Gregg Zaun and Russ Adams were great, but an 8th inning Iguchi homer off Speier was the difference. Dustin Hermansen blew away the Jays in the ninth for the save. Any thoughts to help ease the pain?
Another one-run victory for the White Sox! Boy, those guys sure know how to play little ball! Ozzie Guillen is a genius. He probably told Iguchi to hit a homer there. Ozzieball!
This is the first game in major league history in which two players named "Dustin" appeared.
That is all.
That is all.
The Jays simply can't comeback and win when they're trailing after 6 innings.
Off the top of my head I can only remember one such comeback and that happened in extras vs. the Angels. Does anybody know of any other come from behind wins when trailing after 6 innings?
The Jays had numerous chances. The Jays had the winning run at 2nd in 8th and no outs. Reed moved him to 3rd and then the number 3 and 4 hitters couldn't cash him in.
BTW can someone tell the Red Sox and A's to lose. It's going to take a miracle to catch the Red Sox but the A's are still down the road. But I must say I'm very pleased it's August 4th and the Jays are still "fringe" contenders for a playoff spot.
Off the top of my head I can only remember one such comeback and that happened in extras vs. the Angels. Does anybody know of any other come from behind wins when trailing after 6 innings?
The Jays had numerous chances. The Jays had the winning run at 2nd in 8th and no outs. Reed moved him to 3rd and then the number 3 and 4 hitters couldn't cash him in.
BTW can someone tell the Red Sox and A's to lose. It's going to take a miracle to catch the Red Sox but the A's are still down the road. But I must say I'm very pleased it's August 4th and the Jays are still "fringe" contenders for a playoff spot.
Easing the pain? Easy -- the Jays just took 2 of 3 on the road from the best team in baseball and came within one pitch and a couple of clutch hits from a sweep. Doing that in May or June would've been impressive; doing it in August is simply terrific. This team continues to play just above its head and keep things interesting.
Two other good signs:
- After a rough first inning, Dustin McGowan really settled down and threw bullets the rest of the way: just 2 walks and a single over the next 4 innings. That showed an admirable degree of focus and composure. If the Jays think it's appropriate, he's earned another start.
- Russ Adams has rediscovered his power stroke. Three more extra-base hits today, two of them off left-handers. His average is up to .274 and looks capable of climbing a little higher still.
Some more key hits would have been nice, but the ChiSox have the league's best pitching staff, and at a certain point you just have to tip your hats to the other guys.
The Yankees might not recognize this Jays team from the last time they faced it.
Two other good signs:
- After a rough first inning, Dustin McGowan really settled down and threw bullets the rest of the way: just 2 walks and a single over the next 4 innings. That showed an admirable degree of focus and composure. If the Jays think it's appropriate, he's earned another start.
- Russ Adams has rediscovered his power stroke. Three more extra-base hits today, two of them off left-handers. His average is up to .274 and looks capable of climbing a little higher still.
Some more key hits would have been nice, but the ChiSox have the league's best pitching staff, and at a certain point you just have to tip your hats to the other guys.
The Yankees might not recognize this Jays team from the last time they faced it.
Before this series started I thought the Jays would probably win one game. The fact that they won two and came this close to a sweep has to be considered an achievement.
Good for McGowan to right himself after a rough first. Last night I heard JP say (I'm getting it close): "When we bring the young guys up here it's up to them to take advantage of the opportunity. We can't keep having guys come up and spit the bit out." By that I assumed he meant the struggles of Bush and Gaudin and Miller, maybe others. But it suggested he might get frustrated easily if McGowan has a couple of rough games. I hope he's got a bit more rope than that, because he's got a lot more going for him than the Gaudin's of the world, and the organization has a lot more invested.
Good for McGowan to right himself after a rough first. Last night I heard JP say (I'm getting it close): "When we bring the young guys up here it's up to them to take advantage of the opportunity. We can't keep having guys come up and spit the bit out." By that I assumed he meant the struggles of Bush and Gaudin and Miller, maybe others. But it suggested he might get frustrated easily if McGowan has a couple of rough games. I hope he's got a bit more rope than that, because he's got a lot more going for him than the Gaudin's of the world, and the organization has a lot more invested.
