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how the darkness doubled

I recall
lightning struck itself.

I was listening
listening to the rain

I was hearing
hearing something else.

No game yesterday due to weather.

  1. Dr. Prison Fence (along with his assistant Nurse Ratchet) gives us details about the rainout in "Blue Jays-Orioles rained out:

      At 6:50 p.m. ET, approximately 15 minutes before it was supposed to start, the Orioles announced an alternative. The game would be rescheduled for Wednesday at 3:05 p.m., setting up a double-dip. Ted Lilly and Gustavo Chacin will pitch for Toronto, and the O's will counter with Bruce Chen and Rick Bauer.


  2. David Ginsburg's take on the rainout:

      Bruce Chen will pitch for Baltimore in the opener Wednesday, and Bauer will get his first start since August 2002 in the nightcap.

      It's been a dreadful season for Bauer, who has bounced back and forth between Baltimore and triple-A Ottawa and spent time on the disabled list with a sore right elbow. After being sent to the minors a second time on July 7, the right-hander ripped the organization, then issued an apology before reporting to Ottawa.


  3. Fordin Notes on Brandon League and the rainout:

      Camden Yards has a state-of-the-art drainage system, which helped keep hope alive for several hours. Gibbons referenced that system before the game was called, saying that it was tough to tell what would happen.

      "As long as the infield's dry -- they don't care what the outfield looks like in most places," he said. "That's a pretty good reason to appreciate a dome, huh?"

      Actually, domes aren't infallible either. The Jays had to cancel a game last week in Tampa Bay, beating the hurricane that seemed to be bearing down on them.

      They've only had three rainouts this year, and Wednesday's double-dip will be the team's second this season. The other one came in Chicago, and the Jays split that day down the middle.


  4. In "Halladay wants to go full out" Mike Ganter discusses Roy Halladay's upcoming start:

      The reigning AL Cy Young Award winner knows the Jays are acting in Halladay's best interests by imposing a pitch count.

      Halladay, whose final start is scheduled for Saturday at the SkyDome against the New York Yankees, says the limits are unnecessary.

      In short, he wants the kid gloves off in order to go out and pitch the way he knows best. And that means full out without worrying about retiring hitters in as few pitches as possible.


  5. Mark Zwolinski discusses the managerial situation in "Gibbons draws praise of GM:

      Jays interim manager John Gibbons is all but a lock to have that status changed to full-time for next season.

      Gibbons, who took over the managerial reins from Carlos Tosca Aug.6, will likely receive the news within a week after the Jays wrap up their season this Sunday.

      "I think he's done a good job. You look at the example of the way he used the bullpen (in the Jays' 4-1 win over Baltimore Monday night) ... he had it lined up right," Toronto general manager J.P. Ricciardi said.

      "I think the attitude in the clubhouse is good, too. The players know they have someone pulling for them in the manager's office."

    How would the Bauxites feel if the job was given to Gibbons?

  6. Today's Games in Baltimore:
    • Game 1 - 3:05PM: LHP Ted Lilly (12-10, 3.92 ERA) vs. LHP Bruce Chen (1-1, 3.26 ERA)
    • Game 2 - 7:05PM: LHP Gustavo Chacin (1-0, 3.86 ERA) vs. RHP Rick Bauer (1-1, 5.36 ERA)
    More details in the games preview.
Jays Roundup - I remember | 123 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
_coliver - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 07:40 AM EDT (#30389) #
And... Gibbons can throw batting practice! LOL. Seriously, give him the opportunity next year.
_Eric - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 08:06 AM EDT (#30390) #
The Jays have two games on the marquee today and if they don't win at least one of them it'll have me howling at the moon. There'll be much baseball on my television today.
Pistol - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 08:34 AM EDT (#30391) #
It's expected that at least two coaches from the current five-man staff will be let go when the season ends.

The way this line is written makes it seem like this is going to happen, but it didn't say who the two would be. Anyone have an idea?
Dave Till - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 08:36 AM EDT (#30392) #
At this point, bringing in another manager would just impose chaos, especially since a new guy would want his own coaches. Gibbons seems to be an upbeat sort of person, which is just what you want when a team is persistently snake-bit.
_dp - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 08:47 AM EDT (#30393) #
For those of you who think the Toronto media don't have enough patience with JP, the Mets just effectively fired Jim Duquette, replacing him with Omar Minaya. I seriously thought this was a joke, but no...

Duke has been GM for a bit over a year, part of that in an interim capacity. For every move he made that I really liked, he made 2 that frustrated me. But it isn't clear who had power in that organization, so it's tough to tell where you assign blame for bad moves.

That franchise is a mess. So much front-line talent in the minors before 2004...
_Jordan - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 08:52 AM EDT (#30394) #
...then issued an apology before reporting to Ottawa.

Many a demoted foreign ambassador has followed this exact career path.

It's expected that at least two coaches from the current five-man staff will be let go when the season ends.

If I had to irresponsibly speculate ... Joe Breeden and Gil Patterson. I'd also suggest that Mike Barnett rent, not buy. Really, I see only Butterfield as a lock to return.

Gibbons is a fine choice as far as I'm concerned. Like Tosca, he's a low-risk, low-cost hiring for a team that doesn't need a name manager. I think he has more upside than we've yet seen.

Mike, I don't know today's song, but if the subject line is a reference to the exiting Expos (Je me souviens), I am way impressed.
_Magpie - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 08:53 AM EDT (#30395) #
I could be showing my age. I might be watching too much television. There was Tom Verlaine's name on the marquee, under a big full moon.

You punks are all too young to remember, but I was a punk before you were a punk...

Gammons has a good take on the Mets mess. COMN
_Magpie - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 08:58 AM EDT (#30396) #
OK, I messed up the Gammons link.

