OK, now things have reached rock bottom.  I think the organization has finally exhausted all conceivable ways to spark embarrassing headlines.  I can't think of any other on- or off-field aspect of the franchise which has been left unscathed by controversy or disappointment.

Onward and upward!

I've quoted Bill Cosby before and I'll quote him again:

Never challenge Worse.

Surprise, Surprise.

His in game management seemed to lack but I'm not a player so I always gave him the benefit of the doubt for everything else. I hadn't seen him in the clubhouse and for the most part, ex-players always had good things to say. But this really confirms that  maybe he doesn't do all the stuff I don't see all that well.

Unfortunately I feel some validation for this since I never really believe he received enough heat for his ridiculous use of Millar, questionable use of the bullpen, failure to recognize split stats, and reluctancy to hit Snider (and Lind at a point) higher up in the lineup. Unfairly, the blind support that Cito has in this city has made me pretty resentful to him, which is too bad.

I would hope that the new President of the team gets a blank chalkboard and not lingering remains of nostalgia. Personally, I would really like to see Manny Acta managing this team.

I have no idea how the Jays are going to sell season ticket packages this off-season. The Jays have been driven so far into the ground, I wouldn’t even be excited if the Jays were able to obtain Theo Epstein and swapped Brian Tallet for Tim Lincecum.

I simply can not believe the tone in here is Pro-Cito. All year we have all been ripping him constantly for his decisions...

For me, it's not that I'm Pro-Cito...it's just that this report of 'vets' being up in arms about him doesn't make much sense.  I mean, most of the gripes people have had with Cito this year stem from the fact that he seemed to perfer playing vets ahead of others (i.e. Doggedly having V-Dub in the 4-spot for the bulk of the year, continuing to trot out Millar even with the year in the toliet, playing J-Mac in the Out field(!)).

Personally, I think that their might be one mouthy player (a la Hilderbrand) who's spouting off, with bunch of 'sheep' who are letting their frustration with the lack of success cloud their judgement.

I like Cito, and I thought he brought some good things to the team... I think the agressive approach the hitters took after his arrival made most of them better players.

I was never really sure he was the right manager for this team, but I'd have trouble naming a good replacement.

This player revolt notwithstanding, I suspect Cito is done at the end of the year as our new GM shouldn't be expected to keep Cito.  JP needs to go, and Cito is probably going with him (whether that is right or not is a different issue).  This team has really lost its way, and needs some changes.  I've been saying that for almost two years.

• Wells, Hill and Lind have all played 150+ games so no playing time issues for them and only Wells has not played well this year of that group. 
  
• Scutaro will be the only guy in the 140's and he was thrilled with the chance he got. 
  
• Overbay is the lone guy in the 130's and I could see him complaining as he was an everyday player and I recall him complaining about it earlier in the year in a mild fashion but with a 124 OPS+ and being forced to platoon with Millar (78) would be frustrating. 
• In the 120's we have Barajas who is probably not happy that Cito pretty much said 'get lost' a few weeks ago but a guy hitting 228/259/409 should be happy to be in the majors
• In the 110's we have Bautista who is playing about what should've been expected (97 OPS+, 90 lifetime) but it is the lowest playing time he's had in his ML career.  He's played a lot more in September than earlier, but his OPS is 933 this month too (who knew?) his best of the year (April was 868 next best is 735 in June and sub 700 otherwise).  Doubt he is a complainer but who knows?
• We'll skip Rios & Rolen as both are gone now.
  
• In the 70's we have Millar, Snider and McDonald.  If Millar complains he should be shot from a cannon (wasn't clubhouse unity something he was supposed to be good for? Chalk up another 'win' in his column).  Snider is a rookie hitting for a 98 OPS+ and would like to play more and be talked to less.  McDonald has been left on the bench a lot until recently and when he asked for a chance to show he could do the outfield he got it so he better not whine either.
• Chavez is next in the 50's.  A backup catcher, AAAA guy, 2nd most games in the majors he has ever seen.  He should be very, very thankful to Cito.
• The 30's have Encaracion, Inglett, and Ruiz.  Ruiz is just happy to be here.  Encaracion is new here and not happy about being sent to Canada.  Inglett has a legit complaint about being sent to AAA after a great year in 2008 and if he isn't a complainer he should be.
• All others are under 10 games with Kyle Phillips being the only hitter still standing in that crew and given this is his first taste of the majors I suspect he wouldn't say a word about anything.

