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Let's start with the good news: the Jays no longer seem demoralized: they're fighting hard to try to win every game, and they're not getting five hits a game any more. The bad news is: well, you probably know the bad news already.

Offense
Two numbers say it all: in August, the Jays scored 132 runs and allowed 174, and were outhomered 41 to 26. Ouch. Mommy, make it stop!
Stats are AVG/OBP/SLG, and are from ESPN's web site (a handy reference for stuff like this).

Dave Berg
.333 .364 .571
He went 7-for-21 in August. Everybody's healthy, and the Jays are trying to get playing time for their kids, so there just isn't anything for Berg to do. I'm sure he'd rather be the forgotten man than the lightning rod for the fans' frustrations.
Grade: C+

Kevin Cash
.154 .185 .154
If only he could hit, even a little bit. But he can't. At this point, the Jays are just waiting for Quiroz. I hope he can hit. I hope somebody can hit.
Grade: F

Frank Catalanotto
.189 .271 .208
Obviously, his numbers were affected by his injury, and he wisely called a halt to the proceedings in mid-month. I don't know whether the Jays have a place for him in 2005; they'll need to play the kids in the outfield, and Cat's lack of durability makes it difficult to justify spending millions of dollars on him. But he can hit when he's healthy, he bats left-handed, and he really enjoys playing here. Maybe he can serve a useful role as a spare part and occasional outfield substitute; however, because Gabe Gross bats left, the two of them are probably competing for one spot on the roster.
Grade: D-, with a medical excuse

Carlos Delgado
.317 .411 .653
He's all the way back. He drove in 30 runs this month, which is an extremely impressive accomplishment given how few runners were actually on base in August. He's hitting for average again, and he's drawing walks again.

At this point, I think the Jays should make every effort to sign him, as he may be more affordable than some people think. His summer slump means that his perceived value is lower than his actual value; there are probably GM's out there that haven't noticed that he's back at the top of his game. And there's that whole silly God Bless America thing; GM's that are hard-core Bushies probably think that Carlos is a commie or something.

I even think that the Jays can risk offering him arbitration. For one thing, this gives the Jays more time to negotiate with him. And, if Baltimore or Tampa Bay or somebody offers him huge money, the Jays will get more precious draft picks. And even if the worst case scenario comes true – he accepts arbitration, and is awarded a one-year contract for more than the Jays can afford – the club can always trade him. Heck, if they could find a taker for Mondesi, they can find one for Delgado.

The bottom line is this:
- Players who are among the best in the league are hard to find. If the Jays let Delgado go, they won't be able to find somebody who can hit like Delgado on the open market. (If they're lucky, they might be able to pick up Richie Sexson. Would you trade Delgado for Sexson? Would you trade Delgado for two Sexsons and a Sexson to be named later?)
-The Jays desperately need power.
- Delgado is a hard worker, a solid citizen, and a consummate professional.
- The Jays would lose goodwill if they let him go.
- He seems to like it here.

(An aside: nowadays, star players seem to be expected to be willing to relocate to a contender during their walk year. This trend has become so prevalent that some GM's have stated that they are not willing to sign Delgado because he refused to waive his no-trade clause. When did this start happening?)
Grade: A+

Chris Gomez
.259 .281 .296
One reason why many managers like veterans is that they're known commodities. For example, you can rely on Chris Gomez to hit about .270 or so – albeit with no power or walks – and play a passable defense at shortstop or anywhere else in the infield. Gomez won't give away games by making nervous rookie mistakes. However, he doesn't really do that much to help a team win.
Grade: C-

Gabe Gross
.226 .314 .306
It's really too early to tell what Gross is going to be able to contribute, as he's going through the same growing pains that Alex Rios went through. Gross has plate discipline, which is a good sign. However, he's going to have to either hit for average or hit for power, or he just won't be able to contribute enough to be a regular outfielder at the major-league level.
Grade: D

Eric Hinske
.204 .287 .330
I have a theory: there are two kinds of hitting slumps. Let's call them pitch recognition slumps, and plate coverage slumps. A pitch recognition slump is mostly mental – the batter isn't able to determine that the incoming pitch is out of the strike zone and is therefore unhittable. I assume, to a certain extent, that pitch recognition is, to a certain extent, an inborn talent – some people can just judge the flight of a pitched ball better than others. But, in players that have this ability, a crisis of confidence can lead to swinging wildly at pitches that a hitter normally takes for strikes. Vernon Wells has shown signs of this problem.

The other kind of slump, a plate coverage slump, occurs when a hitter does all the right things right up to the point at which he swings at a pitch. A hitter in this kind of slump works the count and gets the pitcher to throw a ball right into the middle of his hitting zone, but then doesn't do anything with the pitch when he gets it. I think that Eric Hinske is in the middle of one of those slumps right now, as his walk total is still respectable. I would guess that this kind of slump is due to a mechanical problem with his swing; a few hundred hours at the batting cage and in the video room will probably straighten Hinske out.

But I suppose that we shouldn't be too optimistic. Hinske has never hit for a high average in the minors, so .260 to .270 is probably the best we can hope for. If he can do that, and hit 20 to 25 home runs, he'll be a valuable player, given his other abilities. But he has to improve both his power and his average to do that, and it's hard to do both.
Grade: D+

Orlando Hudson
.346 .381 .551
Went on a tear after being moved into the #2 slot. He's not walking at all, so you have to wonder whether he'll keep this up. And he's been a streaky hitter all season. But, right now, we're looking at a player hitting well over .300 with line-drive power, good speed, and world-class defense. If he can keep this up over an entire season, he'll become an MVP candidate.

