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Told me I go what it takes
She said "I'll turn you on sonny to something strong,
play the song with the funky break"
And go-cart Mozart was checkin' out the weather chart to see if it was safe outside
And little Early-Pearly came by in his curly-wurly and asked me if I needed a ride
Asked me if I needed a ride


  1. Gibbons Named Manager:

    • Spencer Fordin:

        He was the man of the hourglass. John Gibbons even got to name his own time on Monday, when he was named Toronto's full-time manager in a press conference at 10 a.m.

        That time-frame was necessary because Gibbons had an afternoon flight back to Texas, headed home to spend some much-needed time with the family. In the baseball business, it never lasts long -- pitchers and catchers report in 134 days, if you're counting.

    • Shi Davidi:

        You won't meet many people as easygoing as John Gibbons, a man who slaps backs, speaks with a southern drawl and always has a smile on his face.

        Underneath the surface, however, resides a strict baseball disciplinarian who will take players to task if he doesn't see the proper effort and determination on the field. "That's a side to Gibby you'll never see," Toronto Blue Jays GM J.P. Ricciardi said Monday, shortly after naming Gibbons the club's manager in 2005.

    • Richard Griffin:

        Some things don't seem to add up regarding the hiring policies of Blue Jays GM J.P. Ricciardi.

        For example, on Sept. 3, 2002, the Jays gave John Gibbons a two-year extension to remain as first-base coach. Yesterday, they offered him only a one-year deal to remain as manager. No option year, nothing. Hmm!

        In fact, it all still sounds pretty "interim" to many. Gibbons is a great guy. He's fun to talk to about many subjects. He's like a million friends that are enthusiastically into sports and life. But would you let them manage your major-league team? The fact is Gibbons seemed more comfortable being a coach, where he should have remained.

    • Geoff Baker:

        Former manager Tosca once said of Gibbons that he "has a little red-ass in him'' and could get downright nasty when he had to be especially with umpires. Ex-Jays pitching coach Gil Patterson, fired last week, said his biggest disappointment was that Gibbons, who he considers a friend, didn't stand up and argue his case for him. But Gibbons instead stood up yesterday and explained why changes had to occur, with both he and Ricciardi citing a decline in the progress of some pitchers. It takes a certain survivalist instinct to do that and Gibbons will need his smarts, cunning and "two steps ahead'' vision to remain the manager.

      Moffatt Asks: Is a 20-30 record with a difficult schedule worthy of having the interim tag lifted? How much of an impact should sample size play in the decision?


  2. The removal of the "interim" tag on Gibbons wasn't the only change to the coaching ranks yesterday:

    • Spencer Fordin:

        The coaching staff is set, pending one more addition.

        The Blue Jays welcomed Ernie Whitt and Brad Arnsberg to the staff on Monday, when they also confirmed John Gibbons as the full-time manager. Mike Barnett, Bruce Walton and Brian Butterfield will be back in their original capacities -- hitting coach, bullpen coach and third-base coach, respectively.

        The only thing missing is a first-base coach, and Toronto plans to add that later in the week. Whitt is poised to serve as a bench coach, and Arnsberg steps in as the new pitching coach. Both played in the big leagues, though Whitt has never served as a Major League coach. He's spent the past few seasons as a roving catching instructor, but he's ready for a change.

    • Tim Wharnsby:

        Even though Ernie Whitt has been added to the Toronto Blue Jays' coaching staff as manager John Gibbons's bench coach, the former Jay remains interested in managing the Canadian baseball team at the 2008 Olympics in Beijing.

        As expected, Gibbons, Whitt, new pitching coach Brad Arnsberg, hitting coach Mike Barnett, third-base coach Brian Butterfield and bullpen coach Bruce Walton were each given one-year contracts yesterday.



  3. 36 hours later and many are still in shock due to the sudden passing of John Cerutti:

    • Spencer Fordin:

        The local baseball community remained in shock and sadness on Monday, 24 hours after learning that John Cerutti passed away at the age of 44.

        A former player and broadcaster, Cerutti is best remembered as a husband and a father of three children.

        "It was a very difficult day. Not only did I lose a good friend and teammate, just a good man," said Ernie Whitt, Cerutti's former catcher. "It's very difficult to talk about, but it just shows you how quick life is and how it's taken away from you. What I can say about John is he was a very devoted man to his family. He loved the game of baseball, but more importantly, he loved his kids."



  4. Following up on Jonny German's "The Future As Of Now: Your 2005 Toronto Blue Jays:

    • Shi Davidi:

        An inept offence can take much of the blame for a 67-94 record in 2004, resulting in the Blue Jays' first last-place finish since 1997.

        But with Delgado coming off a four-year, $68-million US contract, ace Roy Halladay's salary going up to $10.5 million in 2005 and a payroll expected to be at $53 million, the Jays can't afford him and address other needs too.

        "That's a reality," said Ricciardi. "I don't even know if we can pay him money that's going to make him say, 'Hey, I really want to stay here.' We're going to be honest with him, we'll tell him this is what we can afford."

    • Tim Wharnsby:

        The time-honoured baseball tradition of a club's general manager gathering local reporters for a postseason postmortem is steeped in hyperbole.

        Toronto Blue Jays general manager J.P. Ricciardi kept up the custom yesterday, when less than 24 hours after his club finished with 67 wins and 94 losses -- its worst record in 24 years -- he preached more patience before the Jays could be a contender.

        "I don't think we'll be knocking on the door next year," the third-year GM said. "This is going to take time to build up. It may take five years, it may take 10 years after I'm gone.

    • Curtis Rush:


        Patience, Blue Jays fans. Patience. And don't worry about the Jays meeting a similar fate to the Montreal Expos, who have played their last game in Canada.

        The Blue Jays today said they are committed to fielding a competitive team every year, without spending gobs of cash to get one.

    • Allan Ryan:

        THE SHOPPING LIST: "A designated hitter, possibly a first baseman (and Carlos Delgado is still available), maybe another infielder," said Ricciardi. "Another starting pitcher would allow us to keep (Miguel) Batista in the pen, then maybe two or three more bullpen guys." Can Jays address them all? If the budget holds at $50 million (all figures U.S.), probably not.

        THE OUTFIELD: Reed Johnson and Frank Catalanotto platooning in left, Vernon Wells in centre and Rios, looks like, the everyday guy in right. "I think (Rios) can be a good player and I think the power will come."

        THE INFIELD: "Hinske and Hudson (Eric and Orlando, at third and second) and, even though it was a small sample size, he handled himself well and I'd go with Adams (at short). Question mark at first. It also could be a situation where we get another outfielder and maybe Catalanotto plays first."

      Moffatt Asks: Are there any reasons for the casual fan to believe that the Jays won't finish in last again next year? I'm afraid I don't see too many.

Jays Roundup - Some Silicone Sister With a Manager Mister | 108 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
_dp - Tuesday, October 05 2004 @ 08:34 AM EDT (#28155) #
2 things:
1) I wish they'd done a little managerial search first. Not a big one. But the fact that the team didn't win under Gibbons says that he shouldn't be just handed a job. When they hired JP, it was because he had a plan of what he'd do with the team, a better one than Dave Stewart. Why not see if there's a managerial candidate out there with the same thing going on?