It should be:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/gammons/story?id=1889591
Joe - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 09:00 AM EDT (#30397) #
http://me.woot.net
Magpie, you just put it in the e-mail box.

You can click on this sentence to go to Magpie's Gammons link.
_Magpie - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 09:01 AM EDT (#30398) #
I gotta go for several hours, but when I return I'm expecting my very first cuttlefish.

It'll be a banner day in the household, I promise.
_Eric - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 09:12 AM EDT (#30399) #
I gotta go for several hours, but when I return I'm expecting my very first cuttlefish.

Magpie may want to have a look at my first post before getting carried away.
Mike Green - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 09:14 AM EDT (#30400) #
Eric should get the cuttlefish, but Magpie definitely deserves a shot of Johnny Rotten.

I didn't get a chance to thank Craig for the anagrams in last night's game thread. "Geek Miner" was the only semi-respectable one for me. Scott's are few, but great, and Mick, well, all I can say is "check them out".

I'd be very pleased if Gibbons was hired for next year.
_My Names not Ry - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 09:14 AM EDT (#30401) #
if the game wasnt cancelled til 15 minutes prior, i assume Lilly had been tossing in the pen, I wonder how long he goes today
Craig B - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 09:22 AM EDT (#30402) #
How would the Bauxites feel if the job was given to Gibbons?

I'd feel fine. I still think the games early in Gibby's reign were much more critical, and he most certainly did wring a good performance out of the team then, but in September they've been a touch better, especially with the callups playing.

Honestly, I think he's done a good job of sorting out who should play and who shouldn't, and as that's the most important thing a manager does I'm pretty happy.

What does disturb me is that this '04 team's propensity to go into long funks hasn't been averted under Gibbons; already in less than two months he's had four losing streaks of 4+ games.

Jays under Tosca were 47-64 (.423) and under Gibbons 18-26 (.409). Essentially no difference. Gibby deserves his shot, though, and next year will be a good low-pressure situation to have him in.
_Matthew E - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 09:27 AM EDT (#30403) #
How would the Bauxites feel if the job was given to Gibbons?

I dunno. I may be selling both men short here, but he'd be the second manager in a row who was given the job partially because he was standing next to the guy who just got fired. I'd feel better about it if I was more sure that he was actually the guy Ricciardi wanted and not just the guy Ricciardi could get the easiest and who wasn't too bad.
_dp - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 09:55 AM EDT (#30404) #
I'm with Matt on this one- giving it to Gibbons without a real open search seems like the equivalent of giving the GM job to Stewart without interviewing anyone else...
Craig B - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 10:00 AM EDT (#30405) #
I'd feel better about it if I was more sure that he was actually the guy Ricciardi wanted and not just the guy Ricciardi could get the easiest and who wasn't too bad.


Except the difference is that Gibbons was hired for just this eventuality. He was, I think, viewed as the manager-in-waiting.
_Matthew E - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 10:08 AM EDT (#30406) #
Craig: Yeah, but is that true, or is that just what people are saying?
_Jordan - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 10:33 AM EDT (#30407) #
is that true, or is that just what people are saying?

No reason it can't be both. :-)
_Dr. Zarco - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 10:39 AM EDT (#30408) #
How would the Bauxites feel if the job was given to Gibbons?

I'm of the school that says unless the manager is really good (Bobby Cox) or really bad (Dusty Baker), the manager's role is just not extremely important. I don't think Gibbons has proven thus far that he's either. So I'm all for no more change/turmoil over the offseason. Let's hope he falls into the former category and proves himself to be outstanding.
_Tanner - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 10:40 AM EDT (#30409) #
Anyone going to the Expos game tonight? I'm in Ottawa and I'm tempted to leave work a bit early to drive to Montreal for the game. Anyone care to try and convince me one way or another?
Pistol - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 10:45 AM EDT (#30410) #
I agree with Matthew E.

Perhaps this isnít necessarily the case, but the perception that I get is that the Jays are settling for Gibbons if they hire him shortly after the season ends. Heís the interim manager, heís done a reasonable job, the team seems to like playing for him, and heíll work cheap.

But the goal shouldnít be to find a manager that will do an acceptable job. The goal should be to find the best manager for the team. It would frustrate me if the team didnít contact other potential candidates.

For example, if the team didnít contact a Larry Dierker type because they assume that heíd either not want the job and/or would be out of their price range that would be frustrating. Donít assume that, make a call and find out. You might end up pleasantly surprised.

Or if Gibbons was hired in early October before the Jays got to interview potential candidates on playoff teams (or is that just an NFL rule?) that again would be frustrating to me. There shouldnít be that much of a rush to fill the position.

Gibbons may be the best person for the job, but I donít think you should determine this without a full search for the job.

I donít know, perhaps the team is doing a full fledged job search and is just doing a good job of keeping it private.
_Mark J - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 11:01 AM EDT (#30411) #
Tanner, I'm in Ottawa too & took a road trip to see the Expos last night... went with a buddy yesterday afternoon (would have gone tonight but he has a night shift tonight). Got seated during the second batter of the game. Pretty small attendance, 5400 announced. There was a dude with a sign saying something like "Mr Selig, Mr Loria: Satan called, your room is ready" and was wandering around the stadium for half the game with it. A guy ran out on the field too (but I missed it, getting food...). Kind of a weak game, but it was good to go for old times' sake. Juan Rivera had a couple of doubles and a HR but those were the Expos' only three hits. I'd go, why not...
Coach - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 11:02 AM EDT (#30412) #
given the job partially because he was standing next to the guy who just got fired

I understand that perception, Matt, but it overlooks that Tosca (a superb 3B coach, big league bench coach for the cerebral Showalter and successful minor-league skipper) was definitely hired as the inevitable replacement for Buck Martinez, who J.P. had inherited. They didn't just look around the clubhouse and ask for a volunteer.

