Of all the games not to be televised, this is probably the worst choice. Arizona lefthander and perfect-game hurler Randy Johnson, a first-ballot Hall of Famer and very arguably the greatest southpaw pitcher of all time, makes what will surely be his final visit to the Skydome today, in a matchup against another red-hot portsider, Ted Lilly. Get to the game or get to your radio and be part of this one. Carlos Tosca has sat every one of his lefty hitters, including the surging Eric Hinske, for this game. The Jays will be in tough, but they can at least say they battled one of the all-time very best on this day. Enjoy.
The game is listed as park of my Extra Innings package. I hope it's not blacked out. If it is on, I'll provide visual updtaes.
The DBacks broadcast is on channel 431 (MLB Extra Innings) on Rogers Digital Cable here in Ottawa. Announcers are Mark Grace and Greg Schulte.
Ugh, Rogers is playing elevator music instead of showing the commercials, like they do on the Pay-per-view broadcasts.
Ouch.. what a lineup for the Jays:
Menechino, 2B
Gomez, 3B
Johnson, LF
Wells, CF
Zaun, C
Woodward, SS
Phelps, DH
Berg, 1B
Rios, RF
Hope Phelpsie can have a big game.
Menechino, 2B
Gomez, 3B
Johnson, LF
Wells, CF
Zaun, C
Woodward, SS
Phelps, DH
Berg, 1B
Rios, RF
Hope Phelpsie can have a big game.
Yesterday I said something negative about Rios then he hits a triple. Today I say something negative about the Jays lineup, and the first batter hits a homer. You could make a fortune short selling whatever I say. :)
Must be a misprint - my MLB GameDay screen says Menechino hit a leadoff HR.
Nah ...
Nah ...
Here I come to save the day!
Randy left one up in the middle part of the zone. Menechino must have been sitting on the fastball and deposited over the left-centre field wall.
Randy left one up in the middle part of the zone. Menechino must have been sitting on the fastball and deposited over the left-centre field wall.
Randy came in with a 2-0 fastball located on the outer half. Zaun reached out and drove it to the left-centre field gap to score Gomez.
Randy doesn't have the good fastball yet.
Randy doesn't have the good fastball yet.
Unit strikes out the side.
21 pitches, 2 runs.
Good first inning for the Jays.
21 pitches, 2 runs.
Good first inning for the Jays.
As usual, Johnson's slider is deadly as he strikes out 3 of the 6 batters he faces. It seems that the number of runs the Jays score in this game will be predicated on how often Johnson gets ahead of the hitter and is able to use the slider.
Is the game on internet radio for free anywhere?
It should be somewhere. Anyone have a list of stations that carry the game?
I'm listening on Radio 98 London, but I don't think you can listen to that station over the web.
It should be somewhere. Anyone have a list of stations that carry the game?
I'm listening on Radio 98 London, but I don't think you can listen to that station over the web.
http://www.570news.com/
COMN for a radio internet broadcast.
COMN for a radio internet broadcast.
Two singles by the D-backs off decent pitches. Gonzo pulled a high pitch into right; Hillebarnd hit a soft liner off a 1-2 curve. Tracy chops one to second and they get the force. First and third, 1 out.
590's working - and it looks like Mighty Mouse is too! And this clown tossed a perfect game? ;)
All I can see is that Woody made an error. Any details?
Costly defensive mistakes. A sharp grounder to Menechino, who fumbled the hop and turned a possible DP into a 4-3 out. Then Hammocj hit a routine grounder on a 1-2 to Woodward that was plain booted. The ball went through the wickets and allowed two unearned runs to score. 3-2 Arizona. Another single makes it 1st and 3rd, 2 out.
Finley battles but pops out to Gomez at third to end the threat.
Berg had an 11-pitch AB, flying out to centre. Johnson's fastball is about 94, the slider and other off speed stuff is at 81.
Thanks for the info Robert.
Good news is that Johnson has thrown 37 pitches through 2.
Good news is that Johnson has thrown 37 pitches through 2.
Very good 3rd inning for Lilly; not too many pitches thrown. He had Bautista completely off-balance with the change, which resulted in a lazy fly to left. Hillenbrand hit a high chopper up the middle that Frank couldn't get a firm grip on (would have been very close at first anyway). The innings ends with Tracy hitting a routing grounder for a 4-3 put out.
Randy is starting to get in the groove. Both Wells and Zaun were caught looking - the one that rung up Vernon was definitely inside, but it's Joe Brinkman behind the plate.
I can't see Randy lasting beyond the 7th at the current pace of pitches thrown.
I can't see Randy lasting beyond the 7th at the current pace of pitches thrown.
Olson is struck out by a wicked curveball - one of the best I've ever seen Lilly throw. One out. The Arizona broadcasters are talking about how much they like Toronto. Mark Grace shows he knows a few things about Toronto (the capital of Ontario; the largest city in Canada), and now moves on to discuss the CN Tower.
Devore is struck out on a great slider moving away from the lefthanded hitter. Two out.
Hammock, off-balance, pokes one to third for an easy 5-3. Going to the bottom of the 4th now.
Has anyone heard anything more about Doc's injury? They used a dirty word during TSN's recap last night to describe his condition.
In the middle of a strikeout-the-side inning, Randy got Phelps on a 3-2 power slider clocked at 86, low in the zone. He's rolling now.
Both pitchers have thrown 73 pitches through 4 innings.
Gomez makes a nice player on a grounder near the bag to just get a hustling Hairston - Hinske doesn't make that play.
Finley is rung up on a slider on the outside corner that was probably out of the zone, but called a strike by Brinkman.
Bautista hits one that looks promising but ends up as nothing more than a routine shallowish fly to Reed in left. Easy inning for Lilly.
Finley is rung up on a slider on the outside corner that was probably out of the zone, but called a strike by Brinkman.
Bautista hits one that looks promising but ends up as nothing more than a routine shallowish fly to Reed in left. Easy inning for Lilly.
Did you catch him yesterday? He thought he'd nailed one so he started strutting and it landed on the warning track for a single. Later he missed one off the wall by a few inches.
Menechino hits one in the shortstop hole. Olsen was positioned perfectly, but bounces a throw that Hillenbrand can't handle. Safe on error.
After a groud out to the pitcher with the runner going to second, Reed goes down on another great slider down and in. 5 innings in the books, 87 pitches for Johnson.
Johnson is now 21 K's from 4000.
He's thrown 87 pitches today. Any guesses on how many Brenly will let him throw? 110? 115?
He's thrown 87 pitches today. Any guesses on how many Brenly will let him throw? 110? 115?
Yesterday I said something negative about Rios then he hits a triple.
Did you say "I bet he won't crash into the wall in the sixth inning" yesterday as well? ;)
Did you say "I bet he won't crash into the wall in the sixth inning" yesterday as well? ;)
Sneeps: Rios stayed in the game, but that's all I know.
Did you say "I bet he won't crash into the wall in the sixth inning" yesterday as well? ;)
LOL
The one thing I know for sure is that Randy Johnson will *not* get injured from a falling meteorite.
[looks up]
LOL
The one thing I know for sure is that Randy Johnson will *not* get injured from a falling meteorite.
[looks up]
A little trouble for Lilly in the 7th. With a man on first, Hillenbrand hit a drive to the track that was hauled done by Rios on a very nice play. Rios flipped the ball to Vernon and then went down in a heap after slamming into the wall. Just the wind knocked out of him. Olsen got one past Gomez for a double but Gonzo could only come around to third.
Lilly got ahead of Devore and induced another routine grounder to Frankie, inning over.
Lilly got ahead of Devore and induced another routine grounder to Frankie, inning over.
RE: Moffatt's latest prediction:
"And the 2-1 from Johnson...oh, no! There's a large hunk of iron coming down! The Diamondbacks are in flight, trying to get out of the way and the meteorite is hooking...hooking...there it goes! Right on top of the mound! Touch 'em all, Randy, you'll never get crushed by a bigger rock in your life."
"And the 2-1 from Johnson...oh, no! There's a large hunk of iron coming down! The Diamondbacks are in flight, trying to get out of the way and the meteorite is hooking...hooking...there it goes! Right on top of the mound! Touch 'em all, Randy, you'll never get crushed by a bigger rock in your life."