2) I know they're lock in with Eric Hinske, but they can't live with that kind of production from a guy making what he is. Better to have him on the bench than to play him because of his contract...y'know that "sunk cost" thing that sabr-gms underestand better than anyone else. Maybe they're thinking if they can struggle through one more season with Hinske they'll get to Hill, but still, they should have someone there in case he continues to suck monumentally.
_Jonny German - Tuesday, October 05 2004 @ 08:39 AM EDT (#28156) #
Hmm, maybe the Jays were blinded by the light of their man John Manfred Gibbons...
Mike Green - Tuesday, October 05 2004 @ 08:42 AM EDT (#28157) #
...so that they could spring Steenbrenner from the can.
_Moffatt - Tuesday, October 05 2004 @ 08:44 AM EDT (#28158) #
Here's the million dollar question, though: Is J.P. Ricciardi a "sabr-gm"?

I like him as a GM, I think overall he's doing a very good job, but I wouldn't put any type of SABR label on him. He's too old school.

(Song awards on the way)
Mike Green - Tuesday, October 05 2004 @ 09:04 AM EDT (#28159) #
It's a continuum. Epstein and Beane are the most rigorous in applying sabermetric approaches. DePo might like to, but he's adapting to a successful culture that doesn't. JP is not hostile to sabermetrics, but clearly his scouting background has influenced his approach, which I would characterize as balanced.

His handling of the Hinske situation might reflect that. It seems quite plain that he has a scout's attachment to Hinske's skills (which include strike zone judgment) and his very positive attitude. A balance of the hope for improvement vs. the reality of his performance over the last 2 years (compared with replacement value) has to be struck. The scout's attachment will understandably affect the timing of the judgment, much as Gillick's attachment to Willie Upshaw affected the timing of the judgment with respect to him.
_dp - Tuesday, October 05 2004 @ 09:05 AM EDT (#28160) #
I've always held a little wider view of what constitues a "sabr" approach. I think you can take the economic parts without taking the gameplay parts, because the idea that it's about one way to play the game is a Baseball Tonight straw man version. Hinske's a tough call- his '04 was so bad that you don't want to depend on him for next year, but the club's paying him anyway so you don't want to release him, and his contract has made him untradeable. This will IMO wind up being one of JP's biggest mistakes- Hinske didn't look like a guy who would post years that far above what he did in his rookie year, so the need to lock him up wasn't as pressing as it was for Vern.

The best option right now IMO would be to find a borderline 3B a hand the job to him over the winter. Make Hisnke earn it back, work him into spots where he's best able to succeed, and hope he posts decent numbers so you can move him before he gets crazy expensive.

And this team needs Josh Phelps. JP shouldn't have traded him. Deemed "uncorrectable" a bit early for my liking. If your hitting coach can't fix him and Hisnke, maybe the problem isn't with the talent...
_Jobu - Tuesday, October 05 2004 @ 09:05 AM EDT (#28161) #
I think it was pretty evident they were going to make Boomhauer coach. Why put on a fake interview search, and drag people in actually looking for a job just to disapoint them?
Pistol - Tuesday, October 05 2004 @ 09:06 AM EDT (#28162) #
Here's the million dollar question, though: Is J.P. Ricciardi a "sabr-gm"?

Is that a Canadian or US million?

I suppose it depends on how you define "sabr-gm", but while he doesn't strictly adhere to sabrmetric thinking he's probably in the top 5.
_Jim Acker - Tuesday, October 05 2004 @ 09:08 AM EDT (#28163) #
Can we pretend that Manfred Man didn't ruin this Springsteen classic?
Pistol - Tuesday, October 05 2004 @ 09:09 AM EDT (#28164) #
Why put on a fake interview search

Now that you bring that up, under MLB's hiring policy did the Jays need to interview minority candidates, or could they bypass that because they hired within?
_Jobu - Tuesday, October 05 2004 @ 09:10 AM EDT (#28165) #
I thought mandatory fake interviews was an NFL rule?
_Moffatt - Tuesday, October 05 2004 @ 09:10 AM EDT (#28166) #
If your hitting coach can't fix him and Hisnke, maybe the problem isn't with the talent...

My thoughts precisely.
_Rich - Tuesday, October 05 2004 @ 09:28 AM EDT (#28167) #
I don't know it all comes down to coaching with Hinske:

Year - BB - OBP

2002 - 77 - .365
2003 - 59 - .329
2004 - 54 - .312

Those are disturbing numbers. If Hinske doesn't turn it around by next July then I would think seriously about cutting bait on his contract if Hill has a good start.
_dp - Tuesday, October 05 2004 @ 09:30 AM EDT (#28168) #
When JP took over, it looked like his skill was putting together a good offense. With this year basically being a direct implementation of his approach to hitting, I'm starting to question that. This team looked stacked with hitters coming into '04. Phelps was a stud. If you look past his injury-ridden '03, Werth was, not a stud, but at least a smart hitter. Hinske was a question mark, but also gets a pass on '03 because of his injuries. Rios, I know '04 is being called a success, but you can't live with .338/.383 from a RF (Dave Berg's '02- .322/.382). Dave Wells took a step back from superstar to very good. So what happened? I had a couple of people jump on me in July when I blamed the coaches, but when a whole team's young core struggles, the success of Greg Zaun and Frank Menechino doesn't let them off the hook...

I want to have hope for next season, but there seems to be no realization of what this year's main problem was...
_dp - Tuesday, October 05 2004 @ 09:31 AM EDT (#28169) #
Dave Wells
Uhh...maybe Vernon Wells...
_Jobu - Tuesday, October 05 2004 @ 09:31 AM EDT (#28170) #
I'm working on my historical numbers project, and I just found out now that the Jays had a player named Joey Lawrence. Damnit, where was I for that!? Man, the field-day I would have had....
_Joey Lawrences - Tuesday, October 05 2004 @ 09:33 AM EDT (#28171) #
WHOA!
_The Original Ry - Tuesday, October 05 2004 @ 09:37 AM EDT (#28172) #
I'm working on my historical numbers project, and I just found out now that the Jays had a player named Joey Lawrence. Damnit, where was I for that!?

Trust me, you were better off being absent for it.
_Moffatt - Tuesday, October 05 2004 @ 09:47 AM EDT (#28173) #
I want to have hope for next season, but there seems to be no realization of what this year's main problem was...

When did you and I start agreeing, dp? I must say, I'm a little scared by all this. :)

Anyhow, Jonny German wins 100 million points for identifying Manfred Mann's version of "Blinded By The Light". He also wins a picture of Manfred Mann:



and of course, a sea creature of some sort. How about a baby tiger shark?



For his contributions, Mike Green wins a picture of Bruce Springsteen:

Mike Green - Tuesday, October 05 2004 @ 10:03 AM EDT (#28174) #
Trivia question of the day. Who led American League hitters in pitches per plate appearance (250 plus PA)?

Hint: it is not a trick question.

No peeking please.
_Paul D - Tuesday, October 05 2004 @ 10:14 AM EDT (#28175) #
To answer your two questions:

1) I don't think it matters whether Gibbons went 20-30, 40-10 or 15-35. It's too small a sample, plus with the talent on hand you wouldn't expect much improvement. What matters is how Gibbons handled the problems, what he learned, and more importantly, is he the right guy for the future. That's hard for us to tell when we're not in the organization.

2) It's too early to start thinking about what casual fans will think about next year. Maybe they'll sign Palmeiro as he goes for 3000 hits and trade for Kerry Wood. Those are a couple of moves that would excite the casual fan. I think you need to ask this question again in February.
Craig B - Tuesday, October 05 2004 @ 10:21 AM EDT (#28176) #
Who led American League hitters in pitches per plate appearance (250 plus PA)?

