Batter's Box Interactive Magazine - Porky's II

Jesse Litsch has been recalled and returns to the starting rotation. To make room, John Parrish has been optioned to Syracuse (Parrish still has options?) and Scott Richmond will work out of the bullpen.

Nothing against Parrish, who did a solid job while he was. I thought it was weird having four left-handers in the pen.

Lisch made three starts at Syracuse, going 1-0, 3.60 - it's the 18 Ks and 4 BB in 20 IP that's especially encouraging. So let's hope he's fixed whatever had gone awry.

I haven't heard it yet myself, but apparently Richard Griffin said something really, really stupid on Prime Time sports today? Anyway, I was just listening my own self to Scott Richmond talking about how his mother was crying after his major league debut.

And not because she was sad. Awwww.

Posted by Magpie on Monday, August 11 2008 @ 11:50 PM EDT.

Porky's II - Jesse Litsch is Back! | 57 comments | Create New Account

The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.

The_Game - Tuesday, August 12 2008 @ 12:47 AM EDT (#190495) #

About time. He shouldn't have been demoted in the first place, it wasn't necessary.

Magpie - Tuesday, August 12 2008 @ 01:00 AM EDT (#190496) #

Ah, what the hell. The kid had actually pitched well exactly once in two months. You get to look at other guys, he gets a chance to work on stuff without Major League Pressure. So why not?

The_Game - Tuesday, August 12 2008 @ 01:09 AM EDT (#190497) #

I'm of the opinion that you let the major leaguer figure out what he needs to do at the major league level. Litsch struggled a bit in June and July, but it wasn't anything that he couldn't recover from, especially with those improved peripherals this season. I still can't believe he was demoted so they could see Scott Richmond of all people.

Alex Obal - Tuesday, August 12 2008 @ 01:15 AM EDT (#190498) #

Yeah, the stats on their own aren't enough to convince me that he was pitching any better in Syracuse. The Litsch who had a 6 ERA in June and July could reasonably have been expected to pitch like that in AAA, based on his track record and peripherals, and four starts is nothing anyway.

I'd be much more interested in hearing whether he was throwing more fastballs, and better fastballs. As I understand it, the primary motivation for sending him to AAA was to let him experiment with the sinker, which he wasn't using much in the majors. So I'd be curious to hear a firsthand report on how that went.

Magpie - Tuesday, August 12 2008 @ 02:58 AM EDT (#190500) #

I'm of the opinion that you let the major leaguer figure out what he needs to do at the major league level.

Sure, sometimes. Or maybe the bullpen (although "struggled a bit" is understatement on a fairly epic scale - "sucked desperately" almost every time out comes a little closer to the mark.) I'd also say that, in my mind anyway, Litsch is still in the process of establishing himself as a major leaguer and isn;t quite there yet.

But ultimately, you can only decide these things on a case-by-case basis anyway. I really don't know what was the right thing to do in this case. I can see why you would let him try to work it out in the rotation, and I can see why you'd try what the team did (and if you were actually in a pennant race, you wouldn't have waited almost two months.)

The_Game - Tuesday, August 12 2008 @ 04:04 AM EDT (#190504) #

Well I'd say the only time he "sucked desperately" was in his last 3starts in July. In June, he posted a 5.12 ERA and a 1.33 WHIP. Nothing really surprising from somebody like Litsch, and certainly not terrible.

Magpie - Tuesday, August 12 2008 @ 05:12 AM EDT (#190506) #

Fair enough - taking the hyperbole in the other direction, I was.

Suppose I might get away with "sucked most of the time" in June. But now I'm picking at nits, I think.

The_Game - Tuesday, August 12 2008 @ 06:01 AM EDT (#190508) #

Rotoworld's opinion of the move:

"Blue Jays recalled RHP Jesse Litsch from Triple-A Syracuse.
Litsch should have never been sent down in the first place. He was 8-7 with a 4.46 ERA for the Jays, who bailed on him after three bad outings. He posted a 3.60 ERA at Syracuse, and will start on Thursday against the Tigers. "

Magpie - Tuesday, August 12 2008 @ 06:32 AM EDT (#190509) #

Good for them.

brent - Tuesday, August 12 2008 @ 07:06 AM EDT (#190510) #

http://www.thescore.com/mlb/ the drunk jays fans talk to Wilner. It is definitely worth listening to.

