I figured out what I want to happen in this World Series.

I want a split of the next two games, and then in game 6 in Yankee Stadium I want the Yankees to take a 4- or 5-run lead in the bottom of the 8th.

And then I want Joe Torre to have Roger Clemens pitch the last inning of his career winning the World Series in Yankee Stadium.

Yes.

If this is indeed the Rocket's final appearance in the majors (and I think it is), then we might want to start thinking where he ranks in the all-time pantheon. To my mind, the post-1900 pitchers who rank above him can be listed like this:

1. Walter Johnson

Based on IP, wins, strikeouts, K/BB ratio and ERA+, which I think best express the degree of excellence and dominance of a pitcher, I think Clemens is the second-best pitcher of all time. I recognize legitimate arguments for Christy Mathewson, Lefty Grove, Tom Seaver and Greg Maddux.

Any thoughts?

Here are Clemens' numbers in those categories, BTW:

4278.2 IP
310 W
4,099 K
2.97 K/BB
142 ERA+ (not incl. 2003)

Jordan,

It's really hard to compare pitchers from the dead-ball era to those since 1920. Pitchers could throw many more innings per season in the dead-ball era, because they could save their stuff for tight spots to a much greater degree than they do. The threat of the home run changed pitching probably even more than it did hitting.

So, if we remove Walter Johnson and Christy Mathewson from consideration on this basis, I'd say that the only competition for Clemens is Grove, and Grove wins. My argument is as follows. Grove's peak in the early 1930s was by any measure substantially better than Clemens' peak in the late 80s. Grove maintained his form into his late 30s as well as Clemens did. Clemens' only advantage is that he started his "major league" career earlier than Grove.

You probably are aware that when Grove was in his early 20s, he pitched for Jack Dunn's Baltimore Orioles for 5 years. After Dunn's forced sale of Babe Ruth in the teens (1913?, 1914?), Dunn was bull-headed about not selling Grove. The "minor leagues" then were not what they are now. Great players (e.g. Buzz Arlett) played in the minors for years because their teams simply wanted to keep them, and there was no farm system arrangement at that stage.

In my view, Grove was a significantly better pitcher, but Clemens ranks second since 1920, and that's pretty damn good.

If I'm the Astros or the Rangers, the real reason I want to try to convince Clemens to "un-retire" is to start grooming him to be a pitching coach with the organisation.

Given how many young(er) starters have reportedly been helped by Roger's advice and example (Schilling, Hentgen, Pettitte to name three), I think he has the tools to be one of the few greats who'd also make a great teacher.

I'm not sure I'd let him step into the majors right away, but fortunately both clubs have minor league clubs not too far from Roger's home:

The Astros have a AA affiliate in Round Rock, Texas, just a little north of Austin and about four hours from Houston.

The Rangers' AA affiliate in Frisco, north of Dallas, is about 5 1/2 hours from Houston.

I won't miss Clemens one bit. Along with Barry Bonds, he's one of my least-favorite players of all-time. This does not colour my appreciation of his skills -- he's awesome, obviously, though I am not in a position to say just where he ranks all-time.

May he take his rings and Cy Young awards and all the memories of being fortunate enough to play close to his home -- Toronto and New York are right next door to Texas, no doubt -- and never be heard from again.

The two greatest players to emerge since Jackie Robinson broke the barrier are Gitz' two all-time least favourite players.

What does that say about the greatest professional athletes? What does that say about Gitz?

Obviously that I'm jealous of them, Jurgen. What else could it be?

The two greatest players to emerge since Jackie Robinson broke the barrier are Gitz' two all-time least favourite players.

Aren't you overstating Jeremy Giambi's greatness just a wee tad?

I can't really believe I'm saying this but Gitz is right. I'm from Boston and then moved to Oakland so I've had the good luck to watch them but the bad luck of having to deal with their bad moods and horrible relations with people. I still view Clemens as a traitor for leaving Boston, that will never change and he is absolutly despised in my house. Bonds has always blown off reporters and refused to sign autographs but he can hit the cover off the ball. I think these two should form an all-jerk team along with Ty Cobb, who was reputed to be the biggest jerk in the history of the game.

Hijack:

Jose Cruz is out of a job again. I'm just curious whether those who critized JP for letting him go for nothing want to chime in with their comments?

