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Well, this has been a year to remember for Jose Bautista. Jumping his Slg by 214 points, OBP by 34, Avg by 30 from last year. He is 29 though, a great age for peak seasons. But how odd is this? How often has this happened, and to whom?

Making use of the good ol' Lahman Database I put together a few queries so I could easily compare guys over 2 years. For this I put together a list of every player who had 300+ PA at age 28 and then did the same at age 29 (Bautista had 400 both years, but lets open it up a bit). This gives us 1547 players from 1874/5 to 2008/9. To make sure this stuff works nicely I checked a few other ages traditionally viewed as peak as well. So, what are the peaks and valleys?

Age
Year 2
Avg JumpAvg DropOBP JumpOBP DropSlg JumpSlg Drop
25126110160109216238
26126143137117234288
27111118107105233254
28106108128128205220
29117115132105250198
30126114136134211293
31097097123113230288
32127106121126315263
All Ages127143160167315293

So, who at age 29 slugged 250 points higher? Canadian Tip O'Neill in 1887. 2nd was Oscar Gamble in 1979 at 223. The other 200+ guy was Tommy Harper at 211 in 1970.

So I have a total of 15,826 paired seasons, out of all of those there has been just one case of someone going beyond a total Slg improvement of 250, that was Javy Lopez in 2003 at the age of 32 vs his age 31 season (372 to 687 with a 169 OPS+, career pre-age 32 was at 478). He followed up with a 503 (127 OPS+) and a 458 (106 OPS+) before finishing with a 386 (75 OPS+ vs his 74 at age 31).

For a 200+ point improvement in slugging we get 23 players all-time including Bautista's current manager Cito Gaston (!) in 1970 at age 26 he jumped by 233 points, 4th best all time. The list, from highest to lowest, is Tip O'Neill, Jeff Bagwell, Cito Gaston, Hugh Duffy, Carl Furillo, Ted Williams (age 41), Oscar Gamble, Lou Gehrig, Gary Carter, Richard Hidalgo, Rico Petrocelli, Andres Galarraga (Colorado), Tommy Harper, Davey Johnson, Bobby Grich, Ralph Kiner, Dusty Baker, Adrian Beltre, Greg Vaughn, George Davis, Mark McGwire, and Fred Lynn. Quite the quality list there with a few odd names mixed in. All of them increase in OBP and Avg as well (no shock) with only Bobby Grich increasing in OBP by less than 40 (only 9 points) and everyone increasing batting average by 43 points or more.

So, what do we see? Guys who jump in Slg% by 200+ points between 2 seasons tend to be very good hitters who also increase in OBP and Slg by over 40 points. Yet Bautista is unique as he will have (most likely) the smallest increase in OBP and Avg outside of Bobby Grich's OBP. Grich slugged 394 lifetime pre his big year, 438 after despite it happening at age 30. His OPS+ pre was 122, 125 after a 145 in the big year (he had a better one 2 years after it). In truth, I'm not sure why Grich's career ended when it did as he had a 109 OPS+ (268/354/412) his final season playing primarily 2B in 1986.

So is he a Cito Gaston type (career year by a landslide), Bobby Grich (stayed at old level but with a bit more power), or Ralph Kiner (stayed at new level)? That is the challenge. Btw, for ISO only Bagwell and Lopez are higher than Bautista with Carlos Beltran (also age 29 but already had done similar) close behind.
Best Improvements Ever or How Odd Is Bautista | 47 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
Mick Doherty - Friday, September 24 2010 @ 04:02 PM EDT (#222978) #
On the current homepage alone of this site, no less than FOUR full threads are dedicated solely to Sr. Bautista.  I bet that hasn't happened fro one player since the Halladay trade ...
John Northey - Friday, September 24 2010 @ 04:29 PM EDT (#222981) #
What can we say? Bautista is inspiring us and hitting that milestone just pushes all of us to dream up of something new.