I'll guess Travis Hafner.
Craig B - Tuesday, October 05 2004 @ 10:23 AM EDT (#28177) #
Well, I wasn't right; Hafner was 15th among batting title qualifiers.

The answer surprised me a great deal, and no one will ever get it.

Kevin Youkilis would have lapped the field if he'd gotten to 250 PA!
Craig B - Tuesday, October 05 2004 @ 10:24 AM EDT (#28178) #
I don't think it matters whether Gibbons went 20-30, 40-10 or 15-35. It's too small a sample

Paul D nailed it. The record doesn't matter nearly as much as the man.
Mike Green - Tuesday, October 05 2004 @ 10:34 AM EDT (#28179) #
The Hardball Times has Youkilis with 253 PAs, while espn.com has him with 248 and espn.com seems to be right. Youkilis was the answer I was looking for, but I'm disqualified from guessing.
Pistol - Tuesday, October 05 2004 @ 10:37 AM EDT (#28180) #
Maybe they'll sign Palmeiro as he goes for 3000 hits and trade for Kerry Wood. Those are a couple of moves that would excite the casual fan.

Well, there's no chance of getting Kerry Wood, especially after he signed a long term deal before this season.

But why do people think that signing Palmeiro is good from a marketing perspective? Maybe you get a few more people for a couple games if he has a chance at 3000 at home, but it's not like someone's going to go out of their way to see hit 2967.
_dp - Tuesday, October 05 2004 @ 10:38 AM EDT (#28181) #
Without focusing on the record, you have to ask if there's someone with a better plan for this team than Gibbons. And the Jays didn't ask that question in a way that would allow them to find out.

Moffatt, I take your point about JP- there's been some moves he's made that are precisely the kind you wouldn't expect a "sabr-gm" to make. This is one of them. Rather than look for an unconventional solution or approach to managing the team, he goes with the known quantity. This isn't a criticism of Gibbons but rather of the process by which he was "selected".
_Ryan Day - Tuesday, October 05 2004 @ 10:55 AM EDT (#28182) #
The record doesn't matter nearly as much as the man.

I generally agree with this. But one of the recurring endorsements of Gibbons has been how well the players responded to him, and how the clubhouse was so much more relaxed after Gibbons took over.

That's almost exactly what everyone said about Carlos Tosca after Buck was fired. It may very well be true in both cases, but I wonder if it's addressing the symptoms, not the cause: If the team is mismanaged, players are going to become unhappy, and they're likely to focus their frustration the manager. Removing the unpopular manager is giong to make everyone happy, particularly if the new manager has a different style. But who's to say that a year and a half from now, the Jays won't be talking up another new manager who has a better relationship with the players than the outgoing Gibbons?

I don't have any problem with Gibbons, but I do wonder if the Jays might have been better served with a more extensive search for a manager. Open up the position, see who's interested, talk to a few guys who might not be at the top of your list. If Gibbons is still the top dog, then fine, but it never hurts to look around a bit.
_Moffatt - Tuesday, October 05 2004 @ 10:58 AM EDT (#28183) #
To be fair to JP, we don't really know how much looking around he did behind the scenes. It could have been quite extensive.
_greener - Tuesday, October 05 2004 @ 11:00 AM EDT (#28184) #
has anyone broken down and analyzed each of jp's moves since he came here (excluding draft picks)? when i think of his trades and free agent signings, it seems that his record is well below .500. that is very poor coming from a guy who complains about the low payroll and says that every move is extremely important b/c they don't have money to waste. i'd be very interested to see a breakdown of his moves and then be able to rate the gm objectively.
_Ryan Day - Tuesday, October 05 2004 @ 11:08 AM EDT (#28185) #
To be fair to JP, we don't really know how much looking around he did behind the scenes. It could have been quite extensive.

True, of course, but he's going to be limited if he's looking during the season. Teams aren't as likely to let their coaches go off to interviews in August.

To draw an analogy: Recently I had to hire for a vacancy in my department. There was one candidate who had already been doing some work for us; he did it quite well, and was a nice guy and easy to work with. I was basically about 99% sure we'd hire him, and looked at the other interviews as a formality.

But another candidate turned out to be very impressive, and actually made my decision quite difficult. In the end I did go with the experienced option, but that second candidate is certainly going to the top of the list if we have another position available. I'd say I'd hire her as the bench coach, but the analogy kind of breaks down there.
_Ducey - Tuesday, October 05 2004 @ 11:32 AM EDT (#28186) #
Who cares who the manager is next year? Its not like if they steal Bobby Cox they are going to win the series.

The guy they need for next year needs to set the tone with the young guys and be able to stay upbeat while Adams mails another one into the seats, Hinske's average goes below his weight, and the Yankees roll in with a $200 million dollar payroll.

It is going to be a developmental year. You think Lou Pinella is going to sign on for that?

Gibbons has shown he will have patience, keep the player's spirits up but (apparently) demand an effort. He has run a good bullpen and unlike Tosca was willing to play some rookies. Plus, he stapled Dave Berg to the bench. The last point is enough to give him the job for me :-p

Why go through a big search when you have the guy who will fit the bill? If he is not the guy in 2006 or 2007 to get you the extra 5 wins you need, then you can do your big search.

I think you need different managers for different teams. The team they have now will be different than the one they will have as a contender. The manager will likely be different too.
_Scott Levy - Tuesday, October 05 2004 @ 11:36 AM EDT (#28187) #
has anyone broken down and analyzed each of jp's moves since he came here (excluding draft picks)? when i think of his trades and free agent signings, it seems that his record is well below .500. that is very poor coming from a guy who complains about the low payroll and says that every move is extremely important b/c they don't have money to waste. i'd be very interested to see a breakdown of his moves and then be able to rate the gm objectively.

Off the top of my head......

Trades
Koch for Hinske and Miller
Stewart and Gassner for Kielty
Kielty for Lilly
Werth for Frasor
Hendrickson and Nin for Speier
Rouse and Mowday for Lidle
Phelps for Crozier
Izturis and Quantrill for Prokopec and Ricketts
Lopez for Arnold
Perry for Griffin
Kremblas (?) for Wilson
Mondesi for Wiggins
Fullmer for Cooper
Gonzalez for Heredia and Deshaine (?)
PTBNL or cash for Menechino (I think)

Free agents/claimed off waivers
Catalanotto
Batista
Hentgen
Ligtenberg
Adams
Bordick
Sturtze
Tam
Creek
de los Santos
Towers
Gomez
Berg
Myers
Zaun
Kershner
Frederick
etc.

Rule 5
Thurman
Lopez
Haines

Fill in any I missed, but I think that's almost all of it.
_Blue in SK - Tuesday, October 05 2004 @ 11:38 AM EDT (#28188) #
I am pleasantly surprised by the comments that Greg Meyers might return. If so, Zaun is as good as going, going... since they could platoon Q and Meyers. The one thing that Zaun had going for him was his switch hitting ability.

As for Hinske and his regression, maybe another platoon situation is the answer for 3rd base - although strangely enough Eric hits lefties better than righthanders. Maybe Frankie M. could be the platoon partner.

