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An open thread to talk basketball of all kinds. We're going to try this again and see how it goes.



Current news : According to the Portland papers, the proposed Toronto-Portland deal is Vince Carter, Jalen Rose, Milt Palacio and Jerome Moiso to the Blazers for Sahreef Abdur-Rahim, Derek Anderson and Vladimir Stepania.

And a question : Is there any interest in a site similar to Batter's Box, which would be basketball talk, similarly with a Canadian slant, that wasn't a "Raptors" site per se?

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_Cory - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 11:28 AM EST (#12715) #
Sorry Craig, but this is still baseball related, albeit on the entertainment side. I have been purchasing Triple Play/MVP Baseball for years now for the PC. I am getting sick and tired and slumping in front on the computer and plan on purchasing a console for only one game: the best game ever, MVP Baseball. Now the questions: Out of the three consoles, which is best for the game? Will the cheapo version of Gamecube do the trick? Or shall I go in the middle of the road and buy PS2 or the high end in Xbox? Also, is the lefty glitch incorporated into the console games as well? On the PC version, a patch was issued that took care of it. Any info from any console users would be great... Thanks.
Leigh - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 11:37 AM EST (#12716) #
Is there any interest in a site similar to Batter's Box, which would be basketball talk, similarly with a Canadian slant, that wasn't a "Raptors" site per se?

Oh yeah.
_Christopher - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 11:40 AM EST (#12717) #
According to the Portland papers, the proposed Toronto-Portland deal is Vince Carter, Jalen Rose, Milt Palacio and Jerome Moiso to the Blazers for Sahreef Abdur-Rahim, Derek Anderson and Vladimir Stepania.

I would do that deal if I were the Raptors. Despite his talent, it seems that Vince has given up. I'd hate to lose Rose, but to get rid of two huge contracts, and with Abdur-Rahim becoming a free agent next season, it would give the team a lot of payroll flexibility.
My only concern is how to divvy up minutes with Shareef and Bosh, who both seem better suited to the 4 than anywhere else.
_DeMarco - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 11:46 AM EST (#12718) #
I guess Babcock wants financial flexibility and blow up the core to build around Bosh and Alston.

I definitely think this is the right thing to do. I would do this deal with Van Excel or Anderson, especially if they can deal both Rose and Carter.

I don't care for Polacio or Moiso either.
_DeMarco - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 11:47 AM EST (#12719) #
I also think there is a chance the Raptors will go after Ray Allen in the offseason if they do this deal.
_Christopher - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 11:49 AM EST (#12720) #
I also think there is a chance the Raptors will go after Ray Allen in the offseason if they do this deal.

I've heard this rumour a lot as well. He's said on numerous occasions that he likes the city, not sure about his feelings towards to organization.
_Jonathan - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 11:55 AM EST (#12721) #
I'd much rather they go after michael redd in the offseason if they make this deal. He'll cost a lot less than allen. Also the raps shouldn't do this deal unless nick van exel is included instead of Anderson. That would give the raps two expiring contracts and a boat load of money to throw around, it would also give us two guys who could be dealt at the deadline. Apparently though we're getting a bunch of offers from other teams for carter. I hope they can get this done today, i don't want to see vince put on the purple again.
Craig B - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 11:57 AM EST (#12722) #
I'd love to lose Rose. Anderson isn't a great defensive player, but Rose is one of the worst in the league, especially when he's not trying.

After making the deal, and noting that Stepania has a "sore knee" and is on the IL and might not be able to play right away, my rotation would see Abdur-Rahim starting at small forward with Bosh staying on as the starting 4, and Anderson starting alongside Alston as the guards. Murray would back up Abdur-Rahim as the primary backup forward, with Bonner continuing to back up Bosh but probably seeing a touch less court time (but if he stays hot, he'll see more than Murray).

Mo Pete would see increased court time as the primary backup guard, spelling Anderson fairly often against 2s who can fill it up. Unless I'm very much mistaken, Roger Mason Jr. is not actually hurt, and could come on to the roster to replace Palacio as the backup point - probably not a bad deal all told, since Mason can be used in spurts to beat on and wear down opposing lead guards, playing physically. Alvin Williams just isn't going to get better without extensive surgery and tons of rest.

When Marshall returns, which would be soon, he would be the primary "backup" to Woods, and play easily the majority of the minutes, being as he is the team's best player (second best with Shareef coming in). A frontcourt of Bosh, Marshall and Abdur-Rahim will probably hold its own pretty nicely, even if big centers would give them problems.
_DeMarco - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 11:58 AM EST (#12723) #
If they are getting a bunch of other offers, it is probably in there best interest not to rush this deal.
_NDG - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 11:58 AM EST (#12724) #
I think I like this trade; I know Abdur-Rahim is known as a choker, but who knows, these labels get thrown out there and become very hard to shake. I've always like Anderson's game, and getting to the rim is something the Raps need. Stephania ... who cares.

I hate to give up on Carter, he's incredibly talented, but I just don't think we'll ever see the full potential. The problem with him making these impossible shots, is that he seems to think that's a good shot now.

Rose I've never been a fan of. Many say he's good at a lot of things, but I think this just hides the fact he's not that good at any one thing. Shooting, passing, ball handling, rebounding, long-range shooting etc.

If Palacio could shoot, he could be an all-star. But he can't. At all. Therefore a moot point.

Moiso: who cares.

Thumbs up here.
_Braby - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 12:01 PM EST (#12725) #
I would endorse a Quick and Reef trade for VC and Jalen, but not Derek Anderson, too much to give up for one expiring contract and a pretty bad contract. Though there aren't many out there that are worse than Jalen's contract. Reef is a solid 20 and 10 man but disappears in the 4th quarter, Van Exel happens to be pretty clutch, so it may all work out. Problem is, there's no big name FA's out there next summer. Actually there are 2, and they play for the same team, Ray Allen and Rashard Lewis.
Mike D - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 12:14 PM EST (#12726) #
Shareef has been playing the 3 very well in Portland this year. If Anderson and Peterson can hold the fort at the 2, then it shouldn't cost Bosh or Marshall any minutes.

Through the magic of NBA League Pass, I haven't missed a Raptor game yet. They've really only played one stinker -- the Clippers game. They lost badly to Sacramento, but they created a ton of wide-open looks that they just missed. With Murray, Peterson and Bonner, they actually have the kind of savvy, annoying reserves that have always killed the Raps, but that the Raps have never had. (Well, they already had Murray, but that's another story.)

I only say that as preamble for my main point, which is that Vince's play has been utterly desultory this year. I've often felt like the last of his defenders, but this year life has imitated art and he's played exactly like the worst caricature painted by his detractors. He's taken ill-advised jump shots (including the always-inexplicable long 2's, just inside the arc). Other teams nakedly bully him, throwing in an extra shove in virtually every game. He's completely lost his sense of confidence and determination around the hoop, going from a premier finisher to an extraordinarily tentative one -- he's missing lay-ups, finger rolls and put-backs. He gets no calls from the refs.

And he's played defence almost exclusively with his hands. His percentage of fouls that are for reaching in is surely the highest in the league among non-PGs. He's distracted and distracting. And he's probably an enormous "minus," to borrow a hockey stat.

I'd rather see a return package that would more immediately energize the fan base, but sadly, Vince has to go. Now.
Craig B - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 12:20 PM EST (#12727) #
They've really only played one stinker -- the Clippers game

That was my impression, too. They would have won the Nuggets game if it had been at any time other than the very end of a six-game road trip (yes, only because Denver have injuries inside, but then so did the Raptors). They should have won the Nuggets game as it is.

By the way, my wife, who is a huge hockey fan but doesn't ever watch basketball, watched part of the Denver game with me and just about split her sides laughing at the name "Nuggets". She kept breaking into laughter at random times during the game.
_Fawaz K - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 12:21 PM EST (#12728) #
I would hate this trade. As a Suns fan, I cringe at their status as the only team in the league that Carter explodes against anymore and I would hate to have to face him 2 extra times.

How about them Suns, by the way? I completely expect a meltdown sooner rather than later (the Sox thought they were cursed? I've always been convinced that the Suns were the bastard child of the athletic gods), but damn they're fun to watch.
_Braby - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 12:32 PM EST (#12729) #
Phoenix has had some good teams back in the day, and some fun teams too, they went small ball for a couple years and were really fun to watch.

I can't see them doing much in the playoffs when the game comes down to more of a half court set type game, but they'll be fun to watch until that happens.
Craig B - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 12:33 PM EST (#12730) #
Fawaz, your Suns are awesome. Best trio of athletes in the L, with Johnson, Marion, and Stoudemire, and all three are guys who can *play* as well.

They're also incredibly, incredibly young. Other than Nash and Outlaw, nobody on the roster is even 28. Stoudemire is a sure All-Star, developing into an All-World, and he's 22.

I have only one word of caution... Mike D'Antoni is pushing these guys MUCH TOO HARD. All five starters are averaging over 36 minutes a game, and that is much, much too much for the early going. D'Antoni knows he has a good team now - he HAS to let up on the gas pedal or these guys are going to be toast by March, especially Nash who expends more energy than almost any other NBA player per minute of court time. Thankfully, he too is a terrific athlete but he does always wear down as the season goes along.

