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Look, no one said this was going to be easy.

After four weeks, the hometown nine sits at .500 (13-13) - only five other teams in the league actually have a better record at this point. Which none of you anticipated. Coming up next, however, is a 23 game stretch when they play at home just 5 times. They embark on a ten-day ten-game road trip tomorrow that will take them to Cleveland, Chicago, and Boston. The rotation, either by coincidence or cunning foresight, is set up so that only one of the three lefties (Eveland) will be asked to start in Fenway Park. After an off-day and a quick five game homestand, it's off for another eight games on the road.  Let's see if they're still within shouting distance (let's say three games) when they're done with this...

Travis Snider's ill luck continues - he comes down with "flu-like symptoms" on an afternoon when Ben Sheets' curveball was hanging on a tee and his fastball was as straight as arrow. When Johnny McDonald is ripping extra base hits around the yard... don't we all want to grab a bat? I know I do. Anyway, Edwin Encarnacion is ready to return any day now - I would expect that McCoy (but possibly Ruiz, who simply doesn't have a role on this team) will be dispatched to Las Vegas. Everyone else - Lewis, Bautista, and Snider - will lose a little bit of playing time as EE fits back into the... uh, rotation?

But sooner or later, Snider has to actually start hitting. At some point, you do have to earn playing time in this league.

The two new guys in the bullpen have improved the situation considerably. This wasn't hard - they're replacing two guys who were essentially useless. Jeremy Accardo may look like the guy who saved 30 games a few years ago, but he's got nothing else in common with him, starting with fastball command. The guy down in Vegas at the moment doesn't have any.  I wasn't too impressed with Roenicke in his late season audition last year - oh great, yet another guy who can throw 95 but doesn't have a clue where it's going. But Roenicke, who is fairly new to the job, looks much more like a pitcher this time around. Rommie Lewis got touched up for a couple of cheap runs yesterday. made possible by about as lame a double as you can imagine (but Eric Chavez needs a break so desperately - it was his first hit against a LHP since April 2009 - I don't really begrudge it). I've been somewhat impressed by Lewis anyway. Not surprised - I knew absolutely nothing about him before he got here. Knowing nothing, I had no expectations, and therefore could not be surprised. Anyway, what I've liked about Lewis is that he throws strikes. I always like that.

A bit of a break out day for Aaron Hill yesterday, who posted his first multi-hit game of 2010 and also drew his 10th base on balls in just 12 games. Hill's career high in walks is 42 (he's done it twice), and as I don't believe for an instant that he's really a 30 homer guy, I hope this is a genuine new ability. My problem with Hill, even last season, has been the enormous number of outs he consumes.

And what can we say about the Alex Gonzalez experience? You can not possibly stop him. You can only hope to contain him.

Inspired by the team's former ace tossing his second shutout and third complete game of the young season, I offered up a series of quizzes on complete games to my press box companions yesterday afternoon. No one knew anything. Neither did I, but I cleverly looked up the answers before posing the questions. Let me share them with you.

Who on the current Toronto staff has the most career complete games?

Dana Eveland and Scott Downs, naturally. They both have one, and neither came with the Jays, of course. Three guys currently on the DL can beat that: McGowan has 3, Litsch and Richmond both have 2 - but they're on the DL.

Roy Halladay has thrown the last 9 complete games by Toronto pitchers. Who was the last Toronto pitcher other than Halladay to go the distance?

That was Scott Richmond, last May.

The fewest complete games ever thrown by a Toronto staff was 6 back in 1990, Cito Gaston's first full season as the manager. Todd Stottlemyre had 4, Dave Stieb had 2. (This mark was matched by the Season in Hell staff of 2004.)  Will they come in under that mark this season?

I say they will.

Who will be the next Toronto pitcher to toss a CG?

I say Ricky...

Week 4 - Tough Stretch Ahead! | 48 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
rpriske - Monday, May 03 2010 @ 09:03 AM EDT (#214482) #

Want an unpopular opinion?

 

When EE comes back they should send Snider down.

Mike Green - Monday, May 03 2010 @ 09:11 AM EDT (#214483) #
Aaron Hill has not shown good plate control prior to this season in the major leagues, but it was a feature of his minor league and collegiate career.  I am reasonably sure that it is here to stay. 

The next CG will be thrown by Brett Cecil, in Cleveland, sometime in the far-off distant future. 

