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Slick-fielding shortstop Ray Olmedo was claimed by the Jays from Cincinnati. To make room on the 40 man roster, Ryan Roberts was designated for assignment.


The 25 year old Olmedo has had 2 years at triple A Louisville hitting .280 with fair plate discipline and very little power. He is by reputation (supported by limited data) a fine fielder. At the least, this move will provide Syracuse with a fine double play combination of Olmedo and Adams. On the optimistic side, Olmedo surprises everyone by winning the major league shortstop job outright in spring training.

I like the move.  Thanks to Paul E-O and The_Game for the tip, and Williams17 for the link.

Olmedo claimed on waivers; Roberts designated for assignment | 89 comments | Create New Account
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CeeBee - Friday, January 19 2007 @ 06:36 PM EST (#162237) #
Another good move since the Jays appear to be strong offensively maybe going with a really good field(providing Olmeda is a really good fielder) -poor hit shortstop is better than the other options which are pretty much poor hit-average field or no hit above average field. If nothing else, the competition in spring training should be pretty intense for the shortstop position.
ds - Friday, January 19 2007 @ 08:01 PM EST (#162239) #

5'1" ? damn, that's short.....

I doubt it's true though.  If it was, he would be an awesome leadoff hitter with his ability to take walks.

kinguy - Friday, January 19 2007 @ 08:11 PM EST (#162240) #
MiLB.com says he's 5'11"
cascando - Friday, January 19 2007 @ 08:54 PM EST (#162241) #
Anyone have an idea how good his defence at SS really is?  It looks like he's been playing mostly 2B in the minors in recent years.
XooM - Friday, January 19 2007 @ 10:21 PM EST (#162242) #
Was Ryan Roberts going to amount to anything more than a backup SS in this league? I haven't been keeping up with his progress but I seem to recall a few people making promising comments about him around the time he was drafted.
Jim - Friday, January 19 2007 @ 10:49 PM EST (#162243) #
SS

Roberts doesn't have a legitimate glove at 2b, nevermind SS.
Cristian - Saturday, January 20 2007 @ 02:02 AM EST (#162244) #
If the Jays have Olmedo or Adams at short in AAA does it mean they've given up on Sergio Santos?
Jim - Saturday, January 20 2007 @ 09:55 AM EST (#162245) #
Won't Olmedo have to clear waivers and be outrighted to make it to Syracuse?  Isn't he out of options?

A favorite of some on the Box made it onto the waiver wire as well:

The Diamondbacks claimed OF Alex Romero off waivers from the Twins.



daryn - Saturday, January 20 2007 @ 10:10 AM EST (#162246) #
*Thumbs Up*

presuming he can be assigned to Syracuse...

Marc Hulet - Saturday, January 20 2007 @ 10:36 AM EST (#162247) #
Olmedo is out of options so he will have to go through waivers again to be send to Syracuse. Roberts, on the other hand, still has two options remaining.
timpinder - Saturday, January 20 2007 @ 11:17 AM EST (#162248) #

Assuming Clayton is the starting SS, Stairs is the backup 1B/DH and Phillips is the backup C, that leaves only two spots on the 25-man roster.  Only two of MacDonald, Smith, Hattig and Olmedo will start the year with the Jays, and yet the Jays need a backup at 3B, middle IF, and a 4th outfielder, though in a crunch I guess Stairs could play LF.

So who's it going to be?  I'm really starting to understand why some here have suggested Russ Adams should learn to play in the OF.  I don't like any of the backup options if Glaus goes down at 3B, the Jays don't have a real 4th outfielder, and it seems to me that they have three backup middle infielders.  We'd better hope that there are no injuries this year.

Lucky - Saturday, January 20 2007 @ 12:19 PM EST (#162250) #
What does it mean to be out of options?  Also, does being designated for assignment mean Roberts can be picked up by another team?
Leigh - Saturday, January 20 2007 @ 02:43 PM EST (#162251) #
the Jays don't have a real 4th outfielder

Reed Johnson is the fourth OF, right?

To start: Zaun, Overbay, Hill, Glaus, Olmedo, Lind, Wells, Rios, Thomas.
On the bench: Fasano, Adams, Clayton, Stairs, Johnson.
Starting: Halladay, Burnett, Towers, Thomson, Janssen.
Bullpen: Ryan, Accardo, Frasor, League, Downs, Marcum.

Hopefully something close to that shakes out of spring training.  I see three platoons there, with Fasano, Clayton and Johnson starting at C, SS, and LF, respectively, vs. lefties.
PaulE-O - Saturday, January 20 2007 @ 02:44 PM EST (#162252) #
I really don't get this move to be honest. Maybe this is simply an attempt to spur some competition in spring training... but it does not bode well for Santos
PaulE-O - Saturday, January 20 2007 @ 02:47 PM EST (#162253) #
I don't think Lind even has a better then even shot at having a major league job this year... never mind the idea of taking over our day-to-day LF
zeppelinkm - Saturday, January 20 2007 @ 02:48 PM EST (#162254) #
Leigh, where does Chacin go? Swap him for anyone in the rotation?