Gibbons, who kept being bypassed by the Mets for the top job despite a tremendous managerial record in their system, jumped at the chance to join what Ricciardi was building and was more than willing to do jobs he was overqualified for, like bullpen catcher and 1B coach.

When Tosca needed personal time off, Gibby capably took the helm. When Butter missed a rare game, there was Gibby at third. It's been obvious for two years that he's held in high esteem, so getting this "interim" audition was no surprise. If it becomes permanent, as I hope it will, that's just a testament to how deep the staff was and the quality of people J.P. has attracted to the organization.

Ernie Whitt replacing Joe Breeden remains the only change I'm expecting. Keep in mind that unconfirmed rumours about another "new" coach could be 100% true without anyone else leaving -- there isn't a bench coach at the moment.
_Moffatt - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 11:20 AM EDT (#30413) #
Eric, not Magpie, wins 150 million points for identifying Marquee Moon by Television. Possibly the most important punk band and song ever, as they/it started the whole CBGB scence in New York.

Eric also wins a picture of Television:



and of course, a Cuttlefish related picture:



Magpie, for being second, wins a picture of CBGB:



Jordan is giving me far too much credit for today's song choice. The title of today's Roundup was chosen at random. Oh well.
_Moffatt - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 11:28 AM EDT (#30414) #
As a side note, as I just got Internet access at home again, I recently took Joe's advice and downloaded Firefox.

This version is *so* much better than the previous version (which IMO was pretty lousy) that it's worth the download given how unsafe and buggy IE is.

I've only found a couple of incompatibilities with some of Ivey's intranet tools, but given that they're all Microsoft based, that's not too surprising.
_Ducey - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 11:36 AM EDT (#30415) #
What does the Cabal think about the hitting Coach?

I know he is the same guy that coached them last year ('03) but the hitting was brutal this year. Everyone but Cash came cold out of the chute including Wells and Delgado. Cash has looked like he ought to be playing beer leagues (at the plate), Hinske has been a huge disappointment, Rios has not hit for power and does not seem to be trying, and the Phelps overhaul was a disaster.

Some of this may have been the direction of higher strikeoutaphobic management but it seems that the players have not gone to the plate with a good approach. For example, Wells was first ball hitting for about a month, and Hinske seems to always miss a few breaking balls by a foot before trying to pull something outside or softly lining it to left field. A lot of guys have locked up on fastballs down the middle and there seems to be a general approach to take the first pitch no matter what.

Again, it is imposible to know if you blame the coach. Maybe things would have been even worse without him?
Gerry - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 11:42 AM EDT (#30416) #
Each manager has to have at least one "confidant" to discuss things with. I am not sure how close Gibby is to the current coaches but if he was not a long time friend of one of them he will bring in his own guy.
_Moffatt - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 11:45 AM EDT (#30417) #
RE: Hitting.

Here's how the Jays rank relative to other AL teams in a number of statistical categories:

2B: 7th
3B: 5th
HR: 13th
BA: 12th
OBP: 12th
SLG: 12th
SB: 13th
K: 4th
BB: 8th
G/F: 1st (tons of ground balls)
GIDP: 4th
IsOP: 12th

This is a team that doesn't get on base and hits everything on the ground. Despite being 12th in OBP they managed to be 4th in grounding into double plays, due to their hitting everything on the ground.
Pistol - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 12:32 PM EDT (#30418) #
As a side note, as I just got Internet access at home again, I recently took Joe's advice and downloaded Firefox.

I was having problems with IE (everytime I tried a search it would freeze) so I downloaded Firefox as well and so far it seems to work great.
_Magpie - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 12:32 PM EDT (#30419) #
Magpie may want to have a look at my first post before getting carried away.

Aw, crap.

I got so excited and all...

Each manager has to have at least one "confidant" to discuss things with.

Or as the old-time baseball guys would say, someone to drink with.

the second manager in a row who was given the job partially because he was standing next to the guy who just got fired.

It sure does look that way, although I rather think Ricciardi was taking care to have a potential successor standing nearby.

Of course managerial "searches" have not been known to produce better results, at least not the ones that gave us Tim Johnson and Buck Martinez. Tim Johnson's team had a nice record, but they didn't actually start playing well until they dumped all the old guys that Johnson insisted on playing.

Whereas Cito Gaston and Gibbons were coaches who got the interim job, and Gaston did OK. Jim Fregosi was kind of an emergency hire after the Johnson affair...
_Magpie - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 12:34 PM EDT (#30420) #
Oh, Eric.

I was still a punk before you were a punk.
Pistol - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 12:37 PM EDT (#30421) #
Draft spot update!

1. Arizona .310
2. KC .363
3. Seattle .389
4. Milwaukee .410
5. Montreal .411
6. Toronto .419
7. Tampa .426
8. Colorado .427

Every other team has at least 70 wins which would be tough to catch.
_John Northey - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 12:39 PM EDT (#30422) #
Good ol' manager time eh?

To me the best choice is Davy Johnson. Only twice has he not been 1rst or 2nd at the end of a season (5th his first partial season with Cincinnati, 3rd his first year in LA). Yeah, he is just over 60 and has some baggage but is a firm 'Earl Weaver' type of manager, ie: bunts and playing for one run is bad, 3 run homers and defense are good (although he did let a butcher with the glove play short in NY at times in Howard Johnson in order to get a 30 HR bat in the lineup).

