Anyone have access to ESPN insider? There is an article there regarding Hillenbrand to the Jays.

Back when I was doing my best Ron Darling impression in a little league game, I accidentally hit my hat and knocked it off my head during my windup. I didn't want to balk, so I ended up just trying to throw the pitch. It ended up going 40 feet over the batters head. But I didn't balk. :)

All they say on ESPN inside is that the Jays have offered prospects to the D-Backs while the Mets have offered Cliff Floyd.

The rest of the information seems to be camouflaged...

I saw this late last night: it appears that Washington city council caved to MLB's demands for a stadium built entirely with tax revenues.

From the article:

"We are also pleased that our discussions with Washington's elected leaders over the last several days have helped each side better understand the concerns of the other," Selig said. "We are now more confident than ever of a long and productive relationship with the city of Washington as we move forward with this great project."

Anyone have access to ESPN insider?

You don't need it, it's just information they pull from newspapers. I'm sure this was from yesterday's edition of the Sun.

I used to be a volenteer umpire for young boys and girls baseball leagues. If the kids were really young it was hard to keep focus, because every infield hit turned into a comedy of errors that led to a home run. The average final scores were usually like 36-33.

One particular game I completely zoned out, then the next thing I noticed was that everyone was waiting for me to make a call, so I gave an emphatic 'SAFE'! I guess the kid was apparently out by a mile because it caused an uproar among the parents. I even heard one dad say 'I'm gonna kill that #(%&#$ umpire after the game'

- I forget who was pitching, but I saw the ball squirt out of his hand and go nearly straight up in the air and land behind him on the mound..

- Once on a rainy day, the Jays were ahead a couple runs in the Top of the 5th.. I forget why the Jays really wanted the win, maybe it was the pennant race, maybe a pitcher going for 20 wins??

anyway the rains picked up and Alfredo Griffin came to the plate. The First pitch was a foot outside but he took a good hack at it... during the second pitch he practically committed to swinging before the wind-up... the slippery ball went about 3 feet over his head and he swung anyway... the UMP'S hands went up and a rain delay was called...

about an hour later poor Alfredo had to come up with 2 really bad strikes against him... I think the Jays actually lost that game..

My wife was coaching a team of five and six year old girls, and one game that I was at, the smallest girl on the team got nailed right in the batting helmet with a pitch. She fell down backwards and I thought it was going to be a real disaster, but then she sat up, rubbed her head under the helmet, and then suddenly looked up at the umpire and said "Do I get to go to first base now?" The umpire nodded yes, and the girl jumped up and ran to first, cheering "Yaaaaayyyyyyy" with her arms outstretched, like she was flying.

FYI--An article in the G&M quoted JP was interested in Wade Miller, but worried about the shoulder. The article also confirmed that he was interested in Hillenbrand.

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1103583009881&call_pageid=969907739730&col=970081600908&DPL=IvsNDS%2f7ChAX&tacodalogin=yes
Not sure if this was linked yesterday, but COMN for a Griffin article that describes his change of attitude in regards to Delgado's hustle and work ethic.

http://nypost.com/sports/mets/36979.htm
Related to the previous posting, the NY Post has an article with Carlos Tosca talking up Carlos Delgado to the Mets (COMN).

From Griffin's column:

I used to be among those ripping Carlos for his perceived lack of hustle and leadership. But, over his final two years, his clubhouse work ethic and quiet leadership became beacons.

Since Griffin has been known to change his tune in order to cast the Blue Jays in the worst possible light, I have my doubts about Delgado actually changing. Griffin's attacks on Delgado a few years ago were almost always baseless and unjustified. On several occasions during that time, players and coaches on the Blue Jays came to Delgado's rescue and praised Delgado for the things that Griffin is just now waking up to. It was only after it became clear the Blue Jays had come to regret Delgado's contract that Griffin couldn't say enough good things about him.

Griffin has cried wolf too many times for me to take his comments now seriously.

The game where Griffen swung at the sky was Jack Morris going for win #20 in his first year as a Jay. After the rain delay the Jays did win the game and Morris got win #20 (still have the Sun from the next day). Very exciting as no Jay had done it before then (1992). Poor Dave Stieb had to sit on the bench and watch it too.

http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/index.php?sty=33509
For all those who were worried about the Jays acquiring Shea Hillenbrand, seems there's less need to worry. COMN

You have to scroll to the bottom.

Thank god. Last thing we need is a Hinske Part 2 (Shea H).

Anyone know the official number of "sources" that are out there. Seems nearly every article, every post anymore, someone is quoting a different "source" When in reality the source could be the GM to Vito the hot dog vender outside their office.

Phew. Yeah, at 4M Hillenbrand would be disasterous.

Anyone know the official number of "sources" that are out there. Seems nearly every article, every post anymore, someone is quoting a different "source" When in reality the source could be the GM to Vito the hot dog vender outside their office.

Another thing to rememeber is that agents are frequently sources, and that they're not giving information to reporters out of the goodness of their hearts -- they're going to use the media to try to get a better contract for one of their players.

Good thing I doublechecked these posts before commenting on today's song lyrics. Props to Dan Julien.

Major League Portion that come to mind:
- Homerun bouncing off Canseco's head in RF
- Kevin Mitchell forgetting about his glove on a barehand catch in foul territory
- Bo Jackson sprinting three strides up the wall

My sad life defining moments that come to mind:
- I was pitching a game in university when my arm did a "Dravecky" in the fifth inning and the humorous bone snapped in half. Hey we won the game though.
- One year our all-star team had an infield that consisted of myself (2b) and three guys who, in the winter, were enforcers on three separate OHL teams. In a game against Cawthra one of their players tries to run our catcher to legitimately knock the ball loose. No problem. The fellas took exception when the runner got upset and took a swing at our catcher after he held on to the ball. Funniest thing I ever saw. Each member of the infield (except for me the pacifist) immediately charged into the ruckus (sp?) and between the three of them plus our (crazy) pitcher, they had seven guys pinned down and getting pummeled. Everyone else on our team sat back and laughed. Nobody else on their team dared leave the dugout.

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20041222/SPT04/412220401/1071/SPT
With the Reds signing of Joe Randa this article (COMN) speculates that Austin Kearns may be available for trade since the Reds would have Dunn, Griffey and Pena in the OF.

I have no knowledge of what the Reds need, but I would imagine Kearns should be enticing to JP.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1951346
JD Drew signs with the Dodgers (COMN). Not sure if it had been reported here yet.

Okay, yesterday we had a lot of people here shooting down the possibility of aquiring Hillenbrand, but we won't get back in to that today.

Since most people seemed to think it would be a bad move, I'd like to here some suggestions as to some better alternatives for the Jays.

I think we can all agree that we probably won't be aquiring any more F/A bats. So, who could the Jays trade for that would add significantly more to this team? Can anyone think of someone YOU think J.P. should be targeting, and if so, does a potential deal make sense for both the Jays, and the other team involved.

I remember a few humorous things.

When Satchell Paige played for Miami in the International league and came to Toronto the first time, Jack Kent Cooke flew him into the bullpen by helicopter to a waiting rocking chair.

Any game involving Eddie Feigner and the King and his Court.

Sitting in the bleachers at Maple Leaf Stadium in the front row by the Havana bullpen and the first night game of the season. Started snowing and watched the cuban players amazed at the snow and giggling.

I got to throw out the first pitch at a Round Rock Express game a while back. I hadn't thrown a baseball forcefully in ages, and it felt like a pea compared to a softball. I remembered someone telling me the most common mistake was to short-hop the pitch because the mound slope changes the trajectory. Well, I threw it about five feet over the pitchers head and nailed the backstop. The PA announcer yelled "Whoooooaaaa! A little too much on that one!" and the crowd roared.

To further the indignity, the catcher wasn't actual prospect John Buck but the bullpen catcher.

Kearns would be great, but it would take A LOT to pry him from the Reds - that is, if he's even available. Gammons mentioned that the Reds wanted Harden from the A's for him, no? If that is the case, I assume that corresponds to the equivalent of say Bush, Rios and Hill - at least that's what I'd imagine. Also, now that they've signed Randa, the interest which they were believed to previously have in Hinske is obviously no longer present.

What is the strangest thing you've ever seen on a baseball field?

Gosh, I dunno. You mean besides Greg Myers' inside-the-park HR?

I guess I have to go with Dave Winfield: Gullslayer. My ex and I were sitting in the long metal benches in right field, and we had actually noticed the gull sitting there in right-centre as Winfield (in center) warmend up with whoever was playing RF that night.

Money quote, courtesy of Billy Martin: "That's the first time he's hit the cut-off man all year."

Tony Batista fielding a foul ball and then trotting over to the stands, flipping up his sunglasses, and awarding the ball to an attractive lass in the front row.