I also like the idea of not spending any money on a 2nd back up infielder...find some minor league FA that can pick the ball and give him the league minimum.
Craig B - Tuesday, October 05 2004 @ 11:50 AM EDT (#28189) #
This site is certified 27% EVIL by the Gematriculator
_greener - Tuesday, October 05 2004 @ 12:01 PM EDT (#28190) #
thanks scott for the breakdown of jp's moves. looking at that list, i think his best acquistions have been the bench fillers (bordick, myers, zaun, gomez). the only good trade was acquiring lilly, but that's after getting rid of a guy (stewart) who almost became mvp that same season. can anyone say that jp can be given a grade higher than 'D' for his first few seasons? he may be good at drafting (yet to be determined), but if he does so poorly in other areas, then he should stick to being a scout, and leave the gm position to someone else.
_Daryn - Tuesday, October 05 2004 @ 12:03 PM EDT (#28191) #
I am working on my "if I were GM" chart and boy does it ever matter whether or not we are willing to go into 2005 with Batista as the closer.

If Yes, I say we sign, Myers/Zaun or Equiv, Gomez or Equiv, Menchino (arbit), Speier (arbit), replace Woodward with Adams, Sign two FA's to replace Carlos and Berg for about $4Mil each...

IF we need a closer, suddenly those two Free Agent bats are $2Mil each... ugh..

Of course all this accepts that we are still waiting for Hill, Quiroz, League, McGowan, Adams and maybe Gross and Chacin to become quality major leaguers for 2005-06 and that we'll some how sell enough tickets to keep from being moved to Washington..

Oh, also I'd offer Minor League deals only, to Clark, Pond, de los Santos, Lopez, Nakamura, Douglass,

Someone asked about JP's moves... I don't think his major league moves have mattered very much, what DOES matter is the combined successes of the Minor League System.
Mike Green - Tuesday, October 05 2004 @ 12:10 PM EDT (#28192) #
I don't think his major league moves have mattered very much, what DOES matter is the combined successes of the Minor League System.

I think that both matter.
_greener - Tuesday, October 05 2004 @ 12:15 PM EDT (#28193) #
"Someone asked about JP's moves... I don't think his major league moves have mattered very much, what DOES matter is the combined successes of the Minor League System."

I think that's a ridiculous comment. World Series aren't won in the minor leagues. I think people are buying into JP's mantra that we need to stock the system with good talent and then be self-sufficient, etc.. meanwhile, why should we trust the moves being made in the minors when the moves he makes in the majors have been abysmal.
where's luke prokopec? jason arnold? john ford griffin?
We were told that the Jays would have a solid team in 2004, and contend in 2005. Now that's being bumped to 2006-2007. We've had a decade of ineptitude in Toronto baseball, and it doesn't seem that it will end any time soon. i get as excited about prospects as the next guy, but we need to see some results, and in three years we've seen less than nothing.
_Paul D - Tuesday, October 05 2004 @ 12:19 PM EDT (#28194) #
Pistol, I don't think that Palmeiro would make much of a difference. However, exciting the casual fan seems to be a pretty low threshold. I think you'd see a modest boost of about 2000 fans a game for any home games when he's between 2990 and 3000 hits. That's about it.

As for Kerry Wood, most of my non Jays related baseball knowledge comes from primer, and the Cubs fans over there seem to be bitterly disapointed in him and hoping he's traded. I didn't realize he'd just signed a contract. Really though, the situation with Wood isn't the point. The point is that the Jays could end up making some move that will knock your socks off, and it's too early to tell.
_Daryn - Tuesday, October 05 2004 @ 12:19 PM EDT (#28195) #
I think that's a ridiculous comment.

It may BE a ridiculous comment, in so much as team success.. but since that's where he's been doing his work, its the only fair place to judge his moves... now, if its the STRATEGY you disagree with, then fine....

the mistake was overselling the success of last year, and the disappointment is real...

On the topic of Cash returning, we know we need a Left-Handed DH, do you suppose he'd take that job? It COULD be a fit, at least for one year... then maybe we can sign a $6Mil 1B and actually get someone
Craig B - Tuesday, October 05 2004 @ 12:20 PM EDT (#28196) #
We were told that the Jays would have a solid team in 2004, and contend in 2005.

Um, that was us, and the media, telling you this. Not the Jays themselves.

We were wrong.

And as for this...

We've had a decade of ineptitude in Toronto baseball

That's not true. In the eleven years since the last championship, the team has been over .500 four times and within five games of .500 another four. Three bad years in eleven years isn't a "decade of ineptitude".
_Paul D - Tuesday, October 05 2004 @ 12:21 PM EDT (#28197) #
Oh yeah..
Moffatt Asks: Are there any reasons for the casual fan to believe that the Jays won't finish in last again next year? I'm afraid I don't see too many.

Four Words:
Tampa Bay Devil Rays

(Yeah, I know they're getting better and they've got some great prospects, this is just my attempt at humour)
_Daryn - Tuesday, October 05 2004 @ 12:22 PM EDT (#28198) #
I meant CRASH, (Myers)

if we sign Myers to the Lefty DH role, offer Arbration to Speier and Menechino, resign Gomez and Zaun to the back up jobs, then we'd only have one new face on the team next year, (not counting Adams)

Can the "sell" that?? Hopefully that new guy is a power hitting, Jim Thome like 1B, ... but still???
_dp - Tuesday, October 05 2004 @ 12:29 PM EDT (#28199) #
i get as excited about prospects as the next guy, but we need to see some results, and in three years we've seen less than nothing

Hard to argue with that sometimes. Looking back today on the hope I had for '04, it really sucks not just the season they had but the outcomes of it. This is a team that went from being an offensive machine with a shaky rotation and bullpen problems to one with no offense, a decent rotation, and bullpen problems. The organization's best power prospect since Delgado is gone, traded for a bit player. A potentially solid outfielder was dealt and played a crucial role in another team's playoff drive. The best hitter in the history of the organization's walking away. I think JP needs to shoulder the blame for the team's offensive struggles, and if they hit like this again, you have to start wondering where his strengths as a GM lie, other than in cutting payroll and acquiring marginal semi-regulars.

That said, they could have a fun team in 2005. They'll be solid up the middle, but weak offensively on the corners. The rotation, if Doc's back at full strength, should feature Bautista as the #4 starter, and that's not bad at all. (Bautista in the pen would mean the signing was a huge mistake- salary: Bautista+Lightenberg= Benitez; I'd rather see him dealt) 2005 will be the test. They have to be better than '04 by virtue of having Doc all year; I think it's a question of how much better they'll be.
_Moffatt - Tuesday, October 05 2004 @ 12:29 PM EDT (#28200) #
(Yeah, I know they're getting better and they've got some great prospects, this is just my attempt at humour)

With the right free agents, they've got a pretty good shot at being a .500 team next year.
_Moffatt - Tuesday, October 05 2004 @ 12:31 PM EDT (#28201) #
The organization's best power prospect since Delgado is gone, traded for a bit player.

The Jays traded Shawn Green? When the hell did that happen?!? :)
Craig B - Tuesday, October 05 2004 @ 12:31 PM EDT (#28202) #
Daryn means "Crash" instead of "Cash" obviously when discussing a DH from the lefty side. I'm not sure Myers is really a fit anymore; the Jays would probably prefer, if they had a platoon DH spot to make available, to give the job to someone younger who might be around in a couple of years. Trying to grab a younger player, maybe a retread of some kind, would be a good way to go.

Would the White Sox be open to dealing away Carl Everett? He's got $4 million coming to him, maybe something could be worked out where some cash could come with him. Of course, they may well want him, and a player of Everett's rep may not be welcome in Toronto.