TamRa - Monday, May 03 2010 @ 09:39 AM EDT (#214486) #
Travis Snider has an OPS+ of 63

Randy Ruiz has a -11

And Ruiz is superfolous defensively. Can't see why anyone should think we need to sacrifice Snider on the alter of Ruiz.



allcanadian34 - Monday, May 03 2010 @ 10:53 AM EDT (#214489) #

I vote Brandon Morrow for the next Jay to throw a complete game.  Now that he's worked the rust off after his preseason injury, he's been very solid in his last 3 starts.  Though his WHIP has been less than impressive, he has fanned batters at a rate of 11.84/9 IP and as he continues to round into form, I see a big strikeout day in his future where he can keep his pitch count down and go the distance. 

 

Matthew E - Monday, May 03 2010 @ 11:11 AM EDT (#214490) #
It took me until now to realize that, suddenly, the Jays have two guys on the roster named Lewis, after having started out with none.
uglyone - Monday, May 03 2010 @ 11:24 AM EDT (#214492) #

rotoworld's most recent blurb on EE features a Cito quote to the effect of: "bautista has to be in there, but whether LF will be Lewis or Snider we're not sure".

I can't think that Bautista has done so much in so little time under Cito that the guy is really a guaranteed starter in Cito's head. Or I hope not.

I like Jose and all, but if his recent slump isn't a slump, and it's just him regressing to career norms v. RHP, and Lewis keeps rounding into form, it'd be just plain silly if we see Lewis on the bench and a slumping Jose forced back into that already awkward "fit" of him as our leadoff hitter....especially v. RHP.

Personally, when you have two 29 year old fringe MLBers who both have blatant RHP/LHP splits, neither of whom are young enough to expect serious improvement in those splits, I would think that is the definition of the perfect opportunity for a strict platoon, especially if we're dedicated to keeping Snider on the MLB roster this year.

Of course, unless that BABIP "luck" starts turning for Snider pretty quickly, he's obviously the guy that least deserves a starting spot.

 

Matthew E - Monday, May 03 2010 @ 11:37 AM EDT (#214493) #

Trivia question for everyone:

Josh Roenicke:Rommie Lewis::Tim Crabtree:???

Mike Green - Monday, May 03 2010 @ 11:44 AM EDT (#214494) #
There are certain names which send a twitch to my spine. Rommie makes the list.  Why couldn't his parents have given him a non-controversial name like Bob, Otis, Bubba or Muhammad?
bpoz - Monday, May 03 2010 @ 11:55 AM EDT (#214496) #
I remember Tim Crabtree 6'3" very good arm,high draft pick 3rd round. Injuries I think got him. WE have so many arms BUT can never have enough pitching?
christaylor - Monday, May 03 2010 @ 12:51 PM EDT (#214501) #
"Will they come in under that mark this season? I say they will."

I would say, "I hope so." given the number of tender arms in the rotation -- but the pen it just seems... well... it just seems like a WIP which I was not of the opinion it would be prior to the season.

On the @BOS series: this team still baffles me, but in a good way, I guess... I took the scores in the Red Sox series to be a good sign (probably a common opinion), in that this team could play on the same field as a team touted for greatness prior to the season. I'm curious to know if the same holds in their house -- I'm not too concerned about the Jays winning/losing those games.

Am I wrong in believing that the last few JP teams were lousy on the road, it may not hold up in the splits, but for some reason I remember things being more lopsided than one would expect (even given an expectation of a small away field disadvantage)?
John Northey - Monday, May 03 2010 @ 01:11 PM EDT (#214502) #
Just remember, no matter how frustrating it may be this year it won't hit what I'm sure Boston fans are feeling right now, being 4th in the AL East on May 3rd (and on the morning of the 4th for certain). The Jays are a game and 1/2 ahead of the Red Sox right now, and just as far from 1st as they are from last in the division (5 1/2 games). Keep that up and a lot of people would say 'very good for a rebuilding season'.

In the tight AL West the Jays would be just 1/2 a game out of first right now. Top to bottom out there is just 2 games. The NL East is almost as tight at 3 1/2 from top to bottom, 1 1/2 from 1st to 4th.