Did you know that the O-Dog has a higher on-base percentage than Derek Jeter? At this point, I wouldn't trade Hudson for Jeter – for one thing, the O-Dog can actually range to his left and right to field ground balls. And Hudson's as smart as Jeter is. And that's not even factoring in Jeter's salary commitments, which are larger than the total gross national products of several Third World nations.
Grade: A+

Reed Johnson
.272 .314 .420
Seems to have reached a plateau, settling in at the .260 to .270 range with little in the way of power or walks. On a good team, he'd be a useful fourth or fifth outfielder, as there are a lot of things he can do: he can pinch-hit, pinch-run, and play all three outfield positions. Teams can use a player like that. But he's not good enough to start regularly. I wish it were otherwise; I'm a big Sparky fan, and I enjoy watching him play.
Grade: C+

Frank Menechino
.294 .400 .471
When Hudson got hot, Menechino lost most of his playing time. Played well when he was in the lineup. Can now add “emergency pitcher” to his resume. Still looks like Reed Johnson's gloomy older brother.
Grade: B+

Josh Phelps
1-for-4 (a home run)
At some point, I want to write an article that talks about plate coverage in more detail. Phelps's problem was that his plate coverage was not sufficient: there are certain kinds of strikes that he just can't handle. I can't blame the Jays for trading him away – he's had two years now to prove himself, and he just hasn't done it. Still, you have to wonder whether Phelps is just one adjustment away from stardom. Given the Jays' luck recently, I wouldn't be surprised if somebody on the Cleveland coaching staff, by blind luck or good fortune, finds the missing key that turns Phelps into an effective masher. If this happens, I will be convinced that the Jays have angered the baseball gods in some way or another, and are being punished in return. Maybe it's the turf.
Grade: Gone

Alex Rios
.287 .328 .400
Let's not get too excited: he's still got a long way to go. His pitch recognition isn't that good yet, as he drew only seven walks all month. His batting average is respectable, but contending teams have outfielders who hit at least that well. And he's not hitting home runs yet.

Having said all that, you can see why people are so impressed by him. He's showing doubles power, which usually turns into home run power given time, and he's gunning down baserunners with a strong and accurate arm in right field. I still think he could become the next Dave Winfield. However, if he doesn't step forward, he could become the next DeWayne Wise. Recall that Wise looked confident out there too.
Grade: B-

Vernon Wells
.210 .266 .360
To continue with the theme: V-Dub's problem, in my opinion, is that he never learned plate discipline because he always had excellent plate coverage. If you can whack pitches down around the ankles off the left-field wall, you never need to learn to let such pitches go by. Unfortunately, due to injuries, and possibly due to pressing a bit, Wells is no longer hitting everything thrown at him. It may take him a bit of time to pick up some the skills he's never developed, so the road ahead may be a long one. Unless, of course, he snaps out of his slump and starts hitting everything again. Heck, not everybody needs plate discipline: after all, Vlad doesn't have any.
Grade: D+

Chris Woodward
.203 .262 .254
At this point, I think the Jays need to determine whether Woody can actually be useful before deciding whether to discard him or not. At this point, I don't hold out much hope – even if he can get into a rhythm at the plate and in the field, he'll likely get hurt again. It's that lack of durability that really does him in. If he washes out at short, somebody will likely offer him a job as a utility infielder somewhere: he can play all four infield positions, and has enough power to serve as the number-two or three pinch-hitter off the bench. He's stretched as a shortstop even at the best of times, though, so I can't see him holding a job as a regular. His grand slam was his first home run of the season and his only extra-base hit of the month, and he can be counted on to subtly mess up one play a game in the field.
Grade: F

Gregg Zaun
.250 .353 .361
Slowly turning back into Gregg Zaun, after spending part of the summer disguised as SuperZaun. His on-base percentage is still reasonable, especially for a catcher. I enjoy watching him play, as he is the very model of a world-weary veteran player who has seen it all. Is good enough on defense and at the plate to serve as a #2 catcher behind Quiroz; I'd re-sign him, assuming he wants to come back. (That's always something you have to factor into the Jays' roster moves: does the player actually want to play for a team where the turf is bouncy and painful to slide on, and in a city where the money is all funny colours, many of the writers are cranky, the gridlock is frustrating, the home town fans are sparsely distributed and oh-so-quiet – the Cheer Club notwithstanding - and you have to deal with clearing Customs all the time?)
Grade: B-

Pitching
It's easy to see what the problem was this month: everybody in the bullpen, except for Justin Speier, was awful. And Justin Miller was awful. And Miguel Batista was awful most of the time. And Josh Towers was awful some of the time. And Roy Halladay wasn't there. The staff ERA was 6.13.

Stats are IP/H/BB/SO/ERA, and once again are from ESPN's web site.