That was the problem with bringing in Tabuse... he'll sell jerseys, yeah, but Barbosa is still developing and they really could have used a veteran third point guard to steady the team and help Barbosa spell Nash. Tabuse can't really play yet - he'll improve fast, but not enough to be useful this season as anything other than a fun distraction.
_Fawaz K - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 12:44 PM EST (#12731) #
I agree about the minutes, particularly when it comes to Nash. Barbosa's been battling a foot injury so his return should help. I'm finding D'Antoni's usage of Outlaw curious; he was glued to the bench as Cleveland erased that 19 point 4th quarter deficit. The team is essentially using a 7-man rotation and that's too short for the regular season. The problem is that all of their depth is at the 3-spot, where Marion, Johnson and Q get minutes and where Lampe and a healthy Cabarkapa, despite their size, are best suited to play.
_S.K. - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 12:52 PM EST (#12732) #
Craig - don't you think a lineup of Marshall, Bosh, Abdur-Rahim, Anderson, and Alston would be thoroughly torched at the defensive end? I'm still on the fence about the trade, mainly because of the position switches and talk of Bosh switching to SF... I think as long as Chris stays at PF to continue his development (the #1 goal of this season), I would be cautiously optomistic.
_NDG - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 12:57 PM EST (#12733) #
CAUTION: Made up rumour ahead!

I was thinking about a Carter to New Orleans for PJ Brown or Magloire (this would require more). New Orleans is really struggling and with Mashburn done for the year (again), they could use some excitement. They've got a glut of big men, which the Raps could use.

I don't have time now to look up rosters and propose a sensible trade, but it seems to me the needs of these two teams mesh well.
Mike D - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 12:59 PM EST (#12734) #
With his length, Shareef has been a good defender at SF this season. Alston has been good on defence. The 2 and 5 positions have been the problems for the Raptors on D.
_MK - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 01:03 PM EST (#12735) #
If they are getting a bunch of other offers, it is probably in there best interest not to rush this deal.

Even if they're not getting a bunch of other offers just yet, it's still better not to rush it... This offer isn't good enough, especially with Anderson in it instead of Van Exel -- Anderson is a more useful player, but not with that contract.

In the end, obviously it would be a dump of salaries for cap space, but with little apparently out there to use the cap space for after this season, wouldn't it be better to suffer through a few more weeks of Vince's whining to try to let the market build up and get a useful player in return instead? I'd rather not see the team put all its eggs in Ray Allen's basket and have him sign elsewhere.
Craig B - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 01:06 PM EST (#12737) #
No, S.K., I think you'll find that Abdur-Rahim is a good defensive player, as is Marshall. It can't be any worse than starting Carter and Rose on the wings; as bad as Mike says Carter has been, Rose is usually worse. Alston is improving but yeah, he's not there yet.

The advantage the Raptors have is that they have Peterson available, who is a very good defender, and Bonner is really surprisingly tough.

The long and short of it is that the Raptors are not, under any circumstances, going to be a top-caliber defensive squad as long as they have no center. Woods has stopped the gap, but he won't for long, and with Araujo not ready for prime time yet it's easy to see how they will get hurt by teams that are good inside. But a Marshall/Shareef/Bosh frontcourt should be able to grab a lot of rebounds, at least.

The Raptors weren't a top-quality defensive team last year either, despite the glacial pace O'Neill had them playing at. It's just really hard to do when you

Stepania's not a good defender, but he's probably better than anyone they have in the middle!

I'd always rather worry about how to stop teams than worry about how to score, especially with the new defense rules. You can hang on to Carter, wait out for someone to dangle a center, and make that deal, but it won't bring the same amount of talent (because size is always moer expensive). You'll end up worrying about where your points will come from, since Lamond Murray isn't going to score the way Shareef can, and you have a second unit without anyone who can create shots in the halfcourt, and you'll probably be stuck with Rose taking too many shots and giving half an effort most nights.
_Wildrose - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 01:08 PM EST (#12738) #
Craig, I think you have your answer regarding interest in a basketball
hoops sight similar to that of our beloved Batters Box.

In regards to the Sun's ,any team that has Steve Nash on it, is automatically my favourite. As Craig relates they may have the best group of young talent in the league. Add to that mix the rights to the Bull's first round choice this year ( which may be the first choice overall)and 24 year old Milos Vujanic, Serbia's starting 24 year old point guard and one of the best players in Europe.

The Suns need to parlay their outstanding depth on the peremiter, for an athletic legit starting 5 man. Toronto's Jamaal Magloire (who's angry with the Hornets brass over the use of his own personal trainer)or Sam Dalambaert who seems to be falling somewhat out of favor in Philly.
_sweat - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 01:09 PM EST (#12739) #
I'm not a huge basketball fan, but everytime i watch the raps, I always wonder wh people like Jalen Rose. The guy seems like a ball/glory hog. The guy takes low percentage shots all the time. At least, thats what it seems to me.
Craig B - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 01:09 PM EST (#12740) #
wouldn't it be better to suffer through a few more weeks of Vince's whining to try to let the market build up and get a useful player in return instead

Honestly, my concern is that Vince isn't playing poorly because he's dogging it. He looks broken to me. If that becomes the general view, he'll be untradeable except for bad contracts, which would be a disaster for the Raptors.
_S.Bialo - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 01:12 PM EST (#12741) #
I agree with Craig's last comment - Vince has certainly lost a step, and he's mentally so messed up that I'm not sure he'll recover. He can't do the things he could when he was younger, and he doesn't have anything to fall back on. I'm in favor of dealing him quicker, even though there is always the possibility he'll put it all together in Portland.
_MK - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 01:12 PM EST (#12742) #
Oooh, good idea Wildrose... Dalembert would be an awesome fit in Phoenix. Excellent rebounder and shot blocker who doesn't demand a lot of touches on offence but can fill the basket at a good percentage.

I've never been much of a Suns fan but it would be nice to have a team that entertaining to watch on a regular basis!
_Wildrose - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 01:13 PM EST (#12743) #
Does anybody else have the same problem I have. Whenever I try to go "back" and edit my post, it's gone usually, although sometimes its there. Is this a problem with my computer or Grey matter?
_MK - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 01:17 PM EST (#12744) #
Honestly, my concern is that Vince isn't playing poorly because he's dogging it. He looks broken to me. If that becomes the general view, he'll be untradeable except for bad contracts, which would be a disaster for the Raptors.

I'm obviously basing my assessment on the assumption that he's dogging it. He's definitely not as quick and athletic as he used to be (who is?), but from the bit that I've watched so far his problem seems to be the same as it has been the last couple of years, namely horrendous shot selection.

If there's more to it and he's actually declined physically even since last season, then by all means, deal him for cap space... just don't assume that the Raptors will be a favoured destination of free agents (other than the ones more interested in their wallets than wins) next summer.
_Christopher - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 01:19 PM EST (#12745) #
I'm in favor of dealing him quicker, even though there is always the possibility he'll put it all together in Portland.

I agree with that. If he does realize his potential in Portland, then good for him, and good for the league. I just don't see it happening in Toronto though.
_Fawaz K - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 01:20 PM EST (#12746) #
I've never been much of a Suns fan but it would be nice to have a team that entertaining to watch on a regular basis!

Between TSN, The Score and the Sportsnet stations (all four), the Suns are on TV 21 times around here (not to mention the annual visit to T.O. - I got my tix for that one a while back!). That was just one more reason I was thrilled with the Nash pick-up, instant TV coverage.

I think Craig's right about Carter in the sense that he's not failing for a lack of effort. I think he can be fixed, but someone really needs to get inside his head. A few bruises and he refuses to go the hole. Of course, given a track record of seemingly selfish and pig-headed behaviour (in my opinion, I know some don't think that graduation thing was a big deal and I doubt it affected his game...but WHY?), it's unclear that he'd be willing to change. I don't think he's lost any of his physical gifts yet.
_Wildrose - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 01:22 PM EST (#12747) #
http://www.hoopshype.com/salaries.htm
Regarding clearing salary cap room, I think much like the Blue-Jays would the Raptors have problems attracting quality free agents to Toronto? I'm not sure, maybe a lot of European guys would actually prefer Toronto. At any rate , the Raptors new G.M. Babcock ,much like J.P. Riccardi seems to have a good eye for talent.

Comm for a good sight to view NBA salary data. Clearing Rose, Carter and Rahim would give the Raptors great flexibility.
_Christopher - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 01:22 PM EST (#12748) #
just don't assume that the Raptors will be a favoured destination of free agents (other than the ones more interested in their wallets than wins) next summer.

I don't the situation will be too bad. I think a Sam Mitchell/up-tempo game is appealing to a lot of guys. If Vince accomplished one thing, it's proving that you don't disappear in the minds of fans and the league by playing north of the border.
_S.Bialo - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 01:24 PM EST (#12749) #
The problem isn't really refusing to go to the hole, he's been driving all the time lately. The problem is that the second any help comes over, he panics and tosses up a fadeaway or weak finger roll or just throws it at the rim. The combination of lost explosiveness and that panicky loss of confidence has made it actually more effective for him to stay on the perimeter.
_Christopher - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 01:27 PM EST (#12750) #
The problem is that the second any help comes over, he panics and tosses up a fadeaway or weak finger roll or just throws it at the rim.

