Roy Halladay, recently named the American League's starting pitcher in the All-Star Game tomorrow, shared his thoughts recently on the possibility of being traded.
Wow, for Doc to say 50-50 tells me there's actually a very good probability that a trade will happen. And this all-star game start suddenly takes on a lot more significance, almost a showcase for the league. You can bet other players at the game will be at least jokingly pushing him towards their contending teams, and fan bases/media in different cities are going to be pushing their teams harder to get Halladay.
I'd be very said to see him get traded (and would hope he'd return to end his career here), but timing in life is everything, and the timing might be favourable to the Jays making a very good deal for Halladay this month.
If you could trade him AND Wells, and get back 2 high-ceiling prospects, plus another 2 decent prospects, I'd be pretty satisified. You could do a lot with the salaries you'd save.
The thing that really annoys me is that the money we'd save on trading Wells and Doc would probably NOT be put back into FA signings. I had a little premonition of the Expos last ten years being the fate of the Jays. Stuck in the most difficult division in baseball with cash-strapped owners. I was an Expos fan for those years and it was ugly.
I voted to trade Doc in the BB poll but I think that came from the fear that we might lose him for nothing. I think you basically offer him an extension, if he declines, you trade him. But you don't trade him without at least telling him that your first choice would be to keep him.
I voted to trade Doc in the BB poll but I think that came from the fear that we might lose him for nothing. I think you basically offer him an extension, if he declines, you trade him. But you don't trade him without at least telling him that your first choice would be to keep him.
My regard for Mr. Maddon just went up a lot. Hat tip in your general direction sir.
On the trade front, it really seems to me this comes down to whether or not the team thinks it has a shot at contention in 2010, a real solid 90+ win shot, or not. If so, then you keep doc and you pay the price to ramp up a bit, even if you lose money a couple of years to do it. Maybe he can agree to a short extension of a couple of years which saves him time to still turn around and go to a winner if it doesn't come together.
But if not, as much as I hate to say it (because seeing either Doc or Rolen go - let alone together - will kill my soul) - if they don't think that window is open, they need to do one thing first:
#1 Decide if JP is going to be in charge of yet another rebuild - I can't see how he possibly could be but they need to decide. If so, carry on with the rest of this list, but if not, they need to (IMO) decide on laCava to take over (I despise the idea of bringing in someone who would have to learn the system) and be sure that whatever deals are made he is down with (even if that's a back room conversation)....or else go ahead and ditch JP and replace him NOW which would be pretty rxtreme from a typically overly conservative organization;
#2 Trade every veteran contract you can get a good return on - Doc, Tallet, Frasor, Downs, Rolen, Overbay, Barajas, and Rios. And see if it's possible to give Wells away, even if you have to eat a marginal amount of his big money years (say $6 million or so). Make sure you get a 3B prospect in the deals or else be ready to move Hill to 3B next year. Also get a young SS if possible and a decent CF prospect in the high minors (assuming you ditch Wells).
#3 call up Snider, install League as closer and see how he does, ditch Delucci and Millar call up Ruiz and, I dunno, Coats? promote Dopirak (which is probably going to happen anyway) to AAA with an eye towards giving him a look in September; play Lind at 1B and put up with the rust on defense (and make allowances when evaluating the pitchers)
That would leave you in pretty bad shape for the rest of 2009 and for a year or two to come depending on what you got back and how your prospects preformed. Probably a last place team for a few years.
I don't like it - I think it's a bad idea, but if they are going to claim they can't make money and want to run a budget team then they might as well commit to it and do it "whole hog" and quit trying to walk a tightrope.
Now, having digressed to that extent - Alex A gives my soul comfort in his comments here:
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20090712&content_id=5849098&vkey=news_tor&fext=.jsp&c_id=tor&partnerId=rss_tor
In which he says they are not pushing to deal Doc and that they fully intend to hold on to Rolen through the end of his contract....so maybe things are not as bleak as I fear...I certainly intend to cling to any reed of hope. it pisses me off that as little as 3 weeks ago there was so much optimisim and now thanks to a horrible inexcusably bad run of games it's like the roof has caved in.
On the trade front, it really seems to me this comes down to whether or not the team thinks it has a shot at contention in 2010, a real solid 90+ win shot, or not. If so, then you keep doc and you pay the price to ramp up a bit, even if you lose money a couple of years to do it. Maybe he can agree to a short extension of a couple of years which saves him time to still turn around and go to a winner if it doesn't come together.
But if not, as much as I hate to say it (because seeing either Doc or Rolen go - let alone together - will kill my soul) - if they don't think that window is open, they need to do one thing first:
#1 Decide if JP is going to be in charge of yet another rebuild - I can't see how he possibly could be but they need to decide. If so, carry on with the rest of this list, but if not, they need to (IMO) decide on laCava to take over (I despise the idea of bringing in someone who would have to learn the system) and be sure that whatever deals are made he is down with (even if that's a back room conversation)....or else go ahead and ditch JP and replace him NOW which would be pretty rxtreme from a typically overly conservative organization;
#2 Trade every veteran contract you can get a good return on - Doc, Tallet, Frasor, Downs, Rolen, Overbay, Barajas, and Rios. And see if it's possible to give Wells away, even if you have to eat a marginal amount of his big money years (say $6 million or so). Make sure you get a 3B prospect in the deals or else be ready to move Hill to 3B next year. Also get a young SS if possible and a decent CF prospect in the high minors (assuming you ditch Wells).
#3 call up Snider, install League as closer and see how he does, ditch Delucci and Millar call up Ruiz and, I dunno, Coats? promote Dopirak (which is probably going to happen anyway) to AAA with an eye towards giving him a look in September; play Lind at 1B and put up with the rust on defense (and make allowances when evaluating the pitchers)
That would leave you in pretty bad shape for the rest of 2009 and for a year or two to come depending on what you got back and how your prospects preformed. Probably a last place team for a few years.
I don't like it - I think it's a bad idea, but if they are going to claim they can't make money and want to run a budget team then they might as well commit to it and do it "whole hog" and quit trying to walk a tightrope.
Now, having digressed to that extent - Alex A gives my soul comfort in his comments here:
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20090712&content_id=5849098&vkey=news_tor&fext=.jsp&c_id=tor&partnerId=rss_tor
In which he says they are not pushing to deal Doc and that they fully intend to hold on to Rolen through the end of his contract....so maybe things are not as bleak as I fear...I certainly intend to cling to any reed of hope. it pisses me off that as little as 3 weeks ago there was so much optimisim and now thanks to a horrible inexcusably bad run of games it's like the roof has caved in.
If you could trade him AND Wells, and get back 2 high-ceiling
prospects, plus another 2 decent prospects, I'd be pretty satisified.
Don't hold your breathe on that one.
Don't hold your breathe on that one.
It's not just "don't hold your breath on that one" - IF you package Doc and Wells, FIRST THING is no one would take it, and second the VERY BEST you'd get would be Wells and Doc to the Yanks (only the Yanks and Sox have the money) for a bucket of used balls - WHY? - Vernon gets, NOTE I don't say "earns" - 12.5 million in 2010, 23 million in 2011, 21 million in 2012, 21 million in 2013 and 21 million in 2014. (He can "opt out" after 2011- LIKE SURE he'd be that stupid) He ALSO has a FULL no trade contract. Vernon will be our love child until October of 2014 - learn to love him - love is so much easier on the soul than hate. PERSONALLY - I like Vernon - just not at 20+ million per year.
Back to Doc: a few things to remember:
ONE) Whoever gets him gets him for TWO pennant RUNS and in 2010 he's relatively inexpensive at 15.75 million - EVEN IF - they can't resign him. TWO shots at a WS is BIG.
TWO) IF we don't trade him WE get him for a WS run in 2010 - AND - we get a FIRST DRAFT choice and a SUPPLEMENTAL FIRST DRAFT choice for him in June of 2011.
THREE) That means WE have to get at least the equivalent of TWO FIRST DRAFT CHOICES for it to make "baseball" sence - AND - that's the ABSOLUTE minimum price. IF more than one club really wants him, to give their team that extra shot at glory, we should get TWO 1st round types + one or two other useful pieces.
FOUR) The ONLY exception to POINT THREE above is IF we could get a guy like Clayton Kershaw from the Dodgers who is AN ACKNOWLEDGED PRODUCING UBBER PROSPECT - AND - we could control him until the end of the 2015 season. - For a guy like that I'd do a straight swap.
FIVE) Before I trade Roy - I'd try REAL hard to resign Scutaro - IF we don't resign him JMac's got a full time job I don't think even he wants - I know for sure I don't want JMac at SS full time. IF we can resign Scoots THEN we can wait for either Pastornicky or Jackson to be ready - at this point I'M POSITIVE at least one of these guys is the real thing. IF we can't resign Scoots then WE WILL NEED to consider a package that includes a major league ready SS.
SIX) Do you FIND CAPS as ANNOYING as I do?
Back to Doc: a few things to remember:
ONE) Whoever gets him gets him for TWO pennant RUNS and in 2010 he's relatively inexpensive at 15.75 million - EVEN IF - they can't resign him. TWO shots at a WS is BIG.
TWO) IF we don't trade him WE get him for a WS run in 2010 - AND - we get a FIRST DRAFT choice and a SUPPLEMENTAL FIRST DRAFT choice for him in June of 2011.
THREE) That means WE have to get at least the equivalent of TWO FIRST DRAFT CHOICES for it to make "baseball" sence - AND - that's the ABSOLUTE minimum price. IF more than one club really wants him, to give their team that extra shot at glory, we should get TWO 1st round types + one or two other useful pieces.
FOUR) The ONLY exception to POINT THREE above is IF we could get a guy like Clayton Kershaw from the Dodgers who is AN ACKNOWLEDGED PRODUCING UBBER PROSPECT - AND - we could control him until the end of the 2015 season. - For a guy like that I'd do a straight swap.