Miguel Batista
34.2 44 18 11 6.49
His statistics scream fatigue: he fanned only 11 batters in 34.2 innings in August, as opposed to 30 in 38.1 innings in May and 21 in 37.1 innings in June. It's worth remembering that he has never pitched 200 innings in a season; before this year, he's always spent at least part of the season in the bullpen. Some of his struggles may be a statistical illusion resulting from having to face better-hitting teams more often this month – but, if I were in the Jays' front office, I'd send him for a battery of tests right now. The team is committed to him for the next two years; at this point, it wouldn't hurt to shut him down for the season, if necessary, and save him for 2005.
Grade: D+

David Bush
29.2 36 6 26 3.94
It's hard to believe that Bush is a raw rookie; he's pitching like a major-league veteran. He changes speeds, he throws lots of interesting bending pitches, and he can pop a fastball when needed. His K/IP ratio even went up. Basically, he's Josh Towers with much better stuff. At this point, you can just pencil him in every fifth day and not worry about him. Cursed by a lack of run support.
Grade: A-

Vinnie Chulk
12 19 8 11 9.00
Like Frasor, the Vincinerator's K/IP ratio is still good, so he hasn't lost his stuff; they're just hitting it more often. I suppose we should recall that Chulk wasn't rated as a prospect before this year, so he's already accomplished more than we should realistically expect. Needs some TLC and some outings against teams with payrolls in the tens of millions rather than the hundreds of millions of dollars.
Grade: D-

Sean Douglass
17 16 14 14 7.41
His numbers suggest that he possesses a collection of unguided missiles. But it's easier to teach somebody with good stuff to throw strikes than it is to teach a control pitcher to throw harder. At this point, I'd consider putting him in the rotation in September, to see what he can do in an extended audition. Got burned at least once by the plate umpire's squeezing the strike zone on him.
Grade: F

Bob File
1 1 0 1 0.00
Pitched an inning at the end of the month, and got everybody out. The Jays desperately need somebody who can get them out in the sixth, seventh and eighth (not to mention the first through fifth); if File shows that he can do this, he can lock up a job for himself.
Grade: Incomplete

Jason Frasor
11.2 20 11 11 9.26
I'm just speculating, but I think the problem here is that he isn't used to occasional failure yet. Closers need to be resilient enough to survive a bad outing and the realization that their efforts have singlehandedly turned a W into an L; some pitchers with closer stuff can't cope with the mental strain. (Cliff Politte, for example, seemed to buckle under the pressure.) John Gibbons appears to be a very positive person, and he might be able to help Frasor adjust to the strains of his job. Frasor's K/IP ratio is still good, which indicates that he hasn't lost his stuff.
Grade: C

Kevin Frederick
16.2 22 12 11 8.10
I've heard people say nice things about him, but they sure don't show up in his numbers. People who complained about Terry Adams are now seeing what the alternatives are. He may do better when he's found his sea legs.
Grade: F

Roy Halladay
N/A
Just reminding you that he still exists. At this point, I'd let him rest for the rest of the season. What's the point of bringing him back now?
Grade: MIA

Kerry Ligtenberg
17.1 24 8 13 7.79
On yesterday's pre-game show, John Gibbons gave Ligtenberg credit for always being willing to take the ball. Perhaps he should stop being so willing: there's no point in going out there when you're going to give up four hits, three walks and two home runs while retiring nobody. Pitches well some of the time, which is obscured by his semi-regular total meltdowns. One of the things the Jays can do in September is give Ligtenberg regular work in pressure situations; they need to know whether to cut him loose in the off-season, and right now the jury is still out (though they're rather close to an unfavourable verdict, I would think). By the way, the Jays have a presidential pitching staff: they can bring in Kerry to relieve Bush.
Grade: F

Ted Lilly
41 30 21 39 3.95
I suspect that the effects of his 126-pitch shutout will be felt for some time, but you can't blame the Jays for leaving him in there. When Ted is old and gray, he'll remember having shut out the Red Sox. Pitching eight shutout innings against the Red Sox just isn't the same. Had his usual month: some good outings, and some outings in which he can't find the range. K/IP good even if you don't include that one dominating start against Boston.
Grade: B+

Dave Maurer
1.1 6 5 1 54.00
Looked hopelessly lost out there. Perhaps he's learned something, and may use these harsh lessons to improve his pitching in the future. But I somehow suspect that this is the last we will ever see of him. Makes Juan Acevedo look like Mariano Rivera.
Grade: F-, or perhaps G

Justin Miller
22.2 31 19 6 7.15
Gave up 19 walks and struck out only 6 in 22.2 innings. Is the polar opposite of Josh Towers: Miller has great stuff, but right now has no idea where it's going. If you could combine Towers' brain and Miller's body, you'd have an ace starter. (And if ifs and buts were candied nuts, we'd all have a very merry Christmas.) Even if Miller finds that lost chord, he'll probably injure himself again. At this point, I don't think the Jays can expect anything from him.
Grade: F

Justin Speier
15 11 7 13 1.80
The Last Man Standing in the bullpen; right now, he seems to be the only reliever who can actually get people out. Is slowly being eased back into the closer spot. All his August numbers were very good; did you know that his ERA was over five runs lower than that of any other Jays reliever? When was the last time you saw a gap that large? Gibbons will have to resist the impulse to overuse him; after all, he's been hurt once this year already.
Grade: A

Josh Towers
32 45 5 12 5.63
As you probably know by now, Toronto is experiencing its coolest summer since 1992, and I'm beginning to think that this is why Towers was doing so well earlier this year. Balls tend to travel farther and faster in hot weather, and, for a while, Josh wasn't giving up home runs at his usual taterrific rate. Then, he faced the Red Sox on a humid day, and got beaten like a gong. He's the same pitcher he always has been: marginal stuff, terrific control, pitches well when he has everything together, gets absolutely clobbered when he does not. He tends to run out of gas in about the sixth inning, which strains the bullpen somewhat. And the bullpen does not need to be strained. I still rate him as no more than a fourth starter at best, and preferably a fifth. But every team needs a guy like this.
Grade: C

Overall
The Jays have two short-term and two long-term problems right now. The short-term problems:

- Some of the club's best hitters are underperforming, especially Wells and Hinske. (Naturally, by coincidence, these are the two players signed to long-term contracts. J.P. probably has a standing order with his pharmacist for antacid tablets.)
- The bullpen has gone south (except for Speier).