Yeah, it seems each year Vince's runner in the lane gets more frequent.
_Chris - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 01:27 PM EST (#12751) #
http://www.82games.com/0405TOR.HTM

You want to know why it would be a great deal to get rid of Carter and Rose? Look at the link above. Small sample size, but still.
_Christopher - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 01:29 PM EST (#12752) #
The Knicks payroll is over $100 million???
Yikes, good job Isiah.
_Christopher - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 01:31 PM EST (#12753) #
http://www.82games.com/0405TOR.HTM
COMN for Chris' link.
_Geoff - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 01:33 PM EST (#12754) #
I was thinking about a Carter to New Orleans for PJ Brown or Magloire (this would require more). New Orleans is really struggling and with Mashburn done for the year (again), they could use some excitement. They've got a glut of big men, which the Raps could use.

One completely made up deal I came up with on RealGM involving Toronto and the Hornets is as follows

To TOR:
Magloire
Mashburn
Wesley

To NO:
Carter
Marshall
Woods

After seeing the Portland deal tho, I think I overestimated how much Carter's stock had fallen. I thought Rose, with that contract, was untradeable and to move Carter we'd have to take on a bad contract (Mashburn) and move Marshall...I'm quite ecstatic with the Portland deal...if only because I think I am irrationally a fan of salary cap flexibility

The proposed trade by Portland doesn't work on RealGM's trade checker tho...Portland would need to send some additional salary I think

I love Craig's rotation tho. Its not championship material, but I think its enough to make them a serious choice to win their division (if they aren't already)
Craig B - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 01:34 PM EST (#12755) #
maybe a lot of European guys would actually prefer Toronto

That would be great; it's too bad that the Raptors completely ignored Europe under Glen Grunwald. I don't know if Grunwald absorbed some sort of anti-European bias from playing under Bob Knight, but they killed themselves by failing to take European and European-based players seriously.

The Raptors didn't draft, sign or otherwise bring in a single European-based player from the disastrous Vincenzo Esposito experiment all the way through to the Nate Huffman fiasco.

The only European players with Toronto in all that time were

Kornel David, acquired in a trade, played 17 games and was gone after the season;

Alek Radojevic, who was drafted out of an American college;

and Zan Tabak, who was an expansion draft pickup from Houston.
Craig B - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 01:39 PM EST (#12756) #
Recalling Vincenzo Esposito makes me smile, actually. Remember him running the point? I haven't seen anything like it since. It was like putting a high school player in an NBA uniform. Teams dusted off their pressure defences just for him.

It was like when my high school coach put Shane Nickles in at the point against Halifax West; I think there were four straight turnovers *in the backcourt* and on the fifth try he made it all the way up to the timeline, tried to dribble through a trap and went flying.

All I could think on the bench was, oh god, please don't put *me* in at the point.
_Fawaz K - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 01:47 PM EST (#12757) #
Grunwald was nothing short of a disaster in terms of the on-court product. The clincher for me was Arroyo. In his time here he definitely flashed his potential and was not about to command a major pay-off. I suppose the same could be said about Alston (although I won't because I didn't think about it at the time and they've brought him back anyway).
_S.Bialo - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 02:06 PM EST (#12758) #
I wouldn't call Grunwald a disaster. He did a good job of building the 2000/2001 playoff team. His main problem came from being too loyal to his key pickups like Antonio and JYD.
_Fawaz K - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 02:17 PM EST (#12759) #
I guess that's fair. I always thought that the success 2000-2001 was a function of Carter's brilliance and little else, but I could be convinced that Grunwald put the pieces in place around him to succeed. That said, I truly believe that season was an anomaly and that success was surprising given the make-up of the roster.
_Christopher - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 02:25 PM EST (#12760) #
The Nuggets deal was pretty good on Grunwald as well.
Keon really added something when he got here.
_S.Bialo - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 02:30 PM EST (#12761) #
Not to mention that the Davis trade with Chicago worked out pretty well last year, considering the circumstances GG was working under.
_Fawaz K - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 02:30 PM EST (#12762) #
http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/chatESPN?event_id=6533
Anyone up for a little baseball hot stove? Crasnick chat at 2:30 comn.
_Fawaz K - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 02:34 PM EST (#12763) #
The Davis circumstances were partly caused by Grunwald. His contract meant taking on Rose's stinker and giving up JYD (also overpaid, but far too lovable to complain about). Baxter's gone. Marshall has always been a little underappreciated, but he'll never be mistaken for a star.
_S.Bialo - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 02:37 PM EST (#12764) #
Marshall is a great player, make no mistake. He was the best player in that trade by a country mile. He's one of the most unappreciated players in the league - ask Craig if you don't believe me.
Mike D - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 02:51 PM EST (#12765) #
82 Games is really interesting. It reinforces my observation that Mo Pete is playing great basketball, and Moiso really ain't.

that panicky loss of confidence

S. Bialo nailed it. That's exactly what it is with Vince. I really don't think he's either sandbagging or disinterested, as Dave Feschuk seems to believe in his sneering screeds. But he's just killing the team now, and fans won't be happy with another few months of it.

Craig's right when he says VC looks broken. Three years ago, who would've ever thought Vince Carter would lose confidence on the court?!?
_Fawaz K - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 02:55 PM EST (#12766) #
I don't believe you, at least to the extent that he's a 'great' player. I don't know that he was the best player in the trade, but he was certainly the best value at $5 million/year (is that about right?). That Davis is a more effective in the paint (this is subjective, but I think Davis was more adept at boxing out and contesting rebounds) and Rose could, on occasion, carry an offence make them candidates for that distinction. Marhsall can fill up a scoresheet with points and boards (a great fantasy player) but they come largely when no opposing player is paying any attention to him.
_Christopher - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 02:56 PM EST (#12767) #
Three years ago, who would've ever thought Vince Carter would lose confidence on the court?!?

Not me. The drop off has been astounding.

One of my favourite early-Vince moments was a game against Indiana when he was about to drive past Reggie Miller, slipped and fell on his belly, but kept his dribble.
He didn't panic. He just got up and calmly hit an 18 footer over Miller. I thought, wow, we've got something special here.

The slam dunk contest was pretty cool too.
_Chris - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 02:57 PM EST (#12768) #
http://www.82games.com/nbashots.htm
http://www.82games.com/nbashots.htm

MoPete is playin great ball right now, but check out this link, and scroll down to long-range jumpers.
_Rob - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 02:57 PM EST (#12769) #
I've never liked basketball, maybe because I'm terrible at every aspect of it, but I might try and watch a Raptors game soon. I can only name Vince Carter and Chris Bosh on the team and I don't know what each player's ability is with respect to shooting, defense, or whatever. Basically, I know nothing about the game but I'm willing to learn if it fills the void until Spring Training starts.

Does anyone have a quick basketball primer I can check out, just so I know what the players are supposed to be doing at a specific time and I can understand what's going on?

It's almost boring, but I hate when people say baseball is boring, so I won't say that. :) To me, it just seems like everyone's running down the court, watching a guy take a shot, running back, watching another player miss a long shot, running back to the other side, etc.

B-ball fans, enlighten me!
_Fawaz K - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 03:02 PM EST (#12770) #
To me, it just seems like everyone's running down the court, watching a guy take a shot, running back, watching another player miss a long shot, running back to the other side, etc.

Some might argue that is exactly what the NBA has become with the erosion of the team game and the me-first revolution. Some things are still great to watch for, like off-the-ball movement, interior defence and rebounding.
_Christopher - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 03:04 PM EST (#12771) #
http://www.nba.com/canada/Basketball_U_Undergraduate_Cla-Canada_Generic_Article-18035.html
Rob, COMN for a pretty good introduction page.
Craig B - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 03:08 PM EST (#12772) #
Rob, it's a bit cheesy at times, but try the NBA "Basketball U" website. Check out some of the most basic articles, then look at the "Master Class" page, which has more of what you're looking for.

In fact, scratch that. You've seen basketball before, so you know the basic rules. You should almost begin with the "Master Class" page, in the "Skills and Strategies" section.
_S.Bialo - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 03:09 PM EST (#12773) #
player '03 PER '04 PER
Marshall 18.4 19.0
Rose 14.8 12.4
Davis 14.5 11.8
Williams 15.6 14.7

player '03 PCAA '04 PCAA
Marshall 327 351
Rose 59 -83
Davis 37 -36
Williams 55 52

Those are John Hollinger's Player Efficiency Rating, and Points Created Above Average (not sure who invented that one). Either way, Marshall is a terrific player, and none of the other guys in that trade come close. (JYD is underrated as well, though).
Craig B - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 03:09 PM EST (#12774) #
I guess Christopher had the same thought.

For a *real* master class, come to a game with me. :)
_Fawaz K - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 03:23 PM EST (#12775) #
I'm sticking to my assessment, but I should add a disclaimer that I intensely dislike the generally accepted stats kept in basketball. All rebounds are not created equal, nor are all assists. Baseball stats are more easily manipulated because the batter is always the focal point of an at-bat; a play in basketball can break down any number of way. Until better records are kept of tough rebounds and cheap points, rating systems such as Hollinger's, which use those flawed numbers, will be flawed themselves.
_S.Bialo - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 03:29 PM EST (#12776) #
I fail to see how the skill represented in grabbing a rebound is any less consistent than the skill represented in hitting a single or catching a fly ball.

