The Website hasn't yet caught up with Dale Petroskey's announcement, but he made it live a minute ago.

Eck and Molly were the two guys I did not vote for this year; neither, to me, is a first-ballot Hall of Famer, not even in an off-year.

Courtesy of poster Allen M. at Baseball Primer, here's the complete vote count.

ELECTED
Paul Molitor 431 (85.2%)
Dennis Eckersley 421 (83.2%)

NOT ELECTED
Ryne Sandberg 309 (61.1%)
Bruce Sutter 301 (59.5%)
Jim Rice 276 (54.5%)
Andre Dawson 253 (50%)
Rich "Goose" Gossage 206 (40.7%)
Lee Smith 185 (36.6%)
Bert Blyleven 179 (35.4%)
Jack Morris 133 (26.3%)
Steve Garvey 123 (24.3%)
Tommy John 111 (21.9%)
Alan Trammell 70 (13.8%)
Don Mattingly 65 (12.8%)
Dave Concepcion 57 (11.3%)
Dave Parker 53 (10.5%)
Dale Murphy 43 (8.5%)
Keith Hernandez 22 (4.3%)
Joe Carter 19 (3.8%)
Fernando Valenzuela 19 (3.8%)
Dennis Martinez 16 (3.2%)
Dave Stieb 7 (1.4%)
Jim Eisenreich 3 (0%)
Jimmy Key 3 (0%)
Doug Drabek 2 (0%)
Kevin Mitchell 2 (0%)
Juan Samuel 2 (0%)
Cecil Fielder 1 (0%)
Randy Myers 1 (0%)
Terry Pendleton 1 (0%)
Danny Darwin 0 (0%)
Bob Tewksbury 0 (0%)

Any BBWAA members who cast a vote for Drabek, Mitchell et al should have their voting privileges revoked.

The choices are fine, it's who didn't make it that's too bad.

Sandberg and Blyleven most blatantly.

Just an observation ...
Six of the top eight finishers are ex-Cubs. I do not know what this indicates.

This whole distinction about being elected on the first ballot is spurious, in my view. Let's have a moment of silence for those deserving candidates who fell short this year. In my mind, the following should also be in the HoF:

Sandberg
Sutter
Gossage
Trammell
Dawson
Blyleven
Parker
Whitaker (write-in; he never should have dropped off the ballot last year)

This list demonstrates (if you accept my premise that the above players meet HoF standards) that the Hall is suffering from a backlog of viable candidates, and is less representative of baseball's truly great players than ever before.

Joe Carter less than 5%. I think he has to wait for the veterans committee.

Eck and Molitor didn't just sneak in either...those are bigger numbers than I expected.

I'm sure that my thoughts on Eck are well known by now but I find it especially sad that he's so well regarded while Goose Gossage and to a lesser degree, Bruce Sutter and Lee Smith, get such little respect in comparison. Is the gap really that large?

Joe Carter should be allowed to visit the Hall of Fame. He sure shouldn't be in it. He probably shouldn't even be in the notional 'Hall of Very Good'. Much as we all like him.

Does anyone know if Blyleven and Trammell gained or lost on a percentage basis compared to last year?

I'll be disgusted if Jim Rice is eventually voted in (he would be the worst player selected by the writers if he were). Rice is a slightly better candidate than Joe Carter, but not much better. I could literally name 30 eligible (or formerly eligible) outfielders not in the Hall that have better qualifications.

Sandberg ought to (deservedly) make it in a few years, but sadly I think the Dutchman never will.

My biggest disappointment is that Keith Hernandez scored fewer than 5% of the vote and is now (I think) off the ballot. I would take Hernandez ahead of Mattingly and Garvey when starting up a ballclub; he was the all-around equal of Eddie Murray, deservedly elected on his first ballot last year.

I also second Shrike's lament for Lou Whitaker.

Sandberg
G 2164
R 1318
HR 282
SB 344
.285/.344/.452, 114 OPS+
Gold Gloves 9

Whitaker
G 2390
R 1386
HR 244
SB 143
.276/.363/.426, 117 OPS+
Gold Gloves 3

Give Sandberg the edge in speed and defence, but otherwise those numbers are so close as to make you wonder how anyone can justify the gap between Ryno, who'll almost certainly get into the Hall next year, and Sweet Lou, who'll have to wait for the Veteran's Committee to get around to him someday.

