning) might be in favour of reach exceeding grasp:

Ah, but a man's reach should exceed his grasp, Or what's a heaven for?

It would be fabulous if Houston somehow managed to beat Crochet and the Red Sox tonight. That would significantly slow Boston’s pursuit of the Blue Jays.

"so pleased with themselves ..."

Ah, yes, I find myself agreeing with this phrase although potentially not with its intended target.

As the Dems said after the assassination attempt on Trump, "tome down the rhetoric."

The ultimate Canadian transgression: being pleased with yourself.

It’s not that I disagree with your opinion, pooks: it’s that I can’t make out what it is -- even whether or not it is, in fact, an ‘opinion’.

(I don’t know what a Peña is either.)

Respect is earned, over time usually.

Ah, greenfrog, we collide again. Perhaps I should have said “undeservedly" pleased? You *are* determined, I’ll give you that.

And if "being pleased with yourself" simply lapses into smugness — yeah that seems transgressive, wouldn’t you say?

Please keep the edgy opinions and predictions coming, Marc Hulet. It's a heckuva lot more interesting to read than people saying they are hoping for a player to do well, and then passing it off as a prediction when it comes to fruition.

Truce accepted Dewey. I did find your replies somewhat puzzling & aggressive. But we've both been here on da Box since (almost) the beginning. I thought maybe it was time to revisit & reflect on the site's About & FAQ pages.

The excerpts I included were from those sections on the Masthead.

I believe it was one of the site's founders Jordan Furlong who has a now 20+ year old post describing the Box as a Peña.

It's explained in greater detail in the FAQ section, but the premise as I understand it is that a Peña is a Latin American cultural tradition where men in the community will gather for hours in the public square in the midday sun to passionately & skillfully debate the local 9.

I was trying to point out that the original founding creed of this site involved fraternity & a level of discussion higher than can easily be found elsewhere.

Apologies for derailing the discussion about the team.

My broader overarching point to Mike Green's suggested restrictions on Hoffman's usage (no 7 days without an appearance, restrictions on # of appearances in 4 & 5 day stretches, no multi-inning appearances for the rest of the year) should get some sober second thought whether there's empirical evidence of any benefit or correlation. Or are we creating more rules for the sake of rules, trying to control what can't be controlled & creating doctrine from events preceding bad results.

Another thing that came to mind was whether there is some blending of motives here. Namely health vs performance.

The orthodoxy behind not pitching relievers for a 3rd day consecutively seems to be centered around health & prevention (though I'm not sure the public data is there either).

But if it is suddenly being proposed to limit Hoffman's consecutive appearances after extreme wildness & a week of inactivity, that's not about caution, that's about improving performance.

And while health & performance certainly do have much overlap, the optimal strategies may differ depending on which motivation outranks the other.

"Please keep the edgy opinions and predictions coming, Marc Hulet. It's a heckuva lot more interesting to read than people saying they are hoping for a player to do well, and then passing it off as a prediction when it comes to fruition."

Oh absolutely!

Thanks for the Browning quote greenfog.

Wasn't aware of Robert Browning nor Andrea del Sarto, neither the painter nor the poem,

Christian Javier had his TJ almost two months after Bieber, and he's back in action tonight against the Red Sox and pitching well. Everyone has their own timeline.

Astros up 5-2 on Crochet's Sox. Crochet gone after 4. Now 7-2 after 5 - thanks Jordan Hicks.

Is there any team that doesn't have innings limits for young pitchers, especially those with low innings the year prior?

Has anyone here seen empirical evidence that limiting innings is actually effective or prevents future injury?

Maybe it got lost in the depths of these polite disputes...but i think someone was saying that the jays' bullpen (made up of all good relievers but no dependable proven high leverage guys) might be a bullpen to employ a more egalitarian strategy sharing the various leverage situations between all of them and using rest and more non-leverage matchup criteria to determine usage.

If someone was saying that then i agree with them.

It's hard to even know who to root for in the HOU-BOS series. You feel like it's HOU, but ultimately it may well be BOS. The Astros will have the tie-breaker over the Jays unless the Jays can sweep Houston at the Dome.

Jays are now 5 up in the loss column, plus the tiebreaker.

I get the point about Houston, but for me, winning the East is paramount.

Winning the East is an achievement, but a hollow one if they still have to play a wild card series.

Yeah, I think they would do better if they would focus on regular play and rest for the relievers rather than using the guy that best fit the need regardless of when he last pitched.

Dodgers played the Angels tonight in their "natural rivalries" series. Some teams have it tough this year, Jays-Phillies, Mariners-Padres, Yankees-Mets. Some not so much. Houston gets 6 games vs the Rockies.

This was the 4th game in the Angels-Dodgers Freeway Series, Angels jumped out to a 7-0 lead and held on for a 7-4 win. Angels have now won all 4.

The Angels must be throwing strikes.

“In terms of the set-up guy,” Schneider said, “I think it’s going to be a little bit fluid between a few guys, between rest and availability. All these guys are fine with that.”