Last time a Jay did something historic with a standard stat was probably negative with Roy Halladay's 10.64 ERA in 2000 (worst ever for 50+ IP iirc). Not counting the 500th HR hit by Frank Thomas here (did anyone really care given it was just his 14th here) what else has happened (positive stuff) that would appear on ESPN or other major US networks? Halladay's Cy Young, Hinske ROY but those things happen every year. I'm kind of stuck outside of that without going back to the glory days or the Clemens years.
China fan - Friday, September 24 2010 @ 05:34 PM EDT (#222984) #
Woah, hold on -- what about Reed Johnson tying the all-time major-league record for HBPs in a single game in 2005 and again in 2006?   No props for that??
Thomas - Friday, September 24 2010 @ 05:40 PM EDT (#222985) #
that would appear on ESPN or other major US networks?

Except it didn't. Or not in a major way, at least. The headline story on each major sports site in their baseball section this morning was something other than Bautista.

Kasi - Friday, September 24 2010 @ 05:40 PM EDT (#222986) #
Maybe we've all been waiting for someone worthy to put up in the banner? Bautista does seem to inspire strong emotions worthy of it.
James W - Friday, September 24 2010 @ 05:47 PM EDT (#222987) #

For much of the afternoon and evening, Bautista's 50th home run was the top story on the front pages of ESPN.com and SI.com.  Once the evening came and Price and Sabathia renewed acquaintances (and Carmelo Anthony trade talks heated up) then he slid down.  But yesterday this was absolutely a story.

Mick Doherty - Friday, September 24 2010 @ 06:41 PM EDT (#222990) #
Kasi, we are aware that the banner needs to be changed. I think we've decided to wait until the offseason, but if anyone out there is an aspriring baseball artiste and wants to take a whack at a Box banner with Bautista and/or other(s), please do feel free! No promises we'll use it, but we're happy to accept contributions!
Kasi - Friday, September 24 2010 @ 07:06 PM EDT (#222991) #
Oh I know that Mick. My thinking though was that part of the reason that its been hard to change it is that there was no Jay really worthy of being put there. No Jay big enough in people's minds to be fired up enough to put them there. Lind's excellence last year was great, but he didn't inspire people like Bautista has this year. Same for Romero. Wells of course is a solid player, but I don't think anyone gets all that excited about Vernon anymore. But Bautista is a firey guy, a rag to riches story that we'd all like to see Toronto emulate on the way towards a postseason trip. He is inherently cool, something that is lacking from our current crop of young players. He hits jacks, he has a great beard and he has one of the best stares in the business. He is really right now the heart of the team, and I think him alongside Marcum would be a cool banner.
CeeBee - Friday, September 24 2010 @ 08:15 PM EDT (#222994) #
" He is really right now the heart of the team, and I think him alongside Marcum would be a cool banner."
Can't say I disagree with that. Or how about Bautista plus the four young gun starters somehow squeezed into the rest.... or would that make it too congested?
raptorsaddict - Friday, September 24 2010 @ 10:50 PM EDT (#222995) #
Does Bautista have a shot at winning the MVP? I don't follow the rest of the league nearly enough to know (i.e. I had no idea who Yunel Escobar was), but I"m sure some bauxites have an answer to this question.
Mick Doherty - Friday, September 24 2010 @ 10:55 PM EDT (#222996) #
The simple answer is no. Had he not been hurt, I think Hamilton would have (and should hve) edged out Cabrera. But given  Josh missing the last two weeks of the pennant race, I find it hard to imaging Miggy won't win.
92-93 - Friday, September 24 2010 @ 11:29 PM EDT (#222997) #
If a player on the Tigers can win MVP then Jose Bautista deserves it more. Sure, Miguel hits for a higher AVG and a slightly better OPS, but there has to be some credit given for the defensive flexibility Bautista provided Gaston this year as well as the fact that he's a far better base runner and led MLB in HRs.
Gerry - Friday, September 24 2010 @ 11:42 PM EDT (#222998) #
I spoke with Jamie Campbell today.  He was excited about a feature he recorded earlier in the week with the four "big" starting pitchers in the same room at the same time.  He said the conversation was very interesting.  They discussed Cito, Doc, and their hopes for 2011.  Half will be shown on the pre-game show Saturday, and the second part Sunday.  Set your PVR's.
brent - Friday, September 24 2010 @ 11:49 PM EDT (#222999) #

I just hope GM AA hasn't fallen too far in love with Bautista. Career years are no time to be locking up players when you don't have to yet.