Gerry - Saturday, January 20 2007 @ 02:54 PM EST (#162255) #

Leigh, your wish for eleven pitchers is unlikely, when did the Jays last start a season with eleven pitchers?  Adams gets bumped from your bench.

A player who is out of options has to pass through waivers to get to the minors.  Roberts can be claimed by any other team now that he has been designated for assignment. 

Leigh - Saturday, January 20 2007 @ 03:04 PM EST (#162256) #
Leigh, where does Chacin go?

Preferably Seattle, though I can also see him in a Pirate uniform.

I know they need a seven man bullpen, Gerry, which is probably where Chacin comes in my scenario.
PaulE-O - Saturday, January 20 2007 @ 03:11 PM EST (#162257) #
you're nuts if you think they'll break camp with Jannsen and Towers in the rote over Chacin
greenfrog - Saturday, January 20 2007 @ 03:12 PM EST (#162258) #
Bullpen: Ryan, Accardo, Frasor, League, Downs, Marcum.

I didn't really see anything from Accardo to suggest that (as yet, anyway) he's likely to be effective as a short reliever. He has a good arm but seemed to lack command and secondary stuff. I hope he elevates his game, though, because we need bullpen depth.


PaulE-O - Saturday, January 20 2007 @ 03:17 PM EST (#162259) #
I can't fathom any scenario where the Jays would ship Chacin to another team -unless the guy becomes completely unglued. He is a great back of the rotation hurler, he's cheap, and he's receptive to instruction. In fact, if he learns to economize his throws, he could very well be a decent number 3.



Ron - Saturday, January 20 2007 @ 04:27 PM EST (#162260) #
At what point does a player no longer get considered as a prospect?

Is John-Ford Griffin still a prospect (if he produces this season, I imagine he would get a crack at the 4th OF spot)?
What about Santos, McGowan, Marcum, Hattig, Purcey, and Banks?

Are Kevin Cash,G-Quiroz, and Calvin Pickering still prospects?

Rob - Saturday, January 20 2007 @ 04:31 PM EST (#162261) #
when did the Jays last start a season with eleven pitchers?

2005!
Leigh - Saturday, January 20 2007 @ 04:34 PM EST (#162262) #
you're nuts if you think they'll break camp with Jannsen and Towers in the rote over Chacin

It was not intended to be a prediction.
Gerry - Saturday, January 20 2007 @ 04:38 PM EST (#162263) #

Ron:

Technically every minor leaguer is a prospect of some kind.  However if we ask who has a good chance to be a major league regular then Pickering, Quiroz and John-Ford Griffin all miss the mark.

Sergio Santos has to show he can hit AAA pitching, he has the tools but hasn't been able to hit.  Dustin McGowan has the best chance of the prospects to start for the Jays next season but he has to show he can command his pitches.  Shaun Marcum has pitched well for the Jays, and is definitely a prospect, but I see JP putting him in the Dave Bush "cannot win in the AL East" category and maybe trading him.  Hattig is probably a major league .250 hitter and is back to AAA.  David Purcey has to show he can command his pitches to AAA hitters while Josh Banks will head back to AAA and try to develop a ground ball pitch.

Glevin - Saturday, January 20 2007 @ 05:23 PM EST (#162264) #

"the Jays don't have a real 4th outfielder

Reed Johnson is the fourth OF, right?"

As of right now, Johnson will play everyday in LF. The Jays would be best off if Lind is playing everyday in AAA rather than getting one start a week in the majors. When Thomas gets hurt, he can be called up. I still would not be at all surprised if the Jays trade Rios or even Lind to get a starter.

 

Glevin - Saturday, January 20 2007 @ 05:28 PM EST (#162265) #

"I really don't get this move to be honest. Maybe this is simply an attempt to spur some competition in spring training... but it does not bode well for Santos."

A complete depth move. Olmedo will compete for a utility role. He played 2B, SS, 3B, and RF last year (albeit very little at each) so maybe they like his flexibility.

Flex - Saturday, January 20 2007 @ 06:44 PM EST (#162266) #
For what it's worth, Rotoworld likes the Olmedo pickup by the Jays, figuring he probably takes over as the best option at short:

"He offers more range than Royce Clayton and more offensive potential than John McDonald."
Mylegacy - Saturday, January 20 2007 @ 07:08 PM EST (#162267) #

A quick word on Lind.

No matter what he does in Spring, short of something other-worldly, he will start in AAA. The reason is he has a month of MLB time, if he does not come up till Mid-May then we own him for 07 AND six years thereafter. IF he is up all year we own him for one less year. No matter how good he is in his 23/24 old year I guarantee he will be worth much more in his 29/30 age year. The Jays are NOT going to give that whole year up for April and 2 weeks in May of his 23/24 old year.

