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Our farm boys did not do us that proud on Saturday despite wins by the GCL Blue Jays and the Lugnuts.  Las Vegas and Auburn were low producers and New Hampshire was a no producer in runs.  To their credit, the Fisher Cats and the Doubledays have a share of the division lead in their respective league standings

Las Vegas 1  Fresno 8


The 51s pitching allowed 7 hits and 8 runs in their loss to Fresno in front of 9,064 Grizzlie fans.  Losing Las Vegas pitcher Luis Perez (1-1) was peppered for 9 hits including an HR and 6 runs in his 5.2 innings of work.


Edwin Encarncion (E5)  was 2E on the evening, including a fielding muff in the bottom of the 2nd that was followed by a Fresno HR which scored one of the 2 unearned runs for the Grizzlies.  E5 has had 3E’s since he joined the 51s 4 games ago.  Encarncion has hit 6 for 16 since joining the 51s this week.


Las Vegas’ only run was on a solo round tripper by Mike McCoy.  Brett Wallace and Edwin Encarncion each had two hits.  Aaron Matthews and Encarncion each pounded doubles.


New Hampshire 0  Trenton 2


There was a pitching dual in Trenton and the Fisher Cats came up on the short end of the contest with no runs despite 8 hits on the evening in front of 6,753 Thunder home field fans.  Loosing pitcher B.J. LaMura (1-2) turned in a respectable outing allowing only two hits in 4 innings while allowing Trenton’s 2 runs.


Jonathan Diaz and Brian Jeroloman each had 2 hit games and David Cooper smacked the game’s only extra base hit, a double.  Darin Mastroianni, Eric Thames, and BC native Shawn Bowman eached chipped in a single. 


Dunedin 6  Daytona 8


Evan Crawford (0-1), who was promoted yesterday from Lansing, suffered the loss, pitching only one inning but giving up 4 runs on 4 hits and 2 BB.  Chuck Huggins impressed the 657 Dunedin fans in attendance with just 3 earned runs on 6 hits in his 6 innings of work.  He had 1 K and 1 BB while allowing only one single in his starting effort.  Daytona had 11 hits on the evening against Blue Jays pitching.


Moses Sierra, just activated from the DL, got his first hit of the 2010 season and made it count.  His 8th inning 3 run HR scored Travis d’Arnaud and Mike McDade who had walked and singled respectively.  The baby Jays’ late inning rally was snuffed out when Adeiny Hechavarria (1 for 4 with 1 run scored, BA .188) sharply lined in to a double play to the pitcher who threw to first to catch Brad McElroy.   Slumping A-Hech had only his second hit in his last 35 AB during the last 10 games.


Tyler Pastornicky hit 2 doubles, and Mike McDade had 3 hits, one a double.  Brian Van Kirk added a single.


Lansing 4  Dayton 1


The Lugnuts hosted 8,715 hometown fans on a balmy Lansing summer night.  They didn’t disappoint and recorded one of the Toronto farm system’s only two wins today .  Ryan Tepera got the win and pitched 7 innings of 4 hit 0 run baseball with 4 K’s in his effort.


Lugnut bats produced a total of 8 hits including two hits each by Sean Ochinko and Kenny Wilson.  Ochinko and Wilson each had 1 double. Justin Jackson, Brad Glenn, Kevin Nolan and each singled in Lansing’s winning effort.  Eric Eiland tripled and Ochinko, Wilson, Glenn and Nolan provided 1 RBI each.  


Auburn 1  Mahoning Valley 12


965 Auburn fans saw their home team soundly upended by Mahoning Valley, despite starting pitcher Sam Strickland delivering on five good innings with just 3 hits, 3 runs (0 earned), and 3 K’s.  Subsequent Auburn pitchers (Outman, Griffith, and Hernandez) gave up 9 more runs (7 earned) and 13 more hits with 4 K’s.  Five unearned runs were tallied against the Doubledays who committed 3 errors in the field.


Offensively, Auburn managed only 1 run with an RBI double by Gustavo Pierre.  Knecht, McQuail and Aponte each had 2 hits while Brisker, Dominguez, and Nuzzo hit singles, and Durham added a double.


GCL Jays 6 GCL Tigers 2


The rookie Jays were treated to 4 innings of 3 hit, 4 strikeout pitching by starter Jose Vargas.  Vargas and reliever Michael Kelly each allowed three hits from Tigers’ bats.  Jays winning pitcher Chris Enourato (1-0) managed 3 strike outs in two hitless innings pitched.  Jays closer Brandon Berl struck out 2 finishing up in the 9th. 


The rookie Jays started their 6 run, 11 hit victory with a double by Michael Crouse and a single by Andy Fermin in the 2nd inning.   Crouse scored on a fielder’s choice.  A four run 7th inning offensive burst began with an Andy Fermin single, a Carlos Ramierez single and a walk to Ronald Melendez.  Christopher Hawkins smashed a three run triple and Jacob Marisnick doubled in Hawkins for the 4th run of the inning.  The Jays added one more insurance run in the 8th inning when Michael Crouse walked and Andy Fermin singled.  Crouse scored when Carlos Ramirez was hit by a pitch.