Anyway, here's a gem quote:

 It's tough to get in a rhythm like that," XXXX said of how he was used over the final two months. "Say for instance you have two good games and then that day off, it messes you up. It was kind of tough getting in a rhythm that way, but it's baseball. You have to stay up and be ready all the time."

That's why we need to see Snider (and wishfully JPA) get a lot of plate appearances. Quote courtesy of Lewis who is convinced he's a regular starter. I don't think we'll see him next year unless there's an outfield trade when he publicly talks about playing time.

Interesting- AL teams that have a winning record against the AL East- Tampa, NY, Boston and Toronto. No other AL team is even .500.  The AL Beast for sure.

Kasi - Saturday, September 25 2010 @ 12:04 AM EDT (#223000) #
What annoys me is when people say Cabrera should win because of being on a contender. Only reason that crappy team was in contention is because they play in a crappy division. We'd be in the wild card hunt for sure if we were in their place.
Kasi - Saturday, September 25 2010 @ 12:07 AM EDT (#223001) #
Bautista said much the same thing, that he was able to settle in once he got every day playing time and was hitting in the same spot in the order.
greenfrog - Saturday, September 25 2010 @ 12:18 AM EDT (#223002) #
I think Bautista has a shot (albeit a fairly long shot) at AL MVP. He's hovering at or very close to the top of the charts in most offensive categories: HR, RBI, R, slugging, total bases, walks. He's also a versatile and useful defender. He's had a monster second half (303/412/728 since the All-Star break). He might be just behind Cabrera and/or some of the other leading candidates (Cano, Mauer, maybe Beltre), but you never know. If he finishes first in HR, R, and RBI (say, 56/115/135), I think he'll have a 25-50% chance of winning the award. But he'll need an unbelievable finish to the season to end up with those stats, in part because he's unlikely to see many more hittable pitches.
TamRa - Saturday, September 25 2010 @ 12:55 AM EDT (#223003) #
with apologies for the appearance of self promotion, tell me where i got it wrong here and, if not, feel free to draw attention to the case made (not the one who made it necessarily)

http://thesouthpawbaseball.blogspot.com/2010/09/point-of-order.html

TamRa - Saturday, September 25 2010 @ 12:58 AM EDT (#223004) #
regarding Lewis - dude has seriously worn out his welcome with me. He doesn't bring enough in his all around game to make up for the whining. 4th outfielders are not that difficult to come by.


TamRa - Saturday, September 25 2010 @ 01:03 AM EDT (#223005) #
The simple answer is no. Had he not been hurt, I think Hamilton would have (and should hve) edged out Cabrera. But given  Josh missing the last two weeks of the pennant race, I find it hard to imaging Miggy won't win.

The publicity machine being what it is, you may be right about who WILL win, but every argument for Cabrera over Hamilton is just as much an argument for Bautista over Hamilton.

The teams have the same record, the teams are not far apart in OPS if you take away their best hitter, and JB has more value defensively.

Hamilton has a marginally better hitter overall, but once you start this "Where would the Tigers be without him?" stuff, Bautista is right there with Cabrera.

Anyone who doesn't vote Bautista at least third isn't paying attention.

Personally, since those two are essentially tied (give JB ten more singles and his OPS equals Cabera's), I'd vote Hamilton. But 2/3 could go either way.

brent - Saturday, September 25 2010 @ 06:06 AM EDT (#223006) #

Wise > Lewis as 4th outfielder

I wonder how much speed Lewis will have though if his feet are all fixed. If he could really work on his outfield defense, he could be a tremendous asset. I like Lewis and wish he could turn into something special.

