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Carlos Delgado is the best Blue Jay ever. Craig said it on the game thread, and if anyone else had any doubts, they should be long gone, like the slugger's fourth home run last night.

The picture is from MLB.com, where Spencer Fordin put the accomplishment in perspective.

Carlos Delgado stamped his name on the game Thursday night, showing off his prodigious power in a historic night at SkyDome.

Carlos Tosca agreed.

"The fans are going to leave tonight having seen a tremendous feat that's only been done a handful of times in the history of the game. It's certainly the most amazing exhibition I've ever seen on a baseball field."

No argument from J.P. Ricciardi.

"Today I was a fan. I just watched like everybody else," he said. "We watched history -- it's amazing. Anybody, whether they're a general manager or a coach or whatever, puts their fan hat on at that point. You're just in awe, watching a performance that you know you'll probably never see again."



Also from Fordin on the Official Site, the second best Internet source for Jays fans:

It truly was an amazing night, and Delgado set a number of statistical standards. He finished with six RBIs, a career-high total, which gave him 141 for the season. That also set a new career high, as well as a new single-season record for Toronto. The first baseman set the previous mark -- 137 in 2000 -- and also owns the team's career records in homers (303), RBIs (955) and runs scored (814).

This is going to be one of those times when the (possibly) 13,000 and change in the seats will eventually "grow" with people claiming to be witnesses, until it seems like a packed house. Those of us who watched on TV were mesmerized. Other scribes in attendance were similarly impressed.

Mike Ganter (Toronto Sun): No one player has put himself in the driver's seat ... until perhaps last night.

Carlos Delgado, already a strong candidate for the award, gave MVP voters something else to consider with a game for the ages.


John Lott (National Post): The MVP award usually goes to a player on a playoff team. The U.S. baseball writers who vote tend not to cast their gaze north of the border unless a player's performance is head and shoulders above the rest.

But Delgado's exploits last night served as a timely reminder that he merits serious consideration for the award.


Larry Millson (Globe and Mail): And each home run had significance in a tight game as the Blue Jays won for the 84th time this season. The first one put the Blue Jays into the lead. The next three led off the fourth, sixth and eighth innings respectively with the third and fourth ones each tying the game.

The home runs came on a fastball from Jorge Sosa, a changeup from Sosa, a hanging slider from left-hander Joe Kennedy, who has been tough on Delgado, and a changeup from Devil Rays closer Lance Carter.


Dave Perkins (Toronto Star): Three of the four balls that left the park were returned to his possession and Delgado said No.300 goes into a frame for his trophy room as a great memory.

Which was something he gave us all.





The Greatest | 42 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
Craig B - Friday, September 26 2003 @ 11:02 AM EDT (#89510) #
We're not worthy.
robertdudek - Friday, September 26 2003 @ 11:05 AM EDT (#89511) #
I really really hope that Delgado and the Jays can agree on some kind of "lifetime" contract along the lines of what George Brett got. I'm confident that he'll be worth that money as an ambassador for the Blue Jays. With the Jays likely to generate more and more revenue (as they become more and more competitive), I don't see a problem with a backloaded contract that extends well into Delgado's eventual retirement (say, 7 years hence).

This is one of those cases, like Gwynn in San Diego, Brett in KC and Ripken in Baltimore, where it would be just plain wrong if the player did not play his whole career for one team.
Coach - Friday, September 26 2003 @ 11:17 AM EDT (#89512) #
Lou Piniella called it "a Herculean effort."

Tom Jones (St. Petersburg Times): The ball cracked off his bat, producing a startling noise. Toronto slugger Carlos Delgado posed for a moment knowing he was about to step into history. He flipped his bat and raised his fist as the ball zoomed through the air, not stopping until it crashed into the windows of the restaurant that overlooks centerfield, some 450 feet from home plate.

Then, as if in slow motion, it bounced high as the crowd roared. The only things missing were exploding lights and the music to The Natural.


ESPN.com (Associated Press): The distance (in feet) of Carlos Delgado's four homers Thursday night:

First inning: 435 (off the SkyDome Windows restaurant)
Fourth inning: 380
Sixth inning: 386
Eighth inning: 445


"I was pretty fired up. I'm not going to lie to you," Delgado said. "As you can tell with the bat flip. I didn't know what I was doing. I was on Cloud Nine out there and enjoying it."
Coach - Friday, September 26 2003 @ 11:27 AM EDT (#89513) #
More from Spencer Fordin, who obviously enjoyed this more than writing about the motley crew of umpires:

The champagne was on ice before the changeup left the playing surface. Carlos Delgado swung his way into the history books on Thursday night by slamming four homers in as many at-bats, and his teammates celebrated by bathing him in bubbly once he entered the clubhouse.