The Jays simply can't comeback and win when they're trailing after 6 innings.
That's true - they're now 0-43 when trailing after 6. (Curiously, they're now 2-44 when trailing after 7.)
By contrast, they're "only" 45-5 when leading after 6, and 46-4 when leading after 7.
Well, the Giants had Dustin Hermanson and Dustan Mohr last year. That's kinda close.
Pretty frustrating loss. It seemed like Wednesday night's game with the sides reversed much of the game. Blue Jays got 4 in the first last night and the Sox had chances after getting within 4-3. Today, the Sox got 4 in the first and the Jays had chances even after they tied it.
I know people complain about the Jays not getting in runs from 3rd today with less than two out. But the Sox blew two chances last night in the same situation. It happens both ways. I'd be interested to see what the stats are for getting in runners from 3rd with less than 2 out. I'm sure they're somewhere but I don't feel like looking for it.
Taking two of three against the White Sox is no small feat. My only hope is that Justin Speier doesn't get relegated to his old role after serving up the Iguchi homer. Nice to see Frasor have a strong outing after getting roughed up the last couple games.
All in all, good series against the Sox. Bring on the Yankees and Aaron Small.
Pretty frustrating loss. It seemed like Wednesday night's game with the sides reversed much of the game. Blue Jays got 4 in the first last night and the Sox had chances after getting within 4-3. Today, the Sox got 4 in the first and the Jays had chances even after they tied it.
I know people complain about the Jays not getting in runs from 3rd today with less than two out. But the Sox blew two chances last night in the same situation. It happens both ways. I'd be interested to see what the stats are for getting in runners from 3rd with less than 2 out. I'm sure they're somewhere but I don't feel like looking for it.
Taking two of three against the White Sox is no small feat. My only hope is that Justin Speier doesn't get relegated to his old role after serving up the Iguchi homer. Nice to see Frasor have a strong outing after getting roughed up the last couple games.
All in all, good series against the Sox. Bring on the Yankees and Aaron Small.
The difference between a team that will make the playoffs and a team that finishs third in the division is the clutch hitting like getting the runner in from 3rd with less than two outs.
If Wells had been able to hit a deep fly ball, the Jays would probably have won the game.
All in all, good game and good series for the blue jays.
If Wells had been able to hit a deep fly ball, the Jays would probably have won the game.
All in all, good game and good series for the blue jays.
As I said earlier, the difference between the Sox and the Jays is much narrower than appears from their W-L records. The Sox are a good club, but not a great one. Their pitching is good, but not that good. The offence is OK, but nothing special. The team defence is quite good, but all in all, this is a team that should win 90-93 games, not 105. We'll see how it all plays out.
Yesterday the Jays get-after El Duque in the first inning, but do not get a runner to second the rest of the game, yet hang on for the win. It is a good win we all agree.
Today the Sox get 4 in the first and hang on to win, and the Jays failed somehow? Was today not "turnabout is fair play" by the Sox? To me the split of the last two games is fair and todays game is not a sign of mass failure on the Jays part.
Today the Sox get 4 in the first and hang on to win, and the Jays failed somehow? Was today not "turnabout is fair play" by the Sox? To me the split of the last two games is fair and todays game is not a sign of mass failure on the Jays part.
Once again, Vernon fails to produce in key situations with runners on base. He is downright atrocious when it comes to "clutch" hitting. It's to the point where I don't even expect him to drive in a runner from 3rd with less than 2 outs, I just hope that Shea can pick him up.
Can't blame Speier, he's been outstanding lately. You can blame the Jays offense however for once again failing to come up with timely hits. They definitely had their chances. Yes, coming into today's game your thinking, okay great they've already won 2 it's asking a lot for them to sweep them. But once the game begins winnable and it starts getting late, that's when the really good teams start to take advantage.
Hopefully they can take atleast 2 from the Yanks.