Philly, despite Halladay (4 walks in 6 starts - the NL is a AAAA league isn't it?), has just a small lead. Why? The 3 other guys with 5+ starts have ERA+'s of 83-77-58. I'm sure that'll improve though. It'll be interesting to watch the team that wants a Halladay start followed by 4 days of rain.
Spookie Wookie - Monday, May 03 2010 @ 01:50 PM EDT (#214504) #
Josh Roenicke:Rommie Lewis::Tim Crabtree:Ricardo Jordan

Had to look it up.. Matthew if you came up with that question off the top of your head you have a really great memory.
Matthew E - Monday, May 03 2010 @ 01:57 PM EDT (#214505) #
Ricardo Jordan is correct!

Yes, it was off the top of my head. The great memory only works for some things, though.

subculture - Monday, May 03 2010 @ 02:25 PM EDT (#214509) #

Has anyone previously brought-up or discussed what I can only term the "Halladay effect" ?

After the trade, I remember thinking to myself these related thoughts:

1) Is it possible Halladay's departure inspires/forces other Jays pitchers to step up their game (work harder, sense an oppty to flourish and be the man, be easily underestimated as a staff) and improve their results?  Kind of like the 'Ewing' effect where the Knicks always played better with him on the injury list.

2) Is it possible that the rest of the Phillie's rotation suffers a drop-off, as they realize they now have a true #1 to pick-up the slack, and also that wow this guy is so much better than me, I don't think I can ever be that good, is he thinking poorly of my work ethic, oops I gave up another homer?

Matthew E - Monday, May 03 2010 @ 02:35 PM EDT (#214510) #

I think you can come up with a rationalization for any outcome. (I don't mean you personally.) If the Jays' starters this year were doing badly, we could say, look, they're going to pieces without Halladay there to stabilize the rotation. If the Phillies were pitching the lights out this year we could say, look what they can accomplish with Halladay's example in front of them. I think any kind of Halladay effect, in either direction, on either team, would be minor and lost in noise. Although it might not seem like that to the people involved.

Timbuck2 - Monday, May 03 2010 @ 03:35 PM EDT (#214515) #
subculture:

I myself have been musing over the possibility of a "Halladay" effect for a while now.  The problem I have with your theory is that you have essential the same effect working in reverse for Philly.  Different things affect people different ways so I believe it would be foolhardy to paint both teams with the same brush.

This is the way I am seeing it so far this year:

Toronto:  The pitching staff isn't exceeding beyond it's capabilities - it's just living up to it's potential.  I don't see them performing above and beyond their capabilities (except maybe for Eveland over the first few starts) because when Halladay was heading the rotation everyone else got lost in his shadow.  He was the 'landmark' of the staff and it was hard for anyone to look at the pitchers we ran out there without noting Halladay at the front.  Now that he's gone the young guns have a chance to shine without unfair comparisons to dear old Doc.  Not to say that he has no influence over the staff - the advice he's given the Jays pitchers (backed up with his own awesome results) over the years seem to have had a real impact up and down the organization.  An good example of this (other than the 'pitch to contact' philosophy that everyone seems on board with) is the fact everyone seems to either A) Employ a Cutter as part of thier pitching arsenal.  (I'd never heard of the pitch until Doc made it a household term in Toronto) or B) have a story of trying to use learn how to throw that pitch.

Philly:  Halladay's shadow isn't going to cover all the bright lights on this team.  They've already proven that they can shine no matter who's shadow they may fall under.  When Doc joined them he became one of the collection of established 'bright lights' the organization runs out there everyday.  I attribute their early season struggles (if you can call a 14-10, first in their division record struggling) as just that - early season struggles.  They should be fine over the course of the season.  The only real influence I can see that Doc may have this year over the rest of the team is if the injury bug follows him to Philly and causes them to miss the playoffs.  Maybe it's Halladay's curse that has affected the Jays over the years instead of JP's.....
uglyone - Monday, May 03 2010 @ 03:52 PM EDT (#214517) #

The only plausible rationale for that kind of Halladay Effect could only be that maybe, just maybe, he flat out made the other young pitchers nervous, and now with him not there the pressure is reduced somewhat and they can relax a bit, which might put them in more of a comfort zone.

Of course, this Halladay Effect doesn't explain why Marcum, McGowan, and Litsch all had their arms blow up on them, which is likely a better explanation for the "failure" of our recent young pitching. Especially considering Romero and Litsch and Marcum and McGown never had much of a problem pitching well around Halladay when they were, you know, healthy.

92-93 - Monday, May 03 2010 @ 05:40 PM EDT (#214519) #

There are certain names which send a twitch to my spine. Rommie makes the list.