Multi – hit performances included Andy Fermin with 4 hits, Christopher Hawkins with 3 hits and Jacob Marisnick with 2 hits.  Today’s win improved the Rookie Jays 2010 record to 3 wins in 7 outings.



Three Stars

3rd star – Christopher Hawkins- GCL Jays (3 hits, triple, 3 RBI)
2nd star – Moses Sierra  (HR, 3 RBI)
1st star – Mike McDade (3 hits, 1 2B, 2 RBI)


Farm Boys Can Only Manage 2 for 5 on Saturday | 59 comments | Create New Account
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fredlewis3 - Sunday, June 27 2010 @ 09:57 AM EDT (#217603) #
How did Huggins look to you? It seems his strike outs are way down from earlier in the season....he still has the lowest ERA in the FSL....I am not sure why the league doesnt recognize his consideration of all star or pitcher of the week honors...though he has had a couple ruff outings...
Gerry - Sunday, June 27 2010 @ 04:24 PM EDT (#217608) #
Adeiny Hechavarria hit his first home run today, one of two hits for him, off Ryan Madson who is on a rehab assignement.
ComebyDeanChance - Sunday, June 27 2010 @ 05:43 PM EDT (#217610) #
Here's Brett Wallace's numbers at AAA, in a hitter haven in a hitter's league. Sorry about the failure to keep the column clean. It's a .792 OPS in LV vs. righties. I think the Jays are going to need a different first baseman next year.

vs Right BA .256 AB 211 . OBP .328 SLG.464 OPS.792
Spifficus - Sunday, June 27 2010 @ 06:17 PM EDT (#217611) #
As meh as his performance against RHP has been, his performance against lefties has continued to be awesome (and in line with career norms). Add in that he has shown that his power is to all fields, a good line drive rate, and K/BB rates within norms, and I personally think he hasn't done anything to really hurt his prospect status.
Gerry - Sunday, June 27 2010 @ 07:05 PM EDT (#217612) #

Bob Elliott had a story earlier this week that suggested Wallace was doing to much practice on his first base defense.  Once they backed off on the amount of that work his hitting picked up again.

Wallace's "average" hitting is even more reason to get him up to Toronto this season so they can evaluate his hitting and whether he can be the first baseman next season.  It was also interesting to see the Jays break out plan B, Adam Lind, at first base this week.

Hodgie - Monday, June 28 2010 @ 12:28 AM EDT (#217613) #

I know I shouldn't be surprised by anything Tim Collins does, however his last 10 appearances have been something to behold:

12 IP, 2 H, 0 R , 1 BB, 21 K

As impressive as the strikeouts are, Collins has also drastically reduced his walk rates over the last couple of months. Consider that in 28 innings in May and June he has walked 7 batters (2.25 BB/9), much lower than his career rate (4 BB/9) to date. And he is still only 20.......

John Northey - Monday, June 28 2010 @ 12:31 AM EDT (#217614) #
Looks like being told the closer's job is open got Collins going like wildfire. A callup to AAA should be coming soon as that past 10 games stat is just WOW.
brent - Monday, June 28 2010 @ 02:20 AM EDT (#217615) #

If anyone is really up on 40-Man roster rules, could they answer whether the Jays (or when)  will have problems protecting the talent coming through the pipe?

I would really appreciate it ^ ^ .


brent - Monday, June 28 2010 @ 02:41 AM EDT (#217616) #
How good do those contracts for Hill and Lind look now with all of those option years? Wow, I'm glad they haven't guaranteed large dollars. Thank goodness BJ Ryan and Halladay will be off the books in three months. Just 4 more years and 100 million give or take left on Vernon's contract.
TamRa - Monday, June 28 2010 @ 03:40 AM EDT (#217617) #
If the Jays really stuck with the development plan and started 2011 with Wallace at 1B, McCoy at SS, JPA catching and Emaus at 3B...let the free agent relievers move on...I make their Payroll next season to be in the low-to-mid 50's

that being the case - and the fact that could easily afford over twice that if it made sense - i don't give the tiniest concern to how much of that goes to Wells.

Kelekin - Monday, June 28 2010 @ 06:24 AM EDT (#217619) #
Consider -

Vernon Wells - 26.6M
Aaron Hill - 5.0M
Adam Lind - 5.2M
John McDonald - 1.5M

Arb Eligible - Bautista, Camp, Tallet, Accardo, Marcum, Janssen

I think our team's payroll is going to end up at 62M or so.  Sadly, Wells making 25M for four more seasons is really unfortunate.  Imagine how many high ceiling draft picks could be signed for that money! =)

greenfrog - Monday, June 28 2010 @ 06:47 AM EDT (#217620) #
The Jays' payroll situation could certainly be worse. In any case, at 285/339/574, Wells is far and away exceeding expectations and is arguably earning his salary this year. Heck, another year like this one and another team might actually be willing to trade for him.

