I like what I am seeing from this coach, sits the players who aren't playing well, and benches the guys who act like 12 year olds. Vince is the typical reason I dont like basketball. He is too friendly with opponants. The guy plays his best basketball when its against some he knows will never be his team mate.

I like some of what Mitchell does, but man, he needs to calm down!

Rafer and Woods got technicals. It was a stupid thing to do. But does that justify not playing your best players? Because they got technicals? And why would you publicaly call out Moiso like he did the other night? If you know anything about him, and you should, you're the coach, you need to realize that THAT **** DOESN'T WORK WITH HIM! I don't know how you motivate him, but I know that calling him out in public won't work.

I'm also a little concerned that he's not giving Arraujo at least some minutes. The other night he plays well against Shaq, gets to the free throw line twice... and then sits for the rest of the game?

I have no problem with not playing your starters in the 4th quarter if the bench is playing better. Again, that doesn't mean you should call them out in public. Mitchell treats each loss like it's the end of the world.

I used to be a huge Vince defender, and even now I still think he's capable of being quite the player. But he needs to go for the good of the Raptors. Sometimes I think I'd rather have the second unit (Palacio, Peterson, Murray, Bonner and Marshall) start in place of the current starters! Rose has had a few good games, but there's way too many times when it seems like he's out there playing by himself. At this point I'd pretty much take anything for them. Eddie Curry isn't worth much, but he'd be a big man.

Sorry if I rambled, but the Raps are depressing me. They seem to have fallen apart even earlier this year than usual!

I want cancerous Carter off this damned team.

If we can't rely on this guy to be consistant, he needs to go, no more 4 point nights.

One bright spot is Matt Bonner, I like this guys style, true hes only a 10-15 minute guy, but you know what you are getting when you put him on the floor. A HARD FRIGGEN WORKER. Which is what most basketball players are not.

I'm about to fire off a phone call or e-mail to Rogers soon. For some unknown reason they have chosen to black out all Raptor games unless they're national even if you bucked up and and have the digital package. Last year I was able to get the games on Sportsnet Ontario but now when I turn the channel on I get a black screen. This decision makes no sense especially when I see the Raps make comments about how they are Canada's team.

For all the crappy play this season, the Raps play in the JV ... errr ... Atlantic Division so they're only 2.5 games from the 3rd seed.

Carter needs to be dealt asap. He's hurting the club out there and I can't believe how far his stock has fallen in 3 years. I still remember the great series he had vs. the Knicks and 76ers in the 2001 playoffs. I still vividly rememeber his dunk over Dik in his rookie season with the finger wag like it was yesterday.

There are rumblings of Carter maybe heading to the Bulls with perhaps Curry or Chandler/or both heading back to the Raps as well as filler to make the salaries work.

If Rap fans hate Carter for his lack of work ethic and hustle I can't wait until they see Curry on a consistent basis. When I looked up the word lazy in the dictionary I saw a picture of Curry beside it.

I'm thinking it's a bad sign for a basketball team when your fans are going to baseball blogs and PSEUDO-SW**R*NG in *LL C*PS!!!!

Paul, I hate to use overused draft-night language, but I think you underestimate Curry's value. He's still got huge (gak) upside. And he's got the one thing no coach or trainer can ever teach ... size.

I think if the Bulls offered Curry for Carter straight up -- they won't -- that Toronto would need to jump all over that.

Mick, I obviously disagree with you about Curry. Upside isn't useful unless you can actually turn it into something, and I don't see any indication that Curry can do that. He doesn't rebound or play defence, meaning that Sam Mitchell will probably end up taking his head off shortly after he arrives in Toronto. YOu can't teach size, but I don't think you can teach Curry anything.

Don't you hate that "Oh man, my boys won this game! Think I'll go do something else" and then come back to find they lost feeling?

That happened to me too many times to count during the Jays season last year, and it happened to me watching the first half of tonights Raptors game.

Bottom line here - Babcock (or someone) needs to slap Mitchell across the face and tell him to get a grip. Every single thing that goes wrong with this team gets blown out of proportion, and it's only getting worse. What worries me most is that it's becoming increasingly clear that Mitchell isn't sending messages, or 'setting a tone', or 'trying to light a fire under the team', or any of that - he's just completely unable to control himself or look at things in perspective.
I think Mitchell has a lot of good qualities, and I still think he can be an excellent coach in the NBA. But right now, he's a far bigger problem than Carter - a team can win if they hate one or two of their players, but if they hate the coach and decide to stop listening to him, that's the end.

Just my thoughts on the NBA season so far...

I want nothing to do with Eddie Curry. He's been a problem in Chicago for years and obviously has no interest in utilizing his talent. If he came over for Vince, we'd be trading one head case for an even bigger one, which kind of defeats the purpose. Now, if Ben Gordon were included in the trade, which I've heard more than once, well, it would certainly make dealing with Eddie a worthy price to pay.

The Suns have transformed from cellar dwellers to title contenders entirely on the back of Captain Canada. Think about it: This time last year, the Suns had Shawn Marion, Amare Stoudamire and a superstar point guard, and they couldn't buy a win. This year, they have Marion, Stoudamire and a superstar point guard, and they're dominating the competition. Swapping Stephon Marbury, who didn't give the ball up nearly enough considering he had 2 superstars in his frontcourt, for Steve Nash, a great shooter and a pass-first point guard, has been enough to transform the team, ignoring the "contributions" made by Quentin Richardson and his oversized contract. If Nash can keep this up for an entire season, watch out.