These problems will sort themselves out; Wells and Hinske aren't bad ballplayers, and either the bullpen will get better or it will be gone. But the long-term problems are harder to solve:

- It's been mentioned often enough, but the Jays have a smaller payroll than the Yankees and the Red Sox. And that's not likely to change any time soon. Will the Jays be forced to go with Crozier at first base next year?
- To be successful, you have to not only be smart, but lucky. And the Jays have had nothing but bad luck for quite some time now.

In a strange way, the Blue Jays are an accurate reflection of the city in which they live. The city, like the Jays, is underfunded: the streets are full of potholes, and many of the buses are twenty years old. And, just as the Jays' plight is met with indifference outside the Jays' fan base, nobody outside Toronto really cares about its problems. (As any Torontonian will tell you, virtually everybody in Canada hates Toronto, and is more than happy to force the city to fend for itself, making it pay for virtually everything out of its property taxes. But that's a topic beyond the scope of this discussion.)

Blue Jays monthly report card for August 2004 | 51 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
_Tyler - Wednesday, September 01 2004 @ 08:38 AM EDT (#37957) #
Excellent analysis Dave. I have to tell you though, that as far as facilities, roads and what not, Toronto does't have it nearly as bad as everyone in Toronto thinks. Try heading out to the oil producing parts of the country, where the roads are all destroyed by all of the heavy equipment travelling on them, and there are no property taxes at all generated by the activity, as it all occurs outside of city limits. Not to mention the atrocious access to services. Those poor folks live in the city reflecting baseball equivalent of Arizona.

Bush certainly has been impressive. I saw him pitch earlier this year in Syracuse, and he was a ton of fun to watch. I'm hoping he gets some starts against teams that have already faced him in September, so we can see how looks the second time around. He's had two of those games so far, one good, and one against Tampa Bay where he got lit up.
Coach - Wednesday, September 01 2004 @ 09:01 AM EDT (#37958) #
As always, Dave, a delight to read. Those of us who live downtown scoff at potholes, but when a large part of Bloor W. disappeared the other day, even the SUVs had to find another route.

Batista wasn't merely fatigued, he was hurt. He's a team-first guy and no whiner, so he took the ball every fifth day despite a sore back and assorted other minor aches. My guess is that if Doc was available, Miguel might have skipped at least one turn, but he felt that the club had a better chance with him at 85% than with Sean Douglass. There was a lot more life on his fastball in his last start, so he may be feeling better, and it's premature to suggest shutting him down unless the back pain recurs.

Your entire Delgado comment is great. I wonder if anyone (Mr. Godfrey?) can convince the Rogers beancounters that they should have a "Carlos contingency fund" in case he accepts arbitration. You're absolutely right; it's probably two extra draft picks, or a nice package in a midseason trade.

I hope you mentioned Wise only because he has the same initials as Winfield. Rios is already much better than DeWayne ever was.

Will the Jays be forced to go with Crozier at first base next year?

No. There are several FA options. I keep hoping that they will get Troy Glaus on a one-year deal and move him across the diamond. The big fella needs a healthy, productive season somewhere to get a lucrative long-term contract, and while the Angels have deep pockets, they also have outstanding Triple-A corner men, so I think they will wave goodbye to both Troys -- Percival and Glaus. I have no interest in an aging, expensive closer, however.

Kevin Millar is another good fit, if he's willing to cowboy up into a foreign country. At least he wouldn't have to learn Japanese here. I'd also like to see Matt Stairs in the 1B/DH mix; he wouldn't need an OF glove often, but he can still hit RH pitching and he's always thrived in SkyDome.

Finally, I agree with your assessments of Hinske, Wells and the departed Phelps -- none of them are as bad as they look when mired in a slump, and all will have days (in some cases, weeks) when they are nearly impossible to get out. The two that are still here also provide some defence and can hit righthanders, so I'm willing to be patient when they get out of sync, and looking forward to three more years of the hot streaks.
_dp - Wednesday, September 01 2004 @ 09:03 AM EDT (#37959) #
Dave-

Would you sign Hudson to a long-term Wells/Hinske type deal this offseason?
_Marc - Wednesday, September 01 2004 @ 09:09 AM EDT (#37960) #
There is no way that Glaus signs a one year deal. That said, I would offer him a two or three year deal with a solid guaranteed amount and lots of incentives ($15-$19 million).
_dp - Wednesday, September 01 2004 @ 09:17 AM EDT (#37961) #
I keep hoping that they will get Troy Glaus on a one-year deal and move him across the diamond.