Arencibia is currently hitting 303/353/602 (358/391/708 away from home), and is riding a 409/469/841 streak over his last ten games. For a plus defender at a premium position, that's about as good as it gets. Guess that off-season Lasik eye surgery and conditioning program were a good idea. He sort of reminds me of Romero in a way--finally putting it all together in his mid-20s.
John Northey - Monday, June 28 2010 @ 09:50 AM EDT (#217623) #
Checking Cot's Contracts the actual out of pocket money for Rogers for Wells is...
2011: $23 million
2012-2014: $21 million per year

The higher figure is mixing in bonus' which were set up so Rogers was out of pocket about $10 mil in year one & two, and $20 mil this year. I'm sure there were accounting reasons for doing it this way.

After this year the Jays really clear out payroll though as the following fall off the books...
BJ Ryan: $10 mil
Overbay: $7 mil
Halladay: $6 mil
Downs: $4 mil (if not resigned)
Plus a few more million if Frasor ($2.65), Gregg ($2.75), Tallet ($2) and others go.

So, the locks to come off are R/O/H = $23 million with another $10+ in bullpen expenses open to negotiation.

Going up are...
Hill: by $1 mil
Bautista: unknown, just at $2.4 and entering last year of arbitration
Buck: unknown, free agent
Gregg: Up to $2.5 million
Lind: $4 mil
Camp, Marcum, Janssen, Tallet: Unknown (arbitration)

The big costs would be Marcum and Bautista I suspect, but nowhere near the $20+ that comes off the books. This years payroll is $78.6 million so that pushes it down to about $58 plus around $10 for Marcum/Bautista raises and a couple more to cover off other raises putting it around $70 million. The Jays thus, in 2011, have room to add pretty much any free agent they wish as our dollar is high and only 4 times since 2000 has the payroll been lower than $70 million (2000, 2003-2005). My earlier math suggested the Jays can afford up to $125 million (based on increased attendance from a contender and TV ratings which are key for the Jays value to Rogers) thus this winter could be very interesting indeed.

I guess if the Jays lost their minds (and a few others did too) they could chase Rivera, Jeter, and Varitek thus taking all the 'veteran presence' from the top teams in the division but that would be a bit insane and ain't gonna happen (although Rivera sure would be nice right now).
John Northey - Monday, June 28 2010 @ 01:36 PM EDT (#217624) #
Interesting new thing I just noticed at Baseball Reference - how acquired. Found it in the WAR leaders.

For the pitchers on the Jays this season (including guys demoted or released) we see 4 free agents (2.0 WAR), 1 purchased (-0.1 WAR), 5 traded (-0.1 WAR), 1 conditional deal (-0.9 WAR via Eveland), and 6 amateur drafts (6.0 WAR). For hitters it is 8 free agents (4.5 WAR), 4 traded (4.2 WAR), 4 amateur drafts (1 WAR), and 2 waivers (0.1 WAR).

Note: Eveland and Ruiz (-0.4) are the only guys worse than -0.1
Gerry - Monday, June 28 2010 @ 01:42 PM EDT (#217625) #

Jeff Blair has an interesting column today. 

He starts by discussing Adam lind at first base:

"It won’t be the last time this season Blue Jays fans see him in the position he played in college because, as one Blue Jays source told me: “It’s an interesting option. It opens some stuff for us.”

he goes on to say that Lind should be able to handle first, that he can catch the ball in the field if he gets to it.

Then there is this:

"the fact is that the Blue Jays have no clue who their third baseman will be next year. None.   Minor leaguer Brad Emaus is a blogosphere favourite, but nobody around the team thinks he can cut it in the majors. Jose Bautista? That’s a tough call: Do you trade him at the trade deadline – sell high, in other words?"

No love for Brad Emaus, per Blair. 


Marc Hulet - Monday, June 28 2010 @ 02:12 PM EDT (#217626) #
I've always likened Emaus to Scott Spiezio... probably a better platoon or bench player who has questionable defense at a number of positions but a fairly good offensive potential.
John Northey - Monday, June 28 2010 @ 03:32 PM EDT (#217627) #
Given the mess at third one starts to look at potential free agents. Listed with lifetime OPS+

Jorge Cantu FLA 102 OPS+
Pedro Feliz HOU 81 OPS+
Brandon Inge DET 85 OPS+
Maicer Izturis LAA 92 OPS+
Mike Lowell BOS 109 OPS+
Melvin Mora COL 107 OPS+ sub 80 last and this year
Ty Wigginton BAL 104 OPS+ (120 this year)

Options but might be FA's...
Garrett Atkins BAL *
Eric Chavez OAK *
Bill Hall BOS *
Nick Punto MIN *

Nothing jumps out to me there. Perhaps the idea of doing a trade for a 2B and moving Hill to 3B, or the prospect to 3B, isn't a bad idea.
finch - Monday, June 28 2010 @ 03:39 PM EDT (#217628) #

Is it conceivable that Brett Wallace COULD move back to 3B? I'm not too sure what his attributes are defensively at 3B but it is possible.