Great AB by Zaun, finally mashing a 2-2 offering at the shortstop Olson that ate him up. 1 out single.
ROFL. I needed a joke like that after spending the last couple hours doing paperwork. Thanks!
No dice, as Woodward hits the ball well, but too close to the centrefielder, and Phelps finally goes down on a 2-2 fastball up and away to end the inning. Johnson is at 109 pitches; the 7th might be his last inning depending on how he feels and how confident Brenly is in his bullpen.
Wow. In the time it took me to say "Come on Lilly, strike Hammock out", he did.
I don't like the decision to send Lilly out again - at 103 pitches we may end up seeing a reliever with a man already on, and that's not a good situation for the Jays.
http://journals.jevon.org/users/keith_talent
Solo shot, could have been worse.
Solo shot, could have been worse.
Wait a second...Sportsline says "Hammock homered to center"
Didn't Hairston just join the Windows Club?
Didn't Hairston just join the Windows Club?
http://journals.jevon.org/users/keith_talent
Doesn't he 'just inspire' you?
Doesn't he 'just inspire' you?
http://journals.jevon.org/users/keith_talent
me thinks it was Hairston
me thinks it was Hairston
Lilly deserved better today; he's really been good lately.
Lilly gives up a bomb to Hairston to dead centre to make it 4-2 Arizona. Looked like a fastball he left up, but could have been a change (didn't get to see the velocity). He gets Devore to ground out and leaves the game with 2 out in the 7th with 114 pitches thrown. A very nice game.
Speier is in to hold the fort.
Speier is in to hold the fort.
Naturally it's Speier; we need to save Adams for the 9th.
I didn't think Randy would be back, but then again, he is a machine.
http://journals.jevon.org/users/keith_talent
I think you bring Frasor into the 9th. It's an off day tomorrow, right?
I think you bring Frasor into the 9th. It's an off day tomorrow, right?
I didn't realize how poor a hitter Berg was until I checked out his GPA: .135.
Er, make that .137 now. I pulled a Moffatt there.
Er, make that .137 now. I pulled a Moffatt there.
Yesssss. I'm so glad I've been saying Rios isn't ready for the majors. :)
http://journals.jevon.org/users/keith_talent
Why is Jerry always very happy to have us on the Internet?
Pet peeve: calling RJ a 'hall of famer'. He's not a 'hall of famer'. Call him a 'future hall of famer' (unless we discover a gambling problem).
Why is Jerry always very happy to have us on the Internet?
Pet peeve: calling RJ a 'hall of famer'. He's not a 'hall of famer'. Call him a 'future hall of famer' (unless we discover a gambling problem).
I think Fawaz was joking about Tosca's tendancy to bring in Adams whenever the game matters most.
Berg! Rios! Tying run on first, none out, top of the order coming up! Randy Johnson leaving the game!
Just the perfect situation to blow it. ;)
Just the perfect situation to blow it. ;)
Why is Jerry always very happy to have us on the Internet?
Because he realizes that eventually only nerds will be allowed to cast Hall of Fame votes?
Because he realizes that eventually only nerds will be allowed to cast Hall of Fame votes?
Singles by Berg and Rios knock Johnson out of the game. The crowd gives him an appreciative hand and he tips his cap.
Both Lilly and Johnson threw 114 pitches with 80 for strikes. Crazy!
http://journals.jevon.org/users/keith_talent
How about that! The prospect of facing Menechino chases RJ from the game.
How about that! The prospect of facing Menechino chases RJ from the game.
http://journals.jevon.org/users/keith_talent
Holy Smokes! Mighty Mouse's batting average is .296! That shot up fast.
Holy Smokes! Mighty Mouse's batting average is .296! That shot up fast.
Speaking of voting, the All-Star ballot has Menechino listed as a 2B option...for Oakland. Not that I would vote against O-Dog, of course.
Well Menechino is certainly no Reed Johnson.
Hinske's PH'ing for Gomez. I guess that's why he didnt PH for Menechino.
Hinske's PH'ing for Gomez. I guess that's why he didnt PH for Menechino.
http://journals.jevon.org/users/keith_talent
what a waste
what a waste
Hinske's PH'ing for Gomez. I guess that's why he didnt PH for Menechino.
That was a quick answer to my question. :)
That was a quick answer to my question. :)
Did the Snakes have any lefties warming up in the pen? If I'm the Snakes, I don't like the Koplove vs. Hinske matchup.
http://journals.jevon.org/users/keith_talent
It's time for us to win one late in the game. Lord knows we've dropped enough.
It's time for us to win one late in the game. Lord knows we've dropped enough.
http://journals.jevon.org/users/keith_talent
UGGHHHH!
UGGHHHH!
Mike, stop predicting the opposite of everything! What is this, some warped Seinfeld episode?
They'll get 'em next inning.. but man, that was frustrating.
A nice inning blows itself up. After reaching a 3-1 count, I was begging for Tosca to take the bunt off. Instead Frankie bunts it a little too hard and they get the force. Hinske then smacks one right at the 2B and its a GIDP.
Bunting down by two runs is rarely good idea.
Bunting down by two runs is rarely good idea.
Quick! Predict a 6 run inning for Arizona and a 3 up 3 down in the bottom of the 8th.
Maybe someone more wise in the ways can explain something to me. Isnt one of the primary reasons for bunting the surprise factor? To catch the fielders out of position? If that's so then why would Menechino show bunt 4 or 5 pitches in a row before laying one down. Wouldnt the opposition know what was going on and be completely ready for it (and then throw Berg out at 3rd rendering the bunt totally useless)?
It's generally for moving up the runners, not as a surprise move. Robert can probably give you a better answer, tho.
*Painful groan*
Zaun knocks one in, then another double f@%@*&ing play.
Zaun knocks one in, then another double f@%@*&ing play.
http://journals.jevon.org/users/keith_talent
These double plays are killing us.
These double plays are killing us.
Haven't followed the game, but I question why Hinske didn't start. I know he's facing a lefty but why remove a hot bat, espeicially when the club is having trouble scoring runs. Same goes for Clark a few nights ago. MLB Nazi's have removed the game from the fan website. Bastards won't even let me listen to the game!
Listening to the Reds' online broadcast: Only specific numbered balls (that they can track) will be thrown to Junior until he hits 500, ordered by MLB to avoid another situation like the one in Frisco. Neat.
http://journals.jevon.org/users/keith_talent
It seems my stock of Randy Johnson and Griffey rookie cards are only climbing in value.
It seems my stock of Randy Johnson and Griffey rookie cards are only climbing in value.
Woo 980 Kruz does have the game. Thx for the heads up Keith!
http://journals.jevon.org/users/keith_talent
It's the little station MLB overlooked I guess. Keep it under your hat!
It's the little station MLB overlooked I guess. Keep it under your hat!
This blows - they might have swept this series and now it looks like they're going to lose it.
Phelps, Berg, Rios due up. Single-single-homer anyone?
Only two runs downs, that's not so much. Ive got my fingers crossed.
Maybe we'll see Randolph and it'll be walk-walk-walk-walk-walk-walk.
Oh well, 1-2. Hey, it's better than Moffatt's record today.
http://journals.jevon.org/users/keith_talent
As the Phillies learned in spring training: 'You don't throw behind Catalanotto'.
As the Phillies learned in spring training: 'You don't throw behind Catalanotto'.
If the Jays lose today we will be 6 games below .500. It seems like we've had many chances to get under 5 but can't do it. Also it seems like we've been hovering around 2 or 1 games back of the O's forever. Watchout for the D-Rays, they're 15-6 in their last 21 games.
We're just not destined to win this one: 3 double plays in the last 3 innings.
http://journals.jevon.org/users/keith_talent
Aren't the Jays something like 3-36 lifetime against the D-Rays?
Aren't the Jays something like 3-36 lifetime against the D-Rays?
My bad, we will be 7 back, and if the D-Rays win we are .5 game away from being tied for dead last in the division.