His whole body language was "How are YOU doin'?"

It was pretty funny.

From ESPN.com regarding The Big Trade That Couldn't:

Yankees president Randy Levine had harsh words for the Dodgers after the deal's collapse..."It sure is disappointing, and we'll have to think long and hard before ever doing business with the Dodgers again."

The idea of the Yankees feeling hard done by just cracks me up. Ooh, those poor Yankees, they don't get to flex their financial muscle to acquire another aging superstar whose former team can't afford him. Boo-hoo! So unfair!

Not that I agree with how the Dodgers handled this, if it is as much of a re-neg as the Yanks would have us believe. But if I'm a team with no albatross contracts the loss of the Yankees as a trading partner is no loss at all. Let's see, they've got two decent prospects and zero reasonably priced major leaguers. Yup, lotta potential to do business with them!

I beleive it's been asked on here a couple of times, but what would it take to get Durazo? What would Oakland need or want out of the deal?

So I trolled the Internet looking for some articles, regarding Kearns - and I found out this - the Reds would consider Kearns for good, young, inexpensive pitching - shocking!

One article mentioned Kearns for one of the Big Three (now the Big One) from the A's. The other mentioned Dan Meyer, formerly of the Braves - now in Oakland.

Would anyone make a trade for Kearns if it includes Bush? I think you almost have to. Bush looks like a good one, but good young power hitters seem to be rare in the Jays system. Kearns career line is pretty interesting - 277/372/837 - he's young, and he's under control for another 2 or 3 years and he's right handed. K's a lot, but, also takes walks.

The other consideration, after browsing the articles, was the reason that the Reds tried Kearns at 3rd was because Casey is a fixture at 1st base. Casey would also look good in blue, and wouldn't cost the same caliber of prospects due to his salary ($7.8M this year, $8.5 next). A minor drawback is he's a leftie.

My sister played rep ball, she was about 16, and a reasonably sized girl catcher, 5'6", 140 lbs, good muscle.

Anyways, we were at a tournament in Ottawa, when she's covering the plate as an absolutely massive girl is charging down on her. Girl must've been 6'4", 200+ lbs. Huge, huge girl. I think she was their pitcher.

So the girl barrels down on her, and when the collid the runner bounces off my sister like she was a wall. The runner bounces back maybe five feet where she falls on her ass. Sitting there, on the baseline, the umpire calls her out and the entire crowd laughs and laughs and laughs. You really need a sense of the size of the proportions to see why it's so funny, but I cried.

If we had other pitching prosepcts knocking at the door and ready for the rotation, I might consider it. But right now, Bush has way too much upside IMO. He looked great last year, and dealing him him now would leave a gaping hole in our rotation.

Casey would also look good in blue

Which team is that? :P

I'll echo Pumped's thoughts. Unless the Jays make a move to acquire another starter, I think Bush is too valuable in the rotation as it stands now.

How about Larry Walker catching the ball and flipping it to a fan, only to notice that was not the third out and there was a guy flying around the bases. He had get the ball back from the fan and throw it into the infield. Canseco's ball off the head was funniest.

My funniest moment live was during a mid innings promotion in Edmonton. The had a deal where a little kid starts at second and the mascot starts in the batters box. They were to race home. The mascot, Homer is a big furry baseball with arms and legs. Homer was just flying around third base trying to catch the kid. Homer would usually almost catch the kid but then trip at the last second letting the kid win the big prize and applause. I guess Matt LeCroy, catcher of the AAA Trappers (now with Minny), a fairly big boy, saw that Homer was going to catch the kid. I am not sure if he knew Homer usually bagged it at the end but he took it upon himself to help the kid. He came out of the dugout at full speed and just creamed poor Homer, he of limited peripheral vision. You could not see the guy inside of the mascot or his reaction but from his movements it was clear he had no idea what had happened. Talk about a hard day at work.

It seems kind of mean now but it sure was funny at the time.

OK, this was not a game I attended, but I'm sure there are many out there who remember when Kenny Williams was a Blue Jay.

Running the bases.

This way and that way.

Knocking his third-base coach flying.

It was evident even then that we were watching a future GM.

Embarassing Moment:

When I was 15 or so, a pitcher unleashed a pitch high and inside. I started to back up and it just chased me. I eventually got hit in the head about 4 steps out of the batters box.

Even I was in stiches at the absurdity of running into a curve ball. The ump even joked that I shouldn't get first because I didn't try to get out of the way.

Maybe everyone is just come to expect it with all the crazy signings this month but what's up with a 5 year deal for JD? He has had one healthy season for God's sake.

There was a funny promotion last year at a game that I was at. There were three people outside of SkyDome each with a key to a Minivan. Only one key would open the van. The first two people, a guy and an old lady, tried their keys with no luck. The third guy started to do a victory dance as he went to try his key, which surprisingly didn't work. Even the host looked shocked. He asked the first guy and the old lady again if they had tried their key. From what I could tell, the old lady had put her key in, but didn't turn it. She tried again and it opened. The third guy ended up doubled over on the ground in disappointment.
I think the game sucked, so at least that was enjoyable.

I'm a catcher in my league, and the weirdest moment was when i tried to gun the runner down stealing third. The pitch was in the dirt so i went down to block it. I realised i could still get the runner, so I tried to throw from one knee, my back foot straight. At that moment, my back foot slipped and i ended up throwing a line to our pitchers head.

It was a long walk back to the dugout afterwards.

http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/TorontoSun/Sports/2004/12/22/793281-sun.html
Reasonable article by Mike Rutsey today ( unlike most local baseball writers, he actually quotes J.P.), about his frustration about getting players to come to Toronto.

At the bottom of the page he mentions a lot of teams have interest in Scott Schonenweis,this guy would make a very good Loogy.

Can anyone think of someone YOU think J.P. should be targeting, and if so, does a potential deal make sense for both the Jays, and the other team involved.

That's a tough one. I am sure we can all think of players we think the Jays should target, but working out the trade details, that is the tough part.

1. I love Brad Wilkerson of the Montreal Expos / Washington Nats / Whatever they may be called next week. He plays 1B/OF and would fit our needs well -- however, since they have a $3.2MIL/yr contract with Castilla, it is unlikely they need a guy like Hinske.

2. I like Craig Wilson and was intrigued by the rumours about him.

3. Hee Sop Choi if he was given away for free -- i.e. Hee Sop Choi for a very crappy minor leaguer.

That's my 2-cents...

Christopher, that was opening day 2004. It was indeed hilarios, and the game was indeed a disaster.

Hilarious, even.

I volunteer as an ump at a local little league. The 16 year olds were having their championship game and then the weirdest play I've ever seen happened.

With runners on 1st and 2nd and 1 out, one team decided to try and pull off a double steal. The catcher on the opposing team gunned the ball to second but it was wide right by a lot. The center fielder who was charging in to backup the throw to 2nd made one of the most athletic plays I've seen for someone this young. While sprinting to back up the play he saw the ball sailing to his left and made a dive to his left, somehow caught the ball, got up, and fired a laser to the 3rd basemen who reached over and tagged the runner who had started on 2nd and was rounding 3rd because of the overthrow. Then, the kid who started on 1st didn't understand what was happening and got himself caught in a rundown with the 3rd basemen and the CENTER FIELDER who ran in to get the guy in a rundown. The 3rd basemen gunned it to the CF and the CF got the tag.

Don't even ask me what that looks like if your keeping score at home ;)

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/splits3?statsId=6171&type=pitching
Here's Schoeneweis' 3 year splits. He's been miscast as a starter due to a lack of a solid third pitch.(Comm)

I was just thinking, is Corey Koskie the biggest free agent to sign with the Jays since Roger Clemons?

memories coming back...

I remember a couple years ago a game against Cawthra or Sheridan. Well anyways, we were the home team and being the home team we chose 1st base dugout, the one we used the entire season. This guy thought that there was an unwritten rule that we should be on 3rd base side. We refused to go, and this lunatic forfeited the game.

Any game involving Eddie Feigner and the King and his Court.

Wow, Stan -- you must be a few years older than me. I do remember Feigner very well (one of my fastpitch coaches once no-hit the Court and homered off the King to win 1-0) but Havana wasn't in the IL any more when I became a Leafs fan, and I missed out on seeing Satch in Toronto, though I recall his outing when he was allegedly 59 and shut out big league hitters for three innings.

Strangest, not-at-all-funny big-league memory: Steve Yeager almost getting killed in the on-deck circle when a shattered bat impaled his jugular vein. Gitz and I both happened to be at that game in San Diego, though I might remember it better, since he was about six in '76 and I was in my twenties.