Thinking outside the box, what about Aaron Hill moving to third. I saw Ken Rosenthall mention that the Jays love Brett Lawrie from Milwaukee with the cost being someone like Shaun Marcum or Brett Cecil. I wouldn't move Cecil but Marcum for Lawrie I would do. There would be our 2B, allowing Hill to move to 3B by next season.

I'm hoping that J.P. Arencibia gets a call up by the All-Star break meaning that Buck will need to be traded. Does he have value? Now that Victor Martinez is out for the next few weeks (Broken Finger), could Boston be a trading partner? What could we get for Buck? Maybe a B+ Prospect? Maybe Ryan Kalish or Anthony Rizzo?

uglyone - Monday, June 28 2010 @ 03:57 PM EDT (#217629) #

Given the mess at third one starts to look at potential free agents. Listed with lifetime OPS+

Jorge Cantu FLA 102 OPS+
Pedro Feliz HOU 81 OPS+
Brandon Inge DET 85 OPS+
Maicer Izturis LAA 92 OPS+
Mike Lowell BOS 109 OPS+
Melvin Mora COL 107 OPS+ sub 80 last and this year
Ty Wigginton BAL 104 OPS+ (120 this year)


E.Encarnacion (27): 102 OPS+  career (106 OPS+ this year and current 1.006ops in AAA)

metafour - Monday, June 28 2010 @ 04:35 PM EDT (#217630) #

Is it conceivable that Brett Wallace COULD move back to 3B? I'm not too sure what his attributes are defensively at 3B but it is possible.

No.  Its not possible.  Wallace is a 1B.

metafour - Monday, June 28 2010 @ 04:41 PM EDT (#217631) #
but Marcum for Lawrie I would do. There would be our 2B, allowing Hill to move to 3B by next season.

I wouldn't move Marcum for Lawrie alone; no way.  Lawrie is a terrible infielder defensively.  Most people seem to think he is destined for RF.  If the offer was built around Lawrie+Odorizzi then I'd start looking at it seriously.
sam - Monday, June 28 2010 @ 04:46 PM EDT (#217632) #
I don't see Lawrie being moved.  They're going to have make a decision on Richie Weeks soon and with the money they'll have to commit to Fielder and Ross presuming they stay, Weeks may be deemed expendable.  Odorizzi would be nice.  I'd be ok with an Odorizzi and B+ prospect for Marcum.  Has Matt Gamel been written off?  What about him as a centerpiece? 
92-93 - Monday, June 28 2010 @ 04:48 PM EDT (#217633) #

I wouldn't move Cecil but Marcum for Lawrie I would do.

For me it's the exact opposite. I would never trade an established starter for an unknown (it would have to be Lawrie PLUS...), but an unknown for an unknown in an area of strength is more than fine by me.

Plus a few more million if Frasor ($2.65), Gregg ($2.75), Tallet ($2) and others go.

Slight correction, John. Gregg makes 2m this year, the other 0.75m is a buyout if the Jays choose not to pick up one or both of the option years. Also, I would add Hechevarria's 2m to any payroll calculations.

John Northey - Monday, June 28 2010 @ 05:07 PM EDT (#217634) #
EE seems to be a new Rios - goes randomly brain dead in the field and at bat, the old million dollar talent 10 cent head.

A bit harsh, but his play does seem that way. Seeing what is available on the free agent market I could see why the Jays would've taken him last year as a stopgap at the very least, hoping a change of venue would wake him up. It didn't. If AAA can then the Jays are set for 2011. If not...
Spifficus - Monday, June 28 2010 @ 05:56 PM EDT (#217635) #
Gamel's from the EE school of fielding - bad hands, bad footwork, and inaccurate arm.

As for trading Lawrie, it's that shortening window that's exactly the reason Milwakee would consider it. Marcum's 2 1/2 year window allows them to help maximize the chances this current group has.

As I said in another thread, a Lawrie-Odorizzi based package would do it for me, especially if there's a belief amongst team scouts that Lawrie can play 3b.
greenfrog - Monday, June 28 2010 @ 06:50 PM EDT (#217636) #
One reason why teams might *not* be inclined to trade for Marcum is workload-related. Marcum's previous high in IP is 159, he's coming off TJ surgery, he didn't pitch at all in 2009, and he's already up to 103.1 IP this year. An acquiring team might reasonably want another 100+ IP from him, plus post-season starts, which might be too much to ask in 2010. Even if he can stay healthy over 200+ innings, he might not be as effective in September and October. Just a thought - I'm not sure whether the Jays and other teams share this concern.
metafour - Monday, June 28 2010 @ 08:06 PM EDT (#217637) #
he didn't pitch at all in 2009

Threw just under 16 innings in the minors.
TamRa - Monday, June 28 2010 @ 09:35 PM EDT (#217642) #
RE Blair/Emaus - I'm gonna not notice that - I for one don't assume Blair is infalable and I'm biased here. Emaus is obviously not the next Rolen or anything but I don't see how he can't be a Counsell or some such. At least.