FIVE) Before I trade Roy - I'd try REAL hard to resign Scutaro - IF we don't resign him JMac's got a full time job I don't think even he wants - I know for sure I don't want JMac at SS full time. IF we can resign Scoots THEN we can wait for either Pastornicky or Jackson to be ready - at this point I'M POSITIVE at least one of these guys is the real thing. IF we can't resign Scoots then WE WILL NEED to consider a package that includes a major league ready SS.
SIX) Do you FIND CAPS as ANNOYING as I do?
There is a pit growing in my stomach every time I hear these trade rumours; it may be beneficial for the Jays in the long run, but my heart doesn't believe it. The only way that a Doc trade works out is we receive a difference maker in return as well as another good young player or two, as well as using the saved money to sign that young South American shortstop Santos [Sanos?] that everyone is raving about.
On an off topic and irrelevant note, I am home from work today and am presently watching Best Damn Sports Show Period baseball edition where the host, Harold Reynolds, Ken Rosenthal, and Rollie Fingers are choosing their all-time team from a pre-picked pool of 4 players at each position. Some "ugh," but also some good points....more "ugh" than good stuff though.
A quick rundown:
3B: Schmidt/B. Robinson/Brett/Boggs
They all chose Schmidt as is right, but no one mentioned the absence of Eddie Mathews, even when asked if the list overlooked anyone.
2B: Morgan/Alomar/Sandberg/J. Robinson
I believe that everyone chose Morgan, which is a very good choice. However, Eddie Collins and Rogers Hornsby weren't even mentioned, nor were Lajoie and Gehringer.
SS: Ripken/A. Rodriguez/Ozzie/Banks
Every one chose Ripken and only Rosenthal mentioned Wagner was missing...and still didn't pick him. No Arky Vaughan? Banks being included? Ugh.
1B: Gehrig/Foxx/Murray/Palmeiro
Wait, what? They all chose Gehrig, but what were they thinking with the last two selections, bypassing McGwire, Mize, McCovey, Greenberg, Thomas, Bagwell....
LF: Bonds/Williams/Musial/Rickey
Great list. They all chose Williams. I'm impressed they actually split up the outfield into actual positions, nice call.
CF: Mays/Mantle/Griffey/Dimaggio
Hmmm, good list, but needs Cobb and Speaker on the list over the last two. Mays was the choice.
RF: Aaron/Ruth/Robinson/R. Jackson
Good call on oft overlooked Robinson, bad choice on Jackson over Ott and Clemente
SP: Clemens/Koufax/Seaver/Maddux
3-1 for Koufax over Maddux. Impossible to narrow down to four choices, but is made easier as they out of hand dismissed dead ball pitchers because "it was a different game." Debatable, but at least they acknowledge it. Still missing Grove and R. Johnson; Reynolds is infatuated with Bob Gibson and says he is the best ever. Ugh. Rollie thinks Gaylord Perry should be in the discussion...really, Rollie?
RP: Eck/Goose/Rivera/Fingers
Good list. Consensus was Miriano.
C: Bench/Berra/Piazza/I. Rodriguez
They choose Bench. Missing original Pudge, Dickey, Cochrane.
One massive thing is that there is no mention of the Negro Leagues at any point of the show, which leaves out Gibson, Charleston, Paige, etc.
I think I may be able to choose a better all-time team without using any players who were even nominated...
C- Josh Gibson
1B-Johnny Mize [narrowly over 19th century Cap Anson]
2B-Rogers Hornsby
3B-Eddie Mathews
SS-Honus Wagner
RF- Mel Ott
CF- Ty Cobb
LF- Tim Raines [over Delahanty and Yaz]
SP-Lefty Grove
RP-Hoyt Wilhelm
Better infield and pitcher, worse outfield...
On an off topic and irrelevant note, I am home from work today and am presently watching Best Damn Sports Show Period baseball edition where the host, Harold Reynolds, Ken Rosenthal, and Rollie Fingers are choosing their all-time team from a pre-picked pool of 4 players at each position. Some "ugh," but also some good points....more "ugh" than good stuff though.
A quick rundown:
3B: Schmidt/B. Robinson/Brett/Boggs
They all chose Schmidt as is right, but no one mentioned the absence of Eddie Mathews, even when asked if the list overlooked anyone.
2B: Morgan/Alomar/Sandberg/J. Robinson
I believe that everyone chose Morgan, which is a very good choice. However, Eddie Collins and Rogers Hornsby weren't even mentioned, nor were Lajoie and Gehringer.
SS: Ripken/A. Rodriguez/Ozzie/Banks
Every one chose Ripken and only Rosenthal mentioned Wagner was missing...and still didn't pick him. No Arky Vaughan? Banks being included? Ugh.
1B: Gehrig/Foxx/Murray/Palmeiro
Wait, what? They all chose Gehrig, but what were they thinking with the last two selections, bypassing McGwire, Mize, McCovey, Greenberg, Thomas, Bagwell....
LF: Bonds/Williams/Musial/Rickey
Great list. They all chose Williams. I'm impressed they actually split up the outfield into actual positions, nice call.
CF: Mays/Mantle/Griffey/Dimaggio
Hmmm, good list, but needs Cobb and Speaker on the list over the last two. Mays was the choice.
RF: Aaron/Ruth/Robinson/R. Jackson
Good call on oft overlooked Robinson, bad choice on Jackson over Ott and Clemente
SP: Clemens/Koufax/Seaver/Maddux
3-1 for Koufax over Maddux. Impossible to narrow down to four choices, but is made easier as they out of hand dismissed dead ball pitchers because "it was a different game." Debatable, but at least they acknowledge it. Still missing Grove and R. Johnson; Reynolds is infatuated with Bob Gibson and says he is the best ever. Ugh. Rollie thinks Gaylord Perry should be in the discussion...really, Rollie?
RP: Eck/Goose/Rivera/Fingers
Good list. Consensus was Miriano.
C: Bench/Berra/Piazza/I. Rodriguez
They choose Bench. Missing original Pudge, Dickey, Cochrane.
One massive thing is that there is no mention of the Negro Leagues at any point of the show, which leaves out Gibson, Charleston, Paige, etc.
I think I may be able to choose a better all-time team without using any players who were even nominated...
C- Josh Gibson
1B-Johnny Mize [narrowly over 19th century Cap Anson]
2B-Rogers Hornsby
3B-Eddie Mathews
SS-Honus Wagner
RF- Mel Ott
CF- Ty Cobb
LF- Tim Raines [over Delahanty and Yaz]
SP-Lefty Grove
RP-Hoyt Wilhelm
Better infield and pitcher, worse outfield...
someone who has the bill james historical abstract or whatever with the win shares introduction should mention the ws totals and list positions. not that that would be the ultimate source, but for interest's sake.
there shouldn't be too many players that would have different #s from the book
to be honest im suprised biggio wasn't listed ahead of alomar.. what with the 3000 hits and all.
there shouldn't be too many players that would have different #s from the book
to be honest im suprised biggio wasn't listed ahead of alomar.. what with the 3000 hits and all.
to be honest im suprised biggio wasn't listed ahead of alomar.. what with the 3000 hits and all.
I think it was filmed a bit before Biggio broke that milestone.
I think it was filmed a bit before Biggio broke that milestone.
Thank goodness for the All-Star break. This team needs a few days off to get itself together before it ends up in last place.
As bad (and unlucky) as they've been playing lately... if you would have told me before the season started that the Jays would have a similar record to teams like the Cubs, Mets, Twins and Marlins, I would have taken that. To expect our young starters to be consistent was unrealistic - we knew they would have peaks and valleys, even before the additional injuries.
Now what we need is our pitching to get back on track, and get us rolling again. With Janssen, Richmond, Marcum all on the way, and Downs back to stabilize our pen, we have a shot at getting back into contention. Winning a spot in the playoffs might be unrealistic, but I still think 88 wins is possible.
It's looking very possible though that by the end of the month, ALL 5 starters from last year might be gone from our rotation!
Now what we need is our pitching to get back on track, and get us rolling again. With Janssen, Richmond, Marcum all on the way, and Downs back to stabilize our pen, we have a shot at getting back into contention. Winning a spot in the playoffs might be unrealistic, but I still think 88 wins is possible.
It's looking very possible though that by the end of the month, ALL 5 starters from last year might be gone from our rotation!
Wilner has been suggesting that Snider may be called up after the allstar break and Delluci will be dumped (I, for one, am all for this move). I still believe that 2010 is the best chance the Jays have at making a run at a playoff spot. The beasts of the AL East are not going anywhere and if we can resign Scoot and Snider can break through this team, in my opinion, will be in the 90 win range if not better (or at least have the run differential of a 90 win team, though they may lose all these close games to the AL East again!). If payroll has to be cut, I think the best way would be to trade Rios to a team that wants him as their CF and use the $9.7 million allotted to him in 2010 on a hitter willing to take a one year deal. Of course, if JP gets rid of money I don't know that he will be able to use that money on a hitter, but I hope so at least. The 2010 pitching staff could be very good and, really, aside for some luck this team seems like it is a stabalized rotation and impact hitter away from contending.
Just like this team was not as good as the 27-14 team that was blowing out AL Central and West teams, it is certainly not as bad as the team that went 2-7 on their recent 9 game AL East road trip in which EVERY game was decided by 2 runs or less. Losing all these close games to AL East teams seems to be convincing people that the Jays cannot compete with the big boys which is ridiculous. If the Jays had simply had played as well as their 2008 run differential suggested, this discussion would likely not be happening and Doc would be signed to an extension. The 2010 team can be better than the 2008 team so I say go all in. This was supposed to be a "development" year anyway...
Losing all these close games to AL East teams seems to be convincing people that the Jays cannot compete with the big boys which is ridiculous.
How about a cursory look at the rosters shows that they can't keep up with those three teams? There is almost no way to put together the 2010 Jays to win 90 games, 90 wins is worthless with respect to the playoffs anyway. 90 wins in 2009 would probably keep the Jays in 4th place.
This chart details team attendance changes from 2008 to 2009. It tells the key story for the Jays of 2009, in my view.