I could go on and on about weird plays in youth baseball. My son once "homered" off the pitcher's leg in a Rep game. The ball ricocheted into shallow right field, and Matt (who could fly) picked me up at third. I kept waving, he kept running. Whoever finally retrieved the ball threw behind him into 2B, then the SS rushed his relay to third. It was officially scored a 100-foot double and two errors, but our dugout emptied anyway.

Most unlikely event on any diamond: My first year coaching UFA, the school only went up to Grade 11 and had maybe 200 students, at least half of them girls. The biggest kid on our team was about 5' 8" and 160 pounds, the oldest was 16. We played Western Tech, a huge, established sports power whose infielders looked like their football offensive line. They started a 19-year-old, 6' 3" flamethrower with nasty breaking stuff and ran up a 10-1 lead by the third.

We won, 11-10. Yogi was right.

The problem with Schoeneweis, as I mentioned in a previous thread, is that he demanded to be in the White Sox rotation. He had a phenomenal couple of months last year before ruining his season by trying to pitch through an injury that eventually ended his season. He’d be an interesting pickup but be warned, he hardly strikes out or walks anyone so he’s very dependent on team defence for his success.

I don't understand how anyone could justify kearns for bush trade. First, kearns becomes a free agent in 3 years, bush in 6 years. I also think he is arb eligible. He has been injury prone, and had a really bad year. And by the way, his best season:
315/407/500

You have to be nuts to offer anything of substantial value for kearns. Perhaps perkins/John ford griffin for kearns would make sense.

I may have already posted this on Da Box, but one of my favorite moments was when Billy Ripken fouled a ball off his foot, which was moderately painful, and hardly worth mentioning. Well, it turns out there was a baserunner on third base, and the ball, after hitting Ripken's ankle, rolled down the third-base line. So in comes the third sacker, in comes the runner from third, neither aware the ball is foul. All the while Ripken is hobbling around the batter's box. The third baseman scoops up the foul dribbler, and, trying to nab the baserunner trying to score, fires it home -- drilling Ripken in the head with the throw.

Actually Schoenweis struck out 77 batters in 93 IP as a reliever, not a bad K rate at all. As Christian pointed out however, his desire to be a starter,( and who could blame him with these $ 7 million contracts), is a problem.

Not to start an arguement, since I'm not convinced that I would do a Kearns for Bush trade - but if you want something of value you have to be prepared to give something of value. And the best trades are when both teams trade from a position of strength, i.e. the Reds have excess OFs and we have some young pitching making it's way up the ranks.

And his best season looks pretty good to me - he's "Delgado lite".

Delgado's career line - .282 .392 .948
Kearn's career line - .277 .372 .837

I grant that he has been injured alot, but maybe that's what makes him available.

http://tsf.waymoresports.thestar.com/thestar/baseball/player.cgi?2825
COMN for Kearns' career line, including minor league record. He has not played a full season since 2000. His performance when healthy has deteriorated each of the last 2 years.

Blue, is it safe to assume those lines are AVG / OBP / OPS? Looks mighty strange to those of us used to seeing AVG / OBP / SLG/

I may have already posted this on Da Box, but one of my favorite moments was when Billy Ripken fouled a ball off his foot

Am I the only one who can't read Billy Ripken's name without the words "f**k face" coming to mind?

As for strangest/funniest moment on a baseball field... I don't know why, but several "confrontations" stick out in my mind. George Bell's karate kick, and Todd Stottlemyre's bodyslam were fun, but it's hard to top Nolan Ryan pounding on Robin Ventura or Pedro-Zim...

http://www.bluejayway.ca
Game 5 1991 ALCS

Fan runs out of the stands in left field corner, whips his pants down and moons Dan Gladden. He proceeds to sprint off towards the other outfielders. Finally tackled in right center.

Question for y'all..should the Jays offer deal offered to Clement to Either Perez, or Millwood?

To understand this moment, first you have to know that I run slow. I run Richie Zisk-looks-like-Omar-Moreno slow. So in junior league, I'm on first base (somehow; it happened so rarely, you'd think I'd have the details) and our power-hitting catcher Chris raps one off the wall. We both take off running. The center fielder makes a perfect throw to the plate and I'm going to be out by thirty feet. Fortunately, I hear our third base coach screaming "no, no, come back!" So I stop dead and turn around and head back to third. Unfortunately, Chris, who by now is about a step and a half behind me DOESN'T hear the coach's cry (which was of course directed at him, not me) and he barrels past me into the tag; he was out already, of course, for passing me, but the catcher tags him anyway and fires the ball the third base -- I told you I was slow -- in time to allow the third basema to tag me out going back into third.

Maybe the strangest douhle play of all time, but the crowd was laughing so hard, I don't think anyone cared, except perhaps our third base coach.

http://toronto.bluejays.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/tor/news/tor_news.jsp?ymd=20041222&content_id=925071&vkey=news_tor&fext=.jsp
The mailbag is up at bluejays.com
COMN

but if you want something of value you have to be prepared to give something of value.

That's crazy talk.

The only trades the Jays can make involve giving up Batista, Hinske, and/or marginal minor leaguers, especially if BA said at one time that they had good tools. And you must get a great young player in return, preferably at 1B.

I've got a feeling that Moorad coveting Shawn Green was the driving force in this three way deal. That's why it's been so difficult for the Yankees and D-backs to work on a simple two-way deal: the 'Backs want Vazquez, another established player and the two prospects from the Yankees; the Yanks are reluctant to part with that much.

For some reason, despite being vastly overpaid, Shawn Green was viewed as desirable. I'd rather have Vazquez, Duncan and Navarro than Green, Penny and Brazoban, especially if the Yanks threw in some financial relief for Vazquez's contract. In Vazquez they'd have a pitcher in his prime for a number of years; Penny would have been a free agent after 2005 if not signed to an extension.

In the proposed deal, Koplove, a very useful pitcher, was reportedly included. DePodesta just saved Garagiola from being hosed, at least temporarily.

A few funny moments from my baseball life...

In little league, I suppose I was probably 10 or so, I hit a line drive that went over the first baseman's head. Of course it was down the line so I was thinking extra bases, then in typical little league fashion... Numerous throwing errors ensue. To make a long story short, I end up sliding in at home, as the ball sailed over the catcher's head, thinking I had a "homerun" only to hear the umpire say "FOUL BALL".

In one league there was a kid on one of the opposing teams that said something about someone's mom or something like that. Anyway my buddy, who was a pitcher, decides that he is gonna bean him(I was a catcher). So throughout the course of the season we would always try and nail him with a fastball whenver the proper situation arose(which was pretty much anytime he came to the plate). No matter how often we tried my buddy would always miss. This went on for most of the season and it was at the point where we pretty much forgot why we were trying to hit him, but we kept at it. Finally, near the end of the year we got him! Unfortunately it was with a big slow breaking curveball and was completely unintentional. Even the guy we were trying to hit had to laugh.

Question for y'all..should the Jays offer deal offered to Clement to Either Perez, or Millwood?

The word 'No' does not contain enough letters to express the no-ness of the answer to that question.

Perez and Millwood could be good signings, but nowhere near $25/3. I'm not optimistic that either will have to settle for a sensible amount.

but it's hard to top Nolan Ryan pounding on Robin Ventura

Actually, Mark Whiten walking out to the mound, giving a "head fake" and one-punching Black(eye) Jack McDowell in the eye is a pretty close one...

Come to think if it, Kenny Williams running right over John MacLahren was right up there too...

and of course Rance Mulliniks hitting an inside the park home-run..

I was "at the park" for both of those

in 89, 90 and 91, I used to play Snare drum in a 6 piece "Labatt's Bleacher Creature Band",.. we would take over section 506-510 10-20 times a year on and play between innings for the fans that had free tickets... we'd get on the JumboTron a few times per game usually, on national TV once in a while..

One day during the 7th inning stretch, the cameras hit us all doing our "Ok BLue Jays" and right after us panned to a "heart-stoppingly beautiful young lady"... anyway the song ended, and I looked around, and 3 of us were standing there with both hands in the air and our mouths open... of course, back on the Jumbo-ron....

How about Larry Walker catching the ball and flipping it to a fan, only to notice that was not the third out and there was a guy flying around the bases. He had get the ball back from the fan and throw it into the infield. Canseco's ball off the head was funniest.

I think it was Kenny Lofton who landed the ball on Canseco's head and it bounced over the wall for a home run. Te best part was I had both of the players on my roto team so benefited by the Canseco gaff. Canseco continued to play and didn't miss any games as a result. Whew.

Playing highschool ball in Toronto in the 1980's, we had an game early in the season (early April) at Bond Park. They had yet to rake the infield dirt so it was still filled with love humps, bumps and trendmarks that are often left when wet dirt freezes over winter.