Mike Green - Tuesday, August 12 2008 @ 09:44 AM EDT (#190517) #

I haven't heard it yet myself, but apparently Richard Griffin said something really, really stupid on Prime Time sports today

Is this a teaser? Presuming that there were no propane gas explosion jokes or renditions of Back in the USSR (that Georgia's always on my mi-mi-mi-nd) and that the subject was baseball, how bad could it be?

As for Doc's 130 pitches, it is more the situation that bothers me. 7th Game of the World Series 0-0 after 10 innings and Doc has thrown 120 pitches, looks fine and tells the manager he feels fine and can go one more, then by all means, you go for it. Sure there is some small additional risk, but it is well worth it. This was not. Last year, there were some high pitch count games for McGowan and Burnett late in the year, which I felt put the pitchers at increased risk of injury. It seems to me that this aspect is a shared responsibility of Arnsberg and the managers.

Magpie - Tuesday, August 12 2008 @ 10:23 AM EDT (#190519) #

Matthew heard it, and showed up for last night's Chat fairly amazed. Apparently the crew were denouncing poor Scott Richmond losing out on the dream of a lifetime. I mean the poor guy now has to go to boring old Fenway Park later this week, and may even have to, you know, pitch there and everything. Anyway, it may have been called the most ridiculous promotion in Blue Jays history, and it does seem to have capped by Griffin saying - Matthew said it was a direct quote - "Blow it out your ass, JP."

Hey, don't we all get more outspoken when the team's out of town?

nanook - Tuesday, August 12 2008 @ 10:30 AM EDT (#190520) #

Glad to see Josh finally made it back to the bigs!
I know this is gonna rile a few people's bile, but I've long thought there's not that much difference between the bewitched Josh Towers and the beloved Jesse Litsch.
The major difference, to my eyes, is confidence and movement. Jesse has some and Josh didn't.
I sure hope his two-seamer is on, because he didn't fool many hitters in his most recent starts.
The numbers are hardly worth looking at, given sample-size, but they seem eerily similar to me.
Towers (career) ERA = 4.96, WHIP =1.38, K/9 = 4.80
Litsch (career?) ERA = 4.14, WHIP = 1.35, K/9 = 4.34
By the way, how many games out is too many and when do we jettison Mench and Wilkerson?
If they're integral parts of next year's team, there better be a couple of CY Youngs in the system.

Magpie - Tuesday, August 12 2008 @ 10:35 AM EDT (#190521) #

Although this, which I'm now reading about, is possibly more irritating. To me, anyway. Evidently Griff was giving the GM grief about the Reed Johnson-Shannon Stewart fiasco. Fair enough, the move didn't work out. But when he says "JP was never fond of Reed Johnson" - well, this is taking historical revisionism just a little too far. Next thing you know, they'll be saying Derek Jeter deserves those Gold Gloves, and Charles Manson was just misunderstood.

One of the actual encouraging things about Ricciardi cutting Johnson loose is that it actually gave a hint - just a hint - that he could overcome his own prejudice in favour of those scrappy little gamers and bring in a guy with more actual talent. (Even if the talent, alas, appears not to have arrived with the guy on this occasion.) Reed Johnson is exactly the kind of player Ricciardi's always been just a little too fond of.

Mike Green - Tuesday, August 12 2008 @ 10:37 AM EDT (#190522) #

As long as JP does not assign Richard Griffin to the same table as Keith Law for the "Idiots Club" meeting, things should be just fine...

It's too bad that Scott Richmond does not come from Richmond, B.C.. The Crabtree Association is always looking for members.

Apropos of nothing, I had no idea that Ron Fairly had such a fine career with the Dodgers before his time with the Expos, and in particular his excellent 65 World Series and 66 season. Didn't Billy Joel sing: "he's always an Expo to me"?

Magpie - Tuesday, August 12 2008 @ 10:41 AM EDT (#190523) #

If they're integral parts of next year's team

I wouldn't worry. They're not integral parts of this year's team.

L-Jay - Tuesday, August 12 2008 @ 10:46 AM EDT (#190524) #

But Litsch, at 23, is practically a baby Jay. Wasn't Towers 28 or 29-ish?