Only in the NBA could a player jumping into the crowd to beat up a rowdy fan not surprise you. Shock, yes. But did anyone really think Ron Artest wasn't capable of something like this? He's completely nutty.

The Rafael Araujo pick is going to frustrate me for years. By the time he's ready to become a below average starting center, Sebastien Telfair will be making the leap to superstardom, Al Jefferson will be a force down low and Robert Swift will be twice the center Araujo could ever hope to be. Very disappointing.

Rafer and Woods got technicals. It was a stupid thing to do. But does that justify not playing your best players? Because they got technicals?

Of course it does, especially when your players act like children. They weren't just technicals, they wree childish techs.

Jerry Sloan would have done the same thing.

What Sloan WOULDN'T have done is walk over there like he was going to kill them only to be calmed by an assistant coach (Todd).

Mitchell, for the most part, is doing the right thing... it also happens to be the difficult thing (promoting team above the individual and playing the "right" way). His only problem is that he can't seem to control his emotions.

And why would you publicaly call out Moiso like he did the other night? If you know anything about him, and you should, you're the coach, you need to realize that THAT **** DOESN'T WORK WITH HIM! I don't know how you motivate him, but I know that calling him out in public won't work.

The fact that two coaches who are seemingly vastly different (KO and Mitchell) came to the same conclusion about Moiso tells me he's a write-off. Dude needs motivation to salvage a career on the brink? Whatever. What has he shown to warrant baby-glove treatment?

Mitchell, for the most part, is doing the right thing... it also happens to be the difficult thing (promoting team above the individual and playing the "right" way). His only problem is that he can't seem to control his emotions.

Has there ever been so much agreement on a single topic? I like Mitchell's coaching and the way he's handling the players in game. However the 'sky is falling' schtick is getting old real fast.

What is it about the Raptors that the only two coaches in their history that were useful, were also a little looney (this is being nice to Butch).

Anyone want to bet that we're talking about Mitchell's buyout at some point after this season? We've seen this story before with O'Neill.

I'm ambivalent about Sam Mitchell. On the one hand, I admire his passion for the game and his honesty, and I'm impressed with what he has done with the Raptors' second unit. On the other hand, the hard part of an NBA coach's job is to get talented players to toe the company line, and Mitchell has done a poor job of this: Carter is moping on the bench, Alston is threatening to walk, and Moiso has been cast into limbo.

The unfortunate reality of the NBA is that supremely talented people are often difficult to manage and/or motivate. Mitchell runs the risk of becoming basketball's version of Jimy Williams: a smart man, a talented teacher, but lacking the ability to get along with his stars.

I'm a rather huge Vince fan, but I even admire the way coach is manipulating the situation. If for some reason VC is here a month from now, I suspect he'll be playing much better (team) ball. So far, I've hated every trade scenario that's been bandied about. An athletic 15ppg VC is better than anything else we'd get in return. And going for 'cap space' is about the worst thing we could do in Toronto.

FAs will only come here if we're a legit threat to go far in the playoffs.

Keep Vince. Stop moaning about it. And enjoy the hoops, I haven't watched this much basketball on TV for years.

Oh, and lastly, KO is probably the worst head coach I've ever seen. Ever. In any sport.

Of course it does, especially when your players act like children. They weren't just technicals, they wree childish techs.

So you think if justifies losing the game to send them a message?

And even if you believe that, does it make any sense not to start them for the next game?

As for Moiso, what he's shown is that yelling and screaming at him doens't work. As a coach, it's your job to get players to perform. If the way you do that with Moiso is baby gloves, then you use baby gloves.

As an aside, I think Brendan Malone might have been the best coach the Raptors ever had, in terms of winning. And since all his young players other than Stoudemaire were pretty bad, I don't hold it against him that he played the veterants.

Is there any chance at al that Rose would play for the Bulls again or AD would play for the Raptors? I can't see a trade between the teams working without those contracts involved... If Toronto could move Rose and Carter and receive Curry and Gordon I think it would be a coup for Mr. Babcock but is there not rules against trading a guy like Gordon (rookie) now? Here's a compeltely made up, totally ludicrous (though it works salary wise) trade proposal...
Chicago Receives:
Vince Carter
Jalen Rose
Milt Palacio
Jerome Moiso

Toronto Receives:
Eddy Curry (headcase, but hes something... certainly better than Woods)
Tyson Chandler
Antonio Davis (wow, he started to suck in a hurry)
Othella Harrington
Adrian Griffin (waive him)
Janerro Pargo (hope he can take over for Palacio... probabaly need to gof or some 10 days to find a back up PG)

I won't be upset if the Raptors finish near the bottom again. They'll get a good draft pick and be able to bring in some cheap help. But man do they need to get rid of Carter. I'd love to see him shipped off to a place like New Orleans where the Raps could get their #1 pick back and have a talneted player in there lineup next season.

As an aside, I think Brendan Malone might have been the best coach the Raptors ever had, in terms of winning.