In the first inning, our leadoff hitter shot a single to RF and as he ran to first base he literally tripped over a hump in the infield dirt, nearly concussing himself -- only to be subsequently thrown out at first.

Ah, highschool baseball.

Crap, should really edit before posting --- my apologies

Playing high school ball in Toronto in the 1980's, we had a game early in the season (early April) at Bond Park. They had yet to rake the infield dirt so it was still filled with large humps, bumps and tread marks that are often left when wet dirt freezes over winter.

In the first inning, our leadoff hitter shot a single to RF and as he ran to first base he literally tripped over a hump in the infield dirt, nearly concussing himself -- only to be subsequently thrown out at first.

Ah, high school baseball.

Interesting Jays mailbag on MLB.com. Biggest news there is suggestion of Batista back in the rotation. I continue to be a fan of Speier as closer. I guess it would be Doc-Lilly-Batista-Bush-Towers?

Re: Zaun, I think the Jays should give him the 2 yer contract he is wanting, instead of 1+option. (Unless it's for $3M/per, or something.) If it's reasonable, like $1.5Mper, give it to him. Worst case, Quiroz is ready to be fulltime starter in 2006, and you're overpaying for Zaun as backup. But by how much? I don't mean to be too cavalier about $800,000, but it's really not that much, in the realm of "overpaying" or total team budgets.

our leadoff hitter shot a single to RF and as he ran to first base he literally tripped over a hump in the infield dirt

Yea, that just about happened to me too. if anybody's ever had the chance to play at Ninth Line ballpark in Oakville, they'd know the dirt isn't the best. Anyways, I was sliding into second when my front foot caught a steep bump rock thingy. I was proprelled into the air, and a flip and several rolls later, I found myself on the lip of the outfield, tagged out.

Snowboy, I disagree. Offer him a good deal for 1 year. If he gets a better deal elsewhere you get the draft pick and and you can get a another catcher off the scrap heap where Zaun came from. Last year was Zaun's best year and is likely to stay that way.

Ah, Ninth Line. My teenage stomping grounds. Go Erindale!

I should point out to our American readers (and authors) that with few exceptions, most kids' and teenagers' baseball diamonds are maintained with gravel, not dirt, so as to better withstand the winters. Ah, the joy of diving, sliding and catching amid piles of dust and finely chopped rocks.

Point being, if you think you've ever had a sliding raspberry before, you should try picking out dozens of pebbles out of your scarred, um, seat.

Point being, if you think you've ever had a sliding raspberry before, you should try picking out dozens of pebbles out of your scarred, um, seat.

You'd think that tearing your leg to pieces on a gravel infield once would be enough to dissuade you from sliding again, wouldn't you :)

At least 2 of the discolorations on my legs came when I was halfway into the slide and my brain went "you fool! Dont you remember what happened last time!"

Apparently not.

Funniest 'shouldnt-be-funny-but-sorta-is-since-it-didnt-happen-to-you'. Playing ball in a work league, I loft a shallow fly into right centre. The CF and RF both chase the ball, and they managed to collide into each other at nearly full speed, chest-to-chest.

Both their arms and legs fly out like it was a cartoon collision. Fortunately, no one was hurt.

Somehow, the CF managed to hold on to the ball, which kinda pissed me off at the time.

Thats why I liked Ninth line so much. The dirt, the horse, angry trailer guy, starry friday night games...

nightmare backstop for a catcher.

From rotoworld:

"The Devil Rays have some interest in signing Alex Gonzalez to play third base.
What an absolutely horrible idea. Dec. 22 - 1:57 pm et"

I concur.

Red Sox raid sky cheifs:
They signed Tally Haines, Jason Kershner and Simon Pond.

Randa signs with Reds, Kearns back to the OF.

I dig the Jays rotation with Batista in it. He could rebound this year, and I just don't see him being as much of an asset out of the 'pen.

funniest baseball-but-not-really-baseball moment:

Fan Appreciation Day, 1992. Murray Eldon announces that Joe Carter and dave Winfeild are giving away Derek Bell's car. They procede to drive it onto the field, waving at the crowd. The JumboTron pans to a wide-eyed, open-mouthed Bell looking absolutely horrified at the top of the dugout steps.

My mistake, it was Dave Winfield, not dave Winfeild.

Probably already posted but I read at rotoworld that the Jays are after Wade Miller. But then again, who isn't?

why were people even considering putting Batista in the Pen, for the bulk of the year his ERA was around 4. Only in the last month did he start struggling. He was in the top 10 in IP until September.

There was a game at SkyDome a few years ago where the ballboy in left field could not throw straight to save his life. He was warm-up tossing with Jose Cruz before each inning, and the balls were sailing to the warning track or towards the infield, and poor Jose had to chase them all down.

The fans in the sections along the left field line were mercillous in their comments towards this kid who probably quit right after the game.

JC I was at that game too, sitting in the RF seats, my and my boys were busting a gut over the ball boy. I remember the last one Cruz Jr just put his hands up after the ball sailed past him, haha so funny. The next inning Cruz played catch w/ the CF (Stewart I believe) and the 1st base ballboy played catch w/ Mondesi.

As the Mailbag says, if not Zaun then the alternative is Quiroz, a September callup. Is he ready? Possibly a platoon with Greg Myers, and I'll admit to being in the dark re: his health - it was a pretty serious injury, I don't know anything about his recovery, but for some reason "Age: 39" is the first thing I think of when I think Greg Myers right now?

The article says "expect Toronto to sign a low-cost veteran to split time with Myers". Like who? Sal Fasano is already signed...

http://toronto.bluejays.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/news/mlb_news.jsp?ymd=20041222&content_id=925074&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp
El Duque to sign with Sox. White, that is.COMN

I remember playing at 9th line and that horse started humping the other horse I think it was us and Sun Parlour or something and both teams just started howling.

9th line is THE diamond when you're a young teen in Ontario. I love that place.

http://rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/player_main.asp?sport=MLB&id=4517
Alou is supposed to sign 2 years for $13.6 million with San Fran.

COMN for the source -- Rotoworld

Who likes the idea of Tony Clark??

http://www.bluejayway.ca
Forgot this one when I posted my earlier story.

The first baseball game I attended way back in 1991 was Yankees vs Jays. When the worlds fastest grounds crew came out BJ Birdie accompanied them on a motor scooter. On their way back to the exit near the bullpen BJ Birdie not paying attention crashed into the outfield wall. Absolutely hilarious.

Tony Clark's last 3 seasons:

2004 .221/.297/.458
2003 .232/.300/.472
2002 .207/.265/.291

Not inspiring.

Funny baseball stories:
- fouled one off and turned just in time to see it going hard at my fathers face. he ended up turning his head enough so that his sunglasses took the brunt of it. He's an emergency doctor, and claimed if he had turned a little les he could have died from it hitting him in the temple(owen meany's/simon birched)
- Watched as the catcher on the other team sudden;y stood up and started to choke and retch. he had swallowed his chew, and in the end the whole diamon is cracking up.
- Watched a guy swing so hard during a practice that his knee came out
ambulance on the field and everything.
- As a youth(grade six or so) was doing some long toss with a friend and i heard a cheer from the soccer field, turned to look, and when i looked back took the ball square in the forehead. Led to a banning of hardballs from our school
I'm sure some more will come to me.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1951927
Wade Miller is a member of the Boston Red Sox, COMN.

Sometimes, it really sucks being a Jays fan.

On the funny/weird topic but in a different sport:

I used to officiate high school football, and on this particular night we had a mismatch between two small-town schools. At the half, the home team was up something like 20-0. I was talking to a volunteer doing the chains and he noticed I was carrying two flags. He asked if I'd ever thrown both on one play and I said, "no, not yet." (I'd been officiating about four years.)

The home team scores a touchdown about three minutes into the second half. On the extra point kick, a visiting player clocks a wingback two full seconds after the ball split the uprights, so I flag him. He turns to me and tells me what he thinks of my judgment. For the first time ever, out comes the second flag. He then curses the referee for good measure, draws another flag, and is ejected.

As a result of these three major penalties, the home team kicks off from the visitor's 15 yard line. Understandably, depspite being ahead 27-0 they try an onside kick. It fails but the visitors are pinned on their own two yeard line.

On the next play, the visiting quarterback, being chased down in his own endzone, hurls the ball into the stands with no receiver within 20 yards. Intentional grounding. Safety.

Baseball America's organizational reports cards blasted the Jays, giving them a D+ as an overall grade. They think J.P. overdrafted Purcey and Jackson, and think they have no impact players beyond Rios and Adams.

There Organizational Direction says: Took a huge step back in 2004, and it's hard to see how they'll contend any time soon and recapture the interest of Canadian Fans.