Can't blame Speier, he's been outstanding lately. You can blame the Jays offense however for once again failing to come up with timely hits. They definitely had their chances. Yes, coming into today's game your thinking, okay great they've already won 2 it's asking a lot for them to sweep them. But once the game begins winnable and it starts getting late, that's when the really good teams start to take advantage.
Hopefully they can take atleast 2 from the Yanks.
"Once again, Vernon fails to produce in key situations with runners on base. He is downright atrocious when it comes to "clutch" hitting. It's to the point where I don't even expect him to drive in a runner from 3rd with less than 2 outs.."
I don't think this is really true. I was listening to Jerry on the Fan for the game today, and I believe that either him or Sawkiw said that Vernon Wells had been hitting 10 for 20 on the season with a runner on third base and 2 outs (Of course, it is now 10 for 21). That is pretty good hitting, and I certainly don't expect him to not to drive in the runner from third when that situation occurs. On the season, Wells is batting .270 with RISP (less than 2 outs) and .206 with RISP (with 2 outs).
I don't think this is really true. I was listening to Jerry on the Fan for the game today, and I believe that either him or Sawkiw said that Vernon Wells had been hitting 10 for 20 on the season with a runner on third base and 2 outs (Of course, it is now 10 for 21). That is pretty good hitting, and I certainly don't expect him to not to drive in the runner from third when that situation occurs. On the season, Wells is batting .270 with RISP (less than 2 outs) and .206 with RISP (with 2 outs).
So I had to be out all day on vacation and missed the game.
Upon review of the boxscore and excellent comments it looks like McGowan had an almost mirror image game as his first start. All-be-it with perhaps not as much luck.
Very jittery first inning and then settles down. On memory I think he had 2-3 more K's last game as well.
For those of you listening to the game - wasn't on TV, was it. Did McGowan show he is at the appropriate level in terms of a chance to suceed?
Upon review of the boxscore and excellent comments it looks like McGowan had an almost mirror image game as his first start. All-be-it with perhaps not as much luck.
Very jittery first inning and then settles down. On memory I think he had 2-3 more K's last game as well.
For those of you listening to the game - wasn't on TV, was it. Did McGowan show he is at the appropriate level in terms of a chance to suceed?
TheGame, that stat is correct, but Vernon isn't 10-21 in terms of getting hits, it's just 10-21 in terms of getting the runner home. So it's hits, sac flies, RBI grounders, etc. Under 50% getting that runner home is pretty poor. I remember a stat from about a month ago saying that the Jays were a little over league average at 67%. The A's (this was before their tear) were last around 29%. Vernon's gotta get it done more than 50%.
Once again, Vernon fails to produce in key situations with runners on base. He is downright atrocious when it comes to "clutch" hitting.
With runners on base, Vernon Wells is hitting .291/.339/.552. With runners in scoring position, .271/.350/.529. On the season, he's hitting .277/.321/.500. Now, I'm no math major*, but it seems every one of those numbers is better with RISP or with men on base. I know it's frustrating when he goes 1-for-5 and leaves two men on, but the season is 162 games long.
As Gerry said, this is just how it goes. The Jays could easily have won today; the White Sox could easily have won yesterday. I prefer to think of this as an "Oh, well" game, if that makes sense.
And if a 879 OPS is atrocious, Ken Huckaby anxiously awaits the adjective describing his hitting.
* Not for another five weeks, anyway.
The difference between a team that will make the playoffs and a team that finishs third in the division is the clutch hitting like getting the runner in from 3rd with less than two outs.
I thought the difference between a team that will make the playoffs and a team that will finish third in the division is the ability to take 2 of 3 from the best team in baseball in their home park.
I don't mean to pick on anyone, but I think that somehow we've become so instant-gratification-oriented that yesterday's game means nothing and the game the day before means even less.
It's not even "what have you done for me lately" -- it's "what have you done for me in the last fifteen seconds".
I thought the difference between a team that will make the playoffs and a team that will finish third in the division is the ability to take 2 of 3 from the best team in baseball in their home park.
I don't mean to pick on anyone, but I think that somehow we've become so instant-gratification-oriented that yesterday's game means nothing and the game the day before means even less.