What's really funny is Stieb (one of the greatest pitchers of his generation) beating Eisenrich only 7 votes to 3.

Jim Rice would be the *worst* player in the Hall, if elected by the writers?! Surely that's just careless hyperbole.

Molitar goes in as a Brewer. A championship and WS MVP should not change a player's allegiance to the team he played 15 of 21 seasons with as a beloved icon. If it does, especially for a guy that seems to have more integrity than the average ball player, it says alot about where the game has gone.

Hijack:
Roberto Alomar signs with the D-Backs for an undisclosed dollar figure or timeline.

The Royals signed Juan Gone for 1 year/$4M with a mutual option at $7M for the second year (if the team decides not to take the option, Gonzalez gets a $500K buyout...The contract includes as much as $2 and $1.5 in it's respective seasons for incentives based on plate appearances).

The Rockies signed three players to one year contracts on Monday, Royce Clayton, Damian Jackson and Mark Sweeny.

The Devil Rays signed Danys Baez to fill the role of closer. No financial terms released but he was scheduled to make $5M from Cleveland before being non-tendered.

It's being reported that the Padres will acquire Cirillo, pitcher Brian Sweeney and cash Tuesday in a trade for catcher Wiki Gonzalez, pitcher Kevin Jarvis, infielder Dave Hansen and a minor leaguer, said a source familiar with the deal. The teams must first receive approval from the commissioner's office because the Padres are getting more than $1 million in cash from Seattle. Cirillo will make $6.7 million in 2004 and $7 million in 2005. Jarvis is under contract for $4.25 million next season. But the Padres will receive enough money from the Mariners to make the deal a wash financially, the source said.

Eric Young signs a one year deal with Texas, no financial terms released.

The Indians made a trade with the Expos, going to Cleveland is LHP Scott Stewart and coming north are two minor leaguers, 23 year old IF Macier Izturis (Cesar's younger brother) and 25 year old OF Ryan Curch. Cleveland also signed Jeff D'Amico to a minor league contract.

Blyleven and Sandberg (and Sutter) gained votes. Blyleven is still unlikely to get in, he'll need to gain a lot faster, especially since there are a couple years coming up in which he doesn't have a chance (2007, for example, has Gwynn, McGwire, & Ripken).

Trammell held steady, as did Rice & Dawson, so none of them are likely in.

I'm somewhat surprised at the numbers that Eck and Molitor got to get in the Hall. I voted for both to go in too! I think that Eckersley gets all the respect and attention because he was on very good team and is generally regarded as the guy to have been the first to be in the modern day closer's role. (Tho I think Lee Smith and Goose Gossage should both be in the Hall. Maybe with Eck's induction the floodgates will open)

Molitor will go in as a Brewer and Eck as an Athletic.

In my view, Whitaker was a better offensive player than Sandberg (the 19 points of OBP in a much less favorable offensive context outweigh to a large degree the 26 points of slugging), and had a longer career than Sandberg. There would probably be a 10-15 point difference in GPA+. Overall, taking into account Sandberg's defensive superiority, I'd rate Whitaker the slight edge.

Gentlemen,

What must one do in order to qualify for the ballot? Is it simply time served at the major league level?

????Who the $%^# voted for Kevin Mitchell????

Thx

Way back in my 1984 Strat-O-Matic league, the guy who owned the Tigers traded Lou Whitaker and Willie Hernandez to the Cubs for Ryne Sandberg and a warm body. Sandberg and Trammell, double-play combination: I don't think a single ground ball got through that infield all season.

The Cubs did better, though: they picked up Tim Teufel from the Mets to platoon with Whitaker against lefties (a Teufel-Whitaker platoon ... only in Strat-o) and made the playoffs. Your classic win-win.

Shrike ...

That's not what I wrote. I wrote Rice would be the worst of the ones selected by the writers. Peruse the list if you like and name someone worse.

I think my reaction to your post implicitly recognized a distinction between election by the writers and the Veterans Committee. I will go take a brief look on B-Ref when I have some spare time . . .