I can't believe the Jays aren't inspired by the WE ARE TORONTO sentiment they insist on doing every ninth inning at the Dome.
You gotta hate those series where you score more runs than the other guys, yet you only take 1 of 3.
http://journals.jevon.org/users/keith_talent
So is Frasor officially no longer unofficially the closer?
So is Frasor officially no longer unofficially the closer?
I will bring out my lucky charm starting next Tuesday. Watch the Jays make a charge for the wild card. Assuming it will take 95 wins to do it, that means the Jays will finish the year on a 67-32 run!
Especially when they really could've taken the other two. A blown save, a missed DP, a costly error and double-plays turned be the bad guys; at least Doc's back!
Couldn't the Jays take 10 runs from Saturday and give 5 to the other games?
if the D-Rays win we are .5 game away from being tied for dead last in the division
Bottom of the ninth, Colorado and Tampa tied at 2. Who else just became a Shawn Chacon fan?
(Speaking of which, Crawford singles. Uh oh.)
Bottom of the ninth, Colorado and Tampa tied at 2. Who else just became a Shawn Chacon fan?
(Speaking of which, Crawford singles. Uh oh.)
Damn. Crawford stole second and Lugo just singled him in.
If the Jays finish last in the division (which I think might happen)I gotta believe there will be some heat on JP. So far JP has been given a free pass.
I also shudder to think how many season tickets they would sell. I'm guessing the Jays only have about 6-8,000 season ticket holders right now. Could dip below 5000 for next season.
I'm surprised only 22,000 bothered to show up today considering Unit was on the mound and they had the sleepover promotion.
I also shudder to think how many season tickets they would sell. I'm guessing the Jays only have about 6-8,000 season ticket holders right now. Could dip below 5000 for next season.
I'm surprised only 22,000 bothered to show up today considering Unit was on the mound and they had the sleepover promotion.
I think it's unlikely that they'll finish in last in the division, but if they spend any time in fifth this year, it will really hurt their ticket sales. Right now they're 24th overall for average attendance, which is particularly low when you consider that they're one of the cheapest tickets in MLB. I wouldn't be surprised if they're in the bottom 4 for gate revenue right now.
Why were the LH batters on the bench?
Coming into today's game, LH batters were hitting .123 against the Unit.
Coming into today's game, LH batters were hitting .123 against the Unit.
Things are not looking great for this franchise, that's for sure. I am in the middle of reading "Chasing Steinbrenner" but it's tough to read knowing that J.P.'s plan isn't working the way it was supposed to. I know I may be being overly pessimistic, but when a team takes a big step back as the Jays have this season, that tends to happen. I hope I am wrong, but I don't think I am.
Les Expos are looking pretty bad, with average of 8210 fans. Throw out the home opener (which wasn't even considered a home opener) and it's a paltry 6646.
But, hey, don't worry. They will have a new home by the All-Star Break...not.
But, hey, don't worry. They will have a new home by the All-Star Break...not.
It seems that all it takes is a 3 and 3 homestand and suddenly things are not going according to plan, they're going to finish last and the season-ticket base is under threat.
Yikes, folks, chill out. They just lost a close game to this generation's Warren Spahn with their best hitter on the shelf and bit players all over the field. It's remarkable the final score was just 5-3. This is hardly cause for gloom or despair, and it's certainly no indication that the Grand Design has fallen apart. Considering where they were on May 1, and the astounding number of injuries since then, their current record is terrific. Relax.
http://journals.jevon.org/users/keith_talent
I wouldn't put any blame on JP. The team is doing surprisingly well considering nearly half the payroll is going to one player who has contributed almost zero this year. Also the injuries...
I might wonder about Tosca. Tosca's a great manager but he could handle that bullpen better. I think Cito was a better manager in close games.
Any team that wants to win 95 games has to win a whole lot of close ones, that means winning those 2-0 games, not sitting back and saying: 'oh well, wasn't out night, we didn't score 6, this is the American League.'
I wouldn't put any blame on JP. The team is doing surprisingly well considering nearly half the payroll is going to one player who has contributed almost zero this year. Also the injuries...
I might wonder about Tosca. Tosca's a great manager but he could handle that bullpen better. I think Cito was a better manager in close games.
Any team that wants to win 95 games has to win a whole lot of close ones, that means winning those 2-0 games, not sitting back and saying: 'oh well, wasn't out night, we didn't score 6, this is the American League.'
http://journals.jevon.org/users/keith_talent
You know those Diamondbacks have a pretty bleak future. Remember all those 'deferred salary' deals they made to pick up artillery for the World Series run? They're gonna be paying the bill for that title for years to come, as attendance drops. RJ's gonna retire or get sick of playing there and then they're in a much worse position than the Jays. So, sure, Carlos is making a disproportionate amount of the payroll, but this contract is off the books next year.
You know those Diamondbacks have a pretty bleak future. Remember all those 'deferred salary' deals they made to pick up artillery for the World Series run? They're gonna be paying the bill for that title for years to come, as attendance drops. RJ's gonna retire or get sick of playing there and then they're in a much worse position than the Jays. So, sure, Carlos is making a disproportionate amount of the payroll, but this contract is off the books next year.
http://me.woot.net
It seems that all it takes is a 3 and 3 homestand and suddenly things are not going according to plan, they're going to finish last and the season-ticket base is under threat.Don't kid yourself - it only takes one loss for that to happen. Bauxites are very negative this season.
I think Cito was a better manager in close games.
Ward, you pitch the 8th. Henke, you pitch the 9th. I'll be inside eating bon-bons.
Ward, you pitch the 8th. Henke, you pitch the 9th. I'll be inside eating bon-bons.
How many times this year have the Jays scored all of their offense in the first?
I realize that they didn't get all of it in the first today, but still...it seems to happen often this year where they score early, but not often.
I realize that they didn't get all of it in the first today, but still...it seems to happen often this year where they score early, but not often.
While the posters in here would probably still follow the team if they were 20-43 this season, the majority of the public won't. And looking at the attendance, very few fans in Toronto care.
Every Jays fan has the right to be extremely dissapointed right now. The man in charge (JP) is the guy that said we could win 90-95 games this season not the fans. And when you make that kind of statment and perform the exact opposite it's egg in the face. I understand the Jays have been hit hard by injuries but that's all part of the game.
Last year the Jays made a real charge late in the season to end up winning 86 games, and most thought they could improve on that. No matter what spin you put on it the team has taken a huge step backwards. They're one game away from being dead last in the division. If people think this team has a bad record, it will probably only get worst. 20 of the last 70 games of the season are vs. the Yanks.
Thing have been the exact opposite of what I thought was going to happen this season. I thought Phelps was going to hit 25Hr's
with 100 RBI's and Hinske was going to bounce back. I expected a dip in number from Wells and Delgado but not that big of a dip. For the most part the Starting Pitching has been solid, the bullpen has been below average. But on a whole, the pitching has been good but the bats haven't been there. Most thought it was going to be the exact opposite this season.
I imagine it would be a tough sell to the public when the team has no chance of ever competing for a playoff spot. I believe the Jays lost a lot of money last season and I wonder how long will Rogers want to hang on.
I'm very interested to see what happens to Delgado in the off-season. Do the Jays try to re-sign him or let him go and use some of that money for other players or cut salary again?
Anyways hopefully the boys come out strong and win Tuesday vs. the most under-rated pitcher in the majors (Schmidt)
Every Jays fan has the right to be extremely dissapointed right now. The man in charge (JP) is the guy that said we could win 90-95 games this season not the fans. And when you make that kind of statment and perform the exact opposite it's egg in the face. I understand the Jays have been hit hard by injuries but that's all part of the game.
Last year the Jays made a real charge late in the season to end up winning 86 games, and most thought they could improve on that. No matter what spin you put on it the team has taken a huge step backwards. They're one game away from being dead last in the division. If people think this team has a bad record, it will probably only get worst. 20 of the last 70 games of the season are vs. the Yanks.
Thing have been the exact opposite of what I thought was going to happen this season. I thought Phelps was going to hit 25Hr's
with 100 RBI's and Hinske was going to bounce back. I expected a dip in number from Wells and Delgado but not that big of a dip. For the most part the Starting Pitching has been solid, the bullpen has been below average. But on a whole, the pitching has been good but the bats haven't been there. Most thought it was going to be the exact opposite this season.