I found it insulting to hear the broadcast teams relay the story of how Lewis is named after a decorated Nazi war general, regardless of the positive light history tends to view Rommel in. It bothers me to see Griffin & Elliot referring to him as the "Desert Fox", and I can only wonder if they'd be all over the origin of his given name if it was something like "Himmie".

Magpie - Monday, May 03 2010 @ 05:49 PM EDT (#214520) #
I wasn't insulted to hear the story - it's an unusual name, and I was certainly curious about it.

However - while I recognize that the victorious side often likes to single out someone from the defeated foe as worthy of respect (while the Nazis made that extremely difficult Rommel's not the worst candidate) - I gotta mind, it's baffling to me that someone would name their child after him. But someone did.
Magpie - Monday, May 03 2010 @ 05:58 PM EDT (#214524) #
Am I wrong in believing that the last few JP teams were lousy on the road

Put it this way - you're right more often than you're wrong.

The normal home-road split, which has remained fairly constant for about 100 years, is .80 - the home teams wins 54% of the team, and the road team wins 46% of the time. So here are the last five Toronto teams:

2009 - .543 / .383
2008 - .580 / .481
2007 - .605 / .420
2006 - .617 / .457
2005 - .531 / .457

As you can see, the 2005 and 2008 teams had reasonably normal home-road splits, but the 2006, 2007, and 2009 teams did not. Whether they were surprisingly poor on the road, or unexpectedly good at home - well, I'd have to look at the Pythag  expectations for actual runs scored and allowed. Which I've done, natch - but that's all in the Big Honking Database, which is on my other computer.
Spifficus - Monday, May 03 2010 @ 09:26 PM EDT (#214528) #

The next CG will be thrown by Brett Cecil, in Cleveland, sometime in the far-off distant future.

Sooo... uhh... That was kind of close.

Second immense positive - Snider had a special sound in his bat tonight. That homer had one of the lowest trajectories I've ever seen.

Dave Till - Monday, May 03 2010 @ 10:07 PM EDT (#214530) #
The one thing that struck me about Snider this year was that he has been drawing walks. Lots of them - he's third on the team in BBs, and has the best walk per at bat rate.

After tonight's game, it would be insane to not give Snider continued playing time. He's starting to get it. That home run went out of there in a considerable hurry.

And also note: Snider's OBP is now (I believe) higher than Encarnacion's was when he went out.
Mike Green - Monday, May 03 2010 @ 10:08 PM EDT (#214531) #
Yeah.  Cecil's rhythm was excellent for most of the game until he tired.  As Buck said, he has a better idea of what he is doing out there than last year, and that allows him to adjust a bit when he's tired (the changeups to Kearns in the 7th inning after the two walks were a good example of that).  I am very optimistic about his ability to keep it going.

Snider's HR did have a very low trajectory.  He is very, very strong.  The lowest trajectory on a homer I've ever seen was a ball that Dave Parker hit out to right-center on a low line drive like Snider's in the late 70s. 

92-93 - Monday, May 03 2010 @ 11:09 PM EDT (#214533) #

Snider's roper reminded me of some of the HRs Albert Pujols sends out to the seats in left-centre in Busch, when he absolutely smokes a line drive.

Cecil made my BBFL team proud tonight, even with the 2 7th inning walks. I would have expected the umpire to be a wee bit more gracious on his strike zone in the latter third of a perfect game; a couple of the pitches to Grady/Choo could easily have been called strikes.

ComebyDeanChance - Tuesday, May 04 2010 @ 12:25 AM EDT (#214534) #
AA has to be buying lottery tickets with the way his moves have worked out so far. The Gregg and Gonzales moves were particularly kvetched about and so far are coming up roses. Buck's slugging over .500.

AGon's option at this point looks valuable. Gregg looks like he'll have value in the trade market if they decide to go that way at the break. The catching's been far from spectacular (Buck's three-homer game aside) but major league.

It would have been hard to imagine at the outset of the season that even with Frasor's blown saves and the bullpen's 8th inning meltdowns, Overbay hitting next to nothing, Snider's terrible start, Hill's, EE's and Tallet's injuries, this team would be over .500 today.

Hill has credited Cito Gaston with his greater patience at the plate, and obviously Bautista would be the same. At the same time I think we lead the majors tonight in home runs, quite a feat with the NYY playing in a wind tunnel.

There may not be near the talent here that exist in Tampa/NY and Boston, but right now this looks like a well-run team.