He would be expensive and a pain to JP at times, but I suspect would have a similar viewpoint on how to run a team. He has been out of the manager ranks since the end of 2000 and must be chomping at the bit for one more shot, and was interested in the Jays job back when they hired the other Johnson. Showed he knew how to run a young upcoming team with the Mets in the 80's which is a good thing too.

Y'know, just for fun, another interesting choice would be good ol' Cito. --ducks for cover-- Honest. Give him a set lineup (the Jays are close to that now with the kid outfield, Hinske/Adams/Hudson infield and Cat mixed into the 1B/DH area) and a messed up pen and he can handle it. Again doesn't like to play for one run and shows a lot of patience with players as long as they don't disrespect him. Plus it would be great fun to watch the media go nuts 8)

Gibbons has done OK, but I haven't seen anything that makes me go 'keep him in this role' ala the early days of Cito in '89. No big turnaround, no major shifts in how the team is run, nothing really suggesting that he is any big difference from Tosca other than a bit less juggling of the pen I think (would have to go through game logs to know for certain). Not a bad choice (ala Fregosi who didn't play Wells), but not a great one either from what I can tell.
_Prisoner of Ham - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 12:49 PM EDT (#30423) #
Re the hitting coach: I agree Barney has to go. I've spoken with him, and he's a heck of a guy. But this is one confused bunch of hitters.

Re the manager: Gibbons doesn't strike me as an intellectual, but he does seem to understand what players need to play well -- confidence that the manager isn't ripping them in the front office. He comes across as a bit too nice, at times, but I expect if he was given the job full time, he'd become an even stronger personality.
_dp - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 12:54 PM EDT (#30424) #
although he did let a butcher with the glove play short in NY at times in Howard Johnson in order to get a 30 HR bat in the lineup

Actually, HoJo was in the lineup already. IIRC, he used to shift HoJo from 3B to SS, pushing Elster to the bench, to get Dave Magadan in the lineup when Sid Fernandez (extreme flyball pitcher) was on the mound. That was a fun team. He seemed to get a lot out of role players, which is a skill you want...
_Magpie - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 01:03 PM EDT (#30425) #
another interesting choice would be good ol' Cito

I was and am an admirer of Cito Gaston, but he had two major weaknesses as a manager (they all have at least that many) and one of them would be a major problem here.

Gaston's really not a great judge of talent, and part of the mission here is still sorting through all the young talent that is starting to arrive. Contrary to his rep, Gaston was always very willing to play young players - but he wasn't all that good at figuring out which young ones were worth playing.

He would certainly sort out the bullpen, though. He could always do that.

His other weakness - his slowness to respond to changing circumstances, his reluctance to cut the cord on things that have worked before but don't work anymore (i.e. Joe Carter, cleanup hitter) - would probably not come into play so much.

Again doesn't like to play for one run

Sort of. Gaston wasn't so much a big-inning manager as a hitter's manager. He believed that if a hitter saw a pitch he could hit, he should take a whack at it. He should never let it go by so someone can steal a base, and Gaston wouldn't make him bunt unless he was a lousy hitter. Because Gaston's idea of lineup construction was generally to have his nine best hitters in the lineup (except at catcher - that was the one position where he always chose defense over offense), he wasn't much interested in bunting. But Gaston was something of a small-ball manager on the defensive side. He liked to bring the infield in to guard against a run at the plate in the third inning.

Gaston would be the perfect guy for the Cubs and a better fit with the Yankees, although God knows Willie Randolph deserves that job.

It would sure be fun to watch Bob McCown and Steve Simmons flip out, though...

Davey Johnson is probably the best manager not working. All he does is win, everywhere except Los Angeles. The teams that couldn't stand having him around anymore (always an issue with Davey) generally went straight into the toilet after he left.
Mike D - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 01:11 PM EDT (#30426) #
Great CBGB photo. There's a makeshift Ramones shrine, complete with candles, flowers and wreaths, on the sidewalk these days.

I live literally three blocks from it, although when I go, it's usually to the mellower CB's Gallery next door.

For 175 million points...what does CBGB stand for?
_Moffatt - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 01:14 PM EDT (#30427) #
For 175 million points...what does CBGB stand for?

Oooh oooh oooh I know. Since I'm the one who is posting Television lyrics and pictures of CBGB, I imagine I'm ineligible. :)
_Magpie - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 01:14 PM EDT (#30428) #
what does CBGB stand for?

Was it Country and Blue Grass Bar?

Something like that...
Pistol - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 01:15 PM EDT (#30429) #
But this is one confused bunch of hitters.

Would you mind elaborating? Is it approach, philosophy, preparation, etc..?
_Moffatt - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 01:16 PM EDT (#30430) #
You've got 3 of 4 letters Magpie. :)
Mike D - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 01:16 PM EDT (#30431) #
Moffatt, you're ineligible for CBGB. But you're eligible for OMFUG (under "CBGB" on the awning), which I know the gist of but can't remember exactly.

Don't tell us OMFUG until somebody answers CBGB.
_Matthew E - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 01:16 PM EDT (#30432) #
It was Country, Blue Grass, Blues.
Mike D - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 01:17 PM EDT (#30433) #
Yep, Magpie's 3 for 4.
Mike D - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 01:17 PM EDT (#30434) #
And Matthew nails it for the 175,000,000. Moffatt, what's OMFUG?
_Magpie - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 01:18 PM EDT (#30435) #
You've got 3 of 4 letters Magpie

Hey, not bad. It was like a quarter of a century ago.
_Moffatt - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 01:18 PM EDT (#30436) #
Crap. I forget what OMFUG stands for, though IIRC the first three letters are for "other music for ..."
_Matthew E - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 01:19 PM EDT (#30437) #
I also am against Cito coming back. One of Cito's problems, I believe, is that he doesn't believe in the walk. I will go so far as to say that I think it's possible he outright dislikes the walk. (From an offensive, not defensive, perspective.) You know how the Jays had been a low-OBP team before Ricciardi came in and started making changes? Who do you think had been shaping that offense for the previous twenty years?
_Moffatt - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 01:20 PM EDT (#30438) #
You know how the Jays had been a low-OBP team before Ricciardi came in and started making changes?