To ease the process, Toronto’s coaching staff checks in with the relievers before every game and series. They tell the available pitchers which innings to be ready for and which specific batters or lane of the lineup to prepare against.

Dave Roberts on Ohtani trying to steal third with 2 out and Freddie Freeman batting, " It was his decision. It was not a good baseball play."

I like Roberts not shying away from criticizing his superstar for making a boneheaded play.

Good to hear coach's quote on the setup guy there....but i think some of us were hoping that new plan also covered the closer role too.

Between the gambling controversy and now the real estate lawsuit, I think Ohtani makes bad decisions away from baseball, too. There used to be a popular saying about judging a person based off the company they keep...

Yeah Ohtani's golden boy image is starting to look a little superficial all of a sudden.

Should be rooting for the Red Sox against the Astros, in my opinion. As mentioned the Astros own the tiebreaker unless the Jays can sweep them in the next series, and even then the season series would be tied. The Jays own the tiebreaker over the Red Sox so the lead (while not significant by any means) is still fairly comfortable. If the Astros and Tigers both finish ahead of the Jays then the Jays are likely hosting a playoff series in a Wild Card round regardless (either as a division winner or WC1 if Boston overtakes them) so finishing ahead of at least one of Houston or Detroit is a bigger priority.

These are interesting questions but it seems a bit early to figure out exactly which outcome in the Boston-Houston series would be best for the Blue Jays. This is because we currently don’t know which AL postseason contenders will perform the best during the rest of the regular season. I think we can all agree that securing a bye to the ALDS is the primary goal. There are many combinations of opponent wins and losses that could help the Blue Jays achieve that goal, and many combinations that could make it harder for them to do this.

uglyone - no idea who would've said that, but I also agree there are advantages to it - no need to wear down anyone, just use whoever is 'hot' at the time, or who appears to be best for certain matchups. The 2 best at saving baserunners, thus best to use mid-inning are Yariel Rodríguez & Brendon Little - both allow below 15% to score so far this year. Rodriguez has had the most at 30 inherited, 4 scored. Little 22 inherited, 3 scored. Fluharty has inherited 26 allowing 7 to score (27%), and Fisher inherited 25 allowing 8 to score (32%) which might explain why he isn't used as much as some would like. Only 2 others had 10+ inherited so far - Chad Green (who cares), and Hoffman (sucks at it - 10 inherited 8 scored - yikes!!!!).

Comes in with high leverage 10+ times: Hoffman (duh) at 26, Little 22, Rodriguez 18, and Chad Green at 11. Fisher is next at 9 (surprised? I was). Fluharty and Sandlin are at 8.

Only Hoffman has 10+ games with 0 days rest. Others with 5+ are Rodriguez, Little, Green, Fisher, and Fluharty.

TGhe more I look the more it seems the most trusted 5 are Hoffman-Rodriguez-Little-Fisher-Fluharty, with the new guys getting a lot of trust too (Dominguez & Varland). I'm guessing we'll see how much trust those 2 get as September approaches. Right now I suspect Fluharty is about to get a LOT more trust.

FYI: Leverage Index has a 1 as 'normal', Fluharty's last game vs Ohtani & Betts with the based loaded and a 1 run lead was a 9.86. Hoffman has 3 5's, Yariel's top is a 4.39, Little's 3.97 to give an idea of how insane that pressure was. In 1992 Henke's highest was 6.21, 4.87 in all post seasons. Ward's highest post season was a 4.11 (1992 vs Atlanta runner on 2nd in 8th 1 run lead 2 out - he threw a wild pitch while K'ing the batter but he reached, then groundout to end the threat after a SB) which had a acLI of 264.46 (championship leverage - he had 3 more in the 100's of that between 92 and 93). If curious, Fluharty's had a acLI of 13.45 (still insane for a regular season game in August).

Had to also check the ultimate reliever with the most post season pressure - Mariano Rivera. Highest post-season leverage was 4.76 (2010 in extras, got the save), highest acLI was 661.67 in 2001 vs Arizona (blew a 9th inning lead and took the loss facing 10 batters in that one inning, game 7 changing a Yankee WS win to a loss). He had 9 other 100+ games - 3 saves, 2 wins, 1 hold (1996), and 3 where he didn't get a save/win/loss/hold (tie games that stayed that way while he was there).

Schneider should be more open to just using the hot hands in high leverage. Look at Houston last night vs Boston... they used two career milbers to close out Boston in a one-run game, including one who was designated for assignment by Atlanta a week ago.

I believe a number of studies have shown which team a fan roots for or against has no statistical significance unless the fan is the umpire behind home plate. :)

Houston only did so cuz Hader is hurt and Abreu threw 1.2 innings the night before.

Schneider will continue to use a typical bullpen hierarchy, as every team in baseball does.

As for Ohtani, the gambling issue was a simple betrayal of trust IMO. AFAIK, the interpreter had no criminal past.

The real estate lawsuit on the other hand is unsurprising, considering the way he played the Jays a few years ago. He had no intention of leaving LA and simply used the Jays as leverage to get as much out of the Dodgers as he could, including his camp leaking false information like the "plane to Toronto".