It's not even "what have you done for me lately" -- it's "what have you done for me in the last fifteen seconds".
And if a 879 OPS is atrocious, Ken Huckaby anxiously awaits the adjective describing his hitting.
At one point in the game, Jerry described Huckaby as a right-handed hitter. I asked myself, quite uncharitably, that yes, he's right handed, but is there another more accurate word Jerry could have used instead of "hitter"?
At one point in the game, Jerry described Huckaby as a right-handed hitter. I asked myself, quite uncharitably, that yes, he's right handed, but is there another more accurate word Jerry could have used instead of "hitter"?
From Yahoo's player page:
Wells, man on 3rd, less than 2 out (through yesterday):
2005: 4 for 15, 17 RBI, 2 BB, 4 K, 5 SF; .267/.304/.733
Career: 29 for 96, 93 RBI, 11 BB, 17 K, 23 SF; .302/.318/.635
I have no idea what the context of this is in comparison to the average player though. Getting in 10 out of 21 runners isn't that great. But those numbers certainly don't look "downright atrocious." If he's only cashed in 10 out of 21 runners from third, that means, along with two homers, he's driven in five other players.
I looked up about a dozen other players for an AB/RBI ratio for runners on third with less than 2 out (I use AB because obviously guys like Bonds would walk a lot so AB is more representative of failure) and it seems that if they get more than 1 RBI/AB, that's excellent (of course, there are factors like other runners on base but I'll conveniently ignore that for now or say, it all evens out).
From my limited research, I found that Manny Ramirez has a ratio of about 359/378. Barry Bonds is 393/383. Gary Sheffield is 405/398. Albert Pujols is 132/137. Alex Rodriguez is 286/292. Ken Griffey is 401/385. Carlos Delgado is 317/305. Derek Jeter is 206/245 but is obviously not the slugger that the other guys I listed are.
Vernon's ratio for 2005 is still above 1 (17/16) and just slightly below 1 for his career (93/97).
What does this mean? I have no idea. But I don't think Vernon has been that bad - at least not to the point where there are too many other Blue Jays hitters that I'd rather have in that situation. Maybe I can be Magpie and make a chart. Then again, maybe not. =)
Wells, man on 3rd, less than 2 out (through yesterday):
2005: 4 for 15, 17 RBI, 2 BB, 4 K, 5 SF; .267/.304/.733
Career: 29 for 96, 93 RBI, 11 BB, 17 K, 23 SF; .302/.318/.635
I have no idea what the context of this is in comparison to the average player though. Getting in 10 out of 21 runners isn't that great. But those numbers certainly don't look "downright atrocious." If he's only cashed in 10 out of 21 runners from third, that means, along with two homers, he's driven in five other players.
I looked up about a dozen other players for an AB/RBI ratio for runners on third with less than 2 out (I use AB because obviously guys like Bonds would walk a lot so AB is more representative of failure) and it seems that if they get more than 1 RBI/AB, that's excellent (of course, there are factors like other runners on base but I'll conveniently ignore that for now or say, it all evens out).
From my limited research, I found that Manny Ramirez has a ratio of about 359/378. Barry Bonds is 393/383. Gary Sheffield is 405/398. Albert Pujols is 132/137. Alex Rodriguez is 286/292. Ken Griffey is 401/385. Carlos Delgado is 317/305. Derek Jeter is 206/245 but is obviously not the slugger that the other guys I listed are.
Vernon's ratio for 2005 is still above 1 (17/16) and just slightly below 1 for his career (93/97).
What does this mean? I have no idea. But I don't think Vernon has been that bad - at least not to the point where there are too many other Blue Jays hitters that I'd rather have in that situation. Maybe I can be Magpie and make a chart. Then again, maybe not. =)
I thought the difference between a team that will make the playoffs and a team that will finish third in the division is the ability to take 2 of 3 from the best team in baseball in their home park.