Rediculous. Malone did win some games, but that was because he ONLY played his veterans, his top players. Of course when injuries arose, he used that as an excuse, despite the fact it was the way he used players that lead to injuries.

We'll have this same conversation later this year about the Suns (sorry Fawaz).

Unfortunately, the Suns are indeed a disaster waiting to happen. I nearly jumped when Nash got that concussion, and he's been bouncing off players like a pinball during the games that I've seen. Interestingly, D'Antoni's bench is not loaded with bums - he's got guys that can make meaningful contributions in Barbosa, Lampe and Jacobsen (to a degree), not to mention the injured Zarko. I also wish 2LiveCrew got more minutes. That said, I've been giddy about the way they've started. Their calling card in past seasons has been competing against the better clubs and then laying an egg against a cellar-dweller, but this year they've taken care of the weak part of their schedule. Of course, they continue to get abused by teams with competent bigs and they haven't even seen the Spurs yet. If 'Zo ever gets his buy-out I'd be interested to see if they have any interest in him; maybe they could send a few bodies the Nets' way to sweeten the deal for them.

I'm willing to give Sam Mitchell a bit more slack than some of the other posters. Given their current talent level I don't think this team is nothing more than mediocre. So how do you get better? Spend more money? With the teachers pension fund controlling the purse strings quite unlikely. Draft better players? We'll have to see.

I think the Raptors have decided to try to emulate the Utah Jazz. This means you get a coach who gets in the players faces and takes them out of their comfort zone(Jerry Sloan),you run your offensive sets better than the next guy, team defense is stressed (any malingers such as Carter are benched), you don't take selfish technicals, in short you do the little things as best you can.

Toronto has tried the other approach, what with indulging your star player Carter, having a non-confrontational, easy going coach in Wilkens, it just didn't work.

Will the players buy in? They sure didn't with Kevin O'Neil, but I'm willing to give Mitchell more time, they certainly seem to still be competing hard. For me , this team looks a lot better than any other recent Raptor group.

Vince and Rose are the heart and soul of this team... if those 2 players aren't firing and giving it 100%, chances are no one else is going to pick up the slack... We just dont have the talent for that.

Those players should be expected to drop a total of 40 pts combined every night without fail.

Is this coach Sam Mitchell's fault that his star player is a complete puss now a day and doesn't hack and slash his way to the basket like he used to? No. Mitchell is in a bad situation and its amazing we were even able to lure a coach into this mess.

Rediculous. Malone did win some games, but that was because he ONLY played his veterans, his top players. Of course when injuries arose, he used that as an excuse, despite the fact it was the way he used players that lead to injuries.

Yeah, that was my point. He actually played the veterans and he tried to win games, which is why he got fired, for winning too much. He wasn't as interested in developing young players.

And can we please stop this nonsense about the teacher's pension fund not giving the Raptors enough money to compete? This is not, nor has it ever, been true. The Raptors aren't the Blue Jays, they spend plenty of money.

Actually, money isn't an issue in the NBA with the 'soft' cap (in quotes because the penalties for exceeding it are fairly stiff, 100% of the amount you go over if player salaries, in total, are above a certain percentage of league revenue). http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm seems to be a good site for info on it.

Basically teams must spend between $33 million and $44 million on salaries. There are some exceptions to allow you to go over (special rules for injuries and for a star player) but that is where you have to be. So if the Raptors wanted to go young and dump all high salaries they'd have to stay at $33 million or more. If they spend less they pay the difference to the league.

I think this is what the NHL would love as it guarantees profit for the owners. If payroll goes too high then players pay back up to 10% of their salaries to the league. If a team overspends they pay back the amount to the other teams (in baseball that would mean the Yankees would've had to pay around $70 million in luxury tax last year) if overall salaries are above 61% of league revenues.

Dang complicated, but it does work nice if you own a team.

So you think if justifies losing the game to send them a message?

It's not about sending a message. It's about changing the culture of the team. Benching them for putting their petty emotions ahead of the team is absolutely justified in that context.

And even if you believe that, does it make any sense not to start them for the next game?

Again, absolutely. I would hope that they would have the emotional maturity to respond positively. I have the benefit of hindsight, as the Raps/Cavs game just ended, but Rafer and Loren responded with maturity and played their asses off.

Not starting doesn't mean not contributing.

As for Moiso, what he's shown is that yelling and screaming at him doens't work. As a coach, it's your job to get players to perform. If the way you do that with Moiso is baby gloves, then you use baby gloves.

You're missing the point. "What he's shown" is that he's awful. The Hornets didn't think it worthwhile to re-sign him even for minimum dollars at the end of his contract and he has floated through two Raptor regimes.

Mitchell showed him confidence tonight with the start and he rewarded him with some of the softest defence you'll see in the Association (allowing the 7'2" Lumbering Lithuanian to beat him back down the court for an easy transition bucket on one play).

I didn't say the Raptors don't spend money,(their payroll is 13th in the league),rather to clarify, you won't see them try to win regardless of cost such as a private individual does, as with Mark Cuban in Dallas.

Not a bad effort tonight for a team playing its fourth game in five nights, again I see no indication of a team in turmoil ,or a team quitting on its coach.

I won't be upset if the Raptors finish near the bottom again. They'll get a good draft pick and be able to bring in some cheap help.