Damon Minor is the type of player I'm generally thinking of, though. A lefty 1B/DH type who's worn out his welcome elsewhere but has some talent.
_greener - Tuesday, October 05 2004 @ 12:36 PM EDT (#28203) #
"That's not true. In the eleven years since the last championship, the team has been over .500 four times and within five games of .500 another four. Three bad years in eleven years isn't a "decade of ineptitude"."

Ok, maybe not ineptitude, but mediocrity at it's best (or worst).
_Spicol - Tuesday, October 05 2004 @ 12:37 PM EDT (#28204) #
looking at that list, i think his best acquistions have been the bench fillers (bordick, myers, zaun, gomez). the only good trade was acquiring lilly, but that's after getting rid of a guy (stewart) who almost became mvp that same season.

With all of JP's trades, you really need to consider the financial impact of the move in order to accurately judge how good it was. The Koch trade, the Stewart trade, Quantrill, Mondesi, Fullmer, Gonzalez...all were deals made with $$$ as one of the main concerns. In that respect, Mondesi for Wiggins isn't just one of JP's best moves, it's one of the best Blue Jay trades ever.
_dp - Tuesday, October 05 2004 @ 12:37 PM EDT (#28205) #
The Jays traded Shawn Green? When the hell did that happen?!? :)

OTH, neither Green nor Wells showed the power Phelps did in the minors. A better hitter, but without the raw power Phelps displayed...

I dunno, I never saw Green becoming a 40+ home run guy when he was coming up. How the mighty have fallen though? Looks like he's done as one of the league's elite hitters.
Craig B - Tuesday, October 05 2004 @ 12:38 PM EDT (#28206) #
but mediocrity at it's best (or worst)

Yup.
_Moffatt - Tuesday, October 05 2004 @ 12:40 PM EDT (#28207) #
I dunno, I never saw Green becoming a 40+ home run guy when he was coming up.

Well, it would be hard to, as the guy seemed to spend about 30 seconds in the minor leagues.

I always figured he'd hit for power as he had the frame for it and was a 1st round draftpick.
_dp - Tuesday, October 05 2004 @ 12:41 PM EDT (#28208) #
Mondesi for Wiggins isn't just one of JP's best moves, it's one of the best Blue Jay trades ever.

Yeah. But it was helped by a couple of really bad plays by Yankee RFs in key spots and Mondesi's undeserved rep as a great defender. JP was slick to pull that off, but it really hinged on Big Stein's pride being hurt by plays that got blown up in the NY press.
_Paul D - Tuesday, October 05 2004 @ 12:41 PM EDT (#28209) #
With the right free agents, they've got a pretty good shot at being a .500 team next year.

I will bet you 4 cuttlefish, 55.98 million points, and a digital picture of Johhny Cash that Tampa Bay is under .500 next year. And I'll say something nice about Western.
_Geoff - Tuesday, October 05 2004 @ 12:43 PM EDT (#28210) #
Here's a potential 2005 roster at 53 million dollars

all salaries in millions of dollars

C: Zaun 1.0 (1 year deal)
1B: Palmeiro 3.0 (1 year deal)
2B: Hudson 0.75 (as part of a new 4 year deal)
3B: Hinske 3.0
SS: Adams 0.3
LF: Alou 7.0 (1 year deal)
CF: Wells 2.9
RF: Rios 0.325
DH: Cat 2.7

C: Myers 0.5 (NRI)
IF: Gomez 0.8 (1 year)
IF: Menechino 0.6
OF: Reed 0.325

SP: Doc 10.5
SP: Lilly 3.1
SP: Rusch 2.0 (1 year)
SP: Bush 0.325
SP: Chacin 0.3

CLS: Batista 4.75
SET: Frasor 0.325
SET: League 0.3
MI: Speier 2.0 (1 year)
MI: Hammond 2.5 (1 year)
ROOGY: Ligter 2.5
LOOGY: Trever Miller 1.2 (1 year)
_dp - Tuesday, October 05 2004 @ 12:44 PM EDT (#28211) #
http://tsf.waymoresports.thestar.com/thestar/baseball/player.cgi?0413

He did have abou 1200 PAs in the minors. Not a ton, but enough to say a bit. I loved how Ash had to get rid of Olerud because he and Green were too similar- as if that was a bad thing. Olerud for Person- Worst Jays Trade Ever? They even paid his salary...
_dp - Tuesday, October 05 2004 @ 12:46 PM EDT (#28212) #
Dude, there's no way we want Rusch- looks more like a fluke than a tunred corner...
Joe - Tuesday, October 05 2004 @ 12:49 PM EDT (#28213) #
http://me.woot.net
dp.

Miguel's last name is spelled BATISTA.

There is no 'u'.
Craig B - Tuesday, October 05 2004 @ 01:01 PM EDT (#28214) #
there's no way we want Rusch- looks more like a fluke than a tunred corner

Actually, he looks like a turned corner to me. Rusch's problem was always mostly with giving up hits on balls in play... his peripherals were usually relatively good. This year his LD% was higher than average, but not the punishing 30%+ we've seen from him in the past.
_Marc - Tuesday, October 05 2004 @ 01:02 PM EDT (#28215) #
Rusch is a national league style player through and through. No way he should ever come back to the AL. He needs that automatic out in the ninth hole. And he is definitely not a number three starter... fourth at best, more likely a fifth.

I doubt Alou would be willing to sign with a non-contending team given his age and big power season. Plus I doubt his knees and back could hold up on turf.

I think the Jays burned the Trever Miller bridge last offseason when they lowballed him.

If you like Cubbies though, how about Ryan Dempster? If he can get back into form after surgery he would be a wonderful number three guy with 200 inning capability. If not, then he's a great long or middle guy in the pen.
_Ryan Lind - Tuesday, October 05 2004 @ 01:03 PM EDT (#28216) #
Weeee. Playoffs start now on Sportsnet.

Why is Joe Morgan yelling?
_Blue in SK - Tuesday, October 05 2004 @ 01:04 PM EDT (#28217) #
http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Baseball/MLB/Toronto/home.html
There are 2 additional articles on the Slam website regarding the passing of John Cerutti, both are very good.

And since I do not know enough HTML to provide 2 seperate links, I have linked to the main Blue Jays page on Slam. COMN.
_dp - Tuesday, October 05 2004 @ 01:10 PM EDT (#28218) #
Miguel's last name is spelled BATISTA

o. they must've traded bautista :>

Rusch, just remembering him from the Mets, always seemed like he was close to being a great pitcher. And he'd have good stretches where he'd make you a believer. The fact that he looked good for half a year's worth of starts makes me a little weary because he tends to be streaky. Maybe a confidence thing, which it seemed like in NY, that he's put behind him. He seemed to get intimidated on the mound, even when he was pitching well...
_Ryan Lind - Tuesday, October 05 2004 @ 01:11 PM EDT (#28219) #
Thanks for the links, Blue.
_Magpie - Tuesday, October 05 2004 @ 01:12 PM EDT (#28220) #
Can we pretend that Manfred Mann didn't ruin this Springsteen classic?

No, we can't.

Odd, Manfred's second band was good at reworking obscure Dylan songs, so his fourth band tried the same thing with Springsteen... Not so good, although this was a hit.

Woody Williams is pitching to Jayson Werth.