I imagine it would be a tough sell to the public when the team has no chance of ever competing for a playoff spot. I believe the Jays lost a lot of money last season and I wonder how long will Rogers want to hang on.
I'm very interested to see what happens to Delgado in the off-season. Do the Jays try to re-sign him or let him go and use some of that money for other players or cut salary again?
Anyways hopefully the boys come out strong and win Tuesday vs. the most under-rated pitcher in the majors (Schmidt)
I don't get all the negativity.
Firstly, JP never said that they would win 90 to 95 games--that was Tosca. JP said as recently as a month or two ago on Headline Sports that a playoff spot in 2004 was not realistic. He has also consistenly mentioned 2006 and 2007 as the most realistic time frame.
No team can expect to sustain the injuries the Jays have and expect to be above .500. Wipe out the majority of any team's entire infield, go 4 deep on the catcher depth chart, 2 of your starting pitchers (including your best one), 3 in the bullpen, and your starting left fielder and I highly doubt even the Yankees could be above .500. Throw in injuries to most of your top upper-level prospects and most teams would be in a bind.
As for the attendance, it has been reasonably good given the record. Averaging above 20,000 at this stage of the season (before school is out) is probably ahead of previous years. Nobody mentioned yesterday that the Jays won in front of a big crowd (+30,000) for the first time in a long time yesterday. And, I highly doubt that Rogers is losing alot of money. The last I heard they were close to break even given the rise in the C$ and cutbacks in payroll.
As well, for the first time in a decade, we actually have a legitimate pitching staff (tied for 4th in the AL) and top 3 over the past 30 days--unlike Baltimore (dead last) and Tampa Bay (3rd last). The hitting is easy to get once everybody gets healthy and more experience (Rios, Quiroz, Gross, Adams etc). The problem with this organization over the past decade has been pitching and for now it looks like JP has solved that problem.
Firstly, JP never said that they would win 90 to 95 games--that was Tosca. JP said as recently as a month or two ago on Headline Sports that a playoff spot in 2004 was not realistic. He has also consistenly mentioned 2006 and 2007 as the most realistic time frame.
No team can expect to sustain the injuries the Jays have and expect to be above .500. Wipe out the majority of any team's entire infield, go 4 deep on the catcher depth chart, 2 of your starting pitchers (including your best one), 3 in the bullpen, and your starting left fielder and I highly doubt even the Yankees could be above .500. Throw in injuries to most of your top upper-level prospects and most teams would be in a bind.
As for the attendance, it has been reasonably good given the record. Averaging above 20,000 at this stage of the season (before school is out) is probably ahead of previous years. Nobody mentioned yesterday that the Jays won in front of a big crowd (+30,000) for the first time in a long time yesterday. And, I highly doubt that Rogers is losing alot of money. The last I heard they were close to break even given the rise in the C$ and cutbacks in payroll.
As well, for the first time in a decade, we actually have a legitimate pitching staff (tied for 4th in the AL) and top 3 over the past 30 days--unlike Baltimore (dead last) and Tampa Bay (3rd last). The hitting is easy to get once everybody gets healthy and more experience (Rios, Quiroz, Gross, Adams etc). The problem with this organization over the past decade has been pitching and for now it looks like JP has solved that problem.
So JP has solved the pitching problem ...... and yet there record is still one game away from being dead last in the division.
I still consider myself a new baseball fan learning all the rules, players, stats, etc... but I'm worried with all the losing that the Jays are going to lose more fan support. All I ever read about from Godfrey is how the Jays are losing money each year and I wonder how long can this continue.
As for the on field performance even with all the injuries it has been a let down.
But as a fan of the Jays I can still see good (ie. Johnson, Lilly, Zaun, etc...) in the dark times.
I like other fans just want to see more wins. They could lose everysingle game the rest of the season, and I would still watch the Jays next season but I'm concerned about the fan support from others outside of this site.
I still consider myself a new baseball fan learning all the rules, players, stats, etc... but I'm worried with all the losing that the Jays are going to lose more fan support. All I ever read about from Godfrey is how the Jays are losing money each year and I wonder how long can this continue.
As for the on field performance even with all the injuries it has been a let down.
But as a fan of the Jays I can still see good (ie. Johnson, Lilly, Zaun, etc...) in the dark times.
I like other fans just want to see more wins. They could lose everysingle game the rest of the season, and I would still watch the Jays next season but I'm concerned about the fan support from others outside of this site.
http://journals.jevon.org/users/keith_talent
About the attendance:
I would say look at the teams directly above the Jays in home attendance. 6 out of those 7 teams are either leading or in striking distance of the division lead, they're contenders. One of those teams is a World Champion. I think the Jays are drawing pretty well considering they're sniffing last place. If the Jays were contending for the Wild Card I'd imagine attendance would be up by at least 20%.
Ward, you pitch the 8th. Henke, you pitch the 9th. I'll be inside eating bon-bons
Yes true, but Cito seemed to have a knack to manufacture that decisive run to get to those guys. He also had to discover that those guys (Ward and Henke) work well in those situations. Tosca just seems to be getting creative in finding ways to let Adams blow it.
About the attendance:
I would say look at the teams directly above the Jays in home attendance. 6 out of those 7 teams are either leading or in striking distance of the division lead, they're contenders. One of those teams is a World Champion. I think the Jays are drawing pretty well considering they're sniffing last place. If the Jays were contending for the Wild Card I'd imagine attendance would be up by at least 20%.
Ward, you pitch the 8th. Henke, you pitch the 9th. I'll be inside eating bon-bons
Yes true, but Cito seemed to have a knack to manufacture that decisive run to get to those guys. He also had to discover that those guys (Ward and Henke) work well in those situations. Tosca just seems to be getting creative in finding ways to let Adams blow it.
I'd like to see Cito 'manufacture' some runs with Berg, Cash and Pond... :)
A few things, and I don't want to come off as sounding TOO negative here:
1) Tosca must change his strategies. I am utterly baffled every time he benches a hot batter because there is a "lefty on the mound." I'm sorry, but I'd rather take my chances with Cat out there instead of Berg. Same with Howie Clark and Eric Hinske. In a game against the Big Unit you need your best hitters out there, and Josh Phelps, Dave Berg, and Chris Gomez just don't stack up IMO.
2) Am I the only one that's becoming growingly concerned with the progression, or lack there of, of Josh Phelps? It seems when he first came up he could handle most fastballs, and just lace them all over the field, heck even over the fences! Now, it just seems he's overmatched nearly every at-bat and his philosophy of always taking the ball the other way seems to be limiting his production.
3) Chris Woodward is horrific, and has been for the last few seasons. I never understood why people were so high on him in the first place. His defense is costing the Jays games, and it has in the past as well. His offense isn't even a good enough reason to have him in the lineup now. He's been a major dissapointment in my mind. I would not mind if he, Dave Berg, and Terry Adams didn't wear Blue Jay uniforms ever again.
In conclusion, I think it's clear that the Jays will finish in 3rd place. The STARTING pitching has been excellent minus Josh Towers, and the hitting seems to be coming around... I hope. Baltimore is dropping fast, and the Rays won't be able to keep this up. When the Jays injured players get back, they should start to win more games.
1) Tosca must change his strategies. I am utterly baffled every time he benches a hot batter because there is a "lefty on the mound." I'm sorry, but I'd rather take my chances with Cat out there instead of Berg. Same with Howie Clark and Eric Hinske. In a game against the Big Unit you need your best hitters out there, and Josh Phelps, Dave Berg, and Chris Gomez just don't stack up IMO.
2) Am I the only one that's becoming growingly concerned with the progression, or lack there of, of Josh Phelps? It seems when he first came up he could handle most fastballs, and just lace them all over the field, heck even over the fences! Now, it just seems he's overmatched nearly every at-bat and his philosophy of always taking the ball the other way seems to be limiting his production.