Not much good news regarding this franchise and we haven't had any for a long time. My faith in J.P. is waning. I had complete faith in what he said when they first hired him but that faith is fading quickly.

Wade Miller is a member of the Boston Red Sox, COMN.

Sometimes, it really sucks being a Jays fan.

Yes, what's frustrating about this sort of signing is that it's not the low budget that holds the Jays back. According to ESPN Miller is gauranteed $1.5M, and can earn another $3M in incentives. Another good low-risk potentially high-reward signing for Epstein.

anyone know what jp said on the fan just now.i turned my radio on at the end of the interview and basically missed all that he said.

First, that is disappointing news about Miller and the Sox...oh well.

Second, QOTD:

This summer I played in quite a few softball tournaments and was usually the pitcher (you know, you have to loft the ball 12 feet or so and land on the plate [rubber mat]). Well, after two and a half games of pitching, I was getting tired and so another guy took over the mound and proceeded to launch the ball, after an inning or two of good work, about 25 to 30 feet straight up in the air. Actually, it wasn't quite straight up as the ball landed five feet behind the mound. The game stopped for a good five minutes for everyone to regain their breathe. In the next three innings, he managed to duplicate the same feat two more times.

In 1999, me and another baseball fan (in a town of 900 in the middle of Manitoba, I know all 6 hardcore baseball fans :)) were lucky enough to see Canada take on Cuba at the brand new CanWest Global Park. Well, it was a slightly weird play that led to a really weird occurence...here's what happened. I believe it was Stubby Clapp that started all the fireworks as early in the game he reached base and then, on a subsequent base hit, round third and came barrelling home into a huge collision with the catcher, knocking the ball loose and the catcher on his back. The catcher got up and there was some jawing and yelling, but nothing sustantial. The next time Stubby was at the plate, the pitcher nailed him and sent him to first...obviously going for some revenge. Well, Stubby made it around the bases again and, again, when he came home it was another close play in which he aging leveled the catcher (who again dropped the ball). The led to more yelling, a mini brawl and the benches emptying. This is where it got funny, at least to me. As the players were just starting to get into it, a fan in the left field seats jumped onto the field wearing all camo and carrying a huge Cuba flag on a pole. The guy ran around the outfield waving his flag for a good ten minites and, when no security or police payed any attention to him, he walked back to the stands, climbed back over the rail and sat back down in his seat looking a bit disappointed. We laughed so hard at that guy...and Canada won...and Stubby became a hero of mine. It was good times. I also was lucky enough to attend the games in which Canada played (and beat) the US and Mexico.

Just talked about the Dodgers trade, and about players not wanting to come to Toronto, like Clement.

If Miller could have been had for 1.5 gauranteed and only 3 mill in incentives I'd be very surprised and dissapointed in JP.

W

How does BA think JP overdrafted Purcey and Jackson? Purcey pretty much went where they were predicting prior to the draft and Jackson went much lower than their expert analysis. Strange.

They think J.P. overdrafted Purcey and Jackson, and think they have no impact players beyond Rios and Adams.

They list Adams as an impact player but not Hill? What about League?

I'm extremely biased, but is BA always fair to the Jays? Sometimes it seems like they ahve a bit of a feud with JP. However, I don't know enough about the minor leagues to know if this is just my biases coming into play.

They talked about how free agents always come about with goofy hang-ups about playing in Canada. JP said he finds it bizarre and frustrating as players should know that Toronto is one of the greatest cities in North America. Clement was one player that had issues and even if Boston didn't pony up, he was probably headed to Cleveland. The Jays offered Kline more money but he still chose Baltimore. Koskie was offered more by the Dodgers but chose the Jays.

Is anybody else suprised by the Indians relative lack of activity in the FA market? I don't expect them to go after the Beltrans of the world but...

It appears as though JP is doing everything right. There very little anybody can do if a player doesn't want to come to Canada. Unfortunately Canadian "phobias" and stereotypes are one of the cards we're dealt. Just gotta keep tryin JP.

Canadian "phobias"

Is that akin to the "moral values" issues Bush seemingly won on?

Mike,

I'm starting to feel the same way about J.P. I think he'd better turn this off-season around pretty quickly, or he might be looking for a new job by this time next year. I'm as patient as the next guy, but come on,... how much can we as fans be expected to take. The BA report card offers even more discouragement as far as I'm concerned.

It seems that were becoming less and less like the Sox and Yanks, and more like Tbay, in terms of our ability to lure free agents here.

I don't like the fact that J.P. is playing the "they don't want to play in Canada" card. It almost seems like he is planning his excuses ahead of time, for when he is shown the door. Maybe his inability to land anyone has less to do with playing in Canada, and more to do with the fact that this team finished in last place last season.

Looking at it now, it seems we probably could have signed Koskie AND signed Delgado. If Carlos is going to get 10-12 mil., surely he would have stayed with the Jays for 10 per year. That wouldn't have allowed us to upgrade anywhere else, but that doesn't look like it's going to happen anyway. Essentially, we will probably start next year with the same rotation, the same bullpen, + 1 Koskie, and + a new DH.

I'm getting more and more skeptical by the day that this team will be worse than last year.

I think that BA is basically full of it (based on the above comments; I haven't read the article). A year ago everyone loved the Jays system--especially McGowan, Rios, Banks, Hill, Quiroz, League, Peterson, etc. Each of the last three drafts has been rated quite highly by BA and other commentators (like John Sickels on ESPN, who called 2004 "a fine draft" for the Jays).

When the farm system was being hyped, I was a bit skeptical. A lot of the college picks seemed to have fairly limited ceilings, and the idea of drafting mostly college players to quickly "re-stock" the farm system seemed questionable. But I'm equally skeptical of BA's sudden about-face and D+ rating. If McGowan and Quiroz had been healthy for a full year, we could potentially have two first-rate rookies on the 2005 team (in addition to Adams and Bush, and potentially League). And how can they say that Purcey was overdrafted? It seems to me he was drafted about where everyone expected him to be drafted, and he pitched very well in his short stint at the end of the season.

On the other hand, I agree that it is going to be difficult to turn the team around. I'm sure that one reason Batista and other players decided to sign with the Jays was the team's relative success in 2003. Now the Jays seem to have lost that "up-and-comer" (and boy genius GM) tag, the consensus seems to be that they're floundering--which is going to make it that much harder to bring first-rate talent to Toronto.

Mike,

I'm starting to feel the same way about J.P. I think he'd better turn this off-season around pretty quickly, or he might be looking for a new job by this time next year. I'm as patient as the next guy, but come on,... how much can we as fans be expected to take. The BA report card offers even more discouragement as far as I'm concerned.

It seems that were becoming less and less like the Sox and Yanks, and more like Tbay, in terms of our ability to lure free agents here.

I don't like the fact that J.P. is playing the "they don't want to play in Canada" card. It almost seems like he is planning his excuses ahead of time, for when he is shown the door. Maybe his inability to land anyone has less to do with playing in Canada, and more to do with the fact that this team finished in last place last season.

Looking at it now, it seems we probably could have signed Koskie AND signed Delgado. If Carlos is going to get 10-12 mil., surely he would have stayed with the Jays for 10 per year. That wouldn't have allowed us to upgrade anywhere else, but that doesn't look like it's going to happen anyway. Essentially, we will probably start next year with the same rotation, the same bullpen, + 1 Koskie, and + a new DH.

I'm getting more and more skeptical by the day that this team will be any better than last year.

I'm getting more and more skeptical by the day that this team will be worse than last year.

...and yet you're still Pumped 4/05

Oops, sorry for the double post. Maybe a roster member can help me out and delete that first one for me.

Thanks,

Ryan

Christian,

I just thought of that as well. Maybe I'll change my handle to "Discouraged 4/05" :)

Dear Theo Epstein,

Please stop signing every single bloody free agent you can see. You are starting to remind us of George Steinbrenner, and that's not a good person to be emulating.

Signed,

Kevin

The other thing I was going to say is that I've heard an awful lot of excuses from JP over the last year. Guys injured, guys underperforming, limited budget, maybe we need to change our rebuilding strategy, no one wants to come to Toronto, I may not even be here when my contract is up, etc. Frankly, I'm sick of it. The measure of Ricciardi as a GM is the the performance of the MLB club and the organization as a whole. As the GM, he is responsible for rebuilding the team and the farm system. Other GMs have shown that this is possible on a limited budget. Not easy, but definitely possible.

Mike in CT - where is that report card? I am a subscriber but can't see it anywhere.