Sorry NFH, but this is pure BS. I'm sure you are also one of those who said losing three out of four to the Devil Rays is just one of those things. The fact of the matter is every game is important (and if it isn't you might as well forfeit 60 games, since you only need to win mid-90's to make the playoffs). However not every game is winnable either due to poor offense, pitching, or the other team just plays well. You don't always beat the bad teams (as the Jays 5-5 trip through basement proves), so you have to win when you have the chance. Today the Jays had a chance to go ahead with their 'best' hitter up, against a non-K, not so great reliever and failed. Even Jerry Howarth made the immediate comment that that play was a momentum killer, and again brought it up and used it as a bit of a crutch for Speier giving up the homer (which I find a little far-fetched, but heh). Now I'd like you to explain Jerry Howarth being 'negative'. He wasn't, he never is, it was a play that needed to be made. The 'just one game' argument is a load of crap. I hope I never hear it again.
I really get tired of the clutch hitting argument.
Look around the league. EVERY fan seems to think that his team doesn't come up with enough "timely hits." I've heard this complaint from Jays fans, Twins fans, Cubs fans, Yankee Fans, Sox Fans, Reds Fans, Pirates Fans, etc. etc. etc.
It's so tiring. You're not going to cash in the runner on third every time. It seems like every time there's a runner on third with less than two outs, and a run does not score, all the fans groan about how terrible the team is at "timely hitting." But it's silly. Because it just isn't that easy. You're going to fail at bringing in the run probably at least half the time. Just deal with it.
Look around the league. EVERY fan seems to think that his team doesn't come up with enough "timely hits." I've heard this complaint from Jays fans, Twins fans, Cubs fans, Yankee Fans, Sox Fans, Reds Fans, Pirates Fans, etc. etc. etc.
It's so tiring. You're not going to cash in the runner on third every time. It seems like every time there's a runner on third with less than two outs, and a run does not score, all the fans groan about how terrible the team is at "timely hitting." But it's silly. Because it just isn't that easy. You're going to fail at bringing in the run probably at least half the time. Just deal with it.
I was wondering what the jays would do with McGowan. Even assuming lilly could get back this weekend, and be effective, it is worthwhile to give McGowan MLB experience.
If he would be sent to the minors (say syracuse), then next year you have four rookies on a team you hope will be a contender, along with quiroz, rosario, jackson, and perhaps griffin. It leads to a whole lot of inconsistent play ...
But I guess he will be sent to the minors anyway, as the rotation is too crowded; and will probably be back in september when the rosters expand.
If he would be sent to the minors (say syracuse), then next year you have four rookies on a team you hope will be a contender, along with quiroz, rosario, jackson, and perhaps griffin. It leads to a whole lot of inconsistent play ...
But I guess he will be sent to the minors anyway, as the rotation is too crowded; and will probably be back in september when the rosters expand.
I heard on the FAN during the game that Rios is batting .180 with RISP.
He makes Wells look like... (wait for it)... Jeter.
He makes Wells look like... (wait for it)... Jeter.
Apart from McGowan and Quiroz, I wouldn't bet much money on those other guys cracking the roster out of spring training. I mean Rosario has a shot at coming out of the pen. Jackson will probably force their hand a month or two in. And I don't think Griffen is really being considered at all at this point.
ability to take 2 of 3 from the best team in baseball in their home park
Now NFH, do you really think the White Sox are the best team in baseball? I personally think at least St. Louis, LAA, Bos, and perhaps even the Astros with that starting 3 and the A's with their 2nd half mojo are better.
And the White Sox were 3-9 in their last 12 home games going into today. So taking 2 of 3 is nice, but the Sox are overrated and the Jays only scored 4 runs on 16 baserunners (ie stranded 12)-quite a lot of missed opportunities. The Sox stranded just 4 runners.
I heard on the FAN during the game that Rios is batting .180 with RISP.
Somebody should tell whoever said that on the FAN that it's unwise to say stuff that any listener can discover is wildly inaccurate with just a few clicks of a mouse.