Normally, I would agree. However, there are two points working against this line of reasoning:

- the early word is that this will be a weaker than average draft class
- the Raptors still owe the Cavs a 1st rounder for the Lamond Murray/Yogi Stewart trade (the deal that keeps on giving). It is lotto protected, but I'm not sure how long the Raps can keep deferring before they have to give it up (I think I heard 2007)... they'll have to pay the piper eventually and I was hoping that this would be the year.

Haha Rafer Madness.

"- the Raptors still owe the Cavs a 1st rounder for the Lamond Murray/Yogi Stewart trade (the deal that keeps on giving). It is lotto protected, but I'm not sure how long the Raps can keep deferring before they have to give it up (I think I heard 2007)... they'll have to pay the piper eventually and I was hoping that this would be the year."

The Clevland draft pick can be deffered for a long time, not only it it lotterery protected it is 1 pick higher that the Raptors need to finish to give it up each year. I know that's confusing but now they need to finish in 14th place for Clevland to get their pick if they don't next year they will need to come in 13th and so on

miVulgar, I think we'll just have to agree to disagree. So far it looks like it's plausible that Mitchell's ego have cost the team the last two games, and I don't see any benefits to what he's done.

My understanding was that he wasn't going to play them in tonight's game, and I'm glad that I was wrong. Still, I don't imagine Cleveland outscores Toronto by 20 if they start. Particularly Woods.

Again, I think we'll just have to disagree on Moiso. It doens't matter what he's shown, what matters is that he's a part of the team. He doens't respond well to be called out in public (even today I saw Mitchell saying that he's only called out poor play, not poor players... except for one player). If Mitchell was going to play Woods anyways, why not start Marshall or Bosh at the 5?

As long as he's on the team, it's Mitchell's job to work with him. So far Mitchell doesn't appear to have shown an indication that he wants to do that.

OKAYOKAYOKAYOKAYOKAYOKAYOKAYOKAYOKAYOKAYOKAYOKAYOKAYOKAYOKAYOKAYOKAY Scratch the negative comments about Sam Mitchel please, that's Canadian bacon style thinking for ya. Can nobody see that Sam Mitchel is the ONLY one with balls on this team. He's taking it to his players like a man, in their face, on camera, whatever it takes to wake up a bunch a whiney, overpaid, panzy ballers who club more than ball. If you have a problem with Sammy, you can kick him out OF T.O. like over-protective mothers and stroke your favourite whiners ego until he gets a raise.
I say bring the Big Charles Oakster back to slap some lazy... and then trade carter to wherever his mom is not. Big baby momma's boy. ALL of them tick me off, especially carter and moiso. And then people have the nerve to proclaim publically that Sam Mitchel needs to lighten up. Players are making millions of $$$ playing ball like it's a hobby, and you all are trying to protect their emotions. LET THE MEN PLAY BALL, LET THE FEMININE CRY ABOUT IT ALL.

I'll start watching Raptor games again when Carters gone.

Boycotting Vince Carter,
ACT7

I am sure MLSE will miss your dollars.

Babcocks strung out as badly as Ricciardi with the current payroll situation, but I think he has much more flexibility since the bball market is not cost conscious yet, and it is easier to dump contracts, especially for picks. If the Raptors are not better by coincidentally 2007, when all their bad contracts expire, there is trouble.

So far it looks like it's plausible that Mitchell's ego have cost the team the last two games, and I don't see any benefits to what he's done.

If it helps to change the atmosphere of the team then in the long run it's worth it to lose two games, or even twenty games if you want to take a long long term view. And I dont think it's Mitchell's ego that's a problem here. What Alston and Woods did was stupid and immature, and they deserved to sit awhile for it even if it costs the team a game or two. That's not ego, that's a coach doing his job by sending the message that that kind of behaviour is simply not tolerated.

The benefit is that hopefully everyone gets the message and no one on the team ever does it again. Quite frankly I find Mitchell's coaching methods to be quite refreshing.

The events of the past two days aren't the only issue, though. There's also Mitchell's constant "This team sucks! They don't try! They should quit!" rants, and his humiliatingly frequent public dressings-down of his players.
Embarrassing a player in the press is a horrible thing for any coach to do. Mitchell has now done it, by my count, to Alston, Woods, Rose, Carter, Araujo, Moiso, and I *think* Mason Jr (though I can't remember that specific incident). The mature way to handle the situation in Boston would have been to deal with it behind doors, tell the press "It's a team matter, and we're dealing with it." When Alston and Woods started the next day on the bench, everyone would know the story anyway. Mitchell seems to take pride in "telling it like it is", but that's just code to me for "I don't have the self-control to keep my mouth shut."
I just don't know anyone who would react well to being publicly embarrassed by their boss - and I don't know anyone with near the ego of the average NBA player. Sure, they're playing hard now, but we're only a month into the season. What happens the next time Mitchell starts up with his "the sky is falling!" act? And the time after that?

I can't condone an NBA coach's bad-mouthing a player to the press, but Mitchell has at least refused to accept poor play and effort as givens. Without a true A-range player, a star, in the NBA, a team simply cannot expect to win; being extremely well-coached, hard-working, and disciplined can however get you 50 wins and some slight measure of success in the play-offs. This would allow you to grab a free agent or two to get your A-range player in a perfect world. I don't blame the Raptors for going with a tough guy at all. I think he calms down and becomes more private as the season, his first of course, progresses. As any teacher knows, it is far easier to start off tough and then become nicer than it is to do the reverse.