Congrats to Jesse Carlson, who finally gets to hand off the Sad Sack of Humiliation to Scott Richmond.

(De-lurking. My kudos for a great community.)

whiterasta80 - Tuesday, August 12 2008 @ 10:53 AM EDT (#190525) #

If Jesse Litsch isn't going to use those 5 years to develop a devastating sinker his youth isn't really a factor in comparing him to Towers.

Magpie - Tuesday, August 12 2008 @ 11:24 AM EDT (#190526) #

Litsch, at 23, is practically a baby Jay. Wasn't Towers 28 or 29-ish?

The Immortal Josh was 24 when he made his debut with the Orioles, 26 when he arrived in Toronto, 28 when he had his One Excellent Season, and 31 when he vanished into the nether reaches of the Rockies' minor league system. Where he remains to this day, still 31.

Anders - Tuesday, August 12 2008 @ 11:37 AM EDT (#190527) #

One of the actual encouraging things about Ricciardi cutting Johnson loose is that it actually gave a hint - just a hint - that he could overcome his own prejudice in favour of those scrappy little gamers and bring in a guy with more actual talent. (Even if the talent, alas, appears not to have arrived with the guy on this occasion.) Reed Johnson is exactly the kind of player Ricciardi's always been just a little too fond of.

I think that that decision speaks to a fondness for proven mediocrity more so than anything else.

The thing about Johnson is that he is a very useful player, if utilized correctly. He hits lefties well, and is a good baserunner and a capable defender. He isn't good enough to be a starting outfielder for a good team, but he is good enough to get 350 at bats and pinch hit/run/defend. Conversely, Shannon Stewart is not a useful player whatsoever. His Major League Skill is that he is below average in every facet of the game at this point in his career. Like Johnson, he's also not good enough to start full time, but unlike Reed he has no appreciable skill set as a bench player. Of course, the correct choice would have been to bring Adam Lind up in the first point...

If anything, the recent demotion of Kevin Mench over Wilkerson (though he was subsequently recalled) is almost exactly the same decision as the one to choose Stewart over Johnson. Wilkerson has been appreciably below average as a hitter this year, against lefties and righties, whereas Mench at least has a skill (theoretically, hitting lefties) that is very useful, especially given the Jays struggles in this area. Given that neither figure to play much in the outfield with Wells, Rios and Lind firmly ensconced, Mench's possible contribution to the team (DH platoon with Stairs and occasional outfield duty) - versus Wilkerson's (uh... he's not good enough to pinch hit for anyone or DH, and we have 3 outfielders that each play more than 90% of the time, plus Mighty Joe), it would seem that Mench could contribute more in a limited role.

There are other concerns, and perhaps nuances that I am missing, but the gist of these two decisions has been to not make good use of flawed players that can excel under certain conditions, and rather to use players who are just good enough to not be useful whatsoever. Also, Reed had better three year splits and ZIPS than Stewart, and Mench has hit better than Wilkerson this year (sample size alert). My apologies for not letting this go. Shannon Stewart has been a less valuable player over the three years heading into this one than Juan Pierre, so I find it somewhat frustrating that people seem to think bringing him in was a good move.

Magpie - Tuesday, August 12 2008 @ 11:53 AM EDT (#190530) #

If teams carried 10 pitchers and 15 position players, like they would in a sane and rational universe - then absolutely. Mench for sure. But as it, I'm just not sure. I still think it's hard nowadays to keep a guy who only does one thing - hit lefties. I'm just not sure there are enough ABs against them to justify spending a third of your functional bench, and pretty well all of your backup OF, on such a narrow thing. As it is, the sample sizes are still so small, that Wilkerson was actually out-hitting Mench against LHP until about a week ago.

Hey, at least David Eckstein is no longer the team's most effective hitter against LHP!

Adam Lind, we who are about to watch other teams in the post-season salute you!

canuckiwi - Tuesday, August 12 2008 @ 01:46 PM EDT (#190541) #

The_Game blogster seems to have his facts slightly skewed with regards to the demotion of Litsch to Triple-A, to work on a few things.