If a statistic is fairly consistent and has predictive value, it is worthwhile for player evaluation. I'll admit that basketball stats aren't at the stage baseball stats are, but there are many analysts out there doing exceptional work hacking their way through the statistical jungle to get us to a clearer view of things.

PER I know enough about to say that it is a very reliable guage of player value. PCAA not as much.
_Rob - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 03:47 PM EST (#12777) #
Thanks for the links, guys.

Chalkboard Principles seem easy to understand:
No Middle is meant to keep players away from the inside because it's harder to score from farther away.
Bump Cutters seems like the basketball equivalent of "clutch-and-grab", where the defense knocks the driving player back as he goes to the net.

So these strategies listed here, are they all (for lack of a better word) good? I've had endless debates with people over "smallball" versus "patience ball" -- is there a basketball strategy that everyone thinks works really well, but it doesn't?

After seeing the section on screening/picking, I retract my earlier statement, "I'm terrible at every aspect of basketball," because I can pick like nobody else I've ever played with. Dribbling, shooting, rebounding: all hopeless for me. But stick me in front of a driving player and he won't score 9 times out of 10 (which makes no sense because I'm only 5-8/170).
_Fawaz K - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 03:58 PM EST (#12778) #
I'm going to have trouble articulating this, but I'll try:

I don't mean to denegrate the work that guys are doing with the raw data they're getting, but as you point out basketball is still far behind baseball. Was Shawn Bradley really that good too (18.41)? Adjusting the numbers to per-minute values rewards role and bench players too much; if they make mistakes they don't get minutes, and they're fresher. Starters receive more defensive pressure. I keep harping on Marshall, which sucks because I really like that he's a Raptor, but how often does he have an opportunity to make a mistake? Too many plays are unaccounted for by stats: 'secondary' assists, picks and box-outs represent some of the most basic plays that a player may have to make.

Statistical analysis of basketball has to be more demanding than baseball because the play is quite linear. The effect of one's teammates is far less pronounced in baseball than it is in basketball.

I'm not against statistical analyses in basketball, but to me they're too primitive (in the context of how good they need to be) to rely on in arguing player value, particularly when comparing bit players with feature players.
_Fawaz K - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 04:08 PM EST (#12779) #
Just to add this about rebounds vs. singles:

In and of itself, a single is not all that helpful, but we also have data about XB hits, groundballs and line drives. A rebound is just a rebound and from that we are unable to understand what kind of a rebounder a player is.
Craig B - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 04:10 PM EST (#12780) #
I've had endless debates with people over "smallball" versus "patience ball" -- is there a basketball strategy that everyone thinks works really well, but it doesn't?

Not so much. Nothing like bunting, for example. (I guess there is *one* thing, which you see in college but not the NBA, which is taking a 3-point shot on the fast break.) Like baseball strategies, basketball strategies are dependent on personnel first - you have to have the right people to execute what you are trying to do. Like most baseball managers, most basketball coaches try to ram square pegs (players) into round holes (roles and tactics) because they can control the roles and tactics, but can't control the players.

Some coaches, like Jerry Sloan of the Jazz for instance, are brilliant because they *don't* do this - they are adaptable enough to make things work with different types of talents.

Most basic basketball "plays" are simple and effective, and have ONLY one basic principle in mind, which is to get a player into a shooting position, with his defender out of the way, as the ball is delivered to him. Having an open lane, to dribble or drive toward the basket, is the same as having shooting position, only better. Preferably you also want at least one of your big players underneath the basket in rebounding position when a shot is taken.

Much of the real tactical work in basketball is done on defense, which is often much more interesting to watch for coaches. :)
_Christopher - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 04:13 PM EST (#12781) #
Like baseball strategies, basketball strategies are dependent on personnel first - you have to have the right people to execute what you are trying to do. Like most baseball managers, most basketball coaches try to ram square pegs (players) into round holes (roles and tactics) because they can control the roles and tactics, but can't control the players.

I think this nicely sums up last years Raptors with Kevin O'Neill at the helm.
Craig B - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 04:15 PM EST (#12782) #
Was Shawn Bradley really that good too (18.41)

He's a fine player, yeah. Particularly as a passer, actually. His problem is with man-on-man defense, which statistics still can't measure that well.

The effect of one's teammates is far less pronounced in baseball than it is in basketball.

This is true, but it doesn't make the statistical work useless, or even less useful. You just have to remember its limitations. The fact that it doesn't do *everything* doesn't mean it doesn't do *anything*.

I keep harping on Marshall, which sucks because I really like that he's a Raptor, but how often does he have an opportunity to make a mistake?

He sees a lot of the ball, actually. Remembering to cmpare him to players with similar roles reduces the inaccuracies in the statistical stuff. Like Fawaz, I think it's important to look at what role a player has.

But ultimately, there are always five guys on the court and in a well-run offense and defense, their roles are not all that dissimilar.
_Mick - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 04:15 PM EST (#12783) #
I don't know if Grunwald absorbed some sort of anti-European bias from playing under Bob Knight

Heh. Four years of Uwe Blab will do that to you.

But seriously, I'm a huge Bob Knight fan (the coach and tactician, not the person, never met him) and used to coach high school girls hoops ... I love the girls game, probably for the same reason I like Knight as a coach. It's much more about strategy, preparedness and teamwork than athleticism.

This may also be a product of my own past as a slow, dumpy white guy with a killer J who was never allowed to shoot by a coach who kept the ball in the hands of the "athletes."
Craig B - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 04:16 PM EST (#12784) #
I think this nicely sums up last years Raptors with Kevin O'Neill at the helm.

I had KO'N in my mind as I wrote it. :)
_Mick - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 04:17 PM EST (#12785) #
Love for Shawn Bradley? That's a foreign concept where I live. I am pretty certain the Mavs would trade Bradley and Mike Finley (who alas is injured now) for VC. But I don't think Vince would love being, at best, the third option on the team behind Nowitzki and Dampier.
Craig B - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 04:19 PM EST (#12786) #
slow, dumpy white guy with a killer J

If you were spending too much time with a J, no wonder you were slow and dumpy. :)

Like Mick, I prefer the game on the floor rather than the game in the air. Oddly enough, it's the *reason* why I like the NBA, since cerebral basketball is played at a much higher level in the L than anywhere else. (Look at the Sacramento Kings - they run the Princeton offense better than Princeton ever ran it, and they have five or six offensive sets besides).

Of course, I like the international game even more, for the same reasons.
Craig B - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 04:20 PM EST (#12787) #
Love for Shawn Bradley? That's a foreign concept where I live.

People love to pick out what a guy can't do, rather than what he can.

But one thing Bradley can't do, is play more than 20 minutes a game. So he's not as useful as a real starting center. He's also getting pretty old.
_Magpie - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 04:27 PM EST (#12788) #
I assure you, Rob, you're a better basketball player than I.

And not just because you're taller, either.

I've only been paying attention to hoops since the Raptors arrived. (So what do I know? Well, not much.) It obviously has the same problem, when it comes to statistical analysis, that hockey has - there is just so much teamwork involved that an individual's numbers don't necessarily tell us what we need to know.

And there are lots of - maybe not illusions, but factors at work. Like, say, Iverson doesn't have a great shooting percentage, but how much of that is because when the clock runs down, they give him the ball and say make something out of this mess...

You hoops guy know what I mean, right?!
_Rob - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 04:30 PM EST (#12789) #
More questions from the One Who Knows No Hoops:

Craig: since cerebral basketball is played at a much higher level in the L than anywhere else.
Mick: with a killer J

I prefer the players who can really take it to the Q, but don't sacrifice their S power in doing so. Seriously, what the hell are you guys talking about?

I remember Bill Simmons, my only link to the NBA, blasting the Raptors for taking Rafael Araujo this past draft. What's wrong with him, so to speak? And how is he four years older than Chris Bosh? Bosh was drafted in 2003 -- that puts him five years ahead of Araujo. Should the Raps have chosen someone else?

And, the simplest one that will turn out to have the longest answer: What's the deal with Vince? I've heard him speak and he's not a dumb man -- quite well-spoken, in fact -- but he doesn't seem to care anymore.
_Mick - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 04:41 PM EST (#12790) #
L = "the League," sometimes also "the Association," the NBA
J = "jump shot"
Craig B - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 04:42 PM EST (#12791) #
Sorry, Rob.

"The L" is the NBA. "L" in this case, being short for "League". Normally, I'd pick hockey players as being the ones who need a one-letter abbreviation for a three-letter word, but in this case it's the college boys.

A "J" is a jump shot. Of course, it also means what in the 1930s was called a "jazz cigarette", but in basketball terms, it's a jump shot.

OK, actually, even in basketball terms, it's still both. That's basketball for you.

What's wrong with him, so to speak?

Nothing's really wrong with him, he's just a big, huge guy without a whole lot of basketball skills. They picked him for his potential, but his potential is a little more limited, because he's not young as you point out.

Araujo's not young because he played in Brazil, and then came to the U.S. for college, and played a while there. So while Chris Bosh went to college at 18 and played just one year before turning pro, Araujo didn't go to college until he was 20, and spent four whole years in college.
_Mick - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 04:50 PM EST (#12792) #
And, the simplest one that will turn out to have the longest answer: What's the deal with Vince? I've heard him speak and he's not a dumb man -- quite well-spoken, in fact -- but he doesn't seem to care anymore.