Blue Jays with runners in scoring position:
NAME G AB R H 2B 3B HR TB RBI BB SO SB CS BAV OBP SLG OPS S. Hillenbrand 86 102 48 30 7 0 5 52 47 7 13 1 0 .294 .359 .510 .869 Alex Rios 77 100 46 29 5 2 1 41 37 7 22 3 0 .290 .324 .410 .734 O. Hudson 72 98 42 26 6 0 4 44 39 8 12 0 0 .265 .310 .449 .759 Vernon Wells 76 85 35 23 5 1 5 45 39 12 16 0 1 .271 .350 .529 .879 Gregg Zaun 69 84 37 24 3 0 3 36 37 11 15 0 0 .286 .354 .429 .782 Eric Hinske 76 81 52 21 7 0 5 43 38 9 26 2 0 .259 .337 .531 .868 Russ Adams 64 78 38 21 6 1 2 35 39 12 11 3 0 .269 .344 .449 .792 Aaron Hill 49 66 26 19 7 2 1 33 27 6 8 1 0 .288 .351 .500 .851 Reed Johnson 55 65 27 22 2 3 3 39 37 5 9 2 0 .338 .411 .600 1.011 F. Catalanotto 58 57 32 22 3 2 2 35 30 4 7 0 1 .386 .439 .614 1.053 Corey Koskie 36 44 16 10 2 0 1 15 11 8 15 0 0 .227 .346 .341 .687 F. Menechino 28 28 14 1 0 0 0 1 5 8 7 0 0 .036 .250 .036 .286 John McDonald 27 27 7 9 0 0 0 9 12 2 2 1 0 .333 .355 .333 .688 Ken Huckaby 20 22 5 3 0 0 0 3 5 0 5 0 0 .136 .136 .136 .273Someone owes Alex Rios a great big apology. You remember who it was?
Dr. Zarco - I don't know if the White Sox are the best team in baseball right now. I know they do have the best record and I acknowledge your point that there's a difference.
But like I said in an earlier post, today's game was a mirror image of last night's tilt. Last night, the Blue Jays only left two men aboard and scored four runs and the White Sox scored three runs on 12 baserunners and stranded nine.
The White Sox may be a year-long fluke but their 2005 record still speaks for itself. And to take 2 out of 3 on the road despite the White Sox's recent struggles at home shouldn't be sneezed at.
But like I said in an earlier post, today's game was a mirror image of last night's tilt. Last night, the Blue Jays only left two men aboard and scored four runs and the White Sox scored three runs on 12 baserunners and stranded nine.
The White Sox may be a year-long fluke but their 2005 record still speaks for itself. And to take 2 out of 3 on the road despite the White Sox's recent struggles at home shouldn't be sneezed at.
Jerry or Warren.
Though I bet that I misheard. They tend to be pretty good with their stats.
My bad. My bad.
Though I bet that I misheard. They tend to be pretty good with their stats.
My bad. My bad.
Perhaps the person on the FAN meant Rios' average with RISP and 2 out which is .184/.244/.263 in 38 AB going into today's game. That just means Alex is clutch (22 fo 62)with less than two out! Haha, I just had a NFH-moment of optimism. =)
Sorry, my bad. I meant to say RISP with two outs.
I thought that the Jays did very well to take two of three from the Pale Sox in Comiskey. And the third game was just bad luck.
The problem, of course, is that the Red Sox and Athletics have simply decided to stop losing again ever.
The problem, of course, is that the Red Sox and Athletics have simply decided to stop losing again ever.
I don't see that as being a HUGE problem. It just means that we need to beat the Angels et al for the wild card.
Ummm...We took 2/3 from LAA recently, our record against Boston has had SOSH going up the wall, we didn't fare too poorly against St. Louis either (winning 2/3 also), however, I will accept Dr. Zarco's point that we did not fare well against Houston...Given these are all playoff bound or very, very close to it, I'm feeling pretty good.
Sorry, my bad. I meant to say RISP with two outs.
Well, tsk tsk. But no doubt, Rios has truly sucked in that particular situation. And he's not the only one, I fear.
There are two subjects discussed in this thread - the Jays hitting with runners on, and their problems coming from behind - that are worth a bit more scrutiny. The Jays do indeed have problems coming from behind (although at first glance, it also looks like they do better than your average team at holding similar leads. This may mean that it's a wash in the long run).