It does show an organizational weakness in not having been able to develop enough athletic outfielders over the years. The team should've had some better options before dumping the bank onto Well's lap. All I can say is that I am very satisfied with what GM AA has been doing so far and I hope he can get a fantastic manager in here for next season.

rtcaino - Saturday, September 25 2010 @ 08:57 AM EDT (#223007) #

FWIW, baseball prospectus has it's VORP Leaders as:

JH: 71.3
JB: 69.1
MC: 67.4

With MC being rated higher offensively, and JB apparently surpassing him by virtue of defense.
Magpie - Saturday, September 25 2010 @ 10:29 AM EDT (#223012) #
tell me where i got it wrong here

Just a little too eager to remove Cano from the discussion. I don't know if he is the MVP, but it's definitely a four player race. Three sluggers and a middle infielder.
Kasi - Saturday, September 25 2010 @ 12:08 PM EDT (#223014) #
Not terribly enamored with Cano atm. He has done worse post all star break then pre, and hasn't been doing particularly well as of late. His team is also not going to win their division and will fall behind Tampa and just get the wild card. He does have the second base position going for him with his defense, but I don't know if that's enough. Here is a name though that doesn't get mentioned and should be mentioned more. Carl Crawford. Just behind Jose in WAR (Hamilton is the clear leader) and playing for a team that will win the AL East. Beltre as well might have a case if Boston finishes strong, as he is tied with Jose in WAR as well. But Cano I think has taken himself out of the running.
Kasi - Saturday, September 25 2010 @ 12:10 PM EDT (#223015) #
My personal list atm:

1. Hamilton (he really has been that good, and would be a slam dunk if not for the injury)
2. Jose
3. Crawford
4. Miggy
5a/b. Cano/Beltre

TamRa - Saturday, September 25 2010 @ 12:38 PM EDT (#223016) #
Also, the whole "where would they be without him" argument really undermines any case for Cano.


earlweaverfan - Saturday, September 25 2010 @ 04:53 PM EDT (#223020) #
I wonder how much speed Lewis will have though if his feet are all fixed. If he could really work on his outfield defense, he could be a tremendous asset. I like Lewis and wish he could turn into something special.

There was a quotation from Cito not long ago that sounded as if he believed that Lewis was the physically strongest batter on the team (and thus having plenty of potential home run power) , but that he (Lewis) wasn't taking the Jays' coaching seriously enough.

Did I just dream that up or could Lewis's relegation to the bench have to do with how coachable he seems to be, to Cito?
andrewkw - Saturday, September 25 2010 @ 06:16 PM EDT (#223022) #
Jose did another impressive feat today, hitting a foul ball out of the Rogers Center!  I've never ever seen a ball clear the stadium didn't think it was possible.  Has anyone else ever done this? 
Magpie - Saturday, September 25 2010 @ 06:38 PM EDT (#223023) #
Has anyone else ever done this?

Doubt it. At the very least, I'm pretty sure no one's ever been that far out in front of a 95 mph fastball...
Thomas - Saturday, September 25 2010 @ 08:59 PM EDT (#223024) #
I spoke with Jamie Campbell today. He was excited about a feature he recorded earlier in the week with the four "big" starting pitchers in the same room at the same time. He said the conversation was very interesting. They discussed Cito, Doc, and their hopes for 2011. Half will be shown on the pre-game show Saturday, and the second part Sunday. Set your PVR's.

Did anyone happen to catch this? I hoped to, but was unfortunately otherwise engaged and missed the first part. I'll try to catch the second part tomorrow.

Gerry - Saturday, September 25 2010 @ 11:16 PM EDT (#223026) #

I recorded it earlier and watched it this evening.  Some of the pitchers admitted they were intimidated by Roy Halladay, that they were afraid to speak up and risk getting in Roy's bad books.  They talked about how they hang out together.  Brett Cecil seemed to be the one who gets picked on a lot.

Tomorrow's episode is on the new Sportsnet and they talk Cito and what they want in a new manager.  Some of their quotes in that regard, that were shown as a teaser today, could be interpreted as shots at Cito.

 

bpoz - Sunday, September 26 2010 @ 09:37 AM EDT (#223027) #
I love listening and talking about our BIG 4. I cannot wait to hear the various opinions by BB contributers on this presentation by Jamie Campbell.
ayjackson - Sunday, September 26 2010 @ 11:54 AM EDT (#223030) #

I have some questions on HR/FB % for anybody in the know.  What is the mean rate for pitchers?  Does it follow the normal distribution?  If not what is the percentage falling within one standard deviation?  Two standard deviations?

Also, is the only difference between FIP and xFIP the normalization of HR/FB %?

