Joe Torre, the eighth-winningest manager in major league baseball history, is now, as they say, a free agent. In a twist on the expected "will they bring Joe back?" storyline, it was Torre's decision to leave the Bronx Zoo.
Although it would have been a pay cut, the Yankee offer he turned down was for a $5 million, one-year contract that still would have made him the highest-paid manager in baseball.
Whatchathink, Bauxites?
Looked like a slap in the face from the Yankees upper management from the perspective that they were offering him a paycut and only offering him a single year for the job he has done with the Yankees. He isn't worth the money (is any manager in baseball worth 7+? or even 5?), but then again no manager is.
With all that said, I still like his managing style/roster construction a good deal more than a lot of other guys out there.
This will blow up in the Yanks faces. To offer only a one year deal - Joe knows he will have to answer "will you be fired" questions every time they drop 2 in a row. I don't think the benefit of Torre as Yanks mgr for the last 12 years has been roster or game-managing related. To me his strength is dealing with personalities.
Yankees finish 3rd in East in 08 and I predict 4 managers over the next 5 years
I believe the offer was:
2008 base of $5m. $1m bonus for reaching playoffs. $1m bonus for reaching ALCS. $1m bonus for reaching World Series. If they reached the World Series, a 2009 option would vest that was for a guaranteed $8m.
So the contract was for $5-7 over one year or $16m over two years. I think it's a very fair offer from the Yankees and seems suitable to their circumstances. However, Joe can get more guaranteed money (over more years) by going elsewhere. He won't see $8m per annum from anybody though.
I don't know that the dollar figures themselves are especially meaningful. And I know it seems silly fretting over poor Joe's millions when he's hardly lamenting the salaries of those of us here at Da Box. But I think the deal was insulting on two fronts.
First, the one-year offer would make him a lame duck in 2008. A man with his track record shouldn't be given an audition. Second, and more importantly, there seems to be an unspoken message. If only you'd try harder to succeed, Joe, you'd earn those bonuses and the vesting option. It's all there for you, if you just want it enough to make it happen. Absent those incentives, just look at how the past four years have gone. If you'd had incentives then, who knows how things might have gone?
The offer was structured on the premise that Joe needs carrots to succeed in the post-season, that his pride and professionalism aren't enough to keep him motivated.
He was right to turn the offer down, an offer which was designed to be turned down and leave people with the belief that it was Torre who walked away from the Yankees and not the opposite. I'm quite sure the public will see through the charade, though, much to the chagrin of the new Yankee power base.
The first thread has been yanked (or dis-yanked, to be precise). Let the unravelling begin.
They made him an offer he couldn't really accept. I'm not sure that they wanted to make him out as a bad guy, they probably just didn't want to themselves seem so evil as to not make an offer.
On another note, I'm watching a Matt Holliday interview on FOX and this dude has a seriously pointy head - it's kind of ridiculous! If anyone else has seen him without a hat, they will know what I mean.
On another note, I'm watching a Matt Holliday interview on FOX and this dude has a seriously pointy head - it's kind of ridiculous! If anyone else has seen him without a hat, they will know what I mean.
Same here. Reminded me of the coneheads in the stands whenever David Cone was pitching.After talking it over with my wife, I've an announcement to make.
Press Release: October 19th 2007
"It is with great pleasure and pride that Mylegacy, a regular lurker and sometime poster at Da Box, and other baseball sites of renown, announces that he is prepared to accept the deal recently turned down by Joe Torre.
Mylegacy said; ' It'll be a scrimp having to make it on so few million but the wife has promised to stop shopping at boutiques and shop only at Wal-Mart to help us save a few pennies. Becasue of her heroic willingness to sacarifice it made me realize I should be prepared to give a bit on my financial botton-line as well. I realistically believe that with the team George's Baby Boys will assemble I may be able to compete with the Jay's and other AL East powerhouses.'
Mylegacy will be available for press conferences on Yes Network at his usual fee.
"And the Rock Man said, "Say, what's happening with you boys. You look like you pretty shook up. You been goofin' with the bees?" And Oblio told the Rock Man that they were banished and asked him whether or not this was the Pointless Forest.
The Rock Man said, "Say, babe, there ain't nothing pointless about this gig. The thing is you see what you want to see and you hear what you want to hear. You dig? Did you ever see Paris?"
"No."
"Did you ever see New Deli?"
"No."
"Well, that's it. You see what you want to see and you hear what you want to hear."Given that the Yanks haven't won the World Series since, what, 2000, I'm surprised that they offerred Torre a new contract. As some have speculated here, perhaps they made an offer they figured would be turned down in order to look better.