Yes, there is a recession, but Toronto has not been particularly hard hit. House prices in the city are actually rising. There is no reason for a club that was winning (and which had no competition for the sports dollar from the Leafs in the spring) to draw so poorly, and in particular to do significantly worse than the average major league team. How many Torontonians know who Aaron Hill is? His story is compelling, and his performance great, but to the average Torontonian, he is less familiar than whomever is the Leafs' 3rd line right winger or 6th defenceman. There definitely has been a failure in promotion, and to my mind, it is a greater failure than any of the personnel decisions made by Ricciardi.
I do not believe that the Toronto market (with the associated Canadian broadcast rights) is incapable of supporting a team that in a good year cannot compete with Boston and New York.
Yes, there is a recession, but Toronto has not been particularly hard hit. House prices in the city are actually rising. There is no reason for a club that was winning (and which had no competition for the sports dollar from the Leafs in the spring) to draw so poorly, and in particular to do significantly worse than the average major league team. How many Torontonians know who Aaron Hill is? His story is compelling, and his performance great, but to the average Torontonian, he is less familiar than whomever is the Leafs' 3rd line right winger or 6th defenceman. There definitely has been a failure in promotion, and to my mind, it is a greater failure than any of the personnel decisions made by Ricciardi.
I do not believe that the Toronto market (with the associated Canadian broadcast rights) is incapable of supporting a team that in a good year cannot compete with Boston and New York.
Careful about average house prices - when things are bad, the rich are still buying/selling, which can perversely drive average sale price up during a downturn (but I think sales are up too).
But the point about lack of promotion is a good one, but I'm not sure how to fix it. Rogers owns four sports-only channels, but still focuses on hockey news primarily, even in the offseason. I find Rogers-produced shows particularly awful, from the daily recap shows with highlight announcers I can't stand, to any of the "local sports team" shows (on the east coast, we get Senators shows...oh boy). Rogers sportsnet in general is hard to watch, and is doing a piss-poor job promoting anything. They seem content to "preach to the choir", as it were, that is, the shows are aimed at pre-existing fans.
The weekly Blue Jays show, which should by all rights be right up my alley, is barely watchable at times. Promotion of the team is on the ownership, not the players, and not the GM. The grotesque media concentration in Canada should be benefitting the Jays hugely, since Rogers own huge numbers of radio stations, magazines, and TV stations. It's also a main cable/internet/phone provider. And this has helped the Blue Jays how? All the Jays games used to be on TV anyway, but there hasn't been much attempt to make stars out of the Jays players.
But the point about lack of promotion is a good one, but I'm not sure how to fix it. Rogers owns four sports-only channels, but still focuses on hockey news primarily, even in the offseason. I find Rogers-produced shows particularly awful, from the daily recap shows with highlight announcers I can't stand, to any of the "local sports team" shows (on the east coast, we get Senators shows...oh boy). Rogers sportsnet in general is hard to watch, and is doing a piss-poor job promoting anything. They seem content to "preach to the choir", as it were, that is, the shows are aimed at pre-existing fans.
The weekly Blue Jays show, which should by all rights be right up my alley, is barely watchable at times. Promotion of the team is on the ownership, not the players, and not the GM. The grotesque media concentration in Canada should be benefitting the Jays hugely, since Rogers own huge numbers of radio stations, magazines, and TV stations. It's also a main cable/internet/phone provider. And this has helped the Blue Jays how? All the Jays games used to be on TV anyway, but there hasn't been much attempt to make stars out of the Jays players.
I agree here -- 13 of the Jays recent losses have been by 1 run. I'm sure the number goes up quite a bit if one includes two run losses. Much of what has happened to this team since May 18 is best described as luck.
The Doc's 50-50 comment is something I found odd. He wouldn't be kept abreast of the offers or know what the market is for him. I doubt JP would say that... which got me to thinking, he probably means it is 50-50 whether he'd wave his no trade clause, in reading the reporting on this it wasn't made clear.
It has been mentioned by many posters but trading Doc with JP in place makes zero sense. Trading Doc isn't exactly waving a white flag on 2010, as if Marcum (good chance), Litsch (good chance for ASB next yeat) and McGowan (odd case, last April it seemed like he'd be ready to go by May now he's had major set back) are added to Romero and Cecil/Zep. That's a good rotation top to bottom, but without an ace.
I'd also be in favour of trading Rios (and just inserting Snider) as his value his higher to teams other than the Jay. Unless they shift him to CF, Wells to LF and have Snider in RF (ego hit to Wells, but it might take some pressure off him as more than once he's cited pressure as a reason for him not perfoming at his best in interviews, ie. the reason he played hurt in 07 and his struggles at home this season - which have to even out, otherwise something is wrong). Trading Overbay (whose value has rebounded) and allowing Lind to take over 1B, would be a good move. I like Overbay's defense, but if the return is a need for the Jays, it could work (SF was said to be looking for a 1B).
Lastly, something about this smells like JP is drumming up interest and getting people to call. More than once on Wednesday's With JP he talked about not getting much interest on what he was shopping. Now every team must be looking at the Jays. Kind of a bait and switch - if a team wants to massively overpay for Doc he can be dealt (which I suspect has always been true) but given a ridiculous asking price for Doc, perhaps a team with pitching need will take one of the depth pitchers who've shown something (Tallet, Richmond, Purcey) but really don't have a place in the organization going forward.
Lastly, I can't see Rolen being traded, unless HIll will move to 3B and even that doesn't make sense as it is more valuable to have HIlls glove at 2B. There are no 3B prospects knocking on the door and while Emaus has some potential no 2B prospects either (unless we want to see another season of Mighty Joe).
If this talk was happening next year, I'd understand it, especially if Doc says, "I want to play for a contender". But this year and the subsequent talk of a mid-season rebuild just seem so much smoke with little fire. If JP is axed and Alex Anthopoulos takes over, fine, rebuild away. Trade from the pitching surplus. See if another team will take Wells (while the Jays eat some dough off the contract) or failing that move Rios. Look at trading Overbay/Rolen (Rolen only if a 3B comes back in either the Rios or pitching deal - frankly I'd like to see them target Josh Fields who really needs a change of scenery as he's been treaded badly by the White Sox org).
To sum up: if they've decided (despite what they've said) that 2010 is not their year (which to me is a ridiculous decision based on a month and a half of bad baseball which was preceded by a month and a half of great baseball) then go for it. But do it the right way. Not in-season. The return on Doc won't drop now. The economy will get better and teams will be less dear with prospects.
The more one thinks about it, the more ridiculous it seems that this Doc trade talk has come out of the blue. There is one and only one way that it make sense: if Doc has asked for a trade and has said he'll refuse to sign in Toronto. Then, of course, 2010 is not the Jays year and a rebuild is in order. In as much as I've liked JP as a general manager (he's been MUCH better than Ash) I don't want him to rebuild the team, because depending on what comes back in quantity in the trade, other pieces will be shifted around. A SS, then Scoot isn't resigned (I don't particularly think he ought to be resigned if the team is rebuilding). A 3B prospect that is almost ready, then Rolen needs to be offered around. More pitchers? Then even more has to be sorted out with the staff.
No trading Doc almost makes a rebuild necessary. It doesn't make sense. My perception is that it is JP announcing themselves as sellers early to get talks going because he's seen deals fall apart at the last minute (Ibanez). JP has built good (not great, which unfortunately the team needs to be to make the playoffs) and no one's noticed. From 06-present this team has been fun to watch. Sometimes painful (BJ now, Josh Towers in 06, back up catching Philips, the ghost of Frank Thomas being paid $10) but the team has been a good team each and every year. This team is better than they've been playing the past month and a half. There's too much parity in baseball to say their hot start was all strength of schedule.
Someday baseball will wise up and re-balance the schedule (by hopefully greatly reducing inter-league play)... but I suspect we'll have to wait until the commissioner changes. Hopefully, as was hinted at by a poster with the trade of Pedro, a Doc trade isn't the same type portentous deal. Attendance is down, but so are the number of freebies and deals. I'm not sure the baseball fan-base can take much more of this; a 5 year run at the bottom of the division (BAL looks to be getting better) might be the death knell that sends the team to another market (Charlotte? Las Vegas) -- right now that is doom and gloom, but we saw no bump in attendance when the team was was 15+ games over .500. Sure it was early, but the team was winning and looking good doing it.
All this said, with all the rumors, I can't see Doc going anywhere with out a package of players that includes at least 4 of the teams top prospects where one of which is knocking on the door. Beeston (or whomever) hamstrung this team over the winter by going to an $80 payroll. That extra $20 million spent wisely could have gone a long way. That said, punt Delucci now, bring Snider up. Evaluate all the pitchers at the ML level (bring Purcey up and throw Tallet back in the pen) -- if the season is lost, the team needs to evaluate the young pitching. Not throw players like Tallet and Richmond who are back-end starters at the most. Try to flip the spare parts (pitchers above, along with Batista), also give JPA a chance to split time with Barajas. Then do the rebuild. Attendance can't get much worse and I suspect many fans would appreciate seeing the future.
Doc should not be traded in the next month. If he is JP has to go at the end of the year. No more good teams and JP has shown he can't do it on a $100M or $80M. I'm a big supporter, but any deal that doesn't improve the chances of wining in 2010 or 2011 by a ton (meaning ML-ready guys knocking on the door). Will only come to bight the team. Anyway rant done. This whole topic ticks me off, I was willing to go with the org when they said wait 2010 is on the horizon with prospects at the door. If Doc goes, 2010 is a write off and the Jays aren't even a good team anymore. Agh. Sorry about the length of this screed. I'm just tired of this story and why it won't die. It should die, it is a non-story.
The Doc's 50-50 comment is something I found odd. He wouldn't be kept abreast of the offers or know what the market is for him. I doubt JP would say that... which got me to thinking, he probably means it is 50-50 whether he'd wave his no trade clause, in reading the reporting on this it wasn't made clear.
It has been mentioned by many posters but trading Doc with JP in place makes zero sense. Trading Doc isn't exactly waving a white flag on 2010, as if Marcum (good chance), Litsch (good chance for ASB next yeat) and McGowan (odd case, last April it seemed like he'd be ready to go by May now he's had major set back) are added to Romero and Cecil/Zep. That's a good rotation top to bottom, but without an ace.