The one downside for AA has to be Overbay's performance. No doubt the organization hoped that with enough PA's he might make Type A, and with a small miracle, Bautista as well (however doubtful it would be that a team would give up a first for either). Both will continue to get the PA's needed to qualify there, but right now it's looking like Bautista will end up a B and worse, Overbay is going to have to improve considerably to make it to B.

uglyone - Tuesday, May 04 2010 @ 12:58 AM EDT (#214536) #
I keep hearing that there's "nowhere near the talent here as in Tampa".

I wonder.

pure talentwise.  roughly from best to worst. where's this massive talent gap I keep hearing about?

Lind - Longoria
Wells - Pena
Hill - Zobrist
Encarnacion - Crawford
Overbay - Burrell
Snider - Upton
Gonzo - Bartlett
Buck - Shoppach
Bautista/Lewis - Brignac/Rodriguz
*Wallace - Jennings

.
Romero - Garza
Marcum - Shields
Cecil - Price
Morrow - Davis
Rzep  - Niemann
* Drabek/Mills - Hellickson

Gregg - Soriano
Downs - Howell
Frasor - Wheeler
Janssen - Balfour
Roenicke - Choate
Camp - Cormier
Tallet - Sonnanstine


Sure there's more proven performance on that Rays squad (although last year's performance from guys like Zobrist and Bartlett are looking more and more anomalous with every game), but In terms of pure talent, I'm not sure I see this massive gap that everyone keeps talking about.

Lind had a year last year better than anything Longo's done yet. Pena is usually better than Wells, but we all know that pure talentwise they match up, and when Wells is in one of his good years he's every bit as good, if not better. I know people will go on about the Crawford-EE comparisons but the truth is their career numbers are pretty damn similar, and Crawford had a bad year in 2008 even worse than EE's 2009 season. Last year Zobrist and Bartlett would have won those matchups handily, but I'm not sure anyone is counting on those two repeating those kinds of seasons this year. And I think I'm actually insulting Snider by comparing him only to Upton, to be honest.

And the starting pitching - the Rays are more proven, but I'll put up those Jays' pitchers and their minor and major league numbers against their Rays' counterparts there any day.

The Jays aren't quite as complete a team as the Rays are at this point, and certainly aren't as proven, but I just don't buy that there's this unmatchable talent gap between the two squads.


China fan - Tuesday, May 04 2010 @ 06:06 AM EDT (#214541) #
Cecil threw 111 pitches last night.  If this had happened a year ago, or two years ago, the Box would have been filled with comments from people alleging that Gaston is abusing his young pitchers, damaging their arms, heightening their risk of long-term injury, etc.   But this time, not a whisper of comment.  Are people finally accepting that the pitch count is not the single defining barometer of a pitcher's future health?  Or do the critics still hold firm (but silently) to their views?
China fan - Tuesday, May 04 2010 @ 06:58 AM EDT (#214542) #

Also, I would like to make the following comment (which admittedly I might be unable to make later in the season):   For the second year in a row, the Jays have a better shortstop than the Red Sox.  But I guess that shouldn't be surprising, since the same two individuals are involved, right?

I wonder if Theo Epstein is slapping his forehead and going "D'oh!"

And I wonder if any credit should go to Gaston and the Jays hitting coaches.  I haven't seen any commentary on this, but did they spot something in Gonzalez that they improved?  When the slugging improves so dramatically, it's hard to dismiss ALL of it as a complete fluke.  Maybe it is a fluke, of course.  I'm just wondering.

AWeb - Tuesday, May 04 2010 @ 07:31 AM EDT (#214543) #
pure talentwise. ... where's this massive talent gap I keep hearing about?

Defense. Even if the offensive talent matches up pretty well, and it is closer than I thought, the defense isn't close. So far this year the Jays have been middling according to UZR, which would seem to be about the ceiling for this club defensively, as there a lot of players with "average" as an upside (Wells, Snider, whoever is on 3B, . Nothing wrong with that, by the way, not every player can be above average. But Tampa Bay is atop the majors in UZR, which is consistent with their history. It will make their pitches look better and enable them to use less bullpen innings, all else being equal.

Because of defense and position, Lind can "only" be 3-5 wins better than average. Longoria can be 2-3 wins better than that because of defense. Position by position, you'd be hard pressed to find a large advantage for the Jays in the field.