On the other hand - IF it's true the Jays don't see him as a starter (maybe their expectations for 3B are simply higher than a Counsell-type) then I think you pretty much HAVE to ride Bautista until he turns back into a pumpkin, regardless of the trade market.

RE Lawrie - if it's true his defense at 2B is undersireable, does it naturally follow he couldn't play third either? (not like I actually think we'd end up with him)

Another bit of news (of a sort) - Cleveland beat writer Anthony Castrovince mentions in passing that he has heard that Sal Fasano is on the list of candidates to take over from Cito next year.

ramone - Monday, June 28 2010 @ 10:14 PM EDT (#217645) #
Gerry or anyone, any idea if Wallace is hurt.  He was pinch hit for last night in the 8th and isn't starting today either.
John Northey - Monday, June 28 2010 @ 10:41 PM EDT (#217646) #
People forget Marcum spent time in the minors in all but 2007 (the year he threw 159 ML innings). His net innings were ...
2005: 157 MiL, 8 ML = 165 IP
2006: 52 2/3 MiL, 78 1/3 ML = 131 IP
2007: 159 IP ML only
2008: 17 MiL, 151 1/3 ML = 168 1/3 IP
2009: 15 2/3 MiL rehab innings
2010: 103 1/3 ML so far (pace for 207 over 32 starts)

Given his previous peak was 168, the 30 rule would state 198 is as far as you should go. However, that rule is for 25 and under while Marcum is in his age 28 season. However, he is coming off surgery. However, that surgery was long enough in the past that it shouldn't be a factor now.

So, what does this mean? That for a contender Marcum should be good for about 100-120 more innings at most, which would get you through the first round or two of the playoffs before you'd be pushing it too far (assuming a bit of effort at reducing workload before then). If that is an ERA+ of 131 vs most teams 5th starters (around 80-90) then that could easily be the 1 or 2 games to push you into the playoffs. Milwaukee is 7 1/2 out, but Cincinnati isn't expected to stay on top, leaving just the Cardinals who are a good team but not a great one thus catchable but they'd need everything to break right. Given just one starter for the Brewers is above 90 for ERA+ Marcum would be a godsend for them. Heck, 1/2 of our AAA staff would be a godsend for them! If needed we could eat Hoffman's salary if it gets better prospects back - they could also take Frasor or Downs as their pen is also ugly.
uglyone - Monday, June 28 2010 @ 11:34 PM EDT (#217647) #
It's nothing short of hilarious that with our team scuffling badly at the plate, we waive EE of all people, who's been an above average hitter this year despite a horrific BABIP, and who is posting a 1.200ops so far in AAA, while we keep trotting out the likes of Hill, Lind, Overbay, Hoffpauir, McDonald, Molina, Green, and Wise who have all been far, far worse than EE was.

With our team scuffling badly at the plate, we decide to waive a guy that wasn't part of the problem (and who had just won a game for us all by himself just a couple days earlier), and made ourselves a worse team.


Jdog - Monday, June 28 2010 @ 11:43 PM EDT (#217648) #
"maybe their expectations for 3B are simply higher than a Counsell-type"

And maybe he doesn't want his wife cheating on him too. Their is no maybe's about expecting Counsell level production out of a starting 3B. Lets hope Emaus has a little more pop in his bat and can be a useful player with maybe a couple good peak years where he is starting calibre

Spifficus - Tuesday, June 29 2010 @ 12:17 AM EDT (#217649) #
Look, EE hasn't hit well in a year and a half. SLG the ball okay doesn't absolve him of getting on base. At best, he's been mediocre. I'm ignoring the 24 ABs he's had at Vegas because, well, it's 24 ABs. Then there's the matter of his glove.... I don't know how to describe his defense... bad just really doesn't seem to do it justice.

I don't really understand your list of players.... Green, Molina and McDonald all play more important defensive positions than EE, are versitile, and are bench players to boot. Hoffpauir's had a week. Overbay's been hitting since the first month and is plus defensively. Wise is the 4th OF who is able to cover centre, play plus defense, and run a lot. Hill is notoriously streaky, plays second base, and hit quite well last year. Lind is the only guy who is directly replaceable by EE, and this is a guy who's 300 ABs removed from 81 extra base hits, and a .932 OPS. I have a lot more faith in Lind to turn it around than someone who hasn't really hit since hurting his wrist and moving out of GABP, and has been known to butcher little woodland animals with his glove.
uglyone - Tuesday, June 29 2010 @ 12:34 AM EDT (#217650) #

EE was hitting fine this year by any metric (.765ops/106ops+/.329wOBA), despite a horrendous absolutely unsustainably low BABIP. Certainly well better than many of the hitters we're trotting out there every day.