*****

The Raptors have been fundamentally flawed, in construction and approach, since their appearance in the final four some years ago. They assumed everyone's level of performance that year would continue. They assumed that retaining that core--even at a high price--would result in a team ready for annual deep playoff runs. They assumed that fans and FAs would appreciate the retention of these players. They assumed VC was a top 5 player. They assumed in acquiring Hakeem that it was 1990. They have since discovering the very hard way that none of these are true that going for .500 and a first round loss is somehow exciting and valuable. This is a team that is soft, boring, and mediocre at best, from its "best" player down to the 12th man. Getting out of an annual lottery invitation circumstance--i.e. Golden State, the Clippers, the Bulls--may not be easy, but at least under that scenario, some hope would exist. This version of the Raptors is the equivalent of the Blue Jays running out Garcia and Merced (Was Garcia the name of that old Pirates 2B?).

VC is the epitome of a sunk cost. I take great pride in my never having once believed the hype on him (I have the vanity of John Adams sometimes): I immediately saw him as a poor man's 'Nique, another player whom I never liked (Please don't think that I think that 'Nique was as bad as is VC). VC lacks toughness, drive, competitiveness, defensive commitment, passing ability (could be just a lack of trying), and a willingness to do that which made him useful in the first place, namely driving to the net. The Raptors would be lucky to get Allan Houston for him really: Houston and Carter play nearly exactly the same game, except that Houston has the shooting ability to perhaps not hurt his team by doing so. And he doesn't have even 1% of VC's corrosive, destructive attitude.

Having VC on the team, making an A-player's salary, really an A+ player's salary, whilst playing as a C, is killing the Raptors. They can never win with him unless he dramatically changes his entire approach to basketball and to life itself, really. Never. Under no scenario.

They need to trade him for anything that or anybody who allows their cap circumstances to be improved. They probably cannot attract free agents that easily, but they should be faulted for not trying. Utah has gotten a few baubles despite the widespread belief that no FA wants to go there either. Having that payroll flexibility means that they could acquire the expiring contracts of guys more useful than VC anyways. Having that flexibility would also allow them to keep any successful draft picks they may have in the future, too. (This is probably not an issue for current guys on rookie deals.)

Sorry for the long post.

Except for of course Chris Bosh. For the right price, he could be a part of a winning team.

Don't apologize Will, that was great.

I'd like to hope that Bonner could be a usefull guy off the bench for any team.

Excellent post Will. I'd have to sat Rafer is a keeper as well.

I agree Paul, glad someone else is recognizing Bonner's play.

Sorry, guys; I forgot about about Bonner. They do have one or two pieces who are useful. I would just love it, though, if they were willing to turf aside their "stars" a la the Grizzlies when that team moved to Memphis to do as Marc Cohen sang about back in 1991. At the time of the move, trading Shareef, one of my favourite players, for the 3rd pick (and more) seemed very, very risky. However, that pick turned into Gasol. A lottery pick for VC would be ideal. GS? The Clippers? The Raptors need to pull the plug on this little club and let Mitchell mold his own, younger, deeper team. Lost also in my diatribe is that this coach does seem a keeper. He's not calling out guys who could be expected to be a part of a good playoff team thus far: beyond Alston, of course. Lost in this new diatribe is that the Raptors are now looking up at the Grizzlies: something Malone, Thomas, and Stoudamire were supposed to have prevented for far longer than this.

Love Marc Cohn (no "e") ... but are you sure you want a basketball eam "Walking in Memphis"? I mean, I know they never call traveling in the NBA, but ....

Will, Thomas is a terrible GM, I think that if given enough time he's assemble a team that would look up at the Bulls and Clippers.

I could handle trading CVC for a lottery pick and some sort of journeyman swingman to fill the gap while he's gone.

At the same time, Memphis had Jerry West in charge, and I don't know if Babcock will have the same drafting sucess as West.

Anybody else see this in the Toronto Sun?

"Talks have taken place between the Raptors and the New Orleans Hornets ... The scuttlebutt has (P.J.) Brown and a relatively low-salaried Hornet headed to Toronto for Donyell Marshall (whose contract is expiring) and Morris Peterson (who the Hornets tried to sign as a free agent last summer). "

Does anyone else think that this would be awful? Anyway Magloire could be thrown in (what would Babcock have to do for that?). Who could ebt he low salaried Hornet (I'd love to get JR Smith, but he'd be restricted from being trade, IIRC).

Will, that was indeed a very well-written post. I disagree with much of it, though... don't have time to respond to it in depth.

I just wanted to point out one thing: Carter's contract, when signed, was regarded almost universally as a bargain and a great move for the Raptors. If you really "didn't believe the hype", then you're an incredibly rare person, because in 2001 EVERYONE connected with the NBA thought that 'perennial all-star' was the LOW end of what could be expected from him. He finished 2nd in the NBA in 2001 in John Hollinger's PER rating, behind only Shaquille O'Neal. That was, remember, only his third season in the league. You can make a case that Vince is a hasbeen, but painting him as a 'neverwas' just shows that you're not being objective.
Oh, and one nitpick: Vince was and remains a very good passer. I'm not sure what makes you think that he's not. His assist/turnover ratio is extremely high for a non-PG who handles the ball as much as he does, and he is excellent at finding the open man. I'm not really that prepared to offer a defense of this aspect of his game, because in all honesty I have never heard ANYONE question it before.