Unlike today, where they're a... wait.. nevermind.
Mike D - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 01:20 PM EDT (#30439) #
OK, so I googled it. "Other Music For Uplifting Gourmandizers." There's no way I would have gotten the "G."
_Loveshack - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 01:20 PM EDT (#30440) #
Other Music for Uplifting Gourmandizers

Dont ask me to explain what it means though.
_Matthew E - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 01:20 PM EDT (#30441) #
And Matthew nails it for the 175,000,000.

And I wasn't punk before anybody. I wasn't punk before people who aren't punk yet.
_Moffatt - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 01:21 PM EDT (#30442) #
Speaking of OMFUG, does anyone know the significance of PLUGH? 35 million points for that one.
_Jim - TBG - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 01:23 PM EDT (#30443) #
http://www.torontobaseballguys.com
Tim PLUGH? I believe he was a non-descript reliever for Cincinnati some years back.
_Magpie - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 01:24 PM EDT (#30444) #
i assume Lilly had been tossing in the pen,

But not so much. Normally they tend to head down to the outfield twenty or twenty five minutes before first pitch and start long tossing. This goes on for a while. They eventually shorten the distance to roughly seventy feet over the next ten minutes or so. Then they go to the bullpen to truly warm up about fifteen minutes before game time.

With the possibility of cancellation in the air, I doubt if they would have got beyond some desultory long tossing.
_Ryan G - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 01:32 PM EDT (#30445) #
Does anyone know if the 2$ tickets are still available. And if so, how do i get them?

I used the cupon code, but it still says the cost is 36$ for 4.
_Prisoner of Ham - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 01:35 PM EDT (#30446) #
Pistol, what I see is a number of hitters -- Hinske, Wells to a lesser degree, Rios, Woodward when he was playing, Phelps when he was here -- looking caught between approaches. It's been said by others, but it seems to me that philosphy has gotten in the way of the talents of a number of these players.

I'm blanking on the name of the White Sox hitting coach a few years ago who believed very firmly in contact, and insisted that all of his hitters, including his sluggers, wait on the ball, and use their wrists and forearms to slap at it, rather than take a big power stroke. He created a lineup of slap hitters, their home run totals went way down, and they got nowhere.

A number of the Jays hitters look as though they're always trying to hit the ball the other way rather than looking for pitches to drive. It's one of the reasons I think Gabe Gross's swing looked so great when he got here -- he hadn't had his mind messed up yet.
Mike D - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 01:36 PM EDT (#30447) #
blanking on the name of the White Sox hitting coach

Walt Hriniak. Frank Thomas actually loved working with Walt. But Hurt is so powerful that he's able to hit home runs despite his line-drive swing.
_Magpie - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 01:38 PM EDT (#30448) #
One of Cito's problems, I believe, is that he doesn't believe in the walk.

Blue Jays teams with most BB:

1. 1993 (588) - Cito Gaston
2. 1999 (578) - Jim Fregosi
3. 1998 (564) - Tim Johnson
4. 1992 (561) - Cito Gaston
5. 1987 (555) - Jimy Williams
6. 2003 (546) - Carlos Tosca
7. 1996 (529) - Cito Gaston
8. 1990 (526) - Cito Gaston
9. 2002 (522) - Carlos Tosca
10. 1989 (521) - Cito Gaston & Jimy Williams
--- 1988 (521) - Jimy Williams

His 1994 and 1995 teams would also have made the top ten if they had played 162 games. His 1994 team would have had about 540 walks, his 1995 team would have had about 550.

Gaston is famous for loving Joe Carter - but he also liked McGriff and Molitor and Winfield and Alomar and Delgado, too.

Olerud, well... not so much.
_Moffatt - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 01:47 PM EDT (#30449) #
In a related stat, here is the Jays OBP for the last five years:


2000 .341
2001 .325
2002 .327
2003 .349
2004 .329


I'd be surprised if the Jays are under .340 next year, but that's one heck of a drop.
_Magpie - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 01:50 PM EDT (#30450) #
Blue Jays teams with most BB

Further note - Gaston spent as many years as a hitting coach as he did as a manager. The teams he managed drew more walks than the teams he was coaching.

Let's do the same list with hitting coaches instead of managers.

1. 1993 (588) - Larry Hisle
2. 1999 (578) - Gary Mathews
3. 1998 (564) - Gary Mathews
4. 1992 (561) - Larry Hisle
5. 1987 (555) - Cito Gaston
6. 2003 (546) - Mike Barnett
7. 1996 (529) - Willie Upshaw
8. 1990 (526) - Gene Tenace
9. 2002 (522) - Mike Barnett
10. 1989 (521) - Cito Gaston
--- 1988 (521) - Cito Gaston

Larry Hisle was the hitting coach in 1994 and 1995
Named For Hank - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 01:52 PM EDT (#30451) #
Plugh is the magic word from Zork (and a host of other Infocom games), isn't it?
Named For Hank - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 01:54 PM EDT (#30452) #
Damn, no it wasn't. I was close.
_Moffatt - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 01:55 PM EDT (#30453) #
You get 32 million out of a possible 35 million.

I don't know why OMFUG reminded me of PLUGH. The human brain is a strange thing. :)
_Magpie - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 02:00 PM EDT (#30454) #
Lots of stuff over at ESPN on Willie Mays' catch in the 1954 WS - today is the 50th anniversary. (Fifty? Yikes.)