It is unfortunate that Dave Stieb didn't get very much recognition, as he was one of the better pitchers over the course of the 1980s and unlike Eisenreich, Martinez, Valenzuela, Carter and Key, Stieb was one of the best in the league for three or so years, a strong argument for the hall. I don't think that he had enough good years to merit entrance to the hall.

I don't think that Sandberg is a Hall of Fame player. Like fellow Cubbie Ron Santo, he recieves a lot of credit for his defensive excellence, but similarily, his many weak (by HoF standards) years are overlooked for whatever reason. Although there are many worse players in Cooperstown, for entrance into baseball's shrine, the Ryno needs a much more compelling argument than that.

It is very hard to imagine Molitor entering as anything but a Brewer or the Eck going in as anything but an A.

It is unfortunate that Dave Stieb didn't get very much recognition, as he was one of the better pitchers over the course of the 1980s and unlike Eisenreich, Martinez, Valenzuela, Carter and Key, Stieb was one of the best in the league for three or so years, a strong argument for the hall. I don't think that he had enough good years to merit entrance to the hall.

Has anyone been to the Hall recently? I was there in the summer an thought that it could really benefit from a bit of a makeover. It was altogether unappealing for young fans and frustratingly, you couldn't touch anything. They didn't have anything on the new SABRmetric way of analyzing talent either. If they continue to remain as stagnant as the unused relics housed in the Hall of Fame, Cooperstown will soon find itself in a unfavourable position.

Who's on the ballot for next year?

Xander, it's basically time served. Anyone who serves 10 years in the majors (the minimum for HoF consideration) and isn't a career backup is usually put on the ballot.

Who's on the ballot for next year?

The new guys are Jim Abbott, Jeff Blauser, Wade Boggs, Tom Candiotti, Chili Davis, Jeff King, Mark Langston, Jack McDowell, Willie McGee, Brian McRae, Jeff Montgomery, Otis Nixon, Tony Phillips, Mark Portugal, Terry Steinbach, Darryl Strawberry.

Boggs will be elected, the only other players who might receive more than a scattering of votes are Chili Davis and Darryl Strawberry, and even they are unlikely to get 5%.

There's hope for Sandberg next year, then.

Thanks

Ben NS,

How about being ranked the 7th best second baseman of all-time (Sandberg, I mean) by Bill James? Whitaker is ranked 13th, and should be in. Bobby Grich - perhaps the most underrated post WW-II player of them all - is ranked 12th.

Underrepresentation of second sackers in the Hall is a pet issue of mine. The voters (and many fans) simply don't make the proper allowances for the defensive value of the position, and the shortening effect it has on careers. Yet the vets let in Mazeroski, who is ranked 29th by James, but statistically could be ranked 40th-50th (where Bill Doran resides). Maz had great defensive skill, but was a mediocre hitter. James obviously gives him bonus points for his big homerun and his special status as arguably the greatest glove man of all time.

Sandberg ranks 9th in career Win Shares at 2B (Carew is ahead of him, but spent several years as a 1B - eliminating him would move Sandberg up to 8th). Whitaker ranks 8th, a sliver ahead of Ryno. Both may be passed by Biggio, but it will be close. If you crunch the numbers, Ryno at his peak pushed Barry for the best player in baseball title.

In terms of peak value, Sandberg moves up the list. For top three seasons, Sandberg is bested only by the Fab Four: Hornsby, Lajoie, Collins and Morgan; Whitaker floats in around 20th to 25th. In top 5 seasons, Sandberg is 9th, a shade behind Carew, but there's a big gap to #10 - Grich.

All three men (Sandberg, Grich and Whitaker) belong in the Hall for a very simple reason - they were among the very best ever at their position.

Jay Jaffe's thing in BPro today notes that there's a weirdly high score apparently required of 2B to make it into the hall, which backs up your case, Robert.

(Jay doesn't say it that way - he describes it as a high average quality of player among HoF 2B, but it amounts to the smae thing)

Who will be the first Hall of Famer to go in wearing a Jays cap? Maybe Alomar if he doesn't decide to play for too long and continue play poorly? Nobody else seems to stick out who played long enough for the Jays and had a good enough career. Where will Delgado fit into the conversation when his name goes on the ballet?

With any luck, Chris, it will be Roger Clemens. ;)

Seriously, though, why not Stieb?