Leigh - Saturday, January 20 2007 @ 07:33 PM EST (#162268) #
As of right now, Johnson will play everyday in LF.

I agree that that is the most likely scenario.
jgadfly - Saturday, January 20 2007 @ 09:11 PM EST (#162269) #

I believe Accardo still has options and he hasn't really spent that much time pitching in the minors (like Marcum and Janssen drafted as an INF (?) in college). I wouldn't be surprised to see him sent down for some fine tuning as League was.

Amaedo is playing solidly in the VWL and his defense, speed and some OF experience seems to give him a slight edge on Macdonald, Smith (although he could be shagging flies in Duneden too) and Adams.

CaramonLS - Saturday, January 20 2007 @ 10:24 PM EST (#162270) #
It was not intended to be a prediction.

Then what is it?  What you hope happens?
Leigh - Saturday, January 20 2007 @ 10:57 PM EST (#162271) #
Then what is it?  What you hope happens?

Exactly.  [Hopefully something close to that shakes out of spring training, is what I wrote]
Jim - Saturday, January 20 2007 @ 11:37 PM EST (#162272) #
Roberts can be claimed by any other team now that he has been designated for assignment.

I don't think that this is exactly true.  Roberts could be traded without having to pass through waivers.  When they designate him for assignment it is a maximum of 10 days until he lands somewhere.  If I understand it correctly:

A.  The Jays could trade him without having to put him on waivers.  They probably would have had to deal worked out before making this move, otherwise they have zero leverage.
B.  He can clear waivers and be outrighted to the minors (only because he's never been outrighted before in his career, if he had been outrighted prior in his career then he could declare free agency).
C.  He can be claimed on waivers by another team

At some point over the 10 days the Jays would have to put him on waivers from which he could be claimed, but there are situations where he wouldn't be exposed to anyone picking him up.




Jim - Saturday, January 20 2007 @ 11:41 PM EST (#162273) #
No matter how good he is in his 23/24 old year I guarantee he will be worth much more in his 29/30 age year.

PECOTA disagrees with you.  Personally, if he's the best option then I hope that he is up immedately.  If you think you are going to contend, no reason to have a contributor in the minors hoping to save his rights for 2013.  You want to lose a playoff spot by two games when someone could have contributed but you buried them in the minors to save on service time?
cascando - Saturday, January 20 2007 @ 11:53 PM EST (#162274) #
Has Lind's service clock even started running?  I thought that any time as a September call-up didn't count toward overall service time.
Frank Markotich - Sunday, January 21 2007 @ 08:39 AM EST (#162279) #
All time spent on the active roster or major league disabled list counts as service time. It doesn't matter if it's in September, July or April.
BallGuy - Sunday, January 21 2007 @ 09:36 AM EST (#162282) #

I read in Saturday's Globe where Billy Koch claims he has Morgellons disease. Morgellons sufferers say they are "plagued by constant itching, burning and crawling sensations, open sores that won't heal and strange "fibres" (black, white, blue and red) erupting from their skin."

Sorry I can't post a link to the article. I need to be a paying member of their site which I am not.

Things get stranger for Billy Koch.

 

 

Grasshopper - Sunday, January 21 2007 @ 09:54 AM EST (#162283) #
Leigh... Im sorry but I dont like your thinking at all. Chacin and Johnson are going to have to be big players if the Jays are going to beat the Yanks for the division. In order to win the extra games  we didn't win last year we need Starters to pitch longer and base runners. That means our Starters and leadoff hitters are important.  And I would feel more comfortable with our best Batting average guy and a Major Leaguer then  Last years Minor leaguers.
Wildrose - Sunday, January 21 2007 @ 11:16 AM EST (#162285) #
Blue Jays may be still be after Ohka according to this article. I'm not sure about its validity, but Ricciardi does have a good relationship with many Boston scribes.
greenfrog - Sunday, January 21 2007 @ 11:18 AM EST (#162286) #
I agree that Johnson should be starting in LF. Lind has superb potential but looked a little overmatched at times in September (despite his strong numbers). In the last couple of years, I think the Jays have erred on the side of too-fast promotions to (and subsequent demotions from) the big club. I'd like to see Lind get a half-season of consistent playing time in Syracuse to give him more ABs and time to work on his defense.
Wildrose - Sunday, January 21 2007 @ 11:26 AM EST (#162287) #
Here's a good profile of the Japanese pitcher. I imagine health is the biggest question here. 
 