My favourite bit is always the quote from Don Liddle, the LOOGY who came into the game to face Wertz and was pulled after the AB.

"Well, I got my guy."
_Jonathan - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 02:06 PM EDT (#30455) #
The White Sox batting coach was Walt Hriniak, I believe.

Everyone gives Cito grief for his disregard for the walk. But he also coached in a different era. It was near ten years ago since he last managed and the players he had in his final years would have embarassed even Bobby Cox. I think Cito, where ever he (if) gets his next chance, will prove himself again. How many years has the Beane/Moneyball argument been out? It's not long. Cito was around much before, and really, there were not many managers working on any other system. I woudn't really blame Cito; remember how many GMs traded for no-BB Carter before the Jays had him.

Guess where Davey Johnson is now? He's managing the Netherlands olympic baseball team in Haarlem.
Named For Hank - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 02:06 PM EDT (#30456) #
Paul Godfrey's taking calls on the Fan right now.
Named For Hank - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 02:12 PM EDT (#30457) #
Godfrey says the sale price for the Expos, when revealed with be "staggering", as in huge.

He says Ted Rogers is committed to fielding a winning team. Talking about payroll, he says that the Twins and As and Marlins have proved that you can do it with lower budgets.

He says before J.P. the farm system wasn't as stacked as it needed to be. He's explaining the team's strategy of building the farm instead of buying free agents.
_Magpie - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 02:14 PM EDT (#30458) #
there were not many managers working on any other system.

Well, Earl Weaver and Billy Martin were both about as devoted to the big inning as any managers who ever lived. Davey Johnson, too.

The walk was never something Gaston emphasized as a weapon, although Gaston's teams drew their share of walks - generally, he always had a first baseman who was good for 100 walks a year.
_Dr. Zarco - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 02:14 PM EDT (#30459) #
Speaking of Mays' catch...I know it was a great catch and all, but I think it's just due to the fact that it was in such a huge situation (ie. Game 1 of the World Series, tie game, 8th inning with two on) that it's remembered the way it is. From a pure "how good a catch" standpoint" I think it's rubbish to call that "the greatest catch in the history of baseball" as Jayson Stark and many others do.

Jim Edmonds, Darrin Erstad and other CF's have made that back-to-home-plate catch...while DIVING. I know it was probably just in May of a random season for a non-playoff team, but come on, way harder of a catch. I know Mays had a long way to run due to the deep fences, but still. In a random year, we'll say 2002, that probably makes Sportscenter's Top Ten of the year, but no more. Sorry if I seem sacrilegious...
_Prisoner of Ham - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 02:19 PM EDT (#30460) #
I wonder if Godfrey will lean over during the break and tell Chuck: "My name's Godfrey, not Godfried!"
Named For Hank - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 02:22 PM EDT (#30461) #
Heh. Maybe Godfrey's beating him up right now while we listen to commercials.
robertdudek - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 02:23 PM EDT (#30462) #
I'm not impressed by diving catches. That might mean the fielder got a late jump on the ball. IMO, to judge outfield catches, it is necessary to assess the speed of the outfielder and the jump he gets on a ball.
_Prisoner of Ham - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 02:26 PM EDT (#30463) #
He said something. Chuck called him Godfrey for the first time.
_Magpie - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 02:26 PM EDT (#30464) #
I know Mays had a long way to run due to the deep fences

Mays always said there was never any doubt in his mind that he'd make the catch and that he was thinking about getting ready for the throw while he was running...

I know, I know, but...

Its just that he was 450 feet from home plate when he caught the ball. He was playing shallow to try to keep the runner on second from scoring on a single.

We just have no frame of reference for a CF wall that is 460 feet from home plate. Film somehow eliminates the depth... its as if Devon White ran through the wall and up into the second deck... White ran roughly 100-120 feet to make his catch in 1992. Mays ran about 180-200 feet. It took forever to happen...
Named For Hank - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 02:29 PM EDT (#30465) #
They're talking to Delgado next week. They want him to stay. Godfrey thinks he wants to stay. He declined to waive his no-trade because he likes Toronto.

Godfrey says they have a number in mind, which they'll tell Delgado before anyone else and that Delgado will have to decide between getting the most money and staying in Toronto.

They probably would not offer salary arbitration. He says it's JP's call but he'd recommend against it.
Named For Hank - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 02:30 PM EDT (#30466) #
Chuck's asking if anyone in the farm system is there to fill in if Carlos leaves.

Godfrey says that there will be a lot of non-tenders to look at. I guess that's a no. ;)
_Jobu - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 02:32 PM EDT (#30467) #
OOOO... thats a juicy tidbit.

Before Gibby got the job, the Jays asked Molitor if he'd like to be interviewed for the job and he declined.
_Magpie - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 02:33 PM EDT (#30468) #
I'm not impressed by diving catches. That might mean the fielder got a late jump on the ball.

Why did the name "Ken Griffey" just leap into my mind all of a sudden?

I like it when the guys is already there when the ball comes down.
Named For Hank - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 02:33 PM EDT (#30469) #
Chuck's asking if Paul Molitor should be in the running to be the manager.

Godfrey says he'd be great for PR reasons for a lot of teams. They asked Molitor if he wanted to be interviewed for the position before they hired Buck Martinez and Molitor declined.

"There are a lot of glamor names out there, but unless the field manager and the general manager are in sync there are going to be problems."
Named For Hank - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 02:36 PM EDT (#30470) #
"If Moneyball's such a good idea, why didn't we do it in '92 or '93 when we won the World Series?"