Purcey was brought up as a direct result of that move by JP, not Richmond. It was the unfortunate nocturnal injury that was absorbed by Brian Tallet's pinky toe, which prompted the lateral move of "Parrish to the Pen," which opened a door in the starting rotation for Richmond, "of all people!!!"

I don't understand the "of all people" quote when referring to Richmond. He's done an adequate job in three starts, walking only one, while getting a respectable number of strikeouts and handcuffing some of the better hitters in the league, causing one to break his bat over his knee in frustration, after whiffing for a 3rd straight time.

If the "hitting" version of the Jays had turned up, and scored 4 or 5 runs for him during those starts, instead if the "whiffing" version, he'd be 3-0 instead of 0-2, and I don't think we'd be having this conversation.

Mike Green - Tuesday, August 12 2008 @ 01:47 PM EDT (#190542) #

Mench not only hits lefties, but is a perfectly acceptable corner outfielder. Best of all, if you give him 250 at-bats, mostly against lefties, he'll hit 10 homers (for his career 845 PAs against lefties, 40 homers) and be second on the team in that category!

Anders - Tuesday, August 12 2008 @ 02:20 PM EDT (#190544) #

I'm not quite sure in what reality Kelly Shoppach qualifies as one of the "better hitters in the league"...

Additionally, I think that the posters on this board are smart enough to realize that Richmond being 0-2 or 3-0 is not really the best measure of his performance. Richmond has been adequate in his three starts, no more, no less.

Alex Obal - Tuesday, August 12 2008 @ 02:52 PM EDT (#190547) #

I'm not quite sure in what reality Kelly Shoppach qualifies as one of the "better hitters in the league"...

Hey, he's still hitting .271./.342/.513 despite his Custian strikeout rate... It's probably a reality where people still challenge him inside. On Saturday and Sunday, every righty he saw just pounded him with basically all cutters and curveballs and sliders away. He basically swung through every last one of them. When he faced Camp late Sunday it was the biggest guaranteed strikeout ever. He went 0-8 with 7 strikeouts and 1 walk against Doc, League, Richmond and Camp, and the walk was against League who isn't exactly known for his breaking stuff. I almost want to watch bits and pieces of Cleveland's game tonight just to laugh at him some more, or see if he figures it out. Except he's facing Garrett Olson. Maybe tomorrow.

Alex Obal - Tuesday, August 12 2008 @ 03:04 PM EDT (#190550) #

I still think it's hard nowadays to keep a guy who only does one thing - hit lefties. I'm just not sure there are enough ABs against them to justify spending a third of your functional bench, and pretty well all of your backup OF.

That's one way of looking at it. But where are Brad Wilkerson's at-bats going to come from, if you're the manager, Rolen is still active and Mench is in AAA?

John Northey - Tuesday, August 12 2008 @ 03:52 PM EDT (#190553) #

Regardless of Wilkerson vs Mench this year, 2009's roster will be a challenge.

CA: Barajas and Diaz most likely
1B: Overbay
2B: Hill if healthy, Inglett/Scutaro if not
SS: McDonald/Scutaro?
3B: Rolen
LF: Lind
CF: Wells
RF: Rios
DH: Stairs (signed for 2009 already as is McDonald)

That leaves just 1 slot (if Hill is healthy and a 12 man staff continues to be the norm). If the Jays find a solid everyday shortstop (free agency or trade for minor leaguers) then there are no slots left. I'd think a RH slugger to share DH duties with Stairs would be the priority thus Mench. However, if you want an outfielder who can play a bit of defense then Wilkerson is tempting (ugh).

I suspect Cito will want to either have Mench or clear out Stairs and get a solid DH in (such as Snider). We could see Snider in the majors and Stairs as the bench guy with Inglett/Diaz/McDonald (Scutaro the regular SS). There was talk by JP about Hill going back to SS iirc due to Inglett doing well and Campbell in AA and the general ease of finding a 2B vs a SS.

The rotation and pen, if healthy, is a real mess though, especially if AJ stays.
Rotation: Halladay/AJ/Marcum/McGowan/Litsch with holdovers Purcey/Parrish/Richmond/Wolfe/Janssen and rookie Brett Cecil and the Romero's in the mix.
Bullpen: Ryan/Downs/Carlson/Tallet are 100% locks I'd think with Frasor/CampLeague all likely to make it too. Mix in the losers in the rotation battle and who knows from the minor leagues and scrap piles that JP seems to find someone from each year and you've got a log jam again.