Wildrose - Sunday, January 21 2007 @ 11:52 AM EST (#162289) #
Ohka has a reputation as being a bit "different", but I note Arnsberg coached him with the Expo's in 2001 and so the team may have a good handle on him.
Frank Markotich - Sunday, January 21 2007 @ 11:59 AM EST (#162290) #
Cascando - On September 1, the active roster expands from 25 to up to 40, although there is no obligation to increase from 25 players. But everyone called up when rosters expand is credited with service time, there is no distinction between those who were on the roster on August 31 and September callups as far as service time goes.
Wildrose - Sunday, January 21 2007 @ 12:15 PM EST (#162292) #
Good article on  MLB rules. I believe somebody  asked the other day about super two cut-off dates, Law provides the answer.
Wildrose - Sunday, January 21 2007 @ 12:25 PM EST (#162293) #
More rules stuff on Cot's ( what a brilliant site), scroll down.
Mylegacy - Sunday, January 21 2007 @ 12:47 PM EST (#162295) #

"PECOTA disagrees with you.  Personally, if he's the best option then I hope that he is up immedately.  If you think you are going to contend, no reason to have a contributor in the minors hoping to save his rights for 2013.  You want to lose a playoff spot by two games when someone could have contributed but you buried them in the minors to save on service time?"

Jim, with all due respect to PECOTA, I disagree. Will delaying Lind's arrival 6 weeks end our chances in 07? Will delaying Lind's arrival 6 weeks be a risk worth taking bearing in mind it will save us at least $12 to $16 MILLION in the year he is 29/30, if he turns into the star we think he will? If he's not that good then it's a moot point. Paying a multi-million dollar penalty for rushing a guy over a lousy 6 weeks seems to grate at the Scottish part of my soul, and I'm not even Scottish.

However, If Johnson was traded, or if Wells had been, then I would have brought him up, needs must.

China fan - Sunday, January 21 2007 @ 01:50 PM EST (#162297) #

 

    Ohka's career ERA looks very good.  Do we have any idea why the Brewers refused to offer him arbitration, especially with the shortage of good pitchers in the league?   Was it just the injuries?  But he seemed to have good velocity when he returned from his injury last July, according to the article posted above.

Wildrose - Sunday, January 21 2007 @ 02:29 PM EST (#162300) #
But he seemed to have good velocity when he returned from his injury last July, according to the article posted above.

Actually I thought the same, but if you scroll down to the comments section, an astute fan "Bobby Mac"  , who seems to know what he's talking about, pointed out that his velocity was indeed down.
Wildrose - Sunday, January 21 2007 @ 02:34 PM EST (#162301) #
Actually it was "Koch" who made the velocity comment.
Pistol - Sunday, January 21 2007 @ 02:46 PM EST (#162302) #
why the Brewers refused to offer him arbitration

Well, Ohka made $4.5 million last year and it's uncommon for players to get less money in arbitration than they did the year before.  So I suspect that the Brewers didn't feel he was worth that much for whatever reason.

If the Jays signed Ohka they'd probably end up with a decent 3/4 starter between he and Thomson. 

Perhaps it was just agent talk, but the word was that a team(s) was offering Ohka 2 years not too long ago.
cascando - Sunday, January 21 2007 @ 03:26 PM EST (#162304) #
Thanks for answering my question, Frank.  I'm sure I've read that time on the expanded September roster doesn't count as MLB service time (in the same way it doesn't count in terms of rookie status) but you appear to be correct (according to the CBA).
actionjackson - Sunday, January 21 2007 @ 03:34 PM EST (#162305) #
Re: Ohka, it would be a decent move from a depth standpoint, but I hear he's getting 2 year offers and that sounds a bit rich for my blood. Over the last three years in the other league, he has racked up a 4.77 FIP (fielding independent pitching ERA, not adjusted for league, home park etc), a 1.03 GB/FB rate, a .289 BABIP, 11.91 K/BF% (very low), 6.59 NIBB/BF% (non-intentional walks, reasonably low), a 10.38 IFFB% and a 9.53 HR/FB%, and a 20.99 LD%. Basically, he's neither a groundball or flyball dominant pitcher, who doesn't strike people out, but doesn't really walk them either. He's also been quite lucky as his BABIP should have been around .330, based on his LD%, but has actually been 41 points lower and given the fact that he doesn't really strike people out, he needs to continue with this luck to be successful. Also, on flyballs, he has a relatively low HR rate, which could help him in the Rogers Centre, although that rate may have benefited from his '04-'06 home ballparks. He has averaged 5.72 IP per start over these three seasons.

'04-'06 FIP (not adjusted for league, home park etc) comparisons with other free agents that were available before Thomson signed: Clemens (3.14), Wells (4.11), Thomson (4.17), Weaver (4.67), Ohka (4.77), Redman (4.87), Park (5.04), Sele (5.09), Trachsel (5.21), Jamey Wright (5.27), Ramon Ortiz (5.37), Armas (5.52), Lima (5.59), and Chen (5.65).