• Halladay has had a Cy Young type year and been allowed to be himself.  Might complain about the front office but I doubt he'd complain about Cito.
• Romero has been given a shot at the majors and done well.  A bit tired at the end but no signs of a reason to complain.
• Tallet should be super happy as he was given a chance to start and show he was worth more than your average middle man.
• Richmond might have a complaint as he was doing very well before being tossed aside for kids over and over again despite doing better than them at the time.  Still, as a guy in his 2nd year in organized ball he shouldn't complain much.
• Cecil & Rzep are kids getting their first shot - they'll say whatever Halladay tells them to say.
• Purcey might complain about being demoted and ignored, but again he was given a second shot and Cito has given him a shot each start with the pen saving his butt once and losing a win once since the callup.
• Janssen?  He might have a complaint due to his starting then shift to the pen.  Of course, an ERA of 6 will do that.  He had 2 good starts then a bad, then a good, then a bad and was demoted and shifted to the pen.  He was used a lot at first when called back up (3 out of 4 days) and has been used fairly regularly overall.  I see him as a potential complainer.
  
• Ray, Burres, Mills, and Litsch are all out of town now and none reached 5 starts.

• Carlson has not had a great year.  72 games, HR/9 identical to last year, BB/9 better but H/9 and SO/9 are worse.  Largely used in low leverage games (160 PA vs 58 medium and 69 high) but not that different from last year (104/64/69 PA's low/med/high) outside of extra time in low situations.  After never losing the lead when handed it last year he has blown 3 of those this year.  With the musical closer situation you'd think he would've been given a shot at some point but he wasn't (leads lost were in the 7th and 8th and 8th innings).  A likely complainer.
  
• League was viewed as a closer in waiting. 69 games though without a save.  3 blown saves one of which was a real save situation but a 2 inning one in May.  His low/med/high leverage PA's are 159/69/78.  A potential complainer.
• Frasor took most of the season but now is the closer.  Can't picture him complaining.
• Camp has been the rock of the pen a lot of the time, eating innings and the like.  Whats funny is this year is largely worse than last except in H/9 which shifted his ERA.  Plus playing time of course.  He looked to be a likely release in the offseason but now is likely to have a ML job in 2010 and beyond.  He should be very, very happy with Cito.
• Downs has a complaint.  He was going great then was allowed to hit and got hurt and never really recovered.  What was looking like a dream season became a nightmare.  That one incident and the fact he was brought back too quick could easily lead to complaints even though he probably would've done all that stuff (getting hurt by hitting, coming back too quick) if given the choices instead of the team having a choice.
• Ryan is gone.  Phew.  25 games was a few too many but Cito gave him just 8 high pressure games before shifting his role (2 saves, 2 blown).  His wildness had to drive the rest of the team batty.
• Accardo would be the loudest complainer I'm certain.  He has bounced up and down despite being reasonably effective on the surface.  But 6 BB/9 IP is not a good thing. 
  
• Hayhurst has more of a case, but is a AAAA guy who never dreamed he'd get this much of a chance (14 games).  Fairly effective when used but rarely used due to the number of bodies in the pen ahead of him.  Can't see him complaining.
  
• Wolfe looked likely to get more chances but 25 hits in 14 1/3 IP kind of kills any complaints he might have.
• Roenicke has been much like Accardo since coming here but not as lucky.  6.6 BB/9 but an ERA over 6.
• Murphy & Bullington were AAA guys given brief chances to collect ML paycheques.

I've got Mike Wilner's blog on my RSS feed, and his latest entry, about this whole Gaston business, starts with this sentence: "It's all true."

Link: http://blog.rogersbroadcasting.com/mikewilner/2009/10/02/the-cito-has-hit-the-fan/

Mike Wilner's word is good enough for me.

I'm not really concerned about whether Gaston has lost the room. It's easily fixed and it's not like he was ever going to be around for a long time anyway. The Jays have about twenty problems more serious than this one.

I would say that Cito isn't fired unless J.P. is fired.

J.P. isn't fired unless Beeston is replaced.

You can sub Doc for Cito and traded for fired and get the same result.

We need Beeston to name his replacement so we can get on with figuring out the future.