So next year will be Wade Boggs, Ryne Sandberg, and/or perhaps... Pete Rose?

If Stieb had more 20-win seasons, a better winning percentage, and had consummated more of those near-no-hitters he would certainly get to the Hall.

Alan Trammell 70 (13.8%)

Nayone think this guy deserves a spot or would have one if it weren't for Arod/Nomar/Jeter/Tejada/Alex Gonzalez?

Trammell is a no questions asked HoF'er in my book. James ranks Ozzie 7th and Trammell 9th among shortstops (Barry Larkin is 6th), but in my book they have equal credentials when you adjust for the DH.

Only A-Rod is clearly better than Trammell. Nomar probably will be, Jeter (due mostly to bad defence) and Tejada will end up having worse careers. It may not seem this way because 1) they are in their primes 2) offensive levels are much higher now.

Gonzalez get extra credit for being the only shortstop to play for 2 cities simultaneously right?

Congratulations to Molitor and Eckersley. Sympathy to Sandberg, who does have a solid chance next year, and shame on the writers for their continued appalling treatment of Blyleven, Gossage and Trammell. I'm shocked that Stieb didn't get 5%; never thought he'd be elected but that was rude.

Coach hasn't dropped in on this thread, but I know he feels Gossage should have gone in before Eckersley despite Eck's 150 wins, 20-win season, and no-hit game as a starter. From today's the New York Times: 'Eckersley, who will join Hoyt Wilhelm and Rollie Fingers as the only relievers in the Hall, said, "There's no way I would have gotten into the Hall strictly as a reliever."'

If that's not timing...

Thank goodness for the only "TRUE" Hall of Fame! BBWAA gets its, most of the time!

I love Dave Stieb, but he is not a Hall a Famer...Remember this is not the joke at the corner of Front and Yonge Street!

I hope Gossage gets in soon!

We've got to start a media campaign so Goose can leapfrog Sutter. Gossage has everything you'd ever want: long career, great years with high IP totals, key member of many championship clubs, character. How can anyone vote for Sutter and not for Goose? What's with these writers, did they sleep though the '70s and '80s? T

Robert,
Do you know how Alomar stand right now in comparison to these other guys you mentioned? I used to argue with a good friend of mine that Robbie had a chance to have a better career than Morgan did but after the last two years I worry he's going to play himself out of any conversation about the best ever 2bs...

First HOF in a Jays cap? Well, how about Fred McGriff?

Don't get me wrong ... I don't think Freddie is really Hall-worthy. But I think the "500 Homers is Automatic" rule might linger long enough for him to take advantage and sneak in.

And he'd probably wear a Braves cap. But why not Alomar AND McGriff, then we can start bucking for Joe Carter and Tony Fernandez, who both have cases about as good as Freddie's. Then all four parts of The Biggest Trade in History To That Point ... ah, never mind.

Molitor is definitely a first-ballot HOFer, but Eckersley is a little below the standard, even though he had a pretty good career as a starter before excelling as a closer.

The biggest oversight in my opinion continues to be Bert Blyleven, with 287 wins for bad teams (3 playoff appearances in 22 years), 242 complete games, 60 shutouts, 3701 Ks and a 3.31 ERA

There is an excellent article in the Globe today by Jeff Blair on Pete Rose and his blatant attempt to use the public to have his suspension rescinded by MLB. Jeff has a vote to elect members to the Hall and says clearly in the Globe today that he will never vote for Rose. I agree with him completely and encourage you to read his article.

I would like to highlight the article for you but I dont know how to do that.

I would like to highlight the article for you but I dont know how to do that.

The 'quick and dirty' method is to put the URL into the Homepage (optional) field, second box down from where you put your name.
Then indicate in your post COMN (Click on My Name).

A great way to figure stuff out yourself is to use the "View Source" feature in your browser and copy/paste stuff out of it.

I.E. Gideon linked an mlb.com story to the words Baseball Hall of Fame at the begininng of this page. If you view the html of this page (with I.E. you do it via View/Source), you'll see how the link was done using a href.

The best way to learn is to look and steal...er...leverage.