Not a bad situation for pitching, having a log jam in both the rotation and bullpen. The lineup though has lots of mediocre guys with lots of guys on the wrong side of 30.

subculture - Tuesday, August 12 2008 @ 04:28 PM EDT (#190557) #

I'm thinking sign O-DOG! For 2009 move Hill to SS, Inglett is your utility IF, Johny Mac is the backup. Snider hopefully joins halfway thru the season as the 4th OF/DH..

I LIKE that lineup... though we can really use ONE BIG SCARY BAT, at either 1b, 3b or OF/DH...

Anders - Tuesday, August 12 2008 @ 04:38 PM EDT (#190558) #

Hey, he's still hitting .271./.342/.513 despite his Custian strikeout rate...

Alas, would that it were such that Shoppach could strike some Faustian bargain and become more Custian. His K% edges Cust when one goes to the third decimal place. His career BB% of 7%, on the other hand, is not so close to Cust's 19%. Perhaps he should consider a career instead as a thespian...

Addendum: Shoppach's been helped, no doubt, by his .372 average on balls in play and 18.5% HR/FB rate.

Thomas - Tuesday, August 12 2008 @ 04:40 PM EDT (#190559) #

There are other concerns, and perhaps nuances that I am missing, but the gist of these two decisions has been to not make good use of flawed players that can excel under certain conditions, and rather to use players who are just good enough to not be useful whatsoever. Also, Reed had better three year splits and ZIPS than Stewart, and Mench has hit better than Wilkerson this year (sample size alert). My apologies for not letting this go. Shannon Stewart has been a less valuable player over the three years heading into this one than Juan Pierre, so I find it somewhat frustrating that people seem to think bringing him in was a good move.

Amen, Anders. Some of us were saying this since the very day the transaction took place. I agree with Magpie that JP didn't always have it in for Stewart, but saying that cutting Johnson was a good move because JP was alwaysfond of that sort of player takes it too far in the other direction.

Matthew E - Tuesday, August 12 2008 @ 04:48 PM EDT (#190560) #

I LIKE that lineup... though we can really use ONE BIG SCARY BAT

Or two. Or three. Four ought to be enough.

Mike Green - Tuesday, August 12 2008 @ 05:11 PM EDT (#190561) #

Green's dream for 2009. AJ walks, and the Blue Jays take his dollars and a few extra and invest them in Manny Ramirez on a 2 year contract (hey, it's a dream). They move Aaron Hill to shortstop, he's healthy and he and Scott Campbell spend the winter under the wing of Brian Butterfield. The 2009 starting lineup looks like this:

Campbell   2B
Rios            CF
Overbay      1B
Ramirez    DH
Lind             LF
Wells           RF
Rolen        3B
Barajas C
Hill    SS

Your rotation is Halladay, Marcum, Litsch, Purcey and Wolfe to start the season with Cecil, McGowan and Ricky Romero as #s6, 7 and 8. Your bullpen is Ryan, Downs, Frasor, League, Tallet/Carlson (the other traded). Cecil comes up early in the season and enters the bullpen and works in tandem with Wolfe in the 5 slot of the rotation.

Your bench is Zaun, Scutaro, Inglett, Stairs and Mench (McDonald is traded). Inglett gets 30 starts a year at third against RHP. Scutaro gets 30 starts at second and 20 at short. Zaun is signed to a 1 year contract. Snider spends 2009 in triple A.

If you're going to dream, go large...

Ozzieball - Tuesday, August 12 2008 @ 05:48 PM EDT (#190563) #

If you're going to dream, go large...

Your 'large' dream involves Litsch, Purcey, and Wolfe in the rotation at the same time?

Alex Obal - Tuesday, August 12 2008 @ 06:06 PM EDT (#190564) #

It's to lull 'em into a false sense of security. Or something. Seriously, I don't think Mike's master plan involves Wolfe lasting more than two months in the rotation, unless McGowan's recovery takes longer than expected.

I'd swap McDonald for Scutaro myself, and maybe have Richmond a little higher in the pecking order of starters, but otherwise I'd sign off on that game plan.