Everyone needs to focus on the Canadian Press story by Shi Davidi, not the vague and inaccurate Rosenthal report.   Shi Davidi is a hard-working beat reporter, diligent and honest, who spends a lot of time in the Jays locker room (which Rosenthal does not do).  Davidi's story also makes more sense:  it's not veterans complaining about a lack of playing time (which is illogical, as others already noted).  He says it's an accumulation of grievances on a variety of issues, including Gaston's on-field tactical decisions and his excessive criticism of his own players.   This makes more sense, and fits with what we know:  Gaston did a very good job for his first 162 games since his return last season, but the problems crept in after the first couple months of 2009 and began to get worse as Gaston lost patience with his players while the players got fed up with some of his on-field mistakes. 

 I've been a Cito defender since his return in mid-2008, but Davidi's story is well-documented and credible.  It's had a big impact on my assessment of Cito, and probably an impact on how Beeston thinks of Cito too.

Rosenthal claims that Gaston announced weeks ago that Barajas would not be back next season.  I'm not aware of any such quote from Gaston.  Has anyone seen such a comment from Gaston published anywhere?  I think this is one example of the inaccuracies in Rosenthal's report.

Meanwhile, Jordan Bastien has weighed in with his own confirmation of what Davidi wrote.  Here is the key passage of Bastien's blog a few minutes ago:    What I can say is that this has been building throughout this season. Gaston's old-school approach and his communication with players has not always worked well throughout Toronto's disappointing season. There is also division within the coaching staff, half of that group being leftover from when John Gibbons was at the helm.

Excellent article by Richard Griffin on his star website regarding this story - I have always felt that Cito is best suited to managing a veteran team - not ideally suited

to this blue jay team - but, I think Rosenthal article is overblown  - I think it is mainly the bullpen where the criticizism is coming from - and probably justifiable given

Gaston's historical poor use/repoire with his pitching staff and over-protection of his hitters. I also think that Ricciardi (who was forced to take Gaston and lost some

power to him) is behind it - also it is no surprise that Mike Wilner is piling on, he is one of Gaston's biggest critic & also a great pal of ricciardi .

Anyways, I won't be sad if Gaston goes - I just think this is the wrong team for him to manage.   

Ryan Day, it appears that the media was not manipulated at all -- the media actually kept the whole thing quiet for several weeks.   It finally leaked out today, but the beat reporters have been hearing it in the locker room for several weeks.  When it finally was reported, everyone from Bastian to Griffin admitted that the complaints have been circulating for a while.   My guess is this:  the beat reporters heard several players in the locker room complaining anonymously about Cito, but decided not to report it until the complaints reached a critical mass.  Then the CP reporter decided to go with it, and then everyone else chimed in with their own reflections on it.

In general, two or three anonymous complaints would not be reported -- precisely because they are anonymous.  You're right, anonymous complaints should be discounted somewhat.  But when the complaints are repeated by a larger number of players, it eventually becomes impossible to keep it quiet.

Also keep in mind that it would be EXTREMELY rare for any player to criticize the manager publicly.  It just doesn't happen.  If it does happen, the player is dumped faster than you can say "Shea Hillebrand".   Therefore, in sabermetric terms, we can estimate that one anonymous complaint by an anonymous player is worth 20 to 30 per cent of a public complaint by a named player.  So four or five anonymous complaints about Cito would have the same news value as a single public criticism of Cito by one individual player (unless he is Shea Hillebrand). 

From the afore mentioned linked Wilner piece:

"...I couldn’t do anything with the story because no one would agree to go on the record with me, but never in the time that I’ve been covering this team have I seen clubhouse discontent like this.  During the last homestand, I spoke to over a dozen people on the team, several of whom called me over in hushed tones to talk about their frustration with the skipper.

I’m not going to name any names, because nobody wanted to go on the record, but it’s widespread across the entire ballclub.  Pitchers and position players, high-profile, mid-profile and low-profile.  Cito Gaston has completely lost the clubhouse."

Why all the quibling over which columnist wrote what? It's all obviously true.

Some of these complainers on the roster should look at themselves a little harder.

Some of these complainers? According to Wilner, it's half ("over a dozen people") the team that's complaining. Not just Shea Hillenbrand and a couple of BJ Ryan's buddies.

Hill, Lind and Snider may just be where they are because of coaches other than Cito.  Lind does like to talk hitting, yes, but where is the outfield defensive teaching?  Rolen was finally healthy after three shoulder surgeries and has always been the best third baseman defensively...has nothing whatsoever to do with Cito.  Scuataro was never worked with in Oakland...he was a utility player and considered unimportant.