Suggestion: A posting/html faq linked from the homepage?

http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20040107.wblair0107/BNStory/Sports/
jim854, the easiest way to link an article is to copy the URL and paste it into the Homepage (optional) box on the "Add Your Comment" form, which is what I've just done with Blair's article. Then you just say COMN (click on my name) for the link.

I have a lot of respect for Jeff Blair, whose coverage of the Jays is consistently fair and thorough. Though I disagree with him on whether Rose belongs in Cooperstown, he has a vote, and I don't. If enough of his peers feel the same way, even a reinstated Pete will be on the outside looking in for two more years. Then, the writers will be able to maintain their holier-than-thou stance, but I expect the Veterans Committee, influenced by Joe Morgan and Mike Schmidt, to induct Rose.

Just to make it clear: I don't condone what Pete did, or his lack of remorse. I probably understand his demons better than most, as I share his affliction, though I've been gratefully in recovery for several years. I hope he finally admits it is a problem, not in some insincere cash grab or as part of a deal with MLB, but to himself. Only then will he be able to get the help he needs for a misunderstood illness. Even if he is genuinely rehabilitated some day, I'm completely against Rose returning to manage. It's not that I think he'll fix games, just because he'll be subject to constant suspicion, far beyond normal second-guessing. Whether or not he ever "atones," Pete does belong in the Hall, with Ty Cobb and other tragically flawed, imperfect men who were great players.

Like Joe Jackson?

http://economics.about.com
Like Joe Jackson?

"Is She Really Going Out With Him?" is a catchy tune, but it's no reason to elect Jackson into the Baseball Hall of Fame.

Mike

Gonzalez get extra credit for being the only shortstop to play for 2 cities simultaneously right?

Alex Gonzalez, 2003:
R/HR/RBI- 123/38/136

2002:
73/20/79 (played hurt)

2001:
136/26/124

The fact Blyleven is not in there will continue to bother me until the day he gets in. Aside from the fact he doesn't have 300 wins, I don't understand what the voters have against him. They can't possibly overlook his strikeout, complete game and shutout totals, and yet they do every year? None of them seems to make any allowance for the fact he pitched for some very poor teams, and was unlucky while doing so as well. Many people have very good cases for Blyleven, and I encourage you to check them out if you still are unsure he should be elected.

I'd also have voted for
Gossage
Sandberg
Dawson
Sutter
Trammell
Whitaker

Like Joe Jackson?

On a more serious note, yeah, Jackson should probably be in the Hall of Fame. I've gone back and forth on this in past years, but I think he should go in if the Vets Committee consider him worthy of the honor.

He should also have "PLAYED AN ACTIVE ROLE IN THE CONSPIRACY THAT THREW THE 1919 WORLD SERIES" on his plaque.

Perhaps instead of singling out Joe Jackson, there should be a Hall of Shame inside the Hall of Fame. In the Hall of Shame, there would be descriptions of baseball's sorrier aspects (the colour bar and racism in general, the Black Sox and gambling scandals in general, drugs both performance-enhancing and mind-enhancing, and greed from Charles Comiskey on down). The Hall of Fame/Shame would embody the duality of the human spirit, but I don't know if it would be a suitable place to bring children.

I'm exaggerating, of course. I do think however that it would be appropriate to acknowledge in the Hall of Fame these serious problems of baseball, which have tarnished the careers of some of the game's greatest players from Ty Cobb, Rogers Hornsby, and Joe Jackson to Pete Rose, Mark McGwire and Sammy Sosa.

Robert Dudek

I accept your argument for Sandberg's entrance into the Hall of Fame. The fact that he was one of the best second basemen ever is certainly grounds for the induction he will likely recieve next year.

What do you think about Ron Santo as a Hall of Famer. After taking a look at your well presented argument, I found that Santo was rated 6th all-time, between Home-Run Baker and Brooks Robinson, two notches ahead of '04 inductee Paul Molitor. He too combined offensive and defensive excellence and had a few standout years with the unspectacular Cubs.

Sorry for the oversight.

Ben NS

Let's stop bickering over if questionable players like Sandberg, Blyleven, Sutter, Rice and to some extend Eck should be in the hall and start to think who MUST be in the hall. A player like Molitor, career 300+ hitter and have 3000 hits should be in the hall no question about it.