Woody Williams and Carlos Almanzar for Joey Hamilton. And Dave Stewart wonders why he can't get a GM job...
_MatO - Tuesday, October 05 2004 @ 01:16 PM EDT (#28221) #
Is the $53M payroll confirmed? We now have two sources now, Davidi and the Score, which mention that figure.
_MatO - Tuesday, October 05 2004 @ 01:23 PM EDT (#28222) #
Odd, Manfred's second band was good at reworking obscure Dylan songs

Yeah but wasn't everyone good at reworking obscure Dylan songs? It really wasn't very hard to improve on the original.
_mr predictor - Tuesday, October 05 2004 @ 01:25 PM EDT (#28223) #
"Who led American League hitters in pitches per plate appearance (250 plus PA)?"

Apologies if Youkilis was the answer, but if not, then I'd like to guess Mark Bellhorn - he was near the top of the league in walks and strikeouts.

Having said that the "no one will ever get it" comment has me thinking it could be Cruz jr.
_Ryan Lind - Tuesday, October 05 2004 @ 01:31 PM EDT (#28224) #
Here's a good one:

Who leads the AL in P/PA with a min of 25 PA's? :)
_Magpie - Tuesday, October 05 2004 @ 01:39 PM EDT (#28225) #
That's almost exactly what everyone said about Carlos Tosca after Buck was fired.

Managers on the verge of getting fired are always tense, wondering if this is is the day they get the boot. It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy - you have to fire the guy just to change the mood of the ball club.

Of course, some managers are always tense and uptight. Hello Jimy!

a guy (stewart) who almost became mvp

Not so much a trade as dumping a free agent and his salary while you could still get a warm body for him. Spinning it into Ted Lilly is almost too good to be true. Most salary/impending free agent dumps don't get comparable value in exchange.

And the idea that Stewart was a serious MVP candidate in 2003... is just silly. Someone give me whatever Jayson Stark was smoking...

a DH from the lefty side. I'm not sure Myers is really a fit anymore;

I don't really think Myers is that good a hitter - he was in 2003, and he's a good hitter for a catcher.

You do have to wonder if he's going to come back and be the 1986 Buck Martinez. Catchers in their late 30s can't afford to lose a couple of steps of foot speed - they don't have any to spare. Remember Buck in 1986? He was so slow after the broken leg that the left side of the infield basically set up in shallow LF because they knew that even if they had to relay the ball to first they could still throw him out. There was just no place for him to hit the ball.

Now Myers' injury wasn't nearly that serious. It is taking a long long time to heal. Coach said he was still limping a month ago, some three months after it happened. That can happen with ankles, especially if you've never hurt it before. Myers has had a ton of injuries in his career, from torn rotator cuffs to torn knee cartilage and everything in between, but I'm not aware of any ankle injuries.

I have some bitter experience with ankle injuries - the first time I seriously sprained each ankle (right ankle when I was 18, left ankle when I was 32) - it took months for it to heal. Subsequent sprains (always the right ankle) healed much much quicker. But the first sprain of each ankle had me limping for two months. One can hope this is what's happened with Myers.

Rusch's problem was always mostly with giving up hits on balls in play

Which, to me anyway, strongly suggests that he just got lucky this year.
_Magpie - Tuesday, October 05 2004 @ 01:41 PM EDT (#28226) #
...wasn't everyone good at reworking obscure Dylan songs? It really wasn't very hard to improve on the original.

Blasphemer.
_Wunderbat - Tuesday, October 05 2004 @ 01:47 PM EDT (#28227) #
A lot of people think there is a significant chance that Delgado could be an Oriole next year, but I don't know if I buy that. I guess it comes down to whether he wants to go to a contender or is more interested in money, and whether the Orioles get some pitching or not. As it stands, if one inserts Delgado into that Baltimore lineup, I see the 2003 Blue Jays without a Cy Young winner. I don't see that as a contender, as the Jays weren't that close with Roy. However, if he is going for money, that won't stop him.

As for Carlos' wishes, he has confused me. After the last game he stated he was interested in playing for a contender, and he wanted to win. But this is somewhat contrary to his earlier decision to not waive his no-trade clause (not completely opposite, although). Thus, I am bewildered by his motivations. But if he is looking for a contender in Baltimore, in my opinion he better wait until they get some pitchers first.
Mike Green - Tuesday, October 05 2004 @ 01:54 PM EDT (#28228) #
Actually, he looks like a turned corner to me. Rusch's problem was always mostly with giving up hits on balls in play... his peripherals were usually relatively good. This year his LD% was higher than average, but not the punishing 30%+ we've seen from him in the past.

It could be luck, it could be a turned corner, or it could be that Rusch has somehow benefited from improved defence in Chicago. Rusch gives up a large number of line drives and fly balls, and few popups. Corey Patterson led the league in ZR, and Alou in left was also good. On the other hand, Podsednik and Jenkins were about as good last year (at least if you use ZR).

Who knows, maybe it's because your leftfielder plays shallower in Wrigley than in Miller Park and right-handed hitters naturally react by trying to uppercut it and hit it out of the ballpark? Strangely, Rusch did much better in Wrigley than in Miller Park 2001-2003 as well.

It's a real puzzle to me, but if the price was right, I'd gamble on Rusch.
_MatO - Tuesday, October 05 2004 @ 02:37 PM EDT (#28229) #
Blasphemer.

I really love Dylan. I just picked up Highway 61 Revisited and none of those songs need to be redone. But sometimes Bob just seemed to be in a hurry to finish a song (Off the top of my head - All Along the Watchtower, If Not for You).
Mike Green - Tuesday, October 05 2004 @ 02:54 PM EDT (#28230) #
Actually, legend has it that Dylan told Leonard Cohen that he just whipped off songs in a couple of minutes. Cohen who would labour for days was flabbergasted.
_My Names not Ry - Tuesday, October 05 2004 @ 02:58 PM EDT (#28231) #
i believe to add to the trades, we also sent "future considerations" along with Lilly for Keilty, and ate a bunch of money to get rid of Mondesi.
_R Billie - Tuesday, October 05 2004 @ 03:16 PM EDT (#28232) #
Is the $53M payroll confirmed? We now have two sources now, Davidi and the Score, which mention that figure.

I haven't seen it confirmed anywhere. I suspect it's speculation.
_NickInNYC - Tuesday, October 05 2004 @ 03:28 PM EDT (#28233) #
I've been disappointed not so much with J.P.'s trades, but his handling of contracts. Both the Hinske and Catalanotto were poor signings. J.P. signed Hinske at his peak. Did anyone really think that Hinske was going to improve on his 2002 numbers? If not, then why not wait a year? The advantages far outweigh the disadvantages:

1. You get him cheap for 2003
2. You get to see if he regresses - if so, you can sign a long term contract in winter of 2003 for less.

The disadvantage of course is that he plays even better and then tying him up long term costs a ton. But the chances of Hinske going, say, 410/530, were very, very slim.
_A - Tuesday, October 05 2004 @ 03:39 PM EDT (#28234) #
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1895380
COMN for an ESPN story on an SI story that goes into the Bonds-Sheffield relationship through Sheffield's eyes. Quite the perspective.
_NickInNYC - Tuesday, October 05 2004 @ 03:42 PM EDT (#28235) #
And, from I can determine of the building plan, I think it's misguided.

J.P. is saving Delgado money so he can spread it around to acquire a number of lesser players - Batistas and Speiers as it were. Now, I have nothing against Batista and Spiers and think they were shrewed pickups. However, a team of average to slightly above average players which it seems J.P. is assembling is doomed to be a third place type team. The upside is pretty well known.