I think it's all speculation at this point, but if you list these things in a row:

1. You got your college degree (amidst huge controversy, admittedly) from one of the best schools in the region and this was all your mama ever really asked of you.

2. You've already made more money than God and Allah (I refer here specifically to God Shammgod and Alaa Abdelnaby, of course) combined and will probably get at least one more grossly huge contract.

3. You play for a team that realistically has absolutely no shot at a title in the foreseeable future.

How motivated would YOU be?
Craig B - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 04:56 PM EST (#12793) #
God Shammgod and Alaa Abdelnaby

LOL.

L. O. Freakin'. L.

Thanks Mick.

God Shammgod
Alaa Abdelnaby
_Fawaz K - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 05:01 PM EST (#12794) #
I think we might be suggesting the same thing, Craig.

He's a fine player, yeah. Particularly as a passer, actually. His problem is with man-on-man defense, which statistics still can't measure that well.

I merely brought Bradley up to make a point. Bradley does things well that are rewarded by the ratings and even a few things that aren't. However, the ratings don't properly consider his defence and durability. To be fair, Hollinger doesn't even pretend that the analysis is complete. I even appreciate that the title 'efficiency rating' doesn't necessarily reflect how you would value a player, merely how they perform compared to what might be expected.

This is true, but it doesn't make the statistical work useless, or even less useful. You just have to remember its limitations. The fact that it doesn't do *everything* doesn't mean it doesn't do *anything*.

I hope I didn't imply this and I don't think I did. In fact, my main concern was that the limitations were not being considered in the comparison being presented.

He sees a lot of the ball, actually.

I meant to indicate that his passes are primarily low-leverage i.e. at the very beginning of a offensive set or a pass around the perimeter (ugh, this is going to come out muddled) and are less likely to get intercepted than, say, a Garnett pass out of a double or a player dumping it in to Shaq. Of course, it could be argued that avoiding these passes is a far more prudent approach and should get credit.

Remembering to cmpare him to players with similar roles reduces the inaccuracies in the statistical stuff

I think this is where my objection to S. Bialo's assertion is grounded. It would be one thing to argue that Marshall is a good player (I would agree), but quite another to compare him to players that are/were depended on more by their teams. The statistics fail in this regard.

But ultimately, there are always five guys on the court and in a well-run offense and defense, their roles are not all that dissimilar

I disagree. I think that the difference in expectations both from PG to C and from primary option to 9th man is quite pronounced. This may be more of a function of poorly run offences than anything else, though. Considering it a little further, this sort of thing may occur in waves. Before Mikan, your point held true, but positions became more specialized. Now we're seeing more players break the mold and take on multiple responsibilities.
_Rob - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 05:09 PM EST (#12795) #
I actually thought J was jump shot, but L confused me. If it was called the NBL, I would probably get it, but it's an Association, whatever the difference is between the two.

Normally, I'd pick hockey players as being the ones who need a one-letter abbreviation for a three-letter word

LOL. Makes sense -- football and basketball players are usually college players, maybe even college grads. Hockey players have already been drafted and are playing all the time at age 16; so much for high school. Oh, I'm sure they go to classes in the Soo or Saginaw, but does it really matter to them how well they do in English class when there's hockey to be played?

And looking at the Raptors' schedule, it seems like the first game I'll be able to watch will be Tuesday night at 7.

How motivated would YOU be?

Not very, obviously. It would also suck to have the press ripping you for not being a team player over and over again. I usually think a team in any sport should treat its best player like a great player, but perhaps Vince isn't the best Raptor anymore. Would Bosh now hold that title, or is it Rose?

I'm pretty far behind on the news here -- just now, I couldn't find Jerome Williams on the Raptors' roster anywhere. That's like wondering why Shannon Stewart wasn't in the Jays lineup this year.
_Fawaz K - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 05:12 PM EST (#12796) #
All this chatter had me pumped up for the Suns-Lakers game tonight, then I realized it's not televised. I'd better start appreciating the numbers quickly then, because that's what I'll be staring at on ESPN.com this evening ;)
_Mick - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 05:22 PM EST (#12797) #
Before Mikan, your point held true, but positions became more specialized.

Interesting point (pardon the pun). But wouldn't you argue, conversely, that since, say, Magic, the positions are becoming more and more alike again? The 6'9" point guard (Magic), 6'8" shooting guard (James) and 7'1" small forward (Nowitzki) are becoming pretty commonplace. And let's not get started on Garnett.
_Fawaz K - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 05:30 PM EST (#12798) #
Mick, that's what I meant to suggest when I fumbled with the words "Now we're seeing more players break the mold and take on multiple responsibilities."

As a Suns fan, this is particularly true; they often throw JJ, Q and Marion out at the same time with an absurdly athletic Stoudemire at center. Many teams have players that don't fit the mold, fewer teams run offences like that though (i.e. Cassell still does guardy things, Kandi still does centery things and Garnett does everything.)
_Fawaz K - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 05:31 PM EST (#12799) #
And Rob, those are indeed the technical terms ;)
_S.Bialo - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 10:50 PM EST (#12800) #
Apparently the trade is on the backburner because 1) the Blazers don't want Rose, and 2) Shareef has refused to go to Toronto. Makes sense to me since the whole reason he requested a trade was because he hates playing SF. Apparently now they're working on a three-way deal to send Abdur-Rahim somewhere else, but it's not looking hopeful since his trade value is as low as Vince's right now. Too bad, I was starting to like the deal quite a lot.
_Fawaz K - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 10:59 PM EST (#12801) #
On sportscentre this evening, Stephen Smith said that the Grizz had offered Bonzi Wells and Mike Miller for Carter. Any thoughts on this?
_S.Bialo - Friday, November 19 2004 @ 11:56 PM EST (#12802) #
Just off the top of my head, that seems pretty dumb. Two more swingmen? Without unloading Rose?
Craig B - Saturday, November 20 2004 @ 12:22 AM EST (#12803) #
I wouldn't want Wells and Miller, especially not for Carter.

Vince was good tonight in long spurts... aggressive and quick. He was the best Raptor out there, I thought, at least from the view in Section 306!

I disagree. I think that the difference in expectations both from PG to C and from primary option to 9th man is quite pronounced. This may be more of a function of poorly run offences than anything else, though. Considering it a little further, this sort of thing may occur in waves. Before Mikan, your point held true, but positions became more specialized. Now we're seeing more players break the mold and take on multiple responsibilities.

Well, I'm thinking of the way that in good offenses, the ball is cycled so that everyone gets touches. Good halfcourt offenses swing and rotate the ball, and will stack, overload and post up their guards as well as their forwards. That means that players' offensive (though not defensive) roles are much more fluid.

Think about the triangle offense; other than the center, all four players in a triangle offense essentially handle the ball and play interchangeable offensive roles. (The center, of course, is different). Think about Sacramento's Princeton sets, where the center is as likely as not going to distribute the basketball. Or Seattle's back-cut play that they killed the Raptors on tonight (including, shame shame, two trips down the floor in a row). The first time, it was run by Ray Allen playing the "point forward" on a stack. The second time, it was Nick Collison, and Danny Fortson was playing the "guard" on the back-cut. A well-drilled offense, with certain obvious exceptions (Reggie Evans doesn't handle the ball, for example) can have any player run any portion of any play, because the game as played on the floor, in the halfcourt certainly, doesn't demonstrate any special skills. Everyone (well, maybe not Yinka Dare) can pass the ball, everyone can cut, everyone can set a screen.
Leigh - Saturday, November 20 2004 @ 12:44 AM EST (#12804) #
For a *real* master class, come to a game with me. :)

He ain't foolin'.
_Mick - Saturday, November 20 2004 @ 12:52 AM EST (#12805) #
To further the point Craig is making, in the case of the Princeton offense -- a very dumbed-down version of which I used to coach -- we played our best player at the center position because of its importance. The offence ran through her. Sure, she was 5'5" and also brought the ball up. She used to tell people she was the world's only "point center."

The mangled point I tried to make earlier is that the best players handle the ball the most regardless of position; Dallas runs its offense through Nowitzki; Memphis runs its offense through Gasol. So,

in good offenses, the ball is cycled so that everyone gets touches. Good halfcourt offenses swing and rotate the ball, and will stack, overload and post up their guards as well as their forwards.

Exactly. The specialization now is on where the player's best shot is, not remotely based on size or defensive position (especially with a team that runs a zone defence) ... Michael Redd, by all other counts an ordinary to below average player, is a great outside shooter, so his place in the offense ... his job is to catch, square, shoot. (His motto, as I used to tell my two-guard, should be "Don't shoot unless you have the ball.") OK, this is a bad example because the Bucks are a very traditionally built team with a smallish point guard in TJ Ford and the only break-the-mold players they have are Van Horn, who is a chronic underachiever and Kukoc, who is a thousand years old.
_Chuck Van Den C - Saturday, November 20 2004 @ 11:28 AM EST (#12806) #
I just saw that Jack Cust went to Oakland. How long has this been an inevitability?
_Dr. Zarco - Saturday, November 20 2004 @ 11:46 AM EST (#12807) #
Wow, no mention of the big brawl in Detroit? That was the craziest thing I've perhaps ever seen in a sporting event. Jermaine O'neal coldcocking that one dude was wild. I'm not sure I've ever been more disappointed at a group of fans (mainly) and players. Before this it might have been a technical foul called on the Notre Dame fans (well, fan) in a close game vs. Syracuse due to some idiot throwing a bottle onto the court after a warning. As an aside, Artest is an absolute wacko.
_Braby - Saturday, November 20 2004 @ 12:04 PM EST (#12808) #
I was pretty surprised there was no discussion of the events taken place in Detroit. Just insane, I'm sure every nba player has wanted to do what those guys did, but man, I can't beleive it happened. Poor kids at the game, they'll never be back to a NBA basketball game, maybe never a sporting event. Not for a while anyways.
_DaveInNYC - Saturday, November 20 2004 @ 12:10 PM EST (#12809) #
In my opinion, this is solely on the fans. Sure Artest has a rep as a wacko, but what did he do here that wasn't called for? When your an athlete playing a game, you don't deserve to have beer thrown on you. The fan who gets absolutly malled by Artest deserved it. The real idiot in this is Steven Jackson who just made a completely fool of himself. But as far as Artest goes, I think that what he did was right actually. He shouldn't have to stand for that kind of crap from the fans.