3) Chris Woodward is horrific, and has been for the last few seasons. I never understood why people were so high on him in the first place. His defense is costing the Jays games, and it has in the past as well. His offense isn't even a good enough reason to have him in the lineup now. He's been a major dissapointment in my mind. I would not mind if he, Dave Berg, and Terry Adams didn't wear Blue Jay uniforms ever again.
In conclusion, I think it's clear that the Jays will finish in 3rd place. The STARTING pitching has been excellent minus Josh Towers, and the hitting seems to be coming around... I hope. Baltimore is dropping fast, and the Rays won't be able to keep this up. When the Jays injured players get back, they should start to win more games.
The only good thing about today's game not being on local TV is that it means one less game with Cerutti & Faulds.
http://journals.jevon.org/users/keith_talent
I'm starting to sound like Joe Morgan and that's really scary! But all I'm saying is these guys have proven that they can't manufacture a run when they really need one. And really, anybody from AAA should be able to contribute in manufacturing a run. It's either about drawing the walk, laying down a bunt, executing on the hit and run, or getting the sac fly. It's AAA stuff. Berg, Cash, and Pond should at least be able to do that. If they can't, there's something wrong with the organization. It's fine to teach grinding at the plate (oops, forgot, you can't teach that! you have to be born with it - according to Moneyball), working the count, etc. But there's no reason these guys can't both be grinders and be able to execute.
If you're hitting .220 fine. But if you can't hit a sac fly with a runner on 3rd with less than two outs, late in a close ball game, you're a waste of skin. More than a waste of skin, you're a contagious cancer that's grounding into inning-ending double plays.
I'm starting to sound like Joe Morgan and that's really scary! But all I'm saying is these guys have proven that they can't manufacture a run when they really need one. And really, anybody from AAA should be able to contribute in manufacturing a run. It's either about drawing the walk, laying down a bunt, executing on the hit and run, or getting the sac fly. It's AAA stuff. Berg, Cash, and Pond should at least be able to do that. If they can't, there's something wrong with the organization. It's fine to teach grinding at the plate (oops, forgot, you can't teach that! you have to be born with it - according to Moneyball), working the count, etc. But there's no reason these guys can't both be grinders and be able to execute.
If you're hitting .220 fine. But if you can't hit a sac fly with a runner on 3rd with less than two outs, late in a close ball game, you're a waste of skin. More than a waste of skin, you're a contagious cancer that's grounding into inning-ending double plays.
That knack was having a deep roster that knew how to execute (the by-product of a high payroll). Today we saw that the Jays just could not execute at a high enough level. As much as I love what Menechino has done for us since coming from Oakland, he put down a disasterous bunt with runners on 1st and 2nd (can't recall the inning) that single handedly took us out of that inning (the bunt turned into a force out at 3rd and with the force still intact, Gomez promptly hit into a doubleplay). If he gets down the sac bunt, Gomez comes up with men at 2nd and 3rd with 1 out. Were the rest of the inning to go as it did in reality, Gomez drives in a run with a groundout up the middle and the runner from second advances to third, bringing up Johnson (a guy with a habit of getting clutch 2-out hits) with the tying run standing 90 feet away.
One thing I was glad to see was just how upset Menechino was with himself after the end of the inning. He deserved to be. That bunt was simply unacceptable.
...Anyone else notice how the D-Backs weren't respecting Johnson's bunting abilities? I've begun to change my perception of bunting for a base-hit because of Reed's abilities (I used to consider it a risk not worth taking) so now I'm curious why he doesn't do it a little more often -- especially against the elite pitchers (Randy Johnson and Eric Gange come to mind since he looked pretty over-matched).
One thing I was glad to see was just how upset Menechino was with himself after the end of the inning. He deserved to be. That bunt was simply unacceptable.
...Anyone else notice how the D-Backs weren't respecting Johnson's bunting abilities? I've begun to change my perception of bunting for a base-hit because of Reed's abilities (I used to consider it a risk not worth taking) so now I'm curious why he doesn't do it a little more often -- especially against the elite pitchers (Randy Johnson and Eric Gange come to mind since he looked pretty over-matched).
I am now convinced that Woodward is the second coming of Eddie Zosky.
"I still consider myself a new baseball fan learning all the rules, players, stats, etc... but I'm worried with all the losing that the Jays are going to lose more fan support. All I ever read about from Godfrey is how the Jays are losing money each year and I wonder how long can this continue."
Attendance would be a lot worse if it wasn't for the fact that the Jays won 2 WS titles. Management (like Raptors mgmt is starting to figure out) has to deal with the fact that Toronto is not a good sports town - it is a Leafs town. Combine this with lingering effects of the '94 strike (which killed interest in the casual fan)and the corporate money that fled when the Leafs moved to the ACC and the Raptors showed up, and that means they're not going to generate a ton of gate receipts. Also is it just me or do the Jays have an uncanny ability to lose big when the get big crowds (opening day, anyone?).
Although I didn't realize there where new baseball fans in Toronto any more - that give me a little hope!
"I still consider myself a new baseball fan learning all the rules, players, stats, etc... but I'm worried with all the losing that the Jays are going to lose more fan support. All I ever read about from Godfrey is how the Jays are losing money each year and I wonder how long can this continue."
Attendance would be a lot worse if it wasn't for the fact that the Jays won 2 WS titles. Management (like Raptors mgmt is starting to figure out) has to deal with the fact that Toronto is not a good sports town - it is a Leafs town. Combine this with lingering effects of the '94 strike (which killed interest in the casual fan)and the corporate money that fled when the Leafs moved to the ACC and the Raptors showed up, and that means they're not going to generate a ton of gate receipts. Also is it just me or do the Jays have an uncanny ability to lose big when the get big crowds (opening day, anyone?).
Although I didn't realize there where new baseball fans in Toronto any more - that give me a little hope!
I'm from Vancouver:)
I did travel to the Skydome 2 summer ago when Phelps hit a HR into the 5th deck, and Estaban outpitched Clemens.
I did travel to the Skydome 2 summer ago when Phelps hit a HR into the 5th deck, and Estaban outpitched Clemens.
Oh yeah and I'm sure Selig would hate this.... but the biggest reason I got into MLB was because of gambling.
Yeah, the Jays aren't going to finish in last this year. They're likely not going to be anywhere near last. 82-85 wins and third place sounds about right.
But as far as attendance goes, only 22,276 for a Sunday afternoon game? With decent seats for $9 Canadian? With Randy Johnson starting? For possibly his last time ever in Skydome? That's not a good thing.
But as far as attendance goes, only 22,276 for a Sunday afternoon game? With decent seats for $9 Canadian? With Randy Johnson starting? For possibly his last time ever in Skydome? That's not a good thing.
It's not acceptable for Tosca to call for a bunt with a 3-1 count, 2 runs down and nobody out. He should have taken the bunt off at that point because the chances of drawing a walk or getting a hit were pretty good. He deserves much more blame for that than Menechino does for putting a little too much on the bunt on turf (where it's difficult to successfully bunt when the defence is expecting it).
And before anyone jumps in to roast Tosca, I will say that despite this mistaken strategy, I think he's a good manager overall.
And before anyone jumps in to roast Tosca, I will say that despite this mistaken strategy, I think he's a good manager overall.
No. They won big in front of the biggest crowd in the homestand.
And before the Jays won World Titles and while they were playing in a stadium hardly fit for A ball they outdrew almost every team in the American League. So anyone who says there aren't enough baseball fans or sports fans in general to support major league baseball in Toronto is simply full of it.
And before the Jays won World Titles and while they were playing in a stadium hardly fit for A ball they outdrew almost every team in the American League. So anyone who says there aren't enough baseball fans or sports fans in general to support major league baseball in Toronto is simply full of it.
Robert, Menechino wasn't executing a suicide squeeze. The runners were going on contact because the batter was using his discretion. I like the decision because you take yourself out of a DP and, in theory, allow your next hitter to easily bring home another run (at that point, getting just a single run would have been OK, there were still a few innings left to play).
Although I do agree that putting down a bunt on turf isn't easy, if Menechino takes it do the first base side of the mound, I can't believe the runner gets forced at third.