Ability-wise, he is still an above-average player, even struggling as he has been this season. The destructive attitude is all hearsay and conjecture. There are definitely people who don't get along with him, or like him, but there are also many teammates and players around the league who are friendly with him. And who connected with the Raptors has ever said a bad thing about him? Rafer doesn't seem to like him. Keon Clark badmouthed him after leaving. That's about, other than Mitchell's veiled insults (though he tosses those at everyone). I just don't see any real evidence for this "destructive attitude" other than that fans and the Toronto media hate him. He MAY be hurting the team with his attitude, but I don't really see any evidence that he's worse for the team than Jalen Rose, say.

I agree that trading VC might be the answer to the Raps' problems, but let's be fair about it.

Oh my god... Donkit... good god.
What a horrible idea.
Wow.

I was linked to the article through Pro SPorts Daily. That could be one of the worst...trades...ever. PJ Brown is just about useless at this point (I guess that is a bit harsh, but he definitely is not the player he used to be) and Marshall is a deinfite plus player and Mo-Pete is nice off the bench.

According to an article on RealGM the Warriors want to mvoe the contracts of Dale Davis and Clifford Robinson. Could there be a trade there? Carter for Murphy, Pietrus, and Davis? Could Murphy or Bosh cut it at center long enough (or SF)? What about throwing Alvin Williams and Clifford Robinson in there? I think it'd be very tough for the Raptors to get full value for Vince, but I also think that it's going to be very difficult for them to win with him whining there. I couldn't make a trade work with VC and Rose's contract moving.

Okay, this is getting ridiculous. To those bright minds that question Sam's harsh tactics, get a clue. Believe it or not, the battle is bigger than this year's roster...or the one next year. Handpicked by management, Sam is elbowing his way to the front of the rim.
Ain't nobody ever dunked on anyone or snatched a rebound from someone else by being polite. Jusk ask Half Man, Half a Stat Line.
Personally, it's refreshing to actually see management attempt to implement a system rather than watch individuals try to catch lighting in a bottle.
Players ain't stupid. They know when coaches or GMs are trying to ride them to the promised land. Show me someone who knows they can be replaced and I'll show you someone that puts in work.
You call someone The Franchise and well, that's never worked out has it?

BTW, for anyone who still believes that letting V hand pick Dr. J would have been positive...well, A.English has forgotten more ways to score than Carter will ever learn.
He sure seems to be soaking it all up, doesn't he?

Donkit - I wouldn't mind PJ brown on this team, exactly what we need for a team guy, solid defender, and a guy who has much more touch at the basket than say Lorne Woods.

But that Low Salaried player better be pretty nice in return, that is giving up a lot for just Brown - but we have an excess of perimeter players... a little fire and toughness in the paint would do this team a load of good.

Lost in this new diatribe is that the Raptors are now looking up at the Grizzlies: something Malone, Thomas, and Stoudamire were supposed to have prevented for far longer than this.


Appearances back in 96 and 97 were that the Raptors were far ahead of the Grizzlies and only going to improve. Please don't think that somehow I would defend a GM who prooved himself terrible at the job. However, many fans thought at that time that he had some sort of voodoo connection with Mighty Mouse and would ultimately proove himself to be a great GM. I didn't agree even then.

I just wanted to point out one thing: Carter's contract, when signed, was regarded almost universally as a bargain and a great move for the Raptors. If you really "didn't believe the hype", then you're an incredibly rare person, because in 2001 EVERYONE connected with the NBA thought that 'perennial all-star' was the LOW end of what could be expected from him. He finished 2nd in the NBA in 2001 in John Hollinger's PER rating, behind only Shaquille O'Neal. That was, remember, only his third season in the league. You can make a case that Vince is a hasbeen, but painting him as a 'neverwas' just shows that you're not being objective.


Then I was "rare" (I doubt it). "Everyone" is far too strong a word. I have always found his game to be flawed, and I have always thought that without significant improvements to his game, the most he could hope for was the career of 'Nique (which he is now looking up at, for the record). I suspect I have until the last two or three years expected him to improve as he headed towards his peak, but I didn't think for once that that improvement would be Jordan 86 to Jordan 93. (I just throwing in years there, folks; please don't note that 93 wasn't his best or anything like that. I am no Jordan expert, and I know that.) I thought at that time that Harold Miner was his low-end and 'Nique was his high-end. If by perennial all-star, you mean a guy like 'Nique with good stats on a relatively bad team with no shot in the playoffs but who can also get a great portion of his team's offensive looks, then I would agree with that. Now, I can't even get that as he won't drive and as he has even threatened to boycott dunking. Ugh.

For what it's worth, I thought they should have kept McGrady then even.

For what it's worth, Kobe is the one youngster about whom I believe the hype--with the big addition of LeBron James, too, I should say. Others -- including Wade -- look fantastic, but not transcendental yet. But James and Kobe do.