There's also a link to the video clips at the top of this story.
Dave Till - Friday, September 26 2003 @ 11:50 AM EDT (#89514) #
Right now, Delgado's total of 141 RBI leads the league by 24. According to baseball-reference.com, the last American League hitter to lead the league in RBI by that much was Al Rosen in 1953, who was 30 ahead of the competition.

Here are the largest margins in the last 50 years in the AL:

+30 Rosen, 1953*
+21 Mattingly, 1985*
+20 Killebrew, 1971
+19 Killebrew, 1969* (you go, Killer)
+18 Rice, 1978*
+17 Ramirez, 1999
+17 Stuart, 1963

* indicates won the AL MVP that year.

By the way, George Bell led the league in RBI by 11 in 1987.
Named For Hank - Friday, September 26 2003 @ 12:09 PM EDT (#89515) #
http://bluejayscheerclub.com
I really really hope that Delgado and the Jays can agree on some kind of "lifetime" contract along the lines of what George Brett got. I'm confident that he'll be worth that money as an ambassador for the Blue Jays.

I totally, wholeheartedly agree.

Did you guys see the stat on Sportsnet last night? The estimated distances for the four homers combined to be within two hundred feet of the height of the CN Tower.
Dave Till - Friday, September 26 2003 @ 12:14 PM EDT (#89516) #
I'll pile on and say that, at this point, the Jays should consider re-signing Delgado. I really really don't want to see this guy wearing somebody else's uniform.
Mike Green - Friday, September 26 2003 @ 12:27 PM EDT (#89517) #
All of this clamour to re-sign Carlos reminds us that even baseball fans who are fascinated by the numerical side of the game do not possess the soul of a wolfhound.

Perhaps the Jays' marketing department will oblige us our sentimentality by opening next year with a campaign featuring Delgado and Halladay rather than one promoting Eric Hinske and Chris Woodward or one urging us to boo Matsui.
_Nigel - Friday, September 26 2003 @ 01:22 PM EDT (#89518) #
Sorry, I'm going to have the heart of a wolfhound and, even though Carlos is my favourite Jay of this generation and it would hurt like hell to have him wear another uniform, I think it is in the teams best interest from a performance perspective (maybe not from a marketing perspective) to spend his salary dollars on pitching. I do not have the technical capabilities to link my other comments, but essentially it boils down to a cost benefit analysis of his production relative to a replacement first baseman and what the saved salary could buy on the pitching side. It sucks to say that on a day like today, but I do not think you can change the long term thinking based on one unbelievably fantastic day.
Named For Hank - Friday, September 26 2003 @ 01:39 PM EDT (#89519) #
but I do not think you can change the long term thinking based on one unbelievably fantastic day.

I don't know if you missed the rest of the season, but he's having a career year, not just one good day.

What should my Delgado sign say tonight? :)
robertdudek - Friday, September 26 2003 @ 01:42 PM EDT (#89520) #
Carlos is one of the top 4 hitters in the AL, possibly the best hitter in the league right now. He has had a very good defensive season. I think if you add it up - he's one of the 10 most valuable properties in the American League given his age. People think that you can just come up with a first baseman who can field and hit well out of nowhere, but that just isn't the case (ask Oakland). Lots of teams have 1Bs who can't hit better than the average 3B.

Of course, it's very likely his production will decline so by the time he finishes his career, his performance will no longer justify his salary. Conversely, he might be worth more than he will make in 2005/2006.

I think Carlos is a good bet to continue to hit like a monster for another 4 or 5 years. Why do I say that? The main reason is I think he has some holes in his swing. He's a hard worker, and I'd bet that he's going to continue to work on those little flaws. I think there is every chance that at age 37 Carlos will still be one of the top hitters in the league. He's scary good.

It all depends on how the contract is structured, what the sums are, and how much of a boost having Delgado on the team has on revenue. We aren't really in a position to know anything about such things, so we should be careful before we conclude that it's not in the Jays best financial interest to retain Delgado.

I think this team should be focusing on 2005 and 2006 and trying to make sure those teams are in a position to win 95-100 games. It's very very likely that Carlos is going to be very valuable to someone in those years.
robertdudek - Friday, September 26 2003 @ 01:44 PM EDT (#89521) #
Named for Hank ...