Absolutly pitiful display by the Piston fans and thanks God that Artest, Jones, and O'Neal did what was right and put those fans in their place. Hopefully it'll make fans think twice about throwing stuff at players and possibly it'll make the NBA, MLB, NFL think twice about whether or not beer is served at games.
_DaveInNYC - Saturday, November 20 2004 @ 12:14 PM EST (#12810) #
Oh, and is Steve Nash incredible or what? That's now 3 out of his last 5 games where he's gotten 16 or more assists, that's remarkable. The Suns are a great team, but how bout the Seattle Sonics? 9-1, 9 game win streak. An amazing team when it comes to shooting the 3 ball.
_Rob - Saturday, November 20 2004 @ 12:14 PM EST (#12811) #
http://sports.espn.go.com/broadband/motion/showcase/index?videos=1927343
Wow -- that Detroit stuff was nasty. If anyone hasn't seen it, COMN for the ESPN.com video.
_Fawaz K - Saturday, November 20 2004 @ 12:30 PM EST (#12812) #
That first fan may have had that coming, but skip forward and Artest assualted another fan that was just yelling at him. The O'Neal flew in and creamed him. OK, so I'm not a fan of verbal abuse either, but that falls within the bounds of expected behaviour at a Pistons game.
_DaveInNYC - Saturday, November 20 2004 @ 12:39 PM EST (#12813) #
Fawaz, you have to realize the situation. The players are in the crowd fighting with fans who threw beer at them, if your a smart person, you aren't going to start verbally abusing anyone, especially Ron Artest who is just waiting to go off on someone.

Okay, so Artest comes out of the crowd and what does he got on the court? A fan in a Pistons jersey just standing ON THE COURT. Naturally, Artest rocks the guys jaw but the guy actually takes the punch quite well.

If your Artest, in that situation, I don't think he was trying to thumb out the fans that did or did not do the beer throwing. He got the first guy, and he might have been willing to stop at that, but then a fan in a blue Wallace shirt comes and puts him in a full nelson and other fans start throwing beer at Artest's face while he's being held. If I'm Ron Artest, I'm doing THE SAME EXACT thing in that situation.
_Fawaz K - Saturday, November 20 2004 @ 12:52 PM EST (#12814) #
We just diagree there, I guess. The reaction to the first guy is understandable. Rearranging the faces of anyone that joined in - I can understand that. Shoot, I think Artest initially reacted to the Wallace push (which started the whole thing) far more positively than anyone could expect. However, once he was pulled away and headed off the floor, he reacted unnecessarily to that fan that was yelling at him. I would like to see the replay of that again, because I remember the fan being 10 or 15 feet away and showing no signs of advancing. The fan was clearly an idiot for being on the floor and yelling, but that to me doesn't constitute grounds for attacking someone. That is all, of course, subject to my recollection of the situation - it may have been more threatening than that. I understand the other point of view, but I'm not reacting the same way, especially because I already know that I'm costing my team some games (then again, I didn't have beer spilled all over me...).
_Dr. Zarco - Saturday, November 20 2004 @ 12:53 PM EST (#12815) #
According to Jim Gray, the dude in the blue Wallace jersey was actually the one who threw the beer, and the poor dude in the black shirt took the heat for it. Then the dumbass in the blue jersey started trying to punch Artest in the side of the head while holding him back. Note-do NOT provoke people much much bigger and stronger than you. I generally agree with Dave that this is mostly on the fans, but Artest shouldn't have gone into the stands either. From there I fully support the players pretecting themselves and their teammates.
_Wildrose - Saturday, November 20 2004 @ 01:01 PM EST (#12816) #
http://www.clickondetroit.com/index.html
Here's another video of the brawl that may be easier to load than from the ESPN sight. (comm)
_Fawaz K - Saturday, November 20 2004 @ 01:06 PM EST (#12817) #
Wow - that idiot was NOT 10 feet away. I still don't think he was about to hit Artest, but I'll buy his reaction.
_DaveInNYC - Saturday, November 20 2004 @ 01:13 PM EST (#12818) #
Of course ideally you would like for Artest and the Pacers to stay on the court, and yes they are supposed to be role models for the kids there at the arena... but in the heat of the moment it's very hard to control yourself when your having beer thrown at you by drunken fans.

As far as the fan on the court, I just got finished watching it again and he was much closer than 15 feet, or even 10. He wasn't face to face with Artest but he was as close as you can get in a confrontation like this. He was basically asking for a punch to the face.

Now, what's being confused here by myself included at first, is that that same guy gets punched in the face by Jermaine O'Neal. In actuality, another fan comes onto the court and slips on the beer. When he's trying to get up, O'Neal makes a running, sliding punch and drills the guy right in the face and sends the guy staggering back.

What a wild wild scene. And although I do agree with what Artest and the boys did, why don't normal rules apply here? For example, if I'm at some event and there's drink being served and some guy just pours beer all over me and I react by punching him in the fact and we start brawling, both of us are getting arrested. Why are the fans in question the ones being threatened with arrests, why not the players?
_Christopher - Saturday, November 20 2004 @ 01:16 PM EST (#12819) #
I can't even imagine how much beer I would have to drink to think that antagonizing an NBA player would be a good idea.
What a surreal sight.
_Fawaz K - Saturday, November 20 2004 @ 01:20 PM EST (#12820) #
I can't imagine deciding that the best use of a $10 beer is to fling it at someone.
_DaveInNYC - Saturday, November 20 2004 @ 01:21 PM EST (#12821) #
Anyone else see the rather large African American fellow in a gray outfit that just unloads on Freddie Jones? He punches him in the head about 2 times and Jones falls to the ground where the man starts stomping on Jones.

The same large fellow in gray also got a punch in on Ron Artest's head.

The funny thing about...

He had a press pass around his neck
_Wildrose - Saturday, November 20 2004 @ 01:24 PM EST (#12822) #
Wow. Thats all I can say. Players cannot absolutely go into the stands no matter what the provocation . I think the problem that may well play itself out is, did Artest attack the wrong guy? If so Mr. Artest better have some pretty damn good lawyers(Speaking of such, where have all the lawyers on this sight gone? No doubt hopping in their hummers and barrelling down the 401 as soon as they saw this clip, imagine the lawsuits from this mess.)

I wonder what the NBA will do? Certainly Artest has a certain track record. The NBA might choose to distance itself from this imbroglio by suspending this fellow for the entire year.I'm sure the Pistons will be getting a hefty fine for lax security as well.
_Wildrose - Saturday, November 20 2004 @ 01:37 PM EST (#12823) #
http://www.sperts.net/article.php?page=340
Comm for another take on the brawl.
_Christopher - Saturday, November 20 2004 @ 01:41 PM EST (#12824) #
Darko Milicic, the forgotten man.
I haven't heard much of him since last year's draft, but can he be so raw that he can't be used at all in a meaningful game?
_Mick - Saturday, November 20 2004 @ 01:51 PM EST (#12825) #
After all the suspensions come down, Darko is going to find himself getting 37 minutes a game for a while.
_Fawaz K - Saturday, November 20 2004 @ 01:54 PM EST (#12826) #
Obviously I have no insight into what goes on in Piston practices, but I'm wondering what Larry Brown could possibly be thinking. For all his ability as a coach, I wonder what Brown's ability to evaluate talent is like (not to suggest that I know Darko is a superstar, I'm just curious because he also decided that Amare Stoudemire - the one that now leads the NBA in scoring - wasn't good enough for court time during the Olympics). I fear this may be it for Darko; how can anyone develop without meaningful game time? The only successful HS player I can think of that didn't get thrown right in was Jermaine O'Neal, and even he got 10 mins or so per game in his first season.
_Fawaz K - Saturday, November 20 2004 @ 01:55 PM EST (#12827) #
Mick's right. Lost in all the Pacers VS. Fans drama is the fact that the Pistons and Pacers were going at it pretty good before the beer came-a-spilling.
_Wildrose - Saturday, November 20 2004 @ 01:59 PM EST (#12828) #
I'm just waiting to see how Sports Illustrated somehow blames the NHL for this brawl.

At any rate, it is very hard to develop young NBA players during the season. The travel leaves very little time for meaningfull training.
_DaveInNYC - Saturday, November 20 2004 @ 02:01 PM EST (#12829) #
From what I recall, Larry Brown LOVES Darko and he really pushes Darko hard in practice. He just thinks that right now Darko is too young and too raw to being play meaningful games. The Pistons aren't exactly the Clippers, they are playing games that will ultimately decide whether or not they get home court advantage in the playoffs.