I wonder about the true value of a baseball manager. How do you evaluate Torre's (or any manager's) performance? Sure the Yanks have won a lot of games under him, but how much is due to Torre and how much is due to the incredible talent that the team puts on the field game after game, season after season? I've never seen any method of making that evaluation that makes sense to me. To me the idea that a manager is worth $7 million a season would seem to imply that he is directly responsible for several wins a season that other managers don't generate, and I don't know that Torre did that.
It will be interesting to see what kind of offers Torre gets. How much do the next 2 or 3 highest paid managers make??
Anyone interested in throwing out a line on Posada now? Perhps it's not a given he returns to NY now...
1st., to MatO - You're hired! I'll need someone to blame.
2nd., to JustinD - you say: "On the reverse side, a rotation of Pettitte, Joba, Hughes, Kennedy and Wang would be pretty formidable." True. However young pitchers will break your heart. While Joba, Hughes and Kennedy have wonderful upside there will be, no question, growing pains. The REAL strength of the Yanks over the years is that their millions has allowed them to avoid having to spend time growing the children - they've usually just picked them off someone else's tree when they were ripe. This would turn the Yanks into a, more or less, NORMAL team in that they'd actually have to experience "growing pains." That'll be a whole new scene for the pinstripers and their IQ-less fans.
Question: If you are in the Jays front office are you happy or sad that Torre is gone?
Torre has had a great record of getting to the playoffs, is this due to the Yankees large payroll or Torre's managerial abilities? Yankee teams before Torre had large payrolls and didn't make the playoffs. The largest payroll teams don't always make the playoffs. Torre was able to bring the veteran teams together and you never heard much backbiting or sniping about the manager. If I was in the Jays front office I would be happy about Torre's exit as there is a greater chance of internal dissent with a non-Torre team.
The two suggested replacements for Torre are not guaranteed successes either. Don Mattingly has never managed at any level and so is a totally unproven or untested commodity as a manager. Joe Girardi was successful in Florida but his style was to micro-manage and tightly control a young team. That approach will not work with a veteran team like the Yankees, some of whom played with Girardi. Can Girardi change his style to work with a veteran laden team?
The major criticism of Torre has been his bullpen management where he works with a short bullpen and often burns them out before the end of the season. The Jays will be sorry to lose that aspect of Torre's managing but that had more of an impact on the Yankees playoff performance than the regular season.
If I was in the Jays front office I would be happier today with Torre gone.
If I was in the Jays front office I would be happier today with Torre gone.
I think it's not so much Torre himself leaving that represents bad news for the Yankees, but rather the potential ensuing domino effect. Players loyal to him like Posada, Pettitte, and Rivera may be less likely to return, particularly if they feel that Torre has been betrayed. In a thin FA market, having the money to replace these three may be moot. And if Rodriguez leaves, that's just more unreplaceable talent out the door (though I can't see his decision being connected to Torre whatsoever).
As soon as 2008, the Yankees could find themselves in a major transition, especially if the talent drain is severe. Their resources would allow them to re-man the juggernaut eventually, but not necessarily for next season.
I've never been a huge Torre fan. His biggest "skill" (IM(H)O) was his ability to keep egos-are-us from exploding with the dreaded curse of "ego-combustion." In NY that is a major asset.
The biggest change for the Spankies will be that this "moment" will have passed. A new "moment" will begin and guys like Mo, Pettitte etal may decide this is their "moment" to move on. If most of them go, NY could have a serious 2 or 3 year problem trying to "buy" a new team. Unfortunately, they have done a good job rebuilding their farm system and there are some really good guys there that will be a big help over the next five years.
To me, their BIG advantage has been that their $ has bought them stability, predictability and they have not had to force feed "slightly not yet ready for prime time" guys into the big league team. Whereas we've had to use Rios, Lind, League and McGowan before they were truly ready. Fortunately for us, they are all now (God willing and the river don't rise...) ready for prime time.
Now, if only Posada and A-Rod would come our way, and oh yes, Pettitte would make a very nice 5th starter!
The major criticism of Torre has been his bullpen management where he works with a short bullpen and often burns them out before the end of the season. The Jays will be sorry to lose that aspect of Torre's managing but that had more of an impact on the Yankees playoff performance than the regular season.
To be fair, he doesn't have much to chose from in his bullpen in recent years. Right now, the only reliable guys are Joba and Rivera. Compare now to when they had guys like Nelson, Stanton, Mendoza, Rivera, and Llyod coming from the pen.
I don't see why Torre needs to be paid so much anyway. The Yankees are probably the easiest team to manage in baseball.
scottt, I'd love to hear your rationale for this. I can't imagine anything being further from the truth. Managing isn't just filling out the lineup card -- though when you have multiple million-dollar egos on the bench, that itself can be a problem -- it's managing the local and national media, dealing with ownership, all that stuff. I find it hard to imagine that whoever is next will be as good as Torre at "managing" the New York Post and the Steinbrenner fits and the lineup that HAS to win it all or be considered a failure.