Duh, because we had lots of money then. Thanks, caller.
Named For Hank - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 02:37 PM EDT (#30471) #
Godfrey's pushing for playoff expansion.
_dp - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 02:37 PM EDT (#30472) #
They probably would not offer salary arbitration. He says it's JP's call but he'd recommend against it.

Wow. Really nice to let the guy have so much room to work- essentially "my money, but I trust my man enough to let him handle it well".
_Jobu - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 02:39 PM EDT (#30473) #
Wonder if anyone will call in to talk Toronto NFL team with Godfrey.
Named For Hank - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 02:39 PM EDT (#30474) #
Did Chuck just call him Godfried again? I can picture Godfrey getting into his helicopter and using his laser on Chuck after the show.
_Keith Talent - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 02:40 PM EDT (#30475) #
"the greatest catch in the history of baseball"

Shouldn't it be the greatest catch in the history of television?
_Prisoner of Ham - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 02:42 PM EDT (#30476) #
Godfrey knows people in the dark underworld. He'll have Chuck "massaged."
_Rob - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 02:43 PM EDT (#30477) #
I don't think Alomar would give his eye teeth to play in Toronto again.
Godfrey thinks so, but I doubt that.

If "Moneyball" was such a good idea, why didn't they use it in 1992 and 1993?
Gee, because they had money to spend then? Idiot.

I know Godfrey wants to expand the playoffs, and I am open-minded about this, but there is no way you can have 16 of 30 teams playing into October and November. The Grey Cup would happen before the World Series.

Did Chuck just call him Godfried again?

Boy, I hope so. He was great as the parrot in Aladdin.
Named For Hank - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 02:48 PM EDT (#30478) #
Godfrey knows people in the dark underworld. He'll have Chuck "massaged."

Now, just because he dresses well and has flashy rings that does not make him an unsavory character. But he does have a helicopter with a giant laser that flashes the new Jays logo -- we've seen it!
Named For Hank - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 02:52 PM EDT (#30479) #
Godfrey says the team is about halfway through rebuilding, it's on schedule, the team is financially stable and won't be doing like the Expos.
_Rob - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 02:54 PM EDT (#30480) #
Randomly-heard last thoughts for Godfrey:

- This year was not a good year.
- We were quite satisfied with 86 wins last year.
- We got a lot of kids who are going to hustle and turn heads.
- Toronto will have an exciting team. We are going to be a competitive team. We are halfway through the plan.
- The plan is totally on schedule, we are going to be there, and we are going to be successful.

He also pronounced Halladay "Holiday." This is one of life's great debates, and I can never tell which it is. Anyone?

And I HATE that vacation ad with the kid singing. Same with you, Aaron?
_Jacko - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 02:55 PM EDT (#30481) #

They're talking to Delgado next week. They want him to stay. Godfrey thinks he wants to stay. He declined to waive his no-trade because he likes Toronto.

Something tells me the 3/21 "offer" was information that was intentionally leaked. I also think it represents a unofficial opening offer, and that the Jays would go a little higher to keep him.

What do people figure the high end of what the Jays can afford is? 3/25 has been thrown around here quite a bit.

However, if another team comes around and offers Delgado a 4-year deal, even for the same money per year as the Jays, he's going to be hard pressed to turn it down.

Should the Jays consider offering a 4/32 deal if the 4th year ends up being a deal breaker?
_Ryan G - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 02:55 PM EDT (#30482) #
So... Anyone know the news on the 2$ tickets? Are there any more available?

I'm a student, and the difference between 2$ and 9$ tickets is 3 drinks at pub night.

Thanks
_Moffatt - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 02:55 PM EDT (#30483) #
And I HATE that vacation ad with the kid singing.

Could be worse.

OOOH BABY, BABY BABY PLEASE...
_Jobu - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 02:57 PM EDT (#30484) #
Just to recap what I said yesterday, if anyone could let me know where I could find the jersey numbers of past Jay coaches, or could send me any interesting stories they recall about Jays and their numbers in the past, it would be a great help to a project I'm working on. Thanks all.
_Jacko - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 02:57 PM EDT (#30485) #

And I HATE that vacation ad with the kid singing.

Not nearly as annoying as the new Epson "Baby, baby, please" ads. What a horrible, horrible ad.

Does anyone else miss the singing cowboy?

"Even if you were covered in muck, I'd still love you like I love my truck."
_Jonathan - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 02:58 PM EDT (#30486) #
Godfrey says:
- This year was not a good year.
- We got a lot of kids who are going to hustle and turn heads.
- Toronto will have an exciting team. We are going to be a competitive team. We are halfway through the plan.
- The plan is totally on schedule, we are going to be there, and we are going to be successful.


In other words "We've got 'em next year!" Way to sell those advance seats there Paul.
_Moffatt - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 02:59 PM EDT (#30487) #
"Even if you were covered in muck, I'd still love you like I love my truck."

That was the greatest line in a country song since:

my long hair can't cover up my red neck
_Matthew E - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 03:00 PM EDT (#30488) #
Blue Jays teams with most BB

Now go back and look at where those totals placed relative to the league. Up until 2001, which is when I first started looking at this, no Toronto team had ever finished in the top 5 in the league in walks. And Cito was either the manager or hitting coach for almost all of those teams.
_Rob - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 03:03 PM EDT (#30489) #
OK, GTA Bauxites. Time to vote on the most annoying radio ad on the FAN 590:

The Epson Cowboy
The New Epson Singer
Sure Hair International (I just remembered how bad that one was)
"Torontojobshop.ca?" "Yeah, Torontojobshop.ca!"
Lone Star Texas Grill (on right now)
"Outstanding, outspoken, outrageous reporters. Here comes The Sun!"

Add your own as you see fit. I'll probably remember them all.
_benum - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 03:03 PM EDT (#30490) #

I don't think Alomar would give his eye teeth to play in Toronto again.
Godfrey thinks so, but I doubt that.