I'd also be in favour of trading Rios (and just inserting Snider) as his value his higher to teams other than the Jay. Unless they shift him to CF, Wells to LF and have Snider in RF (ego hit to Wells, but it might take some pressure off him as more than once he's cited pressure as a reason for him not perfoming at his best in interviews, ie. the reason he played hurt in 07 and his struggles at home this season - which have to even out, otherwise something is wrong). Trading Overbay (whose value has rebounded) and allowing Lind to take over 1B, would be a good move. I like Overbay's defense, but if the return is a need for the Jays, it could work (SF was said to be looking for a 1B).
Lastly, something about this smells like JP is drumming up interest and getting people to call. More than once on Wednesday's With JP he talked about not getting much interest on what he was shopping. Now every team must be looking at the Jays. Kind of a bait and switch - if a team wants to massively overpay for Doc he can be dealt (which I suspect has always been true) but given a ridiculous asking price for Doc, perhaps a team with pitching need will take one of the depth pitchers who've shown something (Tallet, Richmond, Purcey) but really don't have a place in the organization going forward.
Lastly, I can't see Rolen being traded, unless HIll will move to 3B and even that doesn't make sense as it is more valuable to have HIlls glove at 2B. There are no 3B prospects knocking on the door and while Emaus has some potential no 2B prospects either (unless we want to see another season of Mighty Joe).
If this talk was happening next year, I'd understand it, especially if Doc says, "I want to play for a contender". But this year and the subsequent talk of a mid-season rebuild just seem so much smoke with little fire. If JP is axed and Alex Anthopoulos takes over, fine, rebuild away. Trade from the pitching surplus. See if another team will take Wells (while the Jays eat some dough off the contract) or failing that move Rios. Look at trading Overbay/Rolen (Rolen only if a 3B comes back in either the Rios or pitching deal - frankly I'd like to see them target Josh Fields who really needs a change of scenery as he's been treaded badly by the White Sox org).
To sum up: if they've decided (despite what they've said) that 2010 is not their year (which to me is a ridiculous decision based on a month and a half of bad baseball which was preceded by a month and a half of great baseball) then go for it. But do it the right way. Not in-season. The return on Doc won't drop now. The economy will get better and teams will be less dear with prospects.
The more one thinks about it, the more ridiculous it seems that this Doc trade talk has come out of the blue. There is one and only one way that it make sense: if Doc has asked for a trade and has said he'll refuse to sign in Toronto. Then, of course, 2010 is not the Jays year and a rebuild is in order. In as much as I've liked JP as a general manager (he's been MUCH better than Ash) I don't want him to rebuild the team, because depending on what comes back in quantity in the trade, other pieces will be shifted around. A SS, then Scoot isn't resigned (I don't particularly think he ought to be resigned if the team is rebuilding). A 3B prospect that is almost ready, then Rolen needs to be offered around. More pitchers? Then even more has to be sorted out with the staff.
No trading Doc almost makes a rebuild necessary. It doesn't make sense. My perception is that it is JP announcing themselves as sellers early to get talks going because he's seen deals fall apart at the last minute (Ibanez). JP has built good (not great, which unfortunately the team needs to be to make the playoffs) and no one's noticed. From 06-present this team has been fun to watch. Sometimes painful (BJ now, Josh Towers in 06, back up catching Philips, the ghost of Frank Thomas being paid $10) but the team has been a good team each and every year. This team is better than they've been playing the past month and a half. There's too much parity in baseball to say their hot start was all strength of schedule.
Someday baseball will wise up and re-balance the schedule (by hopefully greatly reducing inter-league play)... but I suspect we'll have to wait until the commissioner changes. Hopefully, as was hinted at by a poster with the trade of Pedro, a Doc trade isn't the same type portentous deal. Attendance is down, but so are the number of freebies and deals. I'm not sure the baseball fan-base can take much more of this; a 5 year run at the bottom of the division (BAL looks to be getting better) might be the death knell that sends the team to another market (Charlotte? Las Vegas) -- right now that is doom and gloom, but we saw no bump in attendance when the team was was 15+ games over .500. Sure it was early, but the team was winning and looking good doing it.
All this said, with all the rumors, I can't see Doc going anywhere with out a package of players that includes at least 4 of the teams top prospects where one of which is knocking on the door. Beeston (or whomever) hamstrung this team over the winter by going to an $80 payroll. That extra $20 million spent wisely could have gone a long way. That said, punt Delucci now, bring Snider up. Evaluate all the pitchers at the ML level (bring Purcey up and throw Tallet back in the pen) -- if the season is lost, the team needs to evaluate the young pitching. Not throw players like Tallet and Richmond who are back-end starters at the most. Try to flip the spare parts (pitchers above, along with Batista), also give JPA a chance to split time with Barajas. Then do the rebuild. Attendance can't get much worse and I suspect many fans would appreciate seeing the future.
Doc should not be traded in the next month. If he is JP has to go at the end of the year. No more good teams and JP has shown he can't do it on a $100M or $80M. I'm a big supporter, but any deal that doesn't improve the chances of wining in 2010 or 2011 by a ton (meaning ML-ready guys knocking on the door). Will only come to bight the team. Anyway rant done. This whole topic ticks me off, I was willing to go with the org when they said wait 2010 is on the horizon with prospects at the door. If Doc goes, 2010 is a write off and the Jays aren't even a good team anymore. Agh. Sorry about the length of this screed. I'm just tired of this story and why it won't die. It should die, it is a non-story.
I think part of that attendance is partially deflated because of the small number of home games against the Red Sox and Yankees. Also, much noise has been made at the lack of free tickets. I wouldn't be surprised if much of the deficit between 08 and 09 is because of the these two factors.
Perhaps I'm mis-remembering things, but the lack of "star power" in Toronto players has gone on for a long time. Delgado was big, but I doubt his "star factor" was anywhere near where is now when he plays in NY. Robbie Alomar was probably the closest thing the Jays have ever had to a star, when he did the "catch the taste" commercials. I don't know if being used in ads is the best measure of stardom in general public but the fact that no Jay player has appeared in a commercial (outside of Jays ads and the odd charity work advertising).
Doc should not be traded in the next month. If he is JP has to go at the end of the year.
My bottle of Laphroig Quarter Cask gets opened once a year, for a wee dram on St. Patrick's Day, which happens to be my--and Raoul Chavez's--birthday. The day JP is canned, I'm going to make an exception. Cheers!
To sum up: if they've decided (despite what they've said) that 2010 is
not their year (which to me is a ridiculous decision based on a month
and a half of bad baseball which was preceded by a month and a half of
great baseball)
It's actually more ridiculous than that.
On June 26, the Jays were 7 games over, 1 game out of a playoff spott, and had the 4th best run differential in the major leagues. They were 7-3 in their last 10 games and 14-11 (.560, a 91 win pace) since the nine-gamer.
So in essence, the turn from "exceeding expectations" to "the sky is falling" is a matter of about two weeks of awful results.
As you say, it makes no sense - the only logical possibilities are (a) the trade talk is far overblown in the media and it's unlikely anyone important is dealt; or (b) Rogers had given orders from the start to ditch a lot of payroll and managment was just waiting for the cover that came from a fall from contention in order to go public with carrying out that directive.
It's actually more ridiculous than that.
On June 26, the Jays were 7 games over, 1 game out of a playoff spott, and had the 4th best run differential in the major leagues. They were 7-3 in their last 10 games and 14-11 (.560, a 91 win pace) since the nine-gamer.
So in essence, the turn from "exceeding expectations" to "the sky is falling" is a matter of about two weeks of awful results.
As you say, it makes no sense - the only logical possibilities are (a) the trade talk is far overblown in the media and it's unlikely anyone important is dealt; or (b) Rogers had given orders from the start to ditch a lot of payroll and managment was just waiting for the cover that came from a fall from contention in order to go public with carrying out that directive.
When it comes to promotion...
Back in the 1970s when the Jays came to town I recall getting free ball caps and other Jays stuff via cub scouts, via my Globe & Mail paper route, via group trips from McDonald's, etc. They had a promotion with a grocery store in the 80's where they gave out free colouring books to kids. Stuff like that put the Jays into my head, and into other kids heads so that when the great years of 83-93 came we were primed and ready for it. Henke doing those ads for Aqua-Velva and the like didn't hurt either for keeping the Jays in the public eye, but those the team has little control over directly (although Rogers could use the players more in their stores and the like - Cito's picks for movie of the week and the like). Why did I find out about Halladay being involved with Sick Kids through a web search rather than it being public knowledge ahead of time? Yes, he might have wanted it low key, but the team needs to impress upon their big players that promoting their charity work can lead to additional funds going to those charities (Crones & Colitis [iirc] got a big boost from Henke/Eichhorn in the 80's) as well as extra promotion for the team in a positive way.
Godfrey put the Jays out there a lot more than happened during the Ash years, but more was and is still needed. Fans come via childhood memories and kids demanding their parents take them to the game for birthdays and the like. Lets see more promos targeting those kids.
Back in the 1970s when the Jays came to town I recall getting free ball caps and other Jays stuff via cub scouts, via my Globe & Mail paper route, via group trips from McDonald's, etc. They had a promotion with a grocery store in the 80's where they gave out free colouring books to kids. Stuff like that put the Jays into my head, and into other kids heads so that when the great years of 83-93 came we were primed and ready for it. Henke doing those ads for Aqua-Velva and the like didn't hurt either for keeping the Jays in the public eye, but those the team has little control over directly (although Rogers could use the players more in their stores and the like - Cito's picks for movie of the week and the like). Why did I find out about Halladay being involved with Sick Kids through a web search rather than it being public knowledge ahead of time? Yes, he might have wanted it low key, but the team needs to impress upon their big players that promoting their charity work can lead to additional funds going to those charities (Crones & Colitis [iirc] got a big boost from Henke/Eichhorn in the 80's) as well as extra promotion for the team in a positive way.