Although I do agree that putting down a bunt on turf isn't easy, if Menechino takes it do the first base side of the mound, I can't believe the runner gets forced at third.
What would you say about Montreal then? Can they support baseball?
Lemme clarify: I certainly think Toronto can support MLB. I just realized my last message may have implied otherwise.
Gaston was the least active manager in the majors and was often chastised by fans for being too laid back and letting the players do all the work. Not that any manager would have to do much work manufacturing runs when you have a lineup of Henderson, White, Alomar, Molitor, Carter, and Olerud for two thirds of your batting order.
As far as being automatically able to produce a sacrifice fly on command, it's not as easy as that. You have to be a pretty good hitter to produce a certain type of out on command. And it also depends on what the pitcher is throwing. If you're getting hard sinkers at the knees diving in on your hands it's not going to be easy to get it to the outfield no matter what you do. And you're never going to get down 100% of your bunts just right no matter how good a bunter you are.
If you rely on small ball, you have to deal with the failures. No-one executes 100% of the time. Otherwise people would be scoring runs every inning of every game. I would never bunt with two on and nobody out just to bring the tying run to second. Especially not if the batter is way ahead in the count and has a good eye at the plate.
And if walking could be taught, why isn't everyone doing it? Where are there still hitters with poor walk totals in the major leagues? No-one faces pitchers with great control all the time.
As far as being automatically able to produce a sacrifice fly on command, it's not as easy as that. You have to be a pretty good hitter to produce a certain type of out on command. And it also depends on what the pitcher is throwing. If you're getting hard sinkers at the knees diving in on your hands it's not going to be easy to get it to the outfield no matter what you do. And you're never going to get down 100% of your bunts just right no matter how good a bunter you are.
If you rely on small ball, you have to deal with the failures. No-one executes 100% of the time. Otherwise people would be scoring runs every inning of every game. I would never bunt with two on and nobody out just to bring the tying run to second. Especially not if the batter is way ahead in the count and has a good eye at the plate.
And if walking could be taught, why isn't everyone doing it? Where are there still hitters with poor walk totals in the major leagues? No-one faces pitchers with great control all the time.
Robert, I want to know why you think Tosca is a good manager. I know it's your opinion, and you are of course entitled to it... but I just don't see it.
IMO, Tosca is in the handful of "worst managers in the league."
His bullpen management is horrible, how else can you explain constantly setting yourself up for failure by bringing in Adams in clutch situations, or bringing in Ligtenberg to face a lefty with the bases loaded, or pulling the younger pitches after they get a few baserunners on?
His lineups are mediocre at best, and most of the time flat out dreadful. Just days after getting shut-down by friggin Kaz Ishii with the "all-righty" lineup, he sends it out there again and once again, it can't get the job done. I understand RJ was on the mound, but the team had their chances and they just couldn't cash in on them which has been the theme of the season by the way, as well as double plays.
He keeps sending guys like Woodward and Berg out there, even though everyone knows that their AB's, fielding attempts will turn into failures.
And I also keep hearing how great of a "motivator" he is. And how he saved this team from the days of in game cell-phone use, and the Raul Mondesi's of the baseball world... puhhlease...
If anything he's proven to be horrible at "motivating the troops." If he's so good at getting the team up, why did this team fall flat on their faces at the beginning of the season when they were faced with one of the softest first-month's in baseball? It's one thing to fall flat on your face against last season's schedule... it's another thing to start the year off the way they did against this year's oppening schedule.
IMO, Tosca needs to go. Just my humble opinion of course...
IMO, Tosca is in the handful of "worst managers in the league."
His bullpen management is horrible, how else can you explain constantly setting yourself up for failure by bringing in Adams in clutch situations, or bringing in Ligtenberg to face a lefty with the bases loaded, or pulling the younger pitches after they get a few baserunners on?
His lineups are mediocre at best, and most of the time flat out dreadful. Just days after getting shut-down by friggin Kaz Ishii with the "all-righty" lineup, he sends it out there again and once again, it can't get the job done. I understand RJ was on the mound, but the team had their chances and they just couldn't cash in on them which has been the theme of the season by the way, as well as double plays.
He keeps sending guys like Woodward and Berg out there, even though everyone knows that their AB's, fielding attempts will turn into failures.
And I also keep hearing how great of a "motivator" he is. And how he saved this team from the days of in game cell-phone use, and the Raul Mondesi's of the baseball world... puhhlease...
If anything he's proven to be horrible at "motivating the troops." If he's so good at getting the team up, why did this team fall flat on their faces at the beginning of the season when they were faced with one of the softest first-month's in baseball? It's one thing to fall flat on your face against last season's schedule... it's another thing to start the year off the way they did against this year's oppening schedule.
IMO, Tosca needs to go. Just my humble opinion of course...
Semi off-topic here, but just the thought of someone being born with the "gift of walking" makes me laugh.
I would never bunt with two on and nobody out just to bring the tying run to second
We were getting into the later stages of the game and it was a game where runs, at least by the good guys, weren't so easy to come by. I'm playing for those two runs.
We were getting into the later stages of the game and it was a game where runs, at least by the good guys, weren't so easy to come by. I'm playing for those two runs.
A,
Let me respectfully say that what you suggest goes against the basic percentages of the game.
What is a batter's OBP in all the PAs that reach a 3-1 count? I'd have to guess it's well above .400, perhaps near .500. Koplove has walked a lot of guys this season and Frankie has reached base at a very good clip for the Jays this season. Why would you try a sacrifice bunt in a situation where your chances of having the bases loaded with none out or one run in and two on with NO OUT are fairly high.
You're trailing by two runs and you have a 3-1 count. At the begining of the at-bat, a sac-bunt was debatable strategy, but not when you are one-pitch away from a walk. It's just wrong. The pitcher is under a lot of pressure in that situation - make it work for you.
Let me respectfully say that what you suggest goes against the basic percentages of the game.
What is a batter's OBP in all the PAs that reach a 3-1 count? I'd have to guess it's well above .400, perhaps near .500. Koplove has walked a lot of guys this season and Frankie has reached base at a very good clip for the Jays this season. Why would you try a sacrifice bunt in a situation where your chances of having the bases loaded with none out or one run in and two on with NO OUT are fairly high.
You're trailing by two runs and you have a 3-1 count. At the begining of the at-bat, a sac-bunt was debatable strategy, but not when you are one-pitch away from a walk. It's just wrong. The pitcher is under a lot of pressure in that situation - make it work for you.
I am now convinced that Woodward is the second coming of Eddie Zosky.
Ok, I'll bite.
How exactly is Chris Woodward, who is at least a useful major league baseball player (and hitting pretty damn well this season), the second coming of EZ? Zosky had all of 50 major league at-bats, never could hit, even in the minors, and had more brain cramps in him than a slurpee.
Ok, I'll bite.
How exactly is Chris Woodward, who is at least a useful major league baseball player (and hitting pretty damn well this season), the second coming of EZ? Zosky had all of 50 major league at-bats, never could hit, even in the minors, and had more brain cramps in him than a slurpee.
About Tosca as a manager ...
I'm not going to say much about why I think he's a good manager. I will only say that his bullpen management has been good this year. Adams is a good pitcher who's had some bad outings. His track record is excellent and I've seen no sign that he's lost his stuff.
It really is ridiculous to criticize the pitchers he brings in simply because they don't conform to the way you personally see things. There's lots of things that Tosca does that I wouldn't do - and there are lots of suggestions that I make that would have probably blown up real good if I were the manager (and you'd be calling for my head then). And a significant portion of fan suggestions about lineup moves and pitching changes that I've seen put forward on this site and any other I've frequented are dumb.
Most teams put out a right-only lineup against Randy Johnson if they can. Cat and Hinske haven't hit lefties well in their career, so a lot of people would have called Tosca STUPID if he did put them in there. The day Ligtenberg came in it just so happened that there weren't any lefty relievers available because Kershner was on leave.
Statistically, the Jays pen is around the middle of the pack and given the injuries, a lack of even one truly excellent reliever on the staff and no reliable lefthanders (none of which Tosca is even remotely responsible for), Tosca has done a fine job.