'04-'06 unadjusted FIP comparisons with current Blue Jays projected starters: Burnett (3.46), Halladay (3.61), Thomson (4.17), Ohka (4.77), Towers (4.79), Janssen (4.82), Chacin (4.96), Marcum (5.31), McGowan (5.37). These FIP are also unweighted, so I'm pretty sure he would come out as the 4th best starter on the team, which would set up a battle between the other 5 pitchers for the #5 spot, which probably would go to Chacin due to his left handedness. Like I said, it's a good move from a depth standpoint, but I'm not sure he's the best out there at the moment. I'd probably put him ahead of Weaver, but behind Redman and Park, who are better at getting the groundball and have lower line drive rates, although Park might set a record for HR allowed and that combined with his high BB rate might not be such a good thing. It's a pick your poison kind of thing, but I definitely think one more starter needs to be added. I don't agree with others on Da Box, who feel that this will cut off opportunities for the young pitchers since every one of Halladay, Burnett, Thomson, Ohka, and Chacin have spent time in the infirmary over the last 3 years. The only one of the 6 vets who's been consistently healthy (and last year it didn't help much) is Towers, so I think there would be plenty of opportunities for Janssen, Marcum, McGowan, and even Rosario if they decide to try him there.

Like I said good depth move, but I'm not sure he's worth 2 years. At least JP has said he won't sign Tony Armas Jr. who had the least IP per start of any starter that made a total of 50 starts over the last 3 years (it wasn't even close) at 5.04. Bleccchhh!!! What do the other Bauxites think of Ohka on a 2 year deal, seeing as that's what it looks like it will take? I wonder if JP can use our competitive edge on Pittsburgh and Washington and the prospect of working with Arnsberg again to lure him into a 1 year plus an option deal. I'd be much more comfortable with that.

Wildrose - Sunday, January 21 2007 @ 03:46 PM EST (#162306) #
Here's Ohka's game log. Some good , some bad after his return from injury. Any way you slice it he's a risk, but I agree with AJ, if cheap and healthy enough, he may be a reasonable depth signing.
actionjackson - Sunday, January 21 2007 @ 04:17 PM EST (#162308) #
I'm not sure if it will influence Ohka's decision or not, but I was at this game. We all thought we were witnessing history when he zipped through the first 19 consecutive batters, on his way to a complete game 2 hitter, facing just 4 over the minimum and throwing only 98 pitches. If it hadn't been for the clumsy defense behind him, he would've easily pitched a shutout and might well have pitched a perfect game. Not a good day for the home side especially when the local denizens as well as some Expos fans started rooting for the historical possibilities. OK, I admit it I was one of them, but how many chances do you get at a perfect game? At the very least he has some fond memories of the Rogers Centre (then SkyDome), as it tied for his career best Game Score of 83.
Glevin - Sunday, January 21 2007 @ 05:53 PM EST (#162311) #

"Ohka's career ERA looks very good.  Do we have any idea why the Brewers refused to offer him arbitration, especially with the shortage of good pitchers in the league?"

I like Ohka as a cheap back of the rotation risk. He is however, incredibly injury-prone now and his stuff, never the best, has lost some of its bite. Also, his K/BB ratio has been getting worse every year. If they have to give him a 2 year deal with guaranteed money, I probably wouldn't do it

 

andrewkw - Sunday, January 21 2007 @ 05:53 PM EST (#162312) #
I was at that game too.  Forgot it was Ohka who threw that gem. 

Maybe 1 year plus an option based on say 160 innings.

Jim - Sunday, January 21 2007 @ 07:16 PM EST (#162313) #
Jim, with all due respect to PECOTA, I disagree. Will delaying Lind's arrival 6 weeks end our chances in 07? Will delaying Lind's arrival 6 weeks be a risk worth taking bearing in mind it will save us at least $12 to $16 MILLION in the year he is 29/30, if he turns into the star we think he will?

To me if he is ready, he is ready. You seem to be quite sure that Lind is going to be a player that demands 12-16 Million a season.  He has little to no defensive value at age 23, that isn't going to improve at age 30.  There is certainly a chance that he will have a better 2007 then he would 2013.  There is also a chance that you won't even care where he is by 2013.  Plenty of better prospects then Lind have not had good careers.

Teams that are worried about service time concerns seem to have done nothing but stunt the growth of the player and alienate them for keeping them buried.  As an example of the opposite, look what Capuano said about the Brewers paying him an extra 100k last season.

I think it's simple at this point for the Jays, if he helps you win and you can give him enough playing time then you keep him in Toronto.  What financial impact that may have in 2013 should be way down the list of concerns.
Ron - Sunday, January 21 2007 @ 07:48 PM EST (#162315) #
A team should never hold down a player in the minors if he's ready to produce at the major league level every day. This is especially true for the Jays who are currently in a win now stage and are no longer rebuilding. And for the record I feel like Lind should start the season at AAA. Considering the Jays still view him as a LF, I want Lind to see game action everyday instead of once or twice a week. Lind rotting on the bench with the Jays, isn't going to help his development.


actionjackson - Sunday, January 21 2007 @ 08:02 PM EST (#162316) #
Personally, I don't feel Lind is ready defensively and at least 2 months of starting everyday in LF in AAA would do him a world of good. Don't forget that even with Vernon Wells meteoric rise in 1999, he wasn't a major league regular until 2002, and I don't think anyone here would say Lind has as much overall raw talent as Wells. If a trade of Rios for pitching becomes a necessity (and I hope it doesn't), I would still pick up a stop-gap outfield solution before throwing Lind to the wolves. When he demonstrates he can handle LF on an everyday basis and as long as his bat still warrants it, he should be promoted, but not before then.
Mike Green - Sunday, January 21 2007 @ 08:29 PM EST (#162317) #
Lind's a fine pure hitter.  On the major league roster, he could easily get 400-500 at-bats between starting in left-field about 1/2 the time and spelling off Frank Thomas once a week.  Reed Johnson could easily get 500 at-bats, splitting the left-field job and backing up Wells and Rios.  As Jim said, the object should be to win in 2007.
greenfrog - Sunday, January 21 2007 @ 09:07 PM EST (#162318) #
Lind's a fine pure hitter.