Jdog - Tuesday, August 12 2008 @ 06:23 PM EDT (#190565) #

Bill Hall could sure come in handy for the bluejays next year. Not sure what the Brewers would want for the guy though. But having a player who can start at 3B when Rolen hits the DL would be nice, and when Rolen is not on the DL, Hall could pick up bats against LH's either as DH or OF and could even play SS for you.

ayjackson - Tuesday, August 12 2008 @ 08:02 PM EDT (#190568) #

I'm with Alex here. If Hill's the gameplan at short and Campbell at 2B (two virgin commodoties defensively), then I'd like the fallback to be McDonald and Hill in the middle. Though Scoots is signed and would need a home, hopefully not at the expense of mighty Joe.

GregJP - Tuesday, August 12 2008 @ 08:26 PM EDT (#190569) #

John Brattain pretty well nails it.

http://drunkjaysfans.blogspot.com/2008/08/special-guest-post-dare-to-be-stupid.html

Mike Green - Tuesday, August 12 2008 @ 08:27 PM EDT (#190570) #

My thinking was that I wouldn't want Hill moving around and I'd rather have Scutaro than McDonald at second base when Campbell sits against a tough lefty.

As for the rotation, what I'd really like to see is a 4 day rotation with Halladay, Marcum/Downs, Litsch/Purcey, Wolfe(McGowan)/Cecil. Halladay goes 6 innings maximum; the others go 3-5. This aint happening.

scottt - Tuesday, August 12 2008 @ 08:32 PM EDT (#190571) #

Zaun needs to go. He'll be 38 next year. I figure his numbers will plummet.

Overbay shouldn't start against lefties. Do not need a defensive first baseman that badly.

4th outfield is a though call. Lind's splits are actually very good. Stairs, I guess.
Snider will eventually take over and alternate in the DH spot.

Until that happens, they need a real DH. That's going to be hard to find. Free agents love long contracts.

Worse case scenario, McDonald/Stairs/Rolen are regulars and it's a completely wasted year.

subculture - Wednesday, August 13 2008 @ 10:26 AM EDT (#190581) #

Agree with points 'scottt'' made, except that...

I have no problem with a regularly playing, HEALTHY Rolen, and I think the Jays need this badly. If we ALL PRAY nightly for his shoulder.... and Hill's head.

I'm not sold on Mench or Wilkerson, and think there have to be better, or at least younger, improving just-as-good options in AAA, or FA's that can platoon for next year.

Zaun has become replaceable with Barajas... he figured this out faster than anyone else. Overbay is NOT a 3-hole hitter IMO... ideally no higher than 6th... behind Lind for sure. Stairs could be useful in a limited role like last year, but too much playing time this year. I'd rather have Hinske!

HOW ABOUT O-DOG? Nobody else feel he was meant to be a jay?

Mike Green - Wednesday, August 13 2008 @ 10:44 AM EDT (#190582) #

You need 2 catchers. None of the minor leaguers are in my view ready. Zaun will be 38 next year, but is in good shape and has very low mileage on him (935 games caught). Catchers have a completely different aging curve than other players. This year, Zaun has hit remarkably well for his short playing time- 5 homers, 32 walks and 24 strikeouts in 227 PAs is very good. His BABIP of .245 is 10-15 points off normal for a 37 year-old catcher with some pop; I would actually expect a small improvement from him in 2009.

Chuck - Wednesday, August 13 2008 @ 11:18 AM EDT (#190586) #

I would be happy with a Zaun/Barajas platoon for one more year. But, a proper job-sharing platoon, not the current arrangement. If Gaston is re-signed for 2009 I can't see Zaun wanting to return. There are a lot of teams hurting at backstop and Zaun should still be able to be a halftime starter somewhere. He may not even have to leave the division.

As for our third baseman, you are likelier to see a unicorn than a healthy Scott Rolen. He was last healthy in 2006, recovering from a crummy 2005. He has not replicated his 2006 season in 2008 and has only partially recovered from a crummy 2007. He was an amazing and underrated player in his prime, but a body can only take so much abuse. I fear that the Rolen we see now is as good as it's going to get. I can't imagine that there are any more dramatic recoveries in him. That's not a shot at his character, simply a commentary on a shoulder that has seen as much action as Bobby Orr's knees.