Don't worry, in a few years Darko will emerge as a star.
_Wildrose - Saturday, November 20 2004 @ 02:03 PM EST (#12830) #
Fowaz I'm hurting this A.M. All 3 Canadian sportsnets don't have highlights this morning as they are covering live events, can't see clips of how the Suns beat Team Kobe.
_Fawaz K - Saturday, November 20 2004 @ 02:05 PM EST (#12831) #
I particularly don't see the harm in giving Darko real minutes (and by that I mean about 10, nothing extravagant) because the Pistons,IMO, are in no danger of missing the playoffs in the East. It may cost them one or two seeding positions, but the upshot is that they may have a real weapon at the end of it, if not for this season at least for the next. As Wildrose points out, developing him during practice is problematic. The team continues to suggest that his work ethic is strong, despite suggestions that he'd like to become a backstreet boy, and it would do him some good to get rewarded for it.
_Wildrose - Saturday, November 20 2004 @ 02:07 PM EST (#12832) #
Actually , as someone on primer said, the most bizzare sight last night , was seeing Rasheed Wallace acting as the primary peace maker. You know when you've seen this, things have gone crazy.
_Fawaz K - Saturday, November 20 2004 @ 02:07 PM EST (#12833) #
I caught the clips last night after folliwing online. Unreal. Nash made this obscene pass through traffic for and Amare dunk. Both teams kept coming back from large deficits. They won it in the final minute.
_Fawaz K - Saturday, November 20 2004 @ 02:09 PM EST (#12834) #
Speaking of the clips, Suns vs Clippers on SNO (and probably another SN) tomorrow at 3:30.
_DaveInNYC - Saturday, November 20 2004 @ 02:16 PM EST (#12835) #
Ya know, the Clips haven't been that bad this season. I've watched a few of their games this year (even attended one against the Knicks) and they are a pretty fun team to watch. That being said, they are painfully inconsistent. It does look like, however, that they have some GREAT players on their hands. Corey Maggette, Elton Brand, Chris Wilcox (what a player he is) and Shaun Livingston all look like they can be great players over time.

Ya never know, they could slip into the final spot in the West this season with New Orleans, Memphis and Denver all struggling early on. You just have to root for the CLips, the loveable losers of the NBA.
_Fawaz K - Saturday, November 20 2004 @ 02:40 PM EST (#12836) #
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2004/basketball/nba/11/20/players.suspended.ap/
Artest, O'Neal, Jackson and Wallace suspended indefinitely. COMN.
_S.Bialo - Saturday, November 20 2004 @ 02:58 PM EST (#12837) #
Hm... I hardly see what Wallace did to earn a suspension like this.
His actions were part of the on-court fight. He went for Artest's throat, and had a roll in the tussle afterwards. That should get a pretty standard suspension of a few games. I can't really see how you can blame him for what ensued.
_Fawaz K - Saturday, November 20 2004 @ 03:04 PM EST (#12838) #
They haven't reviewed the whole incident yet so I suspect when the final numbers come down, Wallace's suspension will be quite a bit shorter than the others.
_DaveInNYC - Saturday, November 20 2004 @ 03:06 PM EST (#12839) #
Keep in mind, Ben Wallace' brother had died just 2 days prior, I'm sure that had something to do with Wallace' outburst. Not that it makes it any better, but still, I think people can sympathize with him.
_Wildrose - Saturday, November 20 2004 @ 03:14 PM EST (#12840) #
"Artest has been suspended several times by the NBA. Earlier this month, he was benched for two games for asking for time off because of a busy schedule that included promoting a soon-to-be released rap album."

Ah... me thinks Ronnie will now have plenty of time on his hands to promote his new rap album!
_Magpie - Saturday, November 20 2004 @ 06:27 PM EST (#12841) #
I can't even imagine how much beer I would have to drink to think that antagonizing an NBA player would be a good idea.

I can't imagine how wealthy I'd have to be to be able to drink that much beer, at NBA stadium prices....
_Wildrose - Saturday, November 20 2004 @ 07:05 PM EST (#12842) #
http://www.clickondetroit.com/index.html
Apparently a Zapruder like film has surfaced(comm), showing a man in a white hat lobbing the beer onto Arrest (er I mean Artest).It seems Artest had indeed attacked the wrong guy. Somehow I don't think the NBA had this in mind when they ran the popular "Get into the Game" based ad theme.
_Braby - Saturday, November 20 2004 @ 08:00 PM EST (#12843) #
Can someone let me know when in the video(s) Fred Jones get punched by the big black dude? I heard about it today at my Basketball game, but I can't find it in either video.
_DaveInNYC - Saturday, November 20 2004 @ 08:29 PM EST (#12844) #
Thanks for all the links Wildrose, especially the last one confirming what everyone knew... the dude with the blue wallace shirt was the one who threw the beer, then the guy next to him gets a face full of seat for it from Ronnie A.

Braby, last night ESPNews was showing non-stop footage of it and on every angle you could see the big black guy punching Jones twice, Jones falls, and then he stomps on him a bit. Click on Wildrose' last post, and at the end of the video which shows the man with the white hat, you can see the big guy throwing the punches but you only see his side, not Jones getting hit and then the video ends.
_Braby - Sunday, November 21 2004 @ 11:19 AM EST (#12845) #
http://www.collegehumor.com/
Thanks DaveInNYC

COMN for the best vid yet, its from ESPN and it shows basically the same as the first two at the start of it, and then slows all the individual little stories in the brawl down, pretty cool.

Just COMN and then click NBA RIOT! at the top
_Wildrose - Sunday, November 21 2004 @ 11:53 AM EST (#12846) #
Most conclusive video yet, thanks Braby.
_S.Bialo - Sunday, November 21 2004 @ 12:04 PM EST (#12847) #
I'd say this thread is a success... of course Vince Carter trade rumors and the craziest sporting riot in recent memory will do that.
_James W - Sunday, November 21 2004 @ 03:25 PM EST (#12848) #
Crunch time and VC's back on the bench. They better be simply mulling over offers, otherwise they'll wait too long and that Shareef deal won't be there.
_Wildrose - Sunday, November 21 2004 @ 04:46 PM EST (#12849) #
AP is reporting;

-Arrest 30 games
-Jackson 20 games
-O'Neal 20 games
-Wallace 5 games

Maybe the Rap's should be talking trade with the Pacers.
_NDG - Sunday, November 21 2004 @ 05:12 PM EST (#12850) #
At the game today... great, great game. The best part about it was watching the comeback with Rose and Carter nailed to the bench. Both were horrible, takin bad shots and constantly losing their man defensively (well Rose was anyways).

Bosh I think has arrived. He went toe-to-toe with Duncan all game and despite the refs horrible officiating (Duncan pushed off on nearly every shot attempt), stayed in there and gave the Raps a chance. Completely different from Carter who would take a fall-away with no one around and whine for a foul after.

Next game I'm going to is when the Timberwolves come into town on Dec. 15. Should be interesting since Garnett abused Bosh last year but I think it will be different this time!

I'm really enjoying Mitchell's coaching. The Raps haven't anyone decent at running a game since that looney Carter. The only bad part is everytime the Raps do well with Rose and Carter on the bench, it must be killin their trade value.
_Fawaz K - Sunday, November 21 2004 @ 05:38 PM EST (#12851) #
From ESPN's recap:

Duncan was listening to his iPod during the 20-minute warmup before the game. On Tuesday, Carter was informed by the NBA that he couldn't listen to his because it violated the league's rules on proper attire. Carter told a reporter what Duncan was doing.

Baby want his bottle? Seriously, doesn't he have anything better to worry about?
_DaveInNYC - Sunday, November 21 2004 @ 06:14 PM EST (#12852) #
Gumble just announced during the Seahawks game that these are the major suspensions:

Ron Artest : The Season
Steven Jackson : 30 Games
Jermaine O'Neal: 25 games

I didn't hear what Gumble said about Wallace, but for good measure Anthony Johnson is out 5 games.

The Pacers season ended today...
_DaveInNYC - Sunday, November 21 2004 @ 06:16 PM EST (#12853) #
This just in

Ben Wallace suspended 6
_Fawaz K - Sunday, November 21 2004 @ 06:36 PM EST (#12854) #
Nash - 18 assists despite a couple of missed dunks by Marion and Stoudemire.
_NDG - Sunday, November 21 2004 @ 06:52 PM EST (#12855) #
The Pacers season ended today...

With Artest gone for the season, the Pacers chance at a championship is probably done, but this is still a very deep team. If they can win 10 of the 25 O'Neal misses, I say they still take a home seed in the playoffs.
_DaveInNYC - Sunday, November 21 2004 @ 06:59 PM EST (#12856) #
You do realize that the Pacers now have 7 active players left, right? One of them, Scott Pollard, can't even play right now due to an injury.

They are done.
_Fawaz K - Sunday, November 21 2004 @ 07:06 PM EST (#12857) #
Perhaps not a home seed, but I can see them getting the 6, 7 or 8 spot. Somebody's sneaking in with fewer than 41 wins. The only reason anyone from the Atlantic is going to make it is the NBA's idiotic rule entitling division winners to a top 3 spot. I just don't see 8 teams that can pull out far enough to hold off the Pacers when O'Neal and Jackson get back.
_NDG - Sunday, November 21 2004 @ 07:17 PM EST (#12858) #
You do realize that the Pacers now have 7 active players left, right?