 

Jonny German - Sunday, September 26 2010 @ 12:59 PM EDT (#223031) #
Hey dinosaurs, the interview is available on sportsnet.ca:

http://www.sportsnet.ca/video/36651949001/40415880001/Jays-rotation-exclusive-Pt1

http://www.sportsnet.ca/video/36651949001/40415880001/Jays-rotation-exclusive-Pt2
Mike Green - Sunday, September 26 2010 @ 10:02 PM EDT (#223045) #
HR/FB over a  pitcher's career is more tightly wound around league average than the normal distribution.  You just don't see pitchers with HR/FBs of 5% or 16% over a career.  There may not be anyone with a HR/FB lower than 7% after 1000 IP- no that's wrong, I checked and Mariano Rivera's career HR/FB is 6.3% and I'd bet that his is the lowest for any pitcher after the deadball era. 

It would be possible to incorporate batted ball data other than HR/FB into xFIP, but my understanding is that usually is not done this way.  Fangraphs uses, I understand, the THT version, which just adjusts for HR/FB.


Magpie - Sunday, September 26 2010 @ 10:54 PM EDT (#223052) #
Kasi, we are aware that the banner needs to be changed. I think we've decided to wait until the offseason

And hopefully one of us will bump into someone who knows how to change it. I don't have a clue, myself. Not even the faintest idea...
TamRa - Monday, September 27 2010 @ 12:45 AM EDT (#223062) #
Hey dinosaurs, the interview is available on sportsnet.ca:

http://www.sportsnet.ca/video/36651949001/40415880001/Jays-rotation-exclusive-Pt1

http://www.sportsnet.ca/video/36651949001/40415880001/Jays-rotation-exclusive-Pt2


THANKS!

I'm really developing quite the unhealthy affection for these guys, I love the Braves comparison...

Marcum  - Maddux
Romero - Glavine
Morrow - Smoltz
Cecil - Avery? Have to hope that Cecil holds it together longer...

Of course Marcum isn't in Maddux's league (no one is in terms of what he did with what he had to work with), but a similar skill set and style.

But I digress...

Looking ahead, the cold rational part of me says "trade Marcum next winter to make room for Stewart (or whoever) but emotionally, I do like the idea of several years of the same 4-5 guys going out there and building a legacy.

Things like that make me feel for a GM
DiscoDave - Monday, September 27 2010 @ 10:45 AM EDT (#223081) #
And how much would trading the ring leader mess with the heads of the other 3?
Flex - Monday, September 27 2010 @ 10:47 AM EDT (#223083) #
I believe that what Marcum brings as a leader for this group is as important as what he brings as a pitcher.

I also think that what Marcum and Romero have to say on that second video clip about the kind of manager they'd like next year needs a little more comment here. Even though Romero says they're "not trying to knock on Cito's style" (if I'm remembering the quote correctly), it seems to be a direct knock. They want more small ball. They want more aggressive attempts to generate scoring, specifically citing Ozzie Guillen a few times. They want somebody to get on guys who aren't hustling, as opposed to Cito who's more laid back and just "lets guys play."

It will be interesting to see if this becomes a source of comment or conflict in the clubhouse over the last few days of the season. I'm frankly surprised Jamie Campbell was able to generate something with this potential for controversy.
ayjackson - Monday, September 27 2010 @ 10:53 AM EDT (#223084) #

I don't want to see that fearsome foursome broken up.  They seem very cohesive and I think it would be a mistake to trade their leader.

Mick Doherty - Monday, September 27 2010 @ 11:16 AM EDT (#223088) #

It's not really fair to talk about the young Braves arms and include Maddux -- he was the best pitcher in baseball as a Cub and joined the Braves, already recognized as the best rotation in baseball, per Glavine-Smoltz-Avery. For an equivalent situation here, you'd have to take the best three of the current Jay crop, then front it by signing, I dunno, Cliff Lee or Jon Lester or Adam Wainwright or somesuch.

Just sayin'. Take Maddux out of the equation.

Magpie - Monday, September 27 2010 @ 12:06 PM EDT (#223101) #
You have to manage the team you have, not the team you'd like to have. The 2010 Jays have had the fewest baserunners of any team in the AL, even fewer than Seattle. (Remember an inordinate number of the guys who've reached base never ran the bases at all - they just kept trotting until they came home.)