Toronto is a team with average at best defense, slightly above average at best offense, and above average (at best, not sure how many innings the starters can can throw this year) pitching. Cue the "stupid AL East" refrain, since that's enough to contend occasionally in other places.
Gerry - Tuesday, May 04 2010 @ 09:00 AM EDT (#214544) #

China Fan:

While pitch counts are important, stressful situations are important too.  If a pitcher has a very long inning(s), or a pressure filled inning where he has to reach back and try to throw the ball extra hard, that is as bad as pitch counts.

Last night Cecil cruised until the seventh so although his pitch count was high he was only stressed once, in the seventh.

AWeb - Tuesday, May 04 2010 @ 09:23 AM EDT (#214545) #
I didn't see it live, but after the comments here on Snider's HR yesterday, I checked out hittrackeronline.com, and it turned out to be the lowest trajectory HR this year (17.4 degrees up, would have been the lowest all 2009 as well), and the 4th hardest hit (speed off bat) at 119.7mph. Snider is hitting his HR's very very hard so far - 111mph off his bat compared to an average of 104mph for the league. Snider also has one of the highest trajectory HR's this year. His OPS+ is up to 81 now...that's approaching reasonable with a .167 BA despite hitting line drives 27% of the time (when he doesn't strikeout) and improving plate discipline. Throw in average defense, and he's having a secretly good year, development-wise, even if his inevitable HoF counting numbers (what, too soon?) are suffering a bit.
China fan - Tuesday, May 04 2010 @ 09:54 AM EDT (#214547) #

Gerry, I agree with you, of course.  It's the pitch-count-obsessives who don't seem able to look past the raw number.

christaylor - Tuesday, May 04 2010 @ 10:09 AM EDT (#214548) #
"It would have been hard to imagine at the outset of the season ... [that] this team would be over .500 today. "

A few of us were imagining it. Too early to gloat, but taking the over on 71 wins looks like an excellent play with a month down.
christaylor - Tuesday, May 04 2010 @ 10:24 AM EDT (#214549) #
Thanks, Magpie.

I doubt this would hold but is there evidence that the dome has conferred an lopsided home/road split since it opened? Or since actual domes have become rare?

Did Halladay pitch more often at home than on the road during 05-09?
uglyone - Tuesday, May 04 2010 @ 11:20 AM EDT (#214553) #

Defense. Even if the offensive talent matches up pretty well, and it is closer than I thought, the defense isn't close.

Well, that's good news then, because  if the major difference between us and what people are calling the unstoppably talented best team in the world is defense (and, to be honest, mainly just outfield defense)....well, I'm thinking that the talent on this Jays' squad may be a little better than most people gave them credit for.

and what are the major defensive advantages for the Rays if we get specific? I'd guess that the Jays have the advantage at 1B, the Rays at 3B....and I guess the Rays at all 3 outfield positions...although, to be honest, I'm not exactly overwhelmed by the defensive abilities of Crawford in left (especially compared to a guy like Lewis), or Kapler/Zobrist in right.

 

Spifficus - Tuesday, May 04 2010 @ 12:11 PM EDT (#214556) #

I'm not exactly overwhelmed by the defensive abilities of Crawford in left (especially compared to a guy like Lewis)

I am. Great jumps plus elite speed equals a tonne of turf covered. On defense alone, there's a 10 win difference between the two teams (going by UZR), and that gap isn't shrinking particularly quickly. Gonzalez and Lewis were added, but Rolen's 2/3 of a year was replaced with EE. Heck. The difference between EE and Longoria is 30 runs saved alone. Watching them play, I'd believe it.

AWeb - Tuesday, May 04 2010 @ 12:38 PM EDT (#214557) #
The defensive advantages can't be looked at as a simple which player is better, then count type of thing. As already mentioned, Longoria is hugely better at third than whoever the Jays put there. Overbay might be better at first, but it's still first base - the least important infield position by a mile. And the Rays have a great outfield defense, according to most metrics, in all three places. Sort of like the Wells/Rios/Johnson "three centrefielders" outfield the Jays had a few years ago. The Jays now have a bad CF flanked by average (at best) to bad corner guys. The Jays' advantages would show up at SS and 2B, but aren't likely so large as to nearly offset those of the Rays.