Over the 10000+ (guessitmate) players who have made it to the majors on 30+ (guessimate) have had 3000 hits.
Some say because he is a DH he should not be in the hall. Yet he played numerous positions until injury limited his play. This proves he does have the physical skill to be a complete baseball and not just a hitter.

So my question is why is Molitor voted on only 85% of the ballots. He recieved 431 votes, which mean there is another 75 baseball writers who doesn't think he belongs in the hall.

Ok Kevin Mitchell gets 2 votes, maybe because there are actually 2 idiotic baseball writers, but how do you explain 75 idiotic baseball writers for not giving Molitor a vote?

So is the baseball HOF actually harder to get in than all of the other professional sports, or are the baseball writers the most stupid writers of professional sports?

how do you explain 75 idiotic baseball writers for not giving Molitor a vote?

Some witheld their vote because he was primarily a DH, some "punished" him for not being a saint (admitting drug use 20 years ago) and others didn't believe he was worthy of the distinction of first-ballot election. Cal Ripken, Roger Clemens and Barry Bonds won't get 100%, either.

...baseball's sorrier aspects...these serious problems of baseball...

Why single out baseball? Every human endeavour is tarnished, including the religion business and your friendly neighbourhood government. Intolerance, dishonesty and addictions are problems of society, not any particular profession. Baseball, with a nudge and a wink, actually admires some forms of cheating, otherwise Lew Burdette and Gaylord Perry would be pariahs. Sosa's corked bat and McGwire's use of a legal supplement aren't even misdemeanors compared to the actions of any number of corporate thieves. The Commissioner and his cronies haven't been convicted of shady dealing, but there's a racketeering lawsuit, filed by some reputable Canadian investors, hanging over the shameful Expos fiasco.

He should also have "PLAYED AN ACTIVE ROLE IN THE CONSPIRACY THAT THREW THE 1919 WORLD SERIES" on his plaque.

Agreed, that's an important part of Jackson's biography; it explains why his career was so brief. Rose's banishment should also be mentioned on his plaque, along with his achievements, if he is reinstated and admitted. However, there are a lot of guys already enshrined whose indiscretions have been overlooked, and there's no need to make note of Molitor's cocaine use or Eckersley's battle with booze on their plaques. It's not supposed to be a Hall of Perfect Humans, it's to celebrate the best baseball players.

Michael Jordan, considered by many to be the greatest ever in his sport, and a role model to a generation of youngsters, makes Rose look like a penny-ante gambler, with six-figure bets on golf matches and literally millions wagered in casinos. I'm not suggesting that he ever bet on basketball, mostly because no sports book would touch the kind of action that gets his juices flowing. But hypothetically, knowing the man's competitive drive, do you think it would be in his nature to bet against his team? I don't. Nor do I believe that his gambling addiction, if that's what it is, should diminish anything he accomplished on the court. I think it's just sad.

To those who don't understand it, compulsive gambling looks like a character flaw. Especially because lying is one of the symptoms, most people aren't as sympathetic as they might be with victims of cancer or ALS, but make no mistake, it can be a killer, often destroying entire families. I hope that someday, Rose, Jordan or some other celebrity will devote their energies to raising awareness about an insidious disease that affects millions of people, and encouraging them to get treatment. Meanwhile, I hope that a few people will consider the possibility that Pete Rose isn't evil, merely sick.

Santo should be in the Hall of Fame.

I just took in an excerpt from a previously taped interview with Molitar where he talks about playing in Toronto. Of course winning a World Series title helps but he said he was floored by the number of fans that game through the gate every night...though the most interesting part of the interview is when they talked about an interview he did the day after game 6 of the '93 series. Apparently the ESPEN interviewer asked him if he knew the Canadian national anthem. What did Mollie do? Broke out O'Canada. Apparently he wasn't so sharp (being the morning after a long night of celebrations) but he got it all out word for word.

And just because I'm so rediculously appallled by the idea and know it's not worth another post, I've just listened to a radio spot that talks about how Safeco Field has integrated wireless internet technology into their concession business. Apparently fans can logon to a Web site which permits for food to be ordered to a specific seat. All you do is type in your seat and credit card info, and the soft pretzels come to you...They say this technology has also been applied to parking meters in a couple cities.
END THE MADNESS!