Having a strong opinion about Carter does not inherently make me unobjective although I freely admit that I have never once liked him. Any player who somehow gets a max deal cannot possibly be a "bargain." Unless you are dealing with not the perennial all-star but the perennial MVP candidate. And Carter was never that. He's priced out of any chance of not hurting a team simply by showing up. If he were any worse, and lower paid, he could be useful. If he were any better and possibly a top 15 player, maybe he could earn his fat contract. This is not a claim he has no talent. This is a claim that at that money, he has negative value and moreover that he is unwilling or unable to make good on his talent through his atrocious "commitment" to defense and his shoot first from as far away from contact as I can do without getting laughed at offensive stylings. I'm not saying he was a neverwas, but he was hyped for his as of yet untapped potential and upside. He's a failed prospect of sorts made. He was a could have been.

Don't just tell me I'm wrong without pointing out how. I will listen.

The destructive attitude is all hearsay and conjecture.

While I couldn't agree more that we have a hard time (far harder than we care to admit) knowing the personalities and work ethics of celebrities and athletes (especially as I think that they are promoting images of themselves to make them into more attractive commodities, too; i.e., I don't care, but I doubt J-Ho and Ben ever even dated), I think that there is more indication that VC is petulant, moody, and destructive: starting with his trade demands, his decreasing lack of effort on the court, and his belly-aching to the media ("No more dunks"), a better case can be made for his having a poor attitude than could be made for him having something approximating "veteran leadership" or "Madsen-esque tomfoolery." Look, if you are a fan of his with a poster on the wall, I'm sorry for being so "harsh"....

Well for some more hearsay and conjecture about Vince,( and a healthy reminder about where there's smoke there's fire),I came across these two little gems while surfing the NBA scene.

First from the Miami Herald;

"More evidence of how South Beach helps the Heat: Toronto's Vince Carter delivered a five-point, 2-for-9 clunker Tuesday after frolicking at B.E.D. past 3 a.m. the night before"

Then from the Newark Star Ledger:

"... Here's how angry Sam Mitchell is with his team right now: The Raptors had just played four games in five nights, but after getting off the plane from Cleveland, they went straight to practice at the Arena yesterday. Vince Carter, however, went to the team's hotel to recover from food poisoning for a second straight day."

Sounds like a pretty committed guy to me,and I'm sure his teamates were very understading that he did not practice.

Wow Will.

I absolutely loved Carter during his first three years.... I remember a sequence of games where he hit the winning shot against Boston at the buzzer, then they're playing the Clippers, never have the lead once during the game, Vince takes the shot at the buzzer and they win.

Then there was the fantastic game against Indiana where Vince fell down, kept his dribble, got up, and buried the three over Reggie Miller for the win.

That's the Vince I'll remember when he's gone.

I disagree that a max player can't be a bargain. Due to maximum restrictions, most maximum players are a bargain, relative to what other players get. Non max players get what they're worth, while most max players are worth more than the max, and are therefore underpaid.

I am not saying that Carter is underpaid though. I wonder how he'll do in the all star voting this year.

Believe it or not, it all started one AS weekend in Golden State...
McGreedy wins (he finished a close 2nd) & V, humbled, has sumpin to prove;
Tracy gets sum recognition & is probably not as bitter;
Butch looks dumb for, @ the time, for not giving the dunk champ some much-deserved burn.
Or not.

Truth is, the L has always had it in for Canada.
Business-wise, sure, it's all about green. Vancouver & Toronto paid their substantial membership fees and Stern got his chance to market to a few million northern hicks. Everyone's happy.

Yet, both teams get shafted through the draft, Steve Francis or A.I. anyone?
Toronto gets shafted through free agency, unrestricted McGrady?
The court was never meant to be level.
Anyone think Bob Johnson would have bought in with the same limitations?
Stern didn't.

I disagree that a max player can't be a bargain. Due to maximum restrictions, most maximum players are a bargain, relative to what other players get.

I won't comment on this. I hadn't thought of it that way before, and I don't know what I think of it yet.

What I will say is that a team these days has room for what, one or two (if two is even possible or likely: Kobe & Shaq are the only teammates I can think of that well paid without trying to figure out the Knicks, a team that should not be considered enviable at all) max deals at any one time. Picking that one player to whom you give max money is all important in determining whether or not your team will be competitive or capable of winning it all. VC's chief competition in my mind (not having considered your new point, Paul) is the max player category. Most teams have one. Having one (Garnett, Kobe, Duncan) that is better than are other max players gives you some chance of winning. Not winning that comparison automatically gives you such a disadvantage that your supporting cast had better be Pistonian. Is VC a good max guy to build around? I definitely say not.

Of course in a general sense a max player can be a bargain: having Duncan or Garnett or a younger Shaq or even a Kobe/James guard type as your max player is getting a bargain for that money. Being the Hawks of the recent past with Shareef, the Knicks with Stephon & Houston, (the Clippers with Brand), the Magic with Steve Francis, the Sixers with AI, or Toronto with VC is definitely not getting a bargain for your dollars. These guys definitely have value and talent, but at their current salaries, they are paid as A+ or A players but contribute far less. Other teams, like say the Spurs who get A+ performance for their A+ contract, are far better off.

Paul D: I don't mean to offend, but I didn't like VC from day one.