It's no small thing to have a team filled with good hitters who are also above average fielders like the Rays have.  If the Jays are going to lack in one of the three areas (hitting, pitching, defense), obviously defense is the "best", but it's how the Rays beat out the Yankees in 2008, when the Yankees defense was awful.
uglyone - Tuesday, May 04 2010 @ 12:40 PM EDT (#214558) #
just to be clear - who's their 3rd centrefielder? Zobrist? Kapler?
James W - Tuesday, May 04 2010 @ 01:01 PM EDT (#214562) #
Desmond Jennings, down in triple-A. But otherwise, yes, Zobrist could fill in there if necessary.
uglyone - Tuesday, May 04 2010 @ 01:09 PM EDT (#214563) #

So, at the moment, it's second baseman Zobrist  and Gabe Kapler providing that elite defense in RF.

AWeb - Tuesday, May 04 2010 @ 02:15 PM EDT (#214572) #
I said it was like the Jays recent three centrefielder outfield, not the same as it; referring to general defensive level, not particular players. Zobrist is likely not a CF in waiting, although his defense seems to rate very well everywhere he plays. Sarcasm aside, yes, second baseman Ben Zobrist is providing elite defense in RF- it is probably a small sample size figment at this point (81 games in RF), but his UZR/150 games is blindingly good at 36.5. That's almost certainly unsustainable, since no one recently has a UZR in RF for a full season above the mid-20s (Ichiro and Rios in their best years), but yeah....even a healthy regression to the mean leaves him as an elite RF.

Anyway...the point is that the Rays OF defense is awesome, second-best last year to the Mariners, and near the top of the league again this year. The Jays OF defense was rated worst last year by UZR, and while unlikely to be that bad again, is below average again.
uglyone - Tuesday, May 04 2010 @ 02:29 PM EDT (#214573) #
Hey, on that note, Lubanski was drafted as a CF with base-stealing speed....has he really filled out so much that he's viewed strictly as LF material now? can that kid play RF at all?
Timbuck2 - Tuesday, May 04 2010 @ 03:26 PM EDT (#214578) #
I guess it's still the in thing to bash Vernon's defence here on da Box? 

I was down on him last year just like most everyone else but this year he has continued to surprise me both with the wood and the leather.  I've actually had the chance to watch most games this year and he really is looking much better this year.  I have yet to see an obvious case (actually none that come to mind) where VW didn't get to a ball he should have gotten.  He really looks like he's getting to more balls than he did last year.  At least that's what my 20/15 eyesight is telling me.  They may not be as good as Adeiny Hechavarria's eyes but they've served me well :)

subculture - Tuesday, May 04 2010 @ 03:49 PM EDT (#214580) #

Completely agree.

Last year imo his rating was hurt by at least 6 balls that while not easy to catch, were ones that he would normally handle but bounced off his glove.  This year he seems in better shape, and has closed really well on a few balls that looked like they might drop.

subculture - Tuesday, May 04 2010 @ 03:59 PM EDT (#214582) #

Yeah I was just throwing the idea out there, of a 'Halladay effect', b/c it seems like a big enough loss/gain to the respective teams where the impact may be psychological, as well as the obvious physical effect of losing/gaining such an elite starter.

There are personal dynamics in every social structure, and sometimes people thrive when they aren't expected to, and vice-versa, but one thing that strikes me at true is that nature abhors a vacuum.. 

 

Mike Green - Tuesday, May 04 2010 @ 05:02 PM EDT (#214587) #
Wells had very poor defensive statistics in both 2008 and 2009.  So far in limited action in 2010, the metrics are mixed with the Dewan DRS positive for the first time in years.  I said last year that he might be at -15 instead of the -20 suggested by the statistics.  From my observation, he's probably still in the -10 to -15 range.  It's hard for a big man to be an average defensive centerfielder at age 30. 
92-93 - Tuesday, May 04 2010 @ 05:28 PM EDT (#214589) #

If Wells keeps up this early season defense and still rates as a gigantic negative with UZR at the end of the year I will officially kick UZR to the curb IMO. There hasn't been one ball the entire year where I thought a better defensive CF makes that play, and I've been the first one to jump on Vernon's fieldng the last few years. Frankly, I have no idea how the # could be a negative at this point, even once you consider the sample size alert.

uglyone - Tuesday, May 04 2010 @ 05:36 PM EDT (#214590) #

Not sure exactly how the current sample size is affected by one or two plays, but I have an inkling that that one game vs. LA, where Matsui hit two rockets to LCF when Wells was shading fairly strongly to RCF and couldn't track them down might be hurting him right now. Not sure exactly how UZR determines zones but I could see Wells getting screwed on those two plays.

Other than that, though, I agree - he's tracked down everything near him. I'm a little surprised at the UZR rating as well.

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