How about: "Greatest Jay Ever"
_Nigel - Friday, September 26 2003 @ 01:57 PM EDT (#89522) #
I knew I'd get whacked for my comment. Fair enough. I know he's having a great year, I have been watching. I also know you can't come up with Delgado level production just anywhere. But that was my point in the other thread. Even with the great year he's having, Delgado's producing maybe 45 runs above the internal options (Phelps, F-Cat) and I'm being charitable to Delgado here. I still say, because of the Jay's needs, you could spend the salary differential on pitching and gain more than you lose. None of my points are meant to lessen how great Delgado is.
Named For Hank - Friday, September 26 2003 @ 02:05 PM EDT (#89523) #
Nigel, I know, I was just kinda...being a punk, I guess. You make sense, but talk like that hurts my heart.

Robert: I think that's what it'll say.
_George Tsuji - Friday, September 26 2003 @ 02:06 PM EDT (#89524) #
I really really hope that Delgado and the Jays can agree on some kind of "lifetime" contract along the lines of what George Brett got

I hope so. A lot of my fan "objectivity" goes out the window when it comes to Carlos. I still remember the first time I saw Carlos... it was a spring training feature, probably in '92, on "Picture day". A few of the minor leaguers had had their pictures taken for their baseball cards... this was Carlos' first. He seemed so extraordinarily happy about the whole thing, it's a memory that's stuck with me 'till this day.

Fast forward to Opening Day '94, this converted Catcher playing LF for the two-time defending champs, batting right behind WAMCO... making a diving catch in the OF and Homering in his first ML start.

Anyone else remember Chris Berman having a "Bermanism contest" for Delgado that April? I seem to remember the winner being Carlos Delgado "Mighty".

I'd personally really love to see Carlos finish his career as a Blue Jay. He's always seemed happy to be in Toronto, despite everything he went through from the many position changes to the stripping away of his captaincy. Greatest Blue Jay ever? Yup.
Named For Hank - Friday, September 26 2003 @ 02:10 PM EDT (#89525) #
He seemed so extraordinarily happy about the whole thing, it's a memory that's stuck with me 'till this day.

That pretty much sums up why I love him: he plays great, and he has a great time while he's doing it.

What happened to strip him of his captaincy? I missed that.
_Ken - Friday, September 26 2003 @ 02:11 PM EDT (#89526) #
Nigel: I agree with your point, the jays are in need of pitching more than hitting, the farm has some potential good major league hitters aswell and i don't think the jays would 'need' Delgado to win the World Series. They will 'need' pitching, but how unbearable would it be to see him leave?

what about- Delgado '4' MVP
_Nigel - Friday, September 26 2003 @ 02:12 PM EDT (#89527) #
Name For Hank, I hear you, thinking about losing Delgado makes me literally feel kind of sick. But then I think about winning pennants and playing in the playoffs and I feel better. This comes down to budget. You would never in a million years think about letting him go if you weren't constrained by a $50 millionish budget.
_Ryan - Friday, September 26 2003 @ 02:22 PM EDT (#89528) #
What happened to strip him of his captaincy?

As I recall, it wasn't due to his abilities as a leader. Jim Fregosi just didn't believe in naming captains (Delgado had been named by Tim Johnson).
robertdudek - Friday, September 26 2003 @ 02:27 PM EDT (#89529) #
"Delgado's producing maybe 45 runs above the internal options (Phelps, F-Cat) and I'm being charitable to Delgado here."

Have you seen those guys play first base? Seriously though, Cat is far from replacement level and he cost a fair bit of coinage. A year ago, Phelps was the best hitting prospect in the minor leagues - so I don't think that's something you can just decide to produce.

Let's see how it might work. Hinske moves to first, Josh stays at DH. We need a 3B and SS. Let's say Delgado is worth 40 runs more than Hinske. If we move Woodward over to 3rd you've get better defence and less offense - net, probably -10 runs. You need a shortstop. Internal: Adams/Hill (Hill won't be ready for another 2.5 years) -10 runs; external: stop gap for 2 million that's worth about as much as Woodward/Bordick this year.

So you've spent 2 million for a shortstop and lost 50 runs. Or you can spend the minimum and be down 60 runs. Let's say you can backload Delgado and he'll earn 10 million on average 2005-2007. The external option nets you 8 million but costs you 50 runs. According to Tangotigre, a marginal win is worth about 2 million dollars at current market conditions (I think). 50 runs is 5 wins, which in theory should cost 10 million dollars (more than the 8 million saved). 60 runs is 6 wins = 12 million (more than the roughly 10 million saved).