Paul D: I don't mean to offend, but I didn't like VC from day one.


I'm not offended, just stating how awesome I used to think he was.

I can't stand Roger Clemens or Steve Francis or McGrady or Kobe, but I'm not offended if you like them. I might be offended if you say Toronto should trade for them though.
:)

Bill Simmons keeps saying that the Raptors are ripe to prove his 'Ewing Theory' - that a team can get dramatically better when its star player leaves. And while he's mostly just throwing out ideas for amusement, I think that it might be true in the Raptors case.

I'll second that. In sports such as basketball, football, and hockey, where opportunities aren't more or less equally divided and deference to some sort of star structure is the norm, teams that are forced to or choose to rely on a faded star, a hurt star, or a non-star really should improve without that player. VC looks a lot like the textbook definition of this theory.

And of course the far better bargain is to draft a franchise type player and pay him the rookie pay scale for that performance: James, Wade, Melo, etc. Rebuild, rebuild, rebuild!

And Of course next year's draft won't be anything like the 2003 draft.

No, it won't, but a high lottery pick is a low paid player, comparatively. The chance still exists for that player (whomever the Raptors ultimately get) to be a stud. What's the new guy this year look like? He hasn't been playing when I've watched this year.

Didn't the Raptors help "prove" the Ewing Theory a couple years back, when Whiny Vince Carter got hurt, and the Raptors went on a hot run to finish as the 7th seed, only to lose to the Pistons in the first round? Ah, crazy Chris Childs and his wild 4-point shot attempts...

What I will say is that a team these days has room for what, one or two (if two is even possible or likely: Kobe & Shaq are the only teammates I can think of that well paid

Unless I'm mistaking "wildly overpaid but still not maxed out" for "maxed out" I think the Mavs had three last year ... Dirk, Finley, and ... Shawn Bradley. Ugh.

Of course, they couldn't afford to keep them all AND a fourth, so Steve Pointguard ends up in Phoenix, Fin goes to the DL, Bradley stays stapled to the bench 42 minutes a game and Dirk steps it up to MVP level.

For what it's worth, I thought they should have kept McGrady then even.

This statement makes no sense, as it was McGrady's decision to leave.

The Raptors couldn't have "kept" McGrady. They offered him max dollars to stay in Toronto and he decided he wanted to play in Orlando.

As for the VC bashing, while I'm not his biggest fan, I find it baseless to suggest he's as worthless as some are suggesting.

Last season, on perhaps what was the least offensively creative team I've ever watched (and I've watched tons of basketball), he averaged 22.5 / 4.8 / 4.8. Question his commitment and desire all you want, but his scoring and passing ability are top notch.

The thing I admire the most about Carter? The way he pisses off the Toronto "basketball" media (I use that term loosely) and their inane questions. He doesn't tell them what they want to hear and they write trash about him and how his grandmother isn't invited to his wedding. Hilarious. If I were a pro athlete, methinks I would do the same (Mitchell's not bad either... love his responses).

I always thought that McGrady left because he was frustrated by his then more famous cousin. I don't have the link, but he criticized VC sharply as he left town. Moving VC could have gotten his signature. I would like to think that the team did offer this during negotiations with McGrady. At that time, only a few fans I knew called it that the Raptors would have been better off with McGrady; most thought turfing VC to keep T-Mac to have been ridiculous and Expo-ish.

Vince Carter has value even without the driving and defense. He is improving as a jump shooter, and his fade-aways and other moves to avoid contact are becoming quite reliable. But points per game average are not to be confused with offensive skill and true worth. For someone getting his looks (at least until this year), it's akin to judging pitchers by wins or saves, hitters by hit totals and RBIs, RBs by total yards gained, and so on and so forth (i.e., situational). For a player for whom no plays are designed or called, I could listen to a PPG defence. But not for a first scoring option on an NBA team. At his money, meaning the highest paid on his own team, VC does hurt. A good player can do that--be priced out of usefulness. Resigning Zaun at $3 or $4 million a year, say, would do that to a player who's useful at a lesser rate, just to throw in another face to the example. Derek Fisher, Steve Nash, & Allan Houston are further examples in the NBA of players who have to be at the apex of their games to even come close to being useful with that contract. Even Konckak (spelling?) had talent.

Dallas and the Knicks are legitimate exceptions in that they both willingly pay the luxury tax. I can't name another team who is willing to do so to that extent. I can't fathom why Toronto would be better off in either scenario (save having a spend happy Cuban to pair with a prudent, independent GM).

Both Dallas

My point isn't that he's worthless:

A) at his best, he's a 'Nique, a fancy scorer who can help a team to 50 wins and maybe, if he shoots the lights out, go far in the playoffs. VC has already done that. If this could be had for less than the max, sign me up for having him.

B) at his worst or average, he's a jump shooter potentially shooting at far too low a percentage to justify his position in the offense and the weaknesses to his game otherwise. And he's paid to keep a star from being on the team, a pre-req for winning in the NBA. For a lower dollar figure, again this is still a valuable player to have.

Games like tonight make me just want to stop watching sports. How can anybody stomach close loss after close loss after close loss?

Bah, I'm venting. I expect the Gods of Baseball to reverse the Jays' luck, at least, in 2005.