He also has the career numbers (.788ops/102ops+/.344wOBA) to compare to any of Hill (.760ops/100ops+/.331wOBA, Lind (.792ops/109ops+/.340wOBA), or Overbay (.804ops/110ops+/.348wOBA).....let alone stiffs like Hoffpauir, Green, or WIse.

Spifficus - Tuesday, June 29 2010 @ 12:53 AM EDT (#217652) #
I'll agree to disagree on the 'hitting fine' bit, but that still goes back to the question, who's he replacing for you? Listing players you can't replace him with (Hill, Wise, Green) does no good.

That he wasn't claimed when DFA'd even though he only has a couple million left on his salary speaks to the opinion of the baseball world. There are teams out there that have holes at 1B, DH, or the bench that could use him without giving up talent, yet they didn't. Toronto would have to take playing time away from Lind, take Overbay's glove away from the rest of the infielders, or continue to live (and die) with his defense at 3b. They chose "none of the above".
Spifficus - Tuesday, June 29 2010 @ 01:01 AM EDT (#217653) #

Consider for a second that the organization is earning your scorn for not being satisfied with the play of a player who has never been worth as much as 2 WAR in a season, and wasn't a favorite to do it this season. This is why I think the organization should look to trade Marcum (presumably) for a potential star-level 3b of the future like Lawrie. Let's stop arguing about the periphery and go for the gusto!

uglyone - Tuesday, June 29 2010 @ 01:02 AM EDT (#217655) #
At the moment, he'd be an upgrade on all of:

  1. AAAA Hoffpauir as 3rd baseman
  2. AAAA Green as 1st bench bat (given that JMac is the prime bench IF anyways, mitigating any defensive advantage for Green)
  3. Overbay as 1B
  4. Lind as DH

Spifficus - Tuesday, June 29 2010 @ 01:16 AM EDT (#217656) #
I can get behind 2. That's all. If Lind doesn't have a much better second half, the season's sunk anyway (in which case the marginal upgrade of going with Encarnacion's detrimental because it's taking long term ABs away from Lind... it's a bit paradoxical, really). He really doesn't provide any upgrade over what Overbay's been doing since the end of April, and at a cost of Lyle's defense. And, defense is the reason I'd be willing to try putting a kitchen sink at third in place of EE.
TamRa - Tuesday, June 29 2010 @ 01:19 AM EDT (#217657) #
And maybe he doesn't want his wife cheating on him too.

I get what you are saying and don't necessarily disagree, but Counsell, for his limitations, certainly wouldn't be described in his prime as "can't cut it in the majors"

But yeah, looking him up he didn't do as well as i had remembered.

but then, he didn't hit like Emaus in the minors so it's a bad comparison overall.

A good direct comparison is difficult to find - but there are a world of marginal role-playing guys who had a pretty long career in the majors - guys who's minor league work doesn't indicate they are noteably better than Emaus. If he's only our version of Macir izturus, that's a far cry from "can't cut it in the majors"

so the point I was making was not whether or not the team would prefer a Zimmerman or a Wright at 3B over Emaus - of course they would - but rather that the opinion Blair refers to is ACTUALLY something more like "We love Brad Emaus but we hope our starting 3B will bew better than him - we don't see his skills cutting it as a major league starting 3B on a championship team"

Even then, I'd disagree - a great many chapionship teams have featured at least one player with a pretty pedestrian offensive output...but at least the point is a different one.

92-93 - Tuesday, June 29 2010 @ 02:18 AM EDT (#217659) #

Suggesting E5 should replace Overbay (.284/.357/.468 since May14 with sterling defense) or Lind (tremendous year last year, locked in till at least 2014) is ludicrous, and there's no reason whatsoever to replace Green with him on a team managed by Clarence (if I were AA I'd hand Clarence an 8th reliever). As for Hoffpauir, I highly doubt anybody in the front office sees him as anything more than a short term band-aid, a way to send E5 a message that his horrific defense and refusal to run out groundballs simply won't cut it. If Snider was around Bautista would be starting at 3B, and I'm guessing if Snider isn't ready after the All-Star break that E5 will make his return, assuming Hoff doesn't get hot and E5 is healthy and productive at Vegas.

It becomes clearer with each game why the Giants gave up on Lewis - it's really frustrating watching him play the OF and he must have been a disaster in that spacious OF. He reminds me a lot of Rios, minus a bunch of the skill. The back-peddling catch Gonzalez made tonight was a ball Lewis had plenty of time to get to and made no effort to do so, and I'm not even sure he couldn't have caught the double that went over his head.