Lind's a 23-year-old who has hit exceptionally well over the course of two minor league seasons. He's had 348 AB at AA, 109 AB at AAA, and 60 AB at the major-league level. Whether he's a fine, pure major-league-calibre hitter will take at least a couple of years to establish.

actionjackson - Sunday, January 21 2007 @ 09:43 PM EST (#162319) #
andrewkw, I like the idea of an option based on IP, but I would nudge it up to 180 IP, which he has reached in 3 of the 5 years he's been a full-time starting pitcher. If you could get 180 IP (no guarantee at all) out of him, you'd have to feel a lot better about the rotation for the upcoming year. There still wouldn't be a true #3, but there would be a deeper pool of #4's and #5's to choose from.

Incidentally, Ohka's been quite comfortable against the AL East in his career (note the small sample size and results from a long time ago, but let's just look for fun).

Against the AL East including the Jays (who he's killed), he is 7-2 in 15 G, 13 of them starts, with 2 CG and 1 SHO and a 1.97 ERA. In 91 and a third innings, he has the following peripherals:  1.01 WHIP,  7.78 H/9,  1.28 BB/9,  4.73 K/9,  0.69 HR/9,  and 3.69 K/BB. Again, sample size has to be taken into account, but it might show that he won't have too much of an adjustment, or it could show nothing at all, we're just having fun with numbers.

In AL East ballparks including the Rogers Centre, he is 8-8 in 26 G, 21 of which are starts, with the same 2 CG and 1 SHO and a 2.89 ERA. In 131 IP, his peripherals have broken down like this:  1.21 WHIP,  9.07 H/9,  1.85 BB/9,  4.67 K/9,  0.76 HR/9,  and 2.52 K/BB. Sample size, sample size, sample size but he has been here (in the AL East) before and he has had success here. His stuff has probably slipped since the bulk of these numbers were recorded with Red Sox between 6-8 years ago, nonetheless he's still probably a better option than Towers, Chacin and the kids. He's probably worth 1 year with a 1 year option kicking in if he reaches a certain amount of innings, hopefully around 180. He also knows Mr. Arnsberg and went 1-4 in 10 starts, with a 4.77 ERA (ERA+ of 97), back in 2001 with Montreal. I'd gladly take an ERA+ of 95-100 in 180 innings. I know it's asking a lot, but it's possible. It would replace Lilly's innings, but not his quality. It's very important to stick an IP carrot in there, so that he will be more motivated (barring injury) to take the ball every fifth day. I'm sure there are some IP based incentives in Thomson's contract as well.
actionjackson - Sunday, January 21 2007 @ 09:56 PM EST (#162320) #
One drawback to Ohka though is that the injury he sustained was a partially torn rotator cuff. He opted for rest and rehab, which means it's still probably partially torn. Please JP don't use "Dr. Nick" to examine this one.  ;)
andrewkw - Sunday, January 21 2007 @ 10:28 PM EST (#162321) #
180 would be ideal but 160 is more realistic imo.

There is a good chance he may miss some starts since as already mentioned he did not have surgery.

If Ohka can pitch 160 innings, then he would be a good bet to at least be a 5th starter in 2008.  Of course one would hope, one of the many in house 4/5 options would at least solidify themselves as legitimate 5th starter by 08.   However if everything worked out this year then he could always be traded next year to whoever is in our position this year even if its for next to nothing or nothing at all, but that's really getting ahead of ourselves.  I just think the jays are much better with one too many starters then one too few. 

PaulE-O - Sunday, January 21 2007 @ 10:56 PM EST (#162322) #

I dont' see how Johnson would get 500 at-bats platooning LF at all, which is what JP and Gibby are looking for this year - especially with Stairs coming off the bench.

 

There's next to zero chance that Lind breaks camp with the club. Stairs will DH when Thomas has a day off. Lind may turn out to be an everyday major-leaguer, but he's still very raw - particularly his footwork and glove (which go along with a less than average arm).

I can't for the life of me understand why someone would "want" Jannsen and Towers in the lineup over Chacin - two soft throwing righties with meatball fastballs over a crafty lefty who gives a different look, and has good cutting movement on his fastball - like I'm trying to think of the logic here but it totaly escapes me.