I found this from last year:
To that end, the Jays have the most balanced and deepest farm system in the division. No AL East team can match Toronto’s stable of power arms in the minor leagues, and no Jays prospects are as important as righthanders Dustin McGowan and Francisco Rosario, who have front-of-the-rotation stuff. Power righty Adam Peterson could bring his 97 mph fastball to the Toronto bullpen in 2004, and outfielders Alexis Rios and Gabe Gross aren’t far from contributing if not starring in Toronto.

The Blue Jays have championship-caliber talent, no matter how much the Red Sox and Yankees spend. Now all they need are a few championship-caliber breaks

I guess things have changed but I see Peterson doing well this year. If Rosario/ McGowan are healthy they will do alright. I don't think you can put too much stock in BA's analysis - they know their stuff but definitly see things differently from performance guys like JP.

Why not trade for talent? In a situation where you can take on payroll, you should be able to extract talent from teams looking to shed it.

I would target Brad Wilkerson - so what if he hits left. They've got Rios, Wells, Menechino and Hudson (and possibly Zaun) on the right side and there are few lefthanded starting pitchers in the AL East.

It concerned me somewhat that J.P. said (during the PT sports interview) that the team had Hillenbrand targeted for some time. I don't think Wilkerson will get much more than Hillenbrand (probably less) in arbitration and the former is the far superior player (and two years younger to boot).

Well just about everyone who posts here have seen their wish list of free agents and non-tenders signed by other teams. Roto-World speculated yesterday the Jays un-used budget might be left burning a hole in the teams pocket.

I'm no fan of Ted (The Grinch) Rogers ownership so far and am also becoming less enamoured with JP. Two season's ago I was flamed big time for even questioning JP's tactics for the re-buliding of this team. I took a step back and acknowlaged that perhaps their are wiser posters and roster members than I. I have been really patient. Kept my mouth shut all of last season. Looked on the bright side, even went out and got me some of them rose coloured glasses people keep talking about.

J.P. has now gotten rid of all of that contractual deadwood. This was said to be JP's time to shine.

Colour me as also one who is offended by the Canada excuse. That line is getting away to old. This team historically has not had great difficulty in attracting quality players to Toronto. Last I heard Immigration Canada was swamped by Americans trying to come north of the 49th.

It is JP's job to sell this team and for a variety of reasons everyone from fans to players are becoming less interested. The media always a gut wrenching topic here is also offside. I understand even Ted Give-Em-Coal Rogers station is considering a down grade from 120 games a season to 100. If that happens we here in the west are likely to see Sportsnet Pacific broadcast more Mariner games than Canada's team. But I guess thats not all bad, at least the Mariners look to be rebuilding from a last placed to to a contender.

In that case, Wilkerson is such a good defensive OF, it might be worth the teams while to keep Wilkerson in LF and move Cat to 1B.

I'm not sure about this Hillebrand talk; last year JP also said something about being interested in Rich Aurillia.

Yes, and my understanding was that they did pursue Aurilia, only to get outbid by Seattle, or perhaps Aurilia preferred Seattle (thank goodness!). Hillenbrand won't have a choice about where he goes if he's traded. Let's hope the Jays are similarly unable to get Hillenbrand.

Hillenbrand would be a very poor investment; Wilkerson, an excellent one. But if Washington was asking for Alex Rios in exchange for Nick Johnson, the price for Wilkerson would most likely be substantially higher. I'd be inclined to pay it, though, because he is one seriously talented player who'd complete a solid Jays outfield for years to come.

As for Wade Miller, give me a break: the guy signs with the defending World Series champions instead of a last-place team in the same division and this is Ricciardi's fault? News flash: this team lost 90+ games last year (thanks in large part to crippling injuries) and has one of the game's smallest payrolls -- it's about as attractive to most players as Pittsburgh or Milwaukee. Blame the GM if you like for this state of affairs, but I would love to know how his various critics would have proceeded differently over the last 12 months.

The only way this team will contend is with home-grown stars making the league minimum, supported by cost-effective players acquired through trade and free agency. The payroll is what it is, and it will increase when Ted Rogers feels it should increase, not before. Those are the two fundamental (if unpleasant) realities about being a Toronto Blue Jays fan in 2005. If you don't accept them, you're going to find this an incredibly frustrating team to root for, and I will not have much sympathy.

JP did not go there to make excuses. The Fan had been talking about Vince Carter, Tracy McGrady, etc. not wanting to play in Toronto, and so they led off asking JP about it. JP expressed surprise as he believes TO is a great place to play; Clement started it by asking about going through customs and taxes; JP felt we should be past that by now. He also said they had offered Kline more money but he chose Baltimore. Koskie had a higher offer from the Dodgers but went with the Jays so the conclusion was they needed more Canadian players.

JP's other point was that if the Jays were bidding for a player against the RedSox or Yankees he will lose as they can ratchet up the offer and the player can go play for a winner for more money. Not many players want to come here and fight the harder fight.

JP is now exploring a couple of trades for a right handed bat.

I'm a Baseball America subscriber too, and I just searched the site and can't find anything resembling the supposed comments referred to above.

Could it be that "Mike in CT" is having us on?

Josh Phelps signs a 1-year contract with the Devil Rays, according to Rotoworld.

He seemed to crush the ball at Tropicana, it could do him a world of good there.

Koskie had a higher offer from the Dodgers but went with the Jays so the conclusion was they needed more Canadian players.

With the amount of talent coming out of the area, I've long advocated that the Jays should try focusing in on B.C. players in the same way that Atlanta focuses on players from Georgia.

Like Robert and Jordan, I am hoping that Hillenbrand does not find his way into a Jay uniform.

As for Wilkerson, he's a fine hitter, but it is questionable whether he will be able to continue in the outfield due to his health. As a first base candidate, I like him quite a bit.

Does anyone else remember Moseby setting out for second base, arriving safely there but being conned by the second baseman into thinking that the centre-fielder had caught the ball just hit out there by the batter--so he frantically scurries back to first? Only to notice that the ball hadn't been caught and was still being chased by the fielder. So he heads for second again; makes it safely again; and tries to catch his breath after re-securing a hard-earned base.

As for J.P.'s 'success' or not--for God's sake, it's still December! Let's hang him out to dry if things haven't improved in a few months--whether what happens is his fault or not. That's the way it's done, isn't it?

I'm as die-hard a fan as anyone else here at the Box, but cheering for the Jays is getting to be exhausting. It's a long uphill battle and we seem to be slipping further behind each year. There's a real apathy from Toronto sports fans for the team, payroll is shrinking, we can't lure FAs, the team finished last, etc...

There is a lot of talk about the prospects (Adams, Hill, League, Rosario, McGowan, etc.) but we all know that prospects don't always pan out. Felipe Lopez was supposed to be the shorstop of the future, as were Kevin Cash, Josh Phelps, etc. touted as can't miss. Already we have seen major setbacks with Arnold, Ford-Griffin.

I can't help but fear we are heading down the same path as the 'Spos. Until MLB institutes a salary cap or full revenue sharing, there is very little hope in sight.

Sorry for the pessimism.

One thing that I totally dislike about the Blue Jays is there new name. On television broadcasts there referred to as the Jays. I have grown up with the Blue Jays since day one. I know what a Blue Jay is it's a bird. I don't know what a Jay other than a person's name.

Call the team Toronto Blue Jays! Put the maple leaf back into the uniform.

The American League 2005 by wealth

Rich Teams: Yankees,Red Sox,Anaheim
Medium Size: White Sox,Orioles,Mariners,Rangers,
Farm System Teams: Blue Jays, Twins, Athletics
Poor Teams: Devil Rays, Royals,Indians,Tigers

How would Blue Jays rank the team?

Josh Phelps signs a 1-year contract with the Devil Rays, according to Rotoworld.

He seemed to crush the ball at Tropicana, it could do him a world of good there.

Except that he won't be facing the TB pitchers.

Josh Phelps signs a 1-year contract with the Devil Rays, according to Rotoworld.
He seemed to crush the ball at Tropicana, it could do him a world of good there.
Except that he won't be facing the TB pitchers.

Touche :)

I still think he'll put up some pretty decent numbers there though.

What about trading Aaron Hill, Miguel Batista, and Reed Johnson for Roy Oswalt.

Hill is supposed to be a superb prospect while Batista helps relieve the loss of Oswalt and Johsnon is a valuable utility man. Since Oswalt is arbitration eligible it also saves money which can be thrown towards say....Carlos Beltran?

When does JP's contract run out?

Tony Clark is cheap and a power switch hitter....not bad for a team in need of a 1B

Anyone like the idea of bringing in

a) Mike Myers and b) So Taguchi

Sorry for the pessimism.

heh, it gets like that sometimes.. for some reason it struck me the other day when reading a discussion on who we should pursue. Some of the names being bandied about as realistic options that would help the club, I just took a step back and said wow how can we even dream of competing with the Sox or the Yanks? On the other hand, as cliche as it is, it will make it all the more satisfying once we get back to being contenders. It's no fun without the challenge, to be able to overcome handicaps would just make it all the more sweeter, although a little bit of luck or help along the way wouldn't hurt that's for sure.