Godfrey put the Jays out there a lot more than happened during the Ash years, but more was and is still needed. Fans come via childhood memories and kids demanding their parents take them to the game for birthdays and the like. Lets see more promos targeting those kids.
Maybe JP could channel the spirit of Branch Rickey:
"So, Mr. Cashman, you're offering Hughes, Chamberlain and Montero for Halladay. An interesting proposition. But have you considered that your stadium favours left-handers? We can certainly help you there. We have David Purcey and Brad Mills, both fine young lefthanded pitchers who would thrive in your ballpark. So I'll give you your choice - Purcey or Mills for Hughes, Chamberlain and Montero. Which would you prefer?"
Just hang up the phone on the Angels. Please. Now.
If the Jays were to move Wells, they'd likely have to be able to do it on his own merit, not on the heels of Halladay.
That said, if there is one team I've looked at as a possible suitor for Wells, it's the Giants. The downside is that to take him, they would likely want to send Zito the other way.
Wells has played well this year when he's not in Toronto, and I don't see why any hopeful GM can't hope to get those All-star numbers from him.
But being the armchair GM that you know you are, how would you evaluate sending Wells to the Giants for Zito?
And if San Francisco really wanted to get in the playoff mix, they may go for the contracts of Rolen and Overbay as well.
That said, if there is one team I've looked at as a possible suitor for Wells, it's the Giants. The downside is that to take him, they would likely want to send Zito the other way.
Wells has played well this year when he's not in Toronto, and I don't see why any hopeful GM can't hope to get those All-star numbers from him.
But being the armchair GM that you know you are, how would you evaluate sending Wells to the Giants for Zito?
And if San Francisco really wanted to get in the playoff mix, they may go for the contracts of Rolen and Overbay as well.
RhyZa's right - HANG UP on the Angels NOW.
There is NO ONE - or NO COMBINATION of ones - in that organization - that I'd trade Roy for. Their TOP 10 prospects are all suspect.
There is NO ONE - or NO COMBINATION of ones - in that organization - that I'd trade Roy for. Their TOP 10 prospects are all suspect.
If the Jays trade Halladay, it would be equivalent to saying, "We give up. We can't afford to compete any more." There is no sound baseball reason to trade one of the game's very best pitchers - if not the best - who has many good years ahead of him.
No, they just can't afford a $20M do-over without an amputation.
ESPN's "Rumour" section (subscription required) says the Red Sox are sniffing at Scott Rolen since Lowell's hip looks to be a continuing concern.
I'm beginning to think the "Three R's" - Roy, Rios and Rolen are soon to be toast - saving over 36 million off next years payroll.
Here's how I think we'll look - IF - we didn't get any major league ready BATS OR PITCHERS in the trades for those guys:
LF - Lind (L), CF - Wells (R), RF - Snider (L), 3RD - Bautista (R), 2ND - Campbell (L), SS - Hill (R), 1ST - Overbay (L), C - Barajas (R), DH - Dopirak (R).
Can't think of any other way to make it fit with the pieces we have - funny enough - I kinda like that lineup.
Backed by: Marcum, Romero, Cecil, Rzepczynski and one of: Litsch, McGowan (IF healthy), and a gang of thousands.
With a Pen of: Downs, Frasor, League, Accardo, Janssen, Richmond, Tallet and or etc., etc....
I know I've a reputation as a tiny, weeny bit of an optomist - BUT - PERSONALY - I wouldn't mind watching those guys play - I think that team could surprise. AND - NO - I am NOT on illegal drugs - just seroids, HGH and blood doping (like any self respecting baseball fan) - and LOTS of coffee - that may explain the CAPS.
I'm beginning to think the "Three R's" - Roy, Rios and Rolen are soon to be toast - saving over 36 million off next years payroll.
Here's how I think we'll look - IF - we didn't get any major league ready BATS OR PITCHERS in the trades for those guys:
LF - Lind (L), CF - Wells (R), RF - Snider (L), 3RD - Bautista (R), 2ND - Campbell (L), SS - Hill (R), 1ST - Overbay (L), C - Barajas (R), DH - Dopirak (R).
Can't think of any other way to make it fit with the pieces we have - funny enough - I kinda like that lineup.
Backed by: Marcum, Romero, Cecil, Rzepczynski and one of: Litsch, McGowan (IF healthy), and a gang of thousands.
With a Pen of: Downs, Frasor, League, Accardo, Janssen, Richmond, Tallet and or etc., etc....
I know I've a reputation as a tiny, weeny bit of an optomist - BUT - PERSONALY - I wouldn't mind watching those guys play - I think that team could surprise. AND - NO - I am NOT on illegal drugs - just seroids, HGH and blood doping (like any self respecting baseball fan) - and LOTS of coffee - that may explain the CAPS.
Dave, I would be reluctant to move Doc too, but I wouldn't go so far as to say that moving Doc is in itself a sign of surrender which cannot possibly be justified on baseball grounds. If the Rays offered up Upton, Longoria, Garza, Niemann, Desmond Jennings and Tim Beckham for Halladay, I would ask where I sign. If the Rangers offered up Feliz, Holland, Andrus, Smoak, Teagarden and Wilmer Font, same idea. Trading Doc in a deal that doesn't objectively favor the Jays is a sign of surrender, I can accept that. But in the unlikely event someone offers a return that's worth it, even after you factor in the pain and suffering associated with letting a player who's committed so much time and effort to Toronto go, then sure. Pull the trigger.
Of course, if somebody offers the moon for Doc, that's a different story. But I can't see that happening - if he's traded, it'll probably be for prospects.
I knew that was coming...
There are very few teams that can offer a moon made of prospects. I hope JP is only talking to those teams.
There are very few teams that can offer a moon made of prospects. I hope JP is only talking to those teams.
If the moon is made of prospects, does this mean that the prospects are made of green cheese?
I am no longer contributing usefully to this discussion.
I am no longer contributing usefully to this discussion.
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20090714&content_id=5875004&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb
Blackout in Japan is lifted. Korea is the only country in the whole world now with a full 30 team blackout. As V-Dub would say- Goddamn it!
It sounds like Anaheim is offering green cheese. Leaking news that they're the frontrunners in the Doc sweepstakes can't possibly help the Jays. (Can it?)
if he's traded, it'll probably be for prospects.
Yes, that is the reality you face when you commit 81 million dollars to 8 players for 2010 and you only have an 80 million dollar payroll. This franchise dug it's own grave, Vernon Wells' contract was the final nail in the coffin.
I wouldn't mind watching those guys play
Enjoying 100 loss teams is an acquired taste I guess.....
I think part of that attendance is partially deflated because of the small number of home games against the Red Sox and Yankees. Also, much noise has been made at the lack of free tickets. I wouldn't be surprised if much of the deficit between 08 and 09 is because of the these two factors.
I think it's the difference and then some. They gave away TONS of free tickets in the Godfrey era. You would see completely random sections of the stadium fairly filled. It seemed like the people in front of us daily had promo tickets. I haven't seen much of that at all this year. It would not surprise me if there were 7,000 free tickets being given away each game on average in years past.
Walk around the city and you'll see more people wearing Jays merchandise than ever. I think the team has been fairly well marketed in the city. (Though if you really want to see a team marketed well, check out TFC)
No ownership condemned this team. I'm sorry but back when Wells was resigned Rogers was committing $100 million to payroll. Now they're saying we have to shave payroll down further and further. Can a team really survive when it's owners are constantly revising the budget dramatically?
Yes Wells is a bad contract. Hill and Doc are signed to bargain deals. Rios is also overpaid. Overbay was re-signed at a good price. Honestly for every bad contract with this team you can identify good ones too. I just feel it's completely unfair that Rogers a couple years ago seemed to be indicating that we were going to try to compete (signing AJ and BJ and re-signing Wells, etc) and now we're suddenly cash-strapped. JP's got a hard enough job on his hands without having to deal with flaky owners.
Yes Wells is a bad contract. Hill and Doc are signed to bargain deals. Rios is also overpaid. Overbay was re-signed at a good price. Honestly for every bad contract with this team you can identify good ones too. I just feel it's completely unfair that Rogers a couple years ago seemed to be indicating that we were going to try to compete (signing AJ and BJ and re-signing Wells, etc) and now we're suddenly cash-strapped. JP's got a hard enough job on his hands without having to deal with flaky owners.
The beginning of my post should read "No, ownership condemned this team."
Excuse the editing.
Excuse the editing.
Re-signing Doc will require money and demonstrating that the team is committed to winning. Demonstrating that the team is committed to winning usually comes in the form of signing free agents, which involves more money. So unless Rogers is planning to increase payroll by 40-50 million, the Jays will have to unload salary. Wells is immovable barring a God-like second half resurgence combined with some sort of fool GM. Rios is slightly more moveable, but ultimately Rolen and Overbay are the easiest ways to clear salary. But it's pretty hard to trade those guys and get better immediately.
I hope that secretly behind the scenes, Rogers is planning to add a 150 million dollar payroll bump over the next three years, but realizing that is improbable, trading Doc is the best thing JP can do for this organization. So what if it's not market value, just take the offer.
Silver lining: If Doc dominates in Los Angeles/Philly/New York for the next 7 years, his Hall of Fame stock rises considerably! Induction Day 2021! (More than 7 years and he may go in as a member of that team)
Silver lining: If Doc dominates in Los Angeles/Philly/New York for the
next 7 years, his Hall of Fame stock rises considerably! Induction Day
2021! (More than 7 years and he may go in as a member of that team)
Even if it 7 years, there is a good chance he would go in for that team. 7 good-great years and he would roughly match his Ws with the Jays plus some post-season heroics. If he leaves now, odds are against him going in as a Jay.
Even if it 7 years, there is a good chance he would go in for that team. 7 good-great years and he would roughly match his Ws with the Jays plus some post-season heroics. If he leaves now, odds are against him going in as a Jay.
Off topic, but I've always wished that this pena/blog/forum had an edit post functionality. It can't be that difficult to implement, many other places have it. Is it a limitation of the software being used to run this site?