Glaus is pretty good at 3B, right? I'd think if they got him, they'd keep him there, send Hinske to 1B, where it's easier to find a cheap backup for him in case he has another 2004. Until this year, 3B was one of the tougher spots to find offense at.
_sweat - Wednesday, September 01 2004 @ 09:18 AM EDT (#37962) #
I continue to be amazed at how bad Hinske has been getting, when wells is playing almost as poorly. Wells is a guy who has suffered greatly without Carlos protecting him. Where he used to get a lot of strikes because people feared putting another guy on, there were long periods of time where pitchers could walk wells with no punishment. Wells has taught these pitchers he will swing anyway, and until he draws a few walks, he will continue to get pitched around.
_Tyler - Wednesday, September 01 2004 @ 09:18 AM EDT (#37963) #
As for Hinske/Wells because they have weeks where they are nearly impossible to get out...I don't know. I can accept that Wells is down this year from last year because of his injuries, but I think that in time, we'll see him producing at a higher level, and that he'll be back as a top 4-5 CF in the league, which seems fine to me with the money being paid to him. I still think Wells has had a decent season, all things considered.

With Hinske though, it seems that for the Jays to succeed with him being an incredibly streaky/slumpy hitter, you're going to be in a position where you're relying on his streaks to happen when the team is sagging, and his slumps when other guys have picked up the slack. Over the long haul, this doesn't seem like a sound strategy.
_dp - Wednesday, September 01 2004 @ 09:27 AM EDT (#37964) #
With Hinske though, it seems that for the Jays to succeed with him being an incredibly streaky/slumpy hitter, you're going to be in a position where you're relying on his streaks to happen when the team is sagging, and his slumps when other guys have picked up the slack.

When he's your 7 or 8 hitter, that strategy works fine. But when he's hitting fifth and you've got very little power coming from elsewhere in the lineup, you've got problems.

The Jays are very weird right now- it seems like they've got a bunch of #1-2 hitters, with VW and Carlos the only guys really suited for the 3-5 slots. Next year the outlook doesn't change much unless Rios develops power. If Cat comes back, he, Rios, Hudson, Hinske, Adams (if he takes over at SS), and Gross (because he walks even when he's slumping) all seem like #1-#2 hitters. Gross and Rios could both develop into prototypical #5 guys, but they aren't there now and probably won't be right away in '05.
_Tyler - Wednesday, September 01 2004 @ 09:33 AM EDT (#37965) #
[i]When he's your 7 or 8 hitter, that strategy works fine. But when he's hitting fifth and you've got very little power coming from elsewhere in the lineup, you've got problems.[/i]

Absolutely. The other way you've got problems is if you've committed a significant percentage of your resources to a guy, who is best suited your 7/8 hitter. It also seems to me, and I could be wrong, that if you're not getting the power from your corner guys, you'll need more elsewhere.
Coach - Wednesday, September 01 2004 @ 09:35 AM EDT (#37966) #
dp, Glaus tore his rotator cuff. It's unlikely he can ever be as effective at third as he once was. He's also had problems recently (i.e., before the shoulder shut him down) with a wrist, a knee, a hammy and his back.

Marc, because of the preceding paragraph, I wouldn't offer him more than a year. If he can get $15 million elsewhere, he should take it. From the player's perspective, one great comeback season followed by free agency again would maximize his earnings, so I don't see why he'd lock into three years at his currently reduced market value.

Again, signing Glaus isn't a prediction on my part, and I would never presume to give J.P. advice, it's merely a fan's wish. I also hope for peace on earth and a seven-figure inheritance, but am not holding my breath.
Pistol - Wednesday, September 01 2004 @ 09:42 AM EDT (#37967) #
Nice job Dave.

His summer slump means that his perceived value is lower than his actual value; there are probably GM's out there that haven't noticed that he's back at the top of his game. And there's that whole silly God Bless America thing; GM's that are hard-core Bushies probably think that Carlos is a commie or something.

I even think that the Jays can risk offering him arbitration. For one thing, this gives the Jays more time to negotiate with him. And, if Baltimore or Tampa Bay or somebody offers him huge money, the Jays will get more precious draft picks. And even if the worst case scenario comes true – he accepts arbitration, and is awarded a one-year contract for more than the Jays can afford – the club can always trade him. Heck, if they could find a taker for Mondesi, they can find one for Delgado.


I disagree with a few things here:

* Maybe I’m being naïve here, but I don’t believe any team in the 21st century looking to acquire a player is just going to look at the stats on the back of a baseball card and make a decision based off of that. There’s probably teams that aren’t aware of and/or don’t use advanced stats of some sort (VORP, GPA, FIP, etc..), but I can’t imagine a front office that doesn’t slice and dice the basic stats of a player (ave/obp/slug) they’re considering acquiring. It’s pretty easy to do, just go to ESPN.com and it’s all at your fingertips. Now, they might not make good decisions based off of that information, but I have a very hard time believe that they’re unaware of them.

If teams don’t line up to offer Delgado actual value it’s more likely that they’re worried about his age and health than that he’s a ‘.240 hitter’ this year.

* I don’t believe the whole God Bless America thing is a factor for any team (well, maybe the Yankees, but they aren’t signing him). No one cares. There’s a substantial amount of Americans that don’t support the current Iraq situation.

* There’s no way the team will, or should, offer Delgado arbitration (unless he was signed prior to the deadline like Ibanez or Tucker this year). The minimum he would get if he accepted is $15 million (80% of this year’s salary), and I certainly could be wrong but I’m not aware of cases where players have gone to arbitration and ended up getting less than what they made the year before. The Jays will almost assuredly have better alternatives than that in the offseason.

If you offer arbitration you have to assume he'll accept. He wouldn't waive the no trade clause so he's certainlty willing to play here and he's not going to get any offers resembling what he'll get next year. If he was 27 and you knew he'd get a 5-6 year offer from anothet team maybe you could risk it then, but I don't see anyone going over 3 years on Delgado. If you were Delgado would you take 3 years and $30 million, or 1 year at $18.5 million in a place you like?