Jim - Sunday, January 21 2007 @ 11:05 PM EST (#162323) #
I'm enjoying diving into the PECOTA cards.  Travis Snider's number one comp?  1998 Vernon Wells.

Scariest position for the Jays?  How about catcher - where Phillips has a weighted mean projection of 228/278/328.

The pitchers are interesting.  Seems that PECOTA likes Janssen over Marcum/Taubenheim/Towers/Chacin in approx that order.  Thinks very little of Thomson in his Atlanta projection, about equal to Towers.  Like most of us it sees a complete hit or miss with McGowan, heavily tilted towards 'miss'.  Really likes Accardo, doesn't really consider Banks or Purcey prospects.  The system like League a lot, thinks that Davis Romero could contribute and would file Ricky Romero under bust.  Do yourself a favor and don't compare R. Romero to Maybin.  Puts Maybin at a .282 EQA his age 22 season in 2009. 

I am struggling with one concept:  Does anyone know why the  VORP projections on the  "Five-Year Forecast" seem to make little sense?  I'm looking at Delgado and it projects very constant rate stats and a healthy amount of plate appearances - but the VORP slides by over 8 runs (30.2 to 22.0) even when he puts up the same EQA (.300) in both the 07 and 08 projection.  There is only a 19 plate appearance difference between the two seasons.  It seems to look the same way on many cards, and it drives down the WARP projections pretty much across the board in the five year, peak and MORP calculations. 

Anyway, the pretty charts and graphs are fun, especially the stars and scrubs graph.  I take the multi-year projections with a big grain of salt, but I do think the 2007 projections are probably the most reliable of all the publically available numbers.


Jim - Sunday, January 21 2007 @ 11:08 PM EST (#162324) #
Chacin

Equivalents 2006 17 starts in majors

4.5 k/9
3.7 bb/9
1.7 hr/9

He was lucky to get off with the ERA he had.  I watch him pitch and the entire foundation seems to be a house of cards.  I can live with never seeing Towers pitch again, but personally I have zero faith in Chacin.
Pistol - Sunday, January 21 2007 @ 11:18 PM EST (#162325) #
Scariest position for the Jays?  How about catcher - where Phillips has a weighted mean projection of 228/278/328.

I was actually surprised at how optimistic PECOTA was about Thigpen - .255/.327/.402
Grasshopper - Sunday, January 21 2007 @ 11:36 PM EST (#162326) #
I Like the way you think PaulE-O.  Chacin is a fantastic Value and far and away better then those two meatball righties.  Dont get me wrong I like Janssen and Towers just fine but they are not Chacin.
Mark - Monday, January 22 2007 @ 12:11 AM EST (#162327) #
I really enjoy the MORP category. For the most part it appears that almost every Jay is "worth" more than what the Jays are paying. The big surprise for me was Aaron Hill, who they value at close to 13 Million.

It would be interesting to see what the Jays MORP payroll would be for the 07 roster.
Wildrose - Monday, January 22 2007 @ 10:26 AM EST (#162334) #
Latest on Ohka.
Mike Green - Monday, January 22 2007 @ 11:00 AM EST (#162336) #
A favorite of some on the Box made it onto the waiver wire as well:
The Diamondbacks claimed OF Alex Romero off waivers from the Twins.

Raises hand.  Alex sure had a miserable time in triple A at age 22. I have a lot of respect for Arizona management (although they may rue the decision to choose Justin Upton over Alex Gordon in 2005); I consider it a good sign that he has ended up in that organization although the opportunity for him is obviously limited.  Speaking of which, I have added a question in the "You Be the Manager" thread about the Snakes.
timpinder - Monday, January 22 2007 @ 11:50 AM EST (#162339) #

First of all, regarding Chacin, I also think he'll get bombed again this year.  The more he's seen, the more he's hit.  Barring any trades, by mid-summer I envision a rotation including Halladay, Burnett, McGowan, Marcum and one of either Thomson, Towers, Ramirez, Janssen, or maybe R. Romero.  I have no faith in Chacin.  His stuff is marginal and his peripherals are weak.  Chacin's success was dependent on his cutter, which is also the pitch that caused his elbow injury.  He'll either throw the cutter and get hurt, or he won't throw the cutter and he'll get demolished.  Either way I'm not banking on Chacin producing much better than a 5.50 ERA.

On a completely seperate note, Rotoworld's Matthew Pouliot has the Jays and the rest of the AL East's Top 10 Prospects list up on the main MLB page.

Mike Green - Monday, January 22 2007 @ 12:43 PM EST (#162342) #
Every year, people say Chacin is lucky.  It's not true.  His career splits available on Baseball Reference are suggestive of a pitcher who for pretty obvious reasons functions better with runners on than with the bases empty (with runners on first, he induces double plays at a healthy rate and controls the running game very well, and with multiple baserunners on, he simply does seem to bear down).  His career ERA is 4.05 in 300 innings.  His K rate is obviously not in the safe zone, but the difference between him and Mark Buehrle 3 years ago is really control.  That really is the nub of the matter.  If he allows 35% of leadoff hitters to reach base, as he has in the past, he is not going to have a great career.  But, he's certainly young enough and smart enough to think that he can develop in this regard.
Ryan Day - Monday, January 22 2007 @ 12:51 PM EST (#162343) #

First of all, regarding Chacin, I also think he'll get bombed again this year.  The more he's seen, the more he's hit.