So much of that depends. If he leaves and changes teams a couple of times, or even just once in the 7 year span, odds are he goes in as a Jay. Also, kind of like the Gary Carter situation, the HOF people might want him to go in as the first Jay (especially if Alomar/Delgado don''t make it).
If Rolen, Rios and Halladay are traded, the team would have to get back at least one player who could crack that lineup next year (most likely a shortstop, as Hill likely doesn't want to move off second.)
And as stated, that's not a team that can compete in the A.L. East. Frankly, that team can't compete with next year's Baltimore squad.
If he leaves now, odds are against him going in as a Jay.
This is starting to look like the gone but not forgotten thread.
I'm trying to think of what veterans, if any, the Jays have traded for young promising players in the last fifteen years. Trading veterans for veterans, or young guys with little service time for same doesn't qualify. (no Koch for Hinske)
The only name I can come up with is Cruz Jr. That's the only reasonable qualifying acquisition of a promising young player I can think of for the list. Has there been any other player than Mike Timlin who was at least 30 years of age moved for a player under 25? There is the second time the Jays traded away Spoljaric, still 28, with old man Hentgen. The Jays got a young throwin named Dewitt with the aged Alberto Castillo and Lance Painter. Then there was the time they landed Scott Rivette for Ed Sprague. Rivette never saw the major leagues.
The story of the guys under 25 traded by the Jays for guys over 30 is a much richer, but can anyone help expand this list? Have there really been no deals of note sending old chips out for shiny new blocks beyond Jose Cruz Jr.?
one more, I suppose we can add Tony Batista, who was 25 when the Jays acquired him -- if you can believe Dominican papers that state he was born in 1973.
Looks like Doc's going...to Chicago! (Not the city, the music - if you leave me now, you'll take away the deepest part of me, ooooh no baby please don't go.)
"So in essence, the turn from "exceeding expectations" to "the sky is falling" is a matter of about two weeks of awful results.
As you say, it makes no sense - the only logical possibilities are (a) the trade talk is far overblown in the media and it's unlikely anyone important is dealt; or (b) Rogers had given orders from the start to ditch a lot of payroll and managment was just waiting for the cover that came from a fall from contention in order to go public with carrying out that directive."
Well, I think there is another possibility. The Jays, overall, have been about as good as anyone should have expected. What happened was that the Jays could not possibly talk trading for the future while they were near the top of the division. It doesn't have to be about payroll, it could be about trying to build a winning core for the future. The inevitable return to near the .500 mark allowed the Jays to try to do just that.
As you say, it makes no sense - the only logical possibilities are (a) the trade talk is far overblown in the media and it's unlikely anyone important is dealt; or (b) Rogers had given orders from the start to ditch a lot of payroll and managment was just waiting for the cover that came from a fall from contention in order to go public with carrying out that directive."
Well, I think there is another possibility. The Jays, overall, have been about as good as anyone should have expected. What happened was that the Jays could not possibly talk trading for the future while they were near the top of the division. It doesn't have to be about payroll, it could be about trying to build a winning core for the future. The inevitable return to near the .500 mark allowed the Jays to try to do just that.
The Jays could conceivably have a better rotation next year without Doc depending on what comes back. For example, if Kershaw were the centrepiece of a deal (though that'd be pretty shocking, wouldn't it?) and the Jays replaced Tallet's spot with a free agent such as Bedard, they could be cheaper and better...
Absolute most ridiculous fantasy trade that I would LOVE if the Dodgers considered:
Kershaw or Billingsley, Kemp & Pierre for
Halladay, Rios, Tallet & Frasor
The Dodgers get the best pitcher in baseball for their playoff run (as opposed to Kershaw with pitch restrictions), dump Pierre and switch Kemp with Rios...while also getting another 5th starter option in Tallet and the late inning reliever they covet. The Blue Jays, well, just made their team a whole lot better and cheaper, in my opinion, for the future...
Geoff, does Hillenbrand + Chulk for Accardo count? Especially given the circumstances, that JP basically had to trade Hillenbrand, it was a particularly good trade. Whether or not Accardo fits your description of "promising young player", I don't know!
All I want for Christmas this year is a Jay's payroll in excess of $100,000,000. Oh, and for Rogers to start broadcasting all the Jays games for free on basic cable (or at least on their "Main" sportsnet channel that is included with basic cable. It's a sad state of affairs when my grandfather, who watches the Jays religiously (or used too) can't watch them anymore because he doesn't have the additional sportsnet channels. Over at my place the other day, he asked "Whose that?" more times than I care to remember. How is this helping to promote the team across the country?
Sometimes I wonder if Rogers doesn't have it backwards. Why treat the Jays as a business unit and attempt to make money off them. Jack the payroll and lose money on the Jays, but gain it back through their other business avenues.
I ask this question in sincerity: Don't you think Rogers could generate a lot of loyal customers by turning the Jays into a powerhouse? Jack the payroll to $125,000,000. The Jays might not be profitable, but if you get the fanbase back, across Canada, I'm thinking you get a lot more people subscribing to Rogers who otherwise would be indifferent about who to pick for their cable provider (or internet, or phone, etc). Rogers certainly has the capability to brand the Jays aggressively coast to coast, but so far has chosen not too.
It is sad that the Jays have to do this, espescially when Beeston was suggesting that the money would be there if the team was close; well, what is really needed is one BIG bopper, resigning Scoot and Rios is expendable. Fine, the Jays attendance is sucking...but, geez, this team is probably a fringe contender in 2010 if they stand pat - frustrating as hell.
I don't see the Dodgers as a potential trade partner for Doc. They're already WS contenders--why mortgage away some key parts of their future (which looks extremely bright)?
Sounds like LaCava was watching some young Phillies - & more specificially highly touted youngster Jason Knapp:
"Toronto Assistant General Manager Anthony LaCava was in Lakewood on Monday sitting behind home plate. Jason Knapp was on the mound and he had an uncharacteritic awful outing, lasting just 0.2 of an inning."
^^^ Found this on phuturephillies.com
"Toronto Assistant General Manager Anthony LaCava was in Lakewood on Monday sitting behind home plate. Jason Knapp was on the mound and he had an uncharacteritic awful outing, lasting just 0.2 of an inning."
^^^ Found this on phuturephillies.com
Yes, Hillenbrand-Accardo would qualify. He was traded five days before his 31st birthday (technically, if he were traded five days before his 30th birthday, he wouldn't have made the cut). Jeremy, for his part, was only 24 at the time of the trade.
Perhaps I could relax this filter of >30 and <=25. If it was expanded to players who have at least 4 years of service time more than the key player he is dealt for, then the Jays can add Robert Person -- who was only 14 months younger than John Olerud. I'd have to say that the young player must not yet have reached his 26th birthday, disqualifying Person. So, for example, allow any 27-year-old who is traded for a guy under 26 with four fewer years of service time. And how would other MLB organizations fare on these lists. Methinks Oakland and Minnesota, for example would have an impressive string of names.
Who else would there be in the history of the Jays using their veterans to acquire younger talent? Cruz Jr. and Accardo is all we have so far. I understand the newer trend is to let guys walk at free agency for draft picks, but other teams do better than this, no? How would the other AL East teams do? Bedard would qualify under the four more years than the return of Adam Jones. I'd have to give the Rays the Zambrano-Kazmir deal.
Boomer Wells and Rocket Roger didn't bring back guys 25 or under. What have we got?
July 1995 - David Cone for three minor league pitchers who never amounted to anything.
Boomer Wells and Rocket Roger didn't bring back guys 25 or under.
Randy Johnson?
January 9, 2007: Traded by the New York Yankees with cash to the Arizona Diamondbacks for Steven Jackson (minors), Alberto Gonzalez, Ross Ohlendorf and Luis Vizcaino.
Yeah, that didn't work out so well. Ohlendorf still has a chance to develop -- with the Pirates. And Gonzalez too -- with the Nats. Vizcaino is a Rockie now, but was already over 30 when the above trade went down. Oh well, at lest Ohlendorf was part of the package that brought back Nady and Marte.
July 1995 - David Cone for three minor league pitchers who never amounted to anything.
Yes, but Marty Janzen did at least see the majors, so we can add him to the list.
Also, there's Paul Quantrill who was moved with a very young Cesar Izturis to bring back Luke Prokopec.
That makes Janzen, Cruz Jr, Prokopec and Accardo for the list of young talent acquired by shipping out veterans. Not a fine history so far. How many teams are in the same if not worse dismal boat?
Cone for the 3 minor leaguers = Gord Ash not trusting minor league prospects unless they were already in AAA with some ML service time.
Barfield (29) for Al Leiter (23) comes to mind as a close to qualifying, Doyle Alexander (35) for Duane Ward (22), Jim Acker (27 in his 4th ML season) for Joe Johnson (24), Ernie Whitt (37) for Rick Trlicek (21).
Those are a few that qualify or come close that I recall.
Barfield (29) for Al Leiter (23) comes to mind as a close to qualifying, Doyle Alexander (35) for Duane Ward (22), Jim Acker (27 in his 4th ML season) for Joe Johnson (24), Ernie Whitt (37) for Rick Trlicek (21).
Those are a few that qualify or come close that I recall.
Those are some good examples (Leiter, Ward) but I wanted to focus on the last 15 years, or post-1994 strike, which I take as a pretty good demarcation point for the Jays if not all of baseball where the economic and competitive landscape entered a new era.
It is surprising that the Jays didn't do more of this in the mid-90's. A good question is what did we get for the free agents who left via the draft choices?
1996...
Joe Lawrence (Blue Jays-1) - Pick from Orioles as compensation for Free Agent Roberto Alomar
Pete Tucci (Blue Jays-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent Roberto Alomar
Brent Abernathy (Blue Jays-2) - Pick from Marlins as compensation for Free Agent Devon White
Clayton Andrews (Blue Jays-3) - Pick from Marlins as compensation for Free Agent Devon White
2000...