If he does accept arbitration and returns to the team and then you flip him for prospects at mid year what have you done? You've paid $8-10 million for a couple prospects. That doesn't seem to be a good use of money.

* To say you can trade Delgado if he accepted arbitration by comparing it to Mondesi being traded ignores the drastic changes in baseball over that time period. Plus Mondesi was traded to a Yankees when Steinbrenner was being irrational because of a utility infielder botching flyballs in RF one game.
Pistol - Wednesday, September 01 2004 @ 09:50 AM EDT (#37968) #
Whoops, *certainly* I know to proofread better.

To clear up my seemingly contradictory last two points, I don't believe you could trade Delgado next year at a high salary without eating a large chunk of it.

I realize the Jays ate some of Mondesi's contract, but it wasn't nearly as much as they should have, or probably were willing to eat. They just took advantage of an team in an irrational moment in a much more irrational time.
_Moffatt - Wednesday, September 01 2004 @ 09:55 AM EDT (#37969) #
RE: Delgado. You can't just trade Delgado next year as he'll be a 5-and-10 player and thus can veto any trade.

The roundup will be up in around 20 minutes. Sorry for the delay.
_Tyler - Wednesday, September 01 2004 @ 10:04 AM EDT (#37970) #
Excellent point about his 5 and 10 rights Moffat. I'd completely forgotten that.

The Jays certainly have been a hard luck team this year, and having to make the decision over whether to go to arbitration on a contract signed during the height of the crazy days is just another tough deal.
_Geoff - Wednesday, September 01 2004 @ 10:09 AM EDT (#37971) #
In my opinion, if J.P. had a serious intention of bringing back Delgado, he'd be signed by now...or there would at least be some overtures in that regard. I believe that J.P. feels (and his counterparts in OAK, BOS, LA to a certain extent) that a balanced offense is more effective and more affordable than an offense built around stars and subs. We've for sure had some offensive nothings this year, but they would generally be seen as surprise nothings. It seems as if the market skyrockets exponentially after a player moves past the .800 OPS mark. I think J.P. would, in his dream world employ 9 hitters who hit around an .800 OPS than 9 guys who average out to that amount but with much more of a variance.
_Moffatt - Wednesday, September 01 2004 @ 10:14 AM EDT (#37972) #
The Jays certainly have been a hard luck team this year, and having to make the decision over whether to go to arbitration on a contract signed during the height of the crazy days is just another tough deal.

It's not really a tough decision at all. You absoulutely, positively cannot offer Delgado arbitration. Period. Unless you're happy spending $20 of your $50 million payroll on one player.
_MatO - Wednesday, September 01 2004 @ 10:15 AM EDT (#37973) #
I don't think JP knows what the budget is going to be yet which prevents any meaningful discussions with Delgado. If, as rumoured, the budget goes to $53M, then I think realistically you can offer Delgado $10M a season. If, as also rumoured, it goes to $48M, then I think Delgado is as good as gone.
Coach - Wednesday, September 01 2004 @ 10:16 AM EDT (#37974) #
he'll be a 5-and-10 player and thus can veto any trade

Brain cramp on my part; a little more coffee might help. I was thinking that if he was traded in May or June, the inherent goodwill of bringing him back would be worth a few million, and he would fetch a pretty good package of talent. But there's no way they should risk having to pay him another $18 million only to be painted into the same corner a year from now.

I became a huge Delgado fan when I lived in Florida and he was a 20-year-old catcher, hitting balls impossibly far out of parks in the FSL. I didn't know then what a great person he is, so I've come to admire him even more. It really saddens me to admit this will be his final month in Toronto.
_Tyler - Wednesday, September 01 2004 @ 10:17 AM EDT (#37975) #
Didn't mean that it was a tough decision, just that it was tough coming on the heels of this year. If the contract had been up last year, JP can offer Carlos arbitration, and then is still able to move him even if he accepts it. Odds are, Delgado wouldn't have accepted, as he'd have been able to get a longer guaranteed term somewhere else.
Dave Till - Wednesday, September 01 2004 @ 10:59 AM EDT (#37976) #
Good point about Delgado becoming a 10-and-5 player next year; that limits J.P.'s options.

While I don't realistically think that the Jays can sign Delgado - somebody will throw a lot of money at him - I wouldn't read too much into his not being offered a contract yet. Not many teams re-sign players in mid-season.

Would he be awarded $18 million in arbitration? I suppose he would, even in a declining market.

The worst part of all of this is that Baltimore and Tampa Bay are likely to be leading suitors in the offseason. Not only is Delgado likely to leave, but he'll probably go to a team in the same division. Sigh. When the long-awaited Pot Of Gold finally appears, we will have paid our dues waiting for it, that's for sure.

Would you sign Hudson to a long-term Wells/Hinske type deal this offseason?

Yes, absolutely, and for the same reason Wells and Hinske are signed: he has a broad range of skills, has a good work ethic, and is young enough to improve.