It's interesting to note that Rolen's 2008 is unprecedented in his career. Despite being a boolean hitter, either really good (9 times) or really bad (2 times), his OPS+ is currently at 100, the first time he's been at middleground. BP had him forecast for a 758 OPS and he's actually at 750.

Mike Green - Wednesday, August 13 2008 @ 11:52 AM EDT (#190590) #

CJF and I had a discussion about the Rolen projections at the outset of the season. Rolen still might fall under .720 OPS for the season, but right now he's where I thought that he would be.

nanook - Wednesday, August 13 2008 @ 12:03 PM EDT (#190591) #

Magpie: Sorry, got busy, lost the thread, but I disagree with the contention Wilkerson,/Mench aren't integral parts of this year's team.
Maybe integral was too strong an adjective but, between them they have similar, or more, at bats than our starting second baseman (Hill) starting third baseman (Rolen) starting shortstop (Eckstein) and either of the catchers.
You can look at their nearly 300 at bats and compare them with far too many other Jays this season.
Injuries occur, but what makes us think next year will be injury free and our starting nine will all get 600 ABs.
It pains me to say it, I like virtually everyone on this team, but currently constructed Cito should be manager of the yeat for getting these guys above .500

Chuck - Wednesday, August 13 2008 @ 12:35 PM EDT (#190593) #

You can look at their nearly 300 at bats and compare them with far too many other Jays this season.
Injuries occur, but what makes us think next year will be injury free and our starting nine will all get 600 ABs.

It should be noted that Wilkerson and Mench's ABs aren't entirely the result of injury. Wilkerson benefited from Lind being trapped in AAA and Mench's role is largely the byproduct of Thomas getting released, necessitating a platoon-mate for Stairs at DH.

Lind will start in LF next season. One would think that the team will find a new fulltime DH. Hill's return should result in Inglett assuming the 4th OF's role. I don't see either of Wilkerson or Mench being on the team next season.

92-93 - Wednesday, August 13 2008 @ 01:59 PM EDT (#190595) #

"Rolen still might fall under .720 OPS for the season, but right now he's where I thought that he would be."

I read that topic, and I'd have to think ChicagoJaysFan was more correct on this one than you were. CJF had a hard time seeing the middle ground, thinking it was all or bust for Rolen. Overall he might have a .750 OPS, but he hasn't been a .750 hitter all year. Through June 30th, he was still hitting .288/.377/.474 (.851), which is what CJF thought he would be if he was healthy. Over the next 5 weeks (presumably hurt) he went .172/.291/.242 (.533). So I think it was completely fair to assume that Rolen was either going to be solid or terrible, and the fact that right now his OPS stands at .750 does a horrible job in telling you the type of hitter he has been this year. You thought he was capable of producing at a mediocre clip when healthy ; can't say at all that this season has helped validate that opinion.

Mike Green - Wednesday, August 13 2008 @ 02:11 PM EDT (#190598) #

Every player goes through up and down stretches in a year, often due to minor injuries. My point was that the seasonal projection for Rolen ought to have been average.

I am often wrong, but on that one, not so far.

scottt - Wednesday, August 13 2008 @ 07:38 PM EDT (#190624) #

You need 2 catchers.

Or 3, the Angels did this not too long ago. A right handed catcher could start at 1B against lefties. Probably too complicated for Cito, though.

None of the minor leaguers are in my view ready.

Thigpen and Diaz are 25. Many of the top catchers are 24 or 25: McCann, Mauer, Soto, Martin, Navarro. When will they be ready if not next year?

Zaun will be 38 next year, but is in good shape and has very low mileage on him (935 games caught). Catchers have a completely different aging curve than other players.

Isn't Zaun the oldest catcher in the majors? He's older than Posada, Podge and Varitek. He's seriously overdue to fall off a cliff.

With his shift to a backup role, the only way Zaun returns is if no other team is interested and that says something.

If Thigpen and Diaz are not good enough to backup at age 26, the Jays will have to let release them to make room on the 40 roster.
That seems like a complete loss to me.