Wow, just checked .. didn't realize that Miller (well this I knew), Bender, Foster and Pollard are all injured.

Okay, I take back my home seed comment, but still say they make the playoffs.
_NDG - Sunday, November 21 2004 @ 07:19 PM EST (#12859) #
Just five teams in the East are over .500 and one of them is the Pacers!
_Donkit R.K. - Sunday, November 21 2004 @ 07:32 PM EST (#12860) #
Vince Carter for Fred Jones and Austin Croshere (his contract expire at the end of this season? If not we need someone else but Fred Jones should be the key guy).
Keep in mind I am simply making this up...
_Donkit R.K. - Sunday, November 21 2004 @ 07:33 PM EST (#12861) #
How long is Bender out? Bender and Jones for Carter? Jones and Tinsley for Carter and Rose? Anybody ready to do the number crunching on the contracts?
_Braby - Sunday, November 21 2004 @ 08:47 PM EST (#12862) #
I don't think the Pacers can't afford to trade 2 players for 1. That would mean that they would have 5 active players not counting, a injured but dressed, Scot Polard, haha.

I'm guessing they will sign a couple 10 days.
_Braby - Sunday, November 21 2004 @ 08:49 PM EST (#12863) #
There's no number crunching either, Carter makes 12.5 and Rose makes 14.6, I think it will be tough to put together package with the pacers that will add up to that.
_Caino - Sunday, November 21 2004 @ 09:15 PM EST (#12864) #
"I actually thought J was jump shot, but L confused me."

J's and L's are both words for "Jazz Cigarettes".
_mathesond - Monday, November 22 2004 @ 09:36 AM EST (#12865) #
http://www.mathesond.mindsay.com
Dis anyone else read Marty Burns' take on the incident where he says the league is justified in suspending Artest for the remainder of the season, yet feels Vernon Maxwell deserved just the 10 games he got for going into the stands and punching a heckler. Artest went after people that physically attacked him; Maxwell went after a guy that yelled at him, yet Artest deserves the extra 60 games. Doesn't make sense to me.
_jfree - Monday, November 22 2004 @ 10:46 AM EST (#12866) #
if you call getting a water bottle thrown at you from about 30 feet a physical attack then maybe you're right. I cannot fathom how he could have reacted that way. He was so cool and calm when wallace pushed him, for him to get so crazy after getting hit with a water bottle, it just doesn't make sense. I think he was pretty pissed of and instead of getting in a fight with a much bigger and meaner wallace he chose to pick on some 5 6" 150 lb. fan. He's a coward and should be suspended for a long time. With the comments he's made this past week about taking time off and possible retirement, i think we've seen the last of artest in the NBA.
_Wildrose - Monday, November 22 2004 @ 11:03 AM EST (#12867) #
Mathesond read this thread a bit more carefully. Artest waded into the crowd and attacked the WRONG GUY . Some poor schmuck who happened to be sitting near the real perpetrator got wailed on, imagine if this was you. Artest fully deserves his suspension and whatever civil litigation which may befall him.
_Fawaz K - Monday, November 22 2004 @ 12:02 PM EST (#12868) #
Also consider the chaos that ensued. The league really had to put its foot down because the consequences were nowhere near those of the Maxwell incident.
_MK - Monday, November 22 2004 @ 12:07 PM EST (#12869) #
Everyone (well, maybe not Yinka Dare) can pass the ball, everyone can cut, everyone can set a screen.

That's not nice, taking a shot at a player who isn't even alive to defend himself! Surely there are other living players equally deserving of the diss (Mengke Bateer? Mark Pope?)
_MK - Monday, November 22 2004 @ 12:09 PM EST (#12870) #
After all the suspensions come down, Darko is going to find himself getting 37 minutes a game for a while.

Funny you should say that... Yesterday, with 4 suspended players out and only 8 dressed, the Pistons played (and won) a double-overtime game and Darko still only got 9 minutes. :)
_Donkit R.K. - Monday, November 22 2004 @ 02:29 PM EST (#12871) #
NBA Insider reports that the Grizz might become Carter frontrunners. Any chance of landing Battier? Battier and Posey or Wright maybe? Battier and a contract or two to make it work?
_jfree - Monday, November 22 2004 @ 02:35 PM EST (#12872) #
http://www1.realgm.com/src_tradechecker.php
Dealing Vince by himself wouldn't be that adventageous for the raps, they need to include a bad contract in the deal, either alvin or rose. the only deal i could make with memphis would be vince and alvin for wells, posey and wright. Battier was just signed to a 6 year extention so i don't think he's going anywhere. just comn and you can check to see if a trade will match up salary wise.
_Christopher - Monday, November 22 2004 @ 02:49 PM EST (#12873) #
http://www.tsn.ca/nba/news_story.asp?id=105541
Speaking of Alvin. He's out for the season.
Not a big shock.
COMN
_Donkit R.K. - Monday, November 22 2004 @ 04:06 PM EST (#12874) #
Thank you for that jfree, that site is something I was looking for... not sure why I didn't just ask...
Craig B - Monday, November 22 2004 @ 04:32 PM EST (#12875) #
That's not nice, taking a shot at a player who isn't even alive to defend himself!

I completely forgot about this, and I should take it back. I feel awful about it, as I had a very soft spot for Dare despite some... limitations... as a player.
_S.Bialo - Tuesday, November 23 2004 @ 12:11 AM EST (#12876) #
Carter and Alvin for Wells, Posey, and Wright?

As much as I like Posey, I don't see how we're going to divide 96 minutes of playing time at 2-3 between MoPete, Murray, Rose, Wells, and Posey. You simply can't trade Carter for a swingman without dumping Rose as well, because the second Rose goes from starter to scrub he'll go from "passionate veteran leader" to "whiny, egotistical clubhouse cancer".
Not to mention you'll be rewarding Peterson and Murray for their stellar play by giving them less minutes. Or, just not playing either new guy.
Doesn't work on any level.
_Wildrsoe - Tuesday, November 23 2004 @ 11:33 AM EST (#12877) #
Actually the Memphis/Raptor rumour most prominent, is Vince for Wells and Mike Miller, and yes the salaries do fit.
_Braby - Tuesday, November 23 2004 @ 03:52 PM EST (#12878) #
I'd rather have Posey for sure, but Salaries are the key. I guess the Raptors would be taking the Memphis 03/04 comparisons to heart, and really going after the team concept. Lammond Murray has been playing the 4 quite a bit off the bench so that would free up some minutes. I don't see the point of trading Vince by himself tho, Jalen has the bad contract you need to package them together to make it worth while.
_Donkit R.K. - Wednesday, November 24 2004 @ 11:17 PM EST (#12879) #
How about a new Box-ing out thread? Some reaction to Vince's declaration about dunking being overrated and how he didn't wat to do it anymore (what's your say Craig? Isn't it a good, high percentage shot that helps you get to the FT line as well?). Then, he comes out and throws down four times over the following two games (and some nice ones too).

Also, using the trade checker I finally made a trade work that I actually like for the Raptors. Who'd rather make a huge splash by landing Vince than Isiah? New York would love the hype I think and Thomas clearly isn't afraid of making a big move and taking on money. How about:

New York Receives :
Vince Carter
Jalen Rose
Lamond Murray

Toronto Receives :
Jamal Crawford
Mike Sweetney
Anfernee "Penny" Hardaway
Tim Thomas

It gives Toronto two big contracts coming off of the books this year (Penny and Thomas) who are still servicable players for this season and two good, young players locked up for a while (3 years for Sweetney and 6 for Crawford). I could see the Raptors with a starting backcourt of Alston at the 1 and Crawford at the 2. Marshall (once healthy) could finally get back int he starting lineup where he belongs at the 3, Bosh can remain at the 4, and Woods at the 5. Crawford could play some point as could Penny in a pinch but Palacio can remain the main back-up there (unless Penny needs the minutes). Penny and Mo-Pete could split time backing up at the 2 and Mo-Pete could be a third option at the three (behind Tim Thomas as primary back-up). Bosh remains at the 4, with Sweetney backing him up. In order to get Sweetney a lot of minutes, Bosh can slide to the 5 for about 10-12 minutes a game and Sweetney can also play at the 4 for the 6 or 8 minutes Bosh sits. Bosh and Marshall can take some minutes at the 5 behind Woods and Araujo is always available (but for no more than about 10 minutes ... absolute maximum) and Bonner and Mason (what happened to him) can be the last options at the forward and guard positions, respectively. I like that team as a 4 or 5 seed in the East. If Penny or Thomas' (preferrably Penny's) expiring contract could land a solid starting option at center they could hang with Detroit and Miami, IMO. If we get a new Box-ing Out thread, I'll transfer this over there and wait (patiently ;-)) for my proposed trade and rotation to be torn apart :-P.
_Geoff - Wednesday, November 24 2004 @ 11:48 PM EST (#12880) #
and Bonner and Mason (what happened to him) can be the last options at the forward and guard positions, respectively.

I like your trade a lot in general, but I gotta stick up for Bonner, who has been a real plus in my view, and deserving of more minutes, not less minutes
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