Even when Wells and Hinske are slumping, they both do something to help a team, as they can always field well and run well.
_sweat - Wednesday, September 01 2004 @ 11:23 AM EDT (#37977) #
I think that two things have been proven by the jays over the course of this season. One, quality relief pitching is hard to come by, and if you dont have some, you will lose a lot of games for your starters. Two, this team is full of hitters that need a player like Carlos too be the main focus of the opposing pitchers. The Jays need that bat in the middle of the lineup to take the presure off. We dont need to wonder what happens to our team post Carlos. We already know as we have seen it most of this year.
Mike D - Wednesday, September 01 2004 @ 11:29 AM EDT (#37978) #
they can bring in Kerry to relieve Bush

The Jays are the only entity for whom this is a really bad idea.
_Ducey - Wednesday, September 01 2004 @ 11:34 AM EDT (#37979) #
Dave, you think Tampa Bay is going to shell out $10+ million a year for Delgado? No way. They would have to pay a bonus for him to go there. They had 8,500 people at the game last night and are likely going to be trying out a bunch of rookies again next year.
_Kevin Pataky - Wednesday, September 01 2004 @ 11:38 AM EDT (#37980) #
Since when was Alexis Rios' name shortened to Alex? He was never Alex in all of his Minor League career. I know him well and still respectfully call him Alexis. I know that's what he prefers...
_MatO - Wednesday, September 01 2004 @ 11:45 AM EDT (#37981) #
Kevin. I think there were reports out of spring training that he preferred to be called Alex. I'm very confused now. I think Alexis Rios flows better than Alex Rios.
robertdudek - Wednesday, September 01 2004 @ 11:54 AM EDT (#37982) #
We've all heard that he prefers to be called Alex.
_Kevin Pataky - Wednesday, September 01 2004 @ 11:55 AM EDT (#37983) #
I think its the media juggernaut that finds it easier to say Alex than Alexis. Its funny how when I went to Yankee Stadium back on 8/9 and everyone was yelling to him Alex, Alex, Alex and he was in his zone on the field before the game. But when my son and I called to him (with his back to us) by saying "Alexis", he turned right around, came over gave hugs took pictures and signed some stuff.
_MatO - Wednesday, September 01 2004 @ 11:58 AM EDT (#37984) #
To support Coach's point about Batista, I recall there was a little blurb in the Star a couple of weeks ago about how Batista was pitching through some physical problems. I'd be tempted to shut him down for a start or two.
robertdudek - Wednesday, September 01 2004 @ 12:12 PM EDT (#37985) #
I'm not saying you're wrong Kevin, it's just that that's what we've heard from media reports from the day he arrived in Toronto.
_Mylegacy - Wednesday, September 01 2004 @ 12:21 PM EDT (#37986) #
http://www.immune26.tv
September in the YFH (Year From Hell) time to bring up the kids AND why not try something really different... O'Dog has more range than the Bush spread in Crawford Texas, other than a healthy Alomar I've never seen his like...TRY THE KID AT SS...what's to lose?

The knock on Adams is that while he has great range he doesn't have the arm of a SS...lets find out if O'Dog has. A SS and a 2nd bagger BOTH with terrific range, it might be a match made in Heaven.
_sweat - Wednesday, September 01 2004 @ 12:25 PM EDT (#37987) #
Mylegacy, thats a great idea, provided they didnt try this already in the minor leagues. The jays have nothing to lose by giving him a couple of games at shortstop. I would also like to see JP talk to Carlos about his contract ASAP. I think the Jays were trying to show Carlos they wanted him around by not pushing the trade thing, and by not pushing him through waivers. Even if Carlos still wants to put off contract talks, it will show him how much the jays want him around. Guarenteeing him 95% of 1b starts wouldnt hurt either.
_Dan - Wednesday, September 01 2004 @ 12:27 PM EDT (#37988) #
Is it possible we will get any compensation for Delgado if we lose him to FA. I know we got a sandwich pick last yr for Escobar which turned out pretty good considering the Jays got the pitcher they wanted. I don't know what the scale is for whether you get a 1,2,3rd rnd picks. Any insight on this?
_Kevin Pataky - Wednesday, September 01 2004 @ 12:29 PM EDT (#37989) #
Media Reports - Yes. And I am sure Jim Hunter absolutely loved the name Charlie Finley created and fed to the Press. Hence the birth of Catfish Hunter...
_sweat - Wednesday, September 01 2004 @ 12:35 PM EDT (#37990) #
Dan, to get compensation picks, the Jays would have to offer arbitration. Which they wont risk due to the salary Carlos COULD get. This is what happened with the expos and vlad last year.
_Nigel - Wednesday, September 01 2004 @ 12:35 PM EDT (#37991) #
O-Dog doesn't have the arm to play SS. Hudson played 3rd coming through the minors until Syracuse (and even played 3rd there to some extent). The main reason he was moved (in addition to not having the power associated with a prototypical corner infielder) was his arm strength.

Philosophically, given the number of problem areas the Jays have, I'm opposed to messing with one of the few areas that is working. I'd leave O-dog right where he is. Finding above average second baseman isn't easy - witness the Jays with Bush, Lawrence, et al. in the Alomar to O-dog years.
_MatO - Wednesday, September 01 2004 @ 12:46 PM EDT (#37992) #
This is an unlikely scenario but if Delgado were to sign with another team before the Jays had to offer arbitration then the Jays would get compensation picks. Delgado is a FA after the WS and the Jays have to offer compensation sometime in December, so that if Delgado were to sign with another team during that period the Jays would get compensation.
_Tyler - Wednesday, September 01 2004 @ 01:25 PM EDT (#37993) #
I'm a huge NHL fan. Every year, the day before free agency starts, you see teams with big budgets trade their unrestricted free agents to the Edmonton Oilers or Calgary Flames of the world so as to take advantage of a loophole giving lower salary teams draft pick compensation. The team trading the player will then get a pick a round or two later from the team receiving compensation.