I'm not going to say much about why I think he's a good manager. I will only say that his bullpen management has been good this year. Adams is a good pitcher who's had some bad outings. His track record is excellent and I've seen no sign that he's lost his stuff.
It really is ridiculous to criticize the pitchers he brings in simply because they don't conform to the way you personally see things. There's lots of things that Tosca does that I wouldn't do - and there are lots of suggestions that I make that would have probably blown up real good if I were the manager (and you'd be calling for my head then). And a significant portion of fan suggestions about lineup moves and pitching changes that I've seen put forward on this site and any other I've frequented are dumb.
Most teams put out a right-only lineup against Randy Johnson if they can. Cat and Hinske haven't hit lefties well in their career, so a lot of people would have called Tosca STUPID if he did put them in there. The day Ligtenberg came in it just so happened that there weren't any lefty relievers available because Kershner was on leave.
Statistically, the Jays pen is around the middle of the pack and given the injuries, a lack of even one truly excellent reliever on the staff and no reliable lefthanders (none of which Tosca is even remotely responsible for), Tosca has done a fine job.
http://journals.jevon.org/users/keith_talent
the days of in game cell-phone use
Really?
the days of in game cell-phone use
Really?
http://journals.jevon.org/users/keith_talent
I could imagine Escobar chatting on the phone during the game, that's for sure. Possibly Vernon as well.
I could imagine Escobar chatting on the phone during the game, that's for sure. Possibly Vernon as well.
Yup Keith, I'll never forget that day when Dan Plesac came out and said something about it. Something along the lines of the team chemistry was horrid and if you dropped McGwire on the team, they still wouldn't win.
Ahhh, those were the days
;)
Ahhh, those were the days
;)
Keith, I think it was Stewart or Mondesi, not sure exactly which one it was.
Robert, I respect your opinion, and you present your arguement well... but I fail to see the logic of bringing in Terry Adams repeatedly in clutch situations when he's proven he can't handle it this season.
At some point, you must make adjustments though, and I don't see him making them. Again, you have to realize that certain guys aren't getting the job done so you've got to change their roles at times. Right now, I'd say that I'd rather have Chulk in there in a big spot than Adams and I'm sure many would agree with me.
And about the Ligtenberg usage against Oakland. Yes, there weren't any lefties available, but that doesn't mean you go to the guy with the bloated OBA when facing lefties. Lefties have faired well against Ligtenberg all season, I don't see the logic of bringing him in in that spot.
Robert, I respect your opinion, and you present your arguement well... but I fail to see the logic of bringing in Terry Adams repeatedly in clutch situations when he's proven he can't handle it this season.
At some point, you must make adjustments though, and I don't see him making them. Again, you have to realize that certain guys aren't getting the job done so you've got to change their roles at times. Right now, I'd say that I'd rather have Chulk in there in a big spot than Adams and I'm sure many would agree with me.
And about the Ligtenberg usage against Oakland. Yes, there weren't any lefties available, but that doesn't mean you go to the guy with the bloated OBA when facing lefties. Lefties have faired well against Ligtenberg all season, I don't see the logic of bringing him in in that spot.
http://journals.jevon.org/users/keith_talent
But as far as attendance goes, only 22,276 for a Sunday afternoon game? With decent seats for $9 Canadian? With Randy Johnson starting? For possibly his last time ever in Skydome? That's not a good thing.
But 17,276 would be a worse thing. And 27,276 would be a better thing though probably 'not a good thing.' It takes some in tune with baseball to realize Johnson's pitching on a given day anyhow. I have to be encouraged by the weekend's attendance, with a lineup decimated by injury and a disappointing record. Turn the Jays record around, with some flashy front-page coverage in the Toronto Star, and attendance for today's game is 40,000 no matter who they're playing.
Imagine how the White Sox, Twins, A's, Marlins feel. They're at their zenith and draw about the same as the Jays do. At least here there's hope that it will get better, and soon.
But as far as attendance goes, only 22,276 for a Sunday afternoon game? With decent seats for $9 Canadian? With Randy Johnson starting? For possibly his last time ever in Skydome? That's not a good thing.
But 17,276 would be a worse thing. And 27,276 would be a better thing though probably 'not a good thing.' It takes some in tune with baseball to realize Johnson's pitching on a given day anyhow. I have to be encouraged by the weekend's attendance, with a lineup decimated by injury and a disappointing record. Turn the Jays record around, with some flashy front-page coverage in the Toronto Star, and attendance for today's game is 40,000 no matter who they're playing.
Imagine how the White Sox, Twins, A's, Marlins feel. They're at their zenith and draw about the same as the Jays do. At least here there's hope that it will get better, and soon.
"Gaston was the least active manager in the majors and was often chastised by fans for being too laid back and letting the players do all the work. Not that any manager would have to do much work manufacturing runs when you have a lineup of Henderson, White, Alomar, Molitor, Carter, and Olerud for two thirds of your batting order."
That precise lineup existed for exactly two months at the end of 1993. Gaston also finished in 1st place in 1989, 1991, and 1992. Henderson and Molitor were on none of those teams, and Olerud was a .270 hitter with less power than you'd like from a 1B/DH.
That precise lineup existed for exactly two months at the end of 1993. Gaston also finished in 1st place in 1989, 1991, and 1992. Henderson and Molitor were on none of those teams, and Olerud was a .270 hitter with less power than you'd like from a 1B/DH.
"And before the Jays won World Titles and while they were playing in a stadium hardly fit for A ball they outdrew almost every team in the American League. So anyone who says there aren't enough baseball fans or sports fans in general to support major league baseball in Toronto is simply full of it."
....
I don't live in Toronto so I'm sure most of you have a better understanding of the marketplace but I would think the Jays drew well during the 2 WS years because they were a good team and they didn't have competition like the Raptors or the Lacrosse team. Also probably the Leafs are more popular today than over a decade ago.
I know that basketball is more popular with the kids/teens than baseball because it has more action, and some would find baseball boring.
There is only so much "sport" dollars to go around in the area.
If the Jays had the record of let's say the A's, I doubt they would even average 35,000 a game.
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I don't live in Toronto so I'm sure most of you have a better understanding of the marketplace but I would think the Jays drew well during the 2 WS years because they were a good team and they didn't have competition like the Raptors or the Lacrosse team. Also probably the Leafs are more popular today than over a decade ago.
I know that basketball is more popular with the kids/teens than baseball because it has more action, and some would find baseball boring.
There is only so much "sport" dollars to go around in the area.
If the Jays had the record of let's say the A's, I doubt they would even average 35,000 a game.
To address the attendance issue a bit:
While the posters in here would probably still follow the team if they were 20-43 this season, the majority of the public won't. And looking at the attendance, very few fans in Toronto care.
If you want to just talk numbers, let's compare attendance with the Leafs. The Leafs sell out virtually every game, but capacity at the ACC is 18,800. The Jays draw a comparable number of fans to that, but because the stadium is 52,000 seats large, it feels empty, and the impression is that attendance is poor.
Is the attendance lower than in the past? Yes. Is it disastrously low? No. The Leafs have a comparable payroll, though I imagine they get a lot more for their TV rights (for half as many games, mind you). The Jays "lose" money in a way that is beneficial for Rogers, I'm sure. Were they not owned by the same folks, Sportsnet and The Fan would probably be paying more for the broadcast rights, and the team would be "making" more money. If the Jays "lose" money but Sportsnet "makes" more money from the Jays...well, you can work it out.
The good news is that when the team's plans all come to fruition and the Jays begin a ten year cycle of domination, the stadium will hold all those folks who want to jump onto the bandwagon. And that's fine by me, just save me a seat in 518.
While the posters in here would probably still follow the team if they were 20-43 this season, the majority of the public won't. And looking at the attendance, very few fans in Toronto care.
If you want to just talk numbers, let's compare attendance with the Leafs. The Leafs sell out virtually every game, but capacity at the ACC is 18,800. The Jays draw a comparable number of fans to that, but because the stadium is 52,000 seats large, it feels empty, and the impression is that attendance is poor.