And it does look like they truly have a fair bit of trouble getting two-out RBIs. (Although, again, their overall run scoring suggests that they make up for less than two outs.)
Anyway, I need a Game Report subject for tomorrow! So I promise some actual research, instead of just randomly shooting my mouth off... With charts and numbers and everything!
"We took 2/3 from LAA recently"
Not that it matters much, but didn't the Jays sweep the Angels?
Not that it matters much, but didn't the Jays sweep the Angels?
The 'just one game' argument is a load of crap. I hope I never hear it again.
I didn't make that argument. And this:
The fact of the matter is every game is important (and if it isn't you might as well forfeit 60 games, since you only need to win mid-90's to make the playoffs).
...is nonsense, because if you forfeit 60 games and then win 2/3 of the remaining 90, you're 60-120.
I said that the mark of a team that can make the playoffs is the ability to take two out of three from the best team in baseball. Now, whether or not the White Sox are the best team in baseball is debatable, but they have the best record in baseball, which is a pretty fine indicator of whether or not they're any good.
Losing to T-Bay stunk. Losing one of three to the White Sox doesn't bother me at all.
I didn't make that argument. And this:
The fact of the matter is every game is important (and if it isn't you might as well forfeit 60 games, since you only need to win mid-90's to make the playoffs).
...is nonsense, because if you forfeit 60 games and then win 2/3 of the remaining 90, you're 60-120.
I said that the mark of a team that can make the playoffs is the ability to take two out of three from the best team in baseball. Now, whether or not the White Sox are the best team in baseball is debatable, but they have the best record in baseball, which is a pretty fine indicator of whether or not they're any good.
Losing to T-Bay stunk. Losing one of three to the White Sox doesn't bother me at all.
Widly off topic, but I wasn't sure where to put this.
I was at SABR yesterday, and will be there again today.
It's been a pretty fun experience. There are baseball nerds from all over (including at least one other member of the battersbox community), and a number of interesting presentations. Some of the presentators are great orators, and some are not, but one thing that comes through in each presentation is a love of baseball.
I've also gone to two interesting panel discussions, one on baseball in Canadian literature, and one on the business of baseball in Canada. I even asked Paul Beeston a question on the last one (about the scheduling of Canadian holidays. I was informed later by someone that it's the Jays who have requested not to play on the holidays).
Anyways, it's pretty interesting, and it's at the Holiday Inn on King if you wanted to come and see what you're missing.
:)
I was at SABR yesterday, and will be there again today.
It's been a pretty fun experience. There are baseball nerds from all over (including at least one other member of the battersbox community), and a number of interesting presentations. Some of the presentators are great orators, and some are not, but one thing that comes through in each presentation is a love of baseball.
I've also gone to two interesting panel discussions, one on baseball in Canadian literature, and one on the business of baseball in Canada. I even asked Paul Beeston a question on the last one (about the scheduling of Canadian holidays. I was informed later by someone that it's the Jays who have requested not to play on the holidays).
Anyways, it's pretty interesting, and it's at the Holiday Inn on King if you wanted to come and see what you're missing.
:)
If I could take just one comment out of all of them attached to this Instant Replay, I would take King Ryan's. I would take it and I would blow it up to large-banner size and I would fly it behind a plane for days and days. Baseball is hard. Only Barry succeeds better than half the time.
I expect that Magpie's game report will finally put some light on this issue, and then everyone should drop it, because complaining about how the Jays aren't "clutch" enough makes it seem like you're an unenlightened fan calling Mike Wilner.
If you forfeit 60 games and win 2/3rds of the rest you are 67-95. Just thought I'd throw that out there :).
From this mornings Toronto Star; Vernon Wells on last night
"You've got to take the positive from it. We came in and did what we wanted to do. We took two out of three. It would have been nice to take all three of them but that's the way the cookie crumbles.''
Sounds like NFH or Joe wrote this for him ;)
Gregg Zaun's take:
"The reality of it is we win two out of three here and we lose one game in the standings,'' said Jays catcher Gregg Zaun, who tied a team record in this one by drawing four walks. "So, that's not good enough. At this point in the season we need to try to win every single game.