What's to stop the Jays from offering Delgado arbitration, after making a $250K deal or so to have him not accept the offer? Seems win-win to me. Carlos gets $250K, and the Jays scoop a couple prospects cheap.
_Moffatt - Wednesday, September 01 2004 @ 01:26 PM EDT (#37994) #
What's to stop the Jays from offering Delgado arbitration, after making a $250K deal or so to have him not accept the offer? Seems win-win to me. Carlos gets $250K, and the Jays scoop a couple prospects cheap.

Carlos also loses some bargaining power on the free agent market since now teams that want him have to give up draft picks.

It's far from win-win. It's a no-brainer loss for Carlos.
robertdudek - Wednesday, September 01 2004 @ 01:29 PM EDT (#37995) #
I believe that paying a player money to not accept arbitration is illegal under MLB rules.
_Tyler - Wednesday, September 01 2004 @ 02:19 PM EDT (#37996) #
The NHL should hire some of these people making the MLB rules to review their new CBA, which will no doubt be as littered with loopholes as the last one was.

Fair point in regards to bargaining power Moffat, although the loss of draft picks doesn't seem to concern MLB clubs, at least those that would be in the running for Delgado, as much as it does NHL clubs. Given that it would be impossible to prove that it wouldn't hurt his bargaining power though, I suppose his agent would advise him not to do it.
_Rich - Wednesday, September 01 2004 @ 02:48 PM EDT (#37997) #
How low of an offer could Carlos realistically accept if he's non-tendered? Surely the players' union would cause a huge stink if he took a 50% pay cut or more, no? Someone please tell me it's not necessarily so.
_sweat - Wednesday, September 01 2004 @ 02:54 PM EDT (#37998) #
e______ l_____ took a huge paycut, last year he played for the leaguye minimum with some bonuses, after make 6M with the Jays. Please feel free to call me a girly man if I am wrong, as I am pulling this out of my somewhat crazy memory.
robertdudek - Wednesday, September 01 2004 @ 03:01 PM EDT (#37999) #
Carlos can't be non-tendered. If he hasn't signed an extention with the Jays by the end of the World Series, he has somthing like 10-15 days to declare himself a free-agent (don't remember the exact number of days). Non-tendering only applies to players who do not yet have 6.0 years of major league service time.

Once he's a free agent he can negotiate with any team, or accept arbitration (by a certain deadline) if it is offered.
_Marc - Wednesday, September 01 2004 @ 03:19 PM EDT (#38000) #
If the Jays were to sign Carlos before the deadline to offer arbitration they could give him as big of a pay cut as he would be willing to accept. But once (if) they offer arbitration he can only take a 20 per cent cut (about $3.4 million).
_Rich - Wednesday, September 01 2004 @ 03:52 PM EDT (#38001) #
Sorry for the incorrect use of "non-tender". My question is, how much of a paycut would be accepted by a) Carlos and b) the union.
Pistol - Wednesday, September 01 2004 @ 03:57 PM EDT (#38002) #
This is an unlikely scenario but if Delgado were to sign with another team before the Jays had to offer arbitration then the Jays would get compensation picks

It's possible if the demand is there.

And the Giants intentionally gave up their draft picks because they decided the money spend on a draft pick was better spend on current ML players (Michael Tucker).
_Four Seamer - Wednesday, September 01 2004 @ 04:01 PM EDT (#38003) #
My question is, how much of a paycut would be accepted by a) Carlos and b) the union.

The better question is how much grief Carlos is prepared to take from the union. They can yelp and moan and generally make life difficult for him, but otherwise they have no right to interfere with Delgado's freedom to contract (within the boundaries of the CBA, of course).

I understand from conversations with a prominent player agent in another sport that when a player signs a deal with a "hometown discount", they will sometimes call the agent up on the carpet and chew him out, but that's the extent of their authority over the matter. Carlos is a big boy, and so is his agent. However he chooses to maximize his happiness, I'm sure he can put up with whatever complaints a new contract might engender.
_MatO - Wednesday, September 01 2004 @ 04:08 PM EDT (#38004) #
Based upon the market of the last 2 years ie.Thome,Vlad and Sheffield I would think that Delgado can expect $12M max on his next deal. I'm not saying he will get that much but that's the most he should get if some team goes out on a limb.
Pistol - Wednesday, September 01 2004 @ 04:26 PM EDT (#38005) #
I understand from conversations with a prominent player agent in another sport that when a player signs a deal with a "hometown discount", they will sometimes call the agent up on the carpet and chew him out, but that's the extent of their authority over the matter.

I've heard Tony Gywnn say on the radio that the union did that to him one of the times he re-signed with the Padres.
Pistol - Wednesday, September 01 2004 @ 04:28 PM EDT (#38006) #
Except that Gwynn said they called him personally (perhaps the agent too).
_Four Seamer - Wednesday, September 01 2004 @ 04:47 PM EDT (#38007) #
Except that Gwynn said they called him personally (perhaps the agent too).

Given the militancy of the MLBPA compared to the unions in the other professional sports, I've no doubt they'd be more likely to give the player an earful, as well as the agent. But they can do no more than try and bully the player into not accepting the deal before it's signed, and once it's signed, they can bully all they want, but without result. If Carlos can handle being booed by Yankee fans over God Bless America, I'm sure he can put up with the union breathing down his neck over settling for whatever makes him happy.
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