 I don't think the numbers back that up. He started four games against Boston in 2006, and came away with a 3.43 ERA, giving up 3, 2, 0, and 3 runs. If they were figuring him out, the didn't show it very well.  In 2005, he made multiple starts against Baltimore, Seattle, and Tampa with good results, while in similar explosure the Red Sox and Yankees beat him up. In September, he bounced back with four good starts in five tries. It's true that he gets less effective as the game goes on, but that can be attributed to his tendency to throw a lot of pitches.

 His comps at BB-ref include Kirk Rueter, Brett Tomko, and Donovan Osborne - guys who weren't spectacular by any stretch, but were reliable, average-ish pitchers, the sort most teams need unless they've got five Cy-Young candidates (which the Jays certainly don't) Maybe he won't survive, but I don't think you can assume he won't, and assuming that guys like Towers and Thomson will be better seems spectacularly optimistic. Chacin's certainly earned the right to a starting slot until he proves he can't handle it.

 He doesn't need to be signed to a long-term contract or anything, but he's earned the right to a spot in the rotation until he proves he can't handle it, or until someone much better comes along.

timpinder - Monday, January 22 2007 @ 01:19 PM EST (#162346) #

I hope I'm wrong and Chacin is a solid #3 starter.  Mike Green has a good argument but one point that I made that was not addressed was the Catch-22 regarding Chacin's cutter.  Scouts credit the development of his cutter as being the catalyst for his breakout year during his 4th AA season.  The doctors also credit the cutter as being the cause of his injury in 2006.  I worry that if he throws his cutter consistently he'll end up on the DL, and if he doesn't throw it he'll get hit.

Lee - Monday, January 22 2007 @ 01:37 PM EST (#162348) #

Mylegacy,

The Jays are NOT going to give that whole year up for April and 2 weeks in May of his 23/24 old year.

You may not have heard, but games played in April and early May actually do count in the standings...

Sorry for the sarcasm, but geez, at some point you have to stop worrying about what is going to happen six bloody seasons from now, and put together the best roster from what you have available in an attempt to actually win. I believe that the Jays are at this point now. The best roster they could put together includes Lind, for the whole year, so that is what should happen. That said, I have absolutely no faith that Lind actually will start the year in the majors...

Greenfrog,

I agree that Johnson should be starting in LF. Lind has superb potential but looked a little overmatched at times in September (despite his strong numbers).

He can look however he wants as long as he's putting up that .322 EqA.

Ryan Day - Monday, January 22 2007 @ 03:16 PM EST (#162359) #

Scouts credit the development of his cutter as being the catalyst for his breakout year during his 4th AA season.  The doctors also credit the cutter as being the cause of his injury in 2006.  I worry that if he throws his cutter consistently he'll end up on the DL, and if he doesn't throw it he'll get hit.

Then that would be a very good reason to bump him from the starting rotation. But maybe the Jays can minimize his workload and reduce some of the stress on his elbow. Even if Chacin is, at best, a 180-innings-a-year pitcher with an around-average ERA, that still has value.

 I don't think he's a sure thing to succeed, but I have to take issue with the idea that he's destined to fail. Maybe he won't work out, and if another team offered a good deal for him, I'd certainly take it. But for now, he has had MLB success, he has a reasonable chance of more, and he's still going to be cheap for another couple of years. Assuming he's going to fall apart and tossing him away seems like a huge waste.

greenfrog - Monday, January 22 2007 @ 04:46 PM EST (#162368) #
He can look however he wants as long as he's putting up that .322 EqA.

Hard to tell much from 60 AB. Josh Phelps was a monster when he first came up (in his first full half-season, over 265 AB, Josh hit .309/.362/.562). His minor-league pedigree was also excellent (career line: .288/.360/.524).

I think Lind has a chance to be a very good hitter. But it's too early to tell whether he's going to be a star hitter. And I think that the total package (offence and defense) that Johnson brings in the first half of 2007 is probably higher than what Lind can offer.

Lee - Tuesday, January 23 2007 @ 11:10 AM EST (#162410) #

Greenfrog,

You're right; one can't necessarily predict Lind to continue what he was doing in September from such a small sample. However, I think he did enough to show that he is one of the four best OF we have available, so I believe he should be on the ML club. If it turns out that Johnson is better to start off with, then do that; that can be figured out in ST. My point is that every decision about this club at this point should be made with the mentality of winning NOW, which means that Lind should be at least the 4th OF. Of course, the counter-argument is that spending to much time on the bench could hinder his development, but I don't buy that at all.

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