"I know that's unrealistic,'' he added, "but I think that's the right mindset.''
Every day I'm more of a Zaun fan than the day before.
Before I'm painted as a totally lackadaisical fan who isn't bothered by losses, can I point out that I'm just responding to the sentiment that the Jays stink because they couldn't sweep the team with the best record in baseball?
Also from Vernon, from the same article NDG refers to:
"Not to mention that I sucked this series."
"Not to mention that I sucked this series."
I don't usually agree with you Aaron, but you are right on this one.
Hank, sorry my rant sounds like I'm putting you down. I don't mean it that way. It's sometimes hard to make a point on a forum without coming off too strong. In any event, my point wasn't that the Jays should have swept the Sox, it's that looking at one game from a season perspective does't make any sense. You say taking two of three from the White Sox makes the Jays a good team. I say it doesn't, otherwise by the same logic you have to say losing 3 of 4 to the Rays, or 2 of 3 to the Royals makes the Jays a horrible team, which just isn't true. You're a true fan Hank, but you constantly change your argument based on the outcome of the game, and then come down on others that disagree. You come down on others for being negative, when Jery Howarth, who I don't think anyone will say is negative made the same point. Context is important. It wasn't some hitter, it was Wells, it wasn't some random situation, it was the eigth of a tie game. No one expected a 'clutch hit' just a sac fly. It wasn't the other teams ace, it was their fourth best reliever. Context, that's why Howarth made the statement that he did, and why many agree. Looking at the situation from a seasonal perspective is useless.
And by Hank I mean NFH or Aaron, sorry bout that.
I get where you're coming from, but I think that your context is just too small -- if one at-bat in one game determines whether or not the team stinks...
As for Howarth, I didn't really think he was being negative at all. I've heard him be negative -- he and Tom were pretty down on the team at times last season. He rightly pointed out that it was a momentum killer. But he didn't say that because of that one at-bat in that one situation that the Jays are a non-contender.
As for Howarth, I didn't really think he was being negative at all. I've heard him be negative -- he and Tom were pretty down on the team at times last season. He rightly pointed out that it was a momentum killer. But he didn't say that because of that one at-bat in that one situation that the Jays are a non-contender.
Good arguement guys, fair points from each side.
I declare it a draw, shake hands Jay fans.
I declare it a draw, shake hands Jay fans.
But he didn't say that because of that one at-bat in that one situation that the Jays are a non-contender.
In all honesty, I suspect that the Jays are, in fact, a non-contender this year. They're too frustratingly inconsistent right now.
However. Consider: they've been without their ace, the best pitcher on the planet, for over a month. They've been without their #2 guy, Lilly, for a couple of weeks. They lost their cleanup hitter just when he was starting to swing the bat well, for nearly a third of the season. The starting lineup often features 3 rookies (Hill, Adams and Rios), and the starting pitching staff features 2 (Chacin, and Bush).
Despite this, the team just took 2 of three from the team with the best record in baseball, in their home park, and swept the division leading Angels. Not to mention they've absolutely *owned* the Red Sox this year. Meanwhile, Dustin McGowan looks as if he may be ready to pitch in the bigs very soon, Adams has been killing the ball from the leadoff spot, Chacin looks to be for real, and Hill has impressed.
And waiting in the wings - Brandon League, Shaun Marcum, Zach Jackson, Francisco Rosario, and (maybe, possibly) Chad Gaudin.
This team is very, very close to be *really* good. I'm beginning to believe that in 2006, the Jays will take a major step forward. The Orioles are in disarray, and the Yankees look to be teetering on the brink of a long stretch of mediocrity.
This year, I'm just trying to enjoy watching Chacin, Adams, Hill, Rios and Bush establish themselves as players. That they're even close to contention is just gravy. Even if they ultimately fail to qualify for the post season, that they're playing meaningful games in August can only help with the development of these young players.
The Jays are 5.5 out with 55 left to play. I'd say that makes them a contender, though a bit of an outside one.