The way he's looked the last couple of years, he'll have to give his eye teeth to someone (to get a job in the majors). He's done.
_Moffatt - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 03:04 PM EDT (#30491) #
Add your own as you see fit.

The *!@#(_@#(_@ing garlic poem one!
_Jobu - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 03:04 PM EDT (#30492) #
OK, GTA Bauxites. Time to vote on the most annoying radio ad on the FAN 590

Garlic Poem Guy. Hands down.
_Jobu - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 03:05 PM EDT (#30493) #
Damn Moffatt's fast...
_Moffatt - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 03:06 PM EDT (#30494) #
Now go back and look at where those totals placed relative to the league. Up until 2001, which is when I first started looking at this, no Toronto team had ever finished in the top 5 in the league in walks. And Cito was either the manager or hitting coach for almost all of those teams.

Still not sure what you're getting at, considering the Jays are 8th this year for walks and near dead last in OBP. 2003 looks like a bit of an abberation consider the Jays were 9th in both in 2002.
Craig B - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 03:08 PM EDT (#30495) #
Yeah, those are all irritating but as Joibu and Moffatt pointed out, Garlic Poem Guy is working on an entirely different level.
_Rob - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 03:09 PM EDT (#30496) #
I forgot Garlic Poem Guy. Now I know.

"Garlic, garlic, you're so great..."
_Matthew E - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 03:10 PM EDT (#30497) #
Has anyone heard those salmon ads? "I will not not eat salmon"? I'd rather hear the garlic poem on a continuous loop.
_Jobu - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 03:10 PM EDT (#30498) #
I once broke a small table in my house when I was listening to the Jays on my clock radio and lunged over the table to turn the radio off as if my life was on the line.

WOOOOO!!! BLUE JAYS IN FLIGHT.
Named For Hank - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 03:12 PM EDT (#30499) #
Can't say that I mind the Sell Off Vacations little kid singing. And the Epson Cowboy grew on me.

But the Garlic Poem Guy can burn in hell.
_Jobu - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 03:13 PM EDT (#30500) #
reading my post....i should probably mention that reason for my lunge of death was because Garlic Poem came on and my body went into self preservation mode.
_Keith Talent - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 03:14 PM EDT (#30501) #
Guys, you are missing THE WORST RADIO ADVERTISING CAMPAIGN EVER. I nearly drive my car into a lightpost everytime I hear that Harvey's guy who sounds like he's about to juice his pants at the thought of sirloin. The way he says the word just makes me want to vomit. S-IRRRHIRRHIR-LOIN... that this guy is going fishing and then gets suddently horny by the though of a burger... disgusting.
_perlhack - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 03:16 PM EDT (#30502) #
2000 .341
2001 .325
2002 .327
2003 .349
2004 .329


Say, do you think there's a reason that the team OBP for 2000 and 2003 are so high? What, oh what, do those two seasons have in common?

If anyone has the stats at hand, what would the team OBP be if Delgado's 2000 and 2003 seasons were more like an average of 2001, 2002 and 2004. Is he wholly responsible for the discrepancy? I would doubt it, but I do think his numbers had a disproportionate effect on the team totals.
Craig B - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 03:17 PM EDT (#30503) #
KT, I gotta admit, the Sirloin Heavy Breather amuses the hell out of me (in small doses *only*). Sure, it's creepy, but no creepier than the anagrams of Gleeman's name or something.
_Ryan Lind - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 03:23 PM EDT (#30504) #
Well, I'm not a GTA Bauxite, but I was listening to the Rainout show online last night, and that "baby, baby, please" as almost caused me to throw my monitor accross the room. I don't even know what the ad is advertising; that's not a good thing.
_Jobu - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 03:25 PM EDT (#30505) #
Ryan...be glad you haven't been subjected to GPG. Be very glad....
Mike Green - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 03:26 PM EDT (#30506) #
Craig, just wait 'til one of your kids becomes a vegetarian, and one becomes a carnivore and they're in the back seat when that ad comes on. Sometimes the provocations come from nowhere and the only way out is to stop the car on the shoulder.
_Loveshack - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 03:47 PM EDT (#30507) #
But the Garlic Poem Guy can burn in hell.

LOL, Sara.
Craig B - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 04:10 PM EDT (#30508) #
Sometimes the provocations come from nowhere and the only way out is to stop the car on the shoulder

Great, my hair is already falling out.
_Willy - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 04:29 PM EDT (#30509) #
Magpie's right about Mays' catch: it was unbelievable. If anyone can post an aerial view of the Polo Grounds you might have some idea of how far Mays had to run; then stop instantly, wheel and nail second base spot on with his throw. That catch isn't just some TV-myth.

If you read the NYT piece on Liddle's "I got my man" comment, his son is very anxious to have us know that Liddle said it, not as he returned to the dugout, but later in the dressing room: nobody would make such a comment in the dugout to Leo the Lip, he says. Can you imagine Leo managing today's players? (I can't.)
Mike Green - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 05:31 PM EDT (#30510) #
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=sickels_john
Why am I a John Sickels fan? COMN for a summary of Ryan Garko. I should know Ryan Garko, but didn't until I saw this. Reading a Sickels summary isn't as good as seeing a prospect 10 or 15 times, but it's the next best thing.
_Magpie - Wednesday, September 29 2004 @ 06:23 PM EDT (#30511) #
Liddle said it, not as he returned to the dugout, but later in the dressing room

I always figured it was when he sat down on the dugout bench, with Durocher still out on the mound with the new pitcher.

If Durocher had heard it, agreed - Liddle would be famous today as the first pitcher beaten to death by his manager during a WS game.
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