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The Cy Young award this year seems to be split in the AL between these two - one with many wins, one with killer stats. But what if they each started for the other team?

Taking the 2010 game logs for Felix and CC one can see game by game results and play 'what if'. We cannot factor in defense too easily, so I'll go with what we got.

Method 1: Put starts together with Yankee runs scored vs Seattle runs allowed (and vice-versa) to see their teams record if the other guy started and the other guys bullpen relieved. Stats are W-L-Tied
Felix: 19-9-2 vs real life 15-15
CC: 12-17-1 vs real life 21-9
This suggests that there would've been almost no difference to the Yankees if they had Felix and the Seattle bullpen pitch instead of CC and the Yankee one.
However, for Seattle it would've been at least a 2 game drop to use CC/Yankees pen instead of Felix/Seattle pen.

Method 2: Use runs allowed by starters mixed with how the other guys bullpen did (ie: if Yankee pen allowed 1 run in CC's 3rd start and Seattles allowed 3 in Felix's 3rd then remove 2 runs from the total that day for Felix and add them to CC's).
Felix: 21-6-3 which is 3 ties instead of losses for the Yankees
CC: 11-16-3 which is 1 more loss and wins changed into ties for Seattle

These methods scream that Felix Hernandez has had a better year and, if provided with the Yankee bullpen, would have as good or better a record than CC Sabathia. Switch the teams these two are on and there would be no talk of CC Sabathia having a shot at a Cy Young when the MOST wins he could have is 11 or 12 (odds are fewer due to when runs scored) and that he could have up to 17 losses (fewer I'm certain as Seattle's pen has given up runs in 14 of 30 starts vs just 5 of 30 for the Yankee pen and CC).

As an extra: it is worth noting that 16 paired starts have Felix throwing as many innings and allowing the same or fewer runs than CC, while 11 times CC did the same vs Felix. They threw the same innings/runs once, while twice Felix went one more inning while allowing one more run.

Of course, the hidden factor is that Felix faced the AL West more, while CC had to face the Red Sox, Rays, and Jays more often. But some of that is balanced by Felix facing the Yankees 3 times (allowing just 1 run - guess he liked the challenge) vs CC facing Seattle (3 runs over 3 games) and CC getting to pitch against Baltimore. Note that Felix has not faced the Jays or Rays but allowed just 2 runs in his one game against Boston so vs 2 of the beasts he allowed just 3 runs over 33 1/3 IP. Too bad Seattle isn't nuts enough to trade him here!
CC Sabathia vs Felix Hernandez | 10 comments | Create New Account
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92-93 - Wednesday, September 08 2010 @ 02:12 PM EDT (#222099) #
For what it's worth, CC has actually never faced the Blue Jays this year (not that I think that's a particularly difficult task, just sayin).

If wins weren't a pitcher's stat, as they shouldn't be, you'd have a hard time convincing anyone Sabathia is even top 5 in the league. Liriano, Lee, Hernandez, and Lester jump off the page to me, and Weaver, Buchholz, Cahill, Price, Pavano, and Verlander are all right there with CC. I'm so sick of the fetishism of W-L record; Sabathia plays for the best team baseball so he accordingly has a very strong record. If anybody believes the nonsense that he pitches to the score and knows how to win, they should know he's 6-6 this year when the Yankees score 4 or less runs in a start of his, and the team has lost 3 of his other starts in which they scored 6, 7, and 11 runs.
Mick Doherty - Wednesday, September 08 2010 @ 02:29 PM EDT (#222101) #

This year, it's a slam-dunk CCy Young Award. Why? New York , New York, the city so nice they named it twice.

Why not Felix? Seattle, Waahington.

Not sayin' this is the way it should be ... just sayin'.

AWeb - Wednesday, September 08 2010 @ 03:03 PM EDT (#222106) #
I thought CC would definitely win (not deserve, but win) if he got his ERA closer to the leaders and hence likely win a bunch more games. But last night, giving up 6 runs to the Orioles (5 earned), that's not going to help his case.