The alternative would be to resign Delgado (especially since he'll come cheaper than he would otherwise due to hometown discount and this years' injury), let young players play where J.P. would otherwise have filled in with the above mentioned middling-type players, and hope a couple of the youngster break through. Sure, the young players might not break through and you end up in last place. However, even if it's something of a longshot, I'd much prefer the team to have the chance to breakout and compete than being solidly third place.
_R Billie - Tuesday, October 05 2004 @ 03:55 PM EDT (#28236) #
J.P. is saving Delgado money so he can spread it around to acquire a number of lesser players - Batistas and Speiers as it were. Now, I have nothing against Batista and Spiers and think they were shrewed pickups. However, a team of average to slightly above average players which it seems J.P. is assembling is doomed to be a third place type team. The upside is pretty well known.

I absolutely 100% agree. As I said in another thread, I would MUCH rather use the available $15 million or so to get one or two high impact free agents rather than five or six middle of the road guys.

Why are we spending money on impact free agents when the team won't win a World Series? Because you still have to field a respectable team. One that the city can be proud of and support. Buy in to a plan comes with success, not with empty promises. The Jays have depth in the form of young players who are coming or are already here. They have very little in the way of established veterans who can lead the team. I don't want to go into 2005 wondering if the Jays have enough talent to avoid a second consecutive last place finish.

If I had a choice between Delgado for $10 million and a packages of a #3 level starter for $4 million, an okay 1B for $3 million, a cheap DH, and a couple of cheap relievers, there's no question in my mind that I stick with Delgado and hope the younger players like Rios and Adams give you unexpected goods. For the same reason if you're running a team in an auction league, you don't trade an expensive star for several cheaper mediocore pieces. UNLESS those cheaper pieces were significantly undervalued.
Pistol - Tuesday, October 05 2004 @ 03:57 PM EDT (#28237) #
It's funny, I just went back and was reading through the threads when Hinske and Wells signed their contract.

There was more concern about signing Wells to a long term deal than there was Hinske.

I also found this:

Eric Hinske (25 year-old rookie)
566 AB, 99 R, 158 H, 38 2B, 2 3B, 24 HR, 84 RBI, 13/14 SB, 77 BB, 138 K, .279/.365/.481
Jason Giambi (25 years old, 1st full season)
536 AB, 84 R, 156 H, 40 2B,1 3B, 20 HR, 79 RBI, 0/1 SB, 51 BB, 95 K, .291/.355/.481


There was some discussion that Hinske might not improve on his rookie year, but I can't find any place where someone suggested that it was a bad move at the time.
_NickInNYC - Tuesday, October 05 2004 @ 05:05 PM EDT (#28238) #
I'm not saying anyone did suggest it was a bad move at the time. This is all admittedly hindsight and second guessing. However, the argument I presented above still holds I think.
_6-4-3 - Tuesday, October 05 2004 @ 05:05 PM EDT (#28239) #
I was playing around with a sortable win shares chart last week, and going into the last week of the season, the Least Valuable Player of the AL, according to Win Shares Above Average, was none other than Eric Hinske. If memory serves me right, he was only "more valuable" than Hideo Nomo of the Dodgers.

It was probably a bad deal, but it did create a lot of buzz at the time, which might've been why it was done : "Hey, we're the Jays! We can keep our star players! We're not at all like the Expos!"
_NickInNYC - Tuesday, October 05 2004 @ 05:12 PM EDT (#28240) #
Actually, R Billie, I think if your goal is to make sure you don't finish in last place, you should probably disagree with me. If you don't want to finish in last, then sign a bunch of safe, middling guys. A team of Catalanottos and Batistas won't finish last. They'll be solidly mediochre. Splurging on a high end FA, however, means that there is the chance you finish last if that FA gets hurt (a la Delgado/Halladay this year) or if the young players surrounding him flop. If one or two of your mediochre guys get hurt, it doesn't matter as much because you've collected a bunch of them.

I really don't care about worrying about finishing last. If that's the price to pay for high upside, I'm all for it. What I don't want is a middling, boring team that is built to finish no higher and no lower than 3rd.
_R Billie - Tuesday, October 05 2004 @ 05:21 PM EDT (#28241) #
Well my problem is if the Jays go with a team full of middling players, they will probably be bested by Baltimore and Tampa Bay who also have teams of middling players though with big upsides in the case of the Rays.

So ironically, I think that their best chance of NOT finishing last is to have assets that differentiate them from these teams. Delgado is one such asset though the Orioles have Tejada, Lopez, and others so they might have the Jays beat anyway. But still, running out the equivalent of Catalanatto in LF, 1B, and DH (assuming they exist on this off-season's market) is not likely to get you past the O's and may make it a struggle to get past the Rays who might actually have as much money to spend as the Jays depending on what happens.
_Four Seamer - Tuesday, October 05 2004 @ 05:36 PM EDT (#28242) #
http://www.sportsnet.ca/mlb/columnist.jsp;jsessionid=CLKJBGFNEMNI?content=20041004_172421_4424
Marty York is usually given a pretty hard time around here, and for good reason, frankly, but full credit to him for a nice article on John Cerutti (COMN).
_DaveInNYC - Tuesday, October 05 2004 @ 08:41 PM EDT (#28243) #
So now it would appear that I have a long-lost brother, howdy Nick!

"I don't think we'll be knocking on the door next year," the third-year GM said. "This is going to take time to build up. It may take five years, it may take 10 years after I'm gone.

He's kidding, right? Sometimes J.P.'s non-chalent attitude scares me. This isn't the first time he's made a quote like this or similar to this in nature. Then, when he complains about payroll and never being able to compete in this division, it kind of drains you as a fan and makes you lower expectations.

Hopefully he's got some tricks up his sleeve.
_Ron - Tuesday, October 05 2004 @ 09:06 PM EDT (#28244) #
I'm curious to see what Da Box posters would think of JP after next season if they finish in 4th or 5th place and let's say win less than 75 games.

Does he still get a free pass because he's handcuffed with a 50-53 mil payroll and his kids haven't had 3-5 years to blossom yet or will you start to doubt the abilities of JP as a GM?
_Ryan Lind - Tuesday, October 05 2004 @ 09:38 PM EDT (#28245) #
That depends on so many things, Ron.

If the Jays finish last with a bunch of promising prospects that haven't quite found their groove yet...then I'm fine. If they finish last with a bunch of mediocre 30-year olds, well, then that would suck.

You must look at more than just the team's record when assessing a General Manager. This seems to be the biggest problem with the Toronto media.
_Moffatt - Tuesday, October 05 2004 @ 09:40 PM EDT (#28246) #
Does he still get a free pass because he's handcuffed with a 50-53 mil payroll and his kids haven't had 3-5 years to blossom yet or will you start to doubt the abilities of JP as a GM?

How exactly is JP getting a free pass? Have you read what the Bauxites have been saying? A number of us, myself included, have been very critical of some of the decisions that have been made, while praising others.
_Ryan Lind - Tuesday, October 05 2004 @ 09:40 PM EDT (#28247) #
I mean, it's asinine to just say "Well, if the Jays lose 100 games next year, then JP's bad. But if they win 100 games then he's good!" You simply can't do that. You need to look at the moves he made, the players he has on the roster, the health of the team, etcetera.

JP could make a bunch of brilliant moves next year and the team could still lose 90 games.
_Moffatt - Tuesday, October 05 2004 @ 09:48 PM EDT (#28248) #
I disagree. If the Yankees have a bus crash and get injured and the Jays gain some games in the standings because of it, J.P. should get full credit. :)
_Ron - Tuesday, October 05 2004 @ 10:25 PM EDT (#28249) #
I brought up earlier in the season how imo JP hasn't done a good job with the Jays and I got a bunch of replies stating I shouldn't just judge him on what's happening on the major league level but also look at what's happening in the minors. I was told you have to factor in his draft picks and to see how they pan out. Well how many years should people give in order to evaluate draft picks? 5 years?