Dustin McGowan (Blue Jays-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent Graeme Lloyd
Peter Bauer (Blue Jays-2) - Pick from Nationals as compensation for Free Agent Graeme Lloyd
2004...
Zach Jackson (Blue Jays-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent Kelvim Escobar
Adam Lind (Blue Jays-3) - Pick from Angels as compensation for Free Agent Kelvim Escobar
2007...
Kevin Ahrens (Blue Jays-1) - Pick from Rangers as compensation for Free Agent Frank Catalanotto
Brett Cecil (Blue Jays-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent Justin Speier
Justin Jackson (Blue Jays-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent Frank Catalanotto
Trystan Magnuson (Blue Jays-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent Ted Lilly
Eric Eiland (Blue Jays-2) - Pick from Angels as compensation for Free Agent Justin Speier
2009...
James Paxton (Blue Jays-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent A.J. Burnett
Jacob Marisnick (Blue Jays-3) - Pick from NYA as compensation for Free Agent A.J. Burnett
Well, Ash sucked at this (McGowan for Lloyd was good) while JP has soared. That is, unless you would trade Lind & Jackson for Escobar or Cecil/Eiland for Speier or Ahrens/Jackson for Catalanotto. The Lilly 'trade' might work out, as might the AJ one eventually.
In 1993 (before the requested period) the Jays got a stack of picks for Jimmy Key, David Cone, Tom Henke,and Manny Lee. This should've restocked the farm nicely for the Ash years. What did Gillick take?
Chris Carpenter (Blue Jays-1) - Pick from Rangers as compensation for Free Agent Tom Henke
Matt Farner (Blue Jays-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent David Cone
Jeremy Lee (Blue Jays-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent Tom Henke
Mark Lukasiewicz (Blue Jays-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent Jimmy Key
Anthony Medrano (Blue Jays-2) - Pick from Royals as compensation for Free Agent David Cone
Ryan Jones (Blue Jays-2) - Pick from Rangers as compensation for Free Agent Manuel Lee
Mike Romano (Blue Jays-3) - Pick from Yankees as compensation for Free Agent Jimmy Key
Well, Carpenter was/is good. The rest...ick. Guys who were drafted in the 2nd round (so could've been taken with the other first round picks the Jays had outside of Carp) included Scott Rolen, Jeff Suppan, Brad Fullmer among others.
In 1992 ...
Shannon Stewart (Blue Jays-1) - Pick from Dodgers as compensation for Free Agent Tom Candiotti
Brandon Cromer (Blue Jays-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent Tom Candiotti
1991...
Shawn Green (Blue Jays-1) - Pick from Giants as compensation for Free Agent Bud Black
Jeff Ware (Blue Jays-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent George Bell
Dante Powell (Blue Jays-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent Bud Black
Trevor Mallory (Blue Jays-2) - Pick from Cubs as compensation for Free Agent George Bell
1990...
Tim Hyers (Blue Jays-2s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent Lloyd Moseby
1989...
Brent Bowers (Blue Jays-2s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent Rick Leach
No other picks for free agents listed.
So for all the free agents the Jays have lost over the years they have gained some significant talent (Green, Carpenter, Stewart, McGowan, Lind, Cecil) but also lost a lot of good players (Key, Cone, Henke, AJ, Lilly, Escobar, Alomar, etc.). In truth it does work out in the long run, especially it appears under JP vs Ash (Gillick had a few very good picks and a lot of very bad ones). So, what if Halladay/Rolen/Scutaro leave as type A's - would it work out? Maybe for 2014 and beyond but boy would it suck for 2010-2013 for certain.
1996...
Joe Lawrence (Blue Jays-1) - Pick from Orioles as compensation for Free Agent Roberto Alomar
Pete Tucci (Blue Jays-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent Roberto Alomar
Brent Abernathy (Blue Jays-2) - Pick from Marlins as compensation for Free Agent Devon White
Clayton Andrews (Blue Jays-3) - Pick from Marlins as compensation for Free Agent Devon White
2000...
Dustin McGowan (Blue Jays-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent Graeme Lloyd
Peter Bauer (Blue Jays-2) - Pick from Nationals as compensation for Free Agent Graeme Lloyd
2004...
Zach Jackson (Blue Jays-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent Kelvim Escobar
Adam Lind (Blue Jays-3) - Pick from Angels as compensation for Free Agent Kelvim Escobar
2007...
Kevin Ahrens (Blue Jays-1) - Pick from Rangers as compensation for Free Agent Frank Catalanotto
Brett Cecil (Blue Jays-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent Justin Speier
Justin Jackson (Blue Jays-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent Frank Catalanotto
Trystan Magnuson (Blue Jays-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent Ted Lilly
Eric Eiland (Blue Jays-2) - Pick from Angels as compensation for Free Agent Justin Speier
2009...
James Paxton (Blue Jays-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent A.J. Burnett
Jacob Marisnick (Blue Jays-3) - Pick from NYA as compensation for Free Agent A.J. Burnett
Well, Ash sucked at this (McGowan for Lloyd was good) while JP has soared. That is, unless you would trade Lind & Jackson for Escobar or Cecil/Eiland for Speier or Ahrens/Jackson for Catalanotto. The Lilly 'trade' might work out, as might the AJ one eventually.
In 1993 (before the requested period) the Jays got a stack of picks for Jimmy Key, David Cone, Tom Henke,and Manny Lee. This should've restocked the farm nicely for the Ash years. What did Gillick take?
Chris Carpenter (Blue Jays-1) - Pick from Rangers as compensation for Free Agent Tom Henke
Matt Farner (Blue Jays-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent David Cone
Jeremy Lee (Blue Jays-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent Tom Henke
Mark Lukasiewicz (Blue Jays-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent Jimmy Key
Anthony Medrano (Blue Jays-2) - Pick from Royals as compensation for Free Agent David Cone
Ryan Jones (Blue Jays-2) - Pick from Rangers as compensation for Free Agent Manuel Lee
Mike Romano (Blue Jays-3) - Pick from Yankees as compensation for Free Agent Jimmy Key
Well, Carpenter was/is good. The rest...ick. Guys who were drafted in the 2nd round (so could've been taken with the other first round picks the Jays had outside of Carp) included Scott Rolen, Jeff Suppan, Brad Fullmer among others.
In 1992 ...
Shannon Stewart (Blue Jays-1) - Pick from Dodgers as compensation for Free Agent Tom Candiotti
Brandon Cromer (Blue Jays-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent Tom Candiotti
1991...
Shawn Green (Blue Jays-1) - Pick from Giants as compensation for Free Agent Bud Black
Jeff Ware (Blue Jays-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent George Bell
Dante Powell (Blue Jays-1s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent Bud Black
Trevor Mallory (Blue Jays-2) - Pick from Cubs as compensation for Free Agent George Bell
1990...
Tim Hyers (Blue Jays-2s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent Lloyd Moseby
1989...
Brent Bowers (Blue Jays-2s) - Supplemental Pick for loss of Free Agent Rick Leach
No other picks for free agents listed.
So for all the free agents the Jays have lost over the years they have gained some significant talent (Green, Carpenter, Stewart, McGowan, Lind, Cecil) but also lost a lot of good players (Key, Cone, Henke, AJ, Lilly, Escobar, Alomar, etc.). In truth it does work out in the long run, especially it appears under JP vs Ash (Gillick had a few very good picks and a lot of very bad ones). So, what if Halladay/Rolen/Scutaro leave as type A's - would it work out? Maybe for 2014 and beyond but boy would it suck for 2010-2013 for certain.
This is the counter-strategy to trading away veterans and has indeed been the more common course of action for the Jays -- to let the old men walk and wait for the compensation picks to roll in.
I figured this line of questioning would evolve into a comparison of the two strategies, as well as the comparison of this organization's use of each strategy to what other clubs do. What better time to reflect than when the organization is considering to trade its greatest asset after years of not employing this strategy? It's a curious history and I'm still wondering about how what other teams are clearly in the same organizational philosophy and which aren't.
I think it all depends on where in the success cycle you are, and what is made available to you.
If the Jays feel they won't be able to do much until 2014, then letting guys leave for draft picks makes a lot of sense. If they feel they have the right guys in the high minors to replace the guys leaving, again the draft pick route makes a lot of sense. However, if they feel they can win between now and 2014 then trading for either ML proven talent (Ash in the Clemens for Wells trade for example) or ML ready talent (such as the Cruz Jr trade) would be the best move.
Both carry risks, both can make or break a GM with breaking being the most common result (many draft picks don't reach the majors until well after the guy drafting them has left, a hot prospect today can be the dud of tomorrow very quickly but if they succeed then the GM just 'got lucky' or got what was expected).
Letting guys leave as free agents also provides cover for the GM in the respect that he can complain about loyalty (i.e.: Leiter) or greed (just about every free agent out there) being the problem, not his ability to find talent or to sign the guy to a deal.
If the Jays feel they won't be able to do much until 2014, then letting guys leave for draft picks makes a lot of sense. If they feel they have the right guys in the high minors to replace the guys leaving, again the draft pick route makes a lot of sense. However, if they feel they can win between now and 2014 then trading for either ML proven talent (Ash in the Clemens for Wells trade for example) or ML ready talent (such as the Cruz Jr trade) would be the best move.
Both carry risks, both can make or break a GM with breaking being the most common result (many draft picks don't reach the majors until well after the guy drafting them has left, a hot prospect today can be the dud of tomorrow very quickly but if they succeed then the GM just 'got lucky' or got what was expected).
Letting guys leave as free agents also provides cover for the GM in the respect that he can complain about loyalty (i.e.: Leiter) or greed (just about every free agent out there) being the problem, not his ability to find talent or to sign the guy to a deal.
Randy Johnson?
January 9, 2007: Traded by the New York Yankees with cash to the Arizona Diamondbacks for Steven Jackson (minors), Alberto Gonzalez, Ross Ohlendorf and Luis Vizcaino.
Well, that deal was more because the Yanks didn't want Johnson ... who in his mid-forties, couldn't really be expected to bring back a big package.