Axil, this is where "bargain hunting" and "scrap heap picking" get taken to far.

No offense, but who cares if Tony Clark is cheap? He's terrible, he's been terrible for the past 3 seasons, and as he gets older I see no reason for him to suddenly improve.

Cheap or not, if Tony Clark is the 1st basemen for the Jays next season... the Jays are in definite trouble.

Did JP at any point last off-season mention FA's were scared away because Toronto is located in Canada?

I've been through this song and dance before with the Vancouver Grizzlies for 6 years and I'm amazed at what the NBA players said about Canada. I was hoping MLB players were more educated.

I'll never forgot the time I heard Stephon Marbury said he thought Vancouver was near Russia before the draft. Why would anybody no matter what kind of education they have (or lack thereof) believe the NBA would have a team in it's league that was located near Russia? Wouldn't common sense tell you there would be schedule/travel problems?

Anyone like the idea of bringing in

a) Mike Myers and b) So Taguchi

Too late, Both signed today.

I am getting annoyed at Scott Carson. He took a cheap shot at John Kerry in a column a week ago, and now he continues his grudge against Pedro Martinez in his newest one. He fails to point out that there hasn't been a better pitcher in baseball the last 6 years than Pedro. Instead of putting that, he bashes Pedro's hairstyle? and the way he chums around with the other players on the team. I know Scott is a meat and potatoes, conservative type guy when he's evaluating the league (in which he does a superb job most of the time) but he needs to leave out the political shots in his work, and his obvious grudges against some players (Pedro, Ramirez, to name a few, he took a shot at Pedro calling him not even the best pitcher on his staff.) Scott, just because Curt Schilling is a born again Christian (nothing wrong with that though) doesn't mean he's any better of a person than Pedro. I'm sure Pedro has good qualities too, just FOX loves the flag wavers and Bush supporters like Schilling. (like during the playoffs, depicting Schilling as an American hero.) Sorry if I offended Scott or any conservative minds in here, and Scottie I love you and your're work, I just think you're grudges and way of thinking are affecting a bit of your otherwise outstanding work!

I'm a Baseball America subscriber too, and I just searched the site and can't find anything resembling the supposed comments referred to above.

Could it be that "Mike in CT" is having us on?

No, I'm not "having you on", it's in the current PRINT edition that was just released.

Though I agree with much or even most of Jordan's post above there are a couple points I would like to address.

I don't believe it will be the teams fans looking for sympathy - if nothing changes soon - but the team itself. The PR department looks to be working pretty hard in 2005.

As well, a serious team in addition to developing talent, making trades etc must also use the other tool competitive teams use. The F.A. market. This team will not survive if all it is doing is developing players for other teams. This may work for the hockey mad city of Edmonton; but baseball in TO. Hmmm.

This leads me to my last point. It is not enough for a city to be satisfied that it has a major league team. It must field a team that is major league competitive. If Mr. Rogers is satisfied simply by his ownership and consolidation of the infastructure then there is absolutley no reason why the fan needs to feel obliged to his tight stewardship.

Rotoworld:

Sources have confirmed to the AP and the Contra Costa Times that the Giants and Moises Alou have agreed to a two-year deal.
The AP reports that deal is worth $13.25 million and contains $500,000 in incentives. The second year is a player option. It's possible that the deal won't be finalized until next week.

Cross Alou off the list. Good thing too, $13.25M is too much for a player of his age.

The whole 'Toronto is a small market' bit has really got old imo.

The GTA has a population around 4 million, with a tv market across Canada of around 30 million. No other team has a tv market like that available. I read somewhere that the viewership the Jays get per game (100-200k) is far ahead of the majority of teams in baseball, and actually ranks in the top 5. Given this how on earth can the Jays be a smaller market than Baltimore, Seattle, or Arlington? Answer... they aren't.

The dollar argument is weak as the dollar is now near the highest it has been since the Jays first moved out of last in '82 (over 80 cents...peak was 89 cents in '91 then fell back to 79 cents by the end of '92 and just now is back to the 80's). Check the average ticket price (adjusted for currency level) and you'll find the Jays average price in 2005 will be league average or higher.

Outside of the two NY teams and ones with fanatical fan bases (Boston, Cubs) or long time and widely based fan bases (Atlanta, LA) there is no reason I can see for the Jays to be unable to afford a payroll equal to the 23 other teams. Seattle has the Japanese advantage, but that is tempered by the fact international (ie: non-US/Canada) revenue is shared by all teams thus preventing the Mariners from getting any advantage. A couple of others have recent success filling seats (Anaheim for example) but that is always a temporary situation.

Sigh. Guess I just get sick of hearing arguments repeated so often that people repeat them as gospel.

Cross Alou off the list. Good thing too, $13.25M is too much for a player of his age.

Heck yeah. Thats more than a million more than they offered Carlos. Can you imagine the field day the press would have had if Rotoworld reported the Blue Jays had landed Alou at that price.

John, I agree with many of your points, but where do you get that the Jays have higher than average ticket prices?

A quick search on google led me to this, and from there, it doesn't look like the Jays are above average. (They're not significantly below average either).

there is no reason I can see for the Jays to be unable to afford a payroll equal to the 23 other teams.

They were 24th in attendance last season. They were 21st in payroll. If people don't go out to the park, it may as well be a small market.

Attendance and payroll are linked, of course, but attendance and market are not, or at least not seriously. Any city in the majors could fill SkyDome for a baseball season, and Toronto did fill it, back in the day.

John Northey is right -- although Toronto's upside as a market can't compare with those of the seven or so mega-franchises he identified, it can damn well compare, and compare favourably, to any of the others. The Blue Jays franchise has simply not done a good enough job of maximizing its market. Winning and a more positive media buzz would be a nice start.

(Of course, more payroll for '06 might be just the ticket to kick-start both of the above.)

a more positive media buzz would be a nice start.

I would love to see some more positive media on the Jays. I dont know whether it's just Toronto or if it happens everywhere, but negative media seems to have become incredibly trendy. And not just for baseball, it happens to the Leafs and Raptors to. Is part of it because Rogers is a media corporation? Their employees dont want to look like cheerleaders and apologists while the competition is trying to bring them down a peg? I dont know but I know I dont like it.

I honestly believe it plays a part in falling attendance as well. Obviously it's not the main factor, winning is. But for people who are casual fans and on the fence about going to see games, a positive or negative spin on the team in the newspaper or on the radio can make the difference. When all you hear is statements like "JP could have had Eric Gagne" and "Moneyball is Idiotball", if you're on the fence it doesnt exactly inspire you to go out and buy a ticket.

People come out to see a winning product. The onus is on the Jays organisation to build a quality product - then more fans will come out. It's foolishly naive to exhort the fans to come out FIRST, so that Rogers can then raise the payroll and improve the team.

The ball is in Rogers' court.

The ball is in Rogers' court.

Exactly. And if you look at the payroll link a few posts above you will find that teams in that range were very competitive. In fact St. Louis was in the $75 mark and made it to the world series.

No one here is who is being critical of the teams management and owners are demanding a world series, unlike leaf fans, but a team that is in with a shout.

Does Rogers realize that in this division, the Jays have basically NO SHOT at catching up to the Red Sox and the Yanks if he doesn't open up his wallet?

Sure it might be cute to try and build the "the little engine that could" in the AL Central or possibly even the AL West, but in the AL East it's going to take some actual money to build this team into a winner. Trust me, if the Jays can start ponying up some big time bucks, players won't be so hesitant in coming to Toronto.

I'll never forgot the time I heard Stephon Marbury said he thought Vancouver was near Russia before the draft. Why would anybody no matter what kind of education they have (or lack thereof) believe the NBA would have a team in it's league that was located near Russia? Wouldn't common sense tell you there would be schedule/travel problems?

I think you overestimate the average person. I think anyone given relatively equal circumstances would rather work as geographically close to their comfort zone as possible. Vancouver might not be near Russia but maybe from their perspective it might as well be.

The thing is other than different money and weather and the pain of customs during travel it probably wouldn't be any different for a player changing American teams than it would be moving to a Canadian team.