Obviously that I'm jealous of them, Jurgen. What else could it be?

Sarcasm, eh? How am I supposed to be sure if you're not using emoticons?

No, I just think it's interesting, because I'm sure a lot of people feel the same way. Provided athletes aren't out killing and raping should they be so deserving of our scorn just for not being "nice"?

I still view Clemens as a traitor for leaving Boston

I'm not Roger's biggest fan, but he was pushed out of Beantown by Duquette. Look it up. (Duquette also changed the way the Bosox retire players' numbers so he wouldn't have to retire Clemens' "21".)

Really, I think Jays fans have more to be upset by than Boston fans, since Clemens helped orchestrate his own departure to New York while still under contract. (Thanks again, Gord.)

Another hijack.

Bow your heads...the John Waddin era is over. He signed a minor league deal with Texas.

I'm not Roger's biggest fan, but he was pushed out of Beantown by Duquette.

Yup. So was Mo Vaughn, in many ways, but Duquette was dead right about that one, though he never gets credit for knowing that Mo was a year or two away from being washed up.

Really, I think Jays fans have more to be upset by than Boston fans, since Clemens helped orchestrate his own departure to New York while still under contract. (Thanks again, Gord.)

While I agree with the sentiment, the blame for this has to be placed on golden boy Paul Beeston, who made the handshake deal part of the unwritten contract with Clemens and then flew off for the Commissioner's office, leaving Ash to eventually figure out how to get value in return for a guy who everyone in baseball knew had to be dealt. Beeston did a lot of great things, but I sometimes think this was only one of several skeletons in his closet that we'll never hear about.

Anyway, don't feel too bad about the Clemens trade to New York -- it eventually led to Dustin McGowan. Anyone know how?

http://economics.about.com
Anyway, don't feel too bad about the Clemens trade to New York -- it eventually led to Dustin McGowan. Anyone know how?

Oooh.. oooh.. oooh. I know. He was a compensatory pick for losing a lefthanded reliever as a free agent to the Expos.

Mike

Jose Cruz is out of a job again.

I wonder how much that dropped fly ball had to do with it. That said, his .250/.366/.414 line, even in a tough pitchers' park, was good for only 7th out of 9 regular NL rightfielders. When you're only ahead of Juan Encarnacion and Roger Cedeno, you haven't had a good year. His OPS was 844 before the All-Star Break, 683 thereafter. No wonder the Giants weren't willing to pick up his $4 million option.

They may still ask him back at a lower salary, but Jose's days of multi-million-dollar deals are over. His OPS totals for the last six years,

757
791
789
856
755
780,

should now have demonstrated to everyone's satisfaction that there is, in fact, no superstar trapped in there trying to get out.

He was a compensatory pick for losing a lefthanded reliever as a free agent to the Expos

Give that fan a contract. It was Graeme Lloyd, to be exact.

I may be misremembering, but wasn't Wasdin the guy traded straight-up for Jose Canseco?

And isn't he following the reverse-Canseco career path? Let's see, Toronto, Boston, Texas ... he ends up in Oakland next, right?

Jose Cruz is out of a job again. I'm just curious whether those who critized JP for letting him go for nothing want to chime in with their comments?

I think those guys hang out at The Star not 'da Box'

Really, I think Jays fans have more to be upset by than Boston fans, since Clemens helped orchestrate his own departure to New York while still under contract. (Thanks again, Gord.)

Nothing to back this up but an unreliable memory, but, wasn't it Beeston who agreed to that provision with Clemens when he signed not Ash ?

Mick, Wasdin has already ridden the A's Train, having gophered himself out of a job some years back. This was before the Beane Era Of Super Duper Wisdom, so one should not rule out a return to Oakland just yet.

And Ben: whadda ya mean you can't believe you're agreeing with me? I'm always right!

:) (wink, wink) (I'm joking) (Really, I'm kidding; I don't think I'm right all the time) (OK, most of the time, but not all the time ... )

And Jurgen: The Juice didn't do it .............

http://economics.about.com
And Jurgen: The Juice didn't do it

Jeez.. out of O.J. and Kobe, you think O.J. is the innocent one?

Mike, the jury's still out on Kobe (literally. it's not even convened yet). But Orenthal, he was acquitted.

Gitz, don't you mean you're always left?

http://economics.about.com
But Orenthal, he was acquitted.