January 9, 2007: Traded by the New York Yankees with cash to the Arizona Diamondbacks for Steven Jackson (minors), Alberto Gonzalez, Ross Ohlendorf and Luis Vizcaino.
Well, that deal was more because the Yanks didn't want Johnson ... who in his mid-forties, couldn't really be expected to bring back a big package.
I figured this line of questioning would evolve into a comparison of
the two strategies, as well as the comparison of this organization's
use of each strategy to what other clubs do. What better time to
reflect than when the organization is considering to trade its greatest
asset after years of not employing this strategy? It's a curious
history and I'm still wondering about how what other teams are clearly
in the same organizational philosophy and which aren't.
Good idea. All this trade talk got me thinking about previous veterans for prospects type deals, so off the top of my head I came up with a few from the past five years - I'm sure I missed a few trades, but it's still an interesting list. Not all veterans were in their free-agency year, so it's not a perfect comparison, but I found it interesting to put them together in a list. Overall, I'd say that many of the teams trading their veteran players, especially the star vets when the team wasn't under the gun to trade (see Santana, Johan), did quite well for themselves - scoring cheap contributors, prospects or, in a few lucky cases, future superstars (see Ramirez, Hanley).
What does the Box think of this list in terms of trading a veteran for prospects?
Good idea. All this trade talk got me thinking about previous veterans for prospects type deals, so off the top of my head I came up with a few from the past five years - I'm sure I missed a few trades, but it's still an interesting list. Not all veterans were in their free-agency year, so it's not a perfect comparison, but I found it interesting to put them together in a list. Overall, I'd say that many of the teams trading their veteran players, especially the star vets when the team wasn't under the gun to trade (see Santana, Johan), did quite well for themselves - scoring cheap contributors, prospects or, in a few lucky cases, future superstars (see Ramirez, Hanley).
What does the Box think of this list in terms of trading a veteran for prospects?
12/10/2008 A three-team deal: the Seattle Mariners traded J.J. Putz, Sean Green and Jeremy Reed to the New York Mets; the Cleveland Indians traded Franklin Gutierrez to Seattle and the Mets traded Aaron Heilman, Jason Vargas, Maikel Cleto, Endy Chavez, Ezekiel Carrera and Mike Carp to the Mariners; New York traded Joe Smith to the Indians and Seattle traded Luis Valbuena to Cleveland.
11/13/2008 Chicago White Sox traded Nick Swisher and Kaneoka Texeira to the New York Yankees for Jeff Marquez, Wilson Betemit and Jhonny Nunez.
11/12/2008 Colorado Rockies traded Matt Holliday to the Oakland Athletics for Huston Street, Greg Smith and Carlos Gonzalez.
7/26/2008 Los Angeles Dodgers traded Carlos Santana and Jonathan Meloan to the Cleveland Indians for Casey Blake and cash considerations.
7/25/2008 Pittsburgh Pirated traded Xavier Nady and Damaso Marte to the New York Yankees for Jose Tabata,Ross Ohlendorf, Jeff Karstens, and Daniel McCutchen.
7/07/2008 Cleveland Indians traded C.C. Sabathia to Milwaukee Brewers for Matt LaPorta, Rob Bryson, Zach Jackson and a player to be named later (Michael Brantley, Oct.3, 2008).
2/08/2008 Baltimore Orioles traded Erik Bedard to the Seattle Mariners for Adam Jones, George Sherrill, Chris Tillman, Tony Butler and Kam Mickolio.
2/02/2008 Minnesota Twins traded Johan Santana to the New York Mets for Carlos Gomez, Philip Humber, Kevin Mulvey and Deolis Guerra.
1/03/2008 Oakland Athletics traded Nick Swisher to the Chicago White Sox for Gio Gonzalez, Fautino De Los Santos and Ryan Sweeney.
12/14/2007 Oakland Athletics traded Dan Haren and Connor Robertson to the Arizona Diamondbacks for Brett Anderson, Dana Eveland, Greg Smith, Chris Carter, Aaron Cunningham and Carlos Gonzalez.
12/12/2007 Baltimore Orioles traded Miguel Tejada to the Houston Asros for Luke Scott, Troy Patton, Matt Albers, Dennis Sarfate and Mike Costanzo.
12/05/2007 Florida Marlins traded Dontrelle Willis and Miguel Cabrera to the Detroit Tigers for Burke Badenhop, Eulogio De La Cruz, Dallas Trahern, Andrew Miller, Mike Rabelo and Cameron Maybin.
7/31/2007 Texas Rangers traded Mark Teixeira and Ron Mahay to the Atlanta Braves for Jarrod Saltalamacchia, Elvis Andrus, Neftali Feliz, Matt Harrison and Beau Jones.
7/25/2007San Diego Padres traded Scott Linebrink to the Milwaukee Brewers for Joe Thatcher, Will Inman and Steve Garrison.
12/06/2006 Chicago White Sox traded Freddy Garcia to the Philadelphia Phillies for Gavin Floyd and Gio Gonzalez.
11/25/2005 Philadelphia Phillies traded Jim Thome and cash considerations to the Chicago White Sox for Aaron Rowand, Daniel Haigwood and a player to be named later (Dec. 8th - Gio Gonzalez)
11/24/2005 Florida Marlins traded Josh Beckett, Mike Lowell and Guillermo Mota to the Boston Red Sox for Hanley Ramirez, Anibal Sanchez, Jesus Delgado and Harvey Garcia.
12/18/2004 Oakland Athletics traded Mark Mulder to the St. Louis Cardinals for Dan Haren, Kiko Calero and Daric Barton.
12/16/2004 Oakland Athletics traded Tim Hudson to the Atlanta Braves for Dan Meyer, Juan Cruz and Charles Thomas.
I agree that GMs would find it much easier to take draft picks than to make a trade. But it seems to me that more often you get much better value for trading for prospects than to wait for the draft.
Many thanks to jerjapan for that list too. Going back another year, I'd add the trade of Richie Sexson to Arizona as a colossal blunder deal where Milwaukee received Chris Capuano, Craig Counsell, Chad Moeller, Lyle Overbay, Jorge de la Rosa and Junior Spivey while Arizona received all of 23 games and nine home runs of the absolute power of Sexson. Ouch.
Another thing I find interesting looking at the list or recent deals in this category is how many of the veterans didn't stay with the team that acquired them: Sabathia, likely Bedard (and Holliday), Teixeira, Linebrink, Garcia and of course Sexson. Resigning were Santana, Cabrera, Beckett, Hudson and Mulder. Seems 50/50. Although if you look where Sabathia, Bedard, Holliday, Teixeira, etc. went, and consider the dollars they were looking for -- it comes as little surprise they found a new destination.
Still under contract from the time they were traded: Thome, Haren, Tejada, Lowell, Nady, Bedard, Holliday, Putz and Swisher.
I'm probably way out of line, but thinking with my PR hat on, would what about using Doc in acquiring a premium Canadian talent?
Odds are the Red Sox are making the playoffs, and teams would rather not give up current roster material for a player at the deadline since usually they're lateral moves. But if Bay is a free agent at the end of the year with no guarantees of resigning, and it's widely acknowledged that two extremely good starters are a ticket to a Championship once you make the playoffs (Beckett and Doc), the Red Sox should at least consider it, of course as long as the Jays can negotiate a deal with Bay, and the Red Sox with Doc. The same principle carries a little less steam with the Dodgers and Martin. He's not a free agent until 2013, but the Dodgers are in the playoffs and have got to like their chances with Billingsley+ Halladay with Kershaw. Would they trade an amazingly huge shot at the world series for 4 years of Martin? Did I just suggest trading Doc to the Red Sox?
Odds are the Red Sox are making the playoffs, and teams would rather not give up current roster material for a player at the deadline since usually they're lateral moves. But if Bay is a free agent at the end of the year with no guarantees of resigning, and it's widely acknowledged that two extremely good starters are a ticket to a Championship once you make the playoffs (Beckett and Doc), the Red Sox should at least consider it, of course as long as the Jays can negotiate a deal with Bay, and the Red Sox with Doc. The same principle carries a little less steam with the Dodgers and Martin. He's not a free agent until 2013, but the Dodgers are in the playoffs and have got to like their chances with Billingsley+ Halladay with Kershaw. Would they trade an amazingly huge shot at the world series for 4 years of Martin? Did I just suggest trading Doc to the Red Sox?
Well, in theory, as much as I don't want to see Doc in Boston, you need to expand the idea.
Trade them Doc and Rios for Bay, Bucholz and etc. Then you have enough money saved fromthe two you dealt (some $25 million) that you can afford to offer 10 or 12 to Bay. And worse case scenario, you get the two picks for Bay this year which amounts to two "prospects to be named later" or is equivilant to the two picks you'd get from Doc.
Of course, the only way you do this is if you assume Rios will always dissapoint. And it will suck on ice if you trade him to Boston and THEN he figures out how to play up to his skills.
Trade them Doc and Rios for Bay, Bucholz and etc. Then you have enough money saved fromthe two you dealt (some $25 million) that you can afford to offer 10 or 12 to Bay. And worse case scenario, you get the two picks for Bay this year which amounts to two "prospects to be named later" or is equivilant to the two picks you'd get from Doc.
Of course, the only way you do this is if you assume Rios will always dissapoint. And it will suck on ice if you trade him to Boston and THEN he figures out how to play up to his skills.
As for the Dodgers, if they wouldtrade the right players you could pad out what you sent back to them. For instance, if you got Kershaw and Martin as the heart of the deal, you could and should add Tallet and Barajas to the deal going back so they can easier sustain loses from the major league roster.
I'm on the fence about Martin, anyways. He seems to have taken a considerable step backwards each of the last two years. He's only 26, so he still has time to turns things around but he's also a catcher. He might be done by the time he hits free agency.
He still has a good K/BB ratio, and his BABIP has remained remarkably consistant from year to year (low of .305 in his rookie season, high of .317, at .313 this year). He gets on base very well, but his power has really died. I wonder what's up with him.