Still, since the new regime took over the best free agent they've been able to attract is probably Catalanatto pending Batista's performance the next couple of years. Frank's a fine player but if the Jays want a really good player they will have to overspend significantly at this point and if they want to sell themselves as an up and coming team they have to show that on the field. And yes through ownership as well. Though I get the sense that Rogers has been a little more generous with the team than some suspect if their bottom lines are even close to true.

ok good question

funniest thing i have seen at a game by far happened in a high school game of mine where my father was the umpire. i played 2nd. anyways my buddy Gentry was pitching and during his warm up pitches on the mound he turned and was talking to me...while he was doing that my dad (the ump bend over the plate to brush it off with his butt facing the mound, Gentry started his windup while looking at me just for kicks turned and threw before he saw an umpire bent right over the plate. The ball caught him on the tip of the sack and he went down.....it was hilarious...just thought i would throw that in there

Okay, look, the obvious solution to this "not wanting to play in Canada" problem is to declare Ontario to be the 51st state of the union. Yes?

What, no enthusiasm for that, here? Okay, what about moving the franchise to Las Vegas? Really, Rogers ought to sell the team to a businessman who knows how to look after a baseball team, like that guy J. Loria.

Whaddya think guys?

I think that I'm looking forward to August when my wife and I head far east to move to TO. I've seen the Jays in Safeco a number of times, but never at the Dome and I don't care if there are 14000 or 40000 there.

People come out to see a winning product. The onus is on the Jays organisation to build a quality product - then more fans will come out. It's foolishly naive to exhort the fans to come out FIRST, so that Rogers can then raise the payroll and improve the team.

The ball is in Rogers' court.

I did suggest that if attendance improved, the payroll could be increased. I did not suggest that improving the team should come after those events. I would love the payroll to be increased as much as anyone, but Rogers did shell out $77 million

People come out to see a winning product. The onus is on the Jays organisation to build a quality product - then more fans will come out. It's foolishly naive to exhort the fans to come out FIRST, so that Rogers can then raise the payroll and improve the team.

The ball is in Rogers' court.

I did suggest that if attendance improved, the payroll could be increased. I did not suggest that improving the team should come after those events. I would love the payroll to be increased as much as anyone, but Rogers did shell out $77 million

It seems to be becoming trendy to bash JP. I hope this slow burn doesn't turn into a fire, because I think he's doing a solid job and I'd like to see what he can do with another 2-3 years so that the minor league system will fully be in a position to impact the big club as he envisions.

To me, there are really two ways to judge the success of a GM. Most people take option 1, which is to look at how well the team does. But we should also consider another way, which is to look also at the quality of the moves at the time they were made. Sure, the Hinske signing looks poor today, but at the time I thought it was a solid, forward-thinking move. I really liked the Arnold deal when it went down, but who knew that Arnold would stink it up at AAA? Batista looked like a great signing last offseason. Now? Maybe not. Sometimes the smartest moves can fizzle, but over time, I think JP's approach is the right approach.

A top poker player playing with a bunch of local drunkards can lose a lot in any given hour or on any given day. But give that poker player enough time and he'll take them all to the cleaners. I just think JP needs more time, and he hasn't done anything yet to make me question whether he deserves it.

You've got to be kidding me. Not enough time? He's had 3 years to turn the boat around! When he first took the helm 3 years ago, he said we would "contend" by 2005 and he welcomed the challenge of winning with a small payroll. Now it is near the end of 2004. Our minor leagues are now in the middle of the pack instead of the top 10 and JP has become an excuse machine with "small payroll, injuries, Carlos Tosca, and now the lame nobody likes Canada". What a joke.

People come out to see a winning product. The onus is on the Jays organisation to build a quality product - then more fans will come out. It's foolishly naive to exhort the fans to come out FIRST, so that Rogers can then raise the payroll and improve the team.

The ball is in Rogers' court.

I did suggest that if attendance improved, the payroll could be increased. I did not suggest that improving the team should come after those events. I would love the payroll to be increased as much as anyone, but Rogers did shell out $77 million in 2001 and 2002, the results weren't there and attendance dropped. The payroll has since dropped, but a different approach is now being taken to improve the team and as it occurs, the crowds should improve. Then (or if they manage to get close to contention) a leap in payroll can occur. I'm certainly not suggesting that ownership should expect the fans to make the first move, simply that it isn't being terribly unreasonable in its payroll given current attendance and it has taken steps (in bringing in the current administration with its non-conformist approach and eventually buying the dome) to build a competitive team.

I really don't begrudge Rogers for the payroll as it stands; if attendance is an indicator of revenue, I don't think we're terribly unfortunate, even if we're not particularly blessed with ownership.

Which is worse, double posting or an incomplete post? Just to make sure I offend all, I'll do both...

The worst is a follow-up post explaining your blunders. :P

Back to the "strangest thing" question, I remember El Duque pitching in Ottawa in 1998 -- the hype machine was in full gear, and word had it that a callup to the Yanks was imminent. So, despite really ugly weather I went to what I believe ended up being his last AAA start before the callup.

Anyways, his arm angles and the movement on his pitches just seemed to have the Lynx hitters baffled... most of them couldn't come close to touching his big curveball. Most confused, though? Left-handed hitting first baseman Rob Lukachyk. His first time up, Hernandez threw a slow breaking ball, and Lukachyk stood completely frozen as the ball broke sharply in on him and hit him on the leg. Second time up? Same thing. I don't think he was trying to get hit... it seemed he just didn't think the ball was going to break that much!

Well, El Duque was not impressed. When Lukachyk came up the third time, Hernandez drilled him with a hard fastball right in the shoulder, then started walking to towards the plate, yelling angrily in Spanish. Lukachyk just seemed confused by the whole incident and calmly walked to first, as the umpires kept cool.

Toronto is nota small market. But, sad to say, it is a market with a small interest in the sport of baseball, Bauxites notwithstanding.

Kieran, I think you overestimate the interest of most markets. Markets we'd consider "good" or "great" have gone through worse slumps.

Paul D, thanks for the link to http://www.teammarketing.com/fci.cfm?page=fci_mlb2004.cfm as I was going 100% from memory. Of note: the chart is probably from the start of the 2004 season (April).

Via http://www.bankofcanada.ca/en/can_us_close.htm
I found that in April our dollar was worth $0.7288 and today it is worth $0.8055. This shifts the Jays ticket price from an average of $17.87 to $19.75 which is barely below league average ($19.82). The 'fan cost index' shifts from $145.37 to $160.68 which puts the Jays 10th in the majors (top 1/3rd). The dollar now vs April has grown by just over 10% yet the Jays payroll is stuck in the low $50 million range. The Jays increased their potential revenue drastically by buying the SkyDome for a bargin basement price, yet the payroll is still where it was a year ago. To accept that Rogers is 'doing their best' to make the Jays a winner is, imo, either buying that all baseball teams are losing money or that the Jays have a black hole somewhere that eats the money coming in. It would be very, very hard to make be believe that the Jays have a lower potential revenue stream than $60+ million payroll teams in Colorado, Arizona, Seattle, St. Louis, San Francisco, Houston, and the White Sox (poor cousins in a big market that is about the size of Toronto's iirc).

Now, given all that, if the Jays feel they should play the youngsters now then add next year if the team is at a level where playoffs could be reached with one or two key high level additions and they go for it I'd be happy. But if JP is begging Rogers for more cash and they are saying 'no, we're too small' then I'd be very annoyed.

I did find an interesting site at http://users.pullman.com/rodfort/PHSportsEcon/Common/OtherData/MLBIncomeExpense/MLBIncomeExpense.html which has a spreadsheet with team revenues by year through 2003.

Using the 2001 report Selig sent out (for ratio vs other teams it is as good as anything else, but will underestimate revenue and increase expenses vs reality I'm sure) the Jays had local TV, radio and cable fees of $14.5 million US when our dollar was worth $0.635 US (ugh) which is equivalent to $18.4 million US today which would move them to 14th in baseball from 18th then. Misc local revenue was $14.3 million (22nd) then, $18.1 now (same rank). Putting all local revenue (including gate) together we'd get $54 million then (24th) or $68.6 now (20th). Since the Expos got $67 million last year in 'other' revenue I think it is safe to say that was shared and all teams get a similar amount, thus giving the Jays about $125 million a year in revenue if they haven't done anything to increase it since 2001. National Revenue is listed as $24.4 million in Selig's report plus another $9.8 million for revenue sharing which would put the Jays today at $102.8 million in revenue. National (ie: Selig slush fund) and other expenses (ie: minor leagues and office costs including Ash's salary in 2001) was $47 million. That means that today the Jays should have (if their misc costs haven't climbed and their revenue doesn't climb via Rogers owning the Skydome and tv network) between $56 and $78 million left over for payroll and profits. That is using Selig figures for everything at the bottom end and mainly Selig numbers for the top end. So why are the Jays at the bottom end of that estimate, even after reducing their office staff and other costs under JP (according to the media)? Hrm.

What is 'drop me a line'?

He means send him an e-mail, as most likely he has something he wishes to discuss with you in private as opposed to on the board.