He was found not guilty. He wasn't found innocent. :)

Mike

Gitz,

Wasdin didn't ride the A's train, he took it.

Though I occasionally claim to be an 'SC alum, I hold no love for O.J. Simpson, who literally got away with murder. I forgot to use emoticons again, but I was being sarcastic.

Looks like the umps are trying to wrap this one up for the Yankees. A brutal call on the Matsui ground ball.

A lot of columnists devoted a lot of newsprint to Roger this morning. In the St. Petersburg Times, John Romano asks "How will you recall the Rocket?"

Is it the power of Clemens you will remember, or the way he would wield it? Do you define him by his intensity or is it his intimidation?

Do we excuse his fury or should we applaud it?

Laura Vecsey of the Baltimore Sun looks at another side of the legend.

He was human, Clemens was, as he walked off for a curtain call and then to the kind of baseball immortality reserved for players of his elite caliber.

There are dozens of other tributes out there; feel free to add yours or link to others you think are noteworthy. The ovation in an opponents' park, and the respect from the Marlins, particularly Pudge, McKeon and Beckett, in the middle of a tense World Series game, may be remembered longer than throwing a broken bat or plunking someone in retaliation for months-old homers.

I know there's overwhelming statistical evidence to contradict the opinion of one old geezer, but I believe Clemens is on a par with Pedro Martinez and Greg Maddux as the best righties I've seen since Bob Gibson. Roger deserves extra credit for sustaining that excellence as long as he did, and perhaps I would rate him higher if I liked him.

In a way, it's almost too bad that Clemens' career ended on the wrong end of a 3-1 score in Miami, a city that didn't even have a franchise until Roger was well into his career. Not exactly a storybook ending -- but storybook endings aren't all they're cracked up to be, anyway.

Here's what I remember about Clemens today, in no particular order:

1. Utter dominance on the mound: power, physicality, intimidation, mastery. Moreso than the smaller Martinez and the meeker Maddux, Clemens was the natural heir to Gibson and Feller. He didn't just win; he beat you.

2. The two 20-strikeout, no-walk games, ten years apart. If you ask me, that far surpasses Johnny Vander Meer's freak stat as the most impressive individual pitching achievement ever. (Sidebar: Kerry Wood's game was better.)

3. The bizarre feud with Mike Piazza: the brutal, mean-spirited beaning and that weird bat-throwing incident in the '99 Series. A glimpse of the sociopath lurking inside the competitor.

4. His brilliance in Toronto: the two best consecutive seasons posted by a Jay pitcher until Roy Halladay came along. Related to that, the excitment and fun of hearing the Jays had signed him, bad decision though it turned out to be.

5. The awful way he left Toronto: forcing a trade, refusing to go to Houston in a deal that would have brought no one worse than what the Yankees eventually offered, going to the hated Yankees far from the home he supposedly cherished in Texas. Words and deeds completely at odds, untrustworthiness.

6. Giving his children dumb-ass names that all start with K. Short of naming them all Roger Junior, how much more self-centred, -obsessed and -referential can you get? Hey Roger: your kids are human beings, not walking commemorative plates for your career.

7. Constantly thinking, hoping, predicting, wishing that he was finally over the hill, couldn't hack it anymore, was getting the deserts he so richly deserved -- never more so than on Opening Day at Skydome 2003. It never happened.

8. The rare thrill of watching a guy play and knowing I'm looking at one of the very best who ever wore a uniform.

Jordan,

I have exactly the same feeling about Clemens. As has been said before: in the tradition of Ty Cobb, a great ballplayer, but not much of a man.

Griffin on Clemens???

I'm thinking the opposite, since Griffin is usually wrong. I cannot for the life of me understand why the Star (that rag) puts up with his blather??????

I am amazed that so many people paid such careful attention to the evidence presentd at the O.J. Simpson trial that they were actually able to form an opinion on the evidence. I was so aggressively uninterested in the whole thing from day one, that to this day I couldn't tell you the meaning of any of the silly catchphrases, etc. that grew out of that trial.

Admittedly, I did not pay attention to the Simpson trial. Not one second, other than a few minutes of the initial car "chase." It's all garbage. It's all friggin' garbage.

So, yeah, my opinion that he is guilty is just that: it's an opinion. Even if I could understand the machinations of the lawyers, I'd still think that.