These are rough calculations, rely on many assumptions, and can be affected by lots of factors, but I think it indicates that Delgado's production is worth quite a bit of coin. Then there's the revenue side of the equation ...
_George Tsuji - Friday, September 26 2003 @ 02:30 PM EDT (#89530) #
What happened to strip him of his captaincy?

As I recall, it wasn't due to his abilities as a leader. Jim Fregosi just didn't believe in naming captains (Delgado had been named by Tim Johnson).


I certainly could be wrong, but I recall Fregosi making a point of suggesting Delgado wasn't showing enough leadership to warrant the Captaincy.

I remember it being regarded as some kind of "insult" at the time. Since hardly any teams have Captains anyways (I do like seeing Mike Sweeney actually wearing a "C" though, even if the Royals' logo prevents him from wearing it on the "right" side of his chest), "losing" the Captaincy wouldn't have been an issue if comments weren't made about Carlos' suitability for the title.

(It's likely something that, even if I am remembering correctly, was blown out of proportion by the media anyways)
Craig B - Friday, September 26 2003 @ 02:35 PM EDT (#89531) #
Carlos Delgado is much more likely to give you more production over the next four years than any pitcher in the game.

That's all I will say. Yes, pitching is important. But no pitcher is as likely to give you top-class production, year in and year out, as a perennial MVP candidate like Delgado.

That, and the dugout closeups last night after home run #2, with him beaming and laughing... I really do want the team to re-sign him. If they can ink him for Jim Thome money (6 years, $85 million), I sincerely hope they are all over it.
Named For Hank - Friday, September 26 2003 @ 02:36 PM EDT (#89532) #
Then there's the revenue side of the equation ...

I imagine we'll see a real bump in attendance tonight. If we don't, there's something wrong with the people of Toronto.
robertdudek - Friday, September 26 2003 @ 02:37 PM EDT (#89533) #
My personal opinion is, if the Jays hope to contend without Delgado in 2005 and 2006, they had better:

1) Come up with another hitter with a .400+ OBP or 2) develop/acquire their own version of Hudson/Mulder/Zito

A guy with such a high OBP is extremely important to a good offence. Such a player creates opportunities for the rest of the team by not making outs.

We've got 3 superstar players right now. If we get one or two more this team is going to be dynamite. If we subtract Carlos, we're going to have to get 2 or 3 from somewhere. That's awfully tough to do.
_Cristian - Friday, September 26 2003 @ 03:37 PM EDT (#89534) #
Let's not forget that any payroll limitations the Jays face are purely self-imposed. If they want to keep Delgado and sign top-tier pitching, there is no law that states they can't.
_Mick - Friday, September 26 2003 @ 05:48 PM EDT (#89535) #
Question ...
Have the MVP and the Cy Young Award winners ever come from the same non-playoff team?
Mike D - Friday, September 26 2003 @ 06:17 PM EDT (#89536) #
Hear, hear, Cristian. And there *should* be a law mandating that J.P. gets the same amount of payroll as Gord Ash got, just to see what he can do with it.
Coach - Friday, September 26 2003 @ 08:53 PM EDT (#89537) #
Let's not forget that any payroll limitations the Jays face are purely self-imposed.

Agreed, but the decisions are made according to revenues. It's a very expensive gamble to spend freely on talent with no guarantee that it will boost attendance. If the Jays can't afford to compete with the big boys, that's not Ted's fault. Blame your friends and neighbours who stay home, especially the ones who would pay anything to the scalpers ten years ago.

This "Oakland East" plan of building a contender on the cheap could begin to pay off at the turnstiles next year. The TV ratings are up substantially over 2002, which is another encouraging sign. If this is an exciting, 90-win club next season, and more people pay to watch it, but Rogers continues to cry poor, I will lead the chorus of boos. Until then, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt.
Named For Hank - Friday, September 26 2003 @ 11:17 PM EDT (#89538) #
I imagine we'll see a real bump in attendance tonight. If we don't, there's something wrong with the people of Toronto.

Something's wrong with the people of Toronto: just over 13,000 in the stands tonight, same as last night. One of the worst attended games of the season.
_Jurgen - Saturday, September 27 2003 @ 01:32 AM EDT (#89539) #
Greatest Jay Ever... but still not the greatest to ever wear a Jay uniform.