It's hard to think that Cito can be responsible for a little  good and not once hear from him what he takes the blame for?  Anything?

Ask Aaron Hill who has helped him most.  Scutaro, etc.

Romero gave all the credit to Arnsberg,  He saw in the Spring that Ricky was throwing across his body and Arny got him throwing in a straight line.

If it's a couple complainers than I agree with you.  If the entire roster is sick of the negativity and the '3 Amigo's'....as Wilner reports...the accusations have been substantiated.

The Paradox of Managing...

Every player would "like" to win. "All I want is a chance to win." They'll say. But if they don't win they still take their 6 million and head to the golf course. The Manager on the other hand is the ONLY guy in the dressing room with a MANDATE to win. Every night - every game - every inning - WIN! The Paradox is that the Manager also knows that VERY LITTLE of what goes on in the "short run" has statistical signifance in the "long run." When "Black" comes up 42 times in a row at a roulette table the gambler puts everything on "red." The Manager KNOWS that the odds of black coming up again are the same as they always are - about 48% (depends on if they have one "0" or a "00" as well). He knows MOST if not ALL of his micro-managing moves will be in vain. What he tries to do is work with the guy that can't hit lefties to help him lefties better - thus increasing his long term chances of success. If he doesn't use the guy agaisnt "lefties" he'll never learn to hit them. Managers live in a Hell of too much knowledge of the fact that the game is a marathon and too much fan (and higher up expectation) for continual success. Even the mighty Yankee juggernault was piss poor for a goodly part of this season.

Cito - like every Manager - knows "he's hired to be fired." The only guys that are sure we're right are us - the fans. And when we turn on a player, a coach, a manager or a GM then someone bumps them off. You can fire a few lowly paid and overworked sob's but you can't fire 25 Prima Donnas. The thought that a under performing guy like Wells could end the employment of a guy I'd buy a beer for anyday - anywhere - anytime - well...it hurts.

Cito - want to meet me for a beer or two? My treat. Anywhere, anytime, anyplace. Me I know it's a marathon and I know that EVERY YEAR there are 29 losers and only one winner. And Cito to me - you're a winner every year (even if they do axe ya)!

Will

Add Rolen? to that short list.

The Barajas thing is weird. Gaston made Barajas the starter last season, relegating Zaun to back-up duty, and has treated Barajas -- at least on the field -- better than he treats most. Barajas has often batted higher in the lineup than he deserves. He has been one player that Gaston has used as a pinch-hitter late in games. And Barajas can certainly not complain about playing time, as he has never logged as many ABs as in 2009.

I'm not saying Barajas doesn't have a legitimate beef with Gaston. As outsiders, how can any of us possibly know any of the details? I'm just saying that on the surface, you'd think Barajas would be a Gaston fan.

Will

Add Rolen? to that short list.

Interesting comments regarding Cito on The Fan 590 this afternoon.  I think it was Wilner and a few others saying that players look carefully at the lineup and that they may be seeing that guys such as Randy Ruiz who are hitting very well aren't playing and guys like Kevin Millar who are hitting very poorly are playing.  If this doesn't make sense to me (it doesn't) then for sure it doesn't make sense to the players either, and they don't like not having the best possible lineup on the field.  Heck, I feel that way when the guy making out our lineup for slopitch doesn't get the best lineup on the field, so I can imagine the pros would be pretty upset about it.

That was always something about Cito that I didn;t like - he seemed to have favourites that played even though there were better alternatives.  That, plus the extreme reluctance to use pinch hitters always seemed like pretty strong negatives about Cito.  Balanced against that was the fact that he seemed to be able to get the most out of a lot of players by creating a positive atmosphere for them.  If that is no longer the case, then I don't see why he should be retained.  They also reported on The Fan that Alex Anthopolous says Cito is staying as Manager.   

If it turns out to be true that JP dropped this bomb on the way out the door, that would be....astounding, even for him. A career ending move potentially.

Never would that happen. He'll get a job as soon as some media buzz wears down and diverts elsewhere or a soon as he wants a gig scouting, Assistant GMing, whatever. Worse %&*#-ups than him have found work again. 

DL: Who has most helped you to become an outstanding defensive second baseman?