Romero looked really good tonight in terms of battling, because he didn't appear to have the good stuff. It could be the stats talking to me but I think there's a discernable difference between the body language on the mound of Cecil & Romero despite pretty similar stuff. Cecil reminds me a lot of Hamels, who seems to lack some mound presence. In other good news, Downs is on the cusp of being a Type A, Buck, Frasor, and Gregg are entrenched as Bs, and presumably Gonzalez will get to B status too as the counting stats and total chances rise with playing time. That 2.5m option for him is looking nice, regardless of if he's the starting SS in 2011 or not. 

Kelekin - Tuesday, June 29 2010 @ 06:09 AM EDT (#217662) #
Encarnacion's defense unfortunately hasn't been any better since being sent down and it's doubtful it will improve.  4 errors already.  To be honest, the guy's career path seems to be Shea Hillenbrand-esque, as much as I hate to mention him.  I'd like his bat in our lineup, though.
TamRa - Tuesday, June 29 2010 @ 01:39 PM EDT (#217684) #
I'm a bit curious about whether or not we'll give up on him as a 3B before we give up on his offense. Seems to me that if he simply can't cut it at third, maybe all the pressure there is affecting his bat and maybe it's time to see how he plays in RF or at 1B or something - not like we have a real need at 1B but if it could increase his value . . .

uglyone - Tuesday, June 29 2010 @ 03:45 PM EDT (#217690) #

Suggesting E5 should replace Overbay (.284/.357/.468 since May14 with sterling defense) or Lind (tremendous year last year, locked in till at least 2014) is ludicrous, and there's no reason whatsoever to replace Green with him on a team managed by Clarence (if I were AA I'd hand Clarence an 8th reliever). As for Hoffpauir, I highly doubt anybody in the front office sees him as anything more than a short term band-aid, a way to send E5 a message that his horrific defense and refusal to run out groundballs simply won't cut it


I have never seen a fanbase so eager to justify their crappy first baseman because of he upgraded from "hilariously awful" all the way up to "below average".

  • April: .610ops
  • May: .726ops
  • June: .762ops
  • Last 7: .497ops

The people convincing themselves that Overbay has been acceptable recently are holding very low standards.

More importantly, I've never seen a fanbase so quickly forget a certain truth about their first baseman - that HE IS NOT AN EVERY DAY PLAYER, becayse he CANNOT HIT LEFTIES.  Never could, still can't.

  • Vs. Right: .750ops
  • Vs. Left: .549ops

It is absolutely ridiculous that we keep trotting him out  there pretending that he's an everyday player, when he's clearly not.

Even an Overbay/Encarnacion platoon would be a very nice upgrade to this team right now.

And are you kidding with the Hoffpauir defense? why would we use a 27 year old "bandaid" that is much, much worse than the 27 year old we're apparently "sending a mesage too"? We should play EE to send a message to Hoffpauir that he sucks.

John Northey - Tuesday, June 29 2010 @ 04:28 PM EDT (#217693) #
No one has suggested Overbay is the answer in 2011 (or even for the 2nd half of 2010 if someone will take his $7 mil contract off the Jays hands). Hoffpauir isn't a great player, in fact he is the definition of 'replacement level' I suspect and few would argue otherwise.

EE has 'Rios disease'. Namely, he has tons of talent but can't seem to put it together. No other major league team thinks he can otherwise they'd have grabbed him off waivers. His raw skill makes him a 1/2 decent hitter (100 OPS level) but it is slugging heavy thus actually a bit below average. Because of this he cannot be a DH or 1B long term unless he puts his head together. He also cannot stay at third unless he figures out how not to make errors.

So, while he might be useful in a platoon or bench role I strongly suspect his skills do not translate well to that role (ie: he'd pout and do even worse). This is a guy who has peaked at a 108 OPS+, is hitting the crap out of the ball in AAA PCL but has 4 errors in 13 chances in AAA as well. He is not a third baseman, and his ML stats suggest he won't hit enough (unless he is an amazing defensive player) to stick at 1B. His $4.75 million salary for 2010 is a write off now, and if he doesn't put it into gear on defense or keep hitting so much better that he can handle 1B/DH then he will be released come end of year.

Overbay provides defense, and is gone at the end of the year anyways. Lind is signed long term thus not likely to be benched for a guy who is unlikely to hit better than Lind long term anyways (a 144 OPS+ last year is far beyond anything EE has shown). You could toss EE into LF I guess instead of Lewis or RF instead of Bautista (moving Bautista to 3B) but again, his bat just isn't enough long term and his defense would probably be worse (easier to get bored in the outfield).
Spifficus - Tuesday, June 29 2010 @ 04:28 PM EDT (#217694) #

EE's had 10 hits since the 15th of May, and didn't make up for this with his glove. He had one hell of an Arizona series, but really, his 'fine' performance is entirely a product of that, and the small sample size is masking that. Before those three games, he was .200/.255/.425. After, he was .145/.280/.261. For an offense-only player (especially when he has to make up for his defense) this doesn't make him part of the solution. Sure, you can say why single him out, at which point I'll argue because his glove sucks, he didn't do much last year, and he's not part of the future. Hoffpauir at least gets them a tolerable glove with some hope for a few hits while they wait for Snider to come back (and move Bautista to 3b).

uglyone - Tuesday, June 29 2010 @ 04:36 PM EDT (#217695) #

EE won us a game all by himself just a couple days prior to being demoted, and his last series with us went .333/.400/.666/1.066.