Chuck - Wednesday, August 13 2008 @ 09:45 PM EDT (#190627) #

Thigpen and Diaz are 25. Many of the top catchers are 24 or 25: McCann, Mauer, Soto, Martin, Navarro. When will they be ready if not next year?

Maybe never?

That the top notch catchers in the game today are 24 or 25 is entirely irrelevant when considering whether Thigpen and Diaz are ready. Yes, if they were truly developing into major league caliber players they should be ready by now. But they're not. And may never.

Isn't Zaun the oldest catcher in the majors? He's older than Posada, Podge and Varitek. He's seriously overdue to fall off a cliff.

Obviously Zaun's age is a huge concern, but look at how little he has caught during his career. While the other fellows were wearing out their knees and backs and shoulders, Zaun has spent a great deal of his career wearing out his backside at the end of the bench.

Thomas - Wednesday, August 13 2008 @ 10:40 PM EDT (#190628) #

Probably too complicated for Cito, though.

Why do people insist on saying stupid things like this?

scottt - Wednesday, August 13 2008 @ 11:25 PM EDT (#190630) #

For the same reason Doc threw 130 pitches last Saturday.

China fan - Thursday, August 14 2008 @ 05:40 AM EDT (#190636) #

It's a little unfair and premature to say that Diaz might "never" be ready for the majors. He's not ready now, but that doesn't prove that he might "never" be ready. He's not ready now because of a serious injury that he suffered this year. He's still recovering from that. Until the injury, it looked like he would have a very good chance of being at least the back-up catcher in 2009. The Jays clearly thought very highly of the guy, elevating him to the majors for a game already once this year. Unless the injury is somehow a career-altering injury, he'll get another shot next year. To put Diaz into the Thigpen category is very misleading. Thigpen has been given lots of chances, both in the majors and in Syracuse, and he's failed those chances. Diaz hasn't even had a full season at Syracuse yet, because of his youth and his injury. It's much too early to write him off.

scottt - Thursday, August 14 2008 @ 06:00 AM EDT (#190637) #

Thigpen could become an utility player who can play catcher. That gives you the ability to DH the real backup catcher. Maybe a bit of a stretch...
The Jays have too many utility infielders at the moment anyway.

When I say "too complicated" I don't mean that as an insult. I think Cito likes to keep things simple. Nothing stupid about that.

Thomas - Thursday, August 14 2008 @ 06:04 AM EDT (#190638) #

Well, the implication of your statement was that Cito doesn't understand how to work a platoon when the evidence from the season is to the contrary.

Chuck - Thursday, August 14 2008 @ 07:27 AM EDT (#190639) #

Diaz hasn't even had a full season at Syracuse yet, because of his youth and his injury. It's much too early to write him off.

Who is writing him off? Might never be ready is different than will never be ready. Most minor leaguers might never be ready. That's just a fact of life.

Guillermo Quiroz posted a 282/360/518 line in AA as a 21-year old. Sure thing, right? Injuries then took a toll and stunted his progress. He finally cracked the majors this year as a 26-year old backup on the Orioles. His 204/274/291 line means he may not be in the majors as a 27-year old.

AWeb - Thursday, August 14 2008 @ 07:31 AM EDT (#190640) #

If your DH is the backup catcher, then you have failed to find a decent DH. Why would any team want to find extra hitting time for one of the worst hitting positions in the majors? Tampa seems to have the best hitting backup catcher in Shawn Riggans, and he's been no better than Stairs this year. As nice as it would be to dream about the flexibility of having an extra good hitter who can also catch, it's not going to happen. Neither Barajas and Zaun would be an acceptable DH to me...let's dream "big" and hope for a guy who could manage a .350/.450 line when his only job is to hit. That's more than anyone on the team can manage now, of course, excepting Lind, but there are 125 guys with 100 PAs this year with an .800 OPS.

Sidebar: it's depressing looking through the "qualified" leaderboards that exclude Lind. Overbay is the team OPS leader, and is hovering around the top 100 in MLB. Rios and his 50 RBIs are tied for 110th. Stairs and the 11 HR are tied for 117th. Yeesh.

Magpie - Thursday, August 14 2008 @ 07:27 PM EDT (#190685) #

Why do people insist on saying stupid things like this?

Why does a dog lick...

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