But the "problem" with ERA is Hernandez could suddenly raise his by a lot with a few gopher balls, but Wins you get to keep (which is probably why so many love them so much - they only ever go up). Toronto basically ended Lester's Cy Young chances back in August, pushing his ERA up half a point, accounting for 6% of his WHIP in 2 innings. That start could happen to Hernandez, at which point the narrative (of him not allowing runs, look at his ERA) gets screwed up. But nothing Sabathia does from here can cost him a win.

Just why I think Sabathia is likely to win, if he paces the league by two wins (say 21 for him, 19 for Price).
John Northey - Wednesday, September 08 2010 @ 03:09 PM EDT (#222107) #
The arguments seem to be out there so I figured lets take a look at a straight comparison. Guess I could've added how they did vs the same teams but I think the way Felix has manhandled NY and Boston tells you all you need to know there.

Can't ever forget the 1983 Cy Young ripoff where LaMarr Hoyt got it for his 24 wins despite a WAR of just 3.7 (not among top 12) while Dave Stieb didn't even get a 3rd place vote despite a 6.4 WAR (1.1 above anyone else). Stieb was 3rd in ERA, 2nd in IP, 3rd in K's, but was stuck with a nightmare bullpen thus had just 17 wins (3 times allowed 3 or fewer and lost, 4 times allowed 3 or fewer and no decision including a 9 inning 0 run performance).

Stieb really was jobbed as he lead in WAR for pitchers in 1982/1983/1984 and was 2nd in 1981 and 1985 (a 3rd in 1990 is notable too as he lost to 27 game winner and grossly inferior pitcher Bob Welch [2.5 vs 5.6] although Clemens [9.5 WAR] was really jobbed that year). With a good offense and bullpen he could've had up to 5 Cy Young's in a row and been a HOF lock. Instead he was a one and gone from the Hall ballot.
youngid - Wednesday, September 08 2010 @ 03:44 PM EDT (#222111) #
The Mariners' team defense is much better than the Yankees'. The Mariners' home park is much more pitcher-friendly than the Yankees' as well.

The different context for their performances makes a difference to me, so I'd go with CC for the award.
Mike Green - Wednesday, September 08 2010 @ 03:58 PM EDT (#222112) #
Sabathia earned his 150th career win a couple of weeks after he turned 30.  With all the hue and cry about the end of the 300 game winner, it looks like he is solidly on course.

Not that this has anything to do with his MVP qualifications in 2010.  The fact that he has had 6.07 runs/game of support, whereas Hernandez has had 3.17 runs/game tells the tale for me about the importance of Sabathia's W/L record.  Steve Stone won 25 games in 1980 with the help of 5.69 runs/game support and that was enough for him to win a CYA, so it wouldn't be the first time...

Mike Green - Wednesday, September 08 2010 @ 03:59 PM EDT (#222114) #
Not that this has anything to do with his MVP qualifications in 2010

Ack.  CYA not MVP.  If Sabathia gets MVP consideration, that would be a new low.
damos - Wednesday, September 08 2010 @ 04:37 PM EDT (#222116) #
Unfortunately, I think the rather large discrepancy in win totals is what's going to get CC the award.
Hopefully I'm wrong & Felix gets the nod because he's been pretty incredible with a truly dismal supporting cast.

Mick Doherty - Friday, September 10 2010 @ 12:36 PM EDT (#222225) #
Yankees.com weighs in on this exact topic today .... in a surprisingly even-handed, unbiased way!
Chuck - Friday, September 10 2010 @ 01:33 PM EDT (#222229) #

Yankees.com weighs in

The writer keeps saying "modern metrics" like ERA was invented last Tuesday.

On last year's Cy Young voting: "It was a victory for the numbers-crunchers often accused of taking the heart and soul out of the game and replacing it with a calculator." Oh please. Hackneyed writing is far more grating on the soul.

 

CC Sabathia vs Felix Hernandez | 10 comments | Create New Account
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