I still think inking Halladay should be the priority, but even that gives me pause if the club is unable/unwilling to acquire another solid starter or two. If the plan is to wait for Arnold, Bush, McGowan, League, etc. then maybe signing Halladay isn't a good idea either.
Thomas - Saturday, September 27 2003 @ 02:01 AM EDT (#89540) #
Tomorrow and Sunday's game will be real attedance tests. Today was dissapointing, but I expect 25-30,000 for each of the weekend games. I think I may be a bit optimistic though, even though Doc's going for 22 and the last game of the season always draws a nice crowd.
Gitz - Saturday, September 27 2003 @ 02:20 AM EDT (#89541) #
I don't need to remind everyone this, but if Toronto is really going to be "Oakland East," then enjoy Delgado all you can next year, because the Jays won't re-sign him after the 2004 season.

Jurgen, out of curiousity, who do you think is the greatest to ever wear a Jay? Molitor? Winfield? Tim Johnson?
Gitz - Saturday, September 27 2003 @ 02:24 AM EDT (#89542) #
Oh, yeah: on a night when the A's could have clinched (and did), there were only 23,000 people there. The A's have a dynamite group of hard-core fans, but unfortunately their numbers are thin. I'm here in town this week ("in town" being the SF Bay Area), and I'll have no trouble acquiring playoff tickets. Not that I want to see Pedro throw a two-hit shutout!
_George Tsuji - Saturday, September 27 2003 @ 09:40 AM EDT (#89543) #
Greatest Jay Ever... but still not the greatest to ever wear a Jay uniform

Sure, it'd take an amazingly good player to take away that mantle from Rickey Henderson.
robertdudek - Saturday, September 27 2003 @ 10:02 AM EDT (#89544) #
It takes time to rebuild the fanbase. This year we're going to draw about 150,000 more than last year, which is an encouraging sign.

A couple of differences between Oakland and Toronto:

1) Toronto's budget, about 50 million for the next few years, is still more than Oakland had when they let Giambi go.

2) Blue Jays baseball is seen across the country - a potential market of about 30 million people (admittedly they earn less money than the average American). I doubt Oakland's local TV/radio have nearly that kind of reach.

3) Giambi was neutral about returning to Oakland - there was the pull of the Yankees, a team he always wanted to play for. Delgado really wants to play for the Jays, it isn't just an act he puts on.
_Donkit R.K. - Saturday, September 27 2003 @ 12:07 PM EDT (#89545) #
I think Delgado should be offered 6 years at 66 million. Maybe with base salaries of 8-8-10-10-14-16 and maybe some of those 14 and 16 million dollar years can be deferred payments into his 40's.

BTW, I'm with Tsuji on who the greatest ever to wear the Jays uniform is.
_benum - Saturday, September 27 2003 @ 12:28 PM EDT (#89546) #
Sure, it'd take an amazingly good player to take away that mantle from Rickey Henderson.

I don't know...it could be Rocket. Where does Clemens rank as an SP v.s. where Ricky ranks as an OF?
_Donkit R.K. - Saturday, September 27 2003 @ 12:55 PM EDT (#89547) #
benum brings up a good point. It is close between the two.
Craig B - Saturday, September 27 2003 @ 01:37 PM EDT (#89548) #
Well, Henderson has been more valuable over his career than Roger, but that's a natural position player vs. pitcher thing. They're both in the top 3-5 at their positions (Roger as a RH starter) in history. There is a good argument for Clemens as the best RH pitcher of all time, just as Henderson is the greatest leadoff man ever to don a uniform.
Named For Hank - Sunday, September 28 2003 @ 10:06 AM EDT (#89549) #
Sure, it'd take an amazingly good player to take away that mantle from Rickey Henderson.

But Rickey was just a rent-a-Jay, wasn't he?

Not that I didn't love having him here. :)

And please do not mention the name of that beastly Clemens along with "greatest Jay" ever again...I think that being a great Jay has to include your off-field performance and personality as well, and Roger hated us.
_Donkit R.K. - Sunday, September 28 2003 @ 12:35 PM EDT (#89550) #
Named For Hank - The discussion concerning Henderson and Clemens has to do with the greatest player to wear a Jays uniform, not the greatest Jay. I think it's safe to say Delgado is the Greatest Jay with his performance this season.
_Blue in SK - Monday, September 29 2003 @ 11:51 AM EDT (#89551) #
Back to the Carlos debate for a second. In the above posts there was some great discussion regarding runs above replacement level. Both sides making great comments, but one comment that was not made is the effect on his teammates run productions with out him in the heart of the order. Is anyone going to pitch to Wells if Carlos is not there to protect him? There will also be less opportunity for RBIs for the bottom of the order, without Carlos and his 400+ OBP. Replacing his production is one thing, but the effect on the rest of the team is another.

Although, I am sure there are some metrics to measure this as well and I would be interested to read some more if there is.
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