Well, if you have a group of hitters who aren't very good at getting on base but better than anyone else at hitting for power, one thing you simply can't do is give away outs or lose those few baserunners you do have. Which is how it's played out - the 2010 Jays have lost just 36 outs to CS and SH. It's the lowest figure in the league. Nobody bunts less, and only the Red Sox have had fewer CS. The White Sox, meanwhile, have given away 122 outs in that fashion - they lead the league in both categories - and they've also hit into 34 more GDPs than the Jays. All this eliminates a lot of those extra baserunners.

Ozzie's got a completely different group of players, and he needs to do that. But it would be counter-productive with the Toronto lineup.
ayjackson - Monday, September 27 2010 @ 12:16 PM EDT (#223106) #

And the pitchers pointed that out - that a lot of it comes down to players.  But still there are situations where they probably would like to see more urgency (more than just yanking a reliever after he walks the first person he sees).  The hallmark case is having John MacD bat for himself in the 9th, down one with the winning run in scoring position and leaving Rolen on the bench because "a day off is a day off".  Nobody - probably not even JMac - appreciates that.

But all in all, the pitchers likely don't know what they're talking about when asked what kind of manager they should have.

China fan - Monday, September 27 2010 @ 12:32 PM EDT (#223112) #

...They want somebody to get on guys who aren't hustling....

I'd be curious to know specifically which players are being referred to.  Who was failing to hustle?  Maybe they are referring to Encarnacion, but the Jays did take action in his case -- he was demoted to the minors for a week or two, and seemed to improve when he came back.  Who else? 

On the "small ball" issue:  the presence of Yunel Escobar for a full season could help to improve the Jays performance on this front in 2011.  But a lot of "small ball" is simply getting runners on base, and this was heavily damaged by the pathetic performances of Aaron Hill and Adam Lind this year -- not to mention the low OBPs by Snider and Encarnacion.  Most of those could improve next year.  Also, I'd argue that the Jays now have a major asset in their SLG and HR skills and they shouldn't sacrifice all of that for OBP.  What's needed (and easier said than done) is to boost the OBP without sacrificing too much of the power.

If by "small ball" they are referring only to bunts, steals and sacrifices, it's hard to know who was guilty of this.  There were a few times when Gaston could have been more aggressive in using a pinch runner, but it wouldn't have made a huge difference.  Some players, such as Encarnacion, seemed remarkably poor at sacrificing runners ahead, but he might be gone next year anyway -- and there really wasn't a replacement available for him this year anyway.

Alex Obal - Monday, September 27 2010 @ 12:41 PM EDT (#223113) #
Once upon a time there was a team that finished 11th in OBP, 4th in homers, and 1st in sac bunts. They won the World Series. There was much rejoicing.

Smallball brings out the stupid in pitchers. As you have pointed out before. (Implicitly maybe.)

rtcaino - Monday, September 27 2010 @ 01:38 PM EDT (#223126) #

http://www.sportsnet.ca/video/36651949001/40415880001/Jays-rotation-exclusive-Pt1

http://www.sportsnet.ca/video/36651949001/40415880001/Jays-rotation-exclusive-Pt2

Anyone else find it kind of awkward when Romero was asked who should get the next extension?

He answered Marcum, and said they all want to be with the team long term. Marcum kind of fidgetted in his chair.

I wonder whether his camp and the team have discussed an extension? Also, I wonder whether it would have been his side, or the teams, that elected to wait it out.

TamRa - Monday, September 27 2010 @ 01:53 PM EDT (#223130) #

It's not really fair to talk about the young Braves arms and include Maddux -- he was the best pitcher in baseball as a Cub and joined the Braves, already recognized as the best rotation in baseball, per Glavine-Smoltz-Avery. For an equivalent situation here, you'd have to take the best three of the current Jay crop, then front it by signing, I dunno, Cliff Lee or Jon Lester or Adam Wainwright or somesuch.

Just sayin'. Take Maddux out of the equation.


Fair point, in that sense maybe you look to Oakland. 


Romero - Mulder

Marcum - Hudson

Morrow - Harden

Cecil - Zito


Not precise by any means, of course.

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