But hey, if you guys really think Hoffpauir starting, Overbay not platooning, and Nick Green being the best bat off the bench really makes us better than having EE on the team, well, I don't know what else to say,r eally.

Spifficus - Tuesday, June 29 2010 @ 04:49 PM EDT (#217696) #
in all cases, where the alternative is EE butchering 3b, quite likely butchering 1b, and never pinch hitting anyway (92-93 is right about this - Cito's just really not going to use pinch hitters), I'm ok with this.

Of course, if Snider's wrist would hurry up and heal, this is all irrelevant anyway, since we'd be done getting worked up over which is the 'best' of the worst options.
uglyone - Tuesday, June 29 2010 @ 07:24 PM EDT (#217701) #

Was that EE butchering 3B in the first inning today? or was that him butchering 1B in the first inning today?

Or was that two guys with OPSes in the .600s doing that?



Spifficus - Tuesday, June 29 2010 @ 07:52 PM EDT (#217705) #
I didn't start watching until the second, but really, if you have no idea how bad EE is as a 3b, there's not much that's going to change your mind on the matter. For me? Sometimes it takes more than being able to put leather on a hand to be able to field a position.
uglyone - Tuesday, June 29 2010 @ 07:56 PM EDT (#217706) #

we are playing John MacDonald at 3B.


John MacDonald.

Spifficus - Tuesday, June 29 2010 @ 08:01 PM EDT (#217708) #
Hey. Feel free to keep pining away for EE. I've stated my thoughts on it enough.
uglyone - Tuesday, June 29 2010 @ 08:02 PM EDT (#217709) #

Not sure an opinion that John MacDonald is a better 3B than Encarnacion has any real justification, to be honest.

CeeBee - Tuesday, June 29 2010 @ 08:27 PM EDT (#217712) #
This sure is much ado about nothing IMO :)
Kelekin - Tuesday, June 29 2010 @ 10:31 PM EDT (#217718) #
"Rios disease"? My god.  It's like everyone forgot this guy put up three seasons in a row with an OPS of .865, .852, and .798.  An extra 11 SB in the season with the lower OPS.  But no, he has a half-season of .744 OPS and we place him on waivers.

At least I understand Jays fans had issues with him, but to say he never lived up to any of his potential? Please.

Encarnacion is an .800 OPS player, who was injured last year.  But he will never be able to field.  That's all there is to it.

Thomas - Tuesday, June 29 2010 @ 10:49 PM EDT (#217719) #
we are playing John MacDonald at 3B.

Giving John McDonald his first start in the infield in over a month isn't worthy of a mention and it's hardly an indication of a lack of alternatives to Encarnacion. If you're going to make complain about this, you can never complain about Cito's lack of bench usage.

uglyone - Wednesday, June 30 2010 @ 12:17 AM EDT (#217723) #
John McDonald should never, ever, ever, ever, ever start at third base or left field for any major league team. ever.

And he's done both in the past week or so.

If EE starts tonight instead of JMac, we win the game.

92-93 - Wednesday, June 30 2010 @ 10:26 AM EDT (#217748) #
Cuz Lord knows E5 never makes throwing errors or strikes out...
China fan - Wednesday, June 30 2010 @ 11:40 AM EDT (#217759) #
At this point, it's becoming clear that uglyone is either a close family relative of EE or possibly his agent.

The consensus among almost everyone else is this:  EE is an erratic and streaky hitter whose defense is not reliable enough to justify keeping him at 3B for a whole season.  It's always possible to look at EE's performance and find a good game, a good series, or even a good season (2006).  But as John Northey pointed out, EE at his very best was nowhere as good as Lind at his best.  And Lind's best was in 2009, whereas EE's best was 2006.  Because of his poor defence, you can't put EE on the Jays bench. But his hitting doesn't justify a full-time slot at DH or LF or 1B where his poor defence could be overlooked.  Finally, the evidence of the waiver wire -- nobody put in a claim for him -- just doesn't lie.

uglyone - Wednesday, June 30 2010 @ 02:51 PM EDT (#217774) #

That "consensus" is meaningless.

The only things that should matter to us are:

  1. EE even as is, is a thoroughly average MLB 3B.  And, he has some upside left on top of that.
  2. EE is a better 3B than Jarrett Hoffpauir or John McDonald.

Anything beyond that is irrelevant fluff.


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