I'm not saying his draft picks have been bad (in fact Bush and Adams have looked solid) but it seems like Pro JP supporters always use the same arguments

A)You have to take into account his draft picks
B) You need to realize he has a small payroll of 50 million to work with

I give a lot of credit to JP for answering questions from the fans every Wednesday but I have really cooled off on JP as the Jays GM.

I wasn't a Jays/baseball fan when JP was initially hired but I'm curious to know who else did the Jays interview for the GM position?
Named For Hank - Tuesday, October 05 2004 @ 10:57 PM EDT (#28250) #
Ron, it's true that the same people make the same arguments. And they do it because nothing has changed in their arguments in the hours / days / weeks since it was brought up last.

And I don't necessarily think you need to wait for the picks to hit the majors to evaluate the draft decisions -- you can look at them on their minor league teams and evaluate them relative to other draft picks from the same year, and evaluate the overall minor league teams, which I believe all did well except for AAA this year.

It's much easier to wait until they hit the majors and then evaluate them.
_6-4-3 - Tuesday, October 05 2004 @ 10:59 PM EDT (#28251) #
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/gammons/story?id=1277942
I googled this a few times, and found a Gammons article (COMN) that mentioned interviews the Jays did:

Former Rangers GM Doug Melvin
Dave Stewart
Twins GM Terry Ryan
Buck Showalter
"several other candidates"

The big fish that got away was Paul DePodesta. Stewart was generally mentioned as the #2 guy after JP.
_NickInNYC - Tuesday, October 05 2004 @ 11:47 PM EDT (#28253) #
IIRC Dombrowsky was also one of the candidates.
_Loveshack - Wednesday, October 06 2004 @ 12:04 AM EDT (#28254) #
Both the Hinske and Catalanotto were poor signings.

Isn't kind of unfair to say the Catalanatto signing is poor when it hasn't even started yet?

You're judging the Hinske signing to be a poor one based on his results even though at the time it looked like a decent contract based on his past accomplishments. Then you turn around and do the opposite with the Cat signing, judging it based entirely on his past accomplishments. I dont think you can have it both ways.
_6-4-3 - Wednesday, October 06 2004 @ 12:05 AM EDT (#28255) #
Good point. I'd forgotten that one. I seem to remember an article where Griffen called for Dombrowski to be hired for GM. One of ther comment I dug out was "don't rule out Seattle GM Pat Gillick returning to Toronto" (after Seattle's 2001 season). Now that would've been fun.
_Paul D - Wednesday, October 06 2004 @ 12:15 AM EDT (#28256) #
JKCL, your point is solid, but Lightenberg would have a contract for next year. Not at what he's scheduled to make, but relievers with his history of success can find a team, particularly when he's only had one bad year.

I'm also not convinced on Batista. Is there anyone out there we can compare him to?

As for Werth for Frasor, I think the question is, could the Jays have done better for Frason? There was no room for Werth, he was getting traded no matter what. So is an above average relief pitcher the best they could do?

Would Lopez be the starter here in Toronto over Adams? I don't think so. Also, I'd hardly say that Lopez has a history of success. He's another guy I think we need to wait on.

Agreed on Hinske, and I think you're probably right on Cat.
Craig B - Wednesday, October 06 2004 @ 12:15 AM EDT (#28257) #
will you start to doubt the abilities of JP as a GM?

I already do doubt his abilities, Ron. Almost everyone here does. Doubt is just that; Ricciardi isn't a "proven" GM yet, not until he gets time to prove himself. I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt, because I think he's earned it so far, but that doesn't make me free from doubt.

You have already tried him, condemned him, and hung him. Others are keeping an open mind, and you can't stand that, which is too bad.
_G.T. - Wednesday, October 06 2004 @ 12:19 AM EDT (#28258) #
I seem to remember an article where Griffen called for Dombrowski to be hired for GM.

I don't remember Griffin actually calling for Dombrowski, but I do recall the column from (IIRC) last year when he admitted that, in retrospect, he was wrong, as JP had turned out to be a better choice.
_Ron - Wednesday, October 06 2004 @ 12:32 AM EDT (#28259) #
You have already tried him, condemned him, and hung him. Others are keeping an open mind, and you can't stand that, which is too bad.

I'm not a fan of JP's performance thus far but I don't think I've hung him yet, that's for after next season:)

I have no problem with what other people think of JP (good or bad) but I find it unusually very positive here especially after what JP has done so far.

On a semi-related note JP actually did an interview for a local sports station out in Vancouver recently which was kinda neat since I don't hear much Jays coverage on the local airwaves.
_Geoff - Wednesday, October 06 2004 @ 09:34 AM EDT (#28260) #
The thing about the Werth/Frasor trade is that it came after over a year of completely mishandling Werth - He bounced from the minors to the majors, without getting many ABs as a 4th or even 5th outfielder. In general he was treated here more like a Howie Clark than like a Gabe Gross, and this treatment undoubtedly hurt his value. Then he was traded when his value was at his absolute lowest. With all that considered, JP actually got a decent return for Werth's value at the time. However, Werth's production since the trade only hammers home the fact that Jays management completely devalued a strong asset they had and painted themselves into a corner where they made a trade in which it was clear to all observers that they would get a lesser return....In general I am quite willing to give JP the benefit of the doubt, but the Werth situation of 2003/04 is an area where there JP clearly deserves criticism.
_NickInNYC - Wednesday, October 06 2004 @ 09:50 AM EDT (#28261) #
"I dont think you can have it both ways."

My preferred way of judging a deal/signing is not based on results, but was it a good deal at the time given the information available.

It may look like I'm judging the Hinske signing based on results, but I'm not. I'm using the results to go back and look at the Hinske signing. That it was probably his peak season and that waiting a year couldn't have heart, I think should have been known/surmised at the time of the signing.
_R Billie - Thursday, October 07 2004 @ 10:28 AM EDT (#28262) #
However, Werth's production since the trade only hammers home the fact that Jays management completely devalued a strong asset they had and painted themselves into a corner where they made a trade in which it was clear to all observers that they would get a lesser return

I remember they brought Werth up and then basically sat him on the bench for the first two months of the season and I was wondering what the heck they were doing. I forget if that was 2002 or 2003 but instead of giving him regular at bats when he was still young they basically wasted a half a year of his development. I think it was 2003 because he played most of the season in '02 in AAA.

Of course they could use Werth right now...turns out he's a much better player than Reed Johnson was or will be and at the very least he's the productive right half of a platoon in the outfield or 1B or DH. JP signed Chad Hermenson to a minor league deal claiming he was the "same player" as Werth. I don't see Chad Hermenson in the Jays plans right now and I'm not even sure where he is; I hope for JP's sake he was spinning when he made that comparision and didn't really believe it.

The Jays simply can't afford to waste cheap assets like this and nor can they afford to lose Jesse Harpers to waivers just to hold on to replacement bench players like Dave Berg. Building through the draft is one thing but losing the major league assets you do have is entirely another. Was there any real reason to lose Werth other than the Jays couldn't find the time to play him anywhere? I'll wait on the Phelps verdict as well but based on track record of the players involved, I don't see how the Jays come out ahead there either.
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