Is the attendance lower than in the past? Yes. Is it disastrously low? No. The Leafs have a comparable payroll, though I imagine they get a lot more for their TV rights (for half as many games, mind you). The Jays "lose" money in a way that is beneficial for Rogers, I'm sure. Were they not owned by the same folks, Sportsnet and The Fan would probably be paying more for the broadcast rights, and the team would be "making" more money. If the Jays "lose" money but Sportsnet "makes" more money from the Jays...well, you can work it out.
The good news is that when the team's plans all come to fruition and the Jays begin a ten year cycle of domination, the stadium will hold all those folks who want to jump onto the bandwagon. And that's fine by me, just save me a seat in 518.
I don't understand it when people bash Skydome saying it's a terrible outdated park for baseball.
Sure it's old compared to the rest of the parks, but I saw a game on a warm summer night with the roof open and I had a blast.
I know ESPN rated all the ballparks last year and the Skydome was near the bottom.
As for the Jays attendance, I would be interested to see how many are comped and to see how many of the tickets belong to promotions like $2 ticket or that newspaper $1 game deal (and them moving up to the good seats)
Sure it's old compared to the rest of the parks, but I saw a game on a warm summer night with the roof open and I had a blast.
I know ESPN rated all the ballparks last year and the Skydome was near the bottom.
As for the Jays attendance, I would be interested to see how many are comped and to see how many of the tickets belong to promotions like $2 ticket or that newspaper $1 game deal (and them moving up to the good seats)
http://me.woot.net
Additionaly, who else are you going to run out to play shortstop? Would you rather have Gomez there?
He keeps sending guys like Woodward and Berg out there, even though everyone knows that their AB's, fielding attempts will turn into failures.I don't think "everyone" knows this with regard to Woodward. The man has a .288 GPA (in only 87 at-bats, granted) and is at least average defensively (subjectively).
Additionaly, who else are you going to run out to play shortstop? Would you rather have Gomez there?
I know that basketball is more popular with the kids/teens than baseball because it has more action, and some would find baseball boring.
Wouldn't this be a bigger problem in American cities, where basketball is more popular than it is in Toronto?
The Leafs were as popular 10 years ago as they are now. Even in the 80s when they stunk they still filled the place and millions would watch on HNIC. That's hasn't changed and never will.
Plus you have the fact that there has been a net influx of more than 2 million people into the GTA in the last 20 years, and that's not counting people who live in other parts of Ontario who come down every now and then.
There is nothing wrong with the market, and as the Raptors continue their hibernation, people will start to turn away from them. At the same time, the newness factor of the ACC will wane and people won't be so keen on holding Raptor's season tickets.
And Lacrosse is supposed to be competition for major league baseball? Ha!
Wouldn't this be a bigger problem in American cities, where basketball is more popular than it is in Toronto?
The Leafs were as popular 10 years ago as they are now. Even in the 80s when they stunk they still filled the place and millions would watch on HNIC. That's hasn't changed and never will.
Plus you have the fact that there has been a net influx of more than 2 million people into the GTA in the last 20 years, and that's not counting people who live in other parts of Ontario who come down every now and then.
There is nothing wrong with the market, and as the Raptors continue their hibernation, people will start to turn away from them. At the same time, the newness factor of the ACC will wane and people won't be so keen on holding Raptor's season tickets.
And Lacrosse is supposed to be competition for major league baseball? Ha!
The real interesting question is how many fans could the leafs draw in T.O. if they played 82 games in the Dome every year for 200 - 9 dollar tickets.
As far as interest changing, I wasn't fully aware of my surroundings the time when the Jays were at their prime in 92-93, but I do know now when I talk to co-workers my age (19-24) and the eventual "so, what sports do you follow?" question comes up and I say I am a huge baseball fan everyone of them resorts to "ohhh... how can you watch that? That is so boring, I could never watch baseball" they then say they're big basketball fans and talk for 10 minutes about the playoffs to which I could care less about forcing me to tune them out completley and nod my head as I back away slowly.
As far as interest changing, I wasn't fully aware of my surroundings the time when the Jays were at their prime in 92-93, but I do know now when I talk to co-workers my age (19-24) and the eventual "so, what sports do you follow?" question comes up and I say I am a huge baseball fan everyone of them resorts to "ohhh... how can you watch that? That is so boring, I could never watch baseball" they then say they're big basketball fans and talk for 10 minutes about the playoffs to which I could care less about forcing me to tune them out completley and nod my head as I back away slowly.
FWIW, I think Chris Woodward has played brilliantly this season when he's been in the lineup, outside of about a week at the very beginning of the year where he did not play well defensively. I didn't watch yesterday's game, so I can't comment. His defensive numbers this year have not been good, but I'd hesitate to make a judgment after 27 games.
As for Carlos Tosca, he has held the team together with spit, string and baling wire through a brutal set of injuries. I think he's done a fine job. His bullpen management has been much better this year than last, despite some bad luck (including some bad outings from whipping boy Terry Adams). He's made some brave choices... promoting Frasor, trying to get some longer outings out of people, and has generally done well with the bullpen. I think a lot of people are conflating bad results with bad decisions; of which there have been some, but not a great deal. I think taking Adams out of the closer role and putting Frasor in was not a good decision - but it's worked out well enough so far, so who am I to know.
Many of the bad bullpen decisions have been those by the front office, not the manager. Falling in love with the wonderful stuff of de los Santos was mistake number one; relying on Kershner to repeat his career year was mistake number two (harsh on Jason; I still think he can be effective, but handing him a job out of ST was not a good move). Those moves, combined with not having a third lefty, were partially responsible for some of the bullpen fiascoes we've seen, as Adams and Ligtenberg are forced to handle lefties that a lefthander normally would take on. I get the distinct impression that J.P. makes his worst moves (viz. de los Santos) when the inner scout takes over and overrides the smart gambler ("Be The House") he really is.
They also took a long time to make a decision on Aquilino Lopez, though I wouldn't assign any blame there. I think Tosca did make mistakes early in the year, relying on Lopez in key situations that his stuff wasn't ready for.
That, for me, is balanced out by the terrific job they did on the starting pitchers, as I'm becoming an even bigger fan of both Batista and Lilly. This team needs some of those young pitchers to move forward. Not having Jason Arnold in the big-league rotation by now, as we'd hoped would happen, leaves a big hole. Miller was filling that brilliantly, and then got hurt. C'est la vie!
As for Carlos Tosca, he has held the team together with spit, string and baling wire through a brutal set of injuries. I think he's done a fine job. His bullpen management has been much better this year than last, despite some bad luck (including some bad outings from whipping boy Terry Adams). He's made some brave choices... promoting Frasor, trying to get some longer outings out of people, and has generally done well with the bullpen. I think a lot of people are conflating bad results with bad decisions; of which there have been some, but not a great deal. I think taking Adams out of the closer role and putting Frasor in was not a good decision - but it's worked out well enough so far, so who am I to know.
Many of the bad bullpen decisions have been those by the front office, not the manager. Falling in love with the wonderful stuff of de los Santos was mistake number one; relying on Kershner to repeat his career year was mistake number two (harsh on Jason; I still think he can be effective, but handing him a job out of ST was not a good move). Those moves, combined with not having a third lefty, were partially responsible for some of the bullpen fiascoes we've seen, as Adams and Ligtenberg are forced to handle lefties that a lefthander normally would take on. I get the distinct impression that J.P. makes his worst moves (viz. de los Santos) when the inner scout takes over and overrides the smart gambler ("Be The House") he really is.
They also took a long time to make a decision on Aquilino Lopez, though I wouldn't assign any blame there. I think Tosca did make mistakes early in the year, relying on Lopez in key situations that his stuff wasn't ready for.
That, for me, is balanced out by the terrific job they did on the starting pitchers, as I'm becoming an even bigger fan of both Batista and Lilly. This team needs some of those young pitchers to move forward. Not having Jason Arnold in the big-league rotation by now, as we'd hoped would happen, leaves a big hole. Miller was filling that brilliantly, and then got hurt. C'est la vie!
As for Carlos Tosca, he has held the team together with spit, string and baling wire through a brutal set of injuries. I think